Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Dardonas on October 21, 2021, 10:32:49 AM

Title: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Dardonas on October 21, 2021, 10:32:49 AM
Posted here: (https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=433.msg703911#msg703911)

Quote
- Updated the bleeding system to better provide a 6 second grace period after first being taken to 0 hit points.

PvP is too time sensitive to allow for the six second grace period.  I can understand its purpose for PvE, but a full round of combat can heavily influence IC events.  Can this be changed for PvP only?  This heavily determines IC events and what transpired vs. what didn't.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Duayne on October 21, 2021, 10:37:47 AM
Can you give a non spoilery example?

The only possibly issue I can see from this is that 6 second grace period being abused for people to heal someone up repeatedly.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: APorg on October 21, 2021, 10:45:13 AM
Basically it adds 6 seconds in a PvP scenario where someone wants to grab the victim and get away.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Dardonas on October 21, 2021, 10:46:13 AM
If you're trying to obtain someone's corpse for a bounty, six seconds is a full round of combat for attacks and a spell (or two if hasted).  It makes classes like rogues and assassins even more unplayable if you have to stand there for six seconds while people hit you. 
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: DaloLorn on October 21, 2021, 11:13:29 AM
If you're trying to obtain someone's corpse for a bounty, six seconds is a full round of combat for attacks and a spell (or two if hasted).  It makes classes like rogues and assassins even more unplayable if you have to stand there for six seconds while people hit you.

Counterpoint: Why should you be able to kill someone in full view of a bunch of their friends and get away with their corpse?
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Dardonas on October 21, 2021, 11:16:50 AM
If you're trying to obtain someone's corpse for a bounty, six seconds is a full round of combat for attacks and a spell (or two if hasted).  It makes classes like rogues and assassins even more unplayable if you have to stand there for six seconds while people hit you.

Counterpoint: Why should you be able to kill someone in full view of a bunch of their friends and get away with their corpse?

It isn't even necessarily taking the corpse and running off.  If someone attacks someone and kills them, having six seconds of plot armor makes the difference between attempted murder and murder.  For some, that's closure or not closure.

Let's say a hypothetical is that a player character is on one-life mode from a DM plot and you try to assassinate them and run out.  You don't necessarily have to get their corpse for the death to be impactful.  But if six seconds of a player lying there in plot armor are allowed to pass, then that's enough time for someone to get healed and negate the attempt while you're attacked by their allies and possibly suffer those consequences that you shouldn't suffer if, say, you slit someone's throat or behead them in roleplay then run off.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: DaloLorn on October 21, 2021, 12:07:05 PM
True, but... it doesn't sound like it'd be a very common problem, and even if it were, you do have the option of trying to assassinate them when they don't have quite so many friends watching.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: ZSRunner on October 21, 2021, 12:13:24 PM
I think this problem can be solved by time playing responsibly on both sides.

It makes me think of the final scene of Jet Li's Fearless. The Japanese fighter, knowing the Chinese fighter had pulled his final punch conceded defeat.

If we know this 6 seconds is a thing, we can be honorable in our PvP.

That said, if you were to slit someone's throat it would still likely take them some time to bleed out completely. In a world where magic exists, one could argue that you'd better stick around for one more swing just to be certain of death.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Dardonas on October 21, 2021, 12:19:22 PM
True, but... it doesn't sound like it'd be a very common problem, and even if it were, you do have the option of trying to assassinate them when they don't have quite so many friends watching.

It's common enough to have influenced a few scenarios lately.  We can't pretend that the consequences aren't high for botching a PvP conflict, and this sort of scenario makes it so that botching PvP is going to be more common than it should.

Those 6 seconds are the difference between people getting corpsehidden and soft-closured or being corpsehidden or soft-closured.  I know that sounds hardened and callous, and it is, but that's the nature of PvP on PotM due to how high stakes often are.

Edit:

Let's not also neglect that this only really is an issue for martial characters in PvP.  Mages can just outright badly impair someone with spells and let's not get into Evard's and Missile Storms. 

Also, Quivering Palm from monks outright corpses someone.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: manyconsonants on October 21, 2021, 12:40:49 PM
Will this have an effect? I've not been downed since this system came into place. Does it prevent you from hitting the unconscious body and killing them? Does it stop you from dealing damage beyond -10 and going straight from someone standing to dead? As I understand it from the changelog, it sounds like it just creates a six second window before you start bleeding rather than making you invulnerable to damage.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Dardonas on October 21, 2021, 12:42:24 PM
Will this have an effect? I've not been downed since this system came into place. Does it prevent you from hitting the unconscious body and killing them? Does it stop you from dealing damage beyond -10 and going straight from someone standing to dead?

In mine and other players' experience, it's been just attacking players who are down and it doing nothing to do them.  They take the hits, but they aren't corpsed. 

Edit: I was told this wasn't a bug, but rather intended based on the changelog.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: manyconsonants on October 21, 2021, 12:44:32 PM
Will this have an effect? I've not been downed since this system came into place. Does it prevent you from hitting the unconscious body and killing them? Does it stop you from dealing damage beyond -10 and going straight from someone standing to dead?

In mine and other players' experience, it's been just attacking players who are down and it doing nothing to do them.  They take the hits, but they aren't corpsed.

I see. Well then yes, I agree this is certainly a concern for PvP and it would be nice if this were changed so PvP is still more immediately fatal.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: APorg on October 21, 2021, 01:01:42 PM
If we know this 6 seconds is a thing, we can be honorable in our PvP.

I think that expectation isn't realistic. A smash-and-grab scenario isn't really an honourable sort of PvP in the first place. Putting myself in the victim's shoes or their friends', I doubt most would be inclined to "honour" a death that the mechanics didn't grant.

However, I agree with Dardonas, this sort of thing makes assassination even more difficult than it already is.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: MJ_Johansson on October 21, 2021, 01:27:28 PM
Seems like a good thing, to me, making assassinations harder. Now I won't speak to people in DM plots who have one life, but for everyone else...

It doesn't make too much sense that you can just kill them, throw their corpse over your shoulder and vanish before anyone can react. If anything, that sort of thing mostly seemed to cause conflict and hard feelings, and a certain lack-of-fun. Actions having consequences is all well and good, but with this change it seems you might have to actually set things up more carefully than smash, grab, run. Heck, you might even have to make it fun and interesting for the person being ganked, which I think is worth striving for.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: zDark Shadowz on October 21, 2021, 01:47:37 PM
PCs aren't vacuum cleaners, it kind of makes sense it should take a full round action to pick someone up, in a way that wont lock up the actions of the person doing the retrieving if they have to abandon the attempt.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Dardonas on October 21, 2021, 01:53:52 PM
PCs aren't vacuum cleaners, it kind of makes sense it should take a full round action to pick someone up, in a way that wont lock up the actions of the person doing the retrieving if they have to abandon the attempt.

Sure, but not every PvP situation is intended to be an abduction and just having them immune to having someone whacking them 2-6 times per round with a greataxe and surviving that is also unrealistic. 
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: JustMonika on October 21, 2021, 02:17:01 PM
PCs aren't vacuum cleaners, it kind of makes sense it should take a full round action to pick someone up, in a way that wont lock up the actions of the person doing the retrieving if they have to abandon the attempt.

Sure, but not every PvP situation is intended to be an abduction and just having them immune to having someone whacking them 2-6 times per round with a greataxe and surviving that is also unrealistic.

The fact we have 'HP' and can be shot with an arrow 20 times and have them all sticking out of you but be fine is unrealistic. There are serious problems with applying any degree of realism to NWN even before applying the magic and fantasy setting.

A six second grace period seems fine for a 'cinematic' setting.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Dardonas on October 21, 2021, 02:22:57 PM
PCs aren't vacuum cleaners, it kind of makes sense it should take a full round action to pick someone up, in a way that wont lock up the actions of the person doing the retrieving if they have to abandon the attempt.

Sure, but not every PvP situation is intended to be an abduction and just having them immune to having someone whacking them 2-6 times per round with a greataxe and surviving that is also unrealistic.

The fact we have 'HP' and can be shot with an arrow 20 times and have them all sticking out of you but be fine is unrealistic. There are serious problems with applying any degree of realism to NWN even before applying the magic and fantasy setting.

A six second grace period seems fine for a 'cinematic' setting.

It heavily unbalances PvP in favor of monks with good quivering palm DCs and mages who can badly impair you with a few IGMS's or Horrid Wiltings.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: MJ_Johansson on October 21, 2021, 02:51:37 PM
So maybe the fix needs to be so the same 6 seconds grace period applies to mages and monks, then, no? Then it would be fair all around.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Evendur on October 21, 2021, 02:53:48 PM
PCs aren't vacuum cleaners, it kind of makes sense it should take a full round action to pick someone up, in a way that wont lock up the actions of the person doing the retrieving if they have to abandon the attempt.

Sure, but not every PvP situation is intended to be an abduction and just having them immune to having someone whacking them 2-6 times per round with a greataxe and surviving that is also unrealistic.

The fact we have 'HP' and can be shot with an arrow 20 times and have them all sticking out of you but be fine is unrealistic. There are serious problems with applying any degree of realism to NWN even before applying the magic and fantasy setting.

A six second grace period seems fine for a 'cinematic' setting.

It heavily unbalances PvP in favor of monks with good quivering palm DCs and mages who can badly impair you with a few IGMS's or Horrid Wiltings.

While I tent to rather agree with the grace period being an issue, perhaps the answer is instead to "fix" quivering palm and certain spells so they no longer impair someone right away.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: zDark Shadowz on October 21, 2021, 02:59:10 PM
If the PvP is unbalanced toward a level 15 Monk or a lvl 13+ wizard using the peak of their abilities, that's only fair for PvP within the spectrum of their level ranges.

I know what the reality is, I think everyone does, but I would think there is an expectation that people PvPing lower level characters with an ability that only works on lower level characters to go for an instant win, or someone using an excessive caster level for an opponents current hit dice... may not need to corpsehide their target with their (nearly unstoppable) ethereal jaunt abilities they both also have right after. They clearly weren't a legitimate threat while alive.

They already have some dumb stuff they've earned to prevent reasonable recoveries.

If people want to hide their identities while PvPing they could use the disguise system rather than just killing and hiding everyone in the room. Or use appropriate threats. More fun for everyone than putting people in a stasis chamber due to lack of creativity.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: King_Abear on October 21, 2021, 03:11:24 PM
Sounds like IGMS needs another nerf.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on October 21, 2021, 03:53:13 PM
I think the grace period is quite nice in this context. Slowing down the pace of PvP seems like a positive to me, at any stage. Iterative changes in that direction shouldn't be harmful to anyone's enjoyment in a server where PvP is already dominated by the tendency toward ganking.

Quivering palm shouldn't impair though. Unless I missed something, that seems out of the scope of what it does in lore: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Monk#Quivering_Palm

I think it makes more sense that the ability instantly incapacitates and leaves someone at -7 like certain other instant death spells.

Instant impairment was probably included for cases like getting hit with extremely powerful spells/attacks while already injured. I can respect the drama and horror that should be tied to someone rapidly getting mummified by Horrid Wilting or mutilated by spells like Destruction or Gutwrench. Certain spells should retain the chance to instantly kill and impair revival, but I don't feel quivering palm fits in that category.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: King Pickle on October 21, 2021, 04:17:50 PM
6 seconds before body grab I can handle.

But if you are outnumbered in PvP, the other guy can just keep healing downed ally before you can corpse them.
At the very least there should be a 6 second period before you can heal them, that would make it "fair" when its 2 vs 1.

Even then this change gives even further advantage to the gankers, who are usually outnumbering their target.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: BlackEmperor on October 21, 2021, 07:05:55 PM
Before the change was put into place, it still took several seconds for the player to disappear on death and the corpse to spawn in, this takes assassinations from a short but notable time to ludicrously long when it comes to PVP.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on October 21, 2021, 07:13:02 PM
6 seconds before body grab I can handle.

But if you are outnumbered in PvP, the other guy can just keep healing downed ally before you can corpse them.
At the very least there should be a 6 second period before you can heal them, that would make it "fair" when its 2 vs 1.

Even then this change gives even further advantage to the gankers, who are usually outnumbering their target.

Offence is always more powerful than defence in this game, though. Even in a battle where everyone is prepared, healing just can't outdo damage forever, not even with the AC people can reach. Potions and spell slots provoke attacks of opportunity, are not infinite and they can only be used at most twice per round, where attacks are free, can be done more frequently, can critical strike, and are queued automatically. I just don't see a situation where someone keeps getting up as realistic. They are continually blinded by being downed so there's really nothing they can do except run a few feet each time, and it's not like the person healing them is invulnerable anyway.

It would be different if healing and attacks could be done simultaneously, but they can't be, you have a time budget to work against, and whether it's a gank or an even fight, it's generally on the attacker to mess up & on the defender to make all the right decisions just to survive.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Phantasia on October 21, 2021, 07:28:57 PM
I think it's a little absurd to believe a person and subsequent corpse/unconscious body can just disappear a body in a room full of prepared individuals, or at least, competent individuals that are at rest but ready to spring at any moment. Even if only one other person is present that isn't your mark, even. As it was, the body phases in and people still don't know what's going on, and by the time they do, a player can be half way across the current domain they're in without any pursuits or something.

This 6 second grace period is fine as it is and sure, maybe it makes "assassinations" harder, but they never should be a matter of "can I get away unseen before anyone knows what's going on with a body slung over my shoulder--I mean stuffing it very quickly into a magic bag which would probably take me like 3-5 rounds to do anyway."

This is just an unrealistic scenario for even the most skilled assassins in Ravenloft's canon. Consider what could happen beyond the scope of the mechanical game where "corpse robbing" was an easy feat to accomplish for the prepared character. You can drop someone with two slick blows and flurry into nothing for 6 seconds, sure.

In that time frame, just about anything could happen. This is the point initiative is rolled, and if someone's faster than you, you might just find yourself in trouble and I think this should be mirrored in any NWN server in some way. People can react, cast spells at you, dispel darkness, dive over the body to prevent you from getting it (you have to kill them now too), and just about anything else. To say that these individuals, if present, can't have time to react, is discrediting their ability as a character and as a player.

I for one have no issue with assassins, PrC or otherwise, having to actually set up a "perfect scenario" to live up to their deadly reputations rather than just using a consequence of the game mechanics to disappear with a body within literal seconds with or without this change.

It is far more gratifying for both parties if they see the kill unfolding before their very eyes rather than a splotch of darkness and a loading screen.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: APorg on October 21, 2021, 07:35:12 PM
Except you don't need powerful potions to do this, you're practically guaranteed to get someone back on their feet with a Cure Serious Wounds (and still pretty likely with weaker healing); people do go around with stacks of those. And every time they get back up it restarts the 6 second timer.

The consequence of this fact is going to be what King Pickle almost alludes to: it will encourage bigger ganking squads and thus risks escalating the scope of conflicts because skillful solo assassinations and "surgical strikes" have been made more difficult. I'm not sure that's a good thing.

I think King Pickle has a point: if people can't be killed in that six second window, they probably shouldn't be healable then, either. That prevents the possibility of a trampoline mechanic.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on October 21, 2021, 07:39:33 PM
The power of the potion doesn't really make a difference. They aren't getting up with health enough to survive one or two more attacks.

The trampoline strategy affords the defending party nothing really. Keeping someone alive for a little longer only counts if they eventually escape, but casting haste or jaunt and running away isn't as simple as it seems after they're already getting knocked down and blinded.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: APorg on October 21, 2021, 07:42:28 PM
You've completely ignored my actual point: the trampoline encourages escalation. This isn't good, the whole PvP structure exists to slow it down.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on October 21, 2021, 07:52:36 PM
I'm less ignoring and more disagreeing. From what I've seen, the structure does not slow down escalation. Retaliatory attacks are already fair game and PvP opt-ins are usually obtained months in advance, so any kind of natural progression has long been compromised. Corpse hides are typically a first offence sort of punishment for a victim, too. Making it harder to kill people with only a single ganker and maybe a single buffer in play isn't going to do much against any of that.

As far as bigger gank squads, well it's arguable if that's a real issue. I can't imagine it's actually a problem that they are interacting with more people in the context of imminent PvP, or interacting with anyone at all in the first place if they're less confident about a successful solo gank now. A lot of the time, people who are pro-gank come on the forums and talk about how the surprise factor is their only strength.

It more or less falls down to a matter of taste. PvP involving larger groups of players and because the system became ever so slightly more gank-proof is not a bad thing in my opinion. Escape is more realistic in a large group PvP scenario than a 1-on-1 gank. When people escape and word spreads of battles and assassinations occurring that way, it's much more natural than everyone finding out who the killer is only when the victim finally gets resurrected.

If that consequence is real, so is the consequence that conflict-prone factions start recruiting more and working together more, which is a good thing since most factions are understaffed and timezone issues exacerbate that.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: King Pickle on October 21, 2021, 07:56:41 PM
Offence is always more powerful than defence in this game, though. Even in a battle where everyone is prepared, healing just can't outdo damage forever, not even with the AC people can reach. Potions and spell slots provoke attacks of opportunity, are not infinite and they can only be used at most twice per round, where attacks are free, can be done more frequently, can critical strike, and are queued automatically. I just don't see a situation where someone keeps getting up as realistic. They are continually blinded by being downed so there's really nothing they can do except run a few feet each time, and it's not like the person healing them is invulnerable anyway.

It would be different if healing and attacks could be done simultaneously, but they can't be, you have a time budget to work against, and whether it's a gank or an even fight, it's generally on the attacker to mess up & on the defender to make all the right decisions just to survive.
You can throw in two greater restoration scrolls in 6 seconds. They would heal 260 hp and wouldn't even give attack of opportunity.
The blinded character can also heal, ethereal jaunt, hide on plain sight or do what ever their thing is.

The point is, you already took that character down. But because they have regeneration or a buddy, you simply can't finish them off and move on to the next target to actually win the fight.
Meanwhile you your self are probably already low on hp at this point and have used your best spells or whatever tricks you have.

Yeah, the advantage is on the attacker(s), so why do you want them have even more of an edge?
Its the attackers who choose when they do it, so under the current circumstances they aren't going to attack you when you are with your friends who can heal you during that 6 seconds. They will get you when you are alone, which is how most PvP already happens.

If you don't want the ninja ganks where assassin casts darkness and poofs away before people can react, fine, add some timer to the corpse.
It should be slow to move a corpse.

My issue is with how fighting multiple opponents has suddenly become even harder.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: APorg on October 21, 2021, 08:01:41 PM
I assure you that I am not the only person reading this thread and thinking "Right, I can't just kill the target quickly now, I have to be ready to kill all allies and any potential healers".

This is not a good direction for the PvP framework to go in. I'm all for making assassinations more realistic, but this is encouraging all-in. This is a perfect example of the law of unintended consequences.


EDIT:

Quote
If you don't want the ninja ganks where assassin casts darkness and poofs away before people can react, fine, add some timer to the corpse.
It should be slow to move a corpse.

Right. Or make corpses heavier. Double their weight, maybe.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on October 21, 2021, 08:31:40 PM
Offence is always more powerful than defence in this game, though. Even in a battle where everyone is prepared, healing just can't outdo damage forever, not even with the AC people can reach. Potions and spell slots provoke attacks of opportunity, are not infinite and they can only be used at most twice per round, where attacks are free, can be done more frequently, can critical strike, and are queued automatically. I just don't see a situation where someone keeps getting up as realistic. They are continually blinded by being downed so there's really nothing they can do except run a few feet each time, and it's not like the person healing them is invulnerable anyway.

It would be different if healing and attacks could be done simultaneously, but they can't be, you have a time budget to work against, and whether it's a gank or an even fight, it's generally on the attacker to mess up & on the defender to make all the right decisions just to survive.
You can throw in two greater restoration scrolls in 6 seconds. They would heal 260 hp and wouldn't even give attack of opportunity.
The blinded character can also heal, ethereal jaunt, hide on plain sight or do what ever their thing is.

The point is, you already took that character down. But because they have regeneration or a buddy, you simply can't finish them off and move on to the next target to actually win the fight.
Meanwhile you your self are probably already low on hp at this point and have used your best spells or whatever tricks you have.

Yeah, the advantage is on the attacker(s), so why do you want them have even more of an edge?
Its the attackers who choose when they do it, so under the current circumstances they aren't going to attack you when you are with your friends who can heal you during that 6 seconds. They will get you when you are alone, which is how most PvP already happens.

If you don't want the ninja ganks where assassin casts darkness and poofs away before people can react, fine, add some timer to the corpse.
It should be slow to move a corpse.

My issue is with how fighting multiple opponents has suddenly become even harder.

Scrolls are one per round. Also any scroll as powerful as greater restoration are not common. Two heal potions for 120 hp I can see, but if you use rare items or high circle spells to wake people up in PvP, you're still throwing away the initiative. You can only do so many of these before you run out yourself. Whoever wakes up still has to make concentration checks or not get knockdowned before they get their spells/scrolls/potions off to escape, leaving whoever was protecting them on their own until they can heal and fight for themselves.

What makes you think the attacker will be low on health and resources if the defending side couldn't keep up? Attacks are queued, actions besides this have to be timed meticulously with another player wailing on you which is pretty difficult to do if you get surprised.

I just don't see why anyone should be given a sure victory if they, on their own, run into two or more people who are about equal in strength to them when together, and decide to fight. If you can't pay the opportunity cost, you can probably afford to wait. Players with a gank-happy mindset weren't throwing themselves into crowds of people "to make it fair" as it is. This idea that ejecting another player from the playing field should be quick and easy has always struck me as absurd, and while fairness itself may or may not have a place in PvP balance, I see nothing unfair about a ganker failing to kill someone because people keep healing their victim. I see a ganker that made a silly decision, and I see them doubling down on it, perhaps because they feel entitled to kill someone just because going first typically guarantees success.

I don't think this is making it easier to gank just because people can make bigger gank squads. They were always able to do that, but they didn't because the more people know about PvP, the more likely it is someone betrays or flakes. Also, it's very time consuming to roam the map hunting for your quarry. You can spend hours on the server looking for someone even if you have confirmed they're still online. I am fully behind the notion that attackers will have to put more time and resources into this kind of thing, and risk more of their people in the action.

I assure you that I am not the only person reading this thread and thinking "Right, I can't just kill the target quickly now, I have to be ready to kill all allies and any potential healers".

This is not a good direction for the PvP framework to go in. I'm all for making assassinations more realistic, but this is encouraging all-in. This is a perfect example of the law of unintended consequences.

I would never have contested that point in the first place. It was the first thing I thought of, too, the idea that group combats are more common now. I see nothing wrong with it. If you had no qualms icing one player by surprise, you probably were okay with killing the rest of them even if you're only going to take the bodies you can physically carry before getting stuck at walk speed.

Like I said before, I don't think there is a framework to PvP. It just is the way it is because there's so little regulation surrounding it and the mechanics aren't very well developed. And if the gameplay moves toward all-in rather than noncommittal jumpscare style kills, I'm not in opposition.

Most people just can't react as quickly and effectively as it takes to repel a buffed ganker, and I think it's completely fine if assassinations become very difficult and the act itself of finishing off a "weak link" in group combat is a time-sensitive, deliberate thing. I was already questioning everything that comes before absconding with the dead body.

edit: These posts are getting pretty huge. I mean no disrespect, and I can identify my bias toward both slower-paced combat, capable groups with real synergy between them banding together to fight, conflicts that glow hotter for more people to experience, and so on. I don't think that this change was necessarily intended, nor do I think it's a perfect solution. But I don't think the consequences you've listed are at all harmful and we may have to agree to disagree on that point. The only way I would change my viewpoint on this would require a full overhaul of the game mechanics anyway.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: APorg on October 21, 2021, 09:06:49 PM
Like I said before, I don't think there is a framework to PvP.

The PvP rules spring from a philosophy. You can claim that it's badly articulated and badly enforced, but you can't argue such a framework doesn't exist; I have had DMs step in to enforce the rules, both in my favour and against me, when I'd crossed a line. Indeed we've seen the rules get refined and changed as a result of actions that challenged the ideas behind them. One of the key ideas in that philosophy is that of responsible escalation.

I know of players who have chosen to PvP solo versus larger groups because they felt that was more responsible than inviting a gank squad.

I know of some players who even feared that inviting a gank squad would lead to DMs nulling PvP for breaking the rules.

Now I'll admit that all the above are anecdotes, some personal, some second hand. But those are positive ideas, and we shouldn't be going away from them.

It's fine for PvP assassinations to be hard for the right reasons. This isn't one.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on October 21, 2021, 09:43:15 PM
I can't wrap my head around the idea that there is "too large a group for PvP" after my own experiences. This isn't just an issue of inconsistent enforcement for me, I'm just not content with the state of the rules and I see too many contradictions for there to be the redundancy needed for such a sensitive part of RP.

Responsible escalation never seemed to come into it. Deliberate deescalation only really happens when there's so many people that are a real threat that people get tired of risking every single moment on the server and contact the other side. That's so rare to see and even if it becomes more common, it will remain more poetic that people decided to actually interact rather than immediately jump to hostilities after a certain threshold has been crossed.

I can't really picture any ways to slow down combat or make assassinations more difficult that won't just break the entire server. The game simply isn't set up for PvP to be satisfying for both sides, there has to be a winner and a loser, and there pretty much has to be a corpse hider and a corpse hidden. Sounds defeatist and utterly pessimistic but exceptions don't change the rules. We can see players trying to do better in noncompetitive environments all the time, trying to promote atmosphere is typically a given when your character isn't seconds from being corpsehidden if you make some mistake, but all the rules do at the moment, I feel, is push people toward doing the thing that is, according to the staff themselves, seen in a negative light but not actionable.

Say this changes or is axed completely - what actually stops people from making a big gank squad because their target is never alone? It is not the real threat, but the perceived threat of having the PvP result nullified. Realistically, we know PvP becomes an option when one side refuses to opt out when given the chance. Anyone with IC precedent to be present for the attack & assist either side is likely to be found justified in doing so, even if the staff does decide to question them. The size of the group doesn't affect the results of the staff team's review. There's no rule for it, and I don't mean to dismiss your anecdotes, but they don't set much of a precedent. The rules and what the staff say set the precedent. If getting a group to gank someone is at all likely to be a violation of the rules (in letter or in spirit), then it will be against the rules with or without this change. If the rules don't change, the staff's position isn't going to change. The team isn't likely to be sympathetic enough to those affected by the change that suddenly groups are seen as no longer breaking the rules when previously they were. But they wouldn't have been breaking the rules.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: APorg on October 21, 2021, 09:56:55 PM
I have to sleep so I won't offer a full reply to your post; it's clear we've had different experiences of PvP on this server.

At any rate, as we both agree that this will encourage gank squads, there's no real argument of substance. It's up to the Dev/DM team to draw their own conclusions.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on October 21, 2021, 10:02:19 PM
I'm satisfied with that. With respect to our join date disparity and the sheer scale of the server, there's no way we could have had identical experiences.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: King Pickle on October 21, 2021, 10:02:52 PM
Scrolls are one per round. Also any scroll as powerful as greater restoration are not common. Two heal potions for 120 hp I can see, but if you use rare items or high circle spells to wake people up in PvP, you're still throwing away the initiative. You can only do so many of these before you run out yourself. Whoever wakes up still has to make concentration checks or not get knockdowned before they get their spells/scrolls/potions off to escape, leaving whoever was protecting them on their own until they can heal and fight for themselves.

What makes you think the attacker will be low on health and resources if the defending side couldn't keep up? Attacks are queued, actions besides this have to be timed meticulously with another player wailing on you which is pretty difficult to do if you get surprised.
You can do twice as much with haste. Scrolls don't need concentration checks and spellcaster on defensive casting mode doesn't give attacks of opportunity.
Items like Quintessence and Curative don't give attack of opportunity.
Scrolls of Heal are more common than greater restoration and unlike potions, they heal 110.
Neither are so rare that I wouldn't have several of both on each of my characters who can use them.
Then there are skills like Lay on Hands that heal far more.
Do I really need to list everything here?
You CAN get the downed character to full health during the 6 seconds and you can initiate the healing action before the PC who did the downing can switch targets, which always restarts the combat round.

You are not throwing away initiative. You already had it and used it to get your enemy low on HP and spells. Now you are healing your ally and securing victory.


I just don't see why anyone should be given a sure victory if they, on their own, run into two or more people who are about equal in strength to them when together, and decide to fight. If you can't pay the opportunity cost, you can probably afford to wait. Players with a gank-happy mindset weren't throwing themselves into crowds of people "to make it fair" as it is. This idea that ejecting another player from the playing field should be quick and easy has always struck me as absurd, and while fairness itself may or may not have a place in PvP balance, I see nothing unfair about a ganker failing to kill someone because people keep healing their victim. I see a ganker that made a silly decision, and I see them doubling down on it, perhaps because they feel entitled to kill someone just because going first typically guarantees success.

SURE victory? Where? Its the gankers who decide when and where the fight takes place.
I was referring a situation where two gankers attack you when you are alone. They underestimate you, you manage to beat one of them, but get ganked anyway because now the pair is made immortal by the 6 second rule.

I don't think this is making it easier to gank just because people can make bigger gank squads. They were always able to do that, but they didn't because the more people know about PvP, the more likely it is someone betrays or flakes. Also, it's very time consuming to roam the map hunting for your quarry. You can spend hours on the server looking for someone even if you have confirmed they're still online. I am fully behind the notion that attackers will have to put more time and resources into this kind of thing, and risk more of their people in the action.
Mostly the gankers outnumber the ganked. This 6 second rule gives them further advantage and makes your ability to survive a gank even less. I have never been attacked by a party smaller then my own. Some times one on one. Mostly two or more on one. This makes it harder for me to defend my self and less risky for the attackers, who at the very least can just heal, retreat and try again. At best I can escape but winning against odds is even harder now then before.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: MAB77 on October 21, 2021, 10:20:00 PM
I'm reading a lot of nonsense here so let me set a few things straight.

1) The goal of this system is merely to prevent any kind of instant death. A very unpleasant situation for anyone on the receiving end.

2) The 6 seconds protection applies only in PvE situations. Because sometimes NPCs stay locked on a downed PC and keeps attacking instead of switching target. This gives players a better chance of survival, and avoids passing straight away from 0 to -10.

3) If the cause of death is a player or DM possessed, the system protects for 1.8 seconds. This is to prevent multi-attack flurries from insta-killing people in duels and stuff like that.

Though to be honest, even if it was a full 6 seconds, even if you have to wait for the next round of combat for the killing blow or the corpse to spawn, I find it very hard to feel sorry for the poor assaulter which decides to snuff the life of another player and to scamper with the corpse without granting anyone the time to react or roleplay around the situation. Note that the delay doesn,t changes much of anything to begin with. In 99.99% (friendly duels excepted) of PvP incidents I've witnessed, the attacker always do so with certainty of victory. We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.

Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Dardonas on October 21, 2021, 10:33:53 PM
Quote
Though to be honest, even if it was a full 6 seconds, even if you have to wait for the next round of combat for the killing blow or the corpse to spawn, I find it very hard to feel sorry for the poor assaulter which decides to snuff the life of another player and to scamper with the corpse without granting anyone the time to react or roleplay around the situation.

I am going to sound harsh here, but I think this opinion is just out of touch with what PvP has devolved into on the server.  This is the system that the developers and DMs have embraced when consequences like corpsehiding and soft-closure are on the table when characters are such a time and roleplay investment in a system that does not facilitate reaching impactful levels with ease.  I won't digress the thread to that, but that is the crux of it.

Roleplay happens in PvP before and after the actual mechanical PvP.  That's how it's worked for the short two years I've been on the server and how it seems to continue to work.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not defending the fairness of the situation you mentioned.  I agree it is scummy, but its a scumminess that is facilitated by the monster that's been created. Note that a large portion of the thread isn't just about taking a corpse but just the situation of attacking a downed player in general which isn't always body snatching or corpsehiding.  If someone is trying to have an impactful scene, such as just an assassination in general, then even that 1.8 seconds kinda ruins and cheapens the impact of that scene, doesn't it?
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: MJ_Johansson on October 21, 2021, 10:37:04 PM
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.

Yes please.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: King Pickle on October 21, 2021, 10:47:19 PM
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.

Yes please.

Or not. The coin comes with two sides. Many times I've grabbed a corpse from hungry werewolves or such and ran away.
Can equally happen in PvP.

Maybe instead make the corpses in to containers so they can't be placed inside a container.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on October 21, 2021, 10:49:16 PM
You can do twice as much with haste. Scrolls don't need concentration checks and spellcaster on defensive casting mode doesn't give attacks of opportunity.

Scrolls can be interrupted if you knock someone down early enough, though, and I'm pretty sure they are not subject to haste in that they let you do two per round. You get just one.

But I digress. You are right, there are other ways to heal people with more common items. PvP is an extreme scenario by the server's standards, more extreme than any dungeon generally, so throwing all you have at it is reasonable. The only question is, will you have time when someone jumps you and is wailing on you while all you do is stand there and hope you can outheal their damage? That's what I mean by throwing away initiative. It just isn't likely that, unless they expected and prepared for the assassin, they're just going to be able to effectively fight back. It's not reasonable to assume they would succeed at doing so, even if they blow a bunch of expensive consumables. They're more likely to die after wasting those consumables or just escape.

SURE victory? Where? Its the gankers who decide when and where the fight takes place.
I was referring a situation where two gankers attack you when you are alone. They underestimate you, you manage to beat one of them, but get ganked anyway because now the pair is made immortal by the 6 second rule.

Yes, I believe it's a sure victory because the gankers decide when and where it takes place. They don't even have to initiate if the odds aren't in their favour, so they wait until it's certain. If they do, since they're ahead from the beginning, they can typically leave any time they want, unless they overcommit after underestimating their target. Underestimating a target and paying dearly for it is perfectly normal and I fully believe the math supports that the average self-buffed/potion-buffed character is generally capable of knocking out two unbuffed people at a similar level caught by surprise.

I arrived at that conclusion knowing how easy it is to KO someone of an equal level within one or two rounds even if they are buffed, it just takes a little luck. Unbuffed characters on this server tend to be very frail even if they have people around them. And you never want to have to deal with someone who's full buffed if you're only partially prepared with a couple extended spells meant to make your buff dance quicker if someone else gets jumped and you want to respond to it. It would be much better to get out of there or finish buffing and then look at the situation before throwing yourself at it, no? This is a luxury you rarely enjoy when defending from a gank, and squandering it is almost never a good idea.

Mostly the gankers outnumber the ganked. This 6 second rule gives them further advantage and makes your ability to survive a gank even less. I have never been attacked by a party smaller then my own. Some times one on one. Mostly two or more on one. This makes it harder for me to defend my self and less risky for the attackers, who at the very least can just heal, retreat and try again. At best I can escape but winning against odds is even harder now then before.

That much I can understand and sympathise with. You are right that the party with more numbers will have more of an advantage than they already did with this change. I think that's a good thing as far as getting jumped goes, because it gives you a chance to stop someone being instantly murdered, wake them up if you're quick, and let them run while you try to fight back, however unlikely it is you win when caught by surprised.

But it's already so unlikely that if you get ganked while outnumbered, you'll actually knock someone out. Escape is always the better option, trying to fight a gank is almost never a good idea unless you were expecting it.

I am going to sound harsh here, but I think this opinion is just out of touch with what PvP has devolved into on the server.

Many thanks to MAB for elaborating. Regarding his opinion on the matter - I do not believe any mechanical change intended to combat this "gank 'n' grab" behaviour is negative. I realise that we will gain nothing by arguing about it forever and the devs have their own priorities, but I don't believe it should stay that way.

There should be all sorts of prevention methods, not to steer people in the other direction, but literally restrict it if it is seen as undesirable.

What about this - if you try to pick up a corpse, it invokes the same script that makes it take several seconds to pick up a herb. Even if the player remains stealthed until they succeed in picking up the corpse, it gives people time to dispel darkness or use a buff that lets them see through it, and detect the assassin. One of many examples where you could introduce counterplay without asking people to do something that might break character.

In this case it doesn't matter if you are rescuing someone or not. The gameplay mechanic is implemented and you have to play around it, PvE or PvP.

Someone else can probably come up with more/better solutions but that is one I think would be great if you want to stop gank 'n' grabs.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: MAB77 on October 21, 2021, 10:52:21 PM
I am going to sound harsh here, but I think this opinion is just out of touch with what PvP has devolved into on the server.  This is the system that the developers and DMs have embraced when consequences like corpsehiding and soft-closure are on the table when characters are such a time and roleplay investment in a system that does not facilitate reaching impactful levels with ease.  I won't digress the thread to that, but that is the crux of it.

Roleplay happens in PvP before and after the actual mechanical PvP.  That's how it's worked for the short two years I've been on the server and how it seems to continue to work.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not defending the fairness of the situation you mentioned.  I agree it is scummy, but its a scumminess that is facilitated by the monster that's been created. Note that a large portion of the thread isn't just about taking a corpse but just the situation of attacking a downed player in general which isn't always body snatching or corpsehiding.  If someone is trying to have an impactful scene, such as just an assassination in general, then even that 1.8 seconds kinda ruins and cheapens the impact of that scene, doesn't it?

That PvP has devolved over the years I can only agree, but it has little to do with either rules or mechanics. Though this is a whole different discussion on its own.

The 1.8 seconds is a mechanical limitation of the game engine. It's the smallest amount of time we could use to achieve the desired effect.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on October 21, 2021, 10:59:43 PM
I think the monster was created long before any kind of grace period was implemented, though that may not be what you were suggesting.

I also don't think the impact is cheapened or ruined if things do not happen instantly before our eyes. As far as RP goes, instant gratification is usually a really bad thing. Just being able to instantly do away with someone because your RP is "I consider myself an assassin, and I drank all these potions" may be impactful but it's still cheap.

If the staff generally agrees that gank 'n' grabs are an issue, there really should be a feature implemented that prevents them. I don't know how you can prevent the gank, but I think if you prevent the grab from being so quick and easy, you start to walk the problem back and force people to deal with the risks, which right now aren't as dramatic as they're made out to be.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Kleomenes on October 21, 2021, 11:12:05 PM
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.

Yes please.

+1
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: MJ_Johansson on October 21, 2021, 11:23:18 PM
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.

Yes please.

Or not. The coin comes with two sides. Many times I've grabbed a corpse from hungry werewolves or such and ran away.
Can equally happen in PvP.

Maybe instead make the corpses in to containers so they can't be placed inside a container.

To be clear, I was voting for a rule, not a mechanical system. And would obviously only refer to hostile -players-, not werewolves or what have you.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: slash on October 21, 2021, 11:29:42 PM
I'm reading a lot of nonsense here so let me set a few things straight.

1) The goal of this system is merely to prevent any kind of instant death. A very unpleasant situation for anyone on the receiving end.

2) The 6 seconds protection applies only in PvE situations. Because sometimes NPCs stay locked on a downed PC and keeps attacking instead of switching target. This gives players a better chance of survival, and avoids passing straight away from 0 to -10.

3) If the cause of death is a player or DM possessed, the system protects for 1.8 seconds. This is to prevent multi-attack flurries from insta-killing people in duels and stuff like that.

Though to be honest, even if it was a full 6 seconds, even if you have to wait for the next round of combat for the killing blow or the corpse to spawn, I find it very hard to feel sorry for the poor assaulter which decides to snuff the life of another player and to scamper with the corpse without granting anyone the time to react or roleplay around the situation. Note that the delay doesn,t changes much of anything to begin with. In 99.99% (friendly duels excepted) of PvP incidents I've witnessed, the attacker always do so with certainty of victory. We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.

I couldn't agree more. I'll be honest, I really don't see the benefit of making assassinations any easier. In my time here on the server I have assassinated people, been assassinated, and watched assassinations happen in front of me many times and with maybe one or two exceptions they have always, without fail, been really just an unpleasant experience all around. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the idea that someone should be able to run up to someone, corpse them, and dart off with their corpse before people get an adequate chance to RP or even react to the situation is completely toxic, and frankly I think it would be best if this six second rule was applied to PvP scenarios, and even increased to ten or even fifteen seconds.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Kleomenes on October 21, 2021, 11:35:01 PM
I'm fairly amazed that corpse>>>snatch>>>seeya is actually within the rules of the server. It seems to be a victory of game mechanics over what makes sense IC
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: APorg on October 21, 2021, 11:51:54 PM
We should make it a rule that a player cannot leave with another player's corpse when their are still hostile enemies standing in proximity.

You know, one of my very first PvP memories on this server was one of Dread AMPC's trying to do a snatch and grab on one of Puck's PCs, to abduct her for some RP.  He wanted to drive some antagonism without being forced to fight all of us. Of course we were all tense after getting out of a Mac plot so we chased him down, and he was a little cross as he felt we were spoiling his attempt to be an antagonist. It's funny to think these days we're almost seriously[1] talking about shutting down all that entirely from the gate.

That PvP has devolved over the years I can only agree, but it has little to do with either rules or mechanics.

While you can't create a good culture from good rules and mechanics alone, bad rules and mechanics do nothing to encourage a good culture. The message "Be excellent to each other and respect each other's roleplay" is a lot easier to take on board when the rules make sense and encourage the behaviour you want to see.

Making bodies weigh a realistic amount is fair. Making bodies take longer to pick up makes sense. Throwing up artificial roadblocks like making corpses electromagnetically stuck to the ground on the flip of a hostile button is not fair or reasonable, and is not going to invite a fair or reasonable attitude in PvP.

 1. I say "almost seriously" because I assume you're being flippant to try to make a point, if I'm honest, MAB
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Hallvor Hadiya on October 21, 2021, 11:54:53 PM
I'm fairly amazed that corpse>>>snatch>>>seeya is actually within the rules of the server. It seems to be a victory of game mechanics over what makes sense IC

Do you mean like picking up an object mid-combat? No different from a barrel, or a weapon. Pen and paper and Neverwinter make no distinction between these two, it is as far-fetched as a player retrieving a particularly awkward weapon from the ground or moving something mid encounter. A corpse has no particular qualities that make it above this, it makes sense in its "reality".  The inventory is only a representation of something on the person, to place a corpse in it mid-fight is the equivalent of slinging it over a shoulder or tying it to you, how well you manage that is represented by your carry capacity.

Turns and rounds are really an abstraction of the melee broken down into six-second intervals, I promise you in six seconds you can pick up an object you could even throw it. What you're saying is less about sense, or cinematics but a matter of player experience. You would need to preference the argument in that way.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: APorg on October 22, 2021, 12:06:27 AM
I'm fairly amazed that corpse>>>snatch>>>seeya is actually within the rules of the server. It seems to be a victory of game mechanics over what makes sense IC

This is a game where people get resurrected, can down strength potions to be superhumanly strong or fast, have magic bags that make what's inside weigh less, or can shapechange into monsters. It completely makes sense to be able to pick up a body IC. Agreed, it's too easy right now, but what doesn't make sense IC are the OOC roadblocks some people would like to erect to slow down the "snatch" part of this process.

While I'm criticising this OOC thinking, can I also point out that King Pickle keeps having these great ideas to slow down the "snatch" part , but nobody else seems to be listening to him?

Turn corpses into containers so they can't be put in bags. About 60% (weight reduction of bags) of the problem solved right there!
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: tom on October 22, 2021, 12:29:40 AM
If its truly just a 1.8 second timer for pvp I'd say thats perfectly fine.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on October 22, 2021, 12:30:24 AM
The main problem to me is the way the corpse is just an item. You can't grapple with the person who picked it up and try to get them to drop the body, you have to kill them before they escape. You should be able to interact in that manner, but the game is a bit dated so you have to take some liberties. Perhaps getting knocked down could eject all corpses from your inventory.

Not being able to bag a corpse would be positive I think, but even better would be something that makes it take longer to pick up a body. This provides counterplay and isn't a suspension of disbelief: running away with a body instead of fighting everyone in the room does make perfect sense, it's just the means of producing that corpse and getting control over it that should be looked at.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: PlatointheCave on October 22, 2021, 12:39:38 AM
I have some thoughts.

I've assassinated many, many PCs. Some had others around. Some didn't. The 6 second grace period was intended to be present for as long as I've played on the server apparently. I have noticed a delay sometimes. It's a delay, but if a round is enough that the people around the assassin could stop the assassin? I dunno, you were probably gonna get got in the time it took a corpse to appear anyway. I have actually had a time when someone got healed repeatedly but they both still died in the end. It doesn't seem an issue.

Attacking someone with a group around is very dangerous. I don't think it should be against the rules to take a corpse from such a scenario because many of the people I did "assassinate" were being abducted and the system doesn't allow for a clean way to do it without a knife and a rez. Yes, you could try to RP it out, but in my experience PCs see red and they go for dead. And if they go for dead while you're trying to RP, you will not be protected by any hard rules.

An example of post abduction roleplay:

Spoiler: show
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/607938450154455046/900961622439362600/Philosophy.jpg)


This is a world with resurrection, and often a criminal or vigilante is incentivized to make a violent point, or extract information, or to create a problem, that isn't about hiding a corpse.

I don't have any respect, really, for the mechanical steps necessary to make a PC fall in PvP. We have an imbalanced server by design. Casters stomp. Palemasters especially. The low level cap relative to the damage various classes can output means that if you want to "assassinate" a PC you only need patience and time. An unbuffed PC will lose to a prepared one going through the motions. I don't really see it as meaningfully different to two PCs squaring off and being buffed. I understand why it feels different, and like there's some agency, but really it's a straightforward and imbalanced engine. It isn't the issue, and never should be, unless we aim to shift the server design ethos to be balance focused like Arelith.

I think a lot of people commenting here haven't played an assassin, or someone that utilises stealth. The assassins that pull their hits off did so because they planned, and worked and studied. There's plenty of would be assassin PCs that got killed trying to pull off a hit wherein they underestimated the threat of a crowd. Where PvP is toxic is where it isn't constructive or executed with an eye to the story. I don't believe assassinations don't fulfill that. Some people against assassinations infront of others in this very thread directed or supported my own PCs doing the very same thing.

The problem is in whether there's a good reason for it to be happening, and in how it is handled afterwards.

As for all the talk of corpse snatching realism, IDK, this is a world where PCs are using all sorts of magic and supernatural tools. Seeing someone snag a corpse never bothered me. But, really, having grabbing a corpse take longer wont change whether a capable assassin gets their mark. Just like reducing IGMS damage doesn't change whether a wizard kills you if you are not also a wizard.

Oh, and I agree with more or less everything Aprog has said.

Also, yes, nerf IGMS.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Lexica on October 22, 2021, 12:52:41 AM
To throw in my two cents as someone who has played a lot of monsters, and has most of her PvP experience from the perspective of monstrous characters- Corpsing people accidentally less often sounds like a great change.

Often, when you're engaging in PvP as a monster, you want to just drop someone to zero and move to pure RP from that point, be it so you can RP out a vampire feeding, intimidate someone, take someone to a clandestine location at swordpoint... Ect. My past experience however has been that while attempting to do this, it's very easy to kill someone by accident. Now, monsters often have mist orbs for precisely this scenario, but if you accidentally badly impair someone or the raise dead fails and they come back as a zombie, suddenly you're no longer able to have the scene you were planning on.

With that in mind, this change seems like it will noticeably reduce the percentage of the time that outcome occurs.

No comment on non monstrous PvP as my experience with that is substantially lesser than some of the other people who have commented already.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Phantasia on October 22, 2021, 01:01:58 AM
As for all the talk of corpse snatching realism, IDK, this is a world where PCs are using all sorts of magic and supernatural tools. Seeing someone snag a corpse never bothered me. But, really, having grabbing a corpse take longer wont change whether a capable assassin gets their mark.

You could make this argument, certainly, but this is speculation at best. Sure, a skilled assassin/player should have no problem dropping the rest present, but as I stated in a previous post, once you do this in any PnP environment initiative has begun/begins for all present players and NPCs in which you could roll horribly, and the entire opposing cast of players/NPCs could all roll better than you and all get to act first. A delay (1.8 seconds in a high paced environment pales in comparison to 6) in bagging a body would mimic this and give players a more than reasonable chance to react, if the assassin isn't already tearing through other people who would raise arms against their immediate mission.

I just can't in any realistic world understand why anyone would argue against more equitable PvP encounters even if it "inconveniences" "assassins." Which for the actual good ones, it won't in the slightest.

In fact it would encourage them to take even grander risks, enlist the assistance of DMs, leave trails for PCs in case of failure or success... it's a greater win if everyone gets to witness a spectacle, rather than a loading screen, I'll reiterate again. Even if your intentions are to raise someone after getting to safety, it's actively frowned upon by the rules to engage in any discourse through tells after PvP whether it's to reassure the party or whatever else. As the aforementioned could come across as false promise and color expectations, when things could go sour during  the RP after.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: PlatointheCave on October 22, 2021, 01:10:12 AM
Yeah, to be clear, I don't see any point in trying to make PvP equitable. It isn't, and never will be, unless we fundamentally shift the server's design ethos. Which could be done. I wouldn't mind it. PvP isn't cool, fun or especially compelling roleplay. It's just a necessary step in realising concepts or deciding conflicts. Add more corpse grabbing time, stop them going in bags, whatever. It'll change the situational factors but it wont make the event any less "toxic". Only addressing why conflict happened or what comes after can decide that.

I also don't care if bagging a body takes more time, or has extra steps. I'd just rather not have a rule saying an assassin can't go for that while others are around. It'd be hard to follow (like, what happens if someone stumbles on the scene? How do I know someone is a hostile actor? Is it fair for me to just start stabbing bystanders?) It'd be a mess.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Phantasia on October 22, 2021, 01:11:50 AM
Of course, you can never fully balance PvP, I was never suggesting that. But that does not mean we can't strive to try and make the encounters more equitable, is what I mean. I didn't mean to come off as absolutist, it's just a very difficult subject to discuss in most cases as there are hardly any solutions worth pursuing that aren't adding more convoluted scripts into the mix.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: PlatointheCave on October 22, 2021, 01:22:56 AM
No, it's my bad, I missread what you said as me suggesting making things more equitable.

I do think we could achieve a pretty balanced PvP environment. Arelith managed it (OKNOT100%ARELITHIANSDON'THURTME). It'd just mean a big, big overhaul.

I do also think if you made corpse recovery more punitive you'd have fewer public assassinations. Which I do feel is a loss; I have sometimes elected to do the public and flashy assassination because it generates a better spectacle and story. The more you limit that, the less feasible it becomes. On balance, it's less skin off the assassins teeth to take the lower risk move.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Phantasia on October 22, 2021, 01:32:54 AM
Having performed several high octane public assassinations in the past on an old character of mine I also disagree with completely making them impossible, but they should not be as seemingly easy as they are now (with first hand experience in the past and things I've observed in the present I think this is true).

They make great spectacle, attract crowds, and people get to participate in the environmental emotes of what's going on and what was left behind to investigate and pursue if they are lucky. Which should be some excitement to be on the receiving end of such attacks, given how much RP it should generate.

What is exactly left behind in a 1.8 second red dead and disappearance where no one gets to do anything but scratch their head in frustration that fully relies on the assailing party to be compliant after the fact (which is not guaranteed)? I believe that is a massive factor of the anxiety present with most situations like this. We never know if we'll just be afk for 8+ months or whatever, or we'll have post-hit RP.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: PlatointheCave on October 22, 2021, 01:46:32 AM
Very little.

Though it's worth noting that there seems to be an attitude like an assassination is necessarily an aggressive move. In a setting where the law is typically Evil you can end up under the thumb or threat of law enforcement that will bounty you for non-violent and even Goodly deeds. In an environment where a snitch is going to get me permanently bought in on a bounty, and put on the few tracks the server has for hard closure - why am I the aggressor for silencing someone actively pushing my character down that route? Especially if they've been explicitly warned before they took the step.

Being constructive and thoughtful is a two way street. If a PC chooses to try to throw mine down that path to an end, why is a "criminal" element being held to a different standard because they happen to be on the wrong side of the law? They might not be the faceless character that pulls the trigger in the end, but they're the reason it happens. The in game law doesn't decide between good and bad story. It's a tool of an evil authority.

I am absolutely in support of more roleplay elements surrounding conflict.

But it should be universal, and proportional. If a PC has earned a hit because they have aggressed using a lawful system with minimal roleplay or, seemingly, motive then I am more inclined to minimise the risk of pursuit or recovery.

I wish that were different, but it'd require changing both sides extensively.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: King Pickle on October 22, 2021, 05:26:21 AM
I'm fairly amazed that corpse>>>snatch>>>seeya is actually within the rules of the server. It seems to be a victory of game mechanics over what makes sense IC
Unfortunately pretty much all the rules we have favor mechanics over RP. Roleplaying less or roleplaying poorly ensures "winning".
Probably because mechanics police them selves so DM's wont have to.
But with rules like that and player base this large, I wouldn't expect anything but toxic behavior that reproduces it self, molding the culture as it is.

That said, I wouldn't completely hinder picking up corpses too much, though some adjustments might do good. Just as easily you may have to escape and carry your friend to safety from corpse snatchers.

While I'm criticising this OOC thinking, can I also point out that King Pickle keeps having these great ideas to slow down the "snatch" part , but nobody else seems to be listening to him?

Turn corpses into containers so they can't be put in bags. About 60% (weight reduction of bags) of the problem solved right there!
Cheers, here's another one: The corpse container is actually filled with guts, bones, heart, eyes, ears. The kind of stuff MPCs sometimes leave behind.
Although then people might start gutting their friends to make them easier to carry...
Maybe this is a terrible idea.
But then I think folks with too much money already burn corpses just to carry them faster, as is. Ah well.


Other than that, I think it would be good if we could extend subdual mode to elemental damage, summons and spells.
If we can subdue someone with a sharp knife then why not with a flaming sword or magic missile just as well?
And why not carry subdued corpses? I know it has been suggested before and there was counter argument, but it wasn't a good one.

That's all I got for now.
I'm glad to hear that its not actually 6 seconds and everything we say is kind of off topic now. But carry on.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Kleomenes on October 22, 2021, 07:56:02 AM
I'm shifted from requiring all hostiles to be downed before picking up corpses, although at times it would lead to more satisfying scenes overall. I do think both picking up and carrying corpses should be harder however.

I know there is always the argument that this is a fantasy world, but I don't think that means anything should go. We should always try and be respectful of the IC situation on an RP server and not just play to game mechanics. For example, try putting a large cardboard box into a bin bag at home, and then tell me stuffing a much heavier, floppy limbed corpse in a bag would be easy - I think you'll agree it would not be! Being able to move things around our inventory is a gameplay quality of life issue, and such quality of life issues shouldn't sound in IC IMO.

Sure, tossing a corpse over your shoulder would be easier, but its not something that takes a fraction of a second like it does currently, and it doesn't place the corpse beyond reach of those you are fighting. Barring polymorphing, picking up and carrying a corpse would present hurdles, in characterly, and surely responsible RP should account for that? Or in fact mechanics.

So if we're in the realm of mechanics shifting to reflect IC, one or more of these could be considered:
- Sardine's suggestion of a "Herb picking" delay for picking up a corpse.
- Pickles' suggestion that corpses are made containers so they can't be bagged.
- Sardine's suggestion that corpses dropped if someone is KD'ed (Closest we've got to grabbing the corpse off someone).
- Some sort of visual cue that someone is carrying a corpse.

Something that made the whole process seem less gamey and more narratively driven, particularly when its got the potential to be so impactful, seems beneficial to me.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: MAB77 on October 22, 2021, 08:15:14 AM
There are compelling reasons not to make carrying corpses harder. Though always taking PvP into consideration, balancing first needs to be done vs PvE, where 99,99% of situations occur. It's during PvE events other players will more often have the occasion of trying to save a friend. The game mechanic we implemented goes in that direction.

Though I still abide by my suggestion, I do recognize that actual PvP is such a rare occurrence that it's probably not required to act on that front. More than anything, I'd like to remind that PvP is supposed to be the culmination of RP conflict conducted in a manner satisfactory for all players. This last part is often forgotten in the equation. Don't play to win, play to tell a compelling story. Other's will have a much better time playing a role in your nefarious schemes.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: APorg on October 22, 2021, 08:56:50 AM
It's during PvE events other players will more often have the occasion of trying to save a friend. The game mechanic we implemented goes in that direction.

I mean, sure, but at the same time, if picking up a corpse is too easy, then picking up a corpse is too easy, regardless of whether we're discussing PvE or PvP. This is a gothic horror server, not a fantasy action server, making it so my elf friend wizard takes a few seconds more to save my foolish PC from Ooze City is probably OK.

Quote
Though I still abide by my suggestion, I do recognize that actual PvP is such a rare occurrence that it's probably not required to act on that front. More than anything, I'd like to remind that PvP is supposed to be the culmination of RP conflict conducted in a manner satisfactory for all players. This last part is often forgotten in the equation. Don't play to win, play to tell a compelling story. Other's will have a much better time playing a role in your nefarious schemes.

I don't think you understand how you undermine the very ethos you -- we -- are trying to champion. Saying "This is too easy in PvE, but shouldn't be so in PvP, so let's rule it IMPOSSIBLE" sends the message, at least to me, that you don't trust players and have to control them with big OOC rules, rather than trying to fix underlying mechanics and rules to be better. That's not a message that contributes to PotM's mission, in my opinion.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: MAB77 on October 22, 2021, 09:40:17 AM
Just the opposite in fact. While I do believe that snatching a corpse and flee immediately once its drop to the floor is poor form, while I did certainly made the proposal to avoid this behavior, I also acquiesced that the situation is so rare that an actual ruling is probably not necessary. I am rarely in favor of complicating rules and making exceptions to them. It adds a layer of complexity for DMs to adjudicate and they certainly do not need that.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on October 22, 2021, 12:24:04 PM
I mean, sure, but at the same time, if picking up a corpse is too easy, then picking up a corpse is too easy, regardless of whether we're discussing PvE or PvP. This is a gothic horror server, not a fantasy action server, making it so my elf friend wizard takes a few seconds more to save my foolish PC from Ooze City is probably OK.

I'm completely with you here.

I'd really rather well-thought out mechanics are added instead of rules. We can't correct mindset problems and toxicity with rules or gameplay mechanics, players do have to be more understanding of one another, but it has to be a two way street.

I respect that those of you who have been here for years longer than us post-EE new players have seen a lot more variety in your PvP, but as stated before it will be difficult to convince me that exceptions make the rules. Convincing me may be pointless, but a huge chunk of the remaining community still views PvP in a certain light, or rather, the long shadow that gank culture has cast over all player conflict. Attachment is at the core of the problem, but so is OOC competition between players.

A lot of players rightly worry that if they don't play PvP like that, they're going to have to PvP against someone who prefers not to take any chances, and it's not about the fact that they've lost, but rather they trusted the wrong person. The "group narrative" thing that gets pushed every time this comes up, it just falls apart when people have their trust broken. A few people will be convinced to repeatedly take chances on others for no gain and they will be let down each time.

The rules right now allow exceptions to shine as a good example of what to do, and it's nice to know that happens sometimes, but most players aren't getting that far. Most ganks aren't high profile assassinations and abductions, they're just ganks. Most aren't this big, risky, narrative-enriching play, they're the path of least resistance, the quickest and easiest thing to do in order to eject someone from play.

I don't think this has ever been an issue of "all ganks are an initiation before which no hostilities have occurred." It's more an issue of reasonable escalation rarely being chosen as a guiding principle for a conflict, the same with deescalation, and all of the RP surrounding that over just disappearing someone. I don't have to have played assassins as my main character archetype to read posts from players who do, and who admit they are comfortably justified with simply ganking and corpsehiding, then pointing to the rules, no mention of post-abduction RP anywhere, which is, again, not only not a guarantee, but so rare it's not expected.

I also don't think it's inevitable that all conflict breaks down into ganks, but it only has to happen to someone once for them to lose faith in the "spirit of the rules" protecting them any longer. My own experience is not in being ganked and coming here to complain about it, but rather trying to deescalate or negotiate IC. More often than not it goes nowhere, whether it's before someone gets ganked and corpse hidden or after. People just psyche themselves up to the point they want to get the gank and hide over with so they never have to think about it again.

So, circling back to the start of my post, changing the paradigm requires more sympathy from both sides as far as mindsets go. No one player on either side of the fence is to blame for everyone else's actions, and divvying us up into tribes isn't how this should work.

Something that made the whole process seem less gamey and more narratively driven, particularly when its got the potential to be so impactful, seems beneficial to me.

This is where I'm at with it too. The systems surrounding all conflict feel bare. It tends to feel more like a black hole of RP and an afterthought, wherein staff hope players will do right by others, but that's rarely what actually happens, and more people realise it than ever with the server being more populated and connected than ever these days.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: APorg on October 22, 2021, 12:47:55 PM
The PvP thing is a matter of experience, I guess. It's mostly about making an effort to communicate with the other player in a way that makes the choice between de-escalation and escalation clear -- but also documenting your communication with the DMs so if someone turns around and abuses your trust OOC, you can point out that fact to the DMs. I've had positive results with this approach, but it's something I learned even before PotM, playing in games with a far more aggressive and free-for-all PvP approach.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on October 22, 2021, 01:52:43 PM
I've personally noticed less of all this in such games. This is the first one with a corpse mechanic and a requirement to hostile anyone or opt-in beforehand, and it was a bit of a culture shock to find out people were waiting after death to know what comes next for their character. It's a lot simpler when death means death, but this approach would go against everything this server is about.

I think most would really prefer to not have to log all their interactions. It makes the game feel less natural if instead of logging in to have fun, you have to build up a case file on everyone who crosses your character. You could stand to gain, but the likelihood of having the other party correct their behaviour, rather than a DM admitting "that sounds very unfortunate but it is not against the rules," makes that not worth it unless you just like logging for the sake of it.

All these added steps have to exist because of the grey area created by lackluster mechanics. Without blaming anyone in particular, if this is chicken or egg, I think it's the gameplay of PvP encounters and the rules that created the mentality, and I'd like to see it opposed by more than a few forumgoers and a handful of staff members. I don't want rules that make people have to go out of their way to do things their character wouldn't, or new gameplay mechanics that make it impossible to actually kill PCs, but I would like to have more than a suggestion by the staff that "it's the nice thing to do" with the opposite being frowned upon (to no meaningful end nor satisfaction for the wronged).
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: King_Abear on October 22, 2021, 02:12:58 PM
Also, yes, nerf IGMS.

Well, I can't argue with this.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: tylernwn on October 22, 2021, 05:53:27 PM
Also, yes, nerf IGMS.

Well, I can't argue with this.

Honestly, if this was nerfed any harder, just remove the spell from the game. But it would not stop a warded caster from killing an unwarded player. We would just shift the complaining to Horrid Wilting, The Fogs spells, Polar Ray, the Orb spells, etc.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Bad_Bud on October 22, 2021, 07:23:13 PM
I haven't read through this thread but I will comment on the initial post.

There was always meant to be a 6 second period where a character could not be killed after going unconscious. This mechanic was bugged, so I fixed it.

Initially, I made an exception to this rule and set the grace period for PvP to only 2 seconds. Mechanically, this is because this is the amount of time between flurries (waves of attacks). So if someone was in a fight and did not want to corpse the target, it would give a small amount of time to back off without accidentally killing the target.

In testing, it turned out that knocking a character unconscious actually breaks combat, so the earliest you can attack a character after reducing them to 0 hit points is roughly 6 seconds, though this may be slightly variable depending on which part of the attack round you are in when the combat action gets canceled.

Since a smaller window for PvP seemed to bear no practical benefit, it was removed, and the grace period was left at 6 seconds for everything. As a result, this also means a wizard can, for instance, use Isaac's Greater Missile Storm on a target without instantly corpsing them (previously this would almost always corpse a target), which I think is a huge benefit and provides room for more roleplay in PvP for spellcasters without feeling like they've reached for the nuclear option.

The only instance of PvP this effects on paper is when a player would corpse another target in a single round, which wasn't even guaranteed before, and the only way to remove this would be to have no grace period for PvP at all. Even then, if you happened to hit a target unconscious to within 0 to -9 hp, it would still break the combat round and you would still be waiting 6 seconds to kill them. The benefits of having a grace period for PvP vastly outweigh the edge cases where someone might corpse another person in a single round, so I don't see any reason to change the way it works right now.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Mayvind on October 22, 2021, 07:34:11 PM
This is very passionate post to kill other players !  :shock:
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: King Pickle on October 22, 2021, 07:38:58 PM
- Some sort of visual cue that someone is carrying a corpse.

Years ago. Like years and years ago before the EE when even the stars were different, I was making... Er, not really making. More like looking in to making a corpse system where when picked up, the corpse would, as a cursed item, jump to your cloak slot.
It would have (had) an actual visual corpse you would carry according to race and gender and to some extend colors they were wearing.

But I wasn't finished.
Or even started, really.
Mostly because someone would have had to animate the 3d model carrying a corpse and that wasn't within my skill set.
And possibly some other technical issue I forget.

I haven't read through this thread but I will comment on the initial post.

There was always meant to be a 6 second period where a character could not be killed after going unconscious. This mechanic was bugged, so I fixed it.

Initially, I made an exception to this rule and set the grace period for PvP to only 2 seconds. Mechanically, this is because this is the amount of time between flurries (waves of attacks). So if someone was in a fight and did not want to corpse the target, it would give a small amount of time to back off without accidentally killing the target.

In testing, it turned out that knocking a character unconscious actually breaks combat, so the earliest you can attack a character after reducing them to 0 hit points is roughly 6 seconds, though this may be slightly variable depending on which part of the attack round you are in when the combat action gets canceled.

Since a smaller window for PvP seemed to bear no practical benefit, it was removed, and the grace period was left at 6 seconds for everything. As a result, this also means a wizard can, for instance, use Isaac's Greater Missile Storm on a target without instantly corpsing them (previously this would almost always corpse a target), which I think is a huge benefit and provides room for more roleplay in PvP for spellcasters without feeling like they've reached for the nuclear option.

The only instance of PvP this effects on paper is when a player would corpse another target in a single round, which wasn't even guaranteed before, and the only way to remove this would be to have no grace period for PvP at all. Even then, if you happened to hit a target unconscious to within 0 to -9 hp, it would still break the combat round and you would still be waiting 6 seconds to kill them. The benefits of having a grace period for PvP vastly outweigh the edge cases where someone might corpse another person in a single round, so I don't see any reason to change the way it works right now.

So is it was 2 ( 1.8 ) seconds before and now is 6?
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Bad_Bud on October 22, 2021, 07:54:24 PM
So is it was 2 ( 1.8 ) seconds before and now is 6?

The 2 second grace period for PvP was never implemented on the server; it was only in place during testing, and testing revealed it wasn't necessary. The grace period is 6 seconds.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on October 22, 2021, 07:57:26 PM
Thank you for the extra insight and context, Bad_Bud.

This is a pretty major change. For all my time here (starting in 2019) I was used to this server allowing people to just drop dead in combat, or have to make the hidden save against instakill & take the dispel.

The recent patches disallowing CON drops to kill and the grace periods are eye opening and seem to go against the "brutally hardcore" image that Ravenloft projected for the longest time. But I think they'll be very nice quality of life changes for those who are all too used to seeing people drop dead before their eyes because of an unlucky crit and having to drag them to a healer. What practical or noticeable effect it will have on PvP I can't say, but the consistency that the fix provides will probably be for the better.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: King Pickle on October 22, 2021, 08:03:13 PM
How long has this been in place and working now?
It was not long ago I saw someone get badly impaired immediately on death.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: APorg on October 22, 2021, 08:09:16 PM
It was not long ago I saw someone get badly impaired immediately on death.

Massive Damage is technically something different and presumably meant to bypass the grace period.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: noah25 on October 23, 2021, 02:23:50 AM
My experience in PVP is that the instigator always has a huge advantage regardless of class. Unless your target is meta gaming heavily, you are impatient, or horribly botch it I don't really find the "assassination is too hard" argument to have a lot of merit. If you are an assassin im questioning why you are jumping someone in front of all their friends to start with.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: DaloLorn on October 23, 2021, 03:24:54 AM
Since a smaller window for PvP seemed to bear no practical benefit, it was removed, and the grace period was left at 6 seconds for everything. As a result, this also means a wizard can, for instance, use Isaac's Greater Missile Storm on a target without instantly corpsing them (previously this would almost always corpse a target), which I think is a huge benefit and provides room for more roleplay in PvP for spellcasters without feeling like they've reached for the nuclear option.

Ooh, neat. I can go all-out in a duel without worrying about murdering people. :D

(... Barring massive damage, I guess.)
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Philos on October 23, 2021, 06:39:02 PM
Imagine wasting 6 seconds waiting to corpse a bleeding out mark when there are witnesses to deal with. SMH amateurs.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: noah25 on January 08, 2022, 11:23:55 AM
Imagine wasting 6 seconds waiting to corpse a bleeding out mark when there are witnesses to deal with. SMH amateurs.

Again, see above. If there a witnesses I would question your decision making and timing. Thats not an assassination, its a public execution.
Title: Re: PvP is too sensitive for a 6 second grace period when downed
Post by: Swan on January 08, 2022, 11:41:04 AM
Imagine wasting 6 seconds waiting to corpse a bleeding out mark when there are witnesses to deal with. SMH amateurs.

Again, see above. If there a witnesses I would question your decision making and timing. Thats not an assassination, its a public execution.
This thread had not been responded to in months.