Author Topic: Undeath to Death  (Read 8368 times)

Rex

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2008, 01:19:01 PM »
I'm all for things being in line with a book, but there has been a rash of nerfs lately with no quid pro quo.  That's a topic for something else though and I don't want to get off track here.
As I am aware, this takes the spell closer to the official DnD rules:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undeathToDeath.htm

The problem with the spell was that Bioware had made it excessively powerful, and in a setting as Ravenloft where basicly every other foe is undead, this wasn't very balanced. It also posed a major balance issue toward undead PCs in PvP.

Since that portion, seems to be the major issue, I'm not that big of a fan of this particular nerfing.  If it's a balance issue, where is the balance on the Other side of the topic?

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Fallen

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2008, 01:23:49 PM »
This is just so wrong ...

About the nerfing or my opinion? 

Nerfing Undeath to Death brings this spell in line with every nerf that has happened here.  No great surprise here.  Sooner or later, everyone's favorite will be nerfed.  It's just the way it is and it can either be accepted or one moves on.   Strange as that may seem coming from me, but it is consistant. 

As far as my opinion regarding POTM being an RP server, it's my opinon and I'm sticking to it.   :mrgreen:

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Khuzadrepa

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2008, 04:00:10 PM »
This isn't a nerf.  This is fixing what Bioware broke.

I support this fully, and have to give a pat on the back to the admin team for it.
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Rex

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2008, 11:00:12 PM »
This isn't a nerf.  This is fixing what Bioware broke.

I support this fully, and have to give a pat on the back to the admin team for it.

And I'm cool with fixing something that's broke.  Bioware obviously shortbused a lot of things.  But if it's a balance issue, Is there going to be some balance addressed for the other side of the issue?

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Fieryhates

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2008, 07:44:46 AM »
This isn't a nerf.  This is fixing what Bioware broke.

I support this fully, and have to give a pat on the back to the admin team for it.

And I'm cool with fixing something that's broke.  Bioware obviously shortbused a lot of things.  But if it's a balance issue, Is there going to be some balance addressed for the other side of the issue?

~Rex


Don't think you have to say that twice to get your point across.  ;)

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2008, 09:21:59 AM »
Sometimes its more than twice before its heard... :lol:

And Otake, Wulfgang Eberhardt, Aesin, Humiko, Bonereaver, Anthrania + whatever concept I am playing with...

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2008, 10:56:27 AM »
Just have to bare in mind that there's tons of things that have been shifted to reflect PnP rules, but the problem is that since everything in PnP followed the exact same rule-set, there was balance.

When you have half the abilities/skills/spells reflecting PnP while the other half still utilizes NWN's own rule-set, then you have a lot of potential misbalance.  Yes, the game was imbalanced for Multiplayer, but basing everything off PnP is going to create a whole new imbalance.

ThAnswr

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2008, 11:49:34 AM »
Just have to bare in mind that there's tons of things that have been shifted to reflect PnP rules, but the problem is that since everything in PnP followed the exact same rule-set, there was balance.

When you have half the abilities/skills/spells reflecting PnP while the other half still utilizes NWN's own rule-set, then you have a lot of potential misbalance.  Yes, the game was imbalanced for Multiplayer, but basing everything off PnP is going to create a whole new imbalance.

Maybe this is OT, but this is my biggest beef with spell nerfs:  You take a feat such as "Maximize Spell" when the duration is "1 hour per level".  Please, no arguing as to whether or not that is "too powerful" because it was what it was when the feat was taken. 

So what happens?  The spell gets nerfed to "1 turn + 1 turn per level" and your game changes.  At that point, "Extend Spell" would've been the smarter feat choice, but unfortunately, many can't see into the future.  Bottom line:  You're screwed and you can't change it.  Please no arguing that "1 turn + 1 turn per level" is a long time.  That's not what the spell was when the feat was taken. 

I really think, when a spell is nerfed, the option should be given to relevel.  It's not out of the realm of possibilities.  There are servers where you can relevel automatically just by talking to an NPC and clicking on "relevel.

Sometimes, you just want to adjust your game to reflect what's happening around you.  And that option doesn't exist after spell nerfs here.  It's frustrating. 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 11:52:37 AM by ThAnswr »
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Rex

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2008, 02:23:37 PM »
Just have to bare in mind that there's tons of things that have been shifted to reflect PnP rules, but the problem is that since everything in PnP followed the exact same rule-set, there was balance.

When you have half the abilities/skills/spells reflecting PnP while the other half still utilizes NWN's own rule-set, then you have a lot of potential misbalance.  Yes, the game was imbalanced for Multiplayer, but basing everything off PnP is going to create a whole new imbalance.

Maybe this is OT, but this is my biggest beef with spell nerfs:  You take a feat such as "Maximize Spell" when the duration is "1 hour per level".  Please, no arguing as to whether or not that is "too powerful" because it was what it was when the feat was taken. 

So what happens?  The spell gets nerfed to "1 turn + 1 turn per level" and your game changes.  At that point, "Extend Spell" would've been the smarter feat choice, but unfortunately, many can't see into the future.  Bottom line:  You're screwed and you can't change it.  Please no arguing that "1 turn + 1 turn per level" is a long time.  That's not what the spell was when the feat was taken. 

I really think, when a spell is nerfed, the option should be given to relevel.  It's not out of the realm of possibilities.  There are servers where you can relevel automatically just by talking to an NPC and clicking on "relevel.

Sometimes, you just want to adjust your game to reflect what's happening around you.  And that option doesn't exist after spell nerfs here.  It's frustrating. 

True that, and not very hard to do from the looks of it, at least so I am told by computer savy people.

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ethinos

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2008, 03:15:13 PM »
If you have a valid reason for a relevel, I'm pretty sure the DM's will accomodate you. It's never been forbidden.
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Khuzadrepa

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2008, 02:14:11 PM »
I really think, when a spell is nerfed, the option should be given to relevel.
I think this is fair.
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Ruxandra

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2008, 01:19:24 AM »
Maybe this is OT, but this is my biggest beef with spell nerfs:  You take a feat such as "Maximize Spell" when the duration is "1 hour per level".  Please, no arguing as to whether or not that is "too powerful" because it was what it was when the feat was taken.

It's debatable honestly. Demiplanes, unlike other full-fledged planes can indeed change their metaphysical and even (though horribly rare) physical laws so that magic, physics and other "realities" in them flux and change do to whim of the originator of the plane or planar occurances.

What you're asking for, while understandably reasonable to want to change, is also the equivalent of a warrior-type character asking for releveling to change his feats because a new batch of monsters was added in a recent module addition that they'd like to fight, or they found a newly created item or weapon they want to use. After all, no one bats an eye when someone marries themselves to an awful weapon (like say a light hammer) and finds out light hammers are woefully awful or lacking on this module.

Given there are a good many "extra" feats added to the level-up scheme and just because one spell was changed doesn't mean the entire metafeat is useless at all (no metafeat works on only *one* spell after all), I'd probably suggest only considering it if said character was at it's maximum level honestly. The world changes and goes on, so long as a character has the potential to adapt (level up, gain new feats), I don't see any reason why they should suddenly wake up one morning forgetting how to get the most out of a spell and instead extending it as if knowing such an ability never happened.
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Rex

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2008, 01:07:38 PM »
Yeah that's actually been delt with before in many settings (When DnD editions changed, many casters were WTF?  Darn this used to work), and it gets handled.  They don't just POOF, never knew it not effected by it.

Now Stat and feat changes maybe I can see a rebuild, Like you dumped 15 points into craft armor and the server took it away because they implemented a CNR type system, that's a rebuild case.

Spell not so much.

I don't mind it that much that this is getting shunted off into by the book levels, by the book is always fine by me, but there needs to be some quid pro quo if that's going to be the main reason.

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Bad_Bud

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2008, 03:34:10 PM »
Maybe this is OT, but this is my biggest beef with spell nerfs:  You take a feat such as "Maximize Spell" when the duration is "1 hour per level".  Please, no arguing as to whether or not that is "too powerful" because it was what it was when the feat was taken.

It's debatable honestly. Demiplanes, unlike other full-fledged planes can indeed change their metaphysical and even (though horribly rare) physical laws so that magic, physics and other "realities" in them flux and change do to whim of the originator of the plane or planar occurances.

What you're asking for, while understandably reasonable to want to change, is also the equivalent of a warrior-type character asking for releveling to change his feats because a new batch of monsters was added in a recent module addition that they'd like to fight, or they found a newly created item or weapon they want to use. After all, no one bats an eye when someone marries themselves to an awful weapon (like say a light hammer) and finds out light hammers are woefully awful or lacking on this module.

Given there are a good many "extra" feats added to the level-up scheme and just because one spell was changed doesn't mean the entire metafeat is useless at all (no metafeat works on only *one* spell after all), I'd probably suggest only considering it if said character was at it's maximum level honestly. The world changes and goes on, so long as a character has the potential to adapt (level up, gain new feats), I don't see any reason why they should suddenly wake up one morning forgetting how to get the most out of a spell and instead extending it as if knowing such an ability never happened.

I don't think that's a fair comparison.


ThAnswr

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2008, 03:57:11 PM »
Maybe this is OT, but this is my biggest beef with spell nerfs:  You take a feat such as "Maximize Spell" when the duration is "1 hour per level".  Please, no arguing as to whether or not that is "too powerful" because it was what it was when the feat was taken.

It's debatable honestly. Demiplanes, unlike other full-fledged planes can indeed change their metaphysical and even (though horribly rare) physical laws so that magic, physics and other "realities" in them flux and change do to whim of the originator of the plane or planar occurances.

What you're asking for, while understandably reasonable to want to change, is also the equivalent of a warrior-type character asking for releveling to change his feats because a new batch of monsters was added in a recent module addition that they'd like to fight, or they found a newly created item or weapon they want to use. After all, no one bats an eye when someone marries themselves to an awful weapon (like say a light hammer) and finds out light hammers are woefully awful or lacking on this module.

Given there are a good many "extra" feats added to the level-up scheme and just because one spell was changed doesn't mean the entire metafeat is useless at all (no metafeat works on only *one* spell after all), I'd probably suggest only considering it if said character was at it's maximum level honestly. The world changes and goes on, so long as a character has the potential to adapt (level up, gain new feats), I don't see any reason why they should suddenly wake up one morning forgetting how to get the most out of a spell and instead extending it as if knowing such an ability never happened.

I don't think that's a fair comparison.

It isn't, but I'm used to being marginalized.   :lol: 
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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2008, 04:52:06 PM »
Please, no one play the Martyr here. It's irritating.

And for the record, MAXIMIZE increases ALL aspects of a spell, including length.

Rebuilding wizards around spells is a goddamned nightmare, because DM's have no way of knowing what your actual spellbook is, and we have to supply a boatload of scrolls based only on your "say" of what you had. Relevels just to change spells have been declined in the past, but -every- Relevel request is based on a case by case basis and you lose nothing by requesting it.

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2008, 05:13:51 PM »
Please, no one play the Martyr here. It's irritating.

Gee, I'm sorry.  :lol:

And for the record, MAXIMIZE increases ALL aspects of a spell, including length.

Really? Are you sure you're not confusing "Maximize Spell" with "Extend Spell"?

This is "Maximize Spell":

Quote
Type of Feat: Metamagic

Prerequisite: Cast 3rd-level spells

Specifics: Maximized spells apply all variable numeric effects, including damage, number of targets, and so on, at their maximum values.

Use: A maximized spell occupies a spell slot three levels higher than normal. Saving throws and opposed rolls, such as those made when dispel magic is cast, are not affected.


This is "Extend Spell":

Quote
Type of feat: Metamagic

Prerequisite: Cast 1st-level spells

Specifics: Extended spells have their duration doubled, lasting twice as long as normal.

Use: An extended spell occupies a spell slot one level higher than normal. Spells with a duration of instantaneous or permanent are not affected.


http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Feats

I believe you are confusing the two.  If a spell lasts, for example 1-hr per level, that's what it lasts unless you take the "Extend" feat. 

If that information is wrong, someone please point it out to me. 


Rebuilding wizards around spells is a goddamned nightmare, because DM's have no way of knowing what your actual spellbook is, and we have to supply a boatload of scrolls based only on your "say" of what you had. Relevels just to change spells have been declined in the past, but -every- Relevel request is based on a case by case basis and you lose nothing by requesting it.


Again, gee I'm sorry.   :lol:
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 05:29:33 PM by ThAnswr »
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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2008, 05:22:22 PM »
NWN won't let you maximize spells with a duration (and no dice values).  Mage armor, for instance, you can't maximize, but you can extend.


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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2008, 05:31:46 PM »
Please, no one play the Martyr here. It's irritating.

And for the record, MAXIMIZE increases ALL aspects of a spell, including length.

Rebuilding wizards around spells is a goddamned nightmare, because DM's have no way of knowing what your actual spellbook is, and we have to supply a boatload of scrolls based only on your "say" of what you had. Relevels just to change spells have been declined in the past, but -every- Relevel request is based on a case by case basis and you lose nothing by requesting it.

As for rebuild a wizzy class, why the  we need to rebuild it if they nerf the spell? we can practically learn every wizzy spell out there just pick other spell into the spell slot and that that.

As for Sorc class, just pick a different one upon leveling or releveling 1 level.

Max spell do not increase duration only the max damage in regard of caster level. a fire ball 1d6  per level till 10 level caster meaning the max fire ball do 60 spell damage and 30 damage if target saves agaist the spell.


ThAnswr

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2008, 05:56:11 PM »
Please, no one play the Martyr here. It's irritating.

And for the record, MAXIMIZE increases ALL aspects of a spell, including length.

Rebuilding wizards around spells is a goddamned nightmare, because DM's have no way of knowing what your actual spellbook is, and we have to supply a boatload of scrolls based only on your "say" of what you had. Relevels just to change spells have been declined in the past, but -every- Relevel request is based on a case by case basis and you lose nothing by requesting it.

As for rebuild a wizzy class, why the  we need to rebuild it if they nerf the spell? we can practically learn every wizzy spell out there just pick other spell into the spell slot and that that.

As for Sorc class, just pick a different one upon leveling or releveling 1 level.

Max spell do not increase duration only the max damage in regard of caster level. a fire ball 1d6  per level till 10 level caster meaning the max fire ball do 60 spell damage and 30 damage if target saves agaist the spell.



This thread is going waaay OT. But to clarify why I think there should be the option of releveling if a spell is nerf'ed is NOT for the spell, but for the feat, specifically buff spells. 

I'm not a technical kind of person, but I play on another server where you can choose to relevel without a DM's help.  Don't like your weapon focus ........ change it.  Wish you had taken Great Fortitude instead of Great whatever ................ change it.  Just talk to the nice NPC lady and tell her you want to relevel ........... voila!  No one questions it and no one cares because one of the big rules on that server is:  Don't tell someone else how they "should" play their game.   

I am now leaving the soapbox.   :mrgreen:

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ethinos

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2008, 06:33:35 PM »
Again, who said the option of releveling wasn't an option, ThAnswr?
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ThAnswr

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2008, 07:32:42 PM »
Again, who said the option of releveling wasn't an option, ThAnswr?

Of course, anyone can apply for a relevel which may or may NOT be approved.  Who said they couldn't?

My point is rules get changed, spells get nerf'ed, but never is the option of releveling given.  Not asked for, given.   That is the point. 

I think an automatic releveling option after a rule change or spell nerf is an issue that should be brought before the Community Council because it is not just a personal issue, but affects the community at large. 
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ethinos

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2008, 07:48:41 PM »
At the same time, modifications to monstrous templates, the rest/death systems, updated patches from Bioware, updated haks from the Devs, and who knows how many other things could cause a current PC to be less effective than it was before.

If a player really considers that a nerf, change, or modificiation has been serious enough that it warrants a rebuild/relevel, I'm sure the folks that handle those applications will be considerate and reasonable.

Sometimes players need to take some personal initiative.
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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2008, 08:16:55 PM »
At the same time, modifications to monstrous templates, the rest/death systems, updated patches from Bioware, updated haks from the Devs, and who knows how many other things could cause a current PC to be less effective than it was before.

If a player really considers that a nerf, change, or modificiation has been serious enough that it warrants a rebuild/relevel, I'm sure the folks that handle those applications will be considerate and reasonable.

Sometimes players need to take some personal initiative.

This is not a personal issue nor is it one of personal initiative.  It is a community issue as rule changes and spell nerfs affects the community.  Granted, some more than others.  And since I believe it is a community issue, I will bring it before the Community Council. 

Having said that, I believe this horse is not only dead, but has been beaten into unrecognizable pulp. 
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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2008, 08:18:32 PM »
Send me the PM and I'll post it on the Council boards for review.
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