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Bug Reports / Web cancelling invisibility.

« Last post by Anarcoplayba on Today at 12:05:56 AM »

Not sure it this is a bug, but I see that when I cast web, the reflex save of the enemies count as an attack and cancels my invisibility. Is it intentional or a bug?

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Module Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better

« Last post by Pav on Today at 12:04:56 AM »

On a general scope, these are my feelings on experience.

I have always personally been of the belief that spawn timers and the XP cap are things that will not affect how long I spend roleplaying and how long I spend dungeoning. If I want to go get experience points, I will, and if I want to roleplay, I will. While this can be taken to mean that things are fine as it is, it is more of an argument against the required time investment.

I do not have the time I once did to play this game. I have other hobbies, lots of time spent at University and other real life commitments (yes, even during the pandemic). I am sure others are in similar situations, and while what they feel about the amount of time they need to spend on this game to get anywhere might differ from what I feel, I believe that it is overall better to allow people to get higher levels faster. It creates higher character turnover, and less feelings of attachment to months and years spent facilitating a character's mechanical progression. People will become more inclined to involve themselves in storylines that could lead to potential character closure. That's my hypothesis, anyway.

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Module Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better

« Last post by Phantasia on October 16, 2021, 11:39:51 PM »

Lower CL and cap in general means less buffs to go around, means "mundane" characters become that much more important and sub roles increase with a need for more diverse tactics, as does a need to spread the spells available, instead of hyper-buffing one person in your party to carry (an unfortunate side effect of accessible potions/spells in great number).

I don't think we'll be seeing a blanket level cap reduction any time soon if ever though lol.

Along with appropriate XP changes and dungeon rebalancing/tweaks, it could solve a lot of issues of the hyper-carry style and low group numbers.

Tl;dr you just don't need to bring more than is necessary (2-3 in many, many cases) due to spell wealth and dungeon design.

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Module Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better

« Last post by SardineTheAncestor on October 16, 2021, 11:29:39 PM »

I think it's pretty relevant. I touched on that but didn't cover it properly in my posts here. It's been said before that casters can get into any group they want to, whereas martials have to hope there's room for them. I think a lower level cap would help, at least vaguely. It's possible to solo at or before 14, but it only becomes more and more possible as the levels get higher. We know most of it is casters since they don't typically have to spend any resources. We also know those casters could be seeking out groups instead of soloing.

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Module Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better

« Last post by Evendur on October 16, 2021, 11:13:08 PM »

I also strongly disagree with this. It sounds a lot like coming from a caster player since those can literally solo most of the server at lvl 15

Quite the assumption. I have never soloed anything at level 15+ on a caster character that a level 10 martial couldn't do with a few potions or a gun. It's not my playstyle and I actively avoid it. I'm a party player and I build support characters. I seek out and/or create parties.

Im sorry if that came across as too personal. Its honestly my own observation as well, Leveling a frontliner took forever while a playing a caster feels extremely easy and fast in comparison. But thats another topic.

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Module Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better

« Last post by SardineTheAncestor on October 16, 2021, 10:48:17 PM »

I also strongly disagree with this. It sounds a lot like coming from a caster player since those can literally solo most of the server at lvl 15

Quite the assumption. I have never soloed anything at level 15+ on a caster character that a level 10 martial couldn't do with a few potions or a gun. It's not my playstyle and I actively avoid it. I'm a party player and I build support characters. I seek out and/or create parties.

I'm aware that people make casters and go blast dungeons to bits solo. That doesn't mean martials should have an easier time at it or that people should chase level 15+ so they can solo stuff. Lowering the level cap makes soloing less viable all around. That's a positive change if you ask me.

there are also lvl 20 groups who still get wiped in places like Ghastria.

This is an extreme scenario. For a group of all level 20s to wipe in any Ghastria dungeon, they have to be unaware they receive no XP and therefore deliberately make the choice not to oversize their party if they are in need of vital buffs. The loot there is also nothing to write home about, so when their split becomes 150 instead of 300 or whatever, it's not exactly a big deal. It beats no one getting paid, or everyone walking away poorer for the smidgen of XP they stood to earn.

I know it's frustrating sometimes, but the module doesn't pull punches. If you actively disbelieve the danger that exists in the encounters, or that mobs use certain spells which must be countered, and so on, you're basically daring the game to give you a harder time. There are surprises, unclear mechanics, and glitches, sure, but sometimes players are their own worst enemies.

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Module Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better

« Last post by Evendur on October 16, 2021, 10:12:38 PM »

Further tightening of blind drive bad.

[...]
tl;dr: Blind Drive tightening means yet more burden of knowledge that turns off new players, and also runs the risk of creating new and exciting Bad Feels.

While I'm sure the current number of players operating frequently at 1-XP blind drive is almost negligible, the difference between 0 and 1 XP is pretty huge.

I do not see how this will have any significant negative impact.
When a character has reached the XP cap, it takes forever to gather any meaningful XP and it would already be impossible to tell if one reached the next lvl because of 10 days of  grinding every dungeon on the server  or if it was because of that last dungeon when the cap was actually gone and the same result would have been reached by waiting 9 day before dungeoning again.

According to the rest messages that appear when a character is at the cap, the little bit of RP/coordination during dungeoning brings more XP then killing the monsters.
Completely removing the XP gained by killing monsters will likely have no impact at all, it will only make it more clear to the player what is happening.

But at the same time, the disappearance of the "XP gained" messages in combination with a clear rest message that says "You are beyond blind drive, nothing gained today" will lead to quite a few who will rather spend their time with RP, crafting or just exploring the world. Even if not everyone reads those messages, they are not pointless and I cant see that having anything but a positive effect on dungeon groups

[...]
The progression from 15-20 is more like a victory lap. It does not increase the satisfaction of the challenge because it only makes it easier. Worse, the level range is such an anomaly in how it is unshackled from what the server is supposed to be about, that characters in it often become withdrawn from the game world. It's not for want of trying either, they actually become a part of an untouchable caste where no one wants them around because they break DM event balance and sap XP from parties that are lower level than them, yet simultaneously, everyone wants them around for dungeon rescues and PvP readiness. Not a good feeling.
[...]

I also strongly disagree with this. It sounds a lot like coming from a caster player since those can literally solo most of the server at lvl 15
But even a fully combat optimized lvl20 Fighter wont be able to solo something like trolls without wards (and even with, it would take some time), while there are also lvl 20 groups who still get wiped in places like Ghastria.
But this it too much off topic so we might need to discuss nerving casters in a different Thread, perhaps remove the 9th circle and half the spell slots  *takes cover from the impending shitstorm*

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Module Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better

« Last post by slash on October 16, 2021, 09:41:05 PM »

i think you can have a very plausible and believable weapon master who doesn't dungeon at all and instead just studies and practices with their weapon.

So, having come from a military background IRL I'd have to disagree with this. Practicing with something that doesn't ever strike back with the intent to kill is not even slightly comparable to the real thing. Likewise, fighting with only one sparring partner is going to breed a false sense of confidence in both individuals. Keeping your calm and having the courage to face down your foes would be another key point of mastery, otherwise you can be very good at slashing the air like an actor but never doing anything actually meaningful in a fight. I'd argue that's actually the complete opposite of having weapon mastery, just theatrical mastery. It's like movies where you see people slapping blades at full-body distance with sparks flying. It looks nice, but none of those strikes would have purpose in a real fight.

Take this scene for example:

https://youtu.be/MkYjdPCyYjk?t=108

This is arguably the most realistic duel recorded on film. Both actors had dulled blades and still didn't quite strike with the intent to kill, but you can see the difference from traditional movies where people just wag blades at eachother. You'll never learn how to parry like that from a training dummy. You'll never learn how hard you need to swing to actually do damage to X, Y, or Z creature. A good friend that you train with can have predictable swings, or may not strike as swiftly and hardly as they could. Would a weapon 'master' who trained like this be as good as someone who's survived a hundred battles fighting everything across the core, or would they just be a common city guard?

you can apply the inverse and say that going around wordlessly clearing dungeons shouldn't really give a WM character further understanding of ki, or that doing the same would necessarily bring out more of someone's draconic heritage

And this would be the point in keeping the blind drive system. A character that travelled wordlessly would still be heavily punished by those mechanics, though no more than they already are.

Having to look for new groups and thereby including new character/players isnt exactly a bad thing and may as well be intended.

Finding new players isn't a bad thing, but the problem is that most people don't look for new players or there aren't any around that add to or help cover roles in a group. For some characters it can be infinitely harder to find groups after a certain point based on their class. I know a few rangers and barbarians that get sidelined, for example, but had working groups on the way up.

So, as someone who plays a weapon master who does not dungeon and was in fact a city guard, I must say that assuming you must dungeon to be an effective weapon master is a bit off the mark. Contrary to popular belief, there are aspects to weapon mastery as a PrC beyond the actual fighting. There is a philosophical aspect to the PrC that people tend to neglect when discussing the class, and I believe that shines most through RP rather than combat.

Not all experience is combat experience. In real life, we grow as people through a variety of ways and very seldom if ever are everyday people growing from combat. If anything it makes perfect sense that focusing wholly on combat for growth would cause your character's growth to slow and inevitably stagnate because you are not obtaining experience from a variety of sources. It's always been strange to me that people rail against RP EXP in an RPG where the primary focus is intended to be roleplaying.

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Module Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better

« Last post by Anarcoplayba on October 16, 2021, 09:32:50 PM »

I also don't really want to see the level cap lowered either, because people who actually enjoy playing this game can get a satisfying challenge in what I'd consider are incredibly well-balanced dungeons up to level 20.

The progression from 15-20 is more like a victory lap. It does not increase the satisfaction of the challenge because it only makes it easier. Worse, the level range is such an anomaly in how it is unshackled from what the server is supposed to be about, that characters in it often become withdrawn from the game world. It's not for want of trying either, they actually become a part of an untouchable caste where no one wants them around because they break DM event balance and sap XP from parties that are lower level than them, yet simultaneously, everyone wants them around for dungeon rescues and PvP readiness. Not a good feeling.

I strongly disagree on that. The progression from 15 to 18 is crucial for many classes (casters, specially, and pure fighters) and it allows us to make many things were too hard before. It is now, lvl 18, that I'm putting my PC to TRULY smith.

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Module Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Geistonomics: Why we should change XP and dungeon rewards for the better

« Last post by mooner on October 16, 2021, 08:25:40 PM »

So, having come from a military background IRL I'd have to disagree with this. Practicing with something that doesn't ever strike back with the intent to kill is not even slightly comparable to the real thing. Likewise, fighting with only one sparring partner is going to breed a false sense of confidence in both individuals. Keeping your calm and having the courage to face down your foes would be another key point of mastery, otherwise you can be very good at slashing the air like an actor but never doing anything actually meaningful in a fight. I'd argue that's actually the complete opposite of having weapon mastery, just theatrical mastery. It's like movies where you see people slapping blades at full-body distance with sparks flying. It looks nice, but none of those strikes would have purpose in a real fight.

Take this scene for example:

https://youtu.be/MkYjdPCyYjk?t=108

This is arguably the most realistic duel recorded on film. Both actors had dulled blades and still didn't quite strike with the intent to kill, but you can see the difference from traditional movies where people just wag blades at eachother. You'll never learn how to parry like that from a training dummy. You'll never learn how hard you need to swing to actually do damage to X, Y, or Z creature. A good friend that you train with can have predictable swings, or may not strike as swiftly and hardly as they could. Would a weapon 'master' who trained like this be as good as someone who's survived a hundred battles fighting everything across the core, or would they just be a common city guard?

And this would be the point in keeping the blind drive system. A character that travelled wordlessly would still be heavily punished by those mechanics, though no more than they already are.

In the sense of a general fighter or a ranger acquiring new favoured enemies I'd say that's a solid argument, but the rp approaches I've seen to WM have a much bigger emphasis on study and technique. It would be entirely possible to spar with a variety of opponents but this is something you're relying on RP XP for. Both approaches would have their own strengths - someone with formal training in the techniques of using a weapon is probably going to have advantages (at least, in some areas) over someone who's picked it up from a practical approach, and vice versa. Someone with considerably more practical experience will probably be more knowledgeable overall but that's something you'll see represented on the server just by how quickly people doing dungeons will level in comparison to people only getting rp xp

Even with that change in the system, its still entirely possible someone is doing dungeons then coming out to talk with their barber to reduce the penalty. either way you're relying on the good will of the player to be doing some relevant RP to progress in their class