Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Catacomb on March 27, 2007, 06:28:15 PM

Title: Leatherworking
Post by: Catacomb on March 27, 2007, 06:28:15 PM
In my own experience, Leatherworking is kinda low on options at the moment. (padded, leather, and studded leather armor is all there is to make.) Is it possible that we could see cloak, whip, boot, and glove templates anytime soon?





(Posted under the "Squeeky wheel gets the grease" philosophy)
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Helaman on April 01, 2007, 06:47:33 PM
The Bowyer is in a similar position - while his items are intrinsically more valuable, the elves make and sell better...
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: EO on April 01, 2007, 06:48:36 PM
We discussed this at our last development meeting and we might implement arrow making in the whole bowyering trade.

Also, keep in mind that weapons and bows alike will really shine when enchanting is in and the base stats you see are improved with enchantments.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Ryltar/ Robert Archer on April 01, 2007, 07:14:12 PM
We discussed this at our last development meeting and we might implement arrow making in the whole bowyering trade.

Also, keep in mind that weapons and bows alike will really shine when enchanting is in and the base stats you see are improved with enchantments.

huh freaking za!! bout time with arrow making being put it :)

anyhow also what i think might be needed is some basic lvl 1 recipes for basic stuff etc
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Helaman on April 01, 2007, 09:43:16 PM
Also, keep in mind that weapons and bows alike will really shine when enchanting is in and the base stats you see are improved with enchantments.

Hmmm - this is a low magic server, right? Enchanting stuff is a) gonna raise the level of magic that everyone has a magic weapon, and b) Benefit the Mages (again - I say again, because your average fighter needs a mage buffs to get his weapon to be able to fight all those DR beasties out there where as mages - assuming they aren't burnt at the stake - can blow them away with a will and rely on stoneskin etc to keep them safe) because we have to go cap in hand to them for it and even if they spent a perm Con point lost etc per item, they will still make insane money because they can charge what they will.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Ravenous on April 02, 2007, 05:25:02 AM
Question... Who would enchant but someone able to use magic? Noone..
Come on, play your chars and stop worrying about everyone else. Makes a person alot happier :D
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Helaman on April 02, 2007, 06:22:59 AM
Fair enough...
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Catacomb on April 05, 2007, 04:59:38 PM
I just completed a set of wolf leather padded armor, and... uh.... it isn't any different than normal leather padded armor.

Is that right, or a bug?
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Ryoga on April 06, 2007, 02:42:50 AM
hello people just one question how many levels each crafting have?

because i have boiled lots of leather and cure a lot of skins and i dont get any crafting experience it just said hide curing level 1 cxp 0, contrary on leather working i get xp everytime i make leather armor.

So hide curing just have 1 lvl or there is a bug?

Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Mcskinns on April 06, 2007, 02:58:46 AM
hello people just one question how many levels each crafting have?

because i have boiled lots of leather and cure a lot of skins and i dont get any crafting experience it just said hide curing level 1 cxp 0, contrary on leather working i get xp everytime i make leather armor.

So hide curing just have 1 lvl or there is a bug?



You won't get any CXP for curing most hides... anything DC 15 or above will give a bit of CXP though.  So try working in those when you can and eventually you'll get to the next level.


Quote from: Catacomb
I just completed a set of wolf leather padded armor, and... uh.... it isn't any different than normal leather padded armor.

I believe thats normal, its considered a base leather for items so it holds no special properties.  Try working with boiled leather and thick fur patches or boiled and crag fur for some variances.  Experiment with new furs when you get a chance, and don't be too surprised if the DC's go up for the more rare types.  Some of them yeild nice bonuses, others not so grand.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Catacomb on April 06, 2007, 05:55:10 PM
Quote from: Catacomb
I just completed a set of wolf leather padded armor, and... uh.... it isn't any different than normal leather padded armor.

I believe thats normal, its considered a base leather for items so it holds no special properties.  Try working with boiled leather and thick fur patches or boiled and crag fur for some variances.  Experiment with new furs when you get a chance, and don't be too surprised if the DC's go up for the more rare types.  Some of them yeild nice bonuses, others not so grand.

I've experimented with a couple different types of leathers.  I wanted to point out wolf leather because it increases the DC by 5 over using normal leather... yet yields no benefit. In addition it is one of the most valuable types of leathers that I've found. (9 fang per square compared to 3 for worg, and five for thick/crag cat leather.)

Why is wolf hide so valuable and so hard to work if it doesn't net any benefit to leatherworkers? It should either be worthless because of it's difficulty to work.... or it should net the creator something for being harder to use. (+1 discipline, -1 tumble maybe?)
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Lyrithean on April 11, 2007, 12:54:49 PM
Would like to see some of the more.. exotic hides added but probably not on regular drop so they can be used as rare quest items.

Lycanthrope hides
Zombie Skin
Hides from the various player Races (obviously for those evil types... human hide padded armor?)

And like I said, not on regular drop. Would make great quest items or RP rewards.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Preppunk19 on April 11, 2007, 03:18:11 PM

Hides from the various player Races (obviously for those evil types... human hide padded armor?)

And like I said, not on regular drop. Would make great quest items or RP rewards.

I like this idea a lot.  My monk would love to make some human skin items, but I also think we need more options.  How about gloves, boots, cloaks and masks (I'm all about the masks here, Leatherface indeed)?
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Ryoga on April 12, 2007, 01:56:37 PM
Anyone knows what kind of leather patch have a dc of 15 when boiled?

because i have boiled lots of hides and none of them gives me cxp and is a little bit stressing besides, there si a bug with teh boiling thing sometimes when you have the leather patch and wax it says you dont have the proper items and nothing happens any suggestions are welcome
 :)
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Catacomb on April 25, 2007, 03:51:20 PM
First off.... dire hides have DC 20 when boiled.


Warning: This is gonna be a rant.  Some stuff in it is the serious honest truth, but a lot of it is going to be wild exagerations. 

Now, here's my radical suggestion.  The thick fur armor/clothing/cloak available in stores need to be nerfed, or the player-made leathers need to be improved.  There's not a single person on the server who would buy thick fur leathers from a player ever.   

"Hm.... lets see.  I can go to the store and buy thick fur armor (hide armor with 15 cold DR, +1 saving throw vs. cold, and 25% fire vulnerability)  ..... or I can buy this player made thick fur armor (hide armor with 10 cold Dr and 25% fire vulnerability)"

My suggestion for the store bought cold gear?  Well there's many options. Give thick fur armor/clothing a dex penalty for being big and bulky... Decrease their Cold DR.... increase their fire vul..... heck, give them a negative AC modifier if you must! Would see people searching for leatherworkers then, and it'd reduce the amounts of people running about indoors with those massive cold weather suits on, because, as anyone who has ever been in big heavy cold weather gear knows, You really don't want to wear that crap unless you're someplace very cold.  ;)

Crag cat fur is currently worthless, as it's designed for cold weather, yet makes the person actually end up taking more damage in cold situations than they would if they just had a cloak.  I really like the concept of cold resistance and vulnerability... but the cold resistance would need to be much higher to make it worthwhile. (15 or maybe even 20 combined with the 25% vul.)


I really hope that leatherworking could become a profitable career for players the way smithing is... but without some major changes I just don't see it happening.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Helaman on May 22, 2007, 11:10:49 PM
First off.... dire hides have DC 20 when boiled.


Warning: This is gonna be a rant.  Some stuff in it is the serious honest truth, but a lot of it is going to be wild exagerations. 

Now, here's my radical suggestion.  The thick fur armor/clothing/cloak available in stores need to be nerfed, or the player-made leathers need to be improved.  There's not a single person on the server who would buy thick fur leathers from a player ever.   

"Hm.... lets see.  I can go to the store and buy thick fur armor (hide armor with 15 cold DR, +1 saving throw vs. cold, and 25% fire vulnerability)  ..... or I can buy this player made thick fur armor (hide armor with 10 cold Dr and 25% fire vulnerability)"

My suggestion for the store bought cold gear?  Well there's many options. Give thick fur armor/clothing a dex penalty for being big and bulky... Decrease their Cold DR.... increase their fire vul..... heck, give them a negative AC modifier if you must! Would see people searching for leatherworkers then, and it'd reduce the amounts of people running about indoors with those massive cold weather suits on, because, as anyone who has ever been in big heavy cold weather gear knows, You really don't want to wear that crap unless you're someplace very cold.  ;)

Crag cat fur is currently worthless, as it's designed for cold weather, yet makes the person actually end up taking more damage in cold situations than they would if they just had a cloak.  I really like the concept of cold resistance and vulnerability... but the cold resistance would need to be much higher to make it worthwhile. (15 or maybe even 20 combined with the 25% vul.)


I really hope that leatherworking could become a profitable career for players the way smithing is... but without some major changes I just don't see it happening.

Interesting
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: eyeofpestilence on May 23, 2007, 01:48:41 AM
First off.... dire hides have DC 20 when boiled.

I really hope that leatherworking could become a profitable career for players the way smithing is... but without some major changes I just don't see it happening.

Two things.

1) DC 20 for boiling leathers. Get over it. Smelting Bronze has a DC of 25 after you have smelted the copper and tin sperately at DC 15. Iron has a DC of 25 and Steel a DC of 30. BTW Steel requires coal and even Dorin will not go to get that alone. Minimum two and better with four players just to get the coal to make steel.

Steel Full Plate with Worg hide has a DC of 50! No typo. 50! A steel Chain Shirt with Worg has a DC of 35. Dorin with 21 ranks (yes that is not a typo) in smithing (not including stat bonuses which he has no dex bonus so only str is added) is just now becoming profitable with smithing. I have been working IC for over a month throwing money left right and center into it, not including many long hours mining and standing at the smelter or forge alone. I would hazard Dorin has spent upwards of 25K to 30K thrown into it in templates. Only so that I can get back a meazly 1/8th (or less) of what I purchased the template for. Does this help to explain why Full Plate and Steel is so expensive? I think so.

So please I appreciate your rant, but given the numbers I'm seeing in smithing a 20 is not something I find incredibly time intesive to achieve since with stat bonuses and a little luck one can achive it from the start. Especially if one can buff them selves like I know Marin can.

2) I concur with the think fur leathers point, and for that matter Craig Cats leather, they don't work. There is no point to use them in steel or leather apparently. A cloak is a better investment. These could use an adjustment to help increase the player driven economy of character made goods. Either increase the DR or remove the vulnerability. Right now I don't know who or why someone would buy them.

Oh...and Helaman. Nice sarcasm you apprentice smith.  :lol:
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Helaman on May 23, 2007, 02:07:42 AM
Wasnt sarcasm though *shrugs* Oh well.

I more or less was interested in the TN and more importantly that PLAYER generated leathers were inferior to those available from NPCs. Steel and Iron are superior to shop purchased weapons but I've never met a leatherworker who can improve upon the current products. Admittedly it takes a LONG time to get to any level of smithing/smelting (level 6 seems to be the hump - I'm still struggling to get there) maybe there is something out there for leather workers at higher levels.

As for mining? I got to do a massive leather run (or get Miranda to sell me some) then do a big tin run and then a massive Copper run because Copper isnt getting me anywhere fast. I crafted 9 copper chain shirts from 13 and barely went up in CXP.

Once I hit level 5 in Smith and 6 in Smelt I'll do a Iron and Coal run with you.

Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Catacomb on May 23, 2007, 05:28:03 PM
Players can make "better" leathers. 

If I combined winter wolf/thick fur with hard boiled hide, I could produce studded leather with:
10 Cold DR
25% Fire Vulnerability
+1 AC VS. Slashing
+1 AC VS. Bludgeoning

However.... from just about any vendor, you can already buy Studded leathers with:
15 Cold DR
25% Fire Vulnerability
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Catacomb on May 23, 2007, 05:32:49 PM
1) DC 20 for boiling leathers. Get over it. Smelting Bronze has a DC of 25 after you have smelted the copper and tin sperately at DC 15. Iron has a DC of 25 and Steel a DC of 30. BTW Steel requires coal and even Dorin will not go to get that alone. Minimum two and better with four players just to get the coal to make steel.

Wasn't complaining about boiling dire hide, was just pointing out what hides can get a boiler xp for Ryoga.  :P

I actually was surprised at the lack of "difficult" leathers to work. It almost seems like the system was designed so that smith's could make their own leather, which doesn't make much sense to me, as I always imagines smith's commisioning a Leatherworker for leather.  :|


Also.... padded leather made with razorback leather and normal boiled hide is already DC 30... so leather working DC's get up there too. ;)


Final Edit:
Quote from: jrgood1
Especially if one can buff them selves like I know Marin can.

For the record, Marin cannot buff herself as she's a conjurer, and all the stat buff spells are transmutation.  :P
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: eyeofpestilence on May 23, 2007, 06:08:09 PM
I stand corrected. :)

My knowledge of leather working consists of Tanning.  :lol:  Just enough to provide for armor. But I now have a source or two. :)
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Catacomb on July 08, 2007, 08:35:10 PM
Alright, after a bit more leatherworking experience I've come to a conclusion.

Currently the base leather DC's go...
Padded 15
Leather 17
Studded 20


This is really bass ackwards since leather and padded are the more valuable leather based armors.  My suggestion is make the DC's go....

Studded 15
Leather  18
Padded  20

or even...

Studded 15
Leather  20
Padded  25


Explain it as being more difficult for a leatherworker to achieve sufficient protection while keeping the armor nice and thin and lightweight, because, in the end, Leather and Padded armors are the effective counter-part to the smith's Half-plate and Full-plate.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Catacomb on July 10, 2007, 05:13:44 AM
Gonna start throwing out suggestions for other bonuses that leathers could provide.

Wolf leather
+1 discipline
- 2 Tumble

Wolf leather is less flexible than other types of leather, resulting worse restriction on movement, but better support against blows.



Small animal fur (make it into it's own type called "thin leather", and have the DC be the same as using normal leather)
- 1 AC
+3 tumble
- 2 Discipline

Because small animals typically have thinner skin, armor made from them is much more flexible. This can be a good thing for dodging blows, but it also provides little to no support when an actual blow is struck.



Snakeskin
+2 Influence
+2 Antagonize

Wearing snakeskin armor draws the eye.  A person trying to persuade or bluff can benefit from the attention their armor draws.  In the same way a person can use the extra attention their armor draws to make themselves look completely arrogant and threatening.



Winter Wolf
10 Cold DR
+ 1 discipline
- 2 tumble

Extremely warm, winter wolf fur is superior to other cold weather leathers in that it's not any more flamable than normal wolf leather.



Dire (insert type)
10 cold DR
+ 2 discipline
+ 2 antagonize
- 4 tumble

A person wearing Dire leather armor is obvious.  The leahter is thick and impressive helping against the cold, helping to absorb hits, and even helping the wearing frighten off enemies.  Just don't expect to do any rolling in such furs.



Ancient dire bear
15 Cold
+ 3 discipline
+ 3 antagonize
- 5 tumble

Ancient dire bear hide is everything that dire hide is, only to a greater extreme.
 


Here are some alternatives for dire and ancient dire bear hides

Dire (insert type)
10 cold resist
- 1 AC
3 slashing DR

Dire leather is bulky, making a wearer easy to hit. Even so bladed weapons have a terrible time dealing with the thick leather.


Ancient Dire Bear
10 cold resist
- 1 AC
3 slashing DR
3 bludgeoning DR

Ancient Dire Bear leather is bulky, making a wearer easy to hit. Even so, blunt weaponry typically bounces off the the leather, and blades have a hard time slicing through.  Only piercing weapons are truely effective.

Could also have dire/ancient dire hide increase the items weight maybe.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Helaman on July 10, 2007, 05:22:28 AM
Why do leathers give Discipline bonuses? Just curious...

Incidently we need an exocist to drive the gremlins out of the leather shop... I worked 20 work hides and got 7 successes...

I just needed to roll a 7 or better on D20 for success... yet I failed 2/3rds of the time!
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Catacomb on July 10, 2007, 05:49:56 AM
Why do leathers give Discipline bonuses? Just curious...

Incidently we need an exocist to drive the gremlins out of the leather shop... I worked 20 work hides and got 7 successes...

I just needed to roll a 7 or better on D20 for success... yet I failed 2/3rds of the time!

My thoughts on it were more rigid leathers would give bonuses to discipline for the additional support, but negatives to tumble because of the decreased flexability.

Oo!

Any sort of leather that gave bonuses to Move silently and or Hide would be vastly appreciated by the leatherworkers of the server, seeings as when I'm asked for leather armor about 75% of the time the person who asks wants stealthy leathers.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Helaman on July 10, 2007, 07:47:28 AM
Now THATS a good idea... 1 part boiled leather, 5 parts soft leather (mink) = something nice... another use for mink fur!
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Dreaderick on January 06, 2008, 06:01:15 PM
*Performs thread necromancy!*

Well, I spent the last couple of days doing some leather working. So far it seems a bit pointless. None of the stuff you make is worth any money, not even DC34 studded leathers, which are the best you can make as far as I know. Also, as Catacomb pointed out earlier, stores sell better leather armors.

A few remarks:

First of all; you need hides. This is fine for the low DC hides like wolf fur and animal skin, but when you want to go for the better stuff you need dire animals. Which means you're dependent on spawns. People regularly kill off those animals when they encounter them. So unlike the other crafts, where your only competition for resources comes from other crafters, you face competition from *all* players who kill animals.

For example: To get the best hides you need ancient dire bears. They live only at one place, as far as I know, and it needs to be at a pretty high spawn to find them. And that place gets visited by others as well who are not after hides. Which means you need luck to get a handful of hides (getting three hides, that can give a total of 18 patches if you pass the DC25 curing and boiling, is the best I got so far)

That means that the best hides ae pretty rare. Should you get them, and prepare them they turn out to be useless, property-wise: When boiled, grizzly patches become hard boiled patches. When you boil ancient dire bear patches, they become sturdy boiled patches. When you make an armor out of these the DC is 5 higher than with hardboiled patches but the end result is the same. So the only use they have is increasing DC to gain more CXP.

Aditionnally, all the pointing and clicking you have to do is giving me RSI. Because it is also boring as hell your eyes glaze over and your mind goes on standby which often results in buying something with a full inventory, removing the item from the merchant inventory until next resest. Fix this please!
But about all the clicking: First you need to buy tannine for ever hide. Then stuff hides and tannine in the curing basin. Use the knife once, open the basin, click on all the patches and use the knife again. Then you need to get wax, which means strolling to the beekeeper. You'll need 40-60 pieces, which involves a lot of clicking again. Luckily you can boil a lot of the skins at once. Basically, a lot of the time spent on crafting goes into the logistics of transferring stuff from inventory to container and back. This is not just boring, it gets annoying after a while. And it can be easily fixed.

Some suggestions for streamlining:
- Make tannine and beewax available at larger quantities than 1. Sell them also in sets of 10 or 25 or something
- Allow for bulk curing: toss in a whole set of hides, along with the apporiate amount of tannine and do it all at once. You're already going to do plenty of pointing and clicking to make the armors.

Earlier in this thread there were already some good suggestions to make leatherworking into a more useful craft. im going to quote them again for emphasis:

Gonna start throwing out suggestions for other bonuses that leathers could provide.

Wolf leather
+1 discipline
- 2 Tumble

Wolf leather is less flexible than other types of leather, resulting worse restriction on movement, but better support against blows.

Small animal fur (make it into it's own type called "thin leather", and have the DC be the same as using normal leather)
- 1 AC
+3 tumble
- 2 Discipline

Because small animals typically have thinner skin, armor made from them is much more flexible. This can be a good thing for dodging blows, but it also provides little to no support when an actual blow is struck.

Snakeskin
+2 Influence
+2 Antagonize

Wearing snakeskin armor draws the eye.  A person trying to persuade or bluff can benefit from the attention their armor draws.  In the same way a person can use the extra attention their armor draws to make themselves look completely arrogant and threatening.

Winter Wolf
10 Cold DR
+ 1 discipline
- 2 tumble

Extremely warm, winter wolf fur is superior to other cold weather leathers in that it's not any more flamable than normal wolf leather.

Dire (insert type)
10 cold DR
+ 2 discipline
+ 2 antagonize
- 4 tumble

A person wearing Dire leather armor is obvious.  The leahter is thick and impressive helping against the cold, helping to absorb hits, and even helping the wearing frighten off enemies.  Just don't expect to do any rolling in such furs.

Ancient dire bear
15 Cold
+ 3 discipline
+ 3 antagonize
- 5 tumble

Ancient dire bear hide is everything that dire hide is, only to a greater extreme.
 
Here are some alternatives for dire and ancient dire bear hides

Dire (insert type)
10 cold resist
- 1 AC
3 slashing DR

Dire leather is bulky, making a wearer easy to hit. Even so bladed weapons have a terrible time dealing with the thick leather.

Ancient Dire Bear
10 cold resist
- 1 AC
3 slashing DR
3 bludgeoning DR

Ancient Dire Bear leather is bulky, making a wearer easy to hit. Even so, blunt weaponry typically bounces off the the leather, and blades have a hard time slicing through.  Only piercing weapons are truely effective.

Could also have dire/ancient dire hide increase the items weight maybe.

Any sort of leather that gave bonuses to Move silently and or Hide would be vastly appreciated by the leatherworkers of the server, seeings as when I'm asked for leather armor about 75% of the time the person who asks wants stealthy leathers.

Now this is fun. Plenty of diversity and stuff that can be actually useful to. And its not already for sale in shops.


Would like to see some of the more.. exotic hides added but probably not on regular drop so they can be used as rare quest items.

Lycanthrope hides
Zombie Skin
Hides from the various player Races (obviously for those evil types... human hide padded armor?)

And like I said, not on regular drop. Would make great quest items or RP rewards.

Now this would be fun. Make 'Skinning' a third thing you can do with a corpse, other than mutilating and burning. This gives an item called <race> skin. The item can then be further processed with leatherworking. It might be impractical from a developers point of view but Hell it would rock!  :twisted:

Also, it already got suggested earlier in a different thread: It would be great to be able to craft other things than armors. I'd love to be able to make boots, gloves, belts and cloaks as well. Masks too.

To summarize:
In order to make leatherworking into a fun and useful skill it needs to be streamlined and expanded with more useful items that can be made.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: ethinos on January 06, 2008, 06:22:02 PM
*Performs thread necromancy!*

Well, I spent the last couple of days doing some leather working. So far it seems a bit pointless. None of the stuff you make is worth any money, not even DC34 studded leathers, which are the best you can make as far as I know. Also, as Catacomb pointed out earlier, stores sell better leather armors.

Its the same as smithing. You have to sell the armor to PC's to make any real profit. While stores sell leather armor with +1 across the board, they do not have any of the extra properties the various leathers can confer.

Quote
A few remarks:

First of all; you need hides. This is fine for the low DC hides like wolf fur and animal skin, but when you want to go for the better stuff you need dire animals. Which means you're dependent on spawns. People regularly kill off those animals when they encounter them. So unlike the other crafts, where your only competition for resources comes from other crafters, you face competition from *all* players who kill animals.

For example: To get the best hides you need ancient dire bears. They live only at one place, as far as I know, and it needs to be at a pretty high spawn to find them. And that place gets visited by others as well who are not after hides. Which means you need luck to get a handful of hides (getting three hides, that can give a total of 18 patches if you pass the DC25 curing and boiling, is the best I got so far)

That means that the best hides ae pretty rare. Should you get them, and prepare them they turn out to be useless, property-wise: When boiled, grizzly patches become hard boiled patches. When you boil ancient dire bear patches, they become sturdy boiled patches. When you make an armor out of these the DC is 5 higher than with hardboiled patches but the end result is the same. So the only use they have is increasing DC to gain more CXP.

The silver mines have loads of dire animals, sometimes ancient dire bears too. And this doesn't include the spots in the mountains where bears spawn. Also, I don't see why the spawn thing is relevant. You need animals, and they vary on spawn. If you need skins and are worried they'll get disregarded due to overzealous hunters, put up a notice to purchase them.

Also, I find it odd that sturdy boiled leather patches do the same as hard boiled. Maybe its an oversight. It's basically the steel equivalent in leather working. *shrugs*

Quote
Aditionnally, all the pointing and clicking you have to do is giving me RSI. Because it is also boring as hell your eyes glaze over and your mind goes on standby which often results in buying something with a full inventory, removing the item from the merchant inventory until next resest. Fix this please!
But about all the clicking: First you need to buy tannine for ever hide. Then stuff hides and tannine in the curing basin. Use the knife once, open the basin, click on all the patches and use the knife again. Then you need to get wax, which means strolling to the beekeeper. You'll need 40-60 pieces, which involves a lot of clicking again. Luckily you can boil a lot of the skins at once. Basically, a lot of the time spent on crafting goes into the logistics of transferring stuff from inventory to container and back. This is not just boring, it gets annoying after a while. And it can be easily fixed.

Some suggestions for streamlining:
- Make tannine and beewax available at larger quantities than 1. Sell them also in sets of 10 or 25 or something
- Allow for bulk curing: toss in a whole set of hides, along with the apporiate amount of tannine and do it all at once. You're already going to do plenty of pointing and clicking to make the armors.

I'll admit, leatherworking is the most aggravating of the 3 crafts. A 'jar of honey' or maybe a 'barrel of tannin' might be nice alternatives.

Quote
Earlier in this thread there were already some good suggestions to make leatherworking into a more useful craft. im going to quote them again for emphasis:

Quote
Now this is fun. Plenty of diversity and stuff that can be actually useful to. And its not already for sale in shops.

Note that all those leathers would also be available to smiths making metal armor. Personally, I think we could use a few more leathers that have bonuses, but some of the recommendations are a bit... extreme or illogical.


Quote
Now this would be fun. Make 'Skinning' a third thing you can do with a corpse, other than mutilating and burning. This gives an item called <race> skin. The item can then be further processed with leatherworking. It might be impractical from a developers point of view but Hell it would rock!  :twisted:

Also, it already got suggested earlier in a different thread: It would be great to be able to craft other things than armors. I'd love to be able to make boots, gloves, belts and cloaks as well. Masks too.

To summarize:
In order to make leatherworking into a fun and useful skill it needs to be streamlined and expanded with more useful items that can be made.

It would be nice to have the extra items that we can make, gauntlets, helms, boots, etc. However, I'd like to leave the whole skinning of strange creatures alone. If you want to make something truly unique, ask a DM to make a quest of it. We already have zombie hide armor, cloaks and fur armor made of werewolves, etc. Its nice if the truly strange things are left as options in the loot tables or for DM quests.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: failed.bard on January 06, 2008, 10:30:29 PM
  I haven't gotten far enough along in leatherworking to try any of the dires for armour, but aren't they supposed to give the benefits based on the unboiled patches?  It seems like boiled bear hide would be the same as boiled dire bear hide, would be the same as... Et cetera.

  Then again, all my RL experience is with metal, not leather, so I'm just guessing there.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: ethinos on January 06, 2008, 10:35:40 PM
Boiling removes all the bonuses the leather would've provided. The boiled leather provides the primary ingredient needed for armor. The unboiled patches, the secondary ingredients, still provide the bonuses as normal.

Dire and other things make hard boiled patches which provide better protection, AC-wise.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: flamedance58 on January 06, 2008, 10:43:09 PM
Well I'm gonna burn some mana towards the necromantic ritual to keep this thread up.

I am starting out as a newbie.
Alot of people know that.
And the first thing I want to do is get something to sink my teeth into.
Leatherworking.

All I needed to do was have Briareos who's hunter/explorer go out, hunt some deers, wolves, badgers, minks.
Go back and blah blah blah....

But after going through this post and talking to several people about leatherworking, and from my own experiences...Leather is turning more and more into a fluff craft.
By no means am I saying that the DM made it on purpose...but without anything worth making at even the later levels there isn't much of a drive in me left to do anything more than the now strategy of Kill-Skin-Cure-Sell.

*goes off with a hatch and hunts some Elms*
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: ethinos on January 06, 2008, 11:45:17 PM
The thing is, ultimately, without enchanting, leather can only do so much. Metal will always protect better. :?
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Mcskinns on January 07, 2008, 03:06:46 AM
The thing is, ultimately, without enchanting, leather can only do so much. Metal will always protect better. :?

As far as the various trade crafts go, I definitely agree Leatherworking needs the most attention, followed by Woodworking...

What might improve the attractiveness of the trade would be to add something minor to the end result...

With Metalsmithing you recieve the benefits of the leathers used as lining and bindings for the various parts.  Items crafted fully from leather offer new opportunites for the material to shine, as the covering of bulky heavy metal hides some of the leathers natural appeal.

With this in mind, I think it might be nice to give leather armors a minor special trait when formed from various furs.  Though this could interfere with the plans for Enchanting down the line, its worth mention.

I would also love to see new templates for the non-smithing crafts.  But first, lets offer up some ideas for what could be added to the leather properties based on leathers used. 

Plain Leather - no modifiers as this is the staple mundane item

Bear Fur/Leather -
Quote from: http://www.americanbear.org/FUR.htm
A bear's fur consists of two types of hair - the underfur and the outer guard hairs.  The underfur is soft and dense and serves primarily as an insulator.  The outer guard hairs are much thicker, longer and coarser.  While they also insulate, they serve to protect the body from foreign objects such as dirt, debris and insects.  They also repel water - when a bear emerges from a lake or creek, it will shake just like a dog, dispelling the water from its coat and leaving it practically dry.
From this I could see having items made from Thick Leather Patches to possess any of the following properties....  cold resist 5/-, +1 Fort Save, +1 AC vs Slashing....   offset this with added weight due to the double layer of fur or an increase in Arcane Spell Failure due to thickness.


Crag Cat Fur/Leather -  Cat fur varies widely, but Crag Fur is likely very warm to endure the higher elevations.  As such, I'd propose bumping up the Cold Resistance to 10/- but adding a 25% Vulnerability to Electricity to offset the static nature of the fur.

Snakeskin - no added warmth from these skins, but perhaps a Vulnerability to Cold as well as a -5 Arcane Spell Failure to reflect the flexibility and thinness of the material?

I know there are other furs, maybe some ideas for those, or better ideas for these could provoke something among the Dev's to get things rolling in the Leatherworking Department. 

There would need to be different properties as well for items such as belts, cloaks, and gloves.  A lot of potential for low impacting bonuses to the various furs used, hopefully without ruining the Enchanting to come down the line.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Dreaderick on January 07, 2008, 03:30:06 AM

Quote
A few remarks:

First of all; you need hides. This is fine for the low DC hides like wolf fur and animal skin, but when you want to go for the better stuff you need dire animals. Which means you're dependent on spawns. People regularly kill off those animals when they encounter them. So unlike the other crafts, where your only competition for resources comes from other crafters, you face competition from *all* players who kill animals.

For example: To get the best hides you need ancient dire bears. They live only at one place, as far as I know, and it needs to be at a pretty high spawn to find them. And that place gets visited by others as well who are not after hides. Which means you need luck to get a handful of hides (getting three hides, that can give a total of 18 patches if you pass the DC25 curing and boiling, is the best I got so far)

That means that the best hides ae pretty rare. Should you get them, and prepare them they turn out to be useless, property-wise: When boiled, grizzly patches become hard boiled patches. When you boil ancient dire bear patches, they become sturdy boiled patches. When you make an armor out of these the DC is 5 higher than with hardboiled patches but the end result is the same. So the only use they have is increasing DC to gain more CXP.

The silver mines have loads of dire animals, sometimes ancient dire bears too. And this doesn't include the spots in the mountains where bears spawn. Also, I don't see why the spawn thing is relevant. You need animals, and they vary on spawn. If you need skins and are worried they'll get disregarded due to overzealous hunters, put up a notice to purchase them.

Also, I find it odd that sturdy boiled leather patches do the same as hard boiled. Maybe its an oversight. It's basically the steel equivalent in leather working. *shrugs*

The spawn thing is relevant because it influences availability. In other crafts, resources are either available or they aren't. And those are only targeted by people interested in the craft.


Quote
Quote
It would be nice to have the extra items that we can make, gauntlets, helms, boots, etc. However, I'd like to leave the whole skinning of strange creatures alone. If you want to make something truly unique, ask a DM to make a quest of it. We already have zombie hide armor, cloaks and fur armor made of werewolves, etc. Its nice if the truly strange things are left as options in the loot tables or for DM quests.

The more strange skins would become useful once enchanting gets implemented. And before that it is just plain fun to get the occasional weird hide, even without any special stats to it.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: flamedance58 on January 07, 2008, 03:48:43 AM
I'll honestly say I have no idea how the enchanting system is going to work, but it seems alot of people are saying it's going to be like a second coming of christ.
I don't see how having to be able to cast magic or have some magical power is going to help leatherworkers who don't use magic, or are people who come from Vallkil or wherever...

The point I think was that the leathers we can MAKE, not from a combination of two crafts, but from ONE craft are no where near as useful or plausible to use less you don't have a choice.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Delphinidae on March 17, 2008, 05:47:15 PM
This is mostly feedback on my experience with leathers:

Given the selection of varying pelts we have, I would like for some variety. Basically, all pelts can be divided into three color catagories:



Brown gives no added effects, white always gives cold resist and fire vulnerability and gray negative energy protection. I would like a little variation at least in the white leathers section. For example the white stag hides. White stag horns give +1 vs Undead, yet the pelts only give cold resistence like any other crag cat/winter wolf/elder wolf. Can't at least the white stag pelt give +1 AC against undead? I mean, if the horns give +1 AB, the pelt should reflect it a bit. I'd love if winter wolves or dire crag cat gave better cold resist. Okay, I'll settle on winter wolves.

———

It would be nice to have Dire leathers combinations—Primary ingredient boiled hard leather (originally a dire wolf leather before boiling) , secondary ingredient dire crag cat leather—give better things as opposed to the Hard leather/soft leather combination: Hard boiled leather + regular crag cat in this example. The hard leather and regular crag cat gives us cold resist 5/- and 25% fire damage vulnerability.

I'd like if hard boiled and dire combinations gave something slightly better like 10/- and 50% fire damage vulnerability to balance the 10 damage resistence. DC could even go higher to make creating such leathers available to those with really high levels in crafting. In the case of worg, raise it to +3 or +4 improved saving throws against negative energy. I know the 10 cold resist is looked upon as too good, but it's a real shame that dire crag cats pelts give the same stats as regular crag cats. Dire versions are supposed to stronger than the regular ones.

———

Using thick fur leather patches should work differently than crag cat/winter wolf/elder wolf. It has the same properties. Since hard boiled armors are giving us +1 AC vs Slashing and Blungeon, how about +1 vs piercing?

And snakeskin in leathers should give something or be useable at least. You currently can't use them for light armors, but can for heavy armors. Even if it's just a color change of the armor.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: k_moustakas on March 18, 2008, 03:17:11 AM
Being an almost full time leatherworker myself, I can only agree with everything that's been said.

You can't imagine how excited I was to find a winter wolf, only to find out that I shouldn't have bothered!
I just found out about the ancient dire bears. I mean... damn man! And thank god that I didn't find any white stags

Give us a hand! Right now I am a level 7 leatherworker and apparently, as I can make hard worg armor, I've reached the pinnacle of my craft?

Gonna move into smithing, +1 armor / +2 negative saves sure as hell doesn't beat +1 vs shapeshifters +1d6 slashing damage.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: kenpen on March 18, 2008, 03:27:03 AM
I carried around the first ancient dire bear hide (one Sadek gave me) for FOREVER, waiting to be able to use it.

I feel your pain. ;)
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Delphinidae on March 22, 2008, 12:47:22 PM
Another thing that I've noticed is that leathers only get +1 AC versus slashing and piercing, as opposed to straight +1 AC. There's also no weight reduction like with the smithing system, unless in both cases I'm missing out on a certain receipe to do this.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on March 22, 2008, 01:33:35 PM
I still want gloves, boots, and belts.

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Ryltar/ Robert Archer on March 22, 2008, 01:39:39 PM
I still want gloves, boots, and belts.

~Rex


agreed
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Helaman on March 22, 2008, 04:02:13 PM
Ditto
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Ric on March 22, 2008, 08:43:32 PM
I was really dissappointed with the productions of leatherworking on my leahter-bearing character, since it was more effective to just buy +1 bracers and not have to deal with the clunky armor that adds fire vulnerability while he already has heels of andral.

Definetely need the suggestions Rex added, and perhaps some weight reduction and actual +1 AC opposed to single types like Delphi pointed out.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: failed.bard on March 22, 2008, 11:14:26 PM
A template to allow the making of clothes out of various hides would be nice as well.  With all the casters on the server, leatherworkers would get more work making high quality robes and outfits then they ever will making leather armour.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on March 23, 2008, 01:49:22 AM
Leather working got the most shafting out of any of the crafting detail, but I think I will expand on that in another thread.  Granted though bear in mind I am used to a Far more detailed Crafting system that really pulled out all the stops.

It just seems though, that it would be better if it would "improve" on the same scale the metalic stuff does, Much less weight, MS, H bonuses and such.  Not to mention, Gloves, Boots, Cloaks (Though Cloaks and robes seem more Tailorish then Leather working to me) etc etc etc .........

Still, work in progress I guess.

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: k_moustakas on March 27, 2008, 04:28:17 AM
Just wait a minute!

You mean to tell me now that I've finally found a white stag that it's hide is the same as a craig cat?!?

BOOOOOOOO
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on March 27, 2008, 05:25:34 AM
You can do different stuff with it's antlers though I think.

Might just be another Hard Tease though.  Like Snake Skin.  :D

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: k_moustakas on March 27, 2008, 07:38:45 AM
BOOOOOO

I say.

I know about the antlers. But *see bowmaking thread* I'm moving into smithing until ancient dire bears and white stag skins do something!

BOOO!

Silver gilded weapons I say

BO again
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Helaman on March 27, 2008, 07:55:33 AM
Does that mean I've lost a customer?
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Delphinidae on March 27, 2008, 04:47:05 PM
Right now, I don't want more features such as boots and belts and gloves. Too many features and you'll lose track of what needs modifying in the current system. Current system has one of the largest selections of patches I've ever seen, but all these don't really add for much variety. I mean, crag cat, mink, musk ox, winter wolf, white stag, cave wolves and the dire crag cat all give the same cold resistence. Worg is the only type of leather that gives negative energy protection. And that's basically it on special properties such as cold and negative energy. Base patches are made from deer, wolf, scravyt, otter, badger, meaning regular leathers. The stronger patches come from bears—hard boiled leathers—, which give only +1 AC to blungeon and slashing. And if you manage to cuir an ancient dire bear, you get sturdy leather patches, but these have the same properties as the hard leather ones. If the sturdy ones gave +1 AC to all, it would seriously be a plus since getting them—aka finding an ancient dire and killing it—, tanning then and boiling them isn't easy.

I really think some of the white patches category should give something better than 5/- cold resistence. I insist white stag can give +1 AC vs undead, and dire's better saves. It's not like white stag are so common to obtain, and getting ancient dire bear and dire crag cat isn't easy either.

What I would like to see is some better cold resist on the leathers. I don't know why a metal armor has the same cold resistence as a leather armor. Leathers should be warmer than metals. Especialy if we consider the think fur patches that can be crafted. It could be as McSkinns said, higher cold resist and electrical vulnerabilty. If higher cold resist isn't possible due to game balance, how about something like improved saving throws versus cold, like the mountaineer's masks?
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on March 27, 2008, 04:58:07 PM
Cold resistant Items Stacking would be nice, and provide an easy glove/boot option for leather workers.

As for those folks that would stack to the stupid levels of being able to wade through White Dragon Breath, simply have them ROAST to death in warm or not Arctic environments.

Would be interesting watching a bunch of people have to take Layers Off to keep from dying of heat prostration much like how they try and put layers on to keep from freezing.  In general though even if such were not to be the case, a NICE option for the Leather and Fur workers would be an increase in items that provide saving throws, and better Anti Cold gear.

And Bags.  Those of us used to the Military and even Camping styles know that a well packed and organized Pack allows one the effect of less encumbrance while carrying even more weight.

Even if it is for a 4am 5 mile run in the rain with the Gunny screaming at you to hold your weapon right.

~Rex

Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: k_moustakas on March 27, 2008, 06:04:35 PM
This will be probably my last post on this topic for a while, as all I have to say really is BOOO lol

Sorry If I'm repetitive it's not my intention. Nor to be annoying.

All I wanna say is I totally agree with Delphinidae on *all* her points. No need for boots or cloaks yet. Just let your stuff do something exciting

Like +1 vs undead and +1d6 ftw damage! BOOOOO!

(Helaman: you haven't lost a customer, it's just that I can't get the silver yet. Plus i'm broke)
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Ravenous on March 28, 2008, 08:13:02 AM
I to agree with Delphy..

After I managed to cure Ancient Dire Bears and boil em(Sturdy leather) I was thrilled since I thought it would be something cool, lets say I was greatly disappointed when the result was the same as the MUCH easier Hard Boiled.. I expected +2 AC vs Slashing and Bludgeoning(or whatever it is) and got well +1 vs it..
It was disappointing..The system is great but severely lacking in variety... The exact same armor can go from DC 24 to 34, no change in stats..
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on March 28, 2008, 03:00:50 PM
I miss Haze's CNR.  :(

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: failed.bard on March 29, 2008, 12:03:32 AM
  In a way, I don't want to see magic weapon/armour crafting implemented, but higher DC specialty items.  Something like dire ancient bear plus white stag giving +1/+2 vs undead, snakeskin giving +2 poison saves, and the like.

  Off topic, the other crafts need similar "uber" items, like a way to do +2 AB vs undead, and +3 vs outsiders.  It would cut down the dependence on magic, and allow native characters to play the fear of magic without being horribly gimped in doing so.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on March 29, 2008, 01:56:04 AM
  In a way, I don't want to see magic weapon/armour crafting implemented, but higher DC specialty items.  Something like dire ancient bear plus white stag giving +1/+2 vs undead, snakeskin giving +2 poison saves, and the like.

  Off topic, the other crafts need similar "uber" items, like a way to do +2 AB vs undead, and +3 vs outsiders.  It would cut down the dependence on magic, and allow native characters to play the fear of magic without being horribly gimped in doing so.

Right but being able to make a REAL magic weapon, a Legit Item even in a low magic setting, does away with the problem of people hauling around a BOATLOAD of equipment.

I don't understand the fear of a Real +1 or +2 Item, when the place allready has piles of things that add up to Gigantic bonuses to Skills.  Besides, those things take tons of resources and gathering such is an adventure unto themselves.

In Leather Making for Example, Look at what you get that "seems Unique"  Dire Wolf Fur, Worg Fur, Dire Bear Skins, Winter Wolf, Various Snakes, (should be an evil option for Human Skin).   Sure there are more once you factor in White Stag and all that jazz.

Just seems a shame, that most of these Unique things, many hard to come buy, or downright leathel to come buy, End up doing the same thing or nothing, for even more effort to fiddle with the stuff.

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Mcskinns on March 29, 2008, 02:14:29 AM

Just seems a shame, that most of these Unique things, many hard to come buy, or downright leathel to come buy, End up doing the same thing or nothing, for even more effort to fiddle with the stuff.

~Rex


I was told a long time back that the various furs would produce "unique" properties when the enchanting was added.  Thus what might seem similar now, could have unknown benefits later.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on March 29, 2008, 02:37:53 AM

Just seems a shame, that most of these Unique things, many hard to come buy, or downright leathel to come buy, End up doing the same thing or nothing, for even more effort to fiddle with the stuff.

~Rex


I was told a long time back that the various furs would produce "unique" properties when the enchanting was added.  Thus what might seem similar now, could have unknown benefits later.

True that.  Should be interesting when it hits.

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: k_moustakas on April 14, 2008, 06:22:16 AM
Hey, bumping this so the devs don't think we have forgotten.

We want improved leatherworking!

-Leading the tanner/leatherworker complain parade with a sign that reads*I want ancient dire bear to do something other than sell it for 90 gold*-
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on April 14, 2008, 01:32:51 PM
Hey, bumping this so the devs don't think we have forgotten.

We want improved leatherworking!

-Leading the tanner/leatherworker complain parade with a sign that reads*I want ancient dire bear to do something other than sell it for 90 gold*-

* Watches as the Devs Set up the Ancient Dire Bears to have 12 levels of Monk on top of their Animal Stats and 10 points of Piercing/Blunt/and Slashing Resistance*  There you go, they can now do something other then sell for 90 gold!  :twisted:

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: k_moustakas on April 14, 2008, 05:07:30 PM
Chances are, someone will actually manage to kill one, manage to cure it, manage to boil, make the umber +1 vs slashing and piercing weapons hard leather armor, came back here and post

BOOOO

lol
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on April 15, 2008, 11:17:06 AM
Chances are, someone will actually manage to kill one, manage to cure it, manage to boil, make the umber +1 vs slashing and piercing weapons hard leather armor, came back here and post

BOOOO

lol

Don't forget Dragon's skin makes Hide Armor too.

Dragonhide

Armorsmiths can work with the hides of dragons to produce armor or shields of masterwork quality. One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a small or large masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger.

Because dragonhide armor isn’t made of metal, druids can wear it without penalty.

Dragonhide armor costs double what masterwork armor of that type ordinarily costs, but it takes no longer to make than ordinary armor of that type.

Dragonhide has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 10.



~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: k_moustakas on June 07, 2008, 01:05:50 PM
Hey! Maybe now that herbalism is in, we could do something to poor old leatherworking?

Like make ancient dire bear hide do something or white stag or... *gasp* Dragonhide dc 50 armor yeah!
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on June 07, 2008, 02:26:57 PM
Need Dragon for Dragon Hide.

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: k_moustakas on June 07, 2008, 07:14:54 PM
we got one:D And I tell you, it will be marvelous armor +2 and +4 to hide/move silently *winks*
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on June 07, 2008, 08:42:10 PM
Won't work.  What it takes to kill that dragon is roughly equal to a tactical nuclear device, and the Hide has to be in GOOD or Better shape.

Basic Shadow Dragon NwN set up:

Stats: (out of bioware site....some really nice pictures to btw)

Level: Dragon 31
Hit Points: 387
Armour Class: 42
Abilities: Str 31, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 28, Wis 28, Cha 29
CR: 22
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Special Abilities: Breath Weapon: Negative Energy

Description

Many, many layers of oil-black evil coat this vilest of the living dragons. So baby-seal taunting evil is the shadow dragon that prancing do-gooders simply detonate in a shower of law-abiding fragments within 30 feet of this foul wyrm. If you thought your shiny sword and bulls-eye lantern would protect you from the monsters in the dark, think again. It's not the monsters in the dark you need to fear, it's the darkness itself.

Also:

Shadow dragon

    * Breath weapon: Energy-draining shadows
    * Terrain: Underground
    * Alignment: Always Chaotic evil
    * Notes: Shadow dragons are the second most intelligent evil dragons.
    * Appears in: Monsters of Faerűn and reprinted in the Draconomicon; enemy in Baldur's Gate 2. A shadow dragon called Shimmergloom is the ruler of a clan of Duergar in the second book of the Icewind Dale Trilogy, "Streams of Silver".

If it has to be splatterd with like 500000 hitpoints worth of spell damage to whack it, don't think there is going to be anything left to make armor out of.

~Rex

Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: k_moustakas on June 20, 2008, 12:30:22 PM
So... what would happen to the wolf that gets criticalled for 104 damage when it has 13 hp? Just asking :ppPpPpP

Chill out man! This is a game. And we want shadow dragon armor yay!
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: ethinos on June 20, 2008, 06:38:08 PM
What happens to that wolf upon such an uber-crit? Easy.

The skin automatically peels itself from the corpse of the wolf, and folds itself up in a nice, easy-to-carry package on the ground in front of you. :twisted:
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on June 20, 2008, 08:45:23 PM
I suppose the point I was getting at is that it would be nice, if there was a chance you did not always GET a hide from a slain animal.  Ask any real Hunter, sometimes, you just Wreck the critter.

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: failed.bard on June 20, 2008, 11:41:57 PM
I'd like to see it where animals killed with certain spells, fire and acid especially, didn't leave hides.  Wilhelm might even stop fireball hunting if that happened.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on June 21, 2008, 12:16:55 AM
I'd like to see it where animals killed with certain spells, fire and acid especially, didn't leave hides.  Wilhelm might even stop fireball hunting if that happened.

A very GOOD point.

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: archonzero on July 01, 2008, 09:06:21 PM
  Is there any place that offers a guide, book or recipes to follow for leatherworking?  At the moment Aleski only tells ya the gibberish he currently spouts which is only vaguely useful and not really much.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Delphinidae on July 02, 2008, 12:11:41 AM
Nope. You need a mentor. Sadly, Danielle/Claire and Okaris are gone from this world. I think Torgan was getting into it. It's not hard at all, just frustrating and a shame that all the variety really boils down to two types of armors.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: failed.bard on July 02, 2008, 07:24:47 AM
Dribo did a bit of leather working, but Rell asked her to stop making things out of dead kitties, so she doesn't do it anymore.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: KoopaFanatic on July 02, 2008, 09:20:43 AM
Mariska is a pretty competent leatherworker, and has talked more than a few people through the process.  Most of them got bored and gave up, though ;)
If you're still looking, feel free to track me down in-game and we can talk recipes.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on July 03, 2008, 12:40:32 AM
They get bored because it does so little.  Now, if it could make Bags that dropped encumbrance a little (not at the level of the real magic ones but a bit much like the real deal), boots (fur boots, that sort of thing), fur cloaks, stuff like that, as well as tying in some things to the OTHER trades, such as animal Gut for bow strings, ligaments for various composite parts, leather for scabbards and sword hilts.  It would be more useful and a few leagues less boring.

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: failed.bard on July 03, 2008, 07:41:37 AM
It was also be interesting if the leather backings for the metal armours took a leatherworking roll to attach to the template, before the real metal worknig could begin.  Possibly even, if you had to takes a suit of appropriately made padded armour or leather armour as part of the requirements, instead of just throwing patches on the anvil and hammering them into place.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: KoopaFanatic on July 03, 2008, 07:43:55 AM
Oh, fully agreed.  I was really bummed to find out that it was limited to three kinds of armor, with a limited pool of special abilities to work from.  It would also be nice if there were a kind of leather that gave stealth bonuses, or was lighter, and so on.  Personally I'd prefer a wider variety of templates in addition or instead.  But that's been argued to death at this point.  Suffice to say I wasn't questioning why people gave up on the craft, though.
Thankfully it's at least relatively cheap.   :D
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on July 03, 2008, 06:19:47 PM
Actually a significant portion of Armor of ANY level, is leather and padding.  You need something to hold everything together, mount metal to, and fluff it all up.  A good option would be to add more PARTS, to leather making to be used as part of the Smith trade.  Little inter trade support there.

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: archonzero on July 03, 2008, 08:15:18 PM
  There's a crafting trade on Arelith.  Only for example.  That requires smiths forming heavy armor sets to acquire leather torso's for part of the process.  I thought that was a really neat way to cross blend the needs between crafting systems.  Though.. the torso was something provided for by the Tailoring profession and not the Leatherworker.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: penny on July 03, 2008, 10:41:37 PM
Yep, most of the more complex crafting stuff on Arelith requires stuff from other trades.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Zarathustra217 on July 04, 2008, 08:37:01 AM
Has any of you ever tried to boil the leather from ancient dire bears? Should produce a different result that other dire animals.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on July 04, 2008, 10:49:25 AM
  There's a crafting trade on Arelith.  Only for example.  That requires smiths forming heavy armor sets to acquire leather torso's for part of the process.  I thought that was a really neat way to cross blend the needs between crafting systems.  Though.. the torso was something provided for by the Tailoring profession and not the Leatherworker.

Yeah but the tailors get the leather from the leather workers right?  Been awhile since I've played Arelith but I always liked their Crafting set up.

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Zarathustra217 on July 04, 2008, 10:54:22 AM
Smiths require leather from the leatherworkers here even to make heavy armour.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: failed.bard on July 04, 2008, 11:07:34 AM
  Most smiths use worg, and the DC is low enough on that they can do it themselves.  I may have to try some of the dires, though.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on July 04, 2008, 11:22:18 AM
Yeah getting the leather patch is pretty simple really.  Not really the same thing as having to get a more detailed piece of leather work like a full blown mounting form.  Maybe a good idea would be to work it up so that the Leather guys can Make the Templates for the Armor, since leather and such is a vital component for any armor production.

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: KoopaFanatic on July 04, 2008, 11:34:44 AM
  Most smiths use worg, and the DC is low enough on that they can do it themselves.  I may have to try some of the dires, though.

And even if the smiths don't want to bother themselves, it seems most people just cure the leather for the moderate bump in sale price to Murnu, which means a lazy smith can just pick up patches there.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on July 04, 2008, 11:36:30 AM
  Most smiths use worg, and the DC is low enough on that they can do it themselves.  I may have to try some of the dires, though.

And even if the smiths don't want to bother themselves, it seems most people just cure the leather for the moderate bump in sale price to Murnu, which means a lazy smith can just pick up patches there.

Usually by the hundred count.

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: penny on July 04, 2008, 02:52:47 PM

Yeah but the tailors get the leather from the leather workers right?  Been awhile since I've played Arelith but I always liked their Crafting set up.

~Rex


Nope, on Arelith, tailoring covers leathermaking and .. tailoring.

The only problem with Arelith's system is that it runs on crafting points, which you gain per level. So basically you have to go out and farm to be good at your trade(s). Plus, you can only craft a certain amount per day. Ravenloft's crafting is more tedious but realistic at least.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: k_moustakas on July 04, 2008, 03:14:13 PM
To soren: Unless it has been changed, you did get a different boiled patch but making an armor from it had the same result.

Of course, this was back when okaris was alive.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Ryltar/ Robert Archer on July 04, 2008, 03:19:47 PM
one thing i always thought would be a better idea but i suppose is moot now is this

that armor smiths have to start with leather working and amor makign then once at say lvl 10 of leatherworking can make a underarmor leather suit for the metal armors instead of having them seperate and honestly this way would be more realistic then the way it is now with the template then smashing in leather into place sure its far more work but it encourages inter craft dealing and rp thoughts?
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on July 04, 2008, 11:58:56 PM
one thing i always thought would be a better idea but i suppose is moot now is this

that armor smiths have to start with leather working and amor makign then once at say lvl 10 of leatherworking can make a underarmor leather suit for the metal armors instead of having them seperate and honestly this way would be more realistic then the way it is now with the template then smashing in leather into place sure its far more work but it encourages inter craft dealing and rp thoughts?

Or just set it up so that making Templates is a High End option for Leather workers.

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: failed.bard on July 05, 2008, 12:16:04 AM
one thing i always thought would be a better idea but i suppose is moot now is this

that armor smiths have to start with leather working and amor makign then once at say lvl 10 of leatherworking can make a underarmor leather suit for the metal armors instead of having them seperate and honestly this way would be more realistic then the way it is now with the template then smashing in leather into place sure its far more work but it encourages inter craft dealing and rp thoughts?

Or just set it up so that making Templates is a High End option for Leather workers.

~Rex


  I like this idea as well, though it might end up having to be a backing template, plus an armour form you add to the anvil still.

  It always seemed to me that the templates for all the metal working things should be used on the smelter, not the anvil.  Then the anvil used to turn it from a crude, unworked, roughly shaped item into a finished product.

  Unfortunately, both of these would require an extra transitional item and more scripting to be done for every item affected.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Rex on July 05, 2008, 04:19:38 PM
I'm used to a crafting system that gets to the point where you are gathering material to make Molds and Casts, which included originally, making the different tools for tinkering like smithing, and armoring/weapon type smithing, and even, the different anvils though they backed off on that one because they didn't want piles of people setting up anvils everywhere.

Adding a few more steps to a recipe would take care of a lot of that gigantic speed bump between rookie and master.

~Rex
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Ric on July 06, 2008, 04:10:07 PM
Are there any plans for new recipes?  I'd like to see things like stealth-properties & weight reduction added to leatherworking.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Zarathustra217 on July 06, 2008, 04:18:27 PM
Are there any plans for new recipes?  I'd like to see things like stealth-properties & weight reduction added to leatherworking.

Yes, we are discussing them currently. If anyone has any ideas of non-epic recipes based on monsters we currently have in the module and with sensible effects that don't surpass what can be found on items in the module, please feel free to suggest them here :)
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: DM Shadowspawn on July 06, 2008, 04:30:14 PM
Fire Beetle Hide - 5dr fire. perhaps with +25% increase vrs cold.

Shadow Crag Cat hide granting Hide/MS bonus of +2 to +4.

Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: kenpen on July 06, 2008, 05:06:13 PM
Bodak teeth - 1d4 Negative energy damage arrows
Coldstones - 1d4 Cold Damage Arrows

Dread Treants - Some sort of Neg Energy bows/clubs/staves ('cept, have to fix the staff/club templates, which still don't work.)
                    - Also, Neg energy absorbing armor for druids/rangers maybe

The ability to make wooden armors would also be nice.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: failed.bard on July 06, 2008, 10:38:14 PM
Mink :  +2 influence, -4 antagonize in addition to the normal cold dr, fire vulnerability.
Snakeskin : poison save +2
Vampire Teeth would be interesting for arrows of wounding.

It would be nice if the hellcats, hellhounds, and nessian warhounds dropped hides that cold do fire dr 5, 25% cold vuln, but that's not what you're asking for right now.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: EO on July 07, 2008, 12:02:33 AM
Remember that the properties shouldn't be too powerful and in line with what the base animal / creature is. Also, feel free to include creatures that do not currently drop hides, but may do so (that excludes shadow creatures since those are made of..shadows usually or incorporeal creatures).
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: KoopaFanatic on July 07, 2008, 12:54:56 AM
I don't think any of these would qualify as "epic," but they'd definitely warrant a high crafting DC.

Ferret Hide --> Ferret Leather Patch = Hide/Move Silently bonus (I'd say it should be mink, but they're too common.  Ferrets are rare enough to deserve their own effect.)
Spider Silk Gland --> Spider Silk Patch = 40% weight reduction, -1 AC vs. piercing attacks
Wolfwere Hide -->--> Boiled Wolfwere Leather Patch = DR 2/silver, -1 AC vs. shapechangers
Crab Carapace -->--> Boiled Crab Carapace Segment = +1 AC vs. slashing attacks, -2 reflex save

It would be nice if some of the animals that give the usual cold DR/fire vulnerability had different effects.  Razorback, for instance, and especially white stag.

Another idea is to have the rags and bolts of cloth that sometimes appear in loot be useable in place of the boiled leather patches to make normal "clothing" rather than armor that bears the soft leather patches' effects.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Thoraion on July 07, 2008, 06:37:31 AM
Ferret Hide --> Ferret Leather Patch = Hide/Move Silently bonus (I'd say it should be mink, but they're too common.  Ferrets are rare enough to deserve their own effect.)
Weasels as well

If you include white weasels during winter, the fur might give a bonus to influence and/or appraise. 'Maybe same property for crag cats and white stags

I would not recommend a bonus vs. poison with snake skin - but maybe a bonus to move silently. Same for any kind of cat's fur, but in height depending on the CR
Shadow fiends and shadow crag cats seem to be a likely source for something granting a bonus on hide checks.

Beetle parts and crab carapaces may be a source for some kind of scale mail with reduced weight and drastically reduced armour check penalty, but also with a decreases AC.

Demon hide may be a source for leather granting DR
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: KoopaFanatic on July 07, 2008, 10:11:31 AM
I think snakeskin would also be a good candidate for a weight reduction effect.  As someone mentioned upthread (or maybe in a different thread -- can't find it right now) prepared snakeskin is a remarkably tough leather, but it's also very light weight for that toughness.

A bonus vs. poison might be more appropriate on one of the more fanciful creature types.  Maybe a gargoyle or hook horror hide, or a sword spider or Ghakis spider carapace.

Speaking of Ghakis, there are yetis up there, right?  How about a yeti hide giving a stronger cold DR than what you get from other hides?  (Though skinning and wearing something that human-like might be a bit much for some people.  Me included, now that I think about it.)

Supposedly ostrich leather is really strong and supple.  Maybe some sort of large bird could drop a hide that gives a move silently bonus.  (I tend to ignore birds unless I'm really desperate to tame an animal, so I don't know what's out there and larger/rarer than vista chiri and ravens.)

A few times I've seen a non-tannable tiger hide item at Murnu's.  This could be added to the leatherworking menu with a bonus to influence (because tiger is just so neat looking ;)

It's a shame we don't have any acquatic monsters.  Ray and sharkskin would be good candidates for a partial AC bonus (pierce/slash, maybe) with a move silently penalty.  Eelskin could give DR vs. electricity.  (Yes, I know eelskin isn't actually made from electric eels, but it'd be too perfect to pass up.)


On the woodworking front, I really like the idea of bodak and vampire teeth giving bonuses when used as arrowheads.  How about doing something similar for the large bones dropped by some undead?  They could be used as arrow shafts, and give a +1 damage bonus vs. humaniods and animals, -1 damage penalty vs./ undead.  Or instead they could be an "antler" for use in composite bows, giving an attack bonus vs. humanoids and animals and an attack penalty vs. undead.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: KoopaFanatic on July 10, 2008, 02:26:11 PM
Just stumbled across a good animal to give a hide/move silently bonus:  there's a dark-furred wolf (name starts with an S) in the lower level of the Dvergeheim mines that drops a wolf pelt when it dies.  Maybe this critter's hide could be used to replicate the late, lamented shadow armor.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Badbelly on July 10, 2008, 05:11:54 PM
I would like to see attributes increase with the skill of the one doing the crafting. For example, a leatherworker with up to ten levels in crafting perhaps gives +1 to his works, 10-20 = +2, 20-30=+3, etc, etc....
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: ethinos on July 10, 2008, 05:16:04 PM
That could get silly in the case of something like smiths and woodworkers making their high end gear though.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: KoopaFanatic on July 10, 2008, 05:29:39 PM
Agreed about it being potentially overwhelming.  It would be nice if there were some way for somebody with top levels in a craft to make more effective items, though.  Justify charging more and all.  For instance, if the effective spell level of an herbalist's potions increased once his herbalism level is higher than the potion DC.  Auto-success = better item but no cxp.  That way they're only going to make such an item if there's actually a market for it.

I *don't* think this should be an attack bonus for weapons, though.  If it were, everyone would be running around with +1 copper weapons. :)  Weight reduction, maybe.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: penny on July 10, 2008, 06:10:34 PM
I dunno if you can do this already.. but maybe the metal you use in studded leather will give you an extra AC bonus? Steel would be the best obviously, but there's also iron, bronze, copper..
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: ethinos on July 10, 2008, 06:24:48 PM
Actually, if I remember right, no actual metal goes into crafting studded leather armor. Also, the small portions of metal aren't likely to be largely influenced by different types of metal.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: ethinos on July 10, 2008, 06:25:31 PM
... Double posting like a n00b. :lol:
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: KoopaFanatic on July 10, 2008, 09:04:27 PM
That's correct.  For all the armors you just need leather and a pattern.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Cor Reale on May 28, 2009, 06:29:25 PM
i read the warning... but like the warning sign on the bridge leading north from the outskirts, across a wooden bridge... to the fisherman's lodge, the balanok mountains, the shipbuilder, the woods of shadows. I simply walked on by. So that that warning is out of the way, bypassed, where are hide armors in the leatherworkers' portfolio?
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: failed.bard on May 28, 2009, 10:14:23 PM
  Hide armour was combined with studded leather.  There is no true hide armour in game.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Cor Reale on May 28, 2009, 11:27:26 PM
i've seen witchhunter hide armor. thats all I can think of. which led me to suspect there was more.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Ellana Twiggy on October 04, 2013, 09:38:13 AM
If weaving is coming about with those spider silk glands it would be nice to see some +1 gloves and belts with some basic dmg from various pelts, ie neg from worg, pos from white stag, fire with firey beetle mandibles, and so forth. Not sure if it is coming or if its just going to be added to leather working, but I have been seeing quite a few new drops from creatures that seem like craftables but don't seem to work with any of the current systems yet.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Norture on October 11, 2013, 12:36:09 AM
So I was going to look into making enchanted leather armour, but it turns out the leathers either give skill bonuses to hiding OR move silently, so there's absolutely zero point to doing it. Would it be possible in the future for there to be a material that gives both hide and MS?
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on October 11, 2013, 12:37:11 AM
Preferably lots of both.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Norture on October 11, 2013, 12:42:16 AM
Well yeah, if you're going to enchant a piece of gear, it'd be nice if it was comparable to loot drops. I don't feel that skill point enchanting is balanced with melee enchanting. Melee gets huge amounts of bonuses to what they do, but people who want skill points can't get that.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Avatar6666 on October 11, 2013, 01:18:18 AM
Well yeah, if you're going to enchant a piece of gear, it'd be nice if it was comparable to loot drops. I don't feel that skill point enchanting is balanced with melee enchanting. Melee gets huge amounts of bonuses to what they do, but people who want skill points can't get that.

This is exactly why my rogue gave away his leather armor he had made, once I found out that it did nothing but either hide or more silently there was no point in me doing such. Such is the same with boots sadly...
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: respawnaholic on October 14, 2013, 02:41:46 PM
Well yeah, if you're going to enchant a piece of gear, it'd be nice if it was comparable to loot drops. I don't feel that skill point enchanting is balanced with melee enchanting. Melee gets huge amounts of bonuses to what they do, but people who want skill points can't get that.

This is exactly why my rogue gave away his leather armor he had made, once I found out that it did nothing but either hide or more silently there was no point in me doing such. Such is the same with boots sadly...

Yeah....leather working is kind of a useless endeavor currently. My personal threshold was when I found out ancient dire bear sturdy studded leather armor was heavier than steel chainmail. I spent 4 years leveling a craft only to find out my character cant wear it and then run around wearing his normal kit.
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: HoshaZilo on December 08, 2013, 09:29:29 AM
Well yeah, if you're going to enchant a piece of gear, it'd be nice if it was comparable to loot drops. I don't feel that skill point enchanting is balanced with melee enchanting. Melee gets huge amounts of bonuses to what they do, but people who want skill points can't get that.

This is exactly why my rogue gave away his leather armor he had made, once I found out that it did nothing but either hide or more silently there was no point in me doing such. Such is the same with boots sadly...

You could always enchant the boots as MS and the armor as Hide... or vise versa
Title: Re: Leatherworking
Post by: Elfric on December 08, 2013, 11:51:34 AM
Well yeah, if you're going to enchant a piece of gear, it'd be nice if it was comparable to loot drops. I don't feel that skill point enchanting is balanced with melee enchanting. Melee gets huge amounts of bonuses to what they do, but people who want skill points can't get that.

This is exactly why my rogue gave away his leather armor he had made, once I found out that it did nothing but either hide or more silently there was no point in me doing such. Such is the same with boots sadly...

You could always enchant the boots as MS and the armor as Hide... or vise versa
Mmhmm, the MS or hide is really to make things not stack both which gives a far superior stealther. If you wish for MS and Hide on leather armor, then you're best be getting some shadow armor or rogues garb ;D