- Updated the bleeding system to better provide a 6 second grace period after first being taken to 0 hit points.
If you're trying to obtain someone's corpse for a bounty, six seconds is a full round of combat for attacks and a spell (or two if hasted). It makes classes like rogues and assassins even more unplayable if you have to stand there for six seconds while people hit you.
If you're trying to obtain someone's corpse for a bounty, six seconds is a full round of combat for attacks and a spell (or two if hasted). It makes classes like rogues and assassins even more unplayable if you have to stand there for six seconds while people hit you.
Counterpoint: Why should you be able to kill someone in full view of a bunch of their friends and get away with their corpse?
True, but... it doesn't sound like it'd be a very common problem, and even if it were, you do have the option of trying to assassinate them when they don't have quite so many friends watching.
Will this have an effect? I've not been downed since this system came into place. Does it prevent you from hitting the unconscious body and killing them? Does it stop you from dealing damage beyond -10 and going straight from someone standing to dead?
Will this have an effect? I've not been downed since this system came into place. Does it prevent you from hitting the unconscious body and killing them? Does it stop you from dealing damage beyond -10 and going straight from someone standing to dead?
In mine and other players' experience, it's been just attacking players who are down and it doing nothing to do them. They take the hits, but they aren't corpsed.
If we know this 6 seconds is a thing, we can be honorable in our PvP.
PCs aren't vacuum cleaners, it kind of makes sense it should take a full round action to pick someone up, in a way that wont lock up the actions of the person doing the retrieving if they have to abandon the attempt.
PCs aren't vacuum cleaners, it kind of makes sense it should take a full round action to pick someone up, in a way that wont lock up the actions of the person doing the retrieving if they have to abandon the attempt.
Sure, but not every PvP situation is intended to be an abduction and just having them immune to having someone whacking them 2-6 times per round with a greataxe and surviving that is also unrealistic.
PCs aren't vacuum cleaners, it kind of makes sense it should take a full round action to pick someone up, in a way that wont lock up the actions of the person doing the retrieving if they have to abandon the attempt.
Sure, but not every PvP situation is intended to be an abduction and just having them immune to having someone whacking them 2-6 times per round with a greataxe and surviving that is also unrealistic.
The fact we have 'HP' and can be shot with an arrow 20 times and have them all sticking out of you but be fine is unrealistic. There are serious problems with applying any degree of realism to NWN even before applying the magic and fantasy setting.
A six second grace period seems fine for a 'cinematic' setting.
PCs aren't vacuum cleaners, it kind of makes sense it should take a full round action to pick someone up, in a way that wont lock up the actions of the person doing the retrieving if they have to abandon the attempt.
Sure, but not every PvP situation is intended to be an abduction and just having them immune to having someone whacking them 2-6 times per round with a greataxe and surviving that is also unrealistic.
The fact we have 'HP' and can be shot with an arrow 20 times and have them all sticking out of you but be fine is unrealistic. There are serious problems with applying any degree of realism to NWN even before applying the magic and fantasy setting.
A six second grace period seems fine for a 'cinematic' setting.
It heavily unbalances PvP in favor of monks with good quivering palm DCs and mages who can badly impair you with a few IGMS's or Horrid Wiltings.
6 seconds before body grab I can handle.
But if you are outnumbered in PvP, the other guy can just keep healing downed ally before you can corpse them.
At the very least there should be a 6 second period before you can heal them, that would make it "fair" when its 2 vs 1.
Even then this change gives even further advantage to the gankers, who are usually outnumbering their target.
Offence is always more powerful than defence in this game, though. Even in a battle where everyone is prepared, healing just can't outdo damage forever, not even with the AC people can reach. Potions and spell slots provoke attacks of opportunity, are not infinite and they can only be used at most twice per round, where attacks are free, can be done more frequently, can critical strike, and are queued automatically. I just don't see a situation where someone keeps getting up as realistic. They are continually blinded by being downed so there's really nothing they can do except run a few feet each time, and it's not like the person healing them is invulnerable anyway.You can throw in two greater restoration scrolls in 6 seconds. They would heal 260 hp and wouldn't even give attack of opportunity.
It would be different if healing and attacks could be done simultaneously, but they can't be, you have a time budget to work against, and whether it's a gank or an even fight, it's generally on the attacker to mess up & on the defender to make all the right decisions just to survive.
If you don't want the ninja ganks where assassin casts darkness and poofs away before people can react, fine, add some timer to the corpse.
It should be slow to move a corpse.
Offence is always more powerful than defence in this game, though. Even in a battle where everyone is prepared, healing just can't outdo damage forever, not even with the AC people can reach. Potions and spell slots provoke attacks of opportunity, are not infinite and they can only be used at most twice per round, where attacks are free, can be done more frequently, can critical strike, and are queued automatically. I just don't see a situation where someone keeps getting up as realistic. They are continually blinded by being downed so there's really nothing they can do except run a few feet each time, and it's not like the person healing them is invulnerable anyway.You can throw in two greater restoration scrolls in 6 seconds. They would heal 260 hp and wouldn't even give attack of opportunity.
It would be different if healing and attacks could be done simultaneously, but they can't be, you have a time budget to work against, and whether it's a gank or an even fight, it's generally on the attacker to mess up & on the defender to make all the right decisions just to survive.
The blinded character can also heal, ethereal jaunt, hide on plain sight or do what ever their thing is.
The point is, you already took that character down. But because they have regeneration or a buddy, you simply can't finish them off and move on to the next target to actually win the fight.
Meanwhile you your self are probably already low on hp at this point and have used your best spells or whatever tricks you have.
Yeah, the advantage is on the attacker(s), so why do you want them have even more of an edge?
Its the attackers who choose when they do it, so under the current circumstances they aren't going to attack you when you are with your friends who can heal you during that 6 seconds. They will get you when you are alone, which is how most PvP already happens.
If you don't want the ninja ganks where assassin casts darkness and poofs away before people can react, fine, add some timer to the corpse.
It should be slow to move a corpse.
My issue is with how fighting multiple opponents has suddenly become even harder.
I assure you that I am not the only person reading this thread and thinking "Right, I can't just kill the target quickly now, I have to be ready to kill all allies and any potential healers".
This is not a good direction for the PvP framework to go in. I'm all for making assassinations more realistic, but this is encouraging all-in. This is a perfect example of the law of unintended consequences.
Like I said before, I don't think there is a framework to PvP.
Scrolls are one per round. Also any scroll as powerful as greater restoration are not common. Two heal potions for 120 hp I can see, but if you use rare items or high circle spells to wake people up in PvP, you're still throwing away the initiative. You can only do so many of these before you run out yourself. Whoever wakes up still has to make concentration checks or not get knockdowned before they get their spells/scrolls/potions off to escape, leaving whoever was protecting them on their own until they can heal and fight for themselves.You can do twice as much with haste. Scrolls don't need concentration checks and spellcaster on defensive casting mode doesn't give attacks of opportunity.
What makes you think the attacker will be low on health and resources if the defending side couldn't keep up? Attacks are queued, actions besides this have to be timed meticulously with another player wailing on you which is pretty difficult to do if you get surprised.
SURE victory? Where? Its the gankers who decide when and where the fight takes place.
I just don't see why anyone should be given a sure victory if they, on their own, run into two or more people who are about equal in strength to them when together, and decide to fight. If you can't pay the opportunity cost, you can probably afford to wait. Players with a gank-happy mindset weren't throwing themselves into crowds of people "to make it fair" as it is. This idea that ejecting another player from the playing field should be quick and easy has always struck me as absurd, and while fairness itself may or may not have a place in PvP balance, I see nothing unfair about a ganker failing to kill someone because people keep healing their victim. I see a ganker that made a silly decision, and I see them doubling down on it, perhaps because they feel entitled to kill someone just because going first typically guarantees success.
I don't think this is making it easier to gank just because people can make bigger gank squads. They were always able to do that, but they didn't because the more people know about PvP, the more likely it is someone betrays or flakes. Also, it's very time consuming to roam the map hunting for your quarry. You can spend hours on the server looking for someone even if you have confirmed they're still online. I am fully behind the notion that attackers will have to put more time and resources into this kind of thing, and risk more of their people in the action.Mostly the gankers outnumber the ganked. This 6 second rule gives them further advantage and makes your ability to survive a gank even less. I have never been attacked by a party smaller then my own. Some times one on one. Mostly two or more on one. This makes it harder for me to defend my self and less risky for the attackers, who at the very least can just heal, retreat and try again. At best I can escape but winning against odds is even harder now then before.
Though to be honest, even if it was a full 6 seconds, even if you have to wait for the next round of combat for the killing blow or the corpse to spawn, I find it very hard to feel sorry for the poor assaulter which decides to snuff the life of another player and to scamper with the corpse without granting anyone the time to react or roleplay around the situation.
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.
Yes please.
You can do twice as much with haste. Scrolls don't need concentration checks and spellcaster on defensive casting mode doesn't give attacks of opportunity.
SURE victory? Where? Its the gankers who decide when and where the fight takes place.
I was referring a situation where two gankers attack you when you are alone. They underestimate you, you manage to beat one of them, but get ganked anyway because now the pair is made immortal by the 6 second rule.
Mostly the gankers outnumber the ganked. This 6 second rule gives them further advantage and makes your ability to survive a gank even less. I have never been attacked by a party smaller then my own. Some times one on one. Mostly two or more on one. This makes it harder for me to defend my self and less risky for the attackers, who at the very least can just heal, retreat and try again. At best I can escape but winning against odds is even harder now then before.
I am going to sound harsh here, but I think this opinion is just out of touch with what PvP has devolved into on the server.
I am going to sound harsh here, but I think this opinion is just out of touch with what PvP has devolved into on the server. This is the system that the developers and DMs have embraced when consequences like corpsehiding and soft-closure are on the table when characters are such a time and roleplay investment in a system that does not facilitate reaching impactful levels with ease. I won't digress the thread to that, but that is the crux of it.
Roleplay happens in PvP before and after the actual mechanical PvP. That's how it's worked for the short two years I've been on the server and how it seems to continue to work.
Edit: To clarify, I'm not defending the fairness of the situation you mentioned. I agree it is scummy, but its a scumminess that is facilitated by the monster that's been created. Note that a large portion of the thread isn't just about taking a corpse but just the situation of attacking a downed player in general which isn't always body snatching or corpsehiding. If someone is trying to have an impactful scene, such as just an assassination in general, then even that 1.8 seconds kinda ruins and cheapens the impact of that scene, doesn't it?
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.
Yes please.
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.
Yes please.
Or not. The coin comes with two sides. Many times I've grabbed a corpse from hungry werewolves or such and ran away.
Can equally happen in PvP.
Maybe instead make the corpses in to containers so they can't be placed inside a container.
I'm reading a lot of nonsense here so let me set a few things straight.
1) The goal of this system is merely to prevent any kind of instant death. A very unpleasant situation for anyone on the receiving end.
2) The 6 seconds protection applies only in PvE situations. Because sometimes NPCs stay locked on a downed PC and keeps attacking instead of switching target. This gives players a better chance of survival, and avoids passing straight away from 0 to -10.
3) If the cause of death is a player or DM possessed, the system protects for 1.8 seconds. This is to prevent multi-attack flurries from insta-killing people in duels and stuff like that.
Though to be honest, even if it was a full 6 seconds, even if you have to wait for the next round of combat for the killing blow or the corpse to spawn, I find it very hard to feel sorry for the poor assaulter which decides to snuff the life of another player and to scamper with the corpse without granting anyone the time to react or roleplay around the situation. Note that the delay doesn,t changes much of anything to begin with. In 99.99% (friendly duels excepted) of PvP incidents I've witnessed, the attacker always do so with certainty of victory. We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.
That PvP has devolved over the years I can only agree, but it has little to do with either rules or mechanics.
| 1. | I say "almost seriously" because I assume you're being flippant to try to make a point, if I'm honest, MAB |
I'm fairly amazed that corpse>>>snatch>>>seeya is actually within the rules of the server. It seems to be a victory of game mechanics over what makes sense IC
I'm fairly amazed that corpse>>>snatch>>>seeya is actually within the rules of the server. It seems to be a victory of game mechanics over what makes sense IC
As for all the talk of corpse snatching realism, IDK, this is a world where PCs are using all sorts of magic and supernatural tools. Seeing someone snag a corpse never bothered me. But, really, having grabbing a corpse take longer wont change whether a capable assassin gets their mark.
I'm fairly amazed that corpse>>>snatch>>>seeya is actually within the rules of the server. It seems to be a victory of game mechanics over what makes sense ICUnfortunately pretty much all the rules we have favor mechanics over RP. Roleplaying less or roleplaying poorly ensures "winning".
While I'm criticising this OOC thinking, can I also point out that King Pickle keeps having these great ideas to slow down the "snatch" part , but nobody else seems to be listening to him?Cheers, here's another one: The corpse container is actually filled with guts, bones, heart, eyes, ears. The kind of stuff MPCs sometimes leave behind.
Turn corpses into containers so they can't be put in bags. About 60% (weight reduction of bags) of the problem solved right there!
It's during PvE events other players will more often have the occasion of trying to save a friend. The game mechanic we implemented goes in that direction.
Though I still abide by my suggestion, I do recognize that actual PvP is such a rare occurrence that it's probably not required to act on that front. More than anything, I'd like to remind that PvP is supposed to be the culmination of RP conflict conducted in a manner satisfactory for all players. This last part is often forgotten in the equation. Don't play to win, play to tell a compelling story. Other's will have a much better time playing a role in your nefarious schemes.
I mean, sure, but at the same time, if picking up a corpse is too easy, then picking up a corpse is too easy, regardless of whether we're discussing PvE or PvP. This is a gothic horror server, not a fantasy action server, making it so my elf friend wizard takes a few seconds more to save my foolish PC from Ooze City is probably OK.
Something that made the whole process seem less gamey and more narratively driven, particularly when its got the potential to be so impactful, seems beneficial to me.
Also, yes, nerf IGMS.
Also, yes, nerf IGMS.
Well, I can't argue with this.
- Some sort of visual cue that someone is carrying a corpse.
I haven't read through this thread but I will comment on the initial post.
There was always meant to be a 6 second period where a character could not be killed after going unconscious. This mechanic was bugged, so I fixed it.
Initially, I made an exception to this rule and set the grace period for PvP to only 2 seconds. Mechanically, this is because this is the amount of time between flurries (waves of attacks). So if someone was in a fight and did not want to corpse the target, it would give a small amount of time to back off without accidentally killing the target.
In testing, it turned out that knocking a character unconscious actually breaks combat, so the earliest you can attack a character after reducing them to 0 hit points is roughly 6 seconds, though this may be slightly variable depending on which part of the attack round you are in when the combat action gets canceled.
Since a smaller window for PvP seemed to bear no practical benefit, it was removed, and the grace period was left at 6 seconds for everything. As a result, this also means a wizard can, for instance, use Isaac's Greater Missile Storm on a target without instantly corpsing them (previously this would almost always corpse a target), which I think is a huge benefit and provides room for more roleplay in PvP for spellcasters without feeling like they've reached for the nuclear option.
The only instance of PvP this effects on paper is when a player would corpse another target in a single round, which wasn't even guaranteed before, and the only way to remove this would be to have no grace period for PvP at all. Even then, if you happened to hit a target unconscious to within 0 to -9 hp, it would still break the combat round and you would still be waiting 6 seconds to kill them. The benefits of having a grace period for PvP vastly outweigh the edge cases where someone might corpse another person in a single round, so I don't see any reason to change the way it works right now.
So is it was 2 ( 1.8 ) seconds before and now is 6?
It was not long ago I saw someone get badly impaired immediately on death.
Since a smaller window for PvP seemed to bear no practical benefit, it was removed, and the grace period was left at 6 seconds for everything. As a result, this also means a wizard can, for instance, use Isaac's Greater Missile Storm on a target without instantly corpsing them (previously this would almost always corpse a target), which I think is a huge benefit and provides room for more roleplay in PvP for spellcasters without feeling like they've reached for the nuclear option.
Imagine wasting 6 seconds waiting to corpse a bleeding out mark when there are witnesses to deal with. SMH amateurs.
This thread had not been responded to in months.Imagine wasting 6 seconds waiting to corpse a bleeding out mark when there are witnesses to deal with. SMH amateurs.
Again, see above. If there a witnesses I would question your decision making and timing. Thats not an assassination, its a public execution.