Author Topic: Undeath to Death  (Read 8374 times)

tzaeru

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Undeath to Death
« on: June 10, 2008, 01:27:55 PM »
Why was this spell altered in such a drastic way? (Many many PCs are past level 9. I'd say that -every- non-PC undead you'd fight at the time you get this spell are over level 9.)

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Undeath to Death
Spell Level: Cleric 6, Wizard / Sorcerer 6
Innate Level: 6
School: Necromancy
Component(s): Verbal, Somatic
Range: Medium
Save: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
Area of Effect/Target: Colossal
Duration: Instantaneous
Description: This spell slays 1d4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level (maximum 20d4). Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first; among creatures with equal HD, those closest to the point of origin of the burst are affected first. Creatures with 9 or more hit dice are unaffected.

I can understand that it's a bit overpowered for being a level 6 spell especially when comparing to Circle of Death, also a level 6 spell aimed at living creatures but now for wizards and sorcerers, only one undead-only spell remains (control undead) while there are like over 10 non-undead spells. (FoD, Hold Monster, Hold Person, Confusion, Fear, Weird, Phantasmal Killer, Wail Of The Banshee, Power Word: Kill, Dominate Person, Dominate Monster, Energy Drain and so on..)

In my opinion this is horribly unbalancing for wizards and sorcerers. If it really is considered too powerful to be left like it is in NWN, then make it level 7 or make it work against a single target only.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 01:29:34 PM by tzaeru »

Rex

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2008, 02:05:55 PM »
Considering this is one of the FEW anti Undead spells, and nearly EVERY other useful Cleric Spell has been Nerfed and Nerfed badly (Even the Light spells are Nerfed) this is a terrible terrible thing to do to the clerics.


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DM Shadowspawn

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2008, 02:11:27 PM »
Not agreeing or disagreeing but it leaves (for wizards) with Sunburst as best undead killing spell. I think it's lvl 8 spell.

tzaeru

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2008, 02:15:12 PM »
Not agreeing or disagreeing but it leaves (for wizards) with Sunburst as best undead killing spell. I think it's lvl 8 spell.

1d6 damage per level to undead (totally not worth it for a level 8 spell. Horrid does 1d8 per level and works vs. -everyone-) and kills all vampires if they fail their reflex save. So, got one anti-undead spell aside of control undead and it only works vs. vampires -and- is level 8..

EDIT, forgot to say it's 1d6 per level x-d

EDIT, and forgot more things - it also blinds all enemies if they fail reflex saving throw. Maybe not all useless spell. But still doesn't make the situation very balanced.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 02:31:11 PM by tzaeru »

Rex

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2008, 02:26:51 PM »
If someone wants to know what I really wanted to post, I'll PM it.  Send request.

Also, Reflex save spells are kinda turdish against things with evasion and or massive save levels.  Still an awesome spell.  It's 8th level.  Seriously ALL an undead has to do to protect itself from Undeath to Death, is have some zombie or Skeleton minions around.  No need to Nerf it. 

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deDani

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2008, 04:49:01 PM »
Those poor helpless wizards...
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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2008, 04:53:17 PM »
Those poor helpless wizards...

 :lol:


ethinos

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2008, 04:54:34 PM »
They changed the spell so that it matches the PnP equivelant. I don't see the problem. Perhaps the NWN version was simply too powerful to begin with.
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tzaeru

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2008, 04:58:00 PM »
They changed the spell so that it matches the PnP equivelant. I don't see the problem. Perhaps the NWN version was simply too powerful to begin with.

It was the only universal undead fighting spell aside of Control Undead. That's the problem I see.

ethinos

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2008, 05:04:25 PM »
Adapt. Overcome. :thumbup:
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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2008, 05:11:49 PM »
... I don't even notice a change.  It still does a will-save check and still kills the strongest undead NPCs in the server.  I've tested it.

tzaeru

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2008, 05:25:03 PM »
Adapt. Overcome. :thumbup:

Make a topic that states the (possible) issues about the subject . Hope for a change. Then adjust if have to and be cranky about the subject for rest of your life.

... I don't even notice a change.  It still does a will-save check and still kills the strongest undead NPCs in the server.  I've tested it.

Ooh..  :o Well. That's not what EO says, haven't yet tried testing it myself though.

Rex

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2008, 05:35:49 PM »
Adapt. Overcome. :thumbup:

If we are talking PnP Equivalents then give me the PnP gear to Adapt and Overcome.  If we're going to weaken NwN material to PnP levels (and let's face it most of the time that's a good thing) Then let's apply some PnP weakness's to those critters as well.

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ethinos

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2008, 06:00:50 PM »
Stuff

Since when have you ever supported the caster's side of the nerfing of spells? :shock:

I see that this being Ravenloft, a lot of the NPC bosses are undead. This nerf simply eliminates one-hit-kills on those said bosses. This spell still has a very (un)healthy effect on large groups of undead. I know of lots of groups that go and cream folks like the Lich handily without resorting to using insta-kill spells.

The biggest effect I see that this does is eliminates high level casters from soloing certain dungeons without breaking a sweat.
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kenpen

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2008, 06:18:21 PM »
Stuff

Since when have you ever supported the caster's side of the nerfing of spells? :shock:

I see that this being Ravenloft, a lot of the NPC bosses are undead. This nerf simply eliminates one-hit-kills on those said bosses. This spell still has a very (un)healthy effect on large groups of undead. I know of lots of groups that go and cream folks like the Lich handily without resorting to using insta-kill spells.

The biggest effect I see that this does is eliminates high level casters from soloing certain dungeons without breaking a sweat.

We were using it to pwn the ice queen quite regular. Morodin could insta-kill her something like, 1/3 of the time. ;)

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2008, 08:33:57 PM »
The biggest effect I see that this does is eliminates high level casters from soloing certain dungeons without breaking a sweat.

Biggest misconception of playing casters (wizards especially):  Nuke spells = 1337.  They do not.  My level 19 wizard can only cast about 10 undeaths to deaths (That's me using regulars, empowered, and maximized).  I'd much rather turn all those undeath to deaths into buff spells and summon spells to actually make a fight carry over to more than one battle (If we're going to talk about soloing).

The logic behind nerfing undeath to death is flawed, since I can easily use the same argument on a lot of our favorite "I win spells" (assuming they fail saves):  Hammer of the Gods, Wail of the Banshee, Finger of Death, Mass-Heal (vs. undead), Lay On Hands (vs. undead), etc.  I could go on listening "I win spells" for hours.

Making it based on HD is more or less going to just make the designated spellcaster go "All right, time to use the next big spell."

And let's face it, even with it being nerfed to being based on HD, it's stilll going to dominate all the undead PCs, becuase of the fact that most undead PCs don't even have the HD to survive the blast, based on the fact that most of our undead are between levels 5-15.  So, so much for creating balance between a caster with an undead-slayer and an undead.

ThAnswr

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2008, 11:01:22 PM »
Considering this is one of the FEW anti Undead spells, and nearly EVERY other useful Cleric Spell has been Nerfed and Nerfed badly (Even the Light spells are Nerfed) this is a terrible terrible thing to do to the clerics.


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Huh?  Rex, you feeling all right?   :lol:

Here's how I handle the spell nerfs:   When I want RP, and only RP, I log on to POTM.  When I want adventure, and only adventure,  I log on to Diablo.  Problem solved. 

Every spell nerf here has taken POTM more and more away from NWN and it's balance between RP and adventure.  This is not an adventurer's server.  End of story. 
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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2008, 02:09:05 AM »
This is just so wrong ...

failed.bard

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2008, 07:33:18 AM »
  My take on the nerfing was that it brought it in line with the effects of circle of death, which I'm pretty sure has a 9 HD/level cut off as well.

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2008, 09:20:44 AM »
As I am aware, this takes the spell closer to the official DnD rules:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undeathToDeath.htm

The problem with the spell was that Bioware had made it excessively powerful, and in a setting as Ravenloft where basicly every other foe is undead, this wasn't very balanced. It also posed a major balance issue toward undead PCs in PvP.

ThAnswr

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2008, 09:22:30 AM »
This is just so wrong ...

About the nerfing or my opinion? 

Nerfing Undeath to Death brings this spell in line with every nerf that has happened here.  No great surprise here.  Sooner or later, everyone's favorite will be nerfed.  It's just the way it is and it can either be accepted or one moves on.   Strange as that may seem coming from me, but it is consistant. 

As far as my opinion regarding POTM being an RP server, it's my opinon and I'm sticking to it.   :mrgreen:
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 09:30:23 AM by ThAnswr »
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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2008, 09:35:09 AM »
Implementing some kind of levelcap ain't too bad. My high level necro cleric can toss out an empowered undeath to death that would force 1d4*16*1.5=24-96 HD worth of undead to save or die at a DC 30+ will save. That would probably wipe out the majority of the undead faction, should they ever be caught gathering in a single place.


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ThAnswr

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2008, 02:34:17 PM »
Implementing some kind of levelcap ain't too bad. My high level necro cleric can toss out an empowered undeath to death that would force 1d4*16*1.5=24-96 HD worth of undead to save or die at a DC 30+ will save. That would probably wipe out the majority of the undead faction, should they ever be caught gathering in a single place.


Maybe the message should be choose your enemies and tactics wisely.   ;)
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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2008, 03:59:24 AM »
  My take on the nerfing was that it brought it in line with the effects of circle of death, which I'm pretty sure has a 9 HD/level cut off as well.

That it does.

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Re: Undeath to Death
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2008, 12:59:04 PM »
I'm new to the server but from what I've read regarding the spell changes they seem to be inline with other adjustments I've seen.