Author Topic: economical system .... tweaked?  (Read 5008 times)

Thoraion

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economical system .... tweaked?
« on: June 17, 2008, 04:30:33 PM »
i have the impression that the economics of crafting could use some tuning...
there's absolutely no market for bows or leather armour - so learning to craft is nothing else than an IC-hobby consuming large amounts of coin.
And even if sometime somebody buys a bow or a set of armour, the process of advancing in the craft means that a few hundred bows and sets of armour have been produces for the trash bin.
What to do with those? sell them to the merchants for a handfull of fang, that is even less than a template?
If one does, those products will never be sold, since those products are then available from the merchants at a ridiculously better price than their regular bows.
To me, it seems that crafting of wood and leather is nothing more than a way to spend money in a completely useless way - to reach a level at which one can compete with the masters means spending thousands of fang and days of real life time.
is that intended?
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k_moustakas

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2008, 04:43:22 PM »
don't let me get started on that again...

You're absolutely right by the way
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Nefensis

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2008, 05:03:11 PM »
I made a character especially to help crafters sell their best assets. Hook me up in game, we'll talk.

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ethinos

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2008, 06:48:01 PM »
All the crafts are basically money pits till you hit the high end, desired commodities. The crafts require the devotion of a lot of time and money before you get to that point.

With woodworking, the most sought after items are going to be the Steel arrows/bolts (which are consumables, so always in demand), and the white stag bows. So to say that there is no profit potential is a little strange.

Granted with leatherworking, there really isn't anything that great in the higher ends considering that better leather armor can either be purchased or found in loot elsewhere. Maybe with future improvements and additions, leatherworking will be more feasible.

The best paying craft has always been smithing, but to be honest, its also waaaaaay more costly to get good at it. Especially when you start needing to make steel full plates to get decent CXP. And I won't even touch on what it costs to level in Gilding. :shock:

Honestly, though, I've always viewed crafts as simple diversions for alternative play and roleplaying devices rather than actual professions for profit. You want to earn easier money? Raid a dungeon. Provide services. Kill rats.
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Rex

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2008, 06:53:28 PM »
Yeah pretty much what Ethinos said.  Not a big fan of the Economy of the server.  it's all Slopes and Plateu's, with nothing in the middle.  Stuff is either worth Nothing, or a Fortune in most cases.

Try selling a Steel Crossbow to Crawler once and then look at his markup.

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Taty

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2008, 08:11:41 PM »
It would be nice to see the -5 keen on bows gradually ease up to -4, -3 etc. I personally don't see how normal characters progress in bow making. I know when Liam and Grimshakle did it they could get big money for their bows. I myself can safely say I have put more than 50k into bow making. This is only possible because I am high selling Vardo and I expect it to be months before I ever see my money back.

I also do herbalism and the contrast is startling. Almost anyone can make a cure light potion and a few of them is worth more than an Ash long bow or a Yew composite which few people can make? 1 is actually worth more than any non composite bow.

 I understand not wanting players to get crazy rich on their bows, and encouraging player rp to sell but even a slight adjustment would be welcome. The way the current system is will discourage people from getting into it until the other established bow makers leave or die thus creating a demanding market. Between Liam and Ileanna its pretty hard for anyone else to sell a bow these days thus making new bow makers extremely challenged and rare. A template for a long composite bow is roughly 100sh fang.

If a way could be made to say lose money on beech, almost break even on yew and make a slight profit on ash the system would be more balanced and would still encourage players as the main customer. I can live with the current situation as it is but I can afford it, I would however say a change would be in the best interests of the community even if it isn't in mine.

Bad_Bud

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2008, 12:06:09 AM »
We only have an economy because the crafts are sucking away all the money.  On servers where there is nothing to buy and nothing to craft, money just piles up and inflates the server... ...except for scrolls.  Those are really expensive.


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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2008, 04:24:28 AM »
I imagine that a lot of the currently craftable items will be in much more demand once we have enchanting implemented.

However, it might be that it's time we phase out magical armour and weapons out of stores as well.

engelfire

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2008, 05:13:04 AM »
what kind of enchanting we are talking about btw ?

can you give us a vague direction what to expect ? like we enchant the crafted weapons and armors ? like maybe +2/ice/lighting damage ?
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Thoraion

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2008, 05:35:49 AM »
well, at least i also have a few suggestions to make:
NPC merchants should buy crafted items at a price above the template price - at least 10% beginning with the simplest materials seems fair enough. However, they should sell those items ABOVE the price of the normal, not crafted items. You might think about removing the normal weapons (NOT the most basic ones) from the shops altogether. As long as there are enough crafters, that should work...
I stick with my thesis that there is currently no profit in crafting - maybe except from smithing, but what conclusion are potential crafters to draw from that? If steel-tipped arrows are the way to go for bowyers - guess what you have just done wrong...

As far as i can see it, there is nearly no motivation to cooperate with other crafters - besides smiths... Since one can't get any money from the items crafted, there's also no way to pay others to go and get the required materials.
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engelfire

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2008, 05:45:57 AM »
we should let the normal weapons and armors be on the shops. if those would be removed and only crafted items are around... how would new to server lv 2 newb afford to buy anything with their massive 50 gold starter money ? they would have to run around for eternity with the default leather armor and short sword hehe, aaaand they would leave once they learn that they need around 5k to get basic equipment
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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2008, 07:36:52 AM »
we should let the normal weapons and armors be on the shops. if those would be removed and only crafted items are around... how would new to server lv 2 newb afford to buy anything with their massive 50 gold starter money ? they would have to run around for eternity with the default leather armor and short sword hehe, aaaand they would leave once they learn that they need around 5k to get basic equipment

That's part of why I wish there were more variety to what you could churn out with leatherworking.  I'm usually willing to let leather armor go much cheaper than a smith is going to sell even the cheapest chain shirt.  It would be a good interim step for a level or two until they could afford the metal armor, at least.  But once the newbies see that crafted leather armor is exactly the same as the default armor with at best only a small and (relatively) useless bonus, they'll pass.  Seriously -- can't even give the stuff away.  After weeks of real time spent in Aleksei's I was pretty horrified to find that within the server's economy, only curing has any profit potential.

Of course, I don't know that there's any actual solution that would make padded or leather armor interesting enough.  Maybe a way to reduce its weight or allow higher max AC bonus with "soft leather patches" or something.  I'm just bitter about all the fang spent on wax and tannin.   :)

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2008, 07:44:28 AM »
Dec team will sooner or later look at leather armour again...

I'd like to see the wieght reduction and over all +1 AC that steel armours have WITH an added MINOR additional bonus of additional leather patches that JUST work for leather that provide more options than cold or neg energy resistance... like white stag hide providing another +1 AC vs undead etc

And Otake, Wulfgang Eberhardt, Aesin, Humiko, Bonereaver, Anthrania + whatever concept I am playing with...

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2008, 08:27:55 AM »
well, at least i also have a few suggestions to make:
NPC merchants should buy crafted items at a price above the template price - at least 10% beginning with the simplest materials seems fair enough. However, they should sell those items ABOVE the price of the normal, not crafted items. You might think about removing the normal weapons (NOT the most basic ones) from the shops altogether. As long as there are enough crafters, that should work...
I stick with my thesis that there is currently no profit in crafting - maybe except from smithing, but what conclusion are potential crafters to draw from that? If steel-tipped arrows are the way to go for bowyers - guess what you have just done wrong...

As far as i can see it, there is nearly no motivation to cooperate with other crafters - besides smiths... Since one can't get any money from the items crafted, there's also no way to pay others to go and get the required materials.

Why would a merchant purchase crap merchandise which he cannot sell it for a profit? If your a crafter try to sell everything you make to PC's. You cannot. No one wants 50 bronze daggers or any other bronze weapons for that matter. Since there is no market for them merchants will not purchase them.

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2008, 10:32:40 AM »
we should let the normal weapons and armors be on the shops. if those would be removed and only crafted items are around... how would new to server lv 2 newb afford to buy anything with their massive 50 gold starter money ? they would have to run around for eternity with the default leather armor and short sword hehe, aaaand they would leave once they learn that they need around 5k to get basic equipment

I wholeheartedly agree.

ThAnswr

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2008, 12:07:18 PM »
we should let the normal weapons and armors be on the shops. if those would be removed and only crafted items are around... how would new to server lv 2 newb afford to buy anything with their massive 50 gold starter money ? they would have to run around for eternity with the default leather armor and short sword hehe, aaaand they would leave once they learn that they need around 5k to get basic equipment

I think the problem facing new player is not much they can't afford better equipment. I think the problem is there are very few apparent avenues they can pursue to party up with higher levels so they can earn the money.  It's the luck of the time  zone draw or other impediments. 

Maybe we need a Ravenloft welcome wagon.   :idea: 
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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2008, 12:23:38 PM »
i'm still of the opinon that there should be a lvl 2-3 area that only they can get to that would be a challenge for those of that lvl and tehy could lean about surivivng there and the land

ThAnswr

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2008, 12:40:20 PM »
i'm still of the opinon that there should be a lvl 2-3 area that only they can get to that would be a challenge for those of that lvl and tehy could lean about surivivng there and the land

Another good idea. Other servers, such as Forgotten Realms of Cormyr, have area level restrictions.  My Diablo server has waypoints by which you can't progress to another area until you've finished the quest and get the way point. You can go backwards, but generally players just make up a new char for that and pass the stuff on to their mule.  Or several mules in my case.   :mrgreen:

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Rex

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2008, 01:50:07 PM »
The removal of issue and static items brings up a problem.  Crafting system or no, a majority of people crafting are just doing it to hand out stuff to friends (a reason why a lot of servers restrict the number of trades one can "learn").  There is just not enough over lap to promote a real "crafters" functional economy, and even with all the crafters we HAVE, trying to find one to buy something, is a pain in the ass.

I'll Use HAZE as an example, for an interlocked crafting system.

Trades were Interlocked, and supported one another.  Except for Food/Brewing which was like an Insane sub culture all it's own.  Your Weapons Crafter Had to buy Molds and Tools from the Tinker, Bowyer has to buy Cat Cut or silk from the tanners and Tailors, Enchanters had to buy bottles from the Tinkers Tinkers, and tailors had to buy supplies and such from Gatherers (which by the way Gathering was a set of skills as well which determined how much you got out of a given resource).  So you had all these interlocked, massively detailed crafts (which kept people from Mastering Every one of them for the Most part with the exception of 2 people with absolutely no life what so ever). 

But what really made it functional, were the "Things".  Things were little contraptions that you could load up with your Material, set a price, park it somewhere, and people could buy the stuff, and you could go back and collect the money and restock it like a vending machine, in addition to having it follow you around and doing real open market with it.

Many servers have similar things from NPC merchants that will sell the stuff, up to static locations you "buy" from the server to use in a similar fashion as the Haze Thing (Aerilith is a good example of that actually).

Without some sort of Persistent selling tool like that, it's just not going to work.  You end up being Forced to have to deal with people and creatures you otherwise would have no reason to, and perhaps by proper RP background, would never WANT to.

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ethinos

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2008, 02:32:56 PM »
But everyone wants to buy goods from my dwarf. Everyone. Even silly Falks and looking-down-their-noses-while-chewing-dandelions elves.

The problem with making the crafts more interlocked, is that if we already have few enough crafters to adequately serve the populace, making those few crafters have to get together with others just means longer wait times (because crafters aren't all on at the same time), and probably way higher prices, because time is money.
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Rex

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2008, 03:01:44 PM »
But everyone wants to buy goods from my dwarf. Everyone. Even silly Falks and looking-down-their-noses-while-chewing-dandelions elves.

The problem with making the crafts more interlocked, is that if we already have few enough crafters to adequately serve the populace, making those few crafters have to get together with others just means longer wait times (because crafters aren't all on at the same time), and probably way higher prices, because time is money.

I may have to implement the Falkovnian method of making sure a Dwarf forges my material on time and in due course.  *Hands the Dwarf a Pair of manacles while he heats up a branding iron*  Here, put those on Ja like der Gute Zwerg.

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Thoraion

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2008, 04:47:45 AM »
But everyone wants to buy goods from my dwarf. Everyone. Even silly Falks and looking-down-their-noses-while-chewing-dandelions elves.

The problem with making the crafts more interlocked, is that if we already have few enough crafters to adequately serve the populace, making those few crafters have to get together with others just means longer wait times (because crafters aren't all on at the same time), and probably way higher prices, because time is money.

That can simply be solved if merchants can work as a trade hub. If they pay slightly below average and charge slightly above average for crafted items (finished ones and half-finished), it stays attractive to deal among players, but does not require them to actually be online.

What i learned is that a crafter selling finished items usually also does every step between raw materials and the finished product himself - classical jack of all trades.
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engelfire

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2008, 05:10:45 AM »
we could get like crafters house, where all the crafters in the land could focus their selling and buying. then when someone would need something they could walz in there and see whos there at the moment.

vardo of course is forbidden to enter and stick their greesy fingers into hard working crafters sale  :mrgreen:
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ethinos

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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2008, 05:12:33 AM »
Unfortunatey, for someone like Torgan, he rarely had a middleman. Sometimes one of the Vardo would order stuff through him, having already taken orders (knowing Torgan could and would make the item in a reasonable time period), but most of his customers were repeat customers and direct.

The hub doesn't always work, because after you know who makes the stuff, you'll usually wait for them to pop up to pay the lower prices.

Most crafters do the entire process because waiting for others and depending on others to complete the crafted items becomes extremely time consuming and frustrating.

The only things I've really seen ever that actually involves two crafters usually are steel arrows/bolts, because smithing steel is a tough deal and so is making steel arrows. Steel crossbows are the occasional other item. Often a smith and woodworker will work together.

As for the crafters house, again, not all the crafters are ever on at the same time, if even any. There really would need to be a static NPC merchant to make sure wares were available for sale at all times. As for the Vardo? Yeah, like they can resist keeping their hands out of the cookie jar... :?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 05:14:10 AM by ethinos »
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Re: economical system .... tweaked?
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2008, 10:19:05 AM »
It's a shame that PC-vendor shops can't be setup like in some MMOs.  Even if it were possible, I imagine server crashes/resets would become quickly bothersome with this sort of system.

The way Nef's set up her new character is really wonderful for the crafters, at least.