Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Evendur on November 29, 2022, 06:03:44 AM

Title: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Evendur on November 29, 2022, 06:03:44 AM
Corpsehiding on Potm is an important mechanic to enforce serious consequences as a result of PvP.
But it is also a mechanic that feels very OOC to many since it will be another player who determines if one gets to play a character for a significant amount of time.
As much as it is accepted within the veteran player base, whenever this mechanic comes up in a discussion with newer players it becomes apparent how much this is despised.
Even if new players may at some point understand why this system has been established in order to put some weight on character decisions in conflict, it is still a very unpleasant mechanic.
So lets see if we can replace it while maintaining the same consequences but without leading to ooc friction.



Some ideas:

When one character is killed by another player character, the respawn mechanic could be changed to add a timer that prevents the effects of resurrection.

The timer, could depend on:

- the character level
- the number of previous PvP death, possibly with an expiration timer that fades over time like ocr does

Example:

A lvl 10 character is killed for the first time in PvP, a timeout is set to 24 hours

At lvl 20, the first PvP death could be something like one week.


Any consequent death could result in a timer that is either doubled or tripled (or whatever seems appropriate to the team in order to implement comparable consequences to the current system)

Replacing the current corpsehiding rules with a mechanical feature that is a direct consequence of the characters death instead of consequences enforced by another player would reduce ooc conflict potential by a lot and especially for new players would allow to embrace this part of the game without all the issues it has now.


As a result, a characters death as a consequence of PvP would actually gain a lot more meaning then what we have now. Instead of bad blood between players, it will enforce an impact on a characters story.
In many cases, characters who die in conflict return rather quickly, especially because many don't like to do corpsehiding or even if they accept it, they dont care for all the hatred and rumor mongering that will always follow.

Changing the mechanic from a very ooc corpsehiding rule to an automated consequence that is enforced by the engine would solve a lot of this and probably increase the actual consequences of both conflict and character death.

Ideally we would also have a mechanic to render another character unconscious (like in subdual mode) with the option to carry them as suggested here https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=64568.msg744120#msg744120 in order to add more options in conflict as well

As it is now, I don't think many players really enjoy PvP conflict as much as they could and I believe we could change that by replacing the current mechanic.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Anastian on November 29, 2022, 06:30:27 AM
Starting from the fact PvP through mechanical killing should be a last resort as there are several other ways to build up PvP without fighting, and from the idea that you, by the rules, shouldn't PvP With someone you have ooc gripes with, here are my two cents.

I like the concept of reducing the respawn timer but tripling it if there are multiple PvP deaths. However, the respawn mechanic can be abused too during PvP conflicts even though it entails a serious loss of XP at higher levels: I would refrain from making the timer shorter. Also, bear in mind that if you got into conflict without defusing, you are accepting the risk so trivialising a PvP death shouldn't be possible in our setting
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Evendur on November 29, 2022, 06:34:44 AM
Starting from the fact PvP through mechanical killing should be a last resort as there are several other ways to build up PvP without fighting, and from the idea that you, by the rules, shouldn't PvP With someone you have ooc gripes with, here are my two cents.

I like the concept of reducing the respawn timer but tripling it if there are multiple PvP deaths. However, the respawn mechanic can be abused too during PvP conflicts even though it entails a serious loss of XP at higher levels: I would refrain from making the timer shorter. Also, bear in mind that if you got into conflict without defusing, you are accepting the risk so trivialising a PvP death shouldn't be possible in our setting

I think there is a little misunderstanding here. I did not intend to refer to the existing respawn timer but rather suggest a new timer altogether.
And I would like to reemphasize that the consequences are not intended to be different or even trivial compared to the existing system.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Ryujin on November 29, 2022, 06:52:13 AM
If with this timer you mean that whenever a character is corpsed by another player, they can't be revived before that time has passed then it's an automatic hard-pass for me.

Accidental death by players exists, such as when a low level, inexperienced mage accidentally fireballs their group to death. There is no way to distinguish that from an actual PVP death as per a system.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Evendur on November 29, 2022, 07:04:50 AM
If with this timer you mean that whenever a character is corpsed by another player, they can't be revived before that time has passed ...

That is what I had in mind.

There is no way to distinguish that from an actual PVP death as per a system.

Sure there is, thats why you need to hostile before PvP.

And even if there may be any details to solve, this thread is meant to look at alternatives to the current system in general.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Chadyo on November 29, 2022, 07:52:32 AM
I would change the subject of this post to -delete- the corpsehiding mechanic.

I've always been amazed by the fact corpse hiding is somehow allowed? Corpse hiding has the possibility to be utter toxic and has been used in that toxic sense before. You're denying someone else their character and the roleplay it's staggering that it's just a legal thing that's fully tolerated. Other roleplaying universes and places I've roleplayed on always had rules to stop anything like kidnapping and imprisonment grieving.

If you kill someone in a domain, then transport their corpse from one domain to the other to find the most remote corner to put a body without giving players a few hints to find it is just downright grieving and should not be tolerated. You might hate each other IC but it shouldn't and can't ever lead to someone not being able to play a character for an extend period of time. Every PVP fight that happens on this server is an all out battle without roleplay, or any kind of satisfaction. Because you need to be the winner otherwise you get corpse hidden.

There's also no system to prevent someone from placing a corpse in an area that's 'illegal' I know of a few cases where a body was placed in an area that wasn't allowed. Leading to the only option of when you search for a corpse you first have to ask a DM if it's in a legal spot or not otherwise I wouldn't even bother. I was working on making a post such as this myself to protest against the fact corpse hiding exists and I've documented every case of corpse hiding i've known/witnessed . So if there is a DM or a Dev who's going to push for a change for this feel free to contact me and I'll provide you with everything.

I know about the scrying system, but it's ineffective and still does not solve anything else. Someone really determined can just keep moving the corpse. It is possible in theory to deny someone ever playing on POTM again if you devoted the time and resources to it.

Some of the suggestions I would make:

1. Make rules to encourage roleplaying with your prisoner/kidnapped victim (Not everyone enjoys playing alts)
2. Make an option where you can take a corpse beyond a badly impaired, like the burned down skull that we used to have and put it on a 7/14/30 day timer that someone in the spirit world can see counting down rather then leave it up to others to find it.

If no-one likes that, or wants to do that then at least put in some rules that

3. Stop people from putting bodies in the remotest corner.
4. Taking it out of the domain in which it was killed (Vistani would not let you bring a body into a carriage, and if you approach with a man sized bag they are going to be sus)
5. Or apply what the Brotherhood of the whip recently did? A trade for a location of a body creates roleplay and is a fantastic idea. But just keep the demands reasonable. (I don't know the full details)

Don't do to others what you would not want done to yourself.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: EO on November 29, 2022, 08:09:59 AM
Quote
I know about the scrying system, but it's ineffective and still does not solve anything else. Someone really determined can just keep moving the corpse. It is possible in theory to deny someone ever playing on POTM again if you devoted the time and resources to it.

Not really since anyone can respawn after a certain amount of time, even when the body has been mutilated.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Chadyo on November 29, 2022, 08:25:48 AM
Quote
I know about the scrying system, but it's ineffective and still does not solve anything else. Someone really determined can just keep moving the corpse. It is possible in theory to deny someone ever playing on POTM again if you devoted the time and resources to it.

Not really since anyone can respawn after a certain amount of time, even when the body has been mutilated.

An average player will do 2 months per level beyond level 15.

[7:59 PM]Atuar of Omu (Chadyo): ATUAR - LEVEL 16 - 05/11/2021
[10:55 AM]Atuar of Omu (Chadyo): ATUAR - LEVEL 17 - 01/02/2022
[11:23 PM]Atuar of Omu (Chadyo): ATUAR - LEVEL 18 - 03/04/2022
[7:20 PM]Atuar of Omu (Chadyo): ATUAR - LEVEL 19 08/06/2022


I don't know how many levels it would cost me, but you are only proving the fact that players can grief each other even more then is already possible by actually downleveling eachother taking months of progress away from someone who had to spend a considerable amount of time for that. This isn't a solution, this is fuel.

Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Vissy on November 29, 2022, 08:32:33 AM
I do think there should be more tools for players to pvp with each other and create scenes after the pvp is over - such as interrogations, imprisonments and the like. I personally think that creating mechanical frameworks for, say, imprisoning a player (who can then be broken out of their 'prison' by their allies, if they figure out where they are held), would create much more roleplay than corpsehiding, which is a method of dealing consequences that is very limited in scope. It's the self-directed jank method instead of a structured roleplaying opportunity. It is rare that your run of the mill conflict that ends in corpsing ends in the losing side wanting to closure as a result. So there should be mechanical encouragement of creating roleplay beyond that.

Of course in the end, much of this will rely on amicable OOC communication and brainstorming between both sides of a conflict. Sharing of ideas for directions towards where the conflict could go that satisfy both sides (no need to discuss details there at all, it can simply be a discussion of what both sides want out of the conflict in RP terms or for their characters). Thinking of ways to enforce consequences ICly without needing to result in closure or a character being out of roleplay for days, weeks or months. And so on.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Vallaki Justice on November 29, 2022, 08:38:38 AM
The sad truth is that the only real meaningful consequence players can inflict on each other right now is corpsehiding.

I don't think what you're suggesting is too different from what corpsehiding is now. The end result is that players cannot play their PCs for a set time and it no longer rewards veteran players for having OOC server knowledge of the best spots to hide bodies at.

In truth, I am on the fence about it. I think that if corpsehiding is done right, there can be a LOT of roleplay created. But too often it is not. Too often someone will just be chucked somewhere and forgotten for a while after the initial search parties exhaust themselves.



I think that a better way to do this is to have players killed in PvP suffer "mortal wounds." Regardless of level, it would be up to the player to roleplay this out how they wish, be it they are afraid of true death, they experience trauma from their demise, or they have suffered a grievous wound and cannot return to battle. I think you should be "banned" from rejoining the conflict offensively during this time, only being allowed to defend yourself or flee if you come in contact with the person again. Perhaps after the first death you have to wait three days.  After the second death you wait a week. After the third a month. And then you cannot rejoin the conflict if you die that fourth time.

I don't think this needs much of a mechanical system to support, either.

Edit: I'll clarify too, I mean players who are corpsed would suffer these effects. This way it shouldn't effect AMPCs who tend to subdue people for their scenes and only corpse people who are problematic.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: EO on November 29, 2022, 08:46:47 AM
Quote
I don't know how many levels it would cost me, but you are only proving the fact that players can grief each other even more then is already possible by actually downleveling eachother taking months of progress away from someone who had to spend a considerable amount of time for that. This isn't a solution, this is fuel.

I have little sympathy for high levels involved in conflict; with our rules in place, the character must have sought into the conflict. If it's a high level character, it's likely a veteran. Want less consequences for dying? Be lower level; shorter time to respawn, less XP loss. Or don't get involved in conflict, that also works.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Ryujin on November 29, 2022, 08:48:12 AM

I think that a better way to do this is to have players killed in PvP suffer "mortal wounds." Regardless of level, It would be up to the player to roleplay this out how they wish, be it they are afraid of true death, they experience trauma from their demise, or they have suffered a grievous wound and cannot return to battle. I think you should be "banned" from rejoining the conflict offensively during this time, only being allowed to defend yourself or flee if you come in contact with the person again. Perhaps after the first death you have to wait three days.  After the second death you wait a week. After the third a month. And then you cannot rejoin the conflict if you die that fourth time.

I don't think this needs much of a mechanical system to support, either.

I like this idea. If in an event a player ends up dying, or taken out by the other side, currently what happens is they get revived and then just go back at it with a vengeance. In the end having achieved nothing for either side. The only current solution to prevent such a thing is corpsehiding, which can be perceived as toxic, and DM's can't always oversee corpsehiding things. I would be all for a system, or rulechange, that says that "If in a conflict, a player dies or is taken out to/by the opposing side, they are unable to join back into the fight immediatly after reviving". maybe give it a cooldown of 7-14 days before they might be able to rejoin. This way at least there would be -something- accomplished in the conflict, without having to resort to corpsehiding.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Chadyo on November 29, 2022, 09:05:22 AM
Quote
I don't know how many levels it would cost me, but you are only proving the fact that players can grief each other even more then is already possible by actually downleveling eachother taking months of progress away from someone who had to spend a considerable amount of time for that. This isn't a solution, this is fuel.

I have little sympathy for high levels involved in conflict; with our rules in place, the character must have sought into the conflict. If it's a high level character, it's likely a veteran. Want less consequences for dying? Be lower level; shorter time to respawn, less XP loss. Or don't get involved in conflict, that also works.

This is an extremely black and white view, a paladin can't stand there and allow evil people to abuse others. Forcing him into a possible PVP situation and what would he be rewarded with should said evil person be unreasonable? Months of being tucked away in a corner until he finally accepts the XP penalty. There is absolutely people who get involved in conflict even though they have no desire to do so.

Why does the level of someone matter in this case? Is this is a server about levels or about roleplay?

I avoid PVP like the plague, and in my entire time here I've only had to do so twice as an PC which were both resolved in a very good fashion but I've seen many examples where people were hidden for up to months at a time.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Chabxxu on November 29, 2022, 09:06:49 AM
For me it comes back to one simple thing: You are always allowed to opt-out of conflicts that might lead to corpsehiding. Very very few people get corpse-hiding for no reason, and usually the DMs will intervene to help such person.

Conflict needs to have some consequences to it. And while corpsehiding is not the perfect solution, it is currently what we have and people need to get used to it. If you do not want to get corpsehidden, then don’t participate in said conflict.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: She Said Destroy on November 29, 2022, 09:07:24 AM
I do think there should be more tools for players to pvp with each other and create scenes after the pvp is over - such as interrogations, imprisonments and the like. I personally think that creating mechanical frameworks for, say, imprisoning a player [snip] would create much more roleplay than corpsehiding, which is a method of dealing consequences that is very limited in scope.

I really like this idea. Ways of enforcing consequences that don't involve killing. Could a dev comment on whether or not this is possible, please?
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: EO on November 29, 2022, 09:14:22 AM
Quote
This is an extremely black and white view, a paladin can't stand there and allow evil people to abuse others. Forcing him into a possible PVP situation and what would he be rewarded with should said evil person be unreasonable? Months of being tucked away in a corner until he finally accepts the XP penalty. There is absolutely people who get involved in conflict even though they have no desire to do so.

By involving himself in the conflict, the paladin will likely impose consequences on the antagonist, so it's only fair he has something to risk. If he's high level, his impact on the conflict will be even greater. Or should consequences only be imposed on the evil antagonist in this situation? That doesn't seem fair to the other player.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Siobhan on November 29, 2022, 09:15:08 AM
Imprisonments are almost worse than corpsehiding, IMO. Having your playtime -maybe- dependant on the schedule of another is far worse than taking a break from the character until the timer ticks by and you can force respawn.

A really important thing to remember is that corpsehiding is just a time out. Your story is not over.

The DM team is really good about making sure that the people who have been hiding have fulfilled the PvP opt in requirements. In a game where it takes months, if not years, to hit max level, a couple months timeout for extreme player conflict development seems reasonable to me and appropriate to reflect the gravitas of it.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Lion El'Jonson on November 29, 2022, 09:18:09 AM
This is an extremely black and white view, a paladin can't stand there and allow evil people to abuse others. Forcing him into a possible PVP situation and what would he be rewarded with should said evil person be unreasonable? Months of being tucked away in a corner until he finally accepts the XP penalty. There is absolutely people who get involved in conflict even though they have no desire to do so.
Nobody should play a paladin if they're not willing to be a part of conflict. A paladin's very nature should demand confrontation against evil players and behavior, up to and including PVP. And it's just as likely to result in the evil person being tucked away in a corner if they lose. That's the only consequence the server has to offer for antagonistic behavior ICly and even with corpsehiding, people can be found, come back, and do the same things that got them corpsehidden in the first place. I think corpsehiding is fine, especially with the changes allowing you to scry or resurrect eventually no matter what. It's more lenient than some servers, it's less lenient than others. It may not be perfect, but I haven't seen a death system on any server that satisfied everyone and didn't have a mountain of complaints.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Maffa on November 29, 2022, 09:25:16 AM
Imprisonment rhymes with faction only locations and locks, I'm afraid.

Apart from that, there are very very few places a high level mage or beguiler are not allowed to enter. And maybe rightly so, thats their job, but the cost is to trivialize the process of entering in PVP.

I hate pvp with a passion. I do my best to avoid it even if i have to bend backwards. I only have been in one PVP against another player and i still remember the adrenaline rush and i didnt like it.

What I could think of is every PVP between players to be assigned and moderated by a CC in order to insure a correct development of what is happening, so that every side is treated fair and not grieved too much because reasons. I am not aware of the exact number of player versus fellow player (so no (A)MPCs) feuds, but i would like to imagine they are not that many -I say that because i always have been fine with how (A)MPC treated me and their purpose is to entertain people by telling compelling stories. If there were a "case official" maybe corpse hiding wouldnt be necessary.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Chadyo on November 29, 2022, 09:31:31 AM
This is an extremely black and white view, a paladin can't stand there and allow evil people to abuse others. Forcing him into a possible PVP situation and what would he be rewarded with should said evil person be unreasonable? Months of being tucked away in a corner until he finally accepts the XP penalty. There is absolutely people who get involved in conflict even though they have no desire to do so.
Nobody should play a paladin if they're not willing to be a part of conflict. A paladin's very nature should demand confrontation against evil players and behavior, up to and including PVP. And it's just as likely to result in the evil person being tucked away in a corner if they lose. That's the only consequence the server has to offer for antagonistic behavior ICly and even with corpsehiding, people can be found, come back, and do the same things that got them corpsehidden in the first place. I think corpsehiding is fine, especially with the changes allowing you to scry or resurrect eventually no matter what. It's more lenient than some servers, it's less lenient than others. It may not be perfect, but I haven't seen a death system on any server that satisfied everyone and didn't have a mountain of complaints.

Anyone should be able to play anything they want without being opened to just openly being grieved for their choice of character they play. Wether it's a paladin, or a lawful good necromancer. I've never had the need or the desire to corpse hide anyone on any of my AMPC's because it brings nothing to the story, you can't force closure someone and corpse hiding a desperate half measure attempt in between attempting to closure someone.

Now someone who constantly gets involved and constant attacks you again can get annoying, and eventually someone needs to feel some consequences of their actions but corpse hiding for extended periods of time isn't the method.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Day Old Bread on November 29, 2022, 09:34:32 AM
Rather than bemoan a system that emphasizes consequences for IC actions, perhaps we should be encouraging the "victim" to closure their characters in these instances.

I am fully aware of how much it sucks to have your corpse hidden and have your most beloved character unavailable to play for a time. But this mindset of "I must finish telling my story" is, in my mind, really toxic. There's nothing stopping anyone from creating a new character that they will inevitably fall in love with.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Chabxxu on November 29, 2022, 09:36:25 AM
This is an extremely black and white view, a paladin can't stand there and allow evil people to abuse others. Forcing him into a possible PVP situation and what would he be rewarded with should said evil person be unreasonable? Months of being tucked away in a corner until he finally accepts the XP penalty. There is absolutely people who get involved in conflict even though they have no desire to do so.
Nobody should play a paladin if they're not willing to be a part of conflict. A paladin's very nature should demand confrontation against evil players and behavior, up to and including PVP. And it's just as likely to result in the evil person being tucked away in a corner if they lose. That's the only consequence the server has to offer for antagonistic behavior ICly and even with corpsehiding, people can be found, come back, and do the same things that got them corpsehidden in the first place. I think corpsehiding is fine, especially with the changes allowing you to scry or resurrect eventually no matter what. It's more lenient than some servers, it's less lenient than others. It may not be perfect, but I haven't seen a death system on any server that satisfied everyone and didn't have a mountain of complaints.

Anyone should be able to play anything they want without being opened to just openly being grieved for their choice of character they play. Wether it's a paladin, or a lawful good necromancer. I've never had the need or the desire to corpse hide anyone on any of my AMPC's because it brings nothing to the story, you can't force closure someone and corpse hiding a desperate half measure attempt in between attempting to closure someone.

Now someone who constantly gets involved and constant attacks you again can get annoying, and eventually someone needs to feel some consequences of their actions but corpse hiding for extended periods of time isn't the method.

You say this isn’t the way, but you don’t bring any suggestion to the table to stop people who just come right back in after dying. How would you stop these people from just coming back over and over again to try and kill the opposing PC?
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Anarcoplayba on November 29, 2022, 09:38:27 AM
Quote
This is an extremely black and white view, a paladin can't stand there and allow evil people to abuse others. Forcing him into a possible PVP situation and what would he be rewarded with should said evil person be unreasonable? Months of being tucked away in a corner until he finally accepts the XP penalty. There is absolutely people who get involved in conflict even though they have no desire to do so.

By involving himself in the conflict, the paladin will likely impose consequences on the antagonist, so it's only fair he has something to risk. If he's high level, his impact on the conflict will be even greater. Or should consequences only be imposed on the evil antagonist in this situation? That doesn't seem fair to the other player.

Bingo.

With great powers come great consequences. It act as a nice deterrent for the higher ups to not brandish their twenty or something levels of powerbuild lavishly.

Also: the whole concept of roleplaying is about tellin stories. Dieing is also part of the story.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Chadyo on November 29, 2022, 09:42:51 AM
You say this isn’t the way, but you don’t bring any suggestion to the table to stop people who just come right back in after dying. How would you stop these people from just coming back over and over again to try and kill the opposing PC?

Lookman came with some great ideas, I've provided some suggestions in my first response. They arn't perfect ideas, but they are better then what is on the table right now.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Chadyo on November 29, 2022, 09:48:16 AM
Bingo.

With great powers come great consequences. It act as a nice deterrent for the higher ups to not brandish their twenty or something levels of powerbuild lavishly.

Also: the whole concept of roleplaying is about tellin stories. Dieing is also part of the story.

Sure, yet you're not really dead when you're corpse hidden it's just an forced break on that character that isn't remotely plot driven, for all we know someone out of sheer spite could just park you in a place where no-one would find you anytime soon.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Evendur on November 29, 2022, 09:50:41 AM
A point that seems to be overlooked by all those who talk about "accepting consequences" here is that the problem with corpsehiding isnt just for the one being corpsehidden.

The most common issue that I have seen is that people are getting into the position where it would make IC sense to do the corpsehiding, but this mechanic is viewed by many as extremely toxic, personal and disgusting, leading them to not implement any consequences instead. Therefore, a mechanical solution would actually lead to more consequences in the end but with less grievance.

Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Lion El'Jonson on November 29, 2022, 09:51:30 AM
Sure, yet you're not really dead when you're corpse hidden it's just an forced break on that character that isn't remotely plot driven, for all we know someone out of sheer spite could just park you in a place where no-one would find you anytime soon.
But the obvious trade-off is the same thing can just be done right back to them. As soon as someone that's corpsehidden is found, 9/10 times they can/will identify who killed them and the consequences can be reversed. If you go around spite corpsehiding people left and right, someone will kill you and do it to you.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: ladylena on November 29, 2022, 09:54:01 AM
Perhaps we could opt to use some of the items that allow us to dominate person, as you can use that to force someone to forget. We can also do different things instead of killing characters for consequences. There are mutilations or manipulation of others to destroy their lives.

Corpse hiding, while it can be a distasteful thing is not as awful as it was before. Now we have the scrying tool, we can respawn if badly impaired or even turned to ash. We can apply to become MPCs. So yes it sucks, but I think what we could ultimately benefit from doing is opening the line of communcation fully between players. That way it can be discussed and determined what each other are comfortable with and maybe even try to figure out a different option instead of character death and hiding. I know it's hard to feel like anything makes a difference when people can just go get their high level cleric buddy to regenerate the lost appendage or whatever, so perhaps there is something we can do here to help encourage more consequences beyond death. Perhaps the spells could be removed from players or changed and have one that's only available at like end game level to specificly regenerate and regrow lost body parts. That is something that could encourage more consequences and give players something to do other than kill for penalty. If we make it exceptionally hard to regrow lost limbs and what not then it can open a door for a whole new aspect of rp. We could see surgeons doing freaky Lamordian hand transplants or making clockwork replacement hands from metal, we could see mages without a tongue, or fingers who now have to use magic in a different way. There are many options out there but right now the only secure guaranteed way of IC punishment is being corpse hidden. It's the only consequence that isn't easily magicked away.

If you're worried about those who keep coming back right after, badly impaire them, it stops them from being able to instantly respawn.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Siobhan on November 29, 2022, 09:58:34 AM
A point that seems to be overlooked by all those who talk about "accepting consequences" here is that the problem with corpsehiding isnt jsut for the one being corpsehidden.

The most common issue that I have seen is that people are getting into the position where it would make IC sense to do the corpsehiding, but this mechanic is viewed by many as extremely toxic, personal and disgusting, leading them to not implement any consequences instead. Therefore, a mechanical solution would actually lead to more consequences in the end but with less grievance.




I think that’s the kind of cultural problem that needs a cultural solution, and tbh, sounds like bleed over from bad IC feelings that bleed out and are confused into bad OOC feelings when there shouldn’t be.

Having bad things happen to a character isn’t bad OOC. This is in a conflict that was opted into. The player is aware of the stakes involved and has decided following the RP is what they want.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: BraveSirRobin on November 29, 2022, 10:13:22 AM
A point that seems to be overlooked by all those who talk about "accepting consequences" here is that the problem with corpsehiding isnt jsut for the one being corpsehidden.

The most common issue that I have seen is that people are getting into the position where it would make IC sense to do the corpsehiding, but this mechanic is viewed by many as extremely toxic, personal and disgusting, leading them to not implement any consequences instead. Therefore, a mechanical solution would actually lead to more consequences in the end but with less grievance.




I think that’s the kind of cultural problem that needs a cultural solution, and tbh, sounds like bleed over from bad IC feelings that bleed out and are confused into bad OOC feelings when there shouldn’t be.

Having bad things happen to a character isn’t bad OOC. This is in a conflict that was opted into. The player is aware of the stakes involved and has decided following the RP is what they want.


You're correct. People enter into conflict too-willingly. If they're afraid of eating the consequences, they shouldn't engage. That doesn't just mean attacking people, it means opting into any conflict, even they're the victim. Even if it's an insult thrown, that upon being threatened to retract, was never retracted. That's how conflict happens and works. It's not a permanent death, and if and when it's ever become an issue out-of-character, I've turned it over to the DM Team/Community Council for resolution without a smidgeon of guilt on my conscience.

I'd encourage you all to do the same, instead of worrying about what people think of you, because you aren't your character, and neither should they be.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Maffa on November 29, 2022, 10:20:37 AM
There is also to be said that there are characters that are optimised for combat, and PVP combat.

If the culture of "eat the consequences" is brought to its extremes, then these kind of people will thrive, including people with grandfathered equipments.

I am not against a "mechanic" that would turn fair for both the attacker and the defender, but again id rely on the mediation of a CC member to grant on the fairness of it all.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Day Old Bread on November 29, 2022, 10:26:54 AM
Bingo.

With great powers come great consequences. It act as a nice deterrent for the higher ups to not brandish their twenty or something levels of powerbuild lavishly.

Also: the whole concept of roleplaying is about tellin stories. Dieing is also part of the story.

Sure, yet you're not really dead when you're corpse hidden it's just an forced break on that character that isn't remotely plot driven, for all we know someone out of sheer spite could just park you in a place where no-one would find you anytime soon.

That seems like a problem that the DM's are well equipped to handle. If it's out of sheer spite and not driven by the story that's unfolded, that's called griefing and is a breach of the rules of PotM
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: BraveSirRobin on November 29, 2022, 10:28:57 AM
There is also to be said that there are characters that are optimised for combat, and PVP combat.

If the culture of "eat the consequences" is brought to its extremes, then these kind of people will thrive, including people with grandfathered equipments.

I am not against a "mechanic" that would turn fair for both the attacker and the defender, but again id rely on the mediation of a CC member to grant on the fairness of it all.

There are characters who are built for PvP from day one, and there's a reason I always look at the PvP viability of my character. In the long-term, there are few things that will affect your story more than the inevitable conflict you will enter into as you progress into the mid-teens of your character's lifespan. However, one cannot just enter into PvP wantonly, both parties have to have fulfilled the required criteria and the DM Team/Community Council are involved to some degree in every major PvP event of consequence to review it for rules violations.

So if you're not a character prepared for PvP, or who isn't built/equipped for it, I'd consider taking the opt-out option, even if it's unflattering. That's not me trying to be mean, or a bully, but because it's the reality of the situation. If you take that opt-out, whatever it may be, then you're effectively immune. If you choose not to, then you're actively opting into the conflict, for better or worse.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: myrddraal on November 29, 2022, 10:40:54 AM
Team good has vaulting (perma death essentially given how extremely rare a vault raid will be run considering it takes 2 DMs that are willing) jailing  and corpse hiding as consequences for evil people.  Evil people have corpsehiding and the ba'al verzi which from what I've heard from a few people is inactive atm.  Most of the "best" corpse hiding spots are also well known and I feel like the only real reason this was brought up is because theres a new, largely unknown domain, released that means new spots to punish people meddling into their evil deeds.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Evendur on November 29, 2022, 10:41:15 AM
A point that seems to be overlooked by all those who talk about "accepting consequences" here is that the problem with corpsehiding isnt jsut for the one being corpsehidden.

The most common issue that I have seen is that people are getting into the position where it would make IC sense to do the corpsehiding, but this mechanic is viewed by many as extremely toxic, personal and disgusting, leading them to not implement any consequences instead. Therefore, a mechanical solution would actually lead to more consequences in the end but with less grievance.




I think that’s the kind of cultural problem that needs a cultural solution, and tbh, sounds like bleed over from bad IC feelings that bleed out and are confused into bad OOC feelings when there shouldn’t be.

Having bad things happen to a character isn’t bad OOC. This is in a conflict that was opted into. The player is aware of the stakes involved and has decided following the RP is what they want.


You're correct. People enter into conflict too-willingly. If they're afraid of eating the consequences, they shouldn't engage. That doesn't just mean attacking people, it means opting into any conflict, even they're the victim. Even if it's an insult thrown, that upon being threatened to retract, was never retracted. That's how conflict happens and works. It's not a permanent death, and if and when it's ever become an issue out-of-character, I've turned it over to the DM Team/Community Council for resolution without a smidgeon of guilt on my conscience.

I'd encourage you all to do the same, instead of worrying about what people think of you, because you aren't your character, and neither should they be.

While your statement is correct, it ultimately means to walk away from any RP that could include conflict. And that is just plain sad.

Would it not be a lot better for an RP focused game to allow someone to embrace severe consequences for their character instead?

If you need to run from any chance of conflict instead of engaging in rp, that I take this as the greatest proof of a flawed system I could think of.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Abear on November 29, 2022, 10:43:13 AM
There's nothing stopping you from embracing the severe consequences. I like the mechanic and hope it stays. Death is too trivialized as it is and I'd hate to see it get worse. Being dead is a potential consequence of fighting each other with weapons and magic and always has been.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Evendur on November 29, 2022, 10:44:29 AM
Most of the "best" corpse hiding spots are also well known and I feel like the only real reason this was brought up is because theres a new, largely unknown domain, released that means new spots to punish people meddling into their evil deeds.

No, this has been brought up because of the exact opposite reasons: People do not want to corpsehide and I cant even remember the last conflict/PvP death with consequences lasting more then a few days.

People on all sides complain about a lack of consequences as well as the unwillingess to enforce consequences on other players when the mechanic feels as much ooc as it does.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Siobhan on November 29, 2022, 10:49:34 AM
While your statement is correct, it ultimately means to walk away from any RP that could include conflict. And that is just plain sad.

Would it not be a lot better for an RP focused game to allow someone to embrace severe consequences for their character instead?

If you need to run from any chance of conflict instead of engaging in rp, that I take this as the greatest proof of a flawed system I could think of.

I don't walk away from RP conflict at all. I embrace it. I've played in opt-in scenarios on a variety of characters, including against guard factions.

If people feel the need to walk away from RP because they don't want to have the possibility having a time-out from playing their character, that's their choice. It's not one that I tend to make, but I respect that people might want to value their chill hangout in PotM time over high-stakes RP.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: myrddraal on November 29, 2022, 10:55:56 AM
Most of the "best" corpse hiding spots are also well known and I feel like the only real reason this was brought up is because theres a new, largely unknown domain, released that means new spots to punish people meddling into their evil deeds.

No, this has been brought up because of the exact opposite reasons: People do not want to corpsehide and I cant even remember the last conflict/PvP death with consequences lasting more then a few days.

People on all sides complain about a lack of consequences as well as the unwillingess to enforce consequences on other players when the mechanic feels as much ooc as it does.

Sure, people dont -want- to corpse hide, but its basically the only way evil people have to make sure someone doesn't immediately come back and strike them down for even a brief period of time.  If team evil had the same tools that team good did, you'd see less of it.  But they dont.

Speaking from experience, I've been confronted literally like 2 hours after somehting happened and the body wasnt even discovered yet.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: BraveSirRobin on November 29, 2022, 11:01:50 AM
A point that seems to be overlooked by all those who talk about "accepting consequences" here is that the problem with corpsehiding isnt jsut for the one being corpsehidden.

The most common issue that I have seen is that people are getting into the position where it would make IC sense to do the corpsehiding, but this mechanic is viewed by many as extremely toxic, personal and disgusting, leading them to not implement any consequences instead. Therefore, a mechanical solution would actually lead to more consequences in the end but with less grievance.




I think that’s the kind of cultural problem that needs a cultural solution, and tbh, sounds like bleed over from bad IC feelings that bleed out and are confused into bad OOC feelings when there shouldn’t be.

Having bad things happen to a character isn’t bad OOC. This is in a conflict that was opted into. The player is aware of the stakes involved and has decided following the RP is what they want.


You're correct. People enter into conflict too-willingly. If they're afraid of eating the consequences, they shouldn't engage. That doesn't just mean attacking people, it means opting into any conflict, even they're the victim. Even if it's an insult thrown, that upon being threatened to retract, was never retracted. That's how conflict happens and works. It's not a permanent death, and if and when it's ever become an issue out-of-character, I've turned it over to the DM Team/Community Council for resolution without a smidgeon of guilt on my conscience.

I'd encourage you all to do the same, instead of worrying about what people think of you, because you aren't your character, and neither should they be.

While your statement is correct, it ultimately means to walk away from any RP that could include conflict. And that is just plain sad.

Would it not be a lot better for an RP focused game to allow someone to embrace severe consequences for their character instead?

If you need to run from any chance of conflict instead of engaging in rp, that I take this as the greatest proof of a flawed system I could think of.

I mean. That really just... Depends on what you're defining RP as. Technically, you are engaging in RP by walking away from a scenario of conflict in which you do not think you can win. Conflict has to have a method of resolution, whether that's in killing someone, spreading foul rumours, getting their political allies to work against them, or otherwise. Unfortunately, most conflicts on PoTM exist in the vagabond wilds of inbetween civilized domains, in the Mist Camps, or otherwise. You are in the presence of the most putrid, vile, and violent people known to the Core, and chances are, their issues will sooner be resolved by cleaving your head from your shoulders, than suffering your presence.

There's a nicer, darker way to look at things, and should be expected in general. I've always had my characters look at anyone who isn't part of some actual society to be one step removed from lawless bandits; Because let's be honest. What are they?


Most of the "best" corpse hiding spots are also well known and I feel like the only real reason this was brought up is because theres a new, largely unknown domain, released that means new spots to punish people meddling into their evil deeds.

No, this has been brought up because of the exact opposite reasons: People do not want to corpsehide and I cant even remember the last conflict/PvP death with consequences lasting more then a few days.

People on all sides complain about a lack of consequences as well as the unwillingess to enforce consequences on other players when the mechanic feels as much ooc as it does.

Sure, people dont -want- to corpse hide, but its basically the only way evil people have to make sure someone doesn't immediately come back and strike them down for even a brief period of time.  If team evil had the same tools that team good did, you'd see less of it.  But they dont.

Speaking from experience, I've been confronted literally like 2 hours after somehting happened and the body wasnt even discovered yet.

It's probably not the best way to look at things, as Team Good v. Team Evil, as that's not really a realistic viewpoint. Technically, Team Evil is the Darklords, and in their domains, their corrupt law is the evil law. The Barovians are Team Evil, you're just a different Evil; You're your own Evil, competing in the realms of practical demigods of darkness. Team Good, in Ravenloft, has almost nothing at all, and doesn't even have a guard faction.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Evendur on November 29, 2022, 11:10:51 AM
Sure, people dont -want- to corpse hide, but its basically the only way evil people have to make sure someone doesn't immediately come back and strike them down for even a brief period of time. 

And if we had a mechanic that effectively implements the same consequences but without it feeling like ooc punishment, wouldn't that be better?
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Lion El'Jonson on November 29, 2022, 11:14:31 AM
Team good has vaulting (perma death essentially given how extremely rare a vault raid will be run considering it takes 2 DMs that are willing) jailing  and corpse hiding as consequences for evil people.

'Team good' doesn't have vaulting, the guards have vaulting. Evil people aren't the only ones who get vaulted. Likewise with jailing. I'd say most jailing is due to simple lawbreaks than actual evil.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: myrddraal on November 29, 2022, 11:19:21 AM
Team good has vaulting (perma death essentially given how extremely rare a vault raid will be run considering it takes 2 DMs that are willing) jailing  and corpse hiding as consequences for evil people.

'Team good' doesn't have vaulting, the guards have vaulting. Evil people aren't the only ones who get vaulted. Likewise with jailing. I'd say most jailing is due to simple lawbreaks than actual evil.

Team good and team guard is more or less the same as team lawful if people want to argue semantics because even if they will hunt vampires, werewolves, etc, they're never going to square up to Strahd.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Revenant on November 29, 2022, 11:30:04 AM
I'm just going to be lazy and dredge up my old response to a two year old corpsehiding thread.

...

If you have any inclination to believe that your corpse is in a spot that is violating the rules (or, indeed, the corpse of someone you know is in such a spot), then you should contact a DM. They have the capability to easily identify such things and will take steps immediately to resolve it. The results of their labor will most likely not be made known to you - but they will look, and unless we're accusing DMs of being a secret cabal bent against certain players, they will make sure things are above board.

...

As a more general address to the topic at hand, I won't pretend that corpse-hiding is a perfect solution. I also won't pretend that the negative experiences people have shared or implied are invalid. However, I do think that some people want a system where they always have the option to say "Time out! PvP is one of my red lights!" and frankly that's as damaging to a shared narrative as people getting punked and dumped for thin reasoning (whichyoucanreporttoaDM).

This issue is a part of the nature of being a large-scale shared narrative. Smaller communities can get away without systems like this because all of the players are reasonably able to be in touch with each other at all times, and those small communities typically have a very concrete shared mindset. I've seen enclaves on large, relatively consequence-free servers that emulate this as a necessity, while the rest of said server generally continues either in rather light storylines (because consequence is 100% at player whim) or what I call the "feedback loop of conflict", best described by Chumbawumba's 1997 hit Tubthumping.

"I get knocked down, but I get up again
You are never gonna keep me down"

For us, there need to be tools to provide an actual cessation/delay of conflict, to prevent the feedback loop. Some large communities do this via a "New Life Rule", whereby you can't simply stand up after getting knocked down and go to your local garda/newspaper/do-gooder and say "Here is my 20/20 description of the people who killed me and the dark secrets that I uncovered that I was killed for knowing" - some do it by having a system where after a certain number of deaths, you're just dead, incentivizing de-escalation. PotM's death system is how we handle it. And it could be better! As EO says, he's working on some changes.

...

Without some means to ensure de-escalation, or to cease/delay conflict, stories very quickly become slug-fests that don't make much sense and take on a tinge of absurdity. Characters trend towards open disregard of persons and groups that should warrant a degree of care in dealing with and death cheapens (and it's not exactly expensive right now). Risk creates good stories - it's why people like Game of Thrones, Martin manages to make his characters feel like they don't have plot-armor, even if it's not true.

...a brief tl;dr.

  • Report it to the DM if you suspect a body has been hidden in an illegal location, your's or others'
  • Risk creates good stories - look at Game of Thrones
  • Some system for de-escalation, cessation, or delay of conflict needs to exist to give stories meaning
  • Opting-in to conflict can be done in more ways than you might think
  • If you're being hunted, act like it
  • Be excellent to one another

Now for some hot modern takes for 2022.

I think that there is some level of echo-chamber style stoking of fears that has led to people turning PvP into a Prisoner's Dilemma, and then failing to actually solve the Prisoner's Dilemma in the way best for the group (one would hope to prioritize the group over the individual in collaborative storytelling, after all).

I reiterate that illegal corpsehiding does not happen nearly as much as is purported (or corpsehiding in general, even, though it does feel like people are quicker to jump to it nowadays). DMs check if you ask - for illegal corpsehiding to be an epidemic, you'd need an almost fully corrupted DM team, and that's a bit too much of a conspiracy theory for me to buy.

The most important function of corpsehiding, IMO, and the most valid time to use it, is information control. Any idea proposed to "fix" corpsehiding needs to not just completely stack the deck against espionage roleplay. That's my main concern with things like a "grievous wound" system - that stops direct mechanical confrontation, but not immediately running to the garda/the underworld and smothering whatever plotting you stumbled on in the cradle, despite getting caught by the plotters.

The second most important function is enforcing some level of gravity to actions. Though it is technically reportable on Arelith, people snidely/indirectly brushing off getting their skull repeatedly turned concave is one of the things I always chafed with there. A bit of a double-edged sword in some respects, but we roleplayers have a tendency to get precious with our characters, and we've all seen the unflappable, wise-cracking, pun-in-the-face-of-cosmic-horror type a few more times than is probably reasonable.

Vaulting is not done trivially. To my understanding it's more or less an at least "three strikes you're out" sort of deal, barring exceptional circumstances. How often are you being executed by the garda?

I do not think the Ba'al Verzi would fly under modern sentiment, even if they were active (or existed?). Forced closure at the hands of DMs kicks up dust, corpsehiding gets a thread every six months, vaulting is the boogeyman, there's no way a Verzi hit would generate anything less than a tantrum (even though, to my remembrance, the price of a failed Verzi hit is the closure of the assassin themselves).

Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: FinalHeaven on November 29, 2022, 11:45:17 AM
Revenant pretty much said it the best.

Personally I think corpse hiding is a terrible mechanic (I have done it and have been the victim of it) because I find the false sense of hope - "Oh, someone will find me, eventually" - to be more upsetting than a firm answer of "Well, this character is done now".

However, until there is a better system in place that forces the exact same level of consequences onto a conflict, it needs to stay.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Chabxxu on November 29, 2022, 11:51:29 AM
Team Garda/Gendarme is definitly not team good.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: cooachlyfe on November 29, 2022, 11:56:52 AM
Quote
I don't know how many levels it would cost me, but you are only proving the fact that players can grief each other even more then is already possible by actually downleveling eachother taking months of progress away from someone who had to spend a considerable amount of time for that. This isn't a solution, this is fuel.

I have little sympathy for high levels involved in conflict; with our rules in place, the character must have sought into the conflict. If it's a high level character, it's likely a veteran. Want less consequences for dying? Be lower level; shorter time to respawn, less XP loss. Or don't get involved in conflict, that also works.

It's this mentality why I rather do something like solo Perfidus than involve myself in roleplay that has any kind of risk.


As for corpsehiding, I think it's lame and a lazy way of solving your problems. Unfortunately bad guys have -literally- nothing else. I like the idea of mortal wounds so it's not a constant back and forth. Perhaps that is a route we should consider.

I also think vaulting is equally lame and lazy as well.

There isn't any fun in no longer playing the character you want to play for an extended amount of time, if not forever.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Darkthrasher on November 29, 2022, 11:58:13 AM
I like Chadyos idea of introducing the rule to prevent corpses from being taken across the core via the vistani carts. Not taking out corpsehiding entirely, but restricting it a little. From what I have found recently is that the corpse hiding can make sense ICly (and sometimes should be hidden as best as possible), but looking for the corpse feels very OOC (even with attempts to make it entirely IC), especially when it makes sense that your character would ICly be looking for the corpse as much as possible.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: ladylena on November 29, 2022, 12:09:46 PM
I like Chadyos idea of introducing the rule to prevent corpses from being taken across the core via the vistani carts. Not taking out corpsehiding entirely, but restricting it a little. From what I have found recently is that the corpse hiding can make sense ICly (and sometimes should be hidden as best as possible), but looking for the corpse feels very OOC (even with attempts to make it entirely IC), especially when it makes sense that your character would ICly be looking for the corpse as much as possible.

that is a good idea and would encourage people to use the mist ways instead!
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Skelni on November 29, 2022, 12:40:11 PM
I feel like we're asking for something out of nothing here.

The crux is that no one wants to be denied being able to play for any reason. It's lame. They don't want to lose control of their character - But ultimately given our environment, what other choice or "punishment" do we have to enforce some power to players to enact things without interference from others?

Seemingly, anytime someone is corpse hidden, people get upset about it. That's to be expected, it's a harsh mechanic. But I also feel like people suspect that it's this permanent, never to be rectified situation at the same time. I recall some corpses that were hidden that no one thought they were going to be found, but in the end they had. And there is the option of coming back on your own after a time, even with an EXP penalty and such. Everyone gets scared thinking that I guess because no one wants to lose levels, sure (though I argue numbers aren't everything).


Is corpse hiding a perfect mechanic? Eh, no, probably not. Can we devise something better? Probably not either. If someone was told they can't play for a week because someone else deemed it so, well, that's the purpose. There's a huge build up to that. We have the opt-in system for a reason. The events leading up to it had to of made sense for it to occur in the first place. And what we have is that the murderer of the other essentially gets rewarded with the effort then with a "timeout" for the murdered. It's the only way to instill any purpose in a world or system like this. I mean just barring the fact that when the corpse is found, the person can be brought back seemingly completely unchanged or worse for wear. Their stats are the same, they might've lost a weapon or coin at worse. They can immediately get back into the fray. There's no real permanence there. So the only real lasting effect it can have is making someone wait and be uninvolved for a while. And I know there's been horror stories of people lost at sea for years on end. I also feel like those people could get back now of their own volition but probably just refuse to.


Death needs to be a consequence. If it's a consequence of player interaction then it needs to have some form of permanence to matter in the first place. Maybe shortened timers to return, or less numerical punishment for it or something. No one wants to be denied playing and impacting things yet it's the only sure proof method to making death matter. If you could just return and respawn instantly with no issue, what'd be the sense. If your corpse just laid there in the middle of the road until someone resurrected it, what'd be the point.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: EO on November 29, 2022, 12:45:47 PM
I like Chadyos idea of introducing the rule to prevent corpses from being taken across the core via the vistani carts. Not taking out corpsehiding entirely, but restricting it a little. From what I have found recently is that the corpse hiding can make sense ICly (and sometimes should be hidden as best as possible), but looking for the corpse feels very OOC (even with attempts to make it entirely IC), especially when it makes sense that your character would ICly be looking for the corpse as much as possible.

It's something we've considered before but it comes with a whole slew of problems. First of all, short of a mechanical system, it'll be a nightmare to police. Secondly, why should you be able to bring your friend's corpse, but not a stranger's? The Vistani don't care whether the dead is your friend or foe.

And then you end up with issues regarding official bounties, where people could essentially avoid them forever by hiding in certain domains. In the past, people would do that in the Mist Camp where there was a misconception it was a safe zone from PvP, and it was rather lame.

In the end we've opted against that. Overall though the most recent iteration of the death system seems to work rather well.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Maffa on November 29, 2022, 12:51:14 PM
What if every time someone corpse another, they both have to get to an agreement about that to do with the corpse? Whats the story? How they both agree for the thing to unfold? Would it be nice if the friends of the dead would go and look for it? or would rather the killer find a creative way (with the dead's permission) to do something with it? Would you like to involve a DM for something even cooler? This is not a end all scenario, this is a powerful chance for storytelling! I'ts a dramatic intersection in the stories of two characters, and they both have stakes on that, the one with the responsibility of managing the corpse right, and the dead as well.

This is what I told myself I would have done if I managed to find myself in such a scenario, this is how i would like to be treated, and how i would like to extend the same should I come out victorious from a PVP.

Corpse hiding is taking agency away from a player about a character. It's a form of policing that is well inside the vigilante: i dont want you to play your character. In a Rp server, IMO, this cant be.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: ladylena on November 29, 2022, 12:59:19 PM
It would be great if we could fully open the line of communication between players. That would result in the best over all for everyone. But in order to do that, we need to have an understanding that that information wont be crossed over from OOC to IC
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: EO on November 29, 2022, 01:01:29 PM
Quote
What if every time someone corpse another, they both have to get to an agreement about that to do with the corpse? Whats the story? How they both agree for the thing to unfold? Would it be nice if the friends of the dead would go and look for it? or would rather the killer find a creative way (with the dead's permission) to do something with it? Would you like to involve a DM for something even cooler? This is not a end all scenario, this is a powerful chance for storytelling! I'ts a dramatic intersection in the stories of two characters, and they both have stakes on that, the one with the responsibility of managing the corpse right, and the dead as well.

Whilst this is admirable, it only works when trust is already there between both parties (which incidentally is our first PvP rule, but that's another matter). Otherwise, this amounts to an OOC opt in/out system, which we've never wanted to implement. OOC opt out systems are particularly problematic and lead to as much resentment if not more. In the end, since you can't be killed unless your character opted in the conflict, the best way to avoid such consequences is to bow out of any conflict, not provoke people, etc.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Skelni on November 29, 2022, 01:03:38 PM
I have seen groups successfully communicate in the past about death of a PC and the involved corpse hiding. And it seemingly went pretty well - Until others caught wind of it and it got very messy very quickly.

I don't think it's so much of an issue as people won't establish a dialogue about conflict and such to one another, but that it's sort of assumed that one side (the losing side in the conflict) will likely have issue with anything that is being established to begin with. After all, you probably wouldn't like it when some guy is holding the key to your survival in his inventory, and he can seemingly just put it down wherever.


It keeps boiling down to just having respect for the environment and to one another. Conflict revolves around this being utilized to a tee.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Maffa on November 29, 2022, 01:07:45 PM
It would be great if we could fully open the line of communication between players. That would result in the best over all for everyone. But in order to do that, we need to have an understanding that that information wont be crossed over from OOC to IC
Considering how much adrenaline i accrued when i had my few bouts of PVP, reaching out OOC is the first thing I do to "neutralize" the rush, and to get immediately cordial with my opponent. I consider DMs and (A)MPC to be trustworthy on account of managing my own agency, they are "selfless" and so they act for the benefit of the whole server (including, hence, mine own). A fellow player has their own agenda, as i have mine. It really is a basic thing to me to reach out OOC and a) normalise the relationship and clear the air out of any IC to OOC aggressivity bleed, and b) try to get to a mutual agreement on what to do next, for mutual satisfaction of every party involved.

Whilst this is admirable, it only works when trust is already there between both parties (which incidentally is our first PvP rule, but that's another matter). Otherwise, this amounts to an OOC opt in/out system, which we've never wanted to implement. OOC opt out systems are particularly problematic and lead to as much resentment if not more. In the end, since you can't be killed unless your character opted in the conflict, the best way to avoid such consequences is to bow out of any conflict, not provoke people, etc.

I am talking about post fact. The path has been walked, the deed is done.

I have seen groups successfully communicate in the past about death of a PC and the involved corpse hiding. And it seemingly went pretty well - Until others caught wind of it and it got very messy very quickly.

I don't think it's so much of an issue as people won't establish a dialogue about conflict and such to one another, but that it's sort of assumed that one side (the losing side in the conflict) will likely have issue with anything that is being established to begin with. After all, you probably wouldn't like it when some guy is holding the key to your survival in his inventory, and he can seemingly just put it down wherever.


It keeps boiling down to just having respect for the environment and to one another. Conflict revolves around this being utilized to a tee.

cant say I know what you are talking about, so i have no references.
Uhm. Say Peter the Loaf kills Jenny Swift. They both agree on a max 3 days corpse hide with some hints around. Jenny's friends dont care and start a manhunt on Peter on full retaliation, and the build goodwill go sour. Is it what you were referring to?
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Darkthrasher on November 29, 2022, 01:09:34 PM
I like Chadyos idea of introducing the rule to prevent corpses from being taken across the core via the vistani carts. Not taking out corpsehiding entirely, but restricting it a little. From what I have found recently is that the corpse hiding can make sense ICly (and sometimes should be hidden as best as possible), but looking for the corpse feels very OOC (even with attempts to make it entirely IC), especially when it makes sense that your character would ICly be looking for the corpse as much as possible.

It's something we've considered before but it comes with a whole slew of problems. First of all, short of a mechanical system, it'll be a nightmare to police. Secondly, why should you be able to bring your friend's corpse, but not a stranger's? The Vistani don't care whether the dead is your friend or foe.

And then you end up with issues regarding official bounties, where people could essentially avoid them forever by hiding in certain domains. In the past, people would do that in the Mist Camp where there was a misconception it was a safe zone from PvP, and it was rather lame.

In the end we've opted against that. Overall though the most recent iteration of the death system seems to work rather well.


Those are good points I didnt think on actually. Policing would be rough.

Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: APorg on November 29, 2022, 01:20:21 PM
Corpse-hiding isn't such an OOC mechanic when you consider that this is a setting with resurrection magic: it's perfectly reasonable to follow up an assassination with "kidnapping" your victim's remains when any level 9 cleric or anyone with relatively common raise item can bring them back.

ICly, it'd be possible to render someone's body down to ashes and toss those ashes into a lava pit until only a True Resurrection or Wish spell could bring them back. So in that respect it's fair to observe that corpse-hiding is protecting the victim from worse consequences.

I think the consequence landscape is already pretty skewed against the aggressor. If my level 2 PC gets murdered, I can respawn two weeks later and act as witness to my own murder, putting my murderer on the Vaulting track. That's an extreme example but it illustrates the point: corpse-hiding isn't the worst consequence you can suffer. It's just the worst consequence that PCs can inflict on one another without the involvement of DMs or Factions with access to a Vault.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Skelni on November 29, 2022, 01:21:53 PM
cant say I know what you are talking about, so i have no references.
Uhm. Say Peter the Loaf kills Jenny Swift. They both agree on a max 3 days corpse hide with some hints around. Jenny's friends dont care and start a manhunt on Peter on full retaliation, and the build goodwill go sour. Is it what you were referring to?
Yeah, that's essentially what I'm getting at.

There's no reason we can't be polite and cordial about things as nasty as corpse hiding and whatnot. Hopefully the intended effects of it are what I described, being that, someone wants to do SOMETHING without interference from the other person, so they corpse hide for a bit. It's just that, not everyone wants to be cordial about it. So it all kind of falls apart and then we get threads like this discussing the whole purpose behind it all.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Maffa on November 29, 2022, 01:31:19 PM
maybe the consequence could be a nice roll on DP :)
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: VaeVictis on November 29, 2022, 01:35:45 PM
I like Chadyos idea of introducing the rule to prevent corpses from being taken across the core via the vistani carts. Not taking out corpsehiding entirely, but restricting it a little. From what I have found recently is that the corpse hiding can make sense ICly (and sometimes should be hidden as best as possible), but looking for the corpse feels very OOC (even with attempts to make it entirely IC), especially when it makes sense that your character would ICly be looking for the corpse as much as possible.

It's something we've considered before but it comes with a whole slew of problems. First of all, short of a mechanical system, it'll be a nightmare to police. Secondly, why should you be able to bring your friend's corpse, but not a stranger's? The Vistani don't care whether the dead is your friend or foe.

And then you end up with issues regarding official bounties, where people could essentially avoid them forever by hiding in certain domains. In the past, people would do that in the Mist Camp where there was a misconception it was a safe zone from PvP, and it was rather lame.

In the end we've opted against that. Overall though the most recent iteration of the death system seems to work rather well.

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. What would be wrong with people sticking to different domains? Is that not what they should do, to avoid the place they have been bountied in if they have any care for their lives at all?

As an aside, I am also among those that believe the Mist Camp is a mistake. That it should be deleted and you just choose where to go from the caravan in the domains themselves rather than automatically to the Mist Camp, and from there to other places.

It's a beautiful looking area but I see it more as a detriment to integrity than a valuable asset.

In response to the original poster:

You are not wrong in those perspectives. It inherently rewards those who have been a part of the community for a long time and have made friends ICly and OOCly in it. Anyone that tells you otherwise either benefits from it and is actively a hypocrite, or just doesn't know any better. Corpsehiding is a lot less effective when you have five to ten friends looking for you, or willing to. I say this as someone that has been corpse-hidden, and has searched for bodies too when my character was involved. I did not get the 'short end of the stick', but I am not blind to the privilege.

The level of consequences is not equal, nor impartial. And it can easily be shrugged off by anyone with staying presence and in the right places. Save for the most determined person stealthing away to change the body's location being very attentive to where a given group has checked already, assuming they're not found and killed for association during the conflict. And that never lasts six months.

Once you become aware of this, you are also aware that there are certain characters (or certain players, regardless of their current character) whom yours will never be able to impose such consequences on. They are free of such, but others of the playerbase at large are not. It such a cliché to see it in a 'justice only serves the rich' kind of way, but it's easy to see as well why would someone feel like it.

And since there are no rules regarding when corpse hiding is fine or not aside from whether you are opted in or not, all bets are off. There are few instances, save when you're reaching or playing a really good aligned character, where you could have your own character think sparing your enemy with no guarantees they'll come back for you as soon as they can is a good idea. So it is always justifiable In-Character. We can cross that one off. The only reason when it's not is when you, yourself, go out of your way to make it not so.

Of all my instances in PvP so far, I have never corpse hidden anyone nor partook in conflict that would have led to the forced closure of another character. (I recall one time my character was in possession of the body of an enemy, and was at odds with his own group because he preferred to resurrect the person and interrogate them rather than immediately corpsehide.) The nuclear option has never been appealing when trying to write a story in a shared space.

Over the years, I've become less invested.

But from a new player perspective? To know, save for the proverbial ten commandments, that it is the wild west and you have no guarantee antagonism of any sort won't lead into your character being perma'd (If you get forcibly shelved for six months by that point you're playing another game entirely, rather than log in to do your daily Pablo Escobar ghost roleplay). Is a lot of weight to have on your mind, specially on a slow progression server. That's six months of your life you're not getting back. Either in levels or in self-resurrection.

I can definitely see that point. I was recently talking to a fellow player and they commented to me that, the thought they could get corpsehidden and essentially removed from the game entirely turned them off until they stopped playing. And I can understand why, too. As a new player to the server, with no friends, no OOC presence, and no guarantees- You're naked in the woods. There's no safety net.

How do I feel about corpsehiding? I think it's neat. I also know it all comes down to players willing to reach a compromise, with or without this mechanic. The fact that it's entirely possible to not have a corpse-hiding mechanic, and for player-characters to die and then make concessions so the conflict ends means this is not impossible, or hard to do in fact. It just has to be encouraged. And repeated instances of failing to do so, punished severely. Was your character defeated? The onus is also on you to reason they were, they lost the conflict and will stay out of it or will concede to the demands of their enemy or captor.

Corpse-hiding in that way takes away from the player responsibility and leaves it to a mechanic. It means your character can be 'Victory or death! I shall never admit defeat, I will make no concessions, die evildoer!' and that is alright because I get to corpse hide you 'justifiably', big boy. It also means I can do it without even trying, which I think is what we could change.

Corpse hiding should be perhaps, per rules, a last restort. Your character after defeat is given a reasonable surrender condition. 'You will not interfere with the business of X and Y again' 'You will not attack me again'. I understand the current design is so you never have to worry about whether either of those two players will follow through because it doesn't matter. It's easy to avoid catastrophizing about the thought of having to deal with problem players and reports about this or that. But I don't think it would be. I think that is just common sense, you already know that they could.

'But what if my character is a bad ass and I want him to keep fighting and never surrender? Accepting defeat is humilliating' If it is in-character, then have them spit on their captors face and get their throat slit for it. Get corpse hidden as it was going to be, and carry on from there. But if you do accept defeat, stick to those terms.

When I was corpse-hidden, I also communicated with the killer to let them know the outcome was acceptable to me, as it was what made the most sense in-character and there was no bad blood between us OOC. They otherwise had no way to know I would not go nuclear on them as well.  Which is something important to keep in mind in a community. You will share a space with them, you will keep seeing them, you will keep playing with them. There is no reason to foster a bad attitude. Or the anxiety that there might be one. (Likewise, when killing someone I communicate OOCly to let them know where the body will be delivered to, what is happening, what to look forward to- But none of that is required. It is appreciated by the other party, it felt right for me to do those things but I was not required to do them.)

It would be nice if it were.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: APorg on November 29, 2022, 02:36:18 PM
I did not get the 'short end of the stick', but I am not blind to the privilege.

Back up here. It's not a privilege, it's earned. Finding good hiding spots is open to anyone: just build a character with decent Stealth, Open Locks, and Search, and you can find them. I was willing to spend hours exploring the server in my first year on this server, and I'm ready to spend hours exploring new and changed areas now. I did it because I like exploring, and it turned out to be useful in the giant Hide and Seek minigame, but it's still a matter of attitude and determination, not something given freely. You can ask why such skill comes to bear in PvP; but why not? Why is button-pressing skill legitimate and hide-and-seek skill illegitimate in PvP?

I also don't think it's particularly accurate or helpful to present matters in terms of monolithic veteran cliques making consequences meaningless for themselves. The last time I went on a corpse search, we had a slew of different experience levels in the group, and we still didn't find the body.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: JayJay on November 29, 2022, 03:42:45 PM
Why rp things you get pvpd over if you don't want pvp?
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: ladylena on November 29, 2022, 04:56:55 PM
Why rp things you get pvpd over if you don't want pvp?

It can be difficult at times if you don't want to pvp. You could end up possessing an item that someone else covets and you may end up dead and hidden for the item without realizing that by having it you were opted in to pvp, or you could over hear some sort of information that was not meant for your ears. This is a server that is heavy into the whole "every action has a reaction", that reaction could be hostility, it could be fear, it could be murder, there are many things that come into play both what we are aware of and what others are. It's the mysteries and joys of a shared narrative.

Maybe we could shift our view from "Player versus Player" and begin to call it "CvC= Character Versus Character".
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: JayJay on November 29, 2022, 05:10:48 PM
How do you accidentally end up with a mythically important item, or secretive information?
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Myrza on November 29, 2022, 05:21:32 PM
Why rp things you get pvpd over if you don't want pvp?

The story is usually born out of conflict unless there is a DM involved, your main conflict is usually with other players. This is what PvP is and most people actually like PvP (like myself.)

However, some people don't like the mechanical aspect of the PvP which is what this topic is around (Corpse Hiding is mostly mechanical). To give an example, I like playing a Guard (nearly all I do on the server) because it brings good and healthy conflict there is plenty of opportunities to create a story. I don't really like the mechanical aspect of the PvP but playing a guard, I should expect to meet it at some point. Should I stop playing a guard just because I don't like mechanical PvP?

Just wanted to give my comment on this, I don't really like the current corpse system, I would rather have people get knocked out or unconscious as we carry them around. The concept of carrying dead bodies around which can be instantly resurrected kind of lessens the impact of death in my opinion.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: ladylena on November 29, 2022, 05:22:17 PM
How do you accidentally end up with a mythically important item, or secretive information?

It can happen. Especially if you're stealthing around. Sneaking around a person can over hear all sorts of things, perhaps a character decided to eavesdrop out of boredom and over hears character b and d plotting a murder or a theft. Or you stumble upon a scene you wish you hadn't. It's very possible to end up learning information that you never wanted to know, or finding an item that may be more than you know.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: APorg on November 29, 2022, 05:24:39 PM
Spying on people isn't an innocent act...
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: JayJay on November 29, 2022, 05:28:40 PM
How do you accidentally end up with a mythically important item, or secretive information?

It can happen. Especially if you're stealthing around. Sneaking around a person can over hear all sorts of things, perhaps a character decided to eavesdrop out of boredom and over hears character b and d plotting a murder or a theft. Or you stumble upon a scene you wish you hadn't. It's very possible to end up learning information that you never wanted to know, or finding an item that may be more than you know.

This is exactly the point. If you place yourself into these compromising positions, you are absolutely responsible for whatever consequences you may incur. Dependent on the severity of that which has been said, or done. It is entirely reasonable and realistic of you to be killed and subsequently disposed of.
Now, this typically isn't immediate if you are able to commit espionage against your fellow player, however it is what you do with said information thereafter, meaning. If you decide to randomly divulge information, involve yourself. Congratulations, you're now involved. This applies equally to all sides of the spectrum without discrimination.

Why bother sneaking around attempting to listen in on conversations such as this if you don't want to be involved?
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Swan on November 29, 2022, 05:31:48 PM
I'd just like to quickly say that if you are a stealther and are going out of your way to eavesdrop on people, you are very obviously and willingly putting yourself at risk. Doing it "out of boredom" doesn't really change the fact that if you are caught listening in on a conversation that was obviously not meant for you, there are probably going to be consequences.

Spying on people isn't an innocent act...

^ Exactly, lmao
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: JayJay on November 29, 2022, 05:39:01 PM
Why rp things you get pvpd over if you don't want pvp?

The story is usually born out of conflict unless there is a DM involved, your main conflict is usually with other players. This is what PvP is and most people actually like PvP (like myself.)

However, some people don't like the mechanical aspect of the PvP which is what this topic is around (Corpse Hiding is mostly mechanical). To give an example, I like playing a Guard (nearly all I do on the server) because it brings good and healthy conflict there is plenty of opportunities to create a story. I don't really like the mechanical aspect of the PvP but playing a guard, I should expect to meet it at some point. Should I stop playing a guard just because I don't like mechanical PvP?

Just wanted to give my comment on this, I don't really like the current corpse system, I would rather have people get knocked out or unconscious as we carry them around. The concept of carrying dead bodies around which can be instantly resurrected kind of lessens the impact of death in my opinion.

Resurrection has always been a mainstay of D&D, while it does in fact cheapen the impact of killing someone it most certainly does not negate the significance of the action.
Violence, and battle are also recurring themes in Dungeons and Dragons. People are killed often, it is not inherently evil, nor good. - Gods of Good, Evil, and Neutrality advocate the killing of foes and it is lauded. The point of the post was to point out that by taking on particular roles, you are consigning yourself to the high possibility of entering into a combative role yourself by playing a character of conflict. It is not to say that you shouldn't take on these roles in my original question, but to point out the fact that we as players willingly enter that domain. That a choice was made, before ever entering the game world.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Famous Seamus on November 29, 2022, 05:45:48 PM
How do you accidentally end up with a mythically important item, or secretive information?

It can happen. Especially if you're stealthing around. Sneaking around a person can over hear all sorts of things, perhaps a character decided to eavesdrop out of boredom and over hears character b and d plotting a murder or a theft. Or you stumble upon a scene you wish you hadn't. It's very possible to end up learning information that you never wanted to know, or finding an item that may be more than you know.

I don't want to get us derailed from the main topic here, but I feel it's important to jump in briefly to add another facet to this. It can also happen by association. Probably half of the PvP-like encounters and arcs (apart from [A]MPCs, since they're permanently opted in) I've been part of during, say, the last year have occurred because of another character's actions (speaking of others in the general sense) and my character being dragged into it by association.

If the question then becomes, "Why are you associating with that person or those people?" I think we'd be stretching the argument a bit. The point is that sometimes you do go looking for trouble, and other times, trouble just falls in your lap while you're just trying to do your own thing.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: JayJay on November 29, 2022, 05:56:21 PM
Quote
I don't want to get us derailed from the main topic here, but I feel it's important to jump in briefly to add another facet to this. It can also happen by association. Probably half of the PvP-like encounters and arcs (apart from [A]MPCs, since they're permanently opted in) I've been part of during, say, the last year have occurred because of another character's actions (speaking of others in the general sense) and my character being dragged into it by association.

If the question then becomes, "Why are you associating with that person or those people?" I think we'd be stretching the argument a bit. The point is that sometimes you do go looking for trouble, and other times, trouble just falls in your lap while you're just trying to do your own thing.
The question isn't why, or who you are associating with but you and your character at the very core of entire issue.
I'd like to believe we have similar experiences regarding the issue, so you could understand my viewpoint on the entire problem.
If you elect to play in any roles deemed to hold, or will hold conflict then you should expect the cruel aspects to go hand-in-hand with the benefits.

Good aligned characters are generally reactive, so what you say makes sense.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Kaninchen on November 29, 2022, 07:43:46 PM
The mechanic isn't perfect, but it's fine. Actions should have consequences. Perspective is also an important thing here.  If Mero were to be corse-hid tonight, that just means Toothpick is unleashed on the server.  That is to say that you can view not being able to play a character as an opportunity to make a new one, try out some different concept.  Losing access to a PC isn't the same thing as not being able to play the game. 

I'll also say corse-hiding happens less often than these posts imply it does.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: VaeVictis on November 30, 2022, 12:19:58 AM
I did not get the 'short end of the stick', but I am not blind to the privilege.

Back up here. It's not a privilege, it's earned. Finding good hiding spots is open to anyone: just build a character with decent Stealth, Open Locks, and Search, and you can find them. I was willing to spend hours exploring the server in my first year on this server, and I'm ready to spend hours exploring new and changed areas now. I did it because I like exploring, and it turned out to be useful in the giant Hide and Seek minigame, but it's still a matter of attitude and determination, not something given freely. You can ask why such skill comes to bear in PvP; but why not? Why is button-pressing skill legitimate and hide-and-seek skill illegitimate in PvP?

I also don't think it's particularly accurate or helpful to present matters in terms of monolithic veteran cliques making consequences meaningless for themselves. The last time I went on a corpse search, we had a slew of different experience levels in the group, and we still didn't find the body.

Rich people earned their money too. It does not make them any less privileged. "A special advantage possessed by a particular person or group". The word, at no point, implies it just happened spontaneously and arbitrarily.

It undeniably exists, however.

I did very much the same things you mentioned, and I just don't see things the same way. I don't believe I mentioned map knowledge in it once, but that's a good addition to the list. On the other hand, trying to reduce the entirety of the situation to 'hide-and-seek RP' is not only misleading, but maliciously facetious and willingly ignores every other point made, whether knowingly or unknowingly. You know well its more nuanced than that if you got that far into the post.

It is good that you enjoy exploring. I do as well. Point in case, I've hired people to do hours long explorations of places, hiring those with high search scores to comb the walls for hidden doors and secrets. In many instances, exploring the same 'boring' place simply for the RP it brings and due to being very interested in just finding secrets or snippets of lore.

That such veterans exist is not an attack on their personality, or existence, or worth. I am one myself. It is a reality of any PW and online gaming community there is. The longer you are a part of it, the more friends and contacts you make, the more you get to know the secrets or tricks.

A passion for exploring is remarkable, but it does not address the points. Or, most importantly, the proposed conclusion.

Particularly since at no point of it would it prevent you from enjoying it, nor would invalidate the 'worth' of said accumulated knowledge at all.

The mechanic isn't perfect, but it's fine. Actions should have consequences. Perspective is also an important thing here.  If Mero were to be corse-hid tonight, that just means Toothpick is unleashed on the server.  That is to say that you can view not being able to play a character as an opportunity to make a new one, try out some different concept.  Losing access to a PC isn't the same thing as not being able to play the game. 

I'll also say corse-hiding happens less often than these posts imply it does.

I agree with you.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Evendur on November 30, 2022, 02:36:27 AM
The dominating opinion on this topic seems to be "the Corpsehiding mechanic has flaws but is needed" which I would agree with.
But this also means that we could have a better system in place and as long as it implements comparable consequences more people would be happy with that.

I hope that will be enough for the team to actually consider an alternative.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: APorg on November 30, 2022, 03:48:32 AM
I did very much the same things you mentioned, and I just don't see things the same way. I don't believe I mentioned map knowledge in it once, but that's a good addition to the list. On the other hand, trying to reduce the entirety of the situation to 'hide-and-seek RP' is not only misleading, but maliciously facetious and willingly ignores every other point made, whether knowingly or unknowingly. You know well its more nuanced than that if you got that far into the post.

I wasn't challenging your entire argument. I was challenging specific language that is improper, incorrect, and divisive. Like here, where you are calling me "maliciously facetious". You are completely out of line. This is bad faith.

I am not denying that the advantage of map knowledge exists. I am denying that it is an entrenched sort of "class divide" , which is what your language suggests it is. There is nothing "special" about the advantage earned here and to try to portray it through the analogy of the rich-poor comes with a lot of baggage, and is flawed best, offensive at worst. It is simply wrong to use the word "privilege" to describe this, and if you are going to double down on its use, go ahead, but it just decreases the clarity of your argument.

I'm also denying certain of your conclusions, such as that veterans are immune to consequences. I think the idea that anyone can easily drum up enough help to find a corpse-hidden body so as to "shrug it off" is fraught with biased assumptions.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: JayJay on November 30, 2022, 04:18:37 AM
Well said.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: BraveSirRobin on November 30, 2022, 06:04:45 AM
I think it is safe to assume that there are players whom play primarily with their friends, and that because they do, will usually have a ready plethora of friends who will search for them. I wouldn't deny that; I've witnessed it regularly on this server for years.

What I disagree with is the lack if generosity when calling them cliques. It's such an overused term to define basically anyone who regularly plays the game together, and adds an unnecessary stigma.

This is a video game, at the end of the day. It isn't a simulation, and it isn't PnP. People play with their friends as a social activity, make characters together in group concepts and are generally more well-placed in the server politick as a result. My personal advice would be to make friends, work concepts and ideas, or join in on someone else's ideas to diversify the starting portfolio of contacts your character knows.

Making a lone wolf with the intention to naturally meet and form friendships with people spontaneously who play when you do, match your time zones, or try to run a faction with can be very frustrating due to a myriad of OOC realities. This also means that if your character dies, and you need someone to look for them, the same frustration can accompany it.

My advice in this regard would be to simply set your expectations for reliable comrades with those whom they were made to pair with, and don't put too many eggs in one basket. Have an alt, run the alt while the main is cooling down on dungeons. Run multiple alts. Who cares. The currently server XP Cap encourages multiple characters to circle-dungeoneer with. If you have a back-up, losing the primary won't sting quite so much.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: APorg on November 30, 2022, 06:36:37 AM
I think it is safe to assume that there are players whom play primarily with their friends, and that because they do, will usually have a ready plethora of friends who will search for them. I wouldn't deny that; I've witnessed it regularly on this server for years.

Yes. But I don't think even many veteran players are that good at the hide-and-seek minigame, frankly; and you can't assume those who are, will have the time. That's what I mean by fraught assumptions.

Certainly none of this justifies abusing the definition of the word "privilege" (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/privilege) to provocatively imply there is a set of people for whom no consequences can be imposed. In the five past incidents of corpse-hiding I can personally recall, one was never found and had to be respawned, one was found by sheer dumb luck, and three were negotiated out. None of this is consequence-free.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: VaeVictis on November 30, 2022, 09:56:30 AM
I did very much the same things you mentioned, and I just don't see things the same way. I don't believe I mentioned map knowledge in it once, but that's a good addition to the list. On the other hand, trying to reduce the entirety of the situation to 'hide-and-seek RP' is not only misleading, but maliciously facetious and willingly ignores every other point made, whether knowingly or unknowingly. You know well its more nuanced than that if you got that far into the post.

I wasn't challenging your entire argument. I was challenging specific language that is improper, incorrect, and divisive. Like here, where you are calling me "maliciously facetious". You are completely out of line. This is bad faith.

I am not denying that the advantage of map knowledge exists. I am denying that it is an entrenched sort of "class divide" , which is what your language suggests it is. There is nothing "special" about the advantage earned here and to try to portray it through the analogy of the rich-poor comes with a lot of baggage, and is flawed best, offensive at worst. It is simply wrong to use the word "privilege" to describe this, and if you are going to double down on its use, go ahead, but it just decreases the clarity of your argument.

I'm also denying certain of your conclusions, such as that veterans are immune to consequences. I think the idea that anyone can easily drum up enough help to find a corpse-hidden body so as to "shrug it off" is fraught with biased assumptions.
I find myself your own presentation to be in bad faith, and I feel the perpetuation of the angle it takes to be mildly disingenious in the way it comes off, though I don't believe it to be intentional. Building it up against the idea that there is something to be said about what is ultimately naturally occurring. In this or any other server, or community. Your choice of words would make it seem as if their worth, or rectitude about possessing of such is being called into question. It is not. It never has been.

The word chosen fit the description, by definition.

Cambride Dictionary (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/privilege): "A special advantage or authority possessed by a particular person or group."

I regret you feel otherwise. We can agree to disagree on it. Perhaps we had different definitions in mind, which is why I already quoted the one I was using.

You don't consider yourself privileged over a new player with no knowledge of the server, no friends or contacts IC or OOC, and no presence. Security and knowledge from years of playing the server, and learning the many, many FOIG nuances of it. I do consider myself privileged in that regard, with all the knowledge acquired, acquaitances and friends I've made over the years, and I can sympathize with the insecurity mentioned by new or prospective players when they feel anxious at the possibility of being corpse-hid versus the calm that is acquired after years of play, or having an established character with the advantages it affords. The dread is not because it will, but because it could. And you just don't know.

I think it is safe to assume that there are players whom play primarily with their friends, and that because they do, will usually have a ready plethora of friends who will search for them. I wouldn't deny that; I've witnessed it regularly on this server for years.

Yes.

That was all.

Back to the main topic:

My desire is to propose (rules as written) that characters should be offered terms of surrender after defeat, before resorting to corpse hiding. This would help curb everyone's dread about the subject. If the character accepts, they must abide by it and they are spared it. They roleplay out their defeat and the consequences. If they don't want to capitulate they are free to ride it out to the end and be hidden.

I am not talking about 'opt in', because conflict between characters is natural and one of the main sources of entertainment and consquences. I am talking about corpse-hiding alone.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: APorg on November 30, 2022, 10:18:43 AM
Again, there is nothing "special" about the advantage. Anyone can gain it.

You have pre-emptively tried to portray people who disagree with you as hypocrites, labelled me as "maliciously facetious" when I called corpse-hiding a hide-and-seek game (Which it is. I did not say it was a good game. Or that it is a perfectly fair and balanced game. But it is a game.), and now "disingenuous" because I haven't combed through every dictionary I could find to discovers a definition of the word "privilege" that agrees with yours. I'm not going to debate you. I'm just going to start mashing the report button every time I see more of this pattern of behaviour to minimise the validity of other people's experiences. It's disrespectful. Stop it.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: MAB77 on November 30, 2022, 10:42:33 AM
I will ask everyone here to take a step back and focus on the subject at hand please or we'll close the thread.

For my part, my experience is that corpsehiding rarely escalates into an issue where DMs have to intervene. Not always, but most of the time it is done somewhat reasonably (and that for the extremely few times where it actually happen). I see little need to act directly against it.

Perhaps what we need are simply alternatives on what could be done with a player corpse. Ransoming corpses is already something that can be done, and probably is the best way to go RP wise. An idea that was once proposed and that I like was the possibility of bringing a corpse to a darkling to revive it, but in so doing afflicting the character with a temporary curse, something that lasts 2-3 months. If you would have other suggestions, lay them here.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Exordium on November 30, 2022, 10:42:57 AM
Yeah, please tone down with the language that is easily interpreted as very accusatory (or borderline insulting). Otherwise, we'll have to close the topic or do some other moderation stuff.

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to this idea that there's a degree of privilege for being a veteran player. But privilege is often taken with a very negative load. There are privileges that are basically impossible to avoid; if someone understands a system better than someone else, they have an advantage. I'd propose that advantage is the more accurate and less loaded term here.

The new player experience is something that has been attempted to be improved many times over PoTM's history. The developers, DMs, mods, and CCs are definitely not unempathetic to the fact that newbies can feel quite overwhelmed here. I don't feel corpsehiding is really a big factor in that, though.

It is OK to disagree with a mechanic and propose its changing. But please do it constructively, in this case, meaning without pre-emptively accusing others of hypocrisy or so. Phrasing yourself constructively and politely will help with getting your point across, too.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Avela on November 30, 2022, 12:12:34 PM
I've taken part in corpse hunting a bit, so I guess I'll add a little, though to be honest I've only been the one to look for the corpse- never the one to hide it or be important enough to be slayed and hidden (though the latter is an achievement I strive towards to one day have accomplished)

I will say, from the standpoint of -looking- for a corpse is not overly thrilling in my opinion. Initially there is a lot of excitement and this feeling of priority... though I feel like that quickly devolves into my character running around maps aimlessly by themselves after not finding the body a couple of days later. And to me that's -painfully- boring. But I do it because it is more often than not something my character would do. Even if you have a hunting buddy, which does significantly make the RP, well, -there-, it can get dull. Although I'm sure circumstances like who your character is, what they know, what skills they have, all impact the outcome- and my characters tend to be more RP so their practical skills can be limited.

I'm not in love with it, but I think it should definitely stay a thing. People can be resurrected but only if you have the body right there? It seems pretty natural villains would go and hide the bodies at least in some circumstances. Although I also agree kidnapping and interrogation, etc, would leave more room for actual RP at least with the victim and the kidnapper, and people could still go looking for the one that was taken. Though at this point kidnapping is, as far as I'm aware, done via some method of corpsing somebody and bringing them over somewhere to be raised again. Would be cool if we could subdue people and drag them off without killing them, as I think that's a little more realistic and less, well, bloody, but I don't know how that would be implemented.

Overall though, I think the system is flawed, but fine. It's gotten us this far, and I haven't heard about a drove of massive issues surrounding it because people tend to conduct themselves fine. But again, limited experience, and by the time I got to this thread there were -so- many responses that I mostly just skimmed through to be completely honest...

TDLR: Do I think corpse hiding should stay a thing? Yes. Would I be upset if there were changes made to said corpse hiding? Most likely not.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: ladylena on November 30, 2022, 12:23:24 PM
I will ask everyone here to take a step back and focus on the subject at hand please or we'll close the thread.

For my part, my experience is that corpsehiding rarely escalates into an issue where DMs have to intervene. Not always, but most of the time it is done somewhat reasonably (and that for the extremely few times where it actually happen). I see little need to act directly against it.

Perhaps what we need are simply alternatives on what could be done with a player corpse. Ransoming corpses is already something that can be done, and probably is the best way to go RP wise. An idea that was once proposed and that I like was the possibility of bringing a corpse to a darkling to revive it, but in so doing afflicting the character with a temporary curse, something that lasts 2-3 months. If you would have other suggestions, lay them here.

Ressurection with a curse is really cool! I guess you could also go down the doctor morreau road and attempt to attach extra or foreign things which could make the character quite disturbing and direct them to some sort of surgeon or something for removal.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: zDark Shadowz on November 30, 2022, 01:29:51 PM
I don't want to wake up with a tail.

A way to subdual people into unconsciousness instead of dead bodies would be nice. Instead of being sent to the near ethereal on a subdual-strike below -1 HP they would be sent to a black room, that either after X amount of time has them wake up with a daze/ & heavy exhaustion effect (concussion) or can be woken up earlier with smelling salts.

Being able to put people unconscious would be useful in PvP in groups since the current bleedout-healup mechanic makes it awkward to keep folks entirely out of the fight, and killing folks outright instead of rendering them unconscious for carrying means kidnapping / interrogation requires raise dead.

It'd also allow some intermediary roleplay between a fight and a corpsehide to occur, since they can be taken away unconscious, revived, only to be told whats about to happen to them before being slain (and then having an opportunity for a last ditch negotiation & conversation with their captors.)
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: APorg on November 30, 2022, 01:32:00 PM
^ Strong agreement. The inability to abduct a PC without either their full OOC cooperation or killing them creates an awkward type of escalation in itself.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: ladylena on November 30, 2022, 02:22:31 PM
being able to do that would be the absolute best solution to so many issues.

It can be difficult to do it properly unless you have massive stealth or constantly emote it, sneaks can see things like a character following another and assume something instead of the reality of the situation. So yeah a way to carry around an unconcious character would really solve a lot of issues around corpsing characters.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: HirtZirk on November 30, 2022, 03:30:40 PM
I vote for :
-Vistanie make pay the same amount it would cost to raise the body to move it to another domain.
-PVP badly impairing a body = perma death

Hiding body should be ok with those two modification since less incentive and existing alternative.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on November 30, 2022, 04:00:18 PM
Just posting to support the "subdual alternative to corpse" because I have always liked it a lot.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: MAB77 on November 30, 2022, 04:45:21 PM
I vote for :
-Vistanie make pay the same amount it would cost to raise the body to move it to another domain.
-PVP badly impairing a body = perma death

Hiding body should be ok with those two modification since less incentive and existing alternative.

The Vistani suggestion cannot be implemented for reasons EO already explained.

As for the second, we will never ever give players the capacity to force closure another. It is resolutely against our philosophy and intent.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: TacticalFerret on November 30, 2022, 07:27:52 PM
Rather than bemoan a system that emphasizes consequences for IC actions, perhaps we should be encouraging the "victim" to closure their characters in these instances.

I am fully aware of how much it sucks to have your corpse hidden and have your most beloved character unavailable to play for a time. But this mindset of "I must finish telling my story" is, in my mind, really toxic. There's nothing stopping anyone from creating a new character that they will inevitably fall in love with.

The story must come to an end at some point. I am aligned with this. There is a risk of a character's chapter being cut short by nature of engaging in cooperative storytelling with others.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Forte on November 30, 2022, 10:54:47 PM
Quote
I don't know how many levels it would cost me, but you are only proving the fact that players can grief each other even more then is already possible by actually downleveling eachother taking months of progress away from someone who had to spend a considerable amount of time for that. This isn't a solution, this is fuel.

I have little sympathy for high levels involved in conflict; with our rules in place, the character must have sought into the conflict. If it's a high level character, it's likely a veteran. Want less consequences for dying? Be lower level; shorter time to respawn, less XP loss. Or don't get involved in conflict, that also works.

The rules barely accommodate the actual intricacies of involved conflict. 'Want less consequences, be lower level' when half the the enjoyment of playing the game is the progression and roleplay involved WITH progressing as players, this seems shortsighted, and mildly rude, at worst.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: noah25 on November 30, 2022, 11:10:10 PM
As someone who has been corpse hid on multiple characters and been mad about it every time at the time, I actually don't think corpse hiding is the issue. The mechanic itself makes sense and isn't, at least in my experience, what leaves a bad taste in your mouth. It's how the PVP comes to be and how it plays out. In my experience when I have had bad PVP experiences the common denominator has been:

-Poor communication between those involved about what the final outcome might look like

-Ambiguity around what we have and haven't consented or bought into

-Disagreement around understanding of what the PVP rules are in extremely bizarre and hard to anticipate circumstances

-One or more parties becoming more concerned with winning than storytelling

When I sat down and thought about it I never had any issue with the fact my body was hid. It felt like a natural consequence. Its WHY I WAS DEAD that always bothered me. My advice would be worry less about the mechanics of the PVP and more about:

-Am I ready to let this character go?
-Is this a player/players I want to be involved in PVP with? Some players I just know im not compatible with and I will avoid them.
-Is a physical altercation the next right step? It always sounds fun, but its usually an hour of chasing each other and adrenaline pumping and then the story arc is over and someone is upset. Usually, finding ways to weaken each other or increase tension are far more rewarding than drawing the sword.
-Am I clear on the PVP rules? They are fairly broadly open to interpretation. The longer I have been on the server the more I have tried to avoid potential gray area and spend more time collaborating with the player I am in conflict with rather than trying to best them.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Day Old Bread on November 30, 2022, 11:15:49 PM
I wonder if it would be possible to insert a mechanic that counted the number of times a body was badly impared and then open a dialogue that suggests character closure after a specified amount.

The idea being something like this:

"Hello prisoner,

It appears your corpse has been badly impared 23 times. While there is no requirement to closure your character, and none but a DM can enforce this closure, it might be time to start thinking about moving on to to a new adventure and letting this one end for the betterment of the community as a whole.

We wish you the very best of luck. Blah blah blah"

If it were possible, that script could potentially even be scripted to pop up after lets say 10th level or something. It imposes nothing, only suggests. I think something like that would go a long way to encourage players to start fresh and let the past go.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Famous Seamus on November 30, 2022, 11:38:53 PM
I wonder if it would be possible to insert a mechanic that counted the number of times a body was badly impared and then open a dialogue that suggests character closure after a specified amount.

The idea being something like this:

"Hello prisoner,

It appears your corpse has been badly impared 23 times. While there is no requirement to closure your character, and none but a DM can enforce this closure, it might be time to start thinking about moving on to to a new adventure and letting this one end for the betterment of the community as a whole.

We wish you the very best of luck. Blah blah blah"

If it were possible, that script could potentially even be scripted to pop up after lets say 10th level or something. It imposes nothing, only suggests. I think something like that would go a long way to encourage players to start fresh and let the past go.

I don't mean for this to come across the wrong way, but it seems to me that such a script could be mistaken as condescending and slightly belittling, even if it isn't meant to be. Being badly impaired is frustrating enough without having to get a popup encouraging you to kill off the character, especially if the death and impairment happen due to an accident (e.g., friendly fire) or an unexpected fluke, so to speak.

Moreover, it seems unnecessary to nudge players to closure a character. Each player is the chief actor/author of their character's story, and while some have realized their craft more fully than others, we should trust that they're sufficiently attuned to their character enough to know when feels like a good time to closure. If the argument is that enough players aren't realizing that closure is a fulfilling option, it may just be because they don't yet feel fulfilled doing it. They'll know when the time is right for them.

Having said that, if the idea is to encourage players to expand their horizons, up to and including closure, after being badly impaired X number of times (or even the first time), a script that explains what being badly impaired is and encourages creativity doesn't seem completely unfitting. For instance:

"Hello, prisoner,

"It appears your corpse has been badly impaired. This means your character has either died due to tremendous violence or has had their remains butchered or desecrated after their death. Both of these could be considered deeply traumatic experiences. We encourage you to consider what impact (lasting or otherwise) such would have on your character upon their return to life or--if you wish--whether this results in their final death. Understand that nothing is required, but that this presents another roleplay opportunity for you.

"We wish you the very best. Etc. Etc. Etc."

I've seen several characters acquire physical or psychological scars as the result of being badly impaired. While impairment--whether the first or fifteenth time--can be an opportunity to lower the curtain for the final time, it can just as easily (if you'll forgive the pun) breathe new life into a story or give it a new direction.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Day Old Bread on November 30, 2022, 11:46:21 PM
I wonder if it would be possible to insert a mechanic that counted the number of times a body was badly impared and then open a dialogue that suggests character closure after a specified amount.

The idea being something like this:

"Hello prisoner,

It appears your corpse has been badly impared 23 times. While there is no requirement to closure your character, and none but a DM can enforce this closure, it might be time to start thinking about moving on to to a new adventure and letting this one end for the betterment of the community as a whole.

We wish you the very best of luck. Blah blah blah"

If it were possible, that script could potentially even be scripted to pop up after lets say 10th level or something. It imposes nothing, only suggests. I think something like that would go a long way to encourage players to start fresh and let the past go.

I don't mean for this to come across the wrong way, but it seems to me that such a script could be mistaken as condescending and slightly belittling, even if it isn't meant to be. Being badly impaired is frustrating enough without having to get a popup encouraging you to kill off the character, especially if the death and impairment happen due to an accident (e.g., friendly fire) or an unexpected fluke, so to speak.

Moreover, it seems unnecessary to nudge players to closure a character. Each player is the chief actor/author of their character's story, and while some have realized their craft more fully than others, we should trust that they're sufficiently attuned to their character enough to know when feels like a good time to closure. If the argument is that enough players aren't realizing that closure is a fulfilling option, it may just be because they don't yet feel fulfilled doing it. They'll know when the time is right for them.

Having said that, if the idea is to encourage players to expand their horizons, up to and including closure, after being badly impaired X number of times (or even the first time), a script that explains what being badly impaired is and encourages creativity doesn't seem completely unfitting. For instance:

"Hello, prisoner,

"It appears your corpse has been badly impaired. This means your character has either died due to tremendous violence or has had their remains butchered or desecrated after their death. Both of these could be considered deeply traumatic experiences. We encourage you to consider what impact (lasting or otherwise) such would have on your character upon their return to life or--if you wish--whether this results in their final death. Understand that nothing is required, but that this presents another roleplay opportunity for you.

"We wish you the very best. Etc. Etc. Etc."

I've seen several characters acquire physical or psychological scars as the result of being badly impaired. While impairment--whether the first or fifteenth time--can be an opportunity to lower the curtain for the final time, it can just as easily (if you'll forgive the pun) breathe new life into a story or give it a new direction.

You get it! I was being slightly comical with the wording, but the intent is the same. The idea being that the player involved should take the time to evaluate what it means, why it happened and how it will affect them moving forward.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Famous Seamus on November 30, 2022, 11:50:59 PM
You get it! I was being slightly comical with the wording, but the intent is the same. The idea being that the player involved should take the time to evaluate what it means, why it happened and how it will affect them moving forward.

Ah. I regret taking that too literally.  :D   I do agree that considering new angles is definitely worth it. Good thought.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Phayviel on December 01, 2022, 07:13:13 AM
Bit of a sidetrack, sorry. But I had never heard of corpse hiding before this or hadn't seen it in any other server. And reading it, I'm having some questions that might help any other newbies reading, too.

- How often does this happen? How likely it is going to happen if I just play normally?

- How is this moderated? Is it possible that PvP-optimized character Edgelordus Mortus The Third will just jump up in and practically perma-kill me just because someone had a slow day at work? Is it going to happen now just because I made this post?

- How likely is it that playing on this server, this is going to happen eventually? Because it sounds incredibly tedious and anti-RP just from the descriptions here.

I would love to hear this since it would make it easier to figure out how much I actually want to mentally invest here in long-term stuff.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Madame Trousers Son on December 01, 2022, 07:23:39 AM
How likely it is to happen depends on your approach to PvP. If you jump in and actively involve yourself in high action PvP then it's more likely to happen.

Corpsehiding can't just happen on a whim. It has to happen for strictly IC reasons, as part of the PvP process and following a reasonable escalation. When the process isn't followed, or where someone leaps to corpsehiding someone for trivial conflict, the DMs should step in if you contact them.

Corpsehiding is relatively rare and most people will never be corpsehidden. Generally speaking, Edgelordus Mortus The Third is more likely to get corpsehidden than his potential victims.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: MatticusCaesar on December 01, 2022, 07:47:32 AM
Bit of a sidetrack, sorry. But I had never heard of corpse hiding before this or hadn't seen it in any other server. And reading it, I'm having some questions that might help any other newbies reading, too.

- How often does this happen? How likely it is going to happen if I just play normally?

- How is this moderated? Is it possible that PvP-optimized character Edgelordus Mortus The Third will just jump up in and practically perma-kill me just because someone had a slow day at work? Is it going to happen now just because I made this post?

- How likely is it that playing on this server, this is going to happen eventually? Because it sounds incredibly tedious and anti-RP just from the descriptions here.

I would love to hear this since it would make it easier to figure out how much I actually want to mentally invest here in long-term stuff.

Fresh eyes with a fresh perspective!  Thank you for asking these high-level questions, as sometimes it's real easy for us longer-timers to forget to look at the forest through the trees.

It's not a super-common thing, but if you intend to engage in antagonistic role play with other PCs, (A)MPCs, Factions, and on occasion with certain NPCs, it is a possible outcome.

Players should generally be exercising restraint with this, but ultimately it is the DM team that will deal with any foul-play here, both literally and figuratively.  Corpse hiding should never happen as a result of OOC discussions, opinions, metagaming, etc.  One of the server rules is to NOT engage in IC PvP with someone with whom you are having OOC problems.  Murders, assassinations, and corpse-hiding ultimately all require IC RP build up with opt-outs given.  If you persist in your antagonizing IC behavior, though...

If you think you have been wronged as a result of an improper PvP action, get screenshots of any dialog/actions and report it to a DM ASAP.  If you can't get a hold of a DM, a Community Counselor (CC) can pass it along to the DM team as well.

How likely it is depends on the kinds of role play you intend to engage in.  If your play style is generally just to do some dungeoning and basic RP, then the likelyhood you will ever be corpse-hidden is very low.

The more involved you get with factions-at-odds, (A)MPC hunting, or generally antagonistic role play (including behaving in a manner where some local law enforcement puts a bounty out on you), the higher the risk you run of your character being slain and "corpsenapped." 

You should NEVER just be randomly killed and corpse-hidden without an IC justification, though.  Because there is a shared narrative in progress and there may be degrees of separation between characters, sometimes there might appear to be a disconnect between your actions and the consequences: 
--Maybe the aggrieved party waits a couple of months in the hopes you let your guard down. 
--Maybe the IC complaint doesn't appear directly - such as if you engage in IC slander/libel and word gets back to the aggrieved party indirectly
--Maybe you choose to not answer the summons of the law
There are a thousand reasons this could happen, but there should always be an opportunity offered to deescalate the situation on PotM.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Phayviel on December 01, 2022, 08:09:39 AM
Oh, wow, thank you! Those are some extremely detailed answers and pretty much answer all my questions and then some. I think this thread made it all sound more worrying than it really is. And I'm glad I read this thread because it all gives a sense of how things work in here as opposed to some other long-time NWN worlds!
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: Maffa on December 01, 2022, 08:18:02 AM
To pile onto what Matticus has said, in my 2+ years I've been playing in this server, dealing with MPCs and taking part in a few high stake plots, I have PvP'd with fellow players only twice, and I have never corpshidden nor I have corpshidden anyone. I have taken part in a few "corpse hunts" of people that had a very different play style than mine, and the more I had the more fool's errands they looked like to me. The very last one, the one that spurred this thread, I have gone purely tlfor RP purposes and the pleasure of being with those that were with me, both IC and OOC than for any hopes nor expectations to find anything.

I would add that the existence of this thread is a proof that this event is as rare as it is feared, so don't fret  :D
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: MatticusCaesar on December 01, 2022, 08:21:13 AM
Yeah, corpse hiding, and antagonistic PvP combat in general, probably account for less than 0.001% of the overall activity that goes on in PotM day-to-day.

Characters argue in game and have their spats, but most resolve it and move on from it pretty quickly.

The reason it might look worse than it is is because when it -does- happen, it's usually pretty big, loud IC news that spreads like wildfire, especially if a well-known or well-liked character is the victim.
Title: Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
Post by: MAB77 on December 01, 2022, 08:24:00 AM
To add to what MatticusCaesar said, the key concept about PvP here is the notion of opting-in.

In a nutshell PvP occurs between willing participants. It is/shoud be the result of multiple RP encounters escalating into conflict as part of the story narrative, or at the very least the inescapable conclusion to an action so daring that you just can't escape the consequences. For instance, if you steal from the Count, there would be a bounty on your head and it would be fair game to hunt you down.

PvP leading to corpsehiding is a very rare event to be honest. It will only happen to you if you willingly opt-in into a conflict.

The full rules about PvP are here (https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=2863.msg34637#msg34637).