Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Public (OOC) => Setting and Lore Discussion => Topic started by: Maiyannah on November 27, 2022, 11:22:04 AM
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So when I was entering the server, so as to not be entirely ignorant and out of place, I did some background reading before I really got into it with Arthiel.
One of the things I read was that in Bavoria, all magic outside of healing magic is the subject of a great amount of superstition and fear.
Despite this, there have been several instances in the outskirts where people have quite openly and flagrantly displayed either arcane/magical items, or the spells. In one case, it was even in the view of one of the guards.
So I was wondering a few things:
1] Is my understanding correct? If not, could someone clarify the matter?
2] If it is a correct understanding, why are such displays accepted?
3] What would be the expected response to such?
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1) You're correct.
2) Mostly, casting around Barovian NPCs is handled by the OCR system. It takes a DM to get involved to bring a peasant lynch mob to bear, but it has happened in the past.
3) The OCR system makes NPCs react angrily and eventually become hostile. In 99% of cases that's probably enough. If you feel concerned that people are serially abusing magic in public spaces, feel free to contact the DM team about it with examples and screenshots.
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I suppose I'm thinking more in terms of my character than the NPCs; I don't think its reasonable to expect the NPCs are going to react like that when, from a player perspective, I know it involves DM involvement. I would certainly contact them if there were something just egregious going around though!
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If you're playing a Barovian PC, it's totally reasonable to react to spellcasting by screaming "WITCH!" and totally freaking out. There's a witch in your midst, using vile hell-magic bought from demons to corrupt your unborn children into monsters. This is something almost every Barovian knows to be true. No one would do such an evil thing so brazenly without being monstrously evil themselves. You are in danger.
If you're playing an outlander PC, it might not be too unreasonable to privately conclude that Barovians are an open, tolerant sort of people who are largely fine with magic and witches, so long as you don't do it in their face. Most of them have a witch friend or dozen. It's more that casting in front of someone is rude, a social faux pas, than it is a threat or moral failing. Even though that's somewhat at odds with their characterisation in the canon.
Without magical buffs and magical items, it's nearly impossible to dungeon, so almost every single Barovian PC is going to be the exception to the rule that Barovians react to any hint of magic with unimaginable terror. But nearly every Barovian NPC is going to be the former rather than the latter.
Though note also:
- Vallaki, as a town, canonically has a thriving mage scene. In Wachter Province, they just straight-up drown witches with the blessing of the House of Wachter and root out any suspected witchcraft with brutal prejudice. But in Vallaki, there's a lot of secret dabbling happening beneath the surface, out of sight of their suspicious neighbours.
- Magic isn't illegal in Barovia, because Count Strahd uses it as a tool by which he keeps order. Count Strahd is widely suspected to be a witch, and known to employ his own tyrant mages, which is part of why people fear and despise both him and magic: they're living in an evil magocracy.
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Well, to me, being in a professedly-superstitious place with witchhunts, it is a bit of an immersion-break to have people casting spells in plain view of others, but rather than just assume they're being dumb or out of character, I prefer to check my assumptions first.
Arthiel's kind of grown a policy of turning a blind eye to those whom are smart enough to keep the magic arms and spells to the dungeons, but avoids those whom are more open with it. She's an outlander (from Faerun), but she's not blind to the local population, and been around long enough now to get the basics.
That does bring up a good further question: what magical items would be acceptable and not? I can imagine, as an obvious example, a healing potion is likely OK - but I would not expect that a potion of invisibility would be as easily-accepted.
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You're right. Magic in Barovia is not accepted. It's like the medieval witch hunts, but not quite that bad. Healing magic is good, but kinda iffy. Arcane magic is really iffy, it's the cause of caliban.
If you cast magic around NPCs they will react automatically, and if you do magic infront of a PC garda they may also react. I've seen people punished for it. I am playing a native mage from Vallaki, and it's something that you can do, and it's a fun different type of character to play. Something so secretive that if it got out it could ruin everything, or change nothing at all, or even open new realms of rp!
Now, it's not Tepest. Tepest is where all magic is illegal and it is the inquisition into the witch hunts. Barovia is the secret mage place, Tepest is the banned mage place. And Dementlieu is the learned mage place. (aka: Barovian witches are hush hush about their magic, tepest witches do so in absolute secrecy or get killed, and Dementlieu sees wizards as being ok, but not sorcerers)
Now that being said, there is nothing against playing a Barovian who has had a particularly bad run in with magic and as such sees it as a threat more than others. Each character is going to be unique. Even my mage would react badly to seeing a necromancer summon the dead, or conjure a demon.
If you think the garda are too permissive with magic, play a harsh garda! I remember in the past there were garda who would not allow people to sell obviously magical items (scrolls, wands, staffs, glowy items).
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Despite this, there have been several instances in the outskirts where people have quite openly and flagrantly displayed either arcane/magical items, or the spells. In one case, it was even in the view of one of the guards.
If it's in front of the guard NPCs, commoners, Radu, nobles etc, each spell cast is scripted to add to the Outcast Rating of a character, which makes the NPCs hostile & fearful to them once it goes over a certain number when they encounter any NPC from that area.
So don't worry, anyone casting in front of guards / garda, commoners etc will quickly find themselves ostracized from society without needing DM intervention.
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NPCs react appropriately, and escalate appropriately over time, to OCR events like vraja use. PC behaviors are another matter though.
I play a native Barovian and make it a habit to try and react with a certain amount of fear of other people's use of vraja by using RP and emotes (e.g. walking around and backing away slowly, making "bad juju" hand gestures, talking about curses and bad omens, appearing startled, looking cautious, etc.). Other native Barovian PCs might show some overt hostility, but it is difficult to do this effectively when you are essentially thrown together with outsiders and have to tolerate the fact that they do magic if you want to adventure together. PCs basically have to fake fear and hostility, but tolerate it to a certain extent, otherwise they are basically forced to not interact with everyone else who might use magic (which reduces the player pool you can interact with significantly).
Many PCs do try and RP both the use and reaction to use very effectively. However, I agree that it would be nice if all vraja-using PCs were just a tiny bit more self-aware of their surroundings and RP'd the use of magic more sensibly and consistent with the setting (e.g. out of view, in secret, all hush-hush, looking over their shoulder, etc.).
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The biggest issue, and one that really does break immersion quite a bit, is the fluffy snowflake carebare attitudes that many players have toward their own characters and what should or should not be acceptable.
My native Barovian will "tolerate" witchcraft to a degree, simply because she has little ability to do anything about it. But she certainly doesn't like it and acts appropriately. Others in the garda faction are more lenient and less lenient. My outlander characters are usually somewhere in between blatant magic users who are smart enough to move out of earshot of any guards to secretive about their abilities within Barovia.
The main crux of the issue is that after a time, it becomes very very difficult to hide magic from others and eventaully word spreads so many people have taken to just ignoring the setting and casting freely within Barovia.
Personally, I hope their OCR goes up to an outrageous level and they're eventually cast right out of our lovely homeland.
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You're right that magic isn't liked. People should be more responsible with it. It is immersion breaking when it happens so often.
Ultimately it's down to the players to portray that better. And many choose not to. It sucks but that's how it is. Until folks show more restraint with it, it won't really become the vilified thing it's made out to be.
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Next NCE concept: Tepestani inquisitors on the witch hunt to end all witch hunts; outlanders.
But in all seriousness I think part of the issue is a lack of native characters and a surpluss of outlander characters. It can be hard to solidify the setting when there are vastly more outlanders than natives playing. Best thing we can do is to play more natives and help bring the server back to canon setting material.
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Next NCE concept: Tepestani inquisitors on the witch hunt to end all witch hunts; outlanders.
But in all seriousness I think part of the issue is a lack of native characters and a surpluss of outlander characters. It can be hard to solidify the setting when there are vastly more outlanders than natives playing. Best thing we can do is to play more natives and help bring the server back to canon setting material.
I would agree with this. I don't think it's the only thing, but the outskirts is like 95% outlanders for instance, most of them are, entirely-justifiably IC, probably not going to have a problem with it, until some commoner comes around and screams to the Garda about witchcraft anyways.
I feel outskirts would benefit from, if not native PCs, some wandering NPCs that would freak out with the aforementioned outcast system consequences if people were openly casting.
I also wanted to post again to reiterate a question I had below that I think got lost:
What kind of items would be accepted and what would not, when it comes to those superstitions?
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What kind of items would be accepted and what would not, when it comes to those superstitions?
So long as it isn't something directly harmful (fireball scroll) or obviously distracting/worrying (a charm that makes a bunch of colorful displays?) you would probably get a stink eye from some people at most. A slap from a garda at worse. I have seen people literally summon creatures out of nowhere with a bauble at some point for Garda PCs to just go "eh".
Anything that is clearly evil in it's intent (think about stygian contracts and such) will probably have everyone concerned.
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There's a difference between what should be and what is unfortunately. Here's the detailed canon writeup from the Gazetteer:
Though Barovians believe in magic, the vast majority of them have never seen it in practice, at least outside of the local cleric. Most folk regard magic as a secret as old as time and riddled with spiritual risks too terrible to contemplate.
Arcane magic is practiced only in secret in Barovia, as the common folk believe that all such power is a gift granted by demons. These fell blessings can be bestowed in the womb (sorcerors) or deliberately sought out by the deranged (wizards), but it makes little difference to the fearful peasant mind. Even bards must be careful not to reveal themselves as anything but wandering performers in this land. Since popular opinion holds that arcane spellcasters are unquestionably the minions of evil, the agents of the boyars and burgomasters rarely discourage violence against them. Villages are rife with tales of suspected spellcasters lynched in full view of idle Barovian soldiers.
Magic is thus not tolerated at all and should not be done publically. However, this is a persistent world, and it's hard to enforce that 24/7; we've taken steps though to regulate the outskirts during the day some more with the extension of Radu's sight, and may take further steps (adding more NPC guards patroling, perhaps commoners, etc.) to further reinforce that Barovia is not a generic fantasy setting.
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On the flip side, eventually powerful mages get tired of stupid peasants and will snap, proving them right that magic should be feared. PCs casting in the outskirts doesn't have to be as immersion breaking as people make it out to be, it can be an opportunity to engage in an in character dialogue about it.
A character that's spent 99% of their lives in a high magic world like Faerun isn't going to learn to be ashamed of casting magic openly in only a matter of weeks/months until something bad happens to them because of that behavior. I feel it's an important social conflict for mages to have to go through in developing their character, especially in terms of networking with other mages.
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we've taken steps though to regulate the outskirts during the day some more with the extension of Radu's sight, and may take further steps (adding more NPC guards patroling, perhaps commoners, etc.) to further reinforce that Barovia is not a generic fantasy setting.
I think this'd do wonders way beyond just being regulation for any spellcasting or whatnot. Players like to see liveliness out there in the skirts. Just having some garda occasionally walk by every half hour or so is interesting to spectate.
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[...] and may take further steps (adding more NPC guards patroling, perhaps commoners, etc.) to further reinforce that Barovia is not a generic fantasy setting.
This sounds interesting.
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More guards patrolling in the outskirts would be nice, and it makes sense that they would. Usually this left to guard PC's but they can only do so with a single guard having a few NPC's patrol around that would also respond to horn blasts would make it quite interesting.
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Oooh yes please EO! Seeing npc garda patrolling would be amazing. It may even encourage people to play a garda knowing they will have some npc support.
Barovia has a lot of potential for rp and plot around mages, and general conflict too. We just need to remember that, and be willing to rp out the consequences
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IMO the most immersive way to 'enforce' that atmosphere is to have active 'witchhunters' PCs, but since magic is 'essential' for adventuring in POTM it's a little hard on the incentive department, so...
Maybe create some kind of witchhunter class that is prohibited to use any kind of magic but gets juicy bonuses for keeping mundane? (SR, ab/dmg or some specific anti-mage things like spell failure infliction or something). This might incentivize more characters to fill that concept and make casters a little more careful of showing their talent.
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Garda characters (like myself) try to enforce the setting by chasing away magic users and punishing them with bounties and fines etc. But it's a thin line where if you are too aggressive, the magic users will just kill you.
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As a native Barovian PC player I basically call myself an NPC PC because you will see my character getting afraid, uncomfortable when she sees magic and she will also remove herself from the situation fast as long as she can. But the reason I can do that is because I am playing a non adventurer and haven't gone dungeoning, nor will I unless it somehow is a story reason.
But most native players of course do not want to submit themselves to this kind of torture so they will be the exceptions, those who come to be okay with magic, be magic casters themselves, or at the very least tolerate magic. Cannot ask all Barovian PCs to scream witchcraft sadly, even though in a perfect world we'd have more commoners and native PCs than outlanders around.
So it is dependent on which PCs are around at what time. Guards enforce as best as they can but there's always the fear aspect, the magic user can kill you. My peasant is not gonna pick up a sword to try and kill the magic user either, she's afraid of death. So we have to tread carefully when reacting certain ways. And guards sadly cannot be online all the time.
However in the end, Barovia is a land where magic is not openly accepted, and it is still feared. We have to keep up the suspension of disbelief and continue that way. I hope the patrolling NPCs or commoners will be true, so that we can support that notion further.
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Garda characters (like myself) try to enforce the setting by chasing away magic users and punishing them with bounties and fines etc. But it's a thin line where if you are too aggressive, the magic users will just kill you.
Kinda odd thing in this situation is at least some of the outlanders would probably help out a guard if they were being assailed out of their general sense of good or whatever - Arthiel would likely come to their defence for instance - but diagetically the garda have no reason to believe or trust that.
Hmm, that might be an interesting dynamic to play off of a bit.
[edit]: I do notice player garda have been out there more regularly the past couple days. I do appreciate that.
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you might not know it, and things in the past have followed a strange wave in fashion and customs, but nowadays garda are rather vanilla and well liked all around. In the past the average life expectancy of a garda was 2-3 months.
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you might not know it, and things in the past have followed a strange wave in fashion and customs, but nowadays garda are rather vanilla and well liked all around. In the past the average life expectancy of a garda was 2-3 months.
yeah this is very true. I have some very fond memories of really harsh garda. One time a guard gave a cultist of Nerull a iron boot (clamped his foot in a brick mold, poured that hot iron on in). I also remember the time when the garda would use the torture chamber. I think there was a dip in such things because players for a while seemed to be very much attached to the characters and perhaps some struggled to differenciate IC and OOC, and so it became safer to not do such things, to make players more comfortable on the server.
Ravenloft, gothic horror and even straight up horror, can be difficult to achieve if we focus too much on comfort, it's a setting that's not supposed to be comfortable for the characters that are stuck in it... Even my native mage is only just recently starting to be open to outlanders that she's got magic, she's still terrified that the man she loves will find out she's a witch though, because to her that would be the end of her living a normal Barovian life. Horror has consequences for every action, be they good consequences or bad. Like a character decided to help a garda take out a criminal by using magic. A good deed, but surely one that will go punished for using such devilry around so many innocent people. We can do things as players to bring the setting back to core, like our self proclaimed "PC NPC". I've always felt that those of us playing natives are taking up the mantle to help keep the setting true, even if it may rob us of potential rp, but to me that potential loss is well out weighed by being able to help keep the setting real.
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you might not know it, and things in the past have followed a strange wave in fashion and customs, but nowadays garda are rather vanilla and well liked all around. In the past the average life expectancy of a garda was 2-3 months.
yeah this is very true. I have some very fond memories of really harsh garda. One time a guard gave a cultist of Nerull a iron boot (clamped his foot in a brick mold, poured that hot iron on in). I also remember the time when the garda would use the torture chamber. I think there was a dip in such things because players for a while seemed to be very much attached to the characters and perhaps some struggled to differenciate IC and OOC, and so it became safer to not do such things, to make players more comfortable on the server.
Ravenloft, gothic horror and even straight up horror, can be difficult to achieve if we focus too much on comfort, it's a setting that's not supposed to be comfortable for the characters that are stuck in it... Even my native mage is only just recently starting to be open to outlanders that she's got magic, she's still terrified that the man she loves will find out she's a witch though, because to her that would be the end of her living a normal Barovian life. Horror has consequences for every action, be they good consequences or bad. Like a character decided to help a garda take out a criminal by using magic. A good deed, but surely one that will go punished for using such devilry around so many innocent people. We can do things as players to bring the setting back to core, like our self proclaimed "PC NPC". I've always felt that those of us playing natives are taking up the mantle to help keep the setting true, even if it may rob us of potential rp, but to me that potential loss is well out weighed by being able to help keep the setting real.
Speaking only for myself, I come from having roleplayed in another setting that also has some pretty grimdark elements. The character I played was a vampiress, and she was legendary levels of not-nice. She once used necromancy to keep someone's husband that was piked on her estates wall alive because his wife annoyed her, levels of not-nice.
The problem this presents that some people do not consider: it can be very taxing on some players to play that kind of villain.
Especially when - as I tried to be - you're still trying to considerate of the gaming experience of others. You end up in a double bind: if you are playing your character naturally as evil as they are, then you would not be hesitating to do these things. However, on an OOC level, I was always quite reticent unless I knew the other player was cool to play along, because those kinds of scenes have long-lasting consequences for those involved, and that's something the player should be consenting on. So you end up either being very harsh to at least some people whom don't want to accept that consequence, or you end up coming off as weak to those you're trying to essentially subjugate as a villain. Neither is good for the game - one on an OOC level, the other IC.
It's my belief if the players that were so flagrant with magic on outskirts were willing to accept it came with the jackboots of the law on your neck, then it would be less of a problem. However, a lot of them that are that blatant, are also the ones who tend to be unaccepting of said consequences.
I don't know that I have a good answer for that.
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you might not know it, and things in the past have followed a strange wave in fashion and customs, but nowadays garda are rather vanilla and well liked all around. In the past the average life expectancy of a garda was 2-3 months.
To me, this has been more of a reflection of the players outside of the garda faction, not inside of it. My observations have been that many players simply don't want to deal with the consequences of their actions IC and so they resort to either breaking character and doing murder things or flat out ignoring murder things. Or they complain about garda faction being to mean which, as it turns out, is not really fun for either side.
Couple that with the over abundance of higher levelled characters in the area and you've got an impotent guard faction who's only recourse is to RP punishments and, as a whole, can't do much to enforce the law. Thus they turn "vanilla" because it's easier than dealing with all of the complaints from disgruntled Karens who simply don't want to observe the setting.
Rant over.
End of the day as many here have stated, most of whom I know to be conscientious observers of the setting, it all comes down to player agency. Keep observing the setting and others will follow eventually. The more we can get on board with it, the better the experience here will be.
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I would've related that to the fact that there is no drain faction to speak of nowadays :lol: so the exact opposite
the only one misbehaving are newly misted, due to them not knowing more than as a way to challenge authority, but for what i could see everyone looks quite well behaved in general, once Pog removed himself...
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Next NCE concept: Tepestani inquisitors on the witch hunt to end all witch hunts; outlanders.
But in all seriousness I think part of the issue is a lack of native characters and a surpluss of outlander characters. It can be hard to solidify the setting when there are vastly more outlanders than natives playing. Best thing we can do is to play more natives and help bring the server back to canon setting material.
I proposed an all native character NCE once. I still think it is a great idea.
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Next NCE concept: Tepestani inquisitors on the witch hunt to end all witch hunts; outlanders.
But in all seriousness I think part of the issue is a lack of native characters and a surpluss of outlander characters. It can be hard to solidify the setting when there are vastly more outlanders than natives playing. Best thing we can do is to play more natives and help bring the server back to canon setting material.
I proposed an all native character NCE once. I still think it is a great idea.
Bunch of Barovias just sitting around musing about the fact that, for once, they aren't being annoyed by obscene amounts of outlander ridiculousness.
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Next NCE concept: Tepestani inquisitors on the witch hunt to end all witch hunts; outlanders.
But in all seriousness I think part of the issue is a lack of native characters and a surpluss of outlander characters. It can be hard to solidify the setting when there are vastly more outlanders than natives playing. Best thing we can do is to play more natives and help bring the server back to canon setting material.
I proposed an all native character NCE once. I still think it is a great idea.
Bunch of Barovias just sitting around musing about the fact that, for once, they aren't being annoyed by obscene amounts of outlander ridiculousness.
That would be oddly satisfying. A slew of Garda, basking in the fact that no outlanders were causing trouble, natives letting their children run outside the city walls cause no witches or fey to eat them!
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Fun fact: native barovians have no reasons to loiter in the outskirts without outlanders. They have a whole walled city to live in!
(including the residential district which IMO is prettier than the savant)
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Fun fact: native barovians have no reasons to loiter in the outskirts without outlanders. They have a whole walled city to live in!
(including the residential district which IMO is prettier than the savant)
Agreed, Vallaki should be used more...
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You guys are being excellent, which is great, but let's try to get back to the topic of the post.
Thanks!
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you might not know it, and things in the past have followed a strange wave in fashion and customs, but nowadays garda are rather vanilla and well liked all around. In the past the average life expectancy of a garda was 2-3 months.
yeah this is very true. I have some very fond memories of really harsh garda. One time a guard gave a cultist of Nerull a iron boot (clamped his foot in a brick mold, poured that hot iron on in). I also remember the time when the garda would use the torture chamber. I think there was a dip in such things because players for a while seemed to be very much attached to the characters and perhaps some struggled to differenciate IC and OOC, and so it became safer to not do such things, to make players more comfortable on the server.
Ravenloft, gothic horror and even straight up horror, can be difficult to achieve if we focus too much on comfort, it's a setting that's not supposed to be comfortable for the characters that are stuck in it... Even my native mage is only just recently starting to be open to outlanders that she's got magic, she's still terrified that the man she loves will find out she's a witch though, because to her that would be the end of her living a normal Barovian life. Horror has consequences for every action, be they good consequences or bad. Like a character decided to help a garda take out a criminal by using magic. A good deed, but surely one that will go punished for using such devilry around so many innocent people. We can do things as players to bring the setting back to core, like our self proclaimed "PC NPC". I've always felt that those of us playing natives are taking up the mantle to help keep the setting true, even if it may rob us of potential rp, but to me that potential loss is well out weighed by being able to help keep the setting real.
The torture room is still used, and there are still harsh punishments (someone got blinded very recently). I don't really think guard characters are easy on anyone compared to how it was back then.
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you might not know it, and things in the past have followed a strange wave in fashion and customs, but nowadays garda are rather vanilla and well liked all around. In the past the average life expectancy of a garda was 2-3 months.
To me, this has been more of a reflection of the players outside of the garda faction, not inside of it. My observations have been that many players simply don't want to deal with the consequences of their actions IC and so they resort to either breaking character and doing murder things or flat out ignoring murder things. Or they complain about garda faction being to mean which, as it turns out, is not really fun for either side.
Couple that with the over abundance of higher levelled characters in the area and you've got an impotent guard faction who's only recourse is to RP punishments and, as a whole, can't do much to enforce the law. Thus they turn "vanilla" because it's easier than dealing with all of the complaints from disgruntled Karens who simply don't want to observe the setting.
Rant over.
End of the day as many here have stated, most of whom I know to be conscientious observers of the setting, it all comes down to player agency. Keep observing the setting and others will follow eventually. The more we can get on board with it, the better the experience here will be.
This leads to the question of: what can we do to deal with people whom are disrespectful of the setting, as players? It would be unreasonable to demand that the DMs deal with it every time, and likely largely impossible if we want them running interesting events and doing the other little things we do.
I do agree leading by example is a good approach for those that are ameneable to it, but the cynic in me is of the opinion those likely aren't the players whom are problematic to begin with.
In the previous setting I used to roleplay in, people whom were acting clearly out of setting would be deemed "insane", and depending on where you were in any given place, that'd mean anything from incarceration to death. That's one possible approach, but not the only one; others here know much better than a newbie playing for a week like me would when it comes to conventions here.
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That would be oddly satisfying. A slew of Garda, basking in the fact that no outlanders were causing trouble, natives letting their children run outside the city walls cause no witches or fey to eat them!
I actually feel like the danger of this and rowdiness of some of the outlanders is part of the town's vibe, honestly. I do think that a lot of thise seems to stem from a combination of a garda that can't well-enforce the laws for a variety of reasons others here have commented on, and players of characters whom don't want to accept the consequences of their actions. While I can't speak for them, as I'm not one of them, I can't imagine the people who play garda PCs want to deal with someone screaming bloody murder OOC because they disposed of a practictioner of the dark arts.
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In the past there was use of the asylum, and I can remember a palpable fear regardless of level of getting sent there. So that could possibly be something we bring back, now that would entail getting permission from the DM team to use the place IC, otherwise, we could have a player open a mental asylum sort of thing inside Vallaki and team up with the garda to house and treat people that are "insane". Bring out the fear of being sent to the loony bin where you'd be subject to ye olde mind medicine (lobotomies weren't a thing until the 20th century, but many other horrifying treatments existed) and get the newest, best quackery to calm the mind or correct it.
I think ultimately the best thing we can do is to try to remind people of the setting we are all playing in and be ready to accept whatever consequences our actions have. It helps to remember that IC is just that, IC. If it feels like someone is being very disruptive or blatantly not caring about the setting, screenshot it with the chat windows combined and send it off to the DM team.
Something that could perhaps be done would be a little blurb during the character creation phase that reminds us all of the setting and the horrors to expect, I've also always felt we need a blurb about how clerics from outside the land of mists suddenly loose their godly connection as that is a rather important aspect of the setting that often times seems to go overlooked. Regarding magic in Barovia though, perhaps we could breathe some life into the farther western parts of Barovia where they are more likely to drown a suspected witch. Hopefully with the rp restriction being removed from vallaki we might get to see some garda who get into the higher levels, possibly even end game level. That would permit them some more agency to enforce things. Perhaps even allowing the garda to go out on training missions and do some dungeoning around Vallaki (Like clearing the sewer, mid levels being tasked with hunting the wererats, etc), that way they'd have access to more exp and higher levels, which may make it easier to deal with outlanders.
In regards to magic though, it may be neat to get a little post going with the societal view of magic in each of the towns/villages that we have in Barovia so that we can get a better feel.
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you might not know it, and things in the past have followed a strange wave in fashion and customs, but nowadays garda are rather vanilla and well liked all around. In the past the average life expectancy of a garda was 2-3 months.
To me, this has been more of a reflection of the players outside of the garda faction, not inside of it. My observations have been that many players simply don't want to deal with the consequences of their actions IC and so they resort to either breaking character and doing murder things or flat out ignoring murder things. Or they complain about garda faction being to mean which, as it turns out, is not really fun for either side.
Couple that with the over abundance of higher levelled characters in the area and you've got an impotent guard faction who's only recourse is to RP punishments and, as a whole, can't do much to enforce the law. Thus they turn "vanilla" because it's easier than dealing with all of the complaints from disgruntled Karens who simply don't want to observe the setting.
Rant over.
End of the day as many here have stated, most of whom I know to be conscientious observers of the setting, it all comes down to player agency. Keep observing the setting and others will follow eventually. The more we can get on board with it, the better the experience here will be.
This leads to the question of: what can we do to deal with people whom are disrespectful of the setting, as players? It would be unreasonable to demand that the DMs deal with it every time, and likely largely impossible if we want them running interesting events and doing the other little things we do.
I do agree leading by example is a good approach for those that are ameneable to it, but the cynic in me is of the opinion those likely aren't the players whom are problematic to begin with.
In the previous setting I used to roleplay in, people whom were acting clearly out of setting would be deemed "insane", and depending on where you were in any given place, that'd mean anything from incarceration to death. That's one possible approach, but not the only one; others here know much better than a newbie playing for a week like me would when it comes to conventions here.
[edit]:
That would be oddly satisfying. A slew of Garda, basking in the fact that no outlanders were causing trouble, natives letting their children run outside the city walls cause no witches or fey to eat them!
I actually feel like the danger of this and rowdiness of some of the outlanders is part of the town's vibe, honestly. I do think that a lot of thise seems to stem from a combination of a garda that can't well-enforce the laws for a variety of reasons others here have commented on, and players of characters whom don't want to accept the consequences of their actions. While I can't speak for them, as I'm not one of them, I can't imagine the people who play garda PCs want to deal with someone screaming bloody murder OOC because they disposed of a practictioner of the dark arts.
In a lot of ways, some of us are doing it. We hold true to the setting as best we can. We call out, without being overly agressive, those who don't. Sometimes we have to disguise it as IC, but eventually they do get it.
I think the best thing to do is to continue to advocate for more setting appropriate behavior whenever you can. My characters often spend their nights either out adventuring or hidden away in doors. Rarely do they sit out at night gazing at the stars. The reason is twofold. Firstly, the night is dark and full of terrors. Secondly, it's illegal and many of my characters are lawful.
When it comes to magic, my beguiler makes little attempt to hide her abilities now, mostly because she's confident in her skills as a caster and is smart enough to abide the laws of the land. Should a sudden inquisition arrise, I think her demeanor would change drastically different. Even though she knows magic and isn't terribly afraid to use it or show it, she knows where to use and show it. Furthermore, she openly calls out those who would so brazenly cast in front of the xenophobic and rhabdophobic populace of Vallaki.
It makes me wonder if certain areas could be scripted to increase OCR when spells are cast rather than just doing so in the presence of NPCs. The fact that someone can cast freely in Vallaki at night because everyone is inside suggests that none of these homes have windows that a hapless observer might look out at any given moment. Time to make suggestion post!
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It's my belief if the players that were so flagrant with magic on outskirts were willing to accept it came with the jackboots of the law on your neck, then it would be less of a problem. However, a lot of them that are that blatant, are also the ones who tend to be unaccepting of said consequences.
I don't know that I have a good answer for that.
My answer is usually to just walk away. You have a choice to engage with, or not engage with, any kind of RP that seems like it's not your thing.
It's one thing to be patient and give people a chance, that's perfectly fine. You can try to teach them through positive reinforcement, or just ignore their character's strange behaviour and see if they do it again. Negative reinforcement on the other hand, as you've noticed, doesn't work out; spending your time actively trying to fight against people who don't care about the setting is going to burn you out.
That's the thing with hubs like the outskirts, you've got so many people there for so many hours on end, and sometimes the only excitement that happens all day is an outcast racing Radu, or someone leaving a door open. Eventually you are going to see someone slip up or act out, and the guards can only do so much, whether there's 2 of them or 8 of them, they can't do it all on their own. At the end of the day they are here to RP, not enforce the setting from an OOC standpoint.
You can try your hardest but sooner or later you will come to realise your energy is better spent rewarding the kind of RP you do want to see. Spend time around people who respect the setting - they're not being tangibly rewarded otherwise.
I don't stick around in hubs because of this. While they attract all kinds of activity, that doesn't mean they foster all kinds of RP. Another thing is the misconception in theory vs practice. In theory, sure, the outskirts should be a slice of Barovia, with some outlander vibes on the side. In practice, most days it's a slice of every approved D&D setting with a little Barovian on the side. You can passively respect the setting and hope it'll be the former all you like, but even if you put in active effort, the results will be temporary.
The dev team seems to be open to/looking into adding more stuff that will curb this kind of behaviour where it threatens immersion, by adding more mechanical consequences. I think this is where we'll see the most success and the most concrete change. It will never be beaten, it will just change forms, but it's a lot better than leaving it the way it is.
But from the player's side of things, I think our best tools are patience, the power of walking away, and reporting excessively bad behaviour. It is a rule here not to adversely affect the enjoyment of others, and it is not your responsibility to try and use tells to let people know they're out of line. If your character can't convince them via completely IC means, it is time to retire from that RP, take some screenshots or a video recording if need be and let the DMs have a chat with them instead.
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It's my belief if the players that were so flagrant with magic on outskirts were willing to accept it came with the jackboots of the law on your neck, then it would be less of a problem. However, a lot of them that are that blatant, are also the ones who tend to be unaccepting of said consequences.
I don't know that I have a good answer for that.
My answer is usually to just walk away. You have a choice to engage with, or not engage with, any kind of RP that seems like it's not your thing.
So just now, we had two PC garda, with retinues. A lady walks up to the vendor, asks straight up for a *wizards robe*, and nothing happens, she walks off some moment later, even after several people remarked in various ways on it.
My immersion just existed, stage left.
It's hard to ignore that kind of flagrancy.
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Honestly that's par for the course. People do this without thinking or without knowing at all. I know it sounds elitist but I really just ignore stuff like that and walk away, it's why I rarely go to the outskirts or MC in the first place except to pass through.
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It's my belief if the players that were so flagrant with magic on outskirts were willing to accept it came with the jackboots of the law on your neck, then it would be less of a problem. However, a lot of them that are that blatant, are also the ones who tend to be unaccepting of said consequences.
I don't know that I have a good answer for that.
My answer is usually to just walk away. You have a choice to engage with, or not engage with, any kind of RP that seems like it's not your thing.
So just now, we had two PC garda, with retinues. A lady walks up to the vendor, asks straight up for a *wizards robe*, and nothing happens, she walks off some moment later, even after several people remarked in various ways on it.
My immersion just existed, stage left.
It's hard to ignore that kind of flagrancy.
You've also got to consider that most garda are aware of the vast number of outlander witches who call the outskirts home. To the point where some assume they're all witches. That being the case, are they going to freak out and try to arrest everyone, or are they going to read the room and deal with the issue when a better opportunity arises? That same garda that let it slide might be planning to ambush the witch, cut out their tongue and break their hands at a later date. Or they might be a corrupt spellcaster themselves.
The fact that the setting opens up into the outskirts simply means that there's going to be a lot more debauchery there than anywhere else on the server, barring perhaps the MC. Set your expectations for some degree of silliness in that place in particular. If we policed every little thing it'd be a sure fire way to drive people away from the server. With 100's of players, you're going to get a few that are either unaware or ignorant, but they often figure it out after a little guidance. Some just never will, and thats ok. We're not at the tabletop, nor are we in an MMO. We're somewhere in between.
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It's my belief if the players that were so flagrant with magic on outskirts were willing to accept it came with the jackboots of the law on your neck, then it would be less of a problem. However, a lot of them that are that blatant, are also the ones who tend to be unaccepting of said consequences.
I don't know that I have a good answer for that.
My answer is usually to just walk away. You have a choice to engage with, or not engage with, any kind of RP that seems like it's not your thing.
So just now, we had two PC garda, with retinues. A lady walks up to the vendor, asks straight up for a *wizards robe*, and nothing happens, she walks off some moment later, even after several people remarked in various ways on it.
My immersion just existed, stage left.
It's hard to ignore that kind of flagrancy.
There is nothing flagrant about this scenario, though. It is not illegal to be a wizard/sorcerer/what have you in Barovia, or Vallaki specifically. Numerous magical items are sold in the Vallaki outskirts on a daily basis.
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I think I'm going to step away from this discussion before I say something uncharitable.
But I will end on this: If expecting that people not trample the setting is unrealistic of me, then I'm happy to be called unreasonable.
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There is nothing flagrant about this scenario, though. It is not illegal to be a wizard/sorcerer/what have you in Barovia, or Vallaki specifically. Numerous magical items are sold in the Vallaki outskirts on a daily basis.
It is not illegal, but Barovia is not founded on the basis of a coherent legal system, as has been explained to me in the past by DMs. Barovian law is divided into 'what is codified by the Count and his underlings' and 'everything else that the local Garda feel like enforcing'. As to the justification of magical items being sold daily; the trends of the playerbase are not consistent with the canonical state of the land.
Barovia, if memory serves, has a public event that I am reluctant to refer to as a holiday, centered around locating a foreigner and burning them alive for no crime other than being present before the mob. In the Gazetteer regarding Barovia, it is even more clearly spelled out; magic is not tolerated beyond that of the clergy. Those that traffic in it are considered to be associates of demons. These are points that should be considered on the topic of accepting magical items in trade. When players traffic in magic items that are subtle enough to not be discernible by the Garda, or trade in them behind closed doors and in dark, shadowy alleyways, it satisfies both the cultural imperatives of the Barovian people and the desire for players to have shiny things. Doing so in the open, blatantly and flagrantly, only serves to lessen the intended narrative of the region.
That people "openly" trade in magical items on a daily basis is not an implicit act of permission by the Garda, but is itself a result of their superstitious nature and lack of learning; they cannot recognize all but the most blatantly magical of items. The organisation of the Garda is largely dictated by it's constituent members, which over time will wax and wane, as well as individuals shuffling in or out, with all the attendant results thereof; including varied outlooks on such topics as trafficking in magical goods. There have been times in the server's history where the Garda have entirely culled all trade in everything not mundane and times where the Garda themselves resort to using magical possessions.
Ultimately it does not matter whether it is illegal or not to traffic in magical items in Barovia; it is socially and culturally unacceptable, which trumps all other considerations. Canonically, if the Garda fails to suppress outlanders and their ways, mob rule soon takes over in a spectacularly violent fashion. Obviously, the DMs are not in the business of running a mob of NPCs through Vallaki every week to ensure that people toe the line.
tl;dr
magic bad, outlanders bad
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Yes, the Garda do have some IC ability and power to play up to the setting; so if you feel strongly on the issue, you could look to playing one.
Though I would caution that it's an often thankless task that may feel like you're trying to hold back the ocean. There have been eras where the Garda were notoriously cruel, iron-fisted, and very keen to destroying magical wares and punishing merchants for selling them. But this puts them on a path of active conflict and considering that Garda aren't meant to be equipped to deal with higher level outlanders, these Garda may not have a very long life span. The pushback is also quite legitimate, after all.
At the end of the day I think it's important not to get overzealous about these things and see the Outskirt dynamic as just that: an ebb and flow which will never have much of an established culture because it's where a lot new folk come in.
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I don't know about magic items, even some garda items are magical.
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I don't know about magic items, even some garda items are magical.
Can you elaborate? Do you mean +1 AB gear with skill bonuses? By the books that can be considered masterwork rather than magical.
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the problem is that by convenience, the outskirts acts as a bazaar for outlanders, whose vision of life and magic is way more relaxed. Not only that, but the sums of coins moved around is ridiculously huge compared to the cost of living and wages of the people inside the walls.
But the outskirts are also at a stone throw by the city walls. realistically speaking, these deals should happen further away, maybe by petre, maybe in the drain. but changing the way people peddle would change the fisionomy of the serverso... lets just keep it like that...
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I don't know about magic items, even some garda items are magical.
Can you elaborate? Do you mean +1 AB gear with skill bonuses? By the books that can be considered masterwork rather than magical.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/538804430598832138/1047816494882508800/image.png)
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Magic imbued on you, and magic upon an item are different things. Barovians are afraid of magic cast due to calibans, and nothing good comes from magic casters, most of the time.
...but Barovians do not believe, the majority will not believe, a magical sword or a shirt will turn you into a caliban. Novels speak of Burgomasters seeking magical items for the Count, there are legends of magical trophies, there's Quinn Roche's Vault everyone and their mothers were talking about at some point because it is rumoured to house 1000 magical sets of armor. Not just server canon, but gazetteer canon, so actual canon. Some Vistani make a living out of selling magical trinkets to the population, (even though they are most of the time of course, fake.)
There's a difference between someone loudly chanting magic and throwing beams of light and fireballs around versus an item that is inherently magical.
I will react to the first, as a peasant player. Seeing merchants selling magical wares? ...Why would that bother my character? Unless it looks extremely evil.
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I will react to the first, as a peasant player. Seeing merchants selling magical wares? ...Why would that bother my character? Unless it looks extremely evil.
Well, there was the fact that the same woman buying wizard robes was, half the day, being accompanied by a literal demon.
As I was saying to a couple people in this thread in side discussions elsewhere, I do not expect that players new to the game are going to be entirely observant of the setting.
I do hold people who are in an organization like the Garda - whom can and often do set the tone of that area - to lead by example though.
I think in the future if this happens, I'll probably just page a DM. One daydreaming garda might miss the arcane mage who is going on about wizards robes and dragging an imp about, that six would strains credulity, and there becomes a point where it is egregious to the point of being indefensible. (Indeed, some on the scene were making some snippy and snide comments like "he didn't even move" "perhaps he is contemplating life.." etc)
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I will react to the first, as a peasant player. Seeing merchants selling magical wares? ...Why would that bother my character? Unless it looks extremely evil.
Well, there was the fact that the same woman buying wizard robes was, half the day, being accompanied by a literal demon.
As I was saying to a couple people in this thread in side discussions elsewhere, I do not expect that players new to the game are going to be entirely observant of the setting.
I do hold people who are in an organization like the Garda - whom can and often do set the tone of that area - to lead by example though.
I think in the future if this happens, I'll probably just page a DM. One daydreaming garda might miss the arcane mage who is going on about wizards robes and dragging an imp about, that six would strains credulity, and there becomes a point where it is egregious to the point of being indefensible. (Indeed, some on the scene were making some snippy and snide comments like "he didn't even move" "perhaps he is contemplating life.." etc)
Well, I usually act when I see stuff like that. At that time I might have been AFK. I understand that one such occasion is immersion breaking but it's not the norm when there is a guard player around.
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Well, there was the fact that the same woman buying wizard robes was, half the day, being accompanied by a literal demon.
As I was saying to a couple people in this thread in side discussions elsewhere, I do not expect that players new to the game are going to be entirely observant of the setting.
I do hold people who are in an organization like the Garda - whom can and often do set the tone of that area - to lead by example though.
I think in the future if this happens, I'll probably just page a DM. One daydreaming garda might miss the arcane mage who is going on about wizards robes and dragging an imp about, that six would strains credulity, and there becomes a point where it is egregious to the point of being indefensible. (Indeed, some on the scene were making some snippy and snide comments like "he didn't even move" "perhaps he is contemplating life.." etc)
Cannot react to what we haven't seen. Garda cannot react to something they haven't seen, or been reported to about. I understand your point, however, a garda player having to quickly go somewhere IRL, doesn't make them a bad garda. At this point it is on the characters who were making snippy comments rather than the garda himself.
I've watched garda kill familiars, of animalkind. Cats even. An imp is not going to go unnoticed. Garda are also human though. I really understand your frustration, as I avoid the outskirts myself most of the time for the same reasons (disruptive characters) but this feels a bit unfair.
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Cannot react to what we haven't seen. Garda cannot react to something they haven't seen, or been reported to about. I understand your point, however, a garda player having to quickly go somewhere IRL, doesn't make them a bad garda. At this point it is on the characters who were making snippy comments rather than the garda himself.
I've watched garda kill familiars, of animalkind. Cats even. An imp is not going to go unnoticed. Garda are also human though. I really understand your frustration, as I avoid the outskirts myself most of the time for the same reasons (disruptive characters) but this feels a bit unfair.
So have I seen this. I guess that's what's frustrating to me: the inconsistency. To some degree, this is to be expected, for the reasons that Grendel pointed out, but only to a point. I would, for instance, expect a character throwing out magic-wielding mages one day to do the same again, unless there's some other extenuating circumstance in the roleplay.
I should however clarify two things:
1] This is not the first incident.
2] Arthiel's attempt to report something IC the first time it happened mostly got brushed off, so IC, she's unlikely to care all that much about trying again.
I am trying very hard not to name names here, as that makes it turn into a sort of witchhunt, or otherwise turns it into personal conflicts, which is unproductive. But suffice it to say I have noticed there's those that are trying.
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if the thing is so egregiously disrupting i tend to ignore it to preserve my own immersion.
there has been a time where people conjured elementals and ghost armors, or druids made -ahem- stuff while in animal form. all of that was at night, so away from the prying eyes of the law abiding barovians, but its stupid either way.
My own way of dealing with it was to walk away fast. One could add on top of that by reporting, but as far as interrupting what is happening, I do not feel anything can be done if a DM is not present.
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Some players really strive to maintain character and setting authenticity in the PoTM realm environment (something I appreciate when I see it happen). Others are.... how shall I put this... I guess the quote from Bull Durham works best "Their world is made for people who aren't cursed with self awareness".
It happens in the real world; it happens here in PoTM. Whatcha gonna do? Grit your teeth politely and just hope they take their circus somewhere else and cease interrupting your day.
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There are people in the real world that are generally irresponsible, ridiculous, goofy et cetra. The people that shoot bottle rockets at each other or have a test of masculinity by peeing on a electric fence the longest for fun exist. If you don't like that the DM team isn't kicking them out for not playing the game the way you think it should be played, then tough.
Everyone gets the same opportunities to play here, people get warned/disciplined if their behavior is actually disruptive. If you see behavior that is concerning, screenshot it and report it to the DM team and they will deal with it. Making threads like this doesn't solve anything, it just makes you look elitist and unwilling to be patient with people that are either learning the game or don't RP the way you do. You will not ever be told someone is being warned or banned, either, it's not anyone else's business.
You don't get to choose what sort of nonsense you have to deal with from people in real life and that doesn't change in a multiplayer game with random people from around the planet.
Engaging with people in nonsense can also be fun and occasionally breaking the gloom and doom atmosphere helps contribute to the reality of how bad it really is. There needs to be happiness and levity so that things can happen to remind the prisoners of the futility of such things.
As someone who plays a high level caster that went from fearing getting caught for casting to openly warding so that people know she's ready for violence, I can attest that not everyone is doing what they are doing strictly from an ooc standpoint either. There are IC reasons, mostly intimidation and past trauma, that drive my character into using magic openly. This is likely true of others whose background involves conflict and bad blood. Keep that in mind when you see people casting as well. You can never really know what's actually going on behind the screen, it's best if you engage with it ICly. Someone casting a bunch of spells in the outskirts, use it as an opportunity to engage with them.
Just a few ideas:
"That's a lot of magic is there danger?"
"Wow you know lots of spells are you a veteran adventurer?"
"Stop casting random spells like an idiot do you want the Garda giving us problems?"
"Keep your foul vraja to yourself dirty witch!"
TLDR - You miss out on opportunities to roleplay by being overly judgy rather than engaging. Lower your expectations of others and focus on yourself.
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Being the player of the garda from that interaction, I can explain Blair's reasoning:
Magic isn't illegal in Barovia, and he has no reason to stick his nose into innocuous mage business -- If he tried to kill everyone he suspected of being a mage, he would be guilty of slaughtering like 80% of the playerbase (or more likely have been zapped to death by the first levelled wizard I engaged.)
Blair isn't dumb, he knows that the outlander population is full of witches, wizards and warlocks, and knows that outlanders spend their free time dousing each other in loads and loads of magic to delve into dangerous, monster infested crypts. For fun.
At the end of the day, he is a person with a family and he wants to go home when his shift is over. His main objective is to keep this craziness away from the Vallaki populace. A passing mention of wizardry is one of the lowest of the low offenses from even just the last few days.
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Everyone gets the same opportunities to play here, people get warned/disciplined if their behavior is actually disruptive. If you see behavior that is concerning, screenshot it and report it to the DM team and they will deal with it. Making threads like this doesn't solve anything, it just makes you look elitist and unwilling to be patient with people that are either learning the game or don't RP the way you do.
I find these kinds of statements akin to a personal attack, and however truthful you may believe them to be, that is unhelpful to discussion at the best. Please don't.
My answer is usually to just walk away. You have a choice to engage with, or not engage with, any kind of RP that seems like it's not your thing.
It's one thing to be patient and give people a chance, that's perfectly fine. You can try to teach them through positive reinforcement, or just ignore their character's strange behaviour and see if they do it again. Negative reinforcement on the other hand, as you've noticed, doesn't work out; spending your time actively trying to fight against people who don't care about the setting is going to burn you out.
That's the thing with hubs like the outskirts, you've got so many people there for so many hours on end, and sometimes the only excitement that happens all day is an outcast racing Radu, or someone leaving a door open. Eventually you are going to see someone slip up or act out, and the guards can only do so much, whether there's 2 of them or 8 of them, they can't do it all on their own. At the end of the day they are here to RP, not enforce the setting from an OOC standpoint.
You can try your hardest but sooner or later you will come to realise your energy is better spent rewarding the kind of RP you do want to see. Spend time around people who respect the setting - they're not being tangibly rewarded otherwise.
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But from the player's side of things, I think our best tools are patience, the power of walking away, and reporting excessively bad behaviour. It is a rule here not to adversely affect the enjoyment of others, and it is not your responsibility to try and use tells to let people know they're out of line. If your character can't convince them via completely IC means, it is time to retire from that RP, take some screenshots or a video recording if need be and let the DMs have a chat with them instead.
I have to concede that this is probably the best approach. However, this is largely from an OOC angle, ie "well I dont want to burn out telling people they're harming people's roleplay every night and dealing with resultant ooc conflicts that are inevitable." While this is likely a "me" problem, it would be rather uncharacteristic for Arthiel to ignore these things. I might have to consider having her get a bit jaded about these things, because it's about the only way to reconcile it in a way that is going to keep her fun.
Call me elitist or selfish if you like, but at the end of the day if this isn't fun for people then this isn't worth engaging with - and my frustration comes from several interactions here being very excellent roleplay that I enjoyed (like that albeit brief interaction with you last night, Blair) - you get these indepth, well-emoted little interactions, even the slice of life stuff, and its great roleplay - them something like that drags it down.
Ignoring it is probably for the best. Is there a way to ignore particularly disruptive players at the player level?
As some may have surmised, I prefer to avoid bothering the DMs about this. For one, in the event that they do consider this disruptive, there's enough of it that goes on in some places, as others have mentioned, that it would be time-consuming to police. I would prefer in-character options, but there's only so much we can do at the same time, if they're just dedicated to sms-speak and dragging around demons with them, etc,etc.
Being the player of the garda from that interaction, I can explain Blair's reasoning:
I should say, the intent of that post wasn't to call any specific person out, or try to name and shame, myself. Indeed, I was trying to avoid names so I wasn't singling them out. To be honest, I assumed you were OOCly AFK. It happens, as much as it resulted in a scene that frustrated me.
The problem I more had is kind of an "ignoring the NPCs" sort of thing: I have to figure in that situation, for instance, at least one of the garda NPCs that you or the other officer had with them would be exchanging furitive glances about someone being open with magic. In this sort of vein, I'm of the opinion that RPing out some emotes can absolve most sins. I mean, you do you, I'm not going to tell you how to RP your character, but that'd be my mind on it.
The same person involve had brought a demon (assassin imp) into the church and was basically flaunting it. Several players called them out on it, IC. FWIW.
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It's definitely an OOC shielding mechanism. I try to play dumb about this stuff because it doesn't do anything for me to interact with that kind of thing. I used to, because I had a character who was in a faction that needed to keep the peace and quiet in the temple. I would take the opportunity to RP with anyone who was around, even the "trollier" sorts, because it let me determine who was just a confused new player and who was just there to glow in the dark.
You could have your character respond to it, if you're just careful about not getting burned out on having to go over the same thing so much. I treat all my journeys away from the outskirts as detox and the outskirts itself as a patience test. :mrgreen:
But you'll notice while this may have pros and help you stay IC, by trying to get other people to react to the unusual sights - it also has cons. Like if you call out something particularly weird and nobody even reacts, those are the moments you should really just roll your eyes and move on, for your own good.
Obviously I talk from a place of privilege knowing where even my level 2-4 characters can go alone to avoid the circus when I'm not up for that. It's why I think, even if dungeoning is sometimes looked down upon, if you can get a good group together, you can keep the theme and not be in the outskirts. For me that's 3 points toward good RP.
I don't think you're elitist, you just have the perspective of someone who hasn't had the time to become numb to it yet, nothing wrong with that, and nothing particularly right about me being numb to / wanting to avoid hubs. It's just my playstyle.
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Through the progression of this thread, I'm starting to get confused about what exactly is the ruling on magic and such within Barovia. I know at any point a Garda PC could simply ignore magic being casted in front of them and whatnot. But I'm getting conflicting answers about just how far the "law" extends to magic, the locals perception on it, etc.
I know EO posted this reference relating to this but, I don't think everyone has upheld it all the time. Whether that's "just because" or if it's actually because people don't know any better, I can't say.
There's a difference between what should be and what is unfortunately. Here's the detailed canon writeup from the Gazetteer:
Though Barovians believe in magic, the vast majority of them have never seen it in practice, at least outside of the local cleric. Most folk regard magic as a secret as old as time and riddled with spiritual risks too terrible to contemplate.
Arcane magic is practiced only in secret in Barovia, as the common folk believe that all such power is a gift granted by demons -
I mean. Is it illegal? Or just frowned upon? Or... Something else? Because now I'm even unsure about it. Vallaki was some sort of hub of magic at some point? No longer? Can we get more proper clarification on this?
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This is just my experience and what guards have told me in the past, but I think while magic itself is not banned, Barovian peasants themselves fear it so much that encountering it means the offending party will likely be seen as guilty of "disturbing the peace." The source book says it's them who enforce their own justice, while the guards in their villages simply look on. When they suspect one of their own is a witch, they get a pitchfork mob going with torches and they handle it themselves.
I could be wrong, that's just what I remember.
See, that's the trick with the outskirts. There's no peasants around. You could argue that guards are essentially in the same social class, and of course they're all native Barovians subject to the same superstition. Many people may perceive that there is no "peace" to be "disturbing" by glowing blue. And when you run into the temple with your dire bear, or turned into an umber hulk, the NPCs don't react, so a new player could take that to mean it's okay. It's pretty understandable that there are mixed signals. That's one reason I support further updates to make this clearer.
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Through the progression of this thread, I'm starting to get confused about what exactly is the ruling on magic and such within Barovia. I know at any point a Garda PC could simply ignore magic being casted in front of them and whatnot. But I'm getting conflicting answers about just how far the "law" extends to magic, the locals perception on it, etc.
I mean. Is it illegal? Or just frowned upon? Or... Something else? Because now I'm even unsure about it. Vallaki was some sort of hub of magic at some point? No longer? Can we get more proper clarification on this?
Barovia does not function on strict, codified laws and legal systems, except in circumstances such as declarations by the Count, the Burgomeisters, or in extremely limited circumstances usually relating to the upper class of Barovia. It is a mistake to think of Barovia like a modern day society, where it has a structured and comprehensible legal system. In reality, it is just as backwards and unfair as the land it governs. While it is helpful to have a series of codified laws and guidelines, so that you have less incidents of people doing 'bad things', it is by no means the full extent of the system. The Garda are usually allowed to operate at their discretion and mete out punishments for even trivial actions; especially if they go against the societal and cultural tenets of Barovians.
This is most clearly exemplified by the example of Barovian-Gundarakite relations. Gundarakites are subject to heinous restrictions, constant oppression and if known to the Garda, are likely to be harassed or punished for non-crimes. Simply put; do not expect there to be any fairness in what the Garda choose to prosecute. Some Garda take the view that outlanders are horrifyingly dangerous and simply avoid friction. Others hate them to the core and will take any opportunity to make their lives worse. Yet more might choose to take a measured approach, believing in upholding the spirit and letter of what laws do exist. In addition, foreigners are not subject to the same protections as Barovians; one example is that only native-born Barovians have the right to a trial.
Source: I once attempted making a lawyer character to operate in Barovia and a DM told me all of the above as a way to explain that said character could not function.
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Another thing to consider is that Barovia and all of Ravenloft's settings were designed with the intention of small groups of players sitting around the table exploring the setting once or twice or ten times.
It was never intended to be made into a persistent world with hundreds of players and therefor a ridiculous influx of outlander type characters. Some of the source material and canon simply cannot be enforced with such a large player base. And so as players we should do everything we can to make the setting feel more real given what we know of it. But at the end of the day I think some liberties must be taken in order to accomodate the populice.
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Through the progression of this thread, I'm starting to get confused about what exactly is the ruling on magic and such within Barovia. [SNIP]
I mean. Is it illegal? Or just frowned upon? Or... Something else? Because now I'm even unsure about it. Vallaki was some sort of hub of magic at some point? No longer? Can we get more proper clarification on this?
"Black magic" is illegal within Wachter territory (i.e., not Vallaki) and has been for the past eight or so IRL years: https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=37870.msg483740#msg483740 (https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=37870.msg483740#msg483740). This was called to my attention not long ago.
What's "black magic"? Based on the others' posts above, this was probably left intentionally vague.
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Vallaki and barovia has a pretty decent, canonical, selection of secret magic users. Barovian peasants and those who do not use magic are going to see it as devillery and react hostilly towards the user. It's like those movies where the township learns of a witch and panics. As opposed to tepest where it basically is illegal, tepest is the witch hunts. Hopefully that makes sense
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The actual laws of Vallaki as observed in game. https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=49653
Nothing that specifically singles out magic, though there used to be a bylaw about removing magical light greater than 5m spread. I don't know if that was changed or if it is only listed in the garda subforums.
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So, first things first. You are right about the Barovians being very xenophobic and superstitious. It's the simplest answer without delving into too deep lore and it's likely one of the first things an outlander to the setting would learn if someone told them or if they were paying attention.
The answer to your second question is a bit more complicated. I've been playing on this server for 3 years now and I've seen too many instances of what you're describing.
Personally, I just ignore it if I do not have a particular IC reason to address it. There are a lot of new people that come and go from the server and do not have a thorough understanding of the setting or game itself. The outskirts is the very first area they enter when they land on the server from the new character room, and it's the 'low level hub' so to speak. The NPCs are there, but they're rather ineffectual if a player is very determined to play a particular way they want to.
From an IC perspective, the garda on this server have been witness to many things that occur within the outskirts of Vallaki, and the characters that inhabit them. This would likely make them wary and tread lightly about potentially upsetting any powerful characters with the means to assassinate them for a perceived slight and make certain they cannot see the light of day again. They are doing the best they can within the means and avenues of RP and OOC consideration for themselves and others that are afforded to them. Abear made a good point when he spoke of his IC reasoning, of not immediately going onto hunt when something involving the use of magic outside the city was told to his PC.
My answer to the expected response is that the response starts with you. If you're playing a good aligned cleric or a paladin, and you see a imp being pulled around, if you have the IC reason to do it, you should take the initiative and tell the player to stow away their demon, and reinforce the setting. If your PC feels like the Garda has ignored them about the matter, maybe let it fuel their reasoning for why they would feel the desire to take an active stand against it. Maybe they want to guide and protect. Maybe it's just plain annoying and they want it to stop.
It's a good opportunity to lead by example and teach newer players that are willing to RP and learn about the setting, or learn to better conduct themselves on the server. I would personally do the same if I was playing a druid or good aligned cleric or paladin character, and saw animals being dragged through the outskirts or demons. We can't expect others or NPCs to do the reinforcement for us, if we have the opportunity to do it ourselves. Being proactive like this can also enhance the rp and experience for others. If the player simply doesn't want to bother with the RP, then there is little you can do, and the best course of action is to simply ignore them.
Playing active Native PCs is also a very good way to reinforce the setting, especially if you are a class or concept that is not immediately hostile towards such displays. It gives you the IC opportunity to correct and enforce.
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IMO the most immersive way to 'enforce' that atmosphere is to have active 'witchhunters' PCs, but since magic is 'essential' for adventuring in POTM it's a little hard on the incentive department, so...
Maybe create some kind of witchhunter class that is prohibited to use any kind of magic but gets juicy bonuses for keeping mundane? (SR, ab/dmg or some specific anti-mage things like spell failure infliction or something). This might incentivize more characters to fill that concept and make casters a little more careful of showing their talent.
Magic might be essential for dungeoning, but that doesn't mean people should walk around illuminated like a dance floor downtown on a Saturday night everywhere else. Most characters could quite easily hide 90% of their spellcasting and fondness for magic, but I think there is a lack of willingness to do it.
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Magic might be essential for dungeoning, but that doesn't mean people should walk around illuminated like a dance floor downtown on a Saturday night everywhere else. Most characters could quite easily hide 90% of their spellcasting and fondness for magic, but I think there is a lack of willingness to do it.
It is not hard to keep this stuff out of sight, honestly. People choose not to because there is rarely consequence for it. OCR will fix it for the most egregious cases, but not a day passes without me seeing or hearing someone casting around Vallaki.
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Magic might be essential for dungeoning, but that doesn't mean people should walk around illuminated like a dance floor downtown on a Saturday night everywhere else. Most characters could quite easily hide 90% of their spellcasting and fondness for magic, but I think there is a lack of willingness to do it.
It is not hard to keep this stuff out of sight, honestly. People choose not to because there is rarely consequence for it. OCR will fix it for the most egregious cases, but not a day passes without me seeing or hearing someone casting around Vallaki.
I've been playing Narcissa for a few months now and have been trying to avoid letting her magic become known (too well) in Vallaki. You can buff yourself in an inn room, or go outside to a place that isn't populated to do magic. It's actually pretty easy if you put a little effort and thought into it, you could take metamagic feats for silent spell, or still spell, there are lots of rp choices to keep it hidden, however... If you're playing to dungeon like a MMO then it may become a foolish thing to do as a waste of a feat in favour of a more powerful build. But I do think the issue may rest in the fact that right now there doesn't seem to be as many active garda as in the past (course my pain has massively diminished my play lately so I could be mistaken) to enforce such things. I remember in the past the garda would confiscate overtly magical items, had a few powerful items confiscated from Erzsebet when she was around in the past I think.
Maybe we need to do a sort of native character NCE and a slew of us create native Barovian characters to join the garda, create the xenophobia that the outlanders should experience, and just over all give a boost to the setting?
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Magic might be essential for dungeoning, but that doesn't mean people should walk around illuminated like a dance floor downtown on a Saturday night everywhere else. Most characters could quite easily hide 90% of their spellcasting and fondness for magic, but I think there is a lack of willingness to do it.
It is not hard to keep this stuff out of sight, honestly. People choose not to because there is rarely consequence for it. OCR will fix it for the most egregious cases, but not a day passes without me seeing or hearing someone casting around Vallaki.
I've been playing Narcissa for a few months now and have been trying to avoid letting her magic become known (too well) in Vallaki. You can buff yourself in an inn room, or go outside to a place that isn't populated to do magic. It's actually pretty easy if you put a little effort and thought into it, you could take metamagic feats for silent spell, or still spell, there are lots of rp choices to keep it hidden, however... If you're playing to dungeon like a MMO then it may become a foolish thing to do as a waste of a feat in favour of a more powerful build. But I do think the issue may rest in the fact that right now there doesn't seem to be as many active garda as in the past (course my pain has massively diminished my play lately so I could be mistaken) to enforce such things. I remember in the past the garda would confiscate overtly magical items, had a few powerful items confiscated from Erzsebet when she was around in the past I think.
Maybe we need to do a sort of native character NCE and a slew of us create native Barovian characters to join the garda, create the xenophobia that the outlanders should experience, and just over all give a boost to the setting?
Narcissa knows magic?!?!?!
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I've been playing Narcissa for a few months now and have been trying to avoid letting her magic become known (too well) in Vallaki. You can buff yourself in an inn room, or go outside to a place that isn't populated to do magic. It's actually pretty easy if you put a little effort and thought into it, you could take metamagic feats for silent spell, or still spell, there are lots of rp choices to keep it hidden, however... If you're playing to dungeon like a MMO then it may become a foolish thing to do as a waste of a feat in favour of a more powerful build. But I do think the issue may rest in the fact that right now there doesn't seem to be as many active garda as in the past (course my pain has massively diminished my play lately so I could be mistaken) to enforce such things. I remember in the past the garda would confiscate overtly magical items, had a few powerful items confiscated from Erzsebet when she was around in the past I think.
Maybe we need to do a sort of native character NCE and a slew of us create native Barovian characters to join the garda, create the xenophobia that the outlanders should experience, and just over all give a boost to the setting?
I think its not even garda-specific. The outlander PCs outnumber the native PCs by a degree of magnitude, and that disparity skews the setting and it makes it difficult for the natives TO enforce the setting. A garda may be a garda but they don't have a death wish, they're generally not going to take on a party of 8 casting around outskirts, for instance, at least not without help. I do agree a "native character" NCE would be a good idea towards this end.
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I mean. Is it illegal? Or just frowned upon? Or... Something else? Because now I'm even unsure about it. Vallaki was some sort of hub of magic at some point? No longer? Can we get more proper clarification on this?
Magic is not illegal in Vallaki. It IS illegal in some parts of Barovia. The general feeling of the garda towards magic is that it is weird and scary and freaks out the locals. Freaking out the locals IS illegal in Vallaki. (Disturbing the peace)
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As far as the bigger picture goes, though, the outskirts still just exists in a weird void. Native Barovians have little reason to 'hang out' in the outskirts like all the adventurers do when looking for a dungeon group or to buy gear. They don't gather outside the sanctuary to hear Morninglord worshipers preach, nor would the tavern be of any concern to them. Guards are only really there because that's a trade road, it otherwise has no infrastructure that supports or attracts the common Barovian, certainly not the magic-fearing villagers, definitely not the few well to do merchants. A "native character" NCE would have to take place in the town itself, because native Barovians have been cowed into fear and apathy for longer than collective memory can account for. They are not a curious people interested in history or the future.
As far as enforcing the setting, guards and native PCs are not tasked with that. We all have that responsibility no matter what character we're playing, but while you can lead a horse to water you can't make it drink. Some characters are better positioned. The NPCs still outnumber PCs over 1,000:1, and anything the PCs do can be erased if they go offline for a few days. The devs have said they'll push more background NPCs into the foreground to counter this behaviour if they deem it necessary. I think that'd be a positive change. It's something that would benefit everyone, including those who insist they want to RP the very strangest of outlanders. They'd finally be noticed for their actions rather than be considered the bar that we all judge the outskirts circus by.
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As far as the bigger picture goes, though, the outskirts still just exists in a weird void. Native Barovians have little reason to 'hang out' in the outskirts like all the adventurers do when looking for a dungeon group or to buy gear. They don't gather outside the sanctuary to hear Morninglord worshipers preach, nor would the tavern be of any concern to them. Guards are only really there because that's a trade road, it otherwise has no infrastructure that supports or attracts the common Barovian, certainly not the magic-fearing villagers, definitely not the few well to do merchants. A "native character" NCE would have to take place in the town itself, because native Barovians have been cowed into fear and apathy for longer than collective memory can account for. They are not a curious people interested in history or the future.
Well, that's not strictly the case, there is no "void" at the entrance/exit points of any town or city, they should be a bustling hubs of activity and traffic.
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I think the best way to solve this would be for more of us to play natives that way we can help keep the feeling of the setting more true. Even if it's not a true NCE, perhaps we could use a group of players who are willing to delve into the native side of the server, like a large group. That way we can populate Vallaki with natives and make it harder on the outlanders. I know in the past with Erzsebet I once tried to feed this sort of idea that outlanders were a threat, all their open use of magic, and carrying weapons and walking through the city in armour that glows (etc) being more dangerous than Gundarakites... Maybe we could get a write up of the laws in the village of Barovia and the Wachter side of things that way we may have a bit more of awareness
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As far as the bigger picture goes, though, the outskirts still just exists in a weird void. Native Barovians have little reason to 'hang out' in the outskirts like all the adventurers do when looking for a dungeon group or to buy gear. They don't gather outside the sanctuary to hear Morninglord worshipers preach, nor would the tavern be of any concern to them. Guards are only really there because that's a trade road, it otherwise has no infrastructure that supports or attracts the common Barovian, certainly not the magic-fearing villagers, definitely not the few well to do merchants. A "native character" NCE would have to take place in the town itself, because native Barovians have been cowed into fear and apathy for longer than collective memory can account for. They are not a curious people interested in history or the future.
Well, that's not strictly the case, there is no "void" at the entrance/exit points of any town or city, they should be a bustling hubs of activity and traffic.
Yes, I find the idea that someone would never sit at the foot of a city wall for all manner of reasons completely contradictory to pretty much every ounce of human experience we have, and doubly so for oppressived people, who tend to be gentrified outside of the walls. The citystates of medieval times would often have entire little tent-cities outside of them. Moreover, there's plenty of Barovian NPCs living outside the walls in farms, the beekeeper, the fishermen etc etc. Are to surmise that someone playing a civillian, peasant NPC would not be any of those people?
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Yes, I think it would be appropriate to add more NPC peasants to the Outskirts.
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Vallaki is supposed to be a major trading city by Barovian standards, a very important hub for trade. Even horsemen NPCs in the vein of the cavalry Gendarmerie in Lucine, representing the trade and movement on the road, would look quite normal to me and enhance the experience.
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Vallaki is supposed to be a major trading city by Barovian standards, a very important hub for trade. Even horsemen NPCs in the vein of the cavalry Gendarmerie in Lucine, representing the trade and movement on the road, would look quite normal to me and enhance the experience.
Actually that would be really cool to see! Some random npcs from borca, dementlieu, or where ever in the market district or something would be really cool.
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magic in barovia has trough the years has gotten more acceptable as has a few more issues.
what was once feeling (no not the lvl up line) uncommon is made common.
yes people go about with glowing items now, yes more magic is used as are potions and varnishes.
if you did that 10 ish or longer years ago while in view of a guard, you'd get an interaction you might not have liked the outcome off.
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I like the idea of random native NPCs roaming the road back and forth through the outskirts. It would create a modest natural deterrent to PC behavior, since they would get more reputation hits by doing magic in eyeshot of the natives during daylight hours at least.
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As far as the bigger picture goes, though, the outskirts still just exists in a weird void. Native Barovians have little reason to 'hang out' in the outskirts like all the adventurers do when looking for a dungeon group or to buy gear. They don't gather outside the sanctuary to hear Morninglord worshipers preach, nor would the tavern be of any concern to them. Guards are only really there because that's a trade road, it otherwise has no infrastructure that supports or attracts the common Barovian, certainly not the magic-fearing villagers, definitely not the few well to do merchants. A "native character" NCE would have to take place in the town itself, because native Barovians have been cowed into fear and apathy for longer than collective memory can account for. They are not a curious people interested in history or the future.
Well, that's not strictly the case, there is no "void" at the entrance/exit points of any town or city, they should be a bustling hubs of activity and traffic.
Yes, I find the idea that someone would never sit at the foot of a city wall for all manner of reasons completely contradictory to pretty much every ounce of human experience we have, and doubly so for oppressived people, who tend to be gentrified outside of the walls. The citystates of medieval times would often have entire little tent-cities outside of them. Moreover, there's plenty of Barovian NPCs living outside the walls in farms, the beekeeper, the fishermen etc etc. Are to surmise that someone playing a civillian, peasant NPC would not be any of those people?
I do suggest this, because it's true. The other gates have NPCs, but not this one. It is deserted. It is treated like a void by most people RPing there, not a slice of Barovia. I'm only reporting on the reality of the situation. There is no tent city there, there are no caravans moving through it. I would like seeing them added, but they just aren't there right now.
Yes, it should be a bustling hub of traffic and activity. But it isn't. PCs are an entirely temporary presence that represent 0.1% of the population and anything they do can be erased by the server being reset.
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if it werent a huge load for the server id love having carts and donkeys and oot traic coming and going from the gates.
outlanders and players would have the visual representation of their value in the greater scheme of the city, and not the inflated egotistic view of being the owners of the outskirts (which is an already dubious title, but well)
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It would look fantastic really. It would set the outskirts up for much better immersion instead of being sort of a blank slate.
The environmental storytelling going on with it right now tells us that it isn't a hub of NPC activity like I previously explained. There are no NPC patrons of the tavern, we see no caravans, we see no peasants begging or peddling junk, the sanctuary is abandoned. There's just Radu and a couple gate guards who can't even see the sanctuary itself, but if you head in through the gates, that all changes, you have a full sanctuary, there are peasants and beggars, there are oxen on the side of the road, the taverns have people in them.
It projects a very clear image of the outskirts being a place anyone can do whatever they want because there's no one to see it except other players. Only the devs can change that.
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It's fatigue, Arthiel.
Many folks would love to have a setting enforced as strictly as you're envisioning, but that requires a majority to want that, and to be able to enforce that. Neither of these conditions are true.
The path of least resistance is to do whatever you feel like regardless of if it's damaging to the setting. Therefore people standing outside that path are going to be discounted and shunned and treated as old men yelling at clouds. And being that pariah is tiring and isolating.
The environment will reflect what the average player wants without external influence (ie, DMs and staff actively punishing setting-breaching behaviour). And in the outskirts especially, the number of people who want to see the kind of environment the server advertises is simply outnumbered by the people who are ambivalent about it, and want to either do their own thing, or outright mock it, or consider themselves an exception.
The outskirts isn't going to become a high-RP area without DMs being willing to tell people how to RP - which I believe they don't want to do, understandably, as it's a task fraught with long, tiring conversations for them, and handling endless complaints.
The Outskirts exists as a place you constantly work to not be in. Find events that aren't there, and attend. Join factions that do stuff elsewhere. Create reasons for groups of likeminded people to leave that area. It's where your immersion, and the enchantment of the server goes to die.
Once you leave the sightline of the crowds of high level casters (who really should know better), the night actually becomes pretty scary again.