Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: EO on June 06, 2022, 10:40:39 PM

Title: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on June 06, 2022, 10:40:39 PM
In preparation for the next hak update, which will include new clothing options, heads, item appearances, placeables, and various fixes, here's information on another new base class, the Warlock (taken from Complete Arcane).

Please note that not all icons are finished yet so no need to report missing icons at this point. We will need your help testing it thoroughly as we've introduced many new mechanics with this class. We also appreciate any feedback (bugs, odd VFX, mismatched things, overtly problematic features, etc.)

Some elements are still subject to change so this shouldn't be considered a final version but it should give you an idea of what it will be like on POTM:

Quote
Born of a supernatural bloodline, a warlock seeks to master the perilous magic that suffuses their soul. Many warlocks are champions for the forces of evil or chaos, sometimes both. Long ago, their ancestors forged grim pacts with dangerous extraplanar powers, trading away portions of their souls in exchange for supernatural power. While some warlocks have turned away from evil others still actively oppose it, they are still chained by the old pacts through which they derive their powers. The demand to further the designs of their dark patrons, or to resist them, drives most warlocks to seek the opportunities for power, wealth, and great deeds, for good or ill.

Unlike sorcerers, wizards, or other arcanists, who approach magic through the medium of spells, a warlock invokes powerful magic through willpower alone. By harnessing his innate magical gift through that and determination, a warlock can perform all manner of supernatural feats known as invocations, or otherwise scour their foes with eldritch power and raw magical energy. As their power grows, they are able to call upon the unnatural resilience of their patrons and resist the elements as they would.

WARNING: To cast an invocation, a warlock must have a Charisma score of 10 + the incantation's grade. For example, to cast a greater invocation, a warlock must have a Charisma of 14.

- Base Attack Bonus: +3 / 4 Levels.
- Hit Die: d6.
- Primary Saving Throws: Will.
- Proficiencies: All simple weapons and light armor. Warlocks are not proficient with shields.
- Skill Points (*4 at 1st level): 2 + Int Modifier.
- Spellcasting: Invocations (Charisma-based, no spell preparation, spell failure from medium and heavy armor, and shields is a factor)
- Ex-Warlocks: A warlock that is no longer either chaotic or evil loses all warlock spells and abilities and cannot gain levels until their alignment is either chaotic or evil again.

Class Skills: Antagonize, Concentration, Disguise, Heal, Influence, Lore, Parry, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device.
Unavailable Skills: Animal Empathy.

ABILITIES:

Level
1: Eldritch Blast - At will, use eldritch power to deal magical damage.
3: Damage Reduction I - Gain 1/+1 damage reduction.
7: Damage Reduction II - Gain 2/+1 damage reduction.
8: Fiendish Resilience I (1x/day) - Fast healing 1.
10: Energy Resistance I - Gain 5 damage resistance vs 2 types of energy.
11: Damage Reduction III - Gain 3/+2 damage reduction.
13: Fiendish Resilience II (1x/day) - Fast healing 2.
15: Damage Reduction IV - Gain 4/+2 damage reduction.
18: Fiendish Resilience III (1x/day) - Fast healing 5.
19: Damage Reduction V - Gain 5/+3 damage reduction.
20: Energy Resistance II - Gain 10 damage resistance vs 2 types of energy.

INVOCATIONS:
Warlocks do not prepare or cast spells as other wielders of arcane magic do. Instead, they possess a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and abilities known as invocations that require them to focus the wild energy that suffuses their soul. A warlock can use any invocation he knows at will, with the following qualifications:

A warlock's invocations are spell-like abilities; using an invocation therefore provokes attacks of opportunity. An invocation can be disrupted, just as a spell can be ruined during casting. A warlock is entitled to a Concentration check to successfully use an invocation if he is hit by an attack while invoking, just as a spellcaster would be. A warlock's invocations are subject to spell resistance unless an invocation's description specifically states otherwise. A warlock's caster level with his invocations is equal to his warlock level.

The save DC for an invocation (if it allows a save) is 10 + equivalent spell level + the warlock's Charisma modifier. Since spell-like abilities are not actually spells, a warlock cannot benefit from the Spell Focus feat.

The four grades of invocations, in order of their relative power, are least, lesser, greater, and dark. A warlock begins with knowledge of one invocation, which must be of the lowest grade (least). As a warlock gains levels, he learns new invocations.

At any level when a warlock learns a new invocation, he can also replace an invocation he already knows with another invocation of the same grade.

Finally, unlike other spell-like abilities, invocations are subject to arcane spell failure chance from medium and heavy armor, and shields.

Associated Feats

Eldritch Blast
Spoiler: show
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Type of Feat: Class
Prerequisite: Warlock level 1.
Specifics: The first ability a warlock learns is eldritch blast. A warlock attacks his foes with eldritch power, using baleful magical energy to deal damage and sometimes impart other debilitating effects.

An eldritch blast is a ray with a range of 60 feet. It is a ranged touch attack that affects a single target, allowing no saving throw. An eldritch blast deals 1d6 points of damage at level 1, 2d6 at level 3, 3d6 at level 5, 4d6 at level 7, 5d6 at level 9, 6d6 at level 11, 7d6 at level 14, 8d6 at level 17, and 9d6 at level 20. An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. If the character applies an invocation to his eldritch blast, his eldritch blast uses the level equivalent of the shape or essence.

An eldritch blast is subject to spell resistance, although the Spell Penetration feat and other effects that improve caster level checks to overcome spell resistance also apply to eldritch blast. An eldritch blast deals half damage to objects. Metamagic feats cannot improve a warlock's eldritch blast.

A warlock can use eldritch blast at will.
Use: Selected in the spells list.


Fiendish Resilience I (upgrades according to the table above)
Spoiler: show
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Type of Feat: Class
Prerequisite: Warlock level 8.
Specifics: A warlock knows the trick of fiendish resilience. Once per day, as a free action, he can enter a state that lasts for 2 turns. While in this state, the warlock gains fast healing 1.
Use: Automatic.


Energy Resistance
Spoiler: show
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Type of Feat: Class
Prerequisite: Warlock level 10.
Specifics: The character gains resistance 5 to two elemental damage sources of his choice. (The first 5 points of damage of this type of energy are ignored.) This resistance increases to 10 at level 20.
Use: Automatic.


Damage Reduction I (increases according to the table above)
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: Class
Prerequisite: Warlock level 3.
Specifics: Fortified by the supernatural power flowing in his body, a warlock is resistant to physical attacks, gaining damage reduction 1/+1.
Use: Automatic.


Invocation Focus
Spoiler: show
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Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 1st-level invocations.
Required for: Greater Invocation Focus.
Specifics: The warlock with this feat is adept at using invocations. He gains a +2 bonus to the save DC for all invocations he uses, including Eldritch Blast.
Use: Automatic.


Greater Invocation Focus
Spoiler: show
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Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Invocation Focus.
Specifics: The warlock becomes even more adept with invocations. He gains a +4 bonus to the save DC for all invocations he uses, including Eldritch Blast.
Use: Automatic.


Invocations:
Spoiler: show
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All-Seeing Eyes
Aura of Flame
Beguiling Influence
Beshadowed Blast
Bewitching Blast
Binding Blast
Brimstone Blast
Call of the Beast
Caustic Mire
Charm
Chilling Tentacles
Cocoon of Refuse
Cold Comfort
Curse of Despair
Dark One's Own Luck
Darkness
Deafening Roar
Devil's Sight
Devour Magic
Draconic Knowledge
Draconic Toughness
Dread Seizure
Eldritch Chain
Eldritch Cone
Eldritch Doom
Eldritch Line
Endure Exposure
Energy Immunity
Energy Resistance
Enervating Shadow
Entropic Warding
Frightful Blast
Hammer Blast
Hellrime Blast
Hellspawned Grace
Hindering Blast
Ignore the Pyre
Instill Vulnerability
Invocation Grade: Lesser
Leaps and Bounds
Magic Insight
Miasmic Cloud
Noxious Blast
Otherworldly Whispers
Painful Slumber of Ages
Penetrating Blast
Relentless Dispelling
Repelling Blast
Retributive Invisibility
Scalding Gust
See the Unseen
Sickening Blast
Spider-Shape
Swimming the Styx
Terrifying Roar
The Dead Walk
Thieves' Bane
Utterdark Blast
Vitriolic Blast
Voice of Madness
Voidsense
Voracious Dispelling
Walk Unseen
Wall of Perilous Flame
Witchwood Step
Word of Changing
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: zDark Shadowz on June 06, 2022, 11:11:51 PM
Will the prestige classes that would usually advance spellcasting level, add to the level of Eldritch Blast and existing invocations currently known?

Multiclassing with prestige classes with Warlock is a bit unique.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Swan on June 07, 2022, 12:12:10 AM
Will the prestige classes that would usually advance spellcasting level, add to the level of Eldritch Blast and existing invocations currently known?

Multiclassing with prestige classes with Warlock is a bit unique.
Probably not, since EB is a spell-like ability, and not an actual spell.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Dardonas on June 07, 2022, 12:43:49 AM
Assuming this is where I should be posting test server bugs:

The Thieve's Bane invocation when EMPOWERED makes doors that are plot locked.  They cannot be bashed or picked, there is no DC.  It also does not remove the lock from the previous door. 

Mordekainen's Disjunction cannot target a Thieve's Bane door.

Some dispels such as Voracious Dispelling are not correctly dispelling the Thieves' Bane "lock."

A normally cast Thieves' Bane does not correctly put the right DCs for unlocking or bashing the containers.  The strength check for a level 20 warlock with 22 Charisma is a DC 38 Strength.  A open lock DC is DC 36.  Accord to the spell description this should be 40 Open Lock at level 20, and 30 Strength for bashing.

Counterspell mode did not seem to work on all spells, only "spells" the warlock knows, even when having a dispel invocation.

Metamagics can currently be used on Eldritch Blast, such as Empower Spell.

Ennervating Shadows currently spams the caster's combat log with the DC message.

Ennervating Shadows DC seems to be misleading, where it says in the combat log it is DC 1, but people clearly fail it so it is higher.

Eldritch Chain is not hitting more than 2 targets at higher levels.

Eldritch Doom is only hitting one target, appearing to be the closest target to the caster.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Revenant on June 07, 2022, 02:40:46 AM
Will the prestige classes that would usually advance spellcasting level, add to the level of Eldritch Blast and existing invocations currently known?

Multiclassing with prestige classes with Warlock is a bit unique.

The source material specified the way that Warlock qualifies for and is enhanced by prestige classes. Basically, Warlock wouldn't qualify for any of the spellcasting PrCs, if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: inkcorvid on June 07, 2022, 08:41:22 AM
Enervating Shadows seems to force the caster to make fortitude saves.

Spoiler: show
(https://i.imgur.com/31IB6i1.png)


Misamic cloud bestows concealment that is permanent.

Spoiler: show
(https://i.imgur.com/aRAYsz6.png)
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Vissy on June 07, 2022, 08:56:34 AM
Enervating Shadows and Miasmic Cloud seem to apply a bit randomly; they did not have any effect on Invidian foes (both invocation focuses, +5 Charisma bonus). Eldritch Doom also didn't hit all enemies in range consistently.

Having played the class a bit on the test server, I do worry a bit about higher-level warlocks (level 14+). They might get left behind by other classes especially in higher level content, since warlocks do low damage and they can't really contribute in any way in the higher level dungeons on the server, from what I've seen. Mobs will either have high enough saves to completely ignore them, or the eldritch blasts just do kind of negligible damage (or high touch AC mobs dodge them entirely). At best, it seems like the warlock just does one thing in high level content, and that's hit the Eldritch Blast button (and try to survive and keep up with the group that does the actual work).
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Nezmith on June 07, 2022, 09:25:45 AM
At best, it seems like the warlock just does one thing in high level content, and that's hit the Eldritch Blast button (and try to survive and keep up with the group that does the actual work).

Welcome to warlock  :lol:

I can't play on the test server whatsoever, but I was under the impression some of the eldritch blast essences allowed you to completely bypass spell resistance. Is that not the case?
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Edward on June 07, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Wall of perilous flames is really strong, if you extend them and cast 10 of them and something walks into it, it's almost immediately dead because of the half magic damage it does; if it's not got high SR and or 4th circle spell immunity.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Terant92 on June 07, 2022, 03:55:21 PM
Eldritch Chain is not working properly. The spell is supposed to "jump" between enemies up to 4 enemies at LVL 20 but is jumping only two times even if there are four more enemies inside the 30ft radius.

Something that also seemed odd about Eldritch Chain is it was prioritizing structures and placeables above actual enemies. The rolls seen below were taken with over 6 enemies in range. This also happens with enemies corpses.

(https://snipboard.io/dhbxOv.jpg)
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: DM Erebus on June 07, 2022, 03:57:04 PM
- Confirm, Eldritch Blast affects the nearest creature only.
- Miasmic Cloud does not seem to be applying a movement penalty as intended.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on June 07, 2022, 10:01:12 PM
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The Thieve's Bane invocation when EMPOWERED makes doors that are plot locked.  They cannot be bashed or picked, there is no DC.  It also does not remove the lock from the previous door.

Mordekainen's Disjunction cannot target a Thieve's Bane door.

Some dispels such as Voracious Dispelling are not correctly dispelling the Thieves' Bane "lock."

A normally cast Thieves' Bane does not correctly put the right DCs for unlocking or bashing the containers.  The strength check for a level 20 warlock with 22 Charisma is a DC 38 Strength.  A open lock DC is DC 36.  Accord to the spell description this should be 40 Open Lock at level 20, and 30 Strength for bashing.

I've found the cause and will fix these. The Mord's will require a new version of the test hak, others have already been updated on the test server, if you can test.

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Counterspell mode did not seem to work on all spells, only "spells" the warlock knows, even when having a dispel invocation.

Unfortunately Dispel spells acting as universal counters is hardcoded.

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Metamagics can currently be used on Eldritch Blast, such as Empower Spell.

An oversight; not sure yet if I'll fix this to be closer to PnP or keep it to make Eldritch Blast more powerful.

Quote
Ennervating Shadows currently spams the caster's combat log with the DC message.

Ennervating Shadows DC seems to be misleading, where it says in the combat log it is DC 1, but people clearly fail it so it is higher.

I've fixed both on the test server. Should now work properly.

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Eldritch Chain is not hitting more than 2 targets at higher levels.

Eldritch Chain is not working properly. The spell is supposed to "jump" between enemies up to 4 enemies at LVL 20 but is jumping only two times even if there are four more enemies inside the 30ft radius.

Something that also seemed odd about Eldritch Chain is it was prioritizing structures and placeables above actual enemies. The rolls seen below were taken with over 6 enemies in range. This also happens with enemies corpses.

Eldritch Chain affects placeables/doors, which may explain why you guys see it affecting less creatures. I'll change it to only affect creatures though to make it more straightforward.

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Eldritch Doom is only hitting one target, appearing to be the closest target to the caster.

I think I've found the cause and fixed it on the test server, but best test again.

Quote
Enervating Shadows seems to force the caster to make fortitude saves.

Misamic cloud bestows concealment that is permanent.

These should now be fixed on the test server. I'll also remove the extra round duration on Miasmic Cloud effects since it's pretty buggy.

Quote
Enervating Shadows and Miasmic Cloud seem to apply a bit randomly; they did not have any effect on Invidian foes (both invocation focuses, +5 Charisma bonus). Eldritch Doom also didn't hit all enemies in range consistently.

I couldn't recreate those specifically but hopefully the aforementioned fixes will help.

Quote
- Miasmic Cloud does not seem to be applying a movement penalty as intended.

I think I've fixed this on the test server.

Keep the reports coming!
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: herkles on June 07, 2022, 10:14:34 PM
The invocation Call of the Beast gives you animal Empathy points. However, AE, is a trained Skill that only Druids and Rangers get. Meaning that the boost doesn't work. Telling me I must have skill Ranks to use this ability.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on June 07, 2022, 10:21:02 PM
The invocation Call of the Beast gives you animal Empathy points. However, AE, is a trained Skill that only Druids and Rangers get. Meaning that the boost doesn't work. Telling me I must have skill Ranks to use this ability.

I'll fix this.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Dardonas on June 07, 2022, 10:47:40 PM
An oversight; not sure yet if I'll fix this to be closer to PnP or keep it to make Eldritch Blast more powerful.

I think I'd recommend keeping it metamagickable.  Right now, it feels like Warlocks need a bit more "oomph" to their damage for later game content.  Sure, you can cheese certain things by layering your spells but that requires tons of buildup.  With empowered, their damage is comparable to a basic orb spell cast by a wizard or sorcerer.

I tested on trying to solo content on the test server, like Cursts, and its certainly possible, but it is a slog.  A wizard, sorcerer, or a mechanically apt warmage are able to solo things already in half the time.  Though, if you don't want to take soloing as a measurement of class strength (understandably), I've been considering how they would fit into a dungeon.  For most lower tier dungeons, they're going to be auxillary damage.  They are there, but they aren't really doing much to help.  Until they get Ennerving Shadows, they might even cause some issues with how the AI likes to run at people who are casting spells.  For mid-tier content, they are going to be good at hitting things with Eldritch Chain and softening enemies up.  Higher content, however, is where they are going to struggle.  A lot of enemies will just dodge their touch attacks.  Their DCs will be pretty solid for Charisma-focused Warlocks and spells like Eldritch Doom will have mild use against foes like Salt Shadows and Ebon Knight Harbingers, but it will likely be doing 15-52 damage on a save or fail.   Against enemies like the Sleeping King and Malthor, however, I feel they are going to be totally useless because their saves and AC are tough to overcome.

One thing that got brought up back during the Warmage release was the idea of adding a Weapon Focus: Touch Attacks, and possible Improved Critical: Touch Attacks.  I feel like if any class really, really needs something like that, it's going to be Warlock.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Dardonas on June 07, 2022, 11:37:15 PM
Quote
Eldritch Chain is not hitting more than 2 targets at higher levels.

Eldritch Chain is not working properly. The spell is supposed to "jump" between enemies up to 4 enemies at LVL 20 but is jumping only two times even if there are four more enemies inside the 30ft radius.

Something that also seemed odd about Eldritch Chain is it was prioritizing structures and placeables above actual enemies. The rolls seen below were taken with over 6 enemies in range. This also happens with enemies corpses.

Eldritch Chain affects placeables/doors, which may explain why you guys see it affecting less creatures. I'll change it to only affect creatures though to make it more straightforward.

This still doesn't seem to be reliably jumping in clusters of enemies to other nearby foes, even ones that are surrounding you.  It sometimes arcs to three, but rarely does it go to four.  It may have to do with enemies that die during the chain, as I was testing on some Gremishka and Kreshnar in Hazlan.  It also jumped to a herb node a couple of times still when one was nearby.

Quote
Eldritch Doom is only hitting one target, appearing to be the closest target to the caster.

I think I've found the cause and fixed it on the test server, but best test again.

This does not seem to be fixed.  Even with four enemies attacking me in melee, it only hit one enemy EXCEPT for once, when it hit two enemies.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Revenant on June 08, 2022, 12:40:43 AM
Layering damage spells shouldn't even be possible. In PnP you can't drop two Walls of Fire on the same space; you could do rows of them, but a creature would never take damage from ten walls when passing through one space.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Favee on June 08, 2022, 01:15:39 AM
Layering damage spells shouldn't even be possible. In PnP you can't drop two Walls of Fire on the same space; you could do rows of them, but a creature would never take damage from ten walls when passing through one space.

I'd love if this worked properly for NWN.  Stacking acid fogs, evards and AoE spells in general makes for increasingly boring gameplay.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Vissy on June 08, 2022, 03:05:41 AM
An oversight; not sure yet if I'll fix this to be closer to PnP or keep it to make Eldritch Blast more powerful.

I think I'd recommend keeping it metamagickable.  Right now, it feels like Warlocks need a bit more "oomph" to there damage for later game content.  Sure, you can cheese certain things by layering your spells but that requires tons of buildup.  With empowered, their damage is comparable to a basic orb spell cast by a wizard or sorcerer.

I tested on trying to solo content on the test server, like Cursts, and its certainly possible, but it is a slog.  A wizard, sorcerer, or a mechanically apt warmage are able to solo things already in half the time.  Though, if you don't want to take soloing as a measurement of class strength (understandably), I've been considering how they would fit into a dungeon.  For most lower tier dungeons, they're going to be auxillary damage.  They are there, but they aren't really doing much to help.  Until they get Ennerving Shadows, they might even cause some issues with how the AI likes to run at people who are casting spells.  For mid-tier content, they are going to be good at hitting things with Eldritch Chain and softening enemies up.  Higher content, however, is where they are going to struggle.  A lot of enemies will just dodge their touch attacks.  Their DCs will be pretty solid for Charisma-focused Warlocks and spells like Eldritch Doom will have mild use against foes like Salt Shadows and Ebon Knight Harbingers, but it will likely be doing 15-52 damage on a save or fail.   Against enemies like the Sleeping King and Malthor, however, I feel they are going to be totally useless because their saves and AC are tough to overcome.

One thing that got brought up back during the Warmage release was the idea of adding a Weapon Focus: Touch Attacks, and possible Improved Critical: Touch Attacks.  I feel like if any class really, really needs something like that, it's going to be Warlock.

Agree with this, though even were those feats added it wouldn't really solve the problem of a warlock at higher tier content. Namely: every other class analogue to the Warlock (Bard, Druid, Cleric, etc) can contribute significantly with party wards and personal melee/ranged potential. The Warlock has neither of those. Druids have wild shape and elemental essence, clerics divine power and divine favor, bard has bard song and curse song, the Warlock has Eldritch Blast and a 100% concealment spell that has to be reapplied every 5 rounds (every 10 rounds extended). And thanks to the exhaustion system, Warlocks - due to having to cast all the time in combat - will tire out and get exhausted very, very quickly.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: blur927 on June 08, 2022, 10:21:16 AM
Warlock satisfies the arcane caster requirement for Arcane Archer but it's not listed in the Arcane Archer class description under requirements.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Nezmith on June 08, 2022, 12:53:33 PM
As Warlocks are somewhat similar to Sorcerers in concept, any power discrepancies could be made up with the addition of pacts and their related boons later down the line. They still have a great deal of potential as presented so I think everyone should let the dust settle before they rush to judgement on end-game content. Solo capability has never been the measurement of balance on this server, either.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on June 08, 2022, 01:11:43 PM
Quote
This still doesn't seem to be reliably jumping in clusters of enemies to other nearby foes, even ones that are surrounding you.  It sometimes arcs to three, but rarely does it go to four.  It may have to do with enemies that die during the chain, as I was testing on some Gremishka and Kreshnar in Hazlan.  It also jumped to a herb node a couple of times still when one was nearby.

Can you try again? I had forgotten to change the script itself.

Quote
This does not seem to be fixed.  Even with four enemies attacking me in melee, it only hit one enemy EXCEPT for once, when it hit two enemies.

I can't recreate this but I made a few tweaks to the script, maybe check if it's helped.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Dardonas on June 08, 2022, 02:34:42 PM
Quote
This still doesn't seem to be reliably jumping in clusters of enemies to other nearby foes, even ones that are surrounding you.  It sometimes arcs to three, but rarely does it go to four.  It may have to do with enemies that die during the chain, as I was testing on some Gremishka and Kreshnar in Hazlan.  It also jumped to a herb node a couple of times still when one was nearby.

Can you try again? I had forgotten to change the script itself.

Quote
This does not seem to be fixed.  Even with four enemies attacking me in melee, it only hit one enemy EXCEPT for once, when it hit two enemies.

I can't recreate this but I made a few tweaks to the script, maybe check if it's helped.

Both seem fixed now and working.  I'm iffy on Eldritch Chain, but I did see it chain to 3+ targets several times, but also saw a few times where secondary targets that it should have been arced to were not being struck.  Maybe there's something with the angles of how you cast it?  Can't say for sure, I'd need to play around with it some more.  But, it does seem much more reliable now.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Artemis on June 09, 2022, 11:33:23 PM
An unusual bug of some sort.

Was using dead walk invocation, and had the devil sight already cast on me. I rested, it unsummoned the skeletal chieftain.

I resummoned one, and my character perceived the skeletal chieftain as being invis. I could not target it with anything, nor see it unless I was close enough for this invis range to become visible.

Upon casting the devil sight again, all was well. When the chieftain was in this invis mode, I could not target it with anything either. I was using the enervating shadow a decent amount as well, so might be tied to that too.

Also, A few times when the enervating shadow was activated, I cast eldritch blast and the attacks of opportunity still hit me from dire spiders. It did not proc the concealment roll in the combat log, but the enervating shadow was activated. It only happened to me with some dire spiders even though I used it on a ton on monsters.

So far, its awesome!
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on June 10, 2022, 12:51:57 PM
Quote
I resummoned one, and my character perceived the skeletal chieftain as being invis. I could not target it with anything, nor see it unless I was close enough for this invis range to become visible.

That's the Darkvision bug; there's no easy fix for it since it's hardcoded. It affects Ultravision as well.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: inkcorvid on June 13, 2022, 11:50:43 AM
Retributive Invisibility currently doesn't seem to work properly.
     When the character attacks or uses @dispel invis, the 50% concealment is also gone. This seems like a bug.
     No shockwave seems to result from the @dispel, @dispel invis or @dispel concealment commands, though I don't know if that should result in a shockwave.

Mist Horrors seem to be somehow immune to Wall of Perilous Flame. When they float over it, they take only the fire damage (to which they are immune) and no magic damage. Is that a property of their ability to fly?

(https://i.imgur.com/Z3CdbCW.png)
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on June 13, 2022, 09:49:16 PM
Retributive Invisibility currently doesn't seem to work properly.
     When the character attacks or uses @dispel invis, the 50% concealment is also gone. This seems like a bug.
     No shockwave seems to result from the @dispel, @dispel invis or @dispel concealment commands, though I don't know if that should result in a shockwave.

Yeah, that's intentional. It only fires off if dispelled by a Dispel Magic spell, not when removing your own VFX.

I'll fix the concealment bug though.

Quote
Mist Horrors seem to be somehow immune to Wall of Perilous Flame. When they float over it, they take only the fire damage (to which they are immune) and no magic damage. Is that a property of their ability to fly?

(https://i.imgur.com/Z3CdbCW.png)

Mist Horrors are incorporeal and aren't affected by Wall of Fire/Wall of Perilous Flames.

Keep testing the class; I'm sure there are plenty more bugs to find given the sheer amount of new spells.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Iolantir on June 14, 2022, 08:15:32 AM
Eldritch Chain still doesn't seem to be jumping as many times as it should. It'll always jump to one nearby target, but I've had it jump to more than one additional target only once or twice in my testing on a level 20 character.

I tried going to areas that would have fewer non-creature targets around, such as outside the wolf den and various parts of the sullen woods, but no luck. Usually just one.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on June 15, 2022, 07:54:10 AM
Eldritch Chain still doesn't seem to be jumping as many times as it should. It'll always jump to one nearby target, but I've had it jump to more than one additional target only once or twice in my testing on a level 20 character.

I tried going to areas that would have fewer non-creature targets around, such as outside the wolf den and various parts of the sullen woods, but no luck. Usually just one.

Can you screenshot the combat log next time?
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Iolantir on June 15, 2022, 11:03:52 PM
Eldritch Chain still doesn't seem to be jumping as many times as it should. It'll always jump to one nearby target, but I've had it jump to more than one additional target only once or twice in my testing on a level 20 character.

I tried going to areas that would have fewer non-creature targets around, such as outside the wolf den and various parts of the sullen woods, but no luck. Usually just one.

Can you screenshot the combat log next time?

(https://i.imgur.com/6iSmTe1.png)

I tried to capture as much in this screenshot to show what's happening. Level 15 now. Three targets right next to eachother. It only zaps two.

(https://i.imgur.com/VwwRHza.png)

A lot more viable targets here, still only two.

Then I figured maybe I was just getting unlucky and it was jumping to furniture/etc and canceling it, so I lead some targets to a hallway with nothing that could be interacted with.

(https://i.imgur.com/PymKOKe.png)

Still just two.


I don't know how the spell works, but if it's trying its "closest" target, is it possible it's trying to bounce back to the target that had just died, but failing and thus canceling the chain? The few times I was able to get it to chain to more than 2, I'm pretty sure no targets died.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: tylernwn on June 18, 2022, 10:54:17 AM
Some feedback from the test server:
I did not read through the issues reported already, so some of these may be duplicates.

1. Enervating shadow doesn't break when attacking or doing damage, and can be refreshed before the previous instance ends: Therefore the warlock can be immune to all melee attacks by doing this. Maybe there should be a cooldown of 1 or more rounds between uses.
2. Eldritch chain never hits more than 2 targets. The description of this ability leads me to believe that it should be able to hit more than 2 targets when they are tightly grouped.
3. Call of the Beast grants animal empathy. However this version of animal empathy does not work on any animals. I tried using it on a deer, and got the error message that the target was invalid.
4. Retributive Invisibility doesn't retain the concealment bonus when invisibility is broken.

Looks like a fun class.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Dardonas on June 18, 2022, 11:09:55 AM
1. Enervating shadow doesn't break when attacking or doing damage, and can be refreshed before the previous instance ends: Therefore the warlock can be immune to all melee attacks by doing this. Maybe there should be a cooldown of 1 or more rounds between uses.

Not a bug, but a feature, I believe.  It is easily countered by using light spells on a warlock or having something that ignores concealment, such as spells.  If anything, they need this as the one defensive option they have.  It's fine as is.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: tylernwn on June 18, 2022, 11:21:51 AM
1. Enervating shadow doesn't break when attacking or doing damage, and can be refreshed before the previous instance ends: Therefore the warlock can be immune to all melee attacks by doing this. Maybe there should be a cooldown of 1 or more rounds between uses.

Not a bug, but a feature, I believe.  It is easily countered by using light spells on a warlock or having something that ignores concealment, such as spells.  If anything, they need this as the one defensive option they have.  It's fine as is.

I think the point is legitimate. What is to stop a player from using this ability to be invincible in a variety of pve situations? For example a warlock could tank any mostly melee/archer enemy at night/indoors, starting at the point that the ability is unlocked. Including end game bosses, and such.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Dardonas on June 18, 2022, 11:27:10 AM
1. Enervating shadow doesn't break when attacking or doing damage, and can be refreshed before the previous instance ends: Therefore the warlock can be immune to all melee attacks by doing this. Maybe there should be a cooldown of 1 or more rounds between uses.

Not a bug, but a feature, I believe.  It is easily countered by using light spells on a warlock or having something that ignores concealment, such as spells.  If anything, they need this as the one defensive option they have.  It's fine as is.

I disagree that this is fine as is. You are talking about countering this spell in a pvp situation. However what is to stop a player from using this to be invincible in a variety of pve situations? For example a warlock could tank any mostly melee/archer enemy at night/indoors, starting at the point that the ability is unlocked; desert trolls, ebon harbingers, salt shadows, or really any enemy that uses mainly weapon attacks.

That's fine too. Let them have immunity to attacks in PvE situations. We allowed Warmages, let's open up the door for more unorthodox strategies. They have to constantly keep casting it.

Remember, they aren't immune to spells.  Even trolls cast spells.  Mummies cast spells.  Warlocks only have a d6 hit die.  Not to mention with how they aren't doing big bursts of damage like Warmage that often one-shots things, they'll need something to keep them safe in places where they can cast, as spells often draw melee aggro and warlocks are constantly casting spells.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: tylernwn on June 18, 2022, 11:31:38 AM

That's fine too. Let them have immunity to attacks in PvE situations. We allowed Warmages, let's open up the door for more unorthodox strategies. They have to constantly keep casting it.

Remember, they aren't immune to spells.  Even trolls cast spells.  Mummies cast spells.  Warlocks aren't immune to spells and only have a d6 hit die.  Not to mention with how they aren't doing big bursts of damage like Warmage that often one-shots things, they'll need something to keep them safe in places where they can cast, as spells often draw melee aggro and warlocks are constantly casting spells.

It will be a must-have ability, for sure.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: inkcorvid on June 18, 2022, 12:34:33 PM
Spellcasting while in combat is also the most exhausting thing one can do (+5). It's more exhausting even than running (+4) and melee combat (+3). And the moment exhaustion ticks over, progressively more dire spell failure begins to apply. When your casting of Enervating Shadow fails due to exhaustion, the giant swarm of enemies you've probably attracted with your invincibility rips you to shreds.

It is very strong, but it's also difficult to manage. You've always got to be clicking. And your damage output isn't amazing, so you have to cast non-stop if you're using the Enervating Shadow invincibility strategy. And if you lag out for a few seconds, or mis-time your spellcasting clicks, you die.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on June 18, 2022, 12:55:46 PM
Quote
1. Enervating shadow doesn't break when attacking or doing damage, and can be refreshed before the previous instance ends: Therefore the warlock can be immune to all melee attacks by doing this. Maybe there should be a cooldown of 1 or more rounds between uses.

For now it'll remain as is, but we'll see later if we need to tweak it.

Quote
2. Eldritch chain never hits more than 2 targets. The description of this ability leads me to believe that it should be able to hit more than 2 targets when they are tightly grouped.

I'll try to load another fix for this.

Quote
3. Call of the Beast grants animal empathy. However this version of animal empathy does not work on any animals. I tried using it on a deer, and got the error message that the target was invalid.

Thanks; I've found the cause and will have it fixed in the next version.

Quote
4. Retributive Invisibility doesn't retain the concealment bonus when invisibility is broken.

A fix for this is already pending.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Last Exit to Barovia on June 24, 2022, 09:29:14 AM
Enervating Shadows: Triggers the Fort save against friendly some friendly NPC when cast in their proximity.
Tested this in the temple in the outskirts next to the priestess. Only Horatio was forced to make the saving throw, making them all hostile. Returned to test it again with same result.

Scalding Blast appears to cause doors to close if they are within it's blast area. Could be part of the knockdown script. Tested this in the ML crypts. Triggered on every cast.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Last Exit to Barovia on June 24, 2022, 10:57:23 AM
Invocation: Spider-Shape - does not appear to polymorph into correct size or creature. Indication was when using Improved Knockdown on various creatures. EDIT: Attacks are made at +12 instead of +14, which would be the correct AB with +18 max and the attack made at -4. Should be +14, not +12.

Also attempted in the crypts against skeletons. AB was at +7 (with expertise on) so would be capping still at the +12. Visual for Spider-Shape also didn't change when reaching lvl 15 either.

Spoiler: combat log vs deer • show
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/774087221673328660/989905148228812820/unknown.png

Spoiler: combat log vs zombies • show
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/774087221673328660/989906822418817055/unknown.png)
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Favee on June 24, 2022, 11:13:50 AM
Invocation: Spider-Shape - does not appear to polymorph into correct size or creature. Indication was when using Improved Knockdown on various creatures. Attack bonus at lvl 15 Warlock (Spider-Shape should transform into Huge Size, with Imp knockdown adding another +4 to size category) is only showing as +12 against the deer around Vallaki. Test characters highest attack bonus is +18. I'm uncertain what size deer are, but even if they are large then it should still show as having 2 size categories higher with Huge size creature & imp knockdown, with the attack perhaps then being at +22.

Also attempted in the crypts against skeletons. AB was at +7 (with expertise on) so would be capping still at the +12. Visual for Spider-Shape also didn't change when reaching lvl 15 either.

Spoiler: combat log vs deer • show
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/774087221673328660/989905148228812820/unknown.png

Spoiler: combat log vs zombies • show
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/774087221673328660/989906822418817055/unknown.png)


Improved knockdown and size difference do not affect Attack Bonus, it affects the discipline check DC to avoid being knocked prone. (https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Knockdown)

Disarm does however gain bonus attack against smaller sizes.  So a greatsword would get more Attack bonus to disarm a tiny weapon like a dagger.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Last Exit to Barovia on June 24, 2022, 12:31:46 PM
There is still an issue with the AB that the Imp Knockdown attack is being made at, I think. With an AB of +18, it should be made at +14 then with the -4 from the attack, not +12. Am I missing something else here? I edited my OP for this potential bug to reflect Favee's correction.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: inkcorvid on June 24, 2022, 12:58:44 PM
There is still an issue with the AB that the Imp Knockdown attack is being made at, I think. With an AB of +18, it should be made at +14 then with the -4 from the attack, not +12. Am I missing something else here?

A size modifier (https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Size_modifier) might be coming into play, since - for whatever arcane reason - they aren't listed on your character sheet.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Last Exit to Barovia on June 24, 2022, 01:00:11 PM
Yeah. Either way it doesn't really add up. At lvl 15 the spider should be Huge.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on June 24, 2022, 10:11:55 PM
Enervating Shadows: Triggers the Fort save against friendly some friendly NPC when cast in their proximity.
Tested this in the temple in the outskirts next to the priestess. Only Horatio was forced to make the saving throw, making them all hostile. Returned to test it again with same result.

I'll fix that, thanks.

Quote
Scalding Blast appears to cause doors to close if they are within it's blast area. Could be part of the knockdown script. Tested this in the ML crypts. Triggered on every cast.

I checked and it's intentional. The same happens with Gust of Wind and Boreal Wind. I'll clarify the spell descriptions though.

Quote
Invocation: Spider-Shape - does not appear to polymorph into correct size or creature. Indication was when using Improved Knockdown on various creatures. Attack bonus at lvl 15 Warlock (Spider-Shape should transform into Huge Size, with Imp knockdown adding another +4 to size category) is only showing as +12 against the deer around Vallaki. Test characters highest attack bonus is +18. I'm uncertain what size deer are, but even if they are large then it should still show as having 2 size categories higher with Huge size creature & imp knockdown, with the attack perhaps then being at +22.

The log you've posted seems to confirm it's a Huge spider. You get a -2AB vs the deer because of the huge size, so rather than 14, it's 12 AB. That being said, it looks like the model doesn't reflect the spider's actual shape. I'll look into that.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Iolantir on July 02, 2022, 05:45:29 PM
With the recent update, Eldritch Chain appears to be fixed!
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Dardonas on July 02, 2022, 08:34:28 PM
Thieves' Bane still has issues.

Casting it on doors with a specific key required locks the door.  You cannot pick it.  You cannot bash it.  This is problematic in places where there is no key often given, such as the Sanctuary of the Coming Dawn.

Spoiler: show
(https://i.gyazo.com/0567e6eade92c6231992b4688aff02b9.png)
(https://i.gyazo.com/aadb070e33e7d2c492f32ce9e1782be5.png)

This is the result from trying to pick the Thieves' Bane


Casting it on doors that already have their own specific bash check will use that bash DC.  I.E. the Western Outskirts gate is DC 28, even when the DC for Thieves' Bane should be DC 30 for a level 20 warlock.

Spoiler: show
(https://i.gyazo.com/f2d9943f8b0c66a095e1e43345c41b64.png)


Warlocks cannot dispel their own Thieves' Bane.  Spells like Voracious Dispelling do not meet the dispel check so a Warlock can effectively soft-lock themselves into an area. 

As fun as a flavor spell as it seems, it also has a ton of griefing potential I am worried about in its current state.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Dardonas on July 02, 2022, 08:38:51 PM
You can Thieves' Bane the bounty board in Vallaki and then can no longer access it.  There is no bash option and it requires a key to "open," so it has the issue above where it's "plot locked."

(https://i.gyazo.com/6f6cbc33491ca8c85c0706de4124d509.png)

Edit: You can lock the Well in Vallaki as well.

(https://i.gyazo.com/60eae9c07f240bdc29caa649203ae501.png)

Fortunately it has a bash DC.


Edit 2:

Warlocks can force an NCE by locking the Mist Wall gates in Barovia:

(https://i.gyazo.com/877aeaaf718e729c79137020dfebc761.jpg)
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on July 02, 2022, 10:24:39 PM
I'll fix those issues.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Dardonas on July 05, 2022, 03:17:23 AM
For some reason, Word of Changing does not seem to be correctly turning enemies into the the shape.  I tested this againsts rats in the Vallaki Sewers using Word of Changing (Tortoise).

(https://i.gyazo.com/5348cecd08e279c33ab49257a3d1ca87.png)

Additionally, Ennervating shadows is still having an incorrect tooltip for subsequent checks.  I'm not sure if the drain effect is correctly working or not for that DC, however.

(https://i.gyazo.com/1e91aa4d0a5663be9d717e4b3067a7cc.png)
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Dardonas on July 05, 2022, 10:21:29 PM
Aura of Flame does not last for 24 hours like the tooltip suggests.  I'm not sure what its actual time is, but it seems to go away shortly after leaving combat.

(https://i.gyazo.com/0b98d990d8d5a4ca4222a007802e3144.png)

In addition, the only VFX that Aura of Flame gets is a orange glow similar to a ring of resistance.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Dardonas on July 06, 2022, 02:56:50 AM
Thieves' Bane has a 0 DC for the reflex save when dispelling a door/object locked by it.  Additionally, there is no DC for when I get hit by my own Thieves' Bane AoE.

Also, empowered Thieves' Bane does not seem to work on the damage or at all.

(https://i.gyazo.com/25202cad70631325550acdeffc473bc1.png)
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on July 06, 2022, 05:25:02 PM
Aura of Flame does not last for 24 hours like the tooltip suggests.  I'm not sure what its actual time is, but it seems to go away shortly after leaving combat.

(https://i.gyazo.com/0b98d990d8d5a4ca4222a007802e3144.png)

In addition, the only VFX that Aura of Flame gets is a orange glow similar to a ring of resistance.

For some reason, Word of Changing does not seem to be correctly turning enemies into the the shape.  I tested this againsts rats in the Vallaki Sewers using Word of Changing (Tortoise).

Additionally, Ennervating shadows is still having an incorrect tooltip for subsequent checks.  I'm not sure if the drain effect is correctly working or not for that DC, however.

I'll fix these. Thanks for the reports!

Quote
Thieves' Bane has a 0 DC for the reflex save when dispelling a door/object locked by it.  Additionally, there is no DC for when I get hit by my own Thieves' Bane AoE.

Also, empowered Thieves' Bane does not seem to work on the damage or at all.

I've found the cause but could you test if metamagics work when unlocking the door? Also, does Maximize Magic work at all (might not be available because of spell levels though).
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Dardonas on July 06, 2022, 06:14:16 PM
The Empower Spell metamagic issue with Thieves' Bane causing the door to be un-unlockable seems to have been fixed. 

Maximize spell only works on Eldritch Blast, it's too high for the other abilities.

As for the other metamagics (extend spell, still spell, silent spell) I haven't tested those at all, but I'll do so later on today.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on July 07, 2022, 12:45:12 PM
I've loaded a fix for these problems on the test server; also I've implemented a custom function to make Spell Mantles/Globes of Invulnerability work based off the "equivalent spell level" rather than the actual spell level. It would be good to test that as well, make sure it works, and doesn't cause crashes, etc.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: transcend on July 07, 2022, 01:51:33 PM
Not sure if it's because of my test pak being the second to last, but the late game form of Spider Form does not come with a sprite, detaches your POV and causes a loading crash upon transition
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on July 07, 2022, 02:06:59 PM
Not sure if it's because of my test pak being the second to last, but the late game form of Spider Form does not come with a sprite, detaches your POV and causes a loading crash upon transition

Yeah, you need the latest version of the hak for that model to work.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: McNastea on July 10, 2022, 11:38:34 PM
Don't know if this is intentional or not but the physical damage from Chilling Tentacles bypasses Enervating Shadow.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Maffa on July 21, 2022, 03:29:25 PM
I need some advice regarding how the public perception and acceptance of warlocks is.

I see people publicly spamming eldritch blast in barovia in front of people that really dont care much. Anyone with enough spellcraft will recognise the spell for what it is and then correctly frame the warkock for what they are: people that have received their powers from fiends and alike.

... or is it even publicly known? What is the consensus about this? despite barovia being superstitious about arcane magic, this is power from fiend patrons  we talk about...
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: JustMonika on July 21, 2022, 03:37:39 PM
I should imagine each PC is free to decide their own reactions, and the reaction from NPCs will range from 'Poor' to 'Very bad.'
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: inkcorvid on July 21, 2022, 03:39:16 PM
I need some advice regarding how the public perception and acceptance of warlocks is.

I see people publicly spamming eldritch blast in barovia in front of people that really dont care much. Anyone with enough spellcraft will recognise the spell for what it is and then correctly frame the warkock for what they are: people that have received their powers from fiends and alike.

... or is it even publicly known? What is the consensus about this? despite barovia being superstitious about arcane magic, this is power from fiend patrons  we talk about...

Not all warlocks are fiend warlocks, and not all warlocks even necessarily signed a pact themselves. There are fey warlocks, elemental warlocks, and maybe implicitly dragon warlocks given the origin of some of the invocations. Heck, celestial warlocks exist: your eldritch blast could be derived from angelic, heavenly power. The assumption that eldritch blast equals fiendish powers isn't necessarily true. However, most people in Ravenloft would go a step further: the fact that you're casting magic at all means you're definitely corrupt and evil and trucking with fiends. If you see someone casting Mage Armour, you the player can look up the spell on the wiki and read "ah, okay, that might be a Beguiler, a Wizard, a Sorcerer, a Hexblade, a Bard, a Voodan or a Cleric with Magic domain", but most people would instead think "ah, okay, that's a chaotic evil satanic cultist who has sold their soul to demons for unholy twisted power"

Although we the players might have read the sourcebooks, the characters haven't. It's always a little bit cheesy to me whenever someone points out "hey, that guy just cast Hound of Doom, that means he's a Hexblade, and can curse people" or "since she cast Aura of Glory, that means she's a Paladin, and cannot lie".
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Maffa on July 21, 2022, 03:45:10 PM
I was wondering about those that pass a spellcraft or Lore check...

Also i wonder how it works, lorewise... a pg born in ravenloft could have knowledge of what a celestial or fey is? there is nothing of the such within the mists. they would equal warlock = fiend patron, because they are around
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: inkcorvid on July 21, 2022, 04:10:10 PM
I was wondering about those that pass a spellcraft or Lore check...

Also i wonder how it works, lorewise... a pg born in ravenloft could have knowledge of what a celestial or fey is? there is nothing of the such within the mists. they would equal warlock = fiend patron, because they are around

Outside of DM events, lore and spellcraft checks are unenforcable. What's the DC for a Lore check to know about the Dark Powers? What's the DC for a Lore check to know that Paladins should not lie? What's the DC to know that alignment is an objective property of the universe? What's the DC for a Lore check to know what a Pale Master is, and that at Level 10 they become immune to critical hits? What's the DC for a Lore check to know that Clerics have two clerical domains each? What's the DC for a Lore check to know that Hallowed Witches have the Weave Protection class feature that confers spell resistance?

You get to decide how you react, but consider: most Ravenloft natives would know what a fey is (and fear them) because they're plentiful across numerous domains. They'd probably be more familiar with fey than fiends, who are more of a bogeyman than something anyone knows anything about. But to most Ravenloft natives, all spellcasters are fiendish, because magic is wicked in nature. If you see someone casting magic, it's because they're evil.

In a more educated domain, like Dementlieu, they already make the distinction between learned arcane scientists (good) and unnatural sorcerers (bad).

You can absolutely have a grudge against warlocks. You can believe what you like about any class. But consider reacting the way you'd react to a warlock to all spellcasters - hexblades and sorcerers especially - because that's what Ravenloft natives typically believe. Or instead, consider learning about them IC. "That's an interesting spell. How did you do that?" Your character hasn't read the sourcebooks, and so probably doesn't know the precise ins and outs of how each and every class works. And if they do, they're a cutting edge scholar, and might want to consider submitting a thesis on the topic to the Society of the Erudite.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Maffa on July 21, 2022, 04:17:53 PM
I was wondering about those that pass a spellcraft or Lore check...

Also i wonder how it works, lorewise... a pg born in ravenloft could have knowledge of what a celestial or fey is? there is nothing of the such within the mists. they would equal warlock = fiend patron, because they are around

Outside of DM events, lore and spellcraft checks are unenforcable. What's the DC for a Lore check to know about the Dark Powers? What's the DC for a Lore check to know that Paladins should not lie? What's the DC to know that alignment is an objective property of the universe? What's the DC for a Lore check to know what a Pale Master is, and that at Level 10 they become immune to critical hits? What's the DC for a Lore check to know that Clerics have two clerical domains each? What's the DC for a Lore check to know that Hallowed Witches have the Weave Protection class feature that confers spell resistance?

You get to decide how you react, but consider: most Ravenloft natives would know what a fey is (and fear them) because they're plentiful across numerous domains. They'd probably be more familiar with fey than fiends, who are more of a bogeyman than something anyone knows anything about. But to most Ravenloft natives, all spellcasters are fiendish, because magic is wicked in nature. If you see someone casting magic, it's because they're evil.

In a more educated domain, like Dementlieu, they already make the distinction between learned arcane scientists (good) and unnatural sorcerers (bad).

You can absolutely have a grudge against warlocks. You can believe what you like about any class. But consider reacting the way you'd react to a warlock to all spellcasters - hexblades and sorcerers especially - because that's what Ravenloft natives typically believe. Or instead, consider learning about them IC. "That's an interesting spell. How did you do that?" Your character hasn't read the sourcebooks, and so probably doesn't know the precise ins and outs of how each and every class works. And if they do, they're a cutting edge scholar, and might want to consider submitting a thesis on the topic to the Society of the Erudite.

makes sense, thanks!
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: inkcorvid on July 21, 2022, 04:45:04 PM
It's also perhaps more informative to consider what a specific culture or faith believes.

In Barovian culture, all magic is bad. It's all demons. It's twisting your children into caliban. No distinction between warlocks and wizards and druids. Burn the witch at the stake.

In Borcan culture, arcane magic is the fruit of the diabolic match. Again, there's no distinction: all wizards are warlocks. They all get their powers from a deal with a devil. The Church makes a big frowny face. While it's not necessarily evil, it's hella suspicious, and generally believed that the devils will probably get the better of you in the end.

Back when I was with the Vallaki Ezrites, it was broadly accepted dogma that magic comes from either Ezra, or the Mists of Death - and therefore probably from fiendish or unholy sources. Clerics of gods other than Ezra are probably conduits for the power of a demon, so for example, it's spiritually unhealthy to be healed or raised by Lizuca. If you let a random Outskirts cleric cast on you, consider mentioning that in confession and receiving penance for it. It was also cited that that magic is known to twist the unborn into caliban ... so how can it be anything other than unholy and tainted?

My own Ezrite, of Her Third Revelation, and a wizard, had a different and more scientific outlook. Nevertheless, she was strongly encouraged to swear off magic for good. Because by casting it, you're making a pact with fiendish powers, and thereby tainting your soul. After all, Her First Revelation is the Borcan church. After an enormous amount of really amazing RP and self-doubt, she moved to Dementlieu, where magic is considered both trifling entertainment and a crusty academic discipline. It's not satan, it's nerd stuff. But she was also told IC that the Dementlieuse See had to remain in step with Borca, and so couldn't just outright say that wizards are fine. Just keep a low profile.

The Faith of the Lawgiver has a similar outlook: either you're a cleric of the Lawgiver whose powers flow from his divine command, or you're channeling the great adversary Mytteri and going to the Hell of Slaves when you die for spitting in god's eye. Just like the Ezrites above, faithful of the Lawgiver are strongly discouraged from letting non-Lawgiver clerics cast on them. Though in Hazlan, there's an awkward theological tension between that and the fact that both the native culture and the righteous tyrant Hazlik seem to think magic is good actually, because magic is awesome power and might makes right. And that justification, if not the conclusion, is something the Lawgiver can get behind. The dissonance inherent in the situation can give rise to interesting RP.

Consider how all of the above might react to a warlock, both in the sense of how the most surface-level features would appear, and what they would think if they were presented with the sourcebook entry. Each Gazetteer entry has a section about what, exactly each domain thinks about magic. But the archetype of the warlock - as a dabbler who sold his soul for power - is an enduring cultural force in the Land of Mists.

EDIT:

tldr; this isn't so much "don't persecute the poor innocent warlocks" as " ... and throw the wizards on the pyre too while you're at it"
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: zDark Shadowz on July 21, 2022, 06:20:04 PM
Warlock is almost the personification of the natives' beliefs, when their misconceptions about magic are actually right. They fit right in like a glove.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: pastafeets on July 23, 2022, 06:48:29 PM
Found a thing maybe!

The damage reduction feats don't seem to apply while polymorphed, while bards can sing and turn feats still work.

Unless bardsong makes other polymorphed things magic weapons...
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Vissy on July 24, 2022, 02:11:52 AM
The damage reduction doesn't seem to be working at all, from what I have observed (at least not the first level of damage reduction Warlocks get).
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on July 26, 2022, 09:39:59 PM
The damage reduction doesn't seem to be working at all, from what I have observed (at least not the first level of damage reduction Warlocks get).

It should now be fixed.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Vissy on July 30, 2022, 08:39:57 AM
Magic insight is bugged.

(https://i.gyazo.com/a79959d6e8e576dd4d45b07c6d4dba8a.png)
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Voclain on August 31, 2022, 06:09:08 PM
So far I've noticed that eldritch blast shapes and essences are their own spells rather than true modifiers for eldritch blast.

In PNP I'm used to you being able to take both an eldritch blast shape and an essence and have them affect your eldritch blast at the same time. To quote Complete Arcane (p9):

Quote
A warlock can apply an eldritch essence invocation and a blast shape invocation (see below) to the same blast. When a warlock uses both kinds of invocations to alter an eldritch blast, the spell level equivalent is equal to the spell level of the eldritch blast, the level of the eldritch essence invocation, or the level of the blast shape invocation, whichever is higher.

For example, activating a sickening blast invocation (essence) and an eldritch chain invocation (shape) would allow you to chain sickening blast to 2+ targets. Activating a sickening blast invocation (essence) and then a beshadowed blast invocation (essence) would then result in you only having beshadowed blast activated.

I was wondering if this was purely a design choice, but the spells don't seem to be balanced for the loss of either a shape or an essence.

My question is then: will this be looked at? I believe that by turning these specific invocations into toggle abilities that modify the cantrip eldritch blast rather than spells in their own right would solve the problem. Or maybe a self-buff that changes eldritch blast to work in that manner?

This would also help warlocks find further use for the maximize magic feat while retaining build versatility.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on August 31, 2022, 07:28:06 PM
We’ve implemented them this way on purpose.

edit: To further clarify, there are aspects that counterbalance this, such as Haste affecting Invocations, metamagics affecting Eldritch Blast, metamagics having no daily limit, all things that don't work in PnP for warlocks.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Voclain on August 31, 2022, 08:20:05 PM
Then I'll leave my feedback that given the few invocations you can acquire, the majority of essences are too costly to keep once you can cast shapes.

You might also be able to invalidate the use of maximize by moving eldritch blast up to circle 1.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on August 31, 2022, 10:07:38 PM
Then I'll leave my feedback that given the few invocations you can acquire, the majority of essences are too costly to keep once you can cast shapes.

You might also be able to invalidate the use of maximize by moving eldritch blast up to circle 1.

Maximize Spell support (and other metamagics) is intentional rather than accidental as a balance mechanism.

As for specific invocations balance, there's merit to that, though the class is only still a few months old. Though if they're only good at lower levels and get replaced later on that's not so bad since they see use for a while, then don't. It's bound to happen with a class that has a total of 12 invocations.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: pastafeets on September 04, 2022, 12:14:09 AM
So Voracious Dispelling temporary HP seems to stack.  I was able to push my HP from 88 to nearly 300.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: pastafeets on September 04, 2022, 12:40:54 PM
Also I've been trying to figure out how to articulate my thoughts on this issue I'm feeling.  Basically, warlock is amazing in low levels but really starts running out of steam.

Similarly leveled casters have like, +6-7 higher spell DCs than we do.  So while we can semi-reliably pummel with blasts, all of our tricky spells are basically useless.  Even with greater invocation focus and a high charisma, my greater invocation DCs are between 17-24 that I've tested.  That's like jumping over a line of tape on the sidewalk.

I'm also finding a lot of invocations just have no ulitity whatsoever.  The hellcat one, for instance, lessens a warlock's power rather than enhancing it.  The cat shape is so cool!  But there's no situation where its weak abilities would help (as far as I can tell).  The spider form was the same (though I'm told at level 15 it can be good?)

I'm just finding myself terribly underwhelmed with what I can do, or what I bring to a situation.  The spamability of the invocations stop mattering once you get to like, level 8.  I've never run into a situation where there isn't plenty of rest opportunities before it taxes anyone. 

Sorry if this is rambling. I just thought I'd muse some thoughts. I love this class but I feel its slate of powers is really underwhelming.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: zDark Shadowz on September 04, 2022, 06:59:46 PM
Is this due to lack of Spell Focus? Should warlocks get Ability Focus - Invocation or something similar to source to boost their DCs instead?

https://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/monster-manual-v--78/ability-focus--14/index.html

Referenced here;
https://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/warlock/index.html

"Since spell-like abilities are not actually spells, a warlock cannot benefit from the Spell Focus feat. He can, however, benefit from the Ability Focus feat (see page 303 of the Monster Manual)"
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Voclain on September 04, 2022, 07:12:09 PM
Is this due to lack of Spell Focus? Do warlocks get Ability Focus - Invocation or something similar to source to boost their DCs instead?

https://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/monster-manual-v--78/ability-focus--14/index.html

Warlocks get 2 feats that increase invocation DCs, it's just that the base DC value is sort of low so it often doesn't matter.

I also think the shapeshifts are a complete trap that exist primarily for RP purposes, but that's just me. You might get some use out of hellcat if you want to be a pack mule.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: pastafeets on September 04, 2022, 09:21:09 PM
Is this due to lack of Spell Focus? Do warlocks get Ability Focus - Invocation or something similar to source to boost their DCs instead?

https://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/monster-manual-v--78/ability-focus--14/index.html

Warlocks get 2 feats that increase invocation DCs, it's just that the base DC value is sort of low so it often doesn't matter.

I also think the shapeshifts are a complete trap that exist primarily for RP purposes, but that's just me. You might get some use out of hellcat if you want to be a pack mule.

But they aren't useful for RP.  They don't do anything except get you killed by everyone who hates evil things or magic in general.  It serves no use.  There is no situation where spiderform or cat form would do anything for anyone without serious contrivances.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: inkcorvid on September 04, 2022, 09:22:47 PM
Is this due to lack of Spell Focus? Do warlocks get Ability Focus - Invocation or something similar to source to boost their DCs instead?

https://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/monster-manual-v--78/ability-focus--14/index.html

Warlocks get 2 feats that increase invocation DCs, it's just that the base DC value is sort of low so it often doesn't matter.

I also think the shapeshifts are a complete trap that exist primarily for RP purposes, but that's just me. You might get some use out of hellcat if you want to be a pack mule.

But they aren't useful for RP.  They don't do anything except get you killed by everyone who hates evil things or magic in general.  It serves no use.  There is no situation where spiderform or cat form would do anything for anyone without serious contrivances.

That spider is iirc huge (think of the bonus to knockdown attempts) with DC 36 poison.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: pastafeets on September 04, 2022, 09:24:05 PM
Is this due to lack of Spell Focus? Should warlocks get Ability Focus - Invocation or something similar to source to boost their DCs instead?

https://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/monster-manual-v--78/ability-focus--14/index.html

Referenced here;
https://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/warlock/index.html

"Since spell-like abilities are not actually spells, a warlock cannot benefit from the Spell Focus feat. He can, however, benefit from the Ability Focus feat (see page 303 of the Monster Manual)"

Without anyway to buff ourselves, the inherent low level of warlock DCs, and the abundance of really good save gear and monsters with high saves, most are useless after low levels.

Everything has really high SR too.  Unlimited eldritch chains don't matter if you can't break the SR.  (and that's with regular and greater spell penetration)  And SR is fine, but it very well nullifies what we can do (as the other casters are at least bringing buffs to the table) without sacrificing a very rare invocation slot for the SR busting blast.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: pastafeets on September 04, 2022, 09:40:39 PM
I realize that I'm offering critique without offering suggestions and that isn't helpful.

What I'm finding is that most of my potential abilities looks great on paper but when I have them in the game they aren't useful. 

Spamming sounds insanely strong but in reality once you're in the mid-levels you won't have an opportunity to seriously spam your blasts.

A lot of the utility invocations have so many drawbacks they just aren't something feasable - I noticed that at the level 3 invocations.  The fire aura shoots light off - that's not helpful.  The shadow aura gives 100 percent concealment:  Cool.  But when my friends walk up to me it saps their strength.  and it only lasts 5 rounds.  And it doesn't work in the light so if I get jumped on the road during daytime, my only real defensive ability is useless.   The fire wall is really strong.  But it's as dangerous to friendlies as foes (though with planning that can be somewhat mitigated)

I have regularly @relevel-ed each level for awhile now to test out each invocations and I'm seriously finding it hard to settle because I have to decide which one hurts me the least when I use it. (Eldritch chain though, is good.  No notes)

Most warlock invocations are so niche they won't come up all the time, and I think that's the issue.  I think the class needs the utility and toolbox invocations increased in usefulness in more situations.  We only have 3 per level - when an invovation has such a narrow and niche use it seriously hurts our ability to impact any scene that requires a use of power.

It's just such a bummer to read all these powers that SOUND cool but when you get in-world and use them they turn out to be a waste of a valuable and rare invocation slot.  We only get 3 each level.  Losing one that is useless in adventuring and next-to-useless in RP is such a bummer and disappointment.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: pastafeets on September 04, 2022, 09:41:43 PM
Is this due to lack of Spell Focus? Should warlocks get Ability Focus - Invocation or something similar to source to boost their DCs instead?

https://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/monster-manual-v--78/ability-focus--14/index.html

Referenced here;
https://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/warlock/index.html

"Since spell-like abilities are not actually spells, a warlock cannot benefit from the Spell Focus feat. He can, however, benefit from the Ability Focus feat (see page 303 of the Monster Manual)"

Without anyway to buff ourselves, the inherent low level of warlock DCs, and the abundance of really good save gear and monsters with high saves, most are useless after low levels.

Everything has really high SR too.  Unlimited eldritch chains don't matter if you can't break the SR.  (and that's with regular and greater spell penetration)

I was told by someone else that the spider can be useful at level 15.  It's really sad an invocation you can get at like level 6 needs to wait unfil 15 to be useful.  And I tested it at the lower levels - it was useless as I have no way to buff myself, and if I have a group I'm more effective just blasting.   Though most things are immune to poison so I don't really call that useful.  And you've got no invocations that makes doing melee actually viable so you're really more of a threat to yourself doing it.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: pastafeets on September 09, 2022, 03:41:06 PM
One more thing to consider!  Spammability isn't a terrible bonus if you get spell failure from constant casting exhaustion.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Steel on October 10, 2022, 05:27:44 PM
Magic insight is bugged.

(https://i.gyazo.com/a79959d6e8e576dd4d45b07c6d4dba8a.png)
This seems like it’s still bugged. I had taken it and couldn’t get the spell to work at all.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Ghost Love Score on November 09, 2022, 03:42:27 PM
Okay so the Invocations Otherwordly Whispers and Draconic Knowledge are both lvl 1 Invocations, and they both practically do the exact same thing. Only that Draconic Knowledge straight up gives more value. Is there a design decision for this or what? I don't see why I would ever wanna pick Otherwordly Whispers over Draconic Knowledge unless I would wanna pick both and stack the buffs (if that is even possible).

Spells:
Spoiler: show
https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Otherworldly_Whispers
https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Draconic_Knowledge
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: inkcorvid on November 09, 2022, 03:55:47 PM
This is absolutely true (and you can stack them). Though it does feel like Otherworldly Whispers is almost the more common pick, because RP flavour. Draconic Knowledge is basically purely mechanical. But Otherworldly Whispers gives you permission to have voices whispering in your head, and is a bigger hook during DM events.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: EO on November 10, 2022, 08:49:16 PM
They're indeed somewhat redundant but they stack so we can keep both.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: bloodless on December 12, 2022, 10:04:18 AM
I can't confirm but it doesn't seem like the warlock invocations or eldritch blast raise OCR, even when cast in plain sight of NPCs.
Title: Re: New Base Class - Warlock
Post by: Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex on December 12, 2022, 10:26:11 AM
I can't confirm but it doesn't seem like the warlock invocations or eldritch blast raise OCR, even when cast in plain sight of NPCs.

I'd test to confirm, but then I'd have to chase down a DM for an OCR rollback.