Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: DM Erebus on May 13, 2022, 07:49:35 AM

Title: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: DM Erebus on May 13, 2022, 07:49:35 AM
Please use this thread for the new PaL dungeon feedback. Bugs, typos, glitches, balance, loot - the lot.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: RedMoney on May 13, 2022, 05:59:24 PM
Spoiler: show
Ran this dungeon with 20 people, was good fun.  Cramped spaces made it hard to maneuver a large group, which I thought was a good touch.  Good source of a thing that's been causing grief for the entire server population so A++ for that.  Lots of secret doors and environmental obstacles were a plus.  A nice loop dungeon to discourage dungeon logging with good monster variety highlighting a more rarely seen monster template.  Would love to see the thieving harlots in other areas upgraded to some slightly weaker versions of the daughters.  Overall great dungeon, well thought out and well crafted with the toolkit.


*Hard to talk about balance in that situation
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: Madame Trousers Son on May 13, 2022, 06:02:21 PM
Some of the lock DCs were incredibly high. Are keys supposed to drop? It could have been lost in the chaos but we didn't find any.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: apeppertoo on May 13, 2022, 06:07:43 PM
Spoiler: show
If you try to backtrack, the door leading downstairs is not possible to access - and that's on a slightly smaller than default female human.

The will saves to avoid fear ignore mind blank, which is pretty punishing for ASF that lasts a few minutes.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: Zyemeth on May 13, 2022, 10:07:39 PM
Spoiler: show
New dungeon is pretty interesting story and theme wise. Maybe suggest that not every spider drops lootable silk bags? It makes navigation tricky when clicking. Could do like five silk glands dropping from the stronger spiders or something. (Like the Black Shiny Spider) instead of every translucent spider. Also I got shoved through the wall by the last door when someone opened the final gate for the safes at the end (which ported me to the entryway to the dungeon) and no one could open the door so I could not cast knock for people to unlock. Search DCs may be a bit too high also. 22 Search had me staring at walls for multiple minutes to reveal doors. The final lock DC was quite high for pretty low tier drops as well.

As stated above, the way back downstairs is too small for models to fit into to reach the transition and since I cannot find the door forward it forced me to escape via DLogging. Elf model here.

Final comment being that the "fear" effect will DC is a bit high. For any non Will primary char, it's still pretty high with fully enchanted saves to make. As previously stated, giving ASF from it is really rough for a DC that high.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: InMyDarkestHours on May 13, 2022, 11:06:41 PM
Great dungeon, had fun working it out. Couple of things, though bear in mind I was informed it wasn't considered "max spawn":

Spoiler: show
  • Indeed remove the translucent (or other small) spiders from dropping bags (glands/poison), perhaps add more of it to the Ettercaps or have cocoons
  • Lock DC for final safe is very high, for loot that appeared to be average like other cabinets. May wish to lower it a tad.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: apeppertoo on May 13, 2022, 11:34:53 PM
Quote from: Zyemeth on May 13, 2022, 10:07:39 PM
Spoiler: show
Final comment being that the "fear" effect will DC is a bit high. For any non Will primary char, it's still pretty high with fully enchanted saves to make. As previously stated, giving ASF from it is really rough for a DC that high.


Spoiler: show
To add onto this. My character is a level 19 primary will save class with 10 wis. I failed every will save for this effect. I would agree that the DC is pretty high.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: DM Erebus on May 14, 2022, 03:03:37 AM
I will:

- Shave a couple numbers off Lock and Search DCs across the board. The safe in the office does have a key, but you'll have to look for that elsewhere. That's why it's OL is so high. I might also drop a hint somewhere in the dungeon that a safe combination exists.

- Move the transition down to the top of the stairs, that'll make it easier to use.

- Either rebalance the effects or lower the DC of the horror checks, maybe both. 20% ASF might be a bit high, maybe 15% would be better. I'll pobably bump the AB penalty up as well.

- Have a think about the spider silk situation. There's no easy way to make the components occasionally drop. I did consider filling the place with spider silk resource nodes instead of having the spiders drop it. That would result in a net reduction of silk resource, but would make the running of the dungeon smoother (if poison was removed as a drop too). A combination of placeable nodes and more silk on the ettercaps may be ideal.

- Have a think about making the closing of the dungeon loop clearer, probably by dropping the DC of the final secret door (to exit) trivial.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: apeppertoo on May 14, 2022, 10:55:55 AM
Quote from: CosmicRay on May 14, 2022, 03:03:37 AM
- Have a think about the spider silk situation. There's no easy way to make the components occasionally drop. I did consider filling the place with spider silk resource nodes instead of having the spiders drop it. That would result in a net reduction of silk resource, but would make the running of the dungeon smoother (if poison was removed as a drop too). A combination of placeable nodes and more silk on the ettercaps may be ideal.

As someone who needs the resources, I'd prefer the situation be left as-is than anything that would result in a reduction of gains. In my experience the thing hurting navigation was other players, not spider corpses.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: Day Old Bread on May 14, 2022, 01:11:52 PM
Quote from: apeppertoo on May 14, 2022, 10:55:55 AM
Quote from: CosmicRay on May 14, 2022, 03:03:37 AM
- Have a think about the spider silk situation. There's no easy way to make the components occasionally drop. I did consider filling the place with spider silk resource nodes instead of having the spiders drop it. That would result in a net reduction of silk resource, but would make the running of the dungeon smoother (if poison was removed as a drop too). A combination of placeable nodes and more silk on the ettercaps may be ideal.

As someone who needs the resources, I'd prefer the situation be left as-is than anything that would result in a reduction of gains. In my experience the thing hurting navigation was other players, not spider corpses.

+1

Resources for tailoring are already a bit more difficult to come by.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: Ryujin on May 15, 2022, 09:19:58 AM
After running the dungeon I can say it's a great dungeon. Only a few things.

1. Some of the locks are -really- hard. Especially the safe one. (Though I hear there's a key or combination around somewhere)
2. The loot in the cabinets and dungeon itself felt... Meh. It seemed a bit disproportionate to the challenge.

Overall the dungeon was great, and it was fun to run however!
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: Evendur on May 15, 2022, 09:22:46 AM
Very interesting and atmospheric dungeon, well done.

A few things to note:
Spoiler: show

We made it through with a rather large group of mid-high to high lvl characters and Im still not sure for what lvl range the place is designed (which can be a good thing)

The large number of small spiders makes things quite difficult at times, it's almost impossible to click on them to attack when a (single) group member is already in melee with them.
At the same time they add to the atmosphere, therefore they are good to have there.
Perhaps a solution would be to add a few larger ones as well. As mentioned I don't know the intended lvl range for the dungeon but I was thinking void spiders would add to the horror quite a bit (after all, we are here to make our characters suffer :))
Void Spiders would also fit perfectly into the place in my opinion. I was half expecting to have some jump me while going through those shadowy places.

The xp seemed to say that everyone up to lvl 20 was welcome there. Depending on the intended lvl, this should probably be adapted as well, either by making it more difficult or by capping xp for lvl >15

The crafting drops will mean that this place will soon be farmed to oblivion. If the place should provide those drops, perhaps it would be better to have a special kind of spider (possible a large one) that drops it instead of the small ones, as it did not help to have literally hundreds of bags on the ground when navigating.

The traps there do not require a (professional) tapper, which means this place will soon be soloed by single wizards, while nobody will want to take a trapper to this place, as its already cramped. The traps also did not seem to pose enough danger to make everyone wait for their removal. I think for the port area, most characters will be able to just take them on with high saves and wards.

The enemy casters did not get too much action as they were usually appearing right in front of the group. Perhaps those could be spawned further away, possibly with additional spiders in between them and the group/spawn trigger point. Maybe have a void spider protect a caster, so that one would have to choose between who to fight first. 
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: Dardonas on May 15, 2022, 07:20:02 PM
Quote from: Evendur on May 15, 2022, 09:22:46 AM
Very interesting and atmospheric dungeon, well done.

A few things to note:
Spoiler: show

We made it through with a rather large group of mid-high to high lvl characters and Im still not sure for what lvl range the place is designed (which can be a good thing)

The large number of small spiders makes things quite difficult at times, it's almost impossible to click on them to attack when a (single) group member is already in melee with them.
At the same time they add to the atmosphere, therefore they are good to have there.
Perhaps a solution would be to add a few larger ones as well. As mentioned I don't know the intended lvl range for the dungeon but I was thinking void spiders would add to the horror quite a bit (after all, we are here to make our characters suffer :))
Void Spiders would also fit perfectly into the place in my opinion. I was half expecting to have some jump me while going through those shadowy places.

The xp seemed to say that everyone up to lvl 20 was welcome there. Depending on the intended lvl, this should probably be adapted as well, either by making it more difficult or by capping xp for lvl >15

The crafting drops will mean that this place will soon be farmed to oblivion. If the place should provide those drops, perhaps it would be better to have a special kind of spider (possible a large one) that drops it instead of the small ones, as it did not help to have literally hundreds of bags on the ground when navigating.

The traps there do not require a (professional) tapper, which means this place will soon be soloed by single wizards, while nobody will want to take a trapper to this place, as its already cramped. The traps also did not seem to pose enough danger to make everyone wait for their removal. I think for the port area, most characters will be able to just take them on with high saves and wards.

The enemy casters did not get too much action as they were usually appearing right in front of the group. Perhaps those could be spawned further away, possibly with additional spiders in between them and the group/spawn trigger point. Maybe have a void spider protect a caster, so that one would have to choose between who to fight first. 


The traps when I went there were pretty brutal.  I do not see a Wizard/Sorc soloing this place with ease.  Constant slow traps and places where there are fire traps.  As someone who tested it on the test server and also tested it live when it came out, a trapper is 100% required.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: Evendur on May 15, 2022, 07:39:46 PM
Quote from: Dardonas on May 15, 2022, 07:20:02 PM
The traps when I went there were pretty brutal.  I do not see a Wizard/Sorc soloing this place with ease.  Constant slow traps and places where there are fire traps.  As someone who tested it on the test server and also tested it live when it came out, a trapper is 100% required.

I will take another look at the effects when I get a chance. With the large group we had, the traps were often triggered without much consequence from what I could see.
Regarding the trapper requirement, I was referring to the traps DC which is never over 35, therefore anyone with disable traps can deal with those, including wizards.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: BwpsychoName on May 17, 2022, 03:05:49 AM
Spoiler: show
 (https://i.imgur.com/hd3Vzk9.png)


This door is near impossible to transition from upper floor to lower.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: DM Erebus on May 17, 2022, 06:34:40 AM
Quote from: Bwpsycho on May 17, 2022, 03:05:49 AM
Spoiler: show
 (https://i.imgur.com/hd3Vzk9.png)


This door is near impossible to transition from upper floor to lower.

Fix for that is waiting to be rolled-in.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: Knight of Rhodes on May 17, 2022, 07:28:44 AM
Cosmic, this is one of the most aesthetically pleasing dungeons. Love it. 
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: EO on May 26, 2022, 12:36:11 PM
We've implemented fixes for Maison d'Abbatage.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: apeppertoo on May 31, 2022, 04:58:59 PM
Today:

Shoved by the front door into the adjoining alley, behind a plot door. Escaped by turning into a dragon.

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/967806232536698950/981293236058468363/unknown.png)

Took the normal transition to the upstairs, wound up here for no reason. This is not where the upstairs transition is supposed to lead, so I am currently sitting here hoping my group can work their way to me.

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/967806232536698950/981297010168717353/unknown.png)

EDIT: when they got close monsters spawned and killed me.  :roll:
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: gotesu on June 21, 2022, 10:05:20 AM
Lovely dungeon design, thank you very much CR!

One small thing : When going up the stairs from the first floor to the second the area after the transition is very narrow, going through while in WD (large form) caused the character to spawn on the other side of the wall. (perhaps giving more space between the stairs and the wall will solve it).

(https://i.ibb.co/CtTtJnV/Screenshot-2022-06-21-165815.png)

Thank you

Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: DM Erebus on June 21, 2022, 11:34:36 AM
Stair options are pretty limited on that tileset, but I'll at least have a go at moving them to the other corner.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: Evendur on July 06, 2022, 09:22:21 PM
After several runs through the dungeon with different characters and group sizes, I am very impressed how well this dungeon is balanced.

A large group of mid lvl characters will have a good challenge there and even a small group in the high lvl range can easily find death in this place.

The concerns regarding the farming of silk seem to be invalid, possibly because amounts of crafting material as quite extensive.

The only issue that was constantly present was the very small hitbox of the little spiders, especially in combination with the dropped silk.
Perhaps there is a way to increase the hitbox of the little spiders a bit, or have the silk drop in bulk on specific spiders only to make it a bit easier to navigate.

In general the place has a lot to offer and I still havent found all the secrets there
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: Chabxxu on July 28, 2022, 08:35:17 PM
This is at least the second time this happens, but when clicking the door to go up, sometimes you get teleported into the multiverse and you need a DM to unstuck you.

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/657057446413729801/1002373518236864584/unknown.png)
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: Lex Talionis on July 28, 2022, 10:20:22 PM
Everythings fine....
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: myrddraal on July 30, 2022, 02:05:40 PM
I kind of like the high dc locks.  It gives some purpose to a rogue enchanting their LP gear.  Loot usually seems like it has at least 1 semi decent item but could be better.
Title: Re: Maison d’Abbatage - Feedback Thread
Post by: Kamfrenchie on August 06, 2022, 10:45:30 AM
I really didn't like the secret passage on the second floor into the small room. The barred doors also seemed unbreakable ?

It straight up dumped us into a melee with countless enemies without much time to react, and led to me and others being uable to move or see what was happening due to the swarms of spiders blocking movement, even though they are minuscules.