Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Public (OOC) => Setting and Lore Discussion => Topic started by: EO on January 19, 2007, 05:50:15 PM
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Lately there has been a trend among outlander players to learn balok or luktar and to speak and understand it fairly well for some odd reason.
I'd like to remind everyone that learning such languages would be about impossible for outlanders as it would mean natives would be teaching them and natives tend to be xenophobic as hell. There are no books to balok or luktar either likely since most are illiterate. I consider it cheesing myself to give your character that ability without roleplaying it out IC (with a DM perhaps) only to understand what native players say.
You don't learn a language on the fly like that. Anyone who speaks more than one language will know this. You don't just learn Spanish or Japanese or English on your own by listening to people either, that is about impossible (alright, maybe your character has 20 int and is a master linguist). Just to speak a broken version of a language takes a while..I'm sure all our ESL players know what I mean, I'm ESL myself.
I'm not targetting anyone, but this is a concern a few native character players have brought up to me and I feel it's necessary to remind everyone of what the setting is like and that no, there are no "Learning Balok for Dummies" guides or Balok 101 classes offered in Barovia. Things such as "[Broken Balok] I speak broken balok" are fairly ridiculous and it seems people do it just to give their character more power.
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hmm...maybe a language tool would be in order. I'd dismissed it in the past, but I've seen it in use before, and it might be useful to avoid this sort of thing....plus rebels could plan stuff in Luktar, etc., which would be really cool :mrgreen:
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I'd agree on a language tool. It'd be nifty.
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Yea, I noticed this too... had a Halfling reply to me in "broken Balok" when I asked what a child was doing outside after sundown, and to get inside the Inn.
"[Broken Balok] Not... child..."
Have also had folk reply to me in "broken Luktar" when old Zeteny is making fun at folks with other Gundarakites. [broken Luktar] Stop... or I will... tell guards you... are all rebels... They are... looking for rebels..."
I mean, I know it's frustrating not speaking a language... but just suddenly knowing a broken version of a difficult language is really cheesy...
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If you got 10 intelligence and are speaking 5 languages like a scholar, ask yourself ''Should I?"
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I'd love to see a language tool.
With the increase in native role play, such a tool would minimize metagaming and cheesing.
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at the same time in PnP, on creation, you get additional languages based on your int modifier... and SOME of us have actually been around long enough to start picking up the language
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Yea, I noticed this too... had a Halfling reply to me in "broken Balok" when I asked what a child was doing outside after sundown, and to get inside the Inn.
"[Broken Balok] Not... child..."
The halfling mentioned isn't outlander ;)
But I must admit, you caught me a bit off guard - I suddenly couldn't remember what languages she'd know... and it has been bugging me ever since.. -.-;; lol.. Therefore I used the rather pathetic "broken-balok"-thing... hehe.. sorry 'bout that..
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Lets say you have an outlander who serves in the guard for quite a number of years -ic-. Since he is among the native population, there is a context supporting him learning at least some of the language. I can imagine a dm then granting the language tool in that event.
The pc might learn balok in this example, but would not know lutkar.
Vice Versa, an outlander who becomes a rebel in the Gundarakite's struggle for independence, might eventually have the context needed to support them learning lutkar.
These can be some of the rp incentives for having pcs more entrenched in the local setting.
A language tool would be one means for regulating which pcs should know what language.
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You don't pick up a language, honestly. You might pickup a few words, but learning it? No way you could pick up the grammar, syntax, structure of a second language merely by hearing it..unless you got like 20 int and are really dedicated to jolt down sentences, compare them.
Learning it through someone willing to teach it is another story and as Icon said, it could happen IC for some players (I would assume an outlander guard willing to learn could ask for a teacher or just force someone into it). But that's something that should happen IC, not simply assuming you know imho.
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Well.. wouldnt it be possible to learn it, if you really wanted to learn it..? I think it would actually.. it would take a while and a lot of hard work... but.. it should be possible... not unheard of... o.o
Iconoclastic - you're a teacher too I think, what do you say? I have to think a bit more and consult some of my lingua-books before I can be certain.. ^^
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Ironically enough, my M.S. was in Language Education.
Since most outlanders are past their developmental stage where they pick up language easily (as a pre-teen child in early adoloscence can), they would need a mixture of a few things; a tutor, and years of being entrenched in the language. To complicate this even more, since the native Barovian or Gundarakite will not know the native language of the outlander, the tutor will have an even harder time.
If your tutor speaks both the target language and the native language of the learner, then the going is easier.
I mentored ESL students from Taiwan who had been studying academic Englilsh since primary school. They could speak enough English to order food at a restaraunt or to manage simple expressions and light conversation, but to be able to articulate themselves on a more abstract level in their second language was always a daunting challenge to them in our classes together.
Adults have a terrible time learning a second language. They almost never master it, even the most intelligent.
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You don't pick up a language, honestly. You might pickup a few words, but learning it? No way you could pick up the grammar, syntax, structure of a second language merely by hearing it..unless you got like 20 int and are really dedicated to jolt down sentences, compare them.
Learning it through someone willing to teach it is another story and as Icon said, it could happen IC for some players (I would assume an outlander guard willing to learn could ask for a teacher or just force someone into it). But that's something that should happen IC, not simply assuming you know imho.
Let me give you an example:
My father immigrated Canada, Quebec 22 years ago; he has an Universitary degree in Electrical engeneering; his main language is spanish, he came to Canada when he was 32 years young.
When ariving as an immigrant, integration is hard; he had to do all kind of sh*t jobs to send my mother and myself back in the homeland (Chile) some $$ to pay for substenance and eventually brought us over.
He worked tossing the newspaper, worked in sprinkler's heavy sweat shops all of that, without speaking ONE word of French nor english, eventually after 2 years, he picked up a few words and with body language and ''Yes or no or ''job language'' managed to make himself understood in regards of his ''Work'', however, never enough to carry a conversation with a French Canadian EVEN less with their complicated "Slang".
Now time has passed, he is able to carry a certain level of conversation, took him perhaps 10 more years to being able to carry a conversation with someone; he never did take courses, he did later once he had to re-do his engeneering degree, in all to the point: 22 years in Montreal and STILL has very broken french.
Now, I know this isn't a RL and its a game, but it gives you an idea, if you can picture an inclusive society such as Canada that it can take an individual 20 years to manage broken sentences, imagine what in a reclusive, xenophobic, society such as Barovia where social interaction with local populace is prone to being scarce.
Adults have a terrible time learning a second language. They almost never master it, even the most intelligent.
Very true. When I got to Canada at the age of 9, took me perhaps 6 months and I was out pwnin' little "Québecois" at Soccer and dodgeball, hells even hockey... :lol: all of that, with good french...
Picked up english later with school and while visiting Toronto (English) as I have family there, then took on University and took Italian courses, easy due my Latin background, 3 semesters of italian, its the language I struggle the most with, despite 3 years of study and some ....italian ragazze "modern friends". :lol:
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i'll use myself for example with dragrin she cant speak balok perfectly granted but she does have rp to back up the learning with local PC's that are more friendly to her then most
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And... then ... there is the US Military's "Defense Language Institute" ..... where in 54 weeks of full immersion training in a language, they can take one who is never heard a language before to a full "local accent" speaker who even dreams in the langauge. (And if you think I'm full of shit, you need to ask my brother speaks Czech as a result of this method).
I roleplay a claim to knowing Luktar - since my 3 months real life hiatus was explained in game by being in Krezk and being under the spiritual care of the religious at the Krezk morninglord temple. It is not unrealistic that a Morninglord religious one would not have an opportunity to learn the language - since in Krezk and the other western villages services may sometimes be held in the language.
For Balok, if my character hears someone speaking it, I roll an INT and see if I can make out a few words. Again, not unrealistic. I am not a native spanish speaker - but when I hear the mexicans arguing at the gas station, and one of them uses strong vocal inflections and says something about "madre" and "puta" - I know enough words in the language to know someone called someone's mother a bitch.
So therefore, while I think that not every player would be speaking balok or luktar, that does not necessarily mean that the language is the exclusive use of native characters and outlanders are prohibited or somehow incapable of learning it.
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Dunno, my char after I think 8 years and some ... rudimentary lessons with HolyRage's char Marilena, only understands very very few words and can speak way less... Yes, she can give a balor greeting, grunt a yes, or say a no... and catch up a few very used words, like guard, outlanders, etc...
Never thought that this is cheesy... *Shrugs*
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So therefore, while I think that not every player would be speaking balok or luktar, that does not necessarily mean that the language is the exclusive use of native characters and outlanders are prohibited or somehow incapable of learning it.
The issue is this: I can justify anything through Roleplay and there should be limitations or a certain control to which that holds true.
I can roll a character tomorrow that has lived amongst linguistic scholars in Krezk and have him speak all of the languages of the Core, even.
Where do we draw the line?
The language tool would come to regulate that and control that to some extent, those taking the necessary means to learn a language through RP will be rewarded with the "leaning token" of a language. 8 intelligence character learning another language, hardly. Scholars with some inteligence and enough wisdom to retain said teachings, maybe.
I am glad to see these discussions pop, as to me, they are signs of what I always wanted PoTM to be about : Native play vs Outlander and dynamics. This case its a system for Outlanders adjusting to native PC'S, which is great.
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If a language tool is what is required so that the few that feel "cheesed" by characters speaking in "forbideen tongues" are appeased, then fine ... implement it. However, care must be taken that those that can present a valid reason for learning a tongue either by back story or some other reason can be accomodated and it's not simply "you're not local, eat it!"
I think a language tool might a good thing.
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EO mon calisse d'criss de tabernak de chummy du bonyeu de saint-ciboire du père. M'a t'y crisser une volée a Crule, sera pas long.
'Swing la bacaisse dans le fond de la boîte a bois, mouehehee.
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The above is known as 'jouale' slang french canadian. A french speaking person, from france could not understand this, only those who are 'local' to said slang could.
I can guarantee you, if I applied the same stretch of slang to in game and Emoted [Heavy Balok Slang] you couldn't understand a word, and I am just referring to the 'voiced' part of the language, the rest comes with body language and cultural signs.
Edit: I visit Chinatown often, as often as some people who visit Vallaki to shop for their needs, do I understand chineese? hell no...lol...
Can I understand their symbols? Uhhhh..
(http://www.albertson.edu/academics/asianstudies/images/j0110719.gif)
Uhhh..
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Free Translation.Com offers a humorous translation:
EO my calisse d'criss of tabernak of chummy of the bonyeu of holy ciborium of the father. Has me you there to screech a steering wheel has Crule, will be not long.
'Swing the bacaisse in the bottom of the can has drinks, mouehehee.
hmm.. Holy Ciborium of the Father.... even with the slang, some words do come out - hince the way I RP some knowledge of balok would be legit..... roll an [int] and try to piece together certain words.
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Eradur mon calisse de chien sale de batard vas tu y sacrer la paix a Crule? :mrgreen:
Born and raised in Quebec i knew very little of english, Yes, no, toaster until i met my very amarican husband who can Tabarnak in a broken russian. with a bit of yes no toaster and parking we managed and fell in love, now im slowly losing my french like a good little immigrant that i am lol no really took me 3 years of immersion to learn a GREAT english
most swears in quebecois are religious symbol, would make your ears steams Crule im afraid.
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most swears in quebecois are religious symbol, would make your ears steams Crule im afraid.
Already explained Crule in depth. :lol:
Then I told him about the cultural background of said curses. Language goes beyond "verbal", beyond "body" language, it is something that is carried and understood through history, "symbols" and the likes, so for instance, you may catch a word in that stretch of cursing I showcased earlier, but you wouldn't be able to understand what it really means when those words are put together.
Its why, I would be skeptical on characters "learning" at ease in a society such as Barovia, where people would rarely share something with an Outlander, where all you would pick up (Not for all) wouldbe strangely odd hand gestures, "Chineese" like language completely alien to which you are used to.
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Would love to find a way to roleplay learning a language though...
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Would love to find a way to roleplay learning a language though...
Ive rped teaching someone to read, that was interresting..
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Would love to find a way to roleplay learning a language though...
Ive rped teaching someone to read, that was interresting..
Same here, actually. :D
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Would love to find a way to roleplay learning a language though...
Ive rped teaching someone to read, that was interresting..
Same here, actually. :D
Stay tuned on LeBarthe and the "Slums". :P
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So therefore, while I think that not every player would be speaking balok or luktar, that does not necessarily mean that the language is the exclusive use of native characters and outlanders are prohibited or somehow incapable of learning it.
Many native PC's in Barovia may speak Balok, but the Gundarakite and those that speak luktar are a minority. In fact, it is unlikely you will ever cross the Gundarak PC's who speak it in your presence. The only way I could understand any outlander understanding luktar is if they spend the majority of their time hanging around native speakers, and the chances of that are currently non existant.
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One server I played on years ago issued the players certain ears which allowed them to speak and understand the languages.
It would be a nice touch, for awhile on PTOM everyone and there grandmother could understand and speak Drow... talk about cheesy goodness. Half the server had once been there slaves, go figure.... the mists are mean kinapping ex slaves.
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One server I played on years ago issued the players certain ears which allowed them to speak and understand the languages.
It would be a nice touch, for awhile on PTOM everyone and there grandmother could understand and speak Drow... talk about cheesy goodness. Half the server had once been there slaves, go figure.... the mists are mean kinapping ex slaves.
Lol. I am glad I am not the only one feeling this way.
Ravenloft goes Underground with the Ex-G Units of tha' Slave Crew: "Smoke Tha' Misty Sh*t tour" :lol:
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And the tool Fey speaks about was based on "intelligence, base race" and I'd add wisdom to that as well, for potential learning.
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One server I played on years ago issued the players certain ears which allowed them to speak and understand the languages.
As far as my experience goes, I've understood that those language widgets that make the actual spoken words seem gibberish unless you have the widget to understand them, make use of the DM channel.
e.g. /dm [I don't know a word of *Balok*]... and Balok comes as original... the same can also be used to make summons and familiars talk...
I'd guess they are a great nuisance to the dms though.
Just my two cents.
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One of the servers I've played on previously used language widgets, and I felt that they were quite effective. By using the widget, it does make what is spoken to everyone without the widget seem like "gibberish." (In this particular case, each language had it's own gibberish, so to speak, so that elven had softer sounds and dwarven was very glutteral, etc. Most of it was done by swapping out letters, so that a became s, and so on and so forth) And as another person mentioned, certain words could be made to stand out by adding a * before and after the word.
Another problem that I've found is the fact that people assume that someone cannot speak a certain language, and thus emote things like:
[Speaks to Bob in Balok]
[Answers Steven in Balok]
... and so on and so forth, with the actual message being given out in tells so that no one ever sees it. While this prevents metagaming, it also keeps people who know the language from hearing what you've said when they would otherwise know! :evil: And sometimes, we don't necessarily want anyone to know that we know the language, even on an OOC level, to preserve some of that fabulous mystery and shock value for when our characters finally speak it!
In the end, I think that language widgets would be a wonderful tool to implement, as they are relatively easy to use and allow for much more varied roleplay. Since the widgets given out would be controlled by DMs, at least at first, it could be heavily monitored as to who had what and prevent silly things like a character with 10 intelligence knowing six different languages. At the same time, it would allow people with multiple ones to hear all the conversations on a fair, unbiased level as someone could not cloak what they were saying by simply emoting [Speaks in Balok to Bob] and never give the text.
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10 Int: one language-> Common for outlanders, balok for natives, Luktar for gundaraks
12 Int: Two languages
14 Int: Three languages
and so on..
At least this is for starting characters.. Of course would racial languages be implemented as well.. Dwarves would get dwarven + common, native barovians would get balok + common, gundarakites would probably get Luktar+balok+common and so on as base languages and then extra languages based on int mod.. And no outlander can begin knowing balok, luktar or any of the other native ravenloft languages except for common-low mordentish..
And those native to barovia would probably not have picked up any outsider languages except for common, which is a bit essential for RP.
I know Sadek would probably know around 3 languages by now, Luktar: Was born in former Gundarak, Balok: Has been living in Barovia, namely around Vallaki for a long time and lastly Common: Raised from an early age by an outlander druid..
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Even though Marek has 20 intelligence and I can whip up something and assume I learned it here and here. I always prefer roleplaying learning a language In character. For instance I was spying on several characters and I consistently kept hearing this language being spoken. This irritated marek because spying is useless if he can not understand what they were saying so he tried to jot down what the phrase sounded like to the best of his ability. I then took this piece of paper to the librarian in Vallaki and tried to repeat the phrases to him. I rolled int rolls for writing it down and saying it to the librarian. I Rolled high in both.
I then payed the librarian to scribe me a sort of guide to the language to help me learn it. Was something obscene for the book too.. Around 4,000.
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Oh and yeah.. I´ve had plenty of moments with drow sitting around and chatting about stupid calibans and how the should take over the whole underworld in drow while Sadek sat at the other table just being frustrated over not knowing what the hell those sissies were talking about..
And that is probably with it being a larger chance of a ´ban learning drow that an outlander learning Balok or Luktar..
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Drow is not a language on it's own.
Drow is Elvish, spoken with a dialect... like the difference between British English and American English. It's a really common misconception.
But to be back on topic... if a character has been living and working closely with Barovians/Gundarakites for a long time, that's a big difference being able to roll int and getting an idea of what they're saying, than some new guy out of the mist suddenly knowing how to understand and speak 'broken balok' - that was what I was trying to get at before...
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Rofl. In Nynorsk, the reformed dialect-compilatorial language of Norway, "Luktar" means "Smells".
Sorry. I just had to mention it. =P
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[Jumping on the off-topic-wagon with Rill] That's funny, in danish Lugter means smells - but ok, norwegian and danish is pretty much the same.. but I cant understand Nynorsk :lol:[/end of being off topic for me.. for now]
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:offtopic:
Rofl. In Nynorsk, the reformed dialect-compilatorial language of Norway, "Luktar" means "Smells"
Same in swedish ;)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWukdsIcEWE
When I think of you Scandinavians, this video pops to mind.
....When I think of Scandinavian woman ....Uhm, can't post that. :P
Pervs.
:lol:
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[cracks up laughing]
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Another thing to think about, is hearing a foreign language and our ability to process the sounds and to then pronounce some sounds. My first teaching job was in Samoa. The language was beautiful, consisting of many soft vowel sounds. My ears could barely distinguish words from the sounds my ears were recieving. And learning how to use my tongue and mouth in a completely new way to make sounds that were unique to the Samoan culture, was comical.
At an early age, our brain is shaped by the patterns that surround us. After a while, the brain reaches a point where it no longer malleable.
Two other volunteers on the island, had a three year old daughter; Sandy. Within a few weeks, she had a better grasp of the Samoan language than I had after formal study.
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Just a sidenote, did you know that babies, before they are born develop hearing - yes, obviously - but did you also know that even before babies are born they start understanding and PREFERING the language they hear in the womb? O.O isnt that amazing? So I think the early age Iconoclast refer to is actually before they child is born? At least thats where it begins.. :)
Eraldur, are we, scandinavian women pervs - or are you a perv? ^^
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Eraldur, are we, scandinavian women pervs - or are you a perv? ^^
Scandinavian woman are simply gorgeous, would they not exist, I'd try to invent them - call me me a perv for that any day! 8)
Edit: Yeah, uhm, language tool all the way :lol:
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:cloud9: Naaaaaarrrhhh... not a perv... ^^
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Isnt that video german? :lol:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWukdsIcEWE
When I think of you Scandinavians, this video pops to mind.
....When I think of Scandinavian woman ....Uhm, can't post that. :P
Pervs.
:lol:
:shock:
..Holy crap. That's.. hilarious
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i think that video is close enough to what this thread is all about :P
A moins qu'on appelle l'institut linguistiquee, 240-6011 XD
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14 int gets 3 langs? Awesome! I can learn Balok AND Luktar then! Just gotta get someone to teach me
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14 int gets 3 langs? Awesome! I can learn Balok AND Luktar then! Just gotta get someone to teach me
as a reminder though for all those non-humans, the base species language (ie. elven for elves) is the freebie and learning common counts against your total...
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Is that a "houserule" Jiron?
Demi-human races usually get both common and their race language as starting languages, at least in all the rules i´ve read..
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Is that a "houserule" Jiron?
Demi-human races usually get both common and their race language as starting languages, at least in all the rules i´ve read..
you are correct, sadek. demi-humans get common and their racial tongue for "free" at character creation :)
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heh, it must be... that's how we always played, and it made so much sense I never bothered to look it up... after all, a human with 10 int can only learn his common, why should a similar elf be any different?
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Since common is common ;)
And well in the FR setting book(at least) all characters learn Common(or Undercommon in the Underdark) and their regional/racial language. So nearly all characters begin with at least two languages + int mod additional languages.. I have a nagging suspicion that demi-humans might begin with up to three languages even with only 10 Int, though this is only a suspicion :lol:
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Half-elves speak elven and common. Half-orcs speak common and orc.
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Once again id like to poke at the word background. Kukri when she arrived in barovia did not spoke elven even tho it was a free language, she was just not raised in a place where she learned it. Altho when the roleplay came along, i eventually gave her the elven language.
Same for Aina who does not speak common as her 8intel AND background reasons.
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real life stories:
for someone somewhat fluently in languages 3 month in a country making an effort makes you understand the language.
I am danish, nobody speaks danish apart from us, so we tend to learn a bit of foreighn languages.
1 week in france and i could begin to understand a bit, 2 weeks and i could speak a bit.
It is actually unrealistic not being able to understand more and more of a language used in a place you reside permanently.
Aran
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real life stories:
for someone somewhat fluently in languages 3 month in a country making an effort makes you understand the language.
I am danish, nobody speaks danish apart from us, so we tend to learn a bit of foreighn languages.
1 week in france and i could begin to understand a bit, 2 weeks and i could speak a bit.
It is actually unrealistic not being able to understand more and more of a language used in a place you reside permanently.
Aran
All that really shows though is that you are a reasonably intelligent individual with more then a bit of willpower. I got drug all over the world in my youth and when I had the opportunity, picked up enough of whatever language I needed to get along with. But that's not fluency, it's functionality.
Unfortunently, out of the German, French, Greek, Russian, Polish, and Danish that stuck with me, all I can basically recall Now, after being rooted here for a decade or so, and not immeresed in anything but English, redneck, ebonics, and chicano/spanglish, is a few of the swear words. Though if I toss on the german news on satellite I can follow along with a bit of effort.
I blame the Babylonians for the problem personally. Them and their damn tower!
~Rex :twisted:
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Something to consider though Aran, is that the natives don't want to be talking with most outlanders. Most outlanders reside at the outskirts. They are not immersed in the local culture. They are kept at the margins. While picking up a few phrases is likely, it is not common for outlanders to learn to speak Balok or Luktar fluently enough to be used as an asset.
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you dont really need to be part of conversations
just sitting at an in or at a market where people trade will let you pick up most common phrases.
knowing those you start to understand more and more.
they might not want to talk to us, but they cant prevent the outlanders listening in.
then what of the mage with say 16 in intelligence.
he should then just by listening in a few days used this way, have a basic understanding of the language just by analysing what is being spoken where.
this is the truth of real life ;-)
But that said, as soo many other things are different in ravenloft the local language could be magical in some way just as non magically giftet cannot read scrolls ;-)
Aran
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13th Warrior with Antonio Banderas... And Sven Volter(swede)...
I kinda liked the way he picked up the language after sitting around listening at what they said around the campfire.. Probably took a few weeks/months that they speeded up though..
But then again Banderas´s character was some kind of scholar with alot of brainpower..
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Actually, in real life, people don't become fluent in a language by listening in on conversations. A child of average intelligence at age four would learn a second language with much greater success than an adult mage with an intelligence of 18.
However, some languages are sister languages, so to speak. There may be cognates (sematics) or they may share syntaxical structure, making some languages easier to learn than others in some cases. If someone is then immersed in the culture, and they pay close attention to how the language is being used in practical context, then they have an easier time learning some of the basics. I'd have a much easier time, being a native English speaker, learning German, as opposed to Manderin. Then, when you factor in how many dialects can exist within one language, its pretty wild.
If an outlander's native language has a lot in common with Luktar and Balok, then they'd have an easier go at learning some of the basic conversational word patterns. Since the local culture has been isolated for some time, the chances of an outlander's native language having much in common with Balok and Luktar, are slim.
In any event, if anyone has a strong enough desire to study up on the subject of language aquisition or learning, I can refer them to the research and studies. I'm not offended if someone doesn't take my word for it. You can study it for yourself.
Sadek, its funny that you brought up the 13th Warrior movie. In my language studies, we've often referred to that movie. There is nothing realistic in that. It's fantasy all the way.
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Sadek, its funny that you brought up the 13th Warrior movie. In my language studies, we've often referred to that movie. There is nothing realistic in that. It's fantasy all the way.
Hehe, yeah I know :lol:.. It was just made in an interesting way..
But 18 in Int is alot! It´s genius level intelligence, or at the very least very close to it.. But yeah, it´s no easy feat to pick up a language. And children have an easy time.. If only my parents were multi-langual and spoke 5 languages when I was a kid.. :(
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Iconoclast,
You make a lot of very valid points but... and I have to make this clear, if you are dropped into anothers person's culture,
You learn the language, or you die.. typically. I have seen many accounts of this, and not in movies, but in slavery. Do you
think people take the time to teach their slaves to communicate past a bull whip and a bark? No way... but many if not most of
these slaves pick up the language, they MUST.. it is direly important... this is documented in many places, and references to
learning languages when totally immesed in a culture does happen.
The examples I find people using may be a little misleading... Yes Eraldurs dad may have been Strong Spanish for years and speaking
broken french, but... and I may be entirely wrong here... i doubt he was an island in a sea of french. He undoubtably spoke
on the phone with his family, and took refuge in his own language a lot of the time, perhaps with Spanish friends. He likely spoke
Spanish at home... typical of many people moving to a new country, they take refuge in their own culture, their own languages.
The example of 13th Warrior is a Fallacy, listening and learning a language over such a short time period, I call BS on right away,
but the reference I use as per the slaves, they had great incentive to learn their captors languages, they HAD no one to take
refuge in, as slaves were often alone on farms or ranches, and they would likely practice and practice HARD to learn it, even if
they hated the language.
If I was dropped in Quebec, and heaven forbid I had to learn French in its entirety, without English people to help me out, I would
learn the language... what matters is several things; your personal intelligence, your drive to learn the language, and your use of the
language..
Even Parrots can learn words in languages, mimicing the words and gaining understand from things like... I am Hungry, or I love you...
If a Parrot can pick up the words, I have no doubt that an above average intelligent human can at least pick up some words too.
Cheers...
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I have never looked into the subject, but I would imagine that you greatly overestimate the amount of foreign language a first generation slave can pick up in a foreign environment. It is true that they would pick up some amount, as learning phrases like "fill the bucket" and "clean the oven" isn't that difficult when it is repeated to you five times (with gestures) and each subsequent failure to understand is met with punishment. I imagine many slaves in such an environment would turn to longer standing slaves to get a little help.
I'd imagine it would be somewhat like going to a foreign country with a book of phrases in the native language. When you wish it, you can open up the book and find the phrase matching your desired action. Look at the same ones enough and you'll get it down. Throw the book away however and you won't be learning new ones from that point on. A slave, do to their situation, has great incentive to memorize the wording given to them.
I'd be interested in any cases of such quick learning though. In any case, Barovia is not "sink or swim" slavery.
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The language tool, as previously said, will accomodate for those outlanders who may come to learn Luktar or Balok, when supported by role playing. Nothing is stopping a character from learning very basic words such as 'hello,' 'goodbye,' 'yes, 'no,' and so on.
If Outlanders were immersed in the culture, the natives wouldn't call them 'outlanders.'
Its far too subjective, to allow a player to decide on thier own when or if their character has learned Balok or Luktar. The awarding of a language tool, will ensure that the player has the role playing to support their character's learning of Balok or Luktar. Basically, those outlanders who become part of a native-based faction, I imagine will have a greater chance of learning the language.
Luktar and Balok are invaluable resources. For example, the outlander who becomes involed with the Gundarakite, who spends plenty of time in their company, would likely be able to learn luktar after a while. That would be one of the benefits. Now if you allow any player to decide their character knows Luktar, after two weeks, without being immersed among the Gundarakite, that would stink of rotten cheese. :mrgreen: That is another reason as to why a language tool is needed.
Edit: Well put Shady.
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The examples I find people using may be a little misleading... Yes Eraldurs dad may have been Strong Spanish for years and speaking
broken french, but... and I may be entirely wrong here...
You are entirely wrong.
Anyways, re-read my post with the Chinese example vs Vallaki merchants, I visit China town often, like as often as some of you spend in the city of Vallaki with your characters, you don't see me speak chineese nor getting a single word of what the hells they say, and yet, these chinese folks are far more friendlier than your typical Barovian would be.
Moral: "Me rub you lon' time, suky fuky?''
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Then I apologize.. I put it in Bold just in case...
Sorry Eraldur..
But your example with the Chinese stuff? That is silly..
Recognizing symbols does not equate to understanding speaking the language... your right...
However as diverse as languages are their roots are often similar in vein, specifically Latin based languages, I am more inclined to believe humans could pick up Balok quicker then an elf...
Second to that, "visiting" Chinatown isn't living for a long period of time in China... you still go home, people in these towns usually speak the language of the day in order to get you to buy something... Hardly equivalent.. Outlanders are stuck in a world designed for an entirely different set of people, they adapt, or they die out.. yet every damned person I see speaks common? Why does THAT happen? Well it sort of has to... without a common language that every outlander could understand what fun would the game be?
I do know that symbol you posted up you might not know the Chinese word for... but that isn't that point I'm making, it is likely you pass the symbol enough to gain the inferences of it... Oh look a symbol that looks like a t and a j mixed up... I will go in and see what it is... oh a carpentry place... it might mean wood or craft... and you go from there.. And you may be able to reproduce it... this 5 minute thing practiced half a dozen times or so, could stay in your memory forever, or even after a year of studying, you may never get the curve just right on the letter... some people are natural linguists, some are not, but there should be something, and I agree with Iconoclast, to regulate it...
Again sorry Eraldur.
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Second to that, "visiting" Chinatown isn't living for a long period of time in China... you still go home, people in these towns usually speak the language of the day in order to get you to buy something... Hardly equivalent.. Outlanders are stuck in a world designed for an entirely different set of people, they adapt, or they die out.. yet every damned person I see speaks common? Why does THAT happen? Well it sort of has to... without a common language that every outlander could understand what fun would the game be?
Well, like I said. The Outlanders you refer to, are gathered around the Ladies Rest where they all speak "Common" tongue; and they -do- visit the city as often as I visit China Town, part of the reason I would not buy someone learning so quickly is because of the lack of interaction and actual immersion on the behalf of outlanders vs the setting due to them not being forced to adapt or/and die out. An Outlander can perfectly survive without visiting Vallaki, nor depending on its economy. The immersion is already quasi-unexistant, now, if it was present, I seriously question the quality of the immersion you'd have, really. Would be like sliding a Kenyan in the middle of a KKK sect and have him try to 'Interact' with them.
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Most outlanders, about all outlanders rather, live in the Lady's Rest or on the fringes of town with..more outlanders. Most outlanders visit Vallaki to shop or drop for an ale with..more outlanders with whom they speak. It is very similar to the Chinatown example. They don't live in Barovian homes or drink with Barovians, they don't play chess with Barovians, they hang out with other outlanders who speak common.
For the record:
Balok-Romanian (direct translation)
Luktar-Hungarian (direct translation)
Common/Low Mordentish-English
High Mordentish: French
There are plenty of other languages, but common, luktar and balok are what you will likely see. For those who might be wondering, Romanian is an indo-european language (that means, in the same big family as English, French, Italian, German, etc)and more specifically it is in the same family as French, Italian and all; languages directly influenced by Latin. Hungarian, on the other hand, is a totally different language type more akin to Russian and as such not at all based on latin (or perhaps lightly) and it's not an indo-european language. That means that one would likely have an easier time learning Balok than Luktar as the roots are closer for Balok.
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Sadek, its funny that you brought up the 13th Warrior movie. In my language studies, we've often referred to that movie. There is nothing realistic in that. It's fantasy all the way.
Hehe, yeah I know :lol:.. It was just made in an interesting way..
But 18 in Int is alot! It´s genius level intelligence, or at the very least very close to it.. But yeah, it´s no easy feat to pick up a language. And children have an easy time.. If only my parents were multi-langual and spoke 5 languages when I was a kid..
Roughly put, INT is one of the easier stats to translate. Tack a zero on the end of the stat and that is the IQ of the individual. Gives you a good ballpark to bat around in. 18 Int is a 180 IQ. 14 puts you right at the beginning of the Genius level.
You should see the scales for STR. You would never turn your nose up at a 12 again. :twisted:
Besides, Languages, are a SKILL, and in PnP, you can buy more skills with your skill points as you level, learning more languages then the bonuses provided by your INT score. Now, NwN basic engine does not let you do that, but Many of the servers that run on 3.5 skill base, have the extra skills missing from the NwN basic set up and you can simply toss skill points in the needed area when required through leveling/experience. Many of the Player Resource Consortium set ups also have such, so you can buy Jump, Climb, Swim, Language, etc etc etc ......
A good compromise, is using an existing skill like Lore. Everyone can buy it. Last place I saw that did that it was Lore/4=language max.
~Rex :evil:
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I would go ahead and agree that UNLESS someone specificly rped learning the language, showed and taught by a PC or NPC with the natural knowledge of the language.. cant learn it.
Exemple.. Logan has been hanging around Aina quite a bite and since her language is close enough to elven/his high intelligence score/ her showing him what word means, AKA basicly teaching him, He is one of the only char out there that can say victoriously that he understand her.. for the most part.
All the others with either elven as their race and a high WIS/high LORE i give out hints to what she is saying and NO, even a roll of 25wis dosnt make you magicaly understand what she;s saying
Einstein didnt wake up one morning understanding chinesse.
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as a side note: "low" mordentish is NOT common, nor is it modern english. It is old english.
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There are plenty of other languages, but common, luktar and balok are what you will likely see. For those who might be wondering, Romanian is an indo-european language (that means, in the same big family as English, French, Italian, German, etc)and more specifically it is in the same family as French, Italian and all; languages directly influenced by Latin. Hungarian, on the other hand, is a totally different language type more akin to Russian and as such not at all based on latin (or perhaps lightly) and it's not an indo-european language. That means that one would likely have an easier time learning Balok than Luktar as the roots are closer for Balok.
It's called a "romance language" ... and yes, Latin was the parent language to French, Spanish, Italian, Portugese, Romansch (a swiss language), and Romanian. However, Romanian also has a lot of Slavic influence on it. German, however, is not a romance language. It is a "germanic" language. English is more related to German than it is to French or Spanish.
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Canis magister est.. >.>
Man 5 years of latin in high school.. i loved it.
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Eric would learn. Provided someone wanted to try and teach the uncouth beer swilling mountain man a proper language.
That could actually be an interesting "hook" for someone.
~Rex :twisted:
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It's possible to learn a foreign language, provided you wish to do so.
First, myself as an example.
I speak English more or less fluently. Have some problems with grammar, but all and all, I speak it good enough. Prior to learning English in school (as a part of the standard Swedish educational system) I spoke English as well. I picked up on English through sky channel alone. Well, that, and asking my mom what some of the words ment. In a year (not kidding) I learned to speak English well enough to work as a guide to German tourists visiting Sweden. At this point, I was 9 years old. In 1 year, between ages 8 and 9, I learned english good enough to guide tourists.
For a child, learning a language is a piece of cake.
However, I do oppose any notion about it being impossible for a grown man to do so. The dude who has the pizza place down the road from where I live came to Sweden when he was 28. He's lived here for 4 years now. Only 4. And he speaks Swedish very well. However, he too had education.
Without education, I'm very hesitant to accept people learning new languages. Especially in a setting such as Ravenloft, where chances are none would sit down with you for several hours each day and teach you. It's true as someone said before - you don't just pick up on a language. Or, rather... You need to have something to refer to. A language means nothing if you don't have 2 things - first off, someone to help you translate the words. The grammar is likley to come natural if you're constantly exposed to a new language (hence why people go on language trips for 6 months and come back speaking the other language quite well). And second, you need a rather large base of words in order to start somewhere.
Learning some words is acceptable. Yes or no is typichal. As well as hello, goodbye, etc etc. When you hit then 200 word marker, you have a good chance of putting new words into context, and understanding what they mean.
Also, I remember playing on a server where elven was scripted. I also remember that after a year, I could hold a conversation with a person using the script, without using a script myself. So I am hesitant to agree that it's impossible to learn a new language. If I can do it by reading elven 4 hours a day playing a game, then someone who lives in the world 24 hours a day would stand a good chance of doing so too.
How this should be done is another question. A script would be nice, and preferably one that isn't anywhere on the internet. That way, if people learn In Game, then they learn In Game. You can't claim someone to be metagaming or god modding the knowledge of a language if the person playing is actually learning it for real.
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I've found out, especially with my Mexican customers (and the Germans, go figure) I have had to launch out of the strip club head first, that PAIN, seems to accelerate ones mastery of English.
I allways had to work my ass off to learn a language. Just not my thing, and I lose it very quickly if I am not around it to keep in practice. However it's still doable with an intent to do it and a need to do it.
NEED factors in as much as will. That's one of the reasons I actually ditched the construction retail work, because I got tired, of being in the middle of an english speaking country, and being the bad guy, because I am irritated, that all I get to hear all day, is bad spanish, polish, and russian, from a bunch of people that "refuse" to adapt.
They don't have to because they have their entire little island nations/neighborhoods here. That's one of the bad things about living in a very BIG country.
Personally I've allways found it a matter of respect to learn the language of where I was living at the time. I may have mangled the accent, but I took TIME, to struggle with something that is not one of my strong points, because it's the least on can do, to not ba a complete ignorant ass to ones neighbors all the time.
Now back on target. Learning in game is easy enough especially if the DM's want to incorporate the compromise of Lore, or perhaps, a set up to add extra Skiils, much like they allready have a system to add extra feats. A simple ooc token in the inventory, or many of the language widgets out there could easily handle such. Find a teacher put in the work, get a DM involved, problem solved.
I do have a few friends though where language is a natural gift for them. It allmost IS 13th Warrior-ish watching them pick up functionality in a couple of weeks. Though that also explains why they work as black ops translators in the military. :D
~Rex :twisted:
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I am under the impression that the language tokens, if the Developer's conclude to implement them, would primarily be for Balok and Luktar, since those two languages are very important variables in story development in a setting with opposing native factions.
I'm only speculating at this point. All I know is that at the last Developer's meeting, a discussion began on the possibility of language tokens after players voiced concerns and reasoning. I imagine, that if the tokens are implemented, a player wouldn't simply send a dm a tell in game to request one. That would be too arbitrary. The most likely cases, in which an outlander learns to speak either language, would be if the outlander is initiated into a native based faction, and after having enough in-game years and developing role play to support the character earning the token.
Basically, just like in the world we all share to some degree, language is a valuable resource, than can open up or create doors. When you have a setting, where cloak and dagger secrecy is paramount, and information gathered by factions can make grand or minor impact on the dynamics. Ensuring that characters merit the language proficiency/token can be important to over all plot integridy.
Would other languages from nearby domains be included in the system, extending beyond Balok and Luktar?
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Beside Balok and Luktar, I'd strongly suggest racial languages. I know there's tons of human languages, and it would be near impossible to implement them all. But things like elven, hin, dwarvish, orc, etc. That is in my opinion as special as Balok or Luktar.
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Ideally: racial languages, Balok, Luktar, other Ravenloft-native languages, Cant, Racial Languages
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Ideally: racial languages, Balok, Luktar, other Ravenloft-native languages, Cant, Racial Languages
Undercommon. Common. Native Lingo, Race Lingo, and a babble fish please.
~Rex :twisted:
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Necessities- Balok, Luktar, Elven, Halfling, Dwarven, Gnomish, Theives Cant
Possibiles- Draconic (for mages), Lamordian, Mordentish, Darkonese, Undercommon and/or Drow, Abyssal (though I always imagine this language to be more the sounds of screaming children on fire and women being raped and pigs being slaughtered and men wailing and gnashing their teeth, then an actual language formed of words).
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Hi guys,
I would like to know if its possible to find a Luktar dictionary on the web. I already try the "one" on the NWNRavenloft website but theres only few words.
Thanks in advance!
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Luktar is a fake language really, and not one of the ones made by Tolkein with a real language behind it :P There are a few words in the Doomsday Gazeteer. If you can find Luktars real world Analogy (can't remember what it is for the life of me) you can use that if you wish to RP speaking Luktar.
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I believe it's based on hungarian though, so I don't see why we couldn't monopolize that language
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Thank you guys!
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Always wanted a language tool but was told DM's hated it because is spammed the DM channel, (Man those Dm's are such whiners) :D
But the whole language issue comes and goes, when I joined it seemed half the server spoke Undercommon and Drow. I say post your character description on the forums and list the langauges your pc speaks.
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I read this thread over since it seems to affect my character about every other day it seems (more or less).
Wandering along, minding her own business, some character Ruxie has never seen before who looks too bizarre to be a native (or worse, is fey) accosts her... in Balok.
Intelligence talk is all good and done, but intelligence only measures ~potential~ of learning and capacity, not opoortunity.
I've done a lot of native study to put into her rp, much reading. Natives are like so (From Ravenloft material on natives):
"From time to time, strange people might appear with strange clothes and languages, who might claim to be from some land far away. Its best to keep your distance from these type; they're often magic-using types, and always trouble."
The only difference in reality we share is "From time to time" should be "Every five minutes".
Ruxie is just about as friendly as any native should ever be (to be honest, she should be a lot *less* friendly, but due to conventions and limitations of the server, that's not really feasible; she's outnumbered in her own land) and she would never even consider teaching one of those "queer" outlander folk three words of Balok (she's barely able to sleep lightly around them).
In a marketplace? We're not speaking Balok. Heck, a Barovian would be downright rude and more anxious to get an outlander away from their stall immediately before their neighbors note they are dealing with suspect outsiders to the point of near-hostility.
It's just not plausible, or really believable honestly and kind of absurd to the point Natives should just assume anyone speaking Balok is using witchery to do it and get a fire going.
I can write any number of things into my background I please to justify anything, but don't just because it's just silly.
*Ruxie makes an appointment with the good Count's secretary to discuss valid concerns about Barovia's illegal immigration crisis!* Ha!
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I never really liked the idea of a common or trade language. Before this server I always imagined that characters new to ravenloft suddenly found themselves speaking the language the nearest populated area. This would be in a fairly crude yet serviceable enough way, a few months to pick up the grammar well enough to converse with subtlety. If the dark powers can alter someone's perceptions and memory, Darkon's false history for example, it isn't much of a stretch to imagine that they might give people a little babelfish nudge so they can get onto effecting/being effected by the world all the faster.
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That's how it often works in PnP, but not always and is left at the DM's discretion. But here I think the consensus is that outlanders do not learn Balok on the fly when coming in.
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By and large there is no common tongue at all in Ravenloft.
That's why in most low-level adventures in Barovia I've seen, the preface usually suggests PCs hire a guide.
Wouldn't that be interesting if only natives could talk to PCs in Vallaki/Barovia and outlanders had to hire a guide to do their dealings!
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That's how it often works in PnP, but not always and is left at the DM's discretion. But here I think the consensus is that outlanders do not learn Balok on the fly when coming in.
Which I think might be a better way of doing it, too late now, but maybe sometime in the future with a new server it's an option to think of. The introduction could be as simple as, talk to petre, conversation is garbled at first but suddenly starts to make sense. Characters who grasped the language this way wouldn't have any of the subtlety of a native or learned speaker, so players who make the effort to roleplay traditional greetings and words still hold easily identifiable uniqueness.
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Well, for campaigns in PnP, it's mainly a matter of conveniency as it would be horrible for a DM to run a campaign where the players understand nothing and it'd make it all the longer before getting to the good stuff (it's no fun being a tourist in a foreign language and having to rely on signs and pointing at things to get a message across).
In the module however, we don't have that problem as it's persistant and thus there is no rush. Also, it helps with the whole xenophobic feeling of Barovia when outlanders don't grasp the local tongue. You feel all the more isolated when you don't know what those people on the streets say.
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In the module however, we don't have that problem as it's persistant and thus there is no rush. Also, it helps with the whole xenophobic feeling of Barovia when outlanders don't grasp the local tongue. You feel all the more isolated when you don't know what those people on the streets say.
I actually think it detracts from it, because every single person you run into speaks common. What business does a peasant have speaking fluent trade tongue? Or more importantly, what business does a xenophobic, superstitious peasant have knowing a second language at all in a culturally homogeneous area?
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Well... To my knowledge Balok is the trade tongue of the Core.. So a pidgin balok wouldnt be to hard to pick up, especially not by those characters who have spent alot of time in Barovia and perhaps even made some travelling around the Core. After all there are quite a few characters that have been around here for over 1 year real time, for them to still not understand any balok would be rediculous.
Especially since certain classes even have a place to potentially learn the language.
Of course I would balk at any non-ravenloft native speaking fluent Balok or Luktar without a heavy accent, hell even the Gundarakites often have a heavy accent when speaking Balok and quite a few are technically born barovian of them, ie born after the war..
But since its not doable to have every NPC not speak "common" since that would just be annoying and eliminate alot of the newer players. And then again, who says "common" on Toril is the same as "common" in Eberron or for that matter Oerth? All those worlds contain a whole lot of different languages and since Common is a mix of languages native to each world, guess the rest ;)
Who says that Elven and Elven is the same? Torilite elves would probably not understand much of what an ebberonite elf says since both languages have evolved differently over time even if they happen to have a common origin. It´s the same as Elven and Drow languages, both of those languages have evolved for millenia outside of each other to the point that an elf and a drow probably would understand very little if they spoke to each other in their native tongues(if they now would have a reason to speak instead of impaling each other)...
Conclusion: It would just make a huge mess of everything if everything was to hard-core. ;)
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Just to clarify, as it's been mentioned many times in the few books I've of Ravenloft there is no common/trade tongue in Ravenloft.
If you were to pick one language available, Balok or Luktar definitely wouldn't be it. Barovia's population is in the extreme end of the insular scale.
I doubt even after of seeing you every day over a year's time, a native would trust you 100% or even 75% if you were an outlander honestly. Just given the facts and feel the things I've read state.
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Don't anyone forget the Balok isn't a language restricted to Barovia. It's the 'national language' of Invidia and Borca as well as being the second most common spoken language in several neighbouring domains.
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Conclusion: It would just make a huge mess of everything if everything was to hard-core. ;)
I played Wei the monk for about 2-3 frustrating weeks... he spoke only Mandarin Chinese. It was a TOTAL headspin but man did it slow stuff down... it would take about 5 minutes just to convey introductions... he picked up a working vocab of 25-50 words and concepts of whatever language the majority of outlanders speak before the crash (he was never remade) but spoke mainly in Chinese with the odd word of 'common'... if anyone has seen the US series Deadwood, the barowners communication with the head Chinese Dude in the mining town would be Wei on a good day and that frustrated the Barowner to no end.
Hard core just bogs things down.
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There seems to be some miscommunication, I'm not advocating that people should role play not knowing the language. What I'm suggesting is that people automatically learn the language on entering Barovia, similar sorts of mind bending effects attributed to domains are all through the official Ravenloft canon.
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I have to say that since I started playing a native Barovian a few months back I have been astounded at how common Outlanders that speak the native language are. This detracts from playing a native because of course you cannot have private conversations in your own language because everyone knows it.
I would suggest a language token. All natives get one on creation and those characters which are seen trying to learn the language can over time earn this token , maybe even a crafting like skill ? This would make it a gamble to claim to speak (B) in case a dm catches you and gives some penalty, and whats more if something happens because of this i.e. arrest or witch burning, if the knowledge came from someone that couldn't speak the language.......it would certainly halt he said she said arguments...... I certainly would think some of the established characters would obviously speak it by now having been there for years (again depending on effort and past times). You may allow for quick tokens for guards as learning the language would be part of their training a la French Foreign Legion and I'm sure there is more to consider . This would at least give some value to the language and much more weight to the Outlander spy that hears native speaking things of interest rather then just conveniently declaring you speak the language and then running off and repeating what you heard. POTM is a land of intrigue, and that's why I like it. I like that it takes weeks of real time to trust someone enough to show you are evil or a witch or whatever. This seems like a cheap short cut to make things happen, which sadly I must say I have seen in other forms as well. I do not think this is a life or death matter, but i do feel it would give more value to natives which have a lot to work against already. There are many things I cant do because I'm a native, I don't use spells in front of others, I watch what and who I associate with , I do not openly buy magic items and I am happy to do it, but to take my language on a convenient desire to know whats being said in a way cheapens the sacrifice native players make.I am not saying all or even most players are guilty of this, but the few who are take away from the play of others. This is an amazing server, and this issue is not going to make or break it, but this suggestion is in the spirit of the culture you are trying to build here, I believe.
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Don't anyone forget the Balok isn't a language restricted to Barovia. It's the 'national language' of Invidia and Borca as well as being the second most common spoken language in several neighbouring domains.
Exactly.. Balok is probably one of the more common languages around. Barovia is also the first land to enter the mists, and therefor its not such a large stretch to imagine that many of the later nations merchants that wished to establish trade with Barovia or a neighboring land learned Balok.. Ie, a pidgin Balok is probably the "common" of the Core aka the "trade tongue", especially in the southern parts of the Core..
Add to that that especially mage(in particular wizards) have the easiest time learning Balok of all characters outside the guard faction or rebels.. Wizards benefit from high Int and possibly a teacher.. So for a long staying mage to have learnt Balok is no stretch.. Neither is it for alot of the native outlanders, especially if they come from one of Barovias border countries.
But, a newly arrived non-"ravenloft" native character spoke Balok, I would say its a big no no.. It takes a long time to master a language, years even..
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I'd agree that maybe Balok would be a trade language for the south, but all of the books seem to suggest if there is a universal language it's likely to be Mordentish. For the same reasons it's real world counterpart english is the defacto international language. Not only is it the language of literature, with almost all printed materials coming out of mordentish speaking countries. It's also the language of the Core's most advanced cultures, making it the defacto language of learning.
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I might be wrong here... But Low mordentish is less widespread than Balok even... Sure it´s common in the civilized lands, but theres not that many at rennainsance(or however its spelled) level out there.. Most of those are located in the west Core I think..
Well.. I´m no Ravenloft Guru like Bluebomber and really need to polish up my knowledge again :lol:
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Cornelius came through the mists as a very young child - he was taken in by a family in Dementlieu, where he was given a good education and taught to speak High & Low Mordentish - he was later taken by the mists from Dementlieu and sent to Barovia - likely as a punishment or curse - and through a generation of living with and converting select Barovians, he learned Balok, though he cannot speak as eloquently in it as he can in Mordentish... With a 14 Int & 20 Wis, I don't see this as a far-fetched possibility... He barely remembers any of the "Common" he was born into, (Outlander)---
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I've found this topic looking for in the mists of the time!
This fits really good with some doubt that raised in my mind.
Having seen a lot of players who emote "[Balok]" (characters who have undoubtedly Balok names), so I asked to Arden (hope I can talk about you :mrgreen:) why they have the necessity to emote [Balok]. I asked it because I've always thinked that all characters (native, outlanders, etc.) speak Balok (someone better then others, someone worse than others).
Arden explained me that the english = common and Balok needs to be emoted.
Needing for better explaination, I asked it to Imojina's player (in italian obviously).
He explain me that Common is the language of the Outlanders (from everywere they came).
My doubts begun to become more deep about this distintion, reading the first post in this topic:
I'd like to remind everyone that learning such languages would be about impossible for outlanders as it would mean natives would be teaching them and natives tend to be xenophobic as hell.
Fortunately, it's not the case of my pc who is native of Ravenloft (In fact, at least in the universities there would be undoubtedly double-language books)
Well, unfortunately I'm still doubtful about the languages that my own character can know.
As I knew:
10 Int: one language-> Common for outlanders, balok for natives, Luktar for gundaraks
12 Int: Two languages
14 Int: Three languages
and so on..
At least this is for starting characters.. Of course would racial languages be implemented as well.. Dwarves would get dwarven + common, native barovians would get balok + common, gundarakites would probably get Luktar+balok+common and so on as base languages and then extra languages based on int mod.. And no outlander can begin knowing balok, luktar or any of the other native ravenloft languages except for common-low mordentish..
And those native to barovia would probably not have picked up any outsider languages except for common, which is a bit essential for RP.
Then, my character, Augustus, has 14 int and he is able to know 3 languages
Creating him I thinked that he must know:
1. [Dakonian]: He's mother tongue.
2. [Darkonian Elvish]: I've understood from gazetters that it's something similar to the Sithican. He is born in Nevuchar Springs. About 89% of the 1100 citizens of Nevuchar are Elves. So Augustus have to know this sort of Elvish (well or bad it's meaningless).
3. [Balok]: I thinked that he must know Balok (even if badly), because he is Ezrite and the first Book, certainly, shoudl be written in balok (even if could be translated in darkonian). Every priest know the official language of his church (isn't the balok the official language of Ezra's faith? as is Latin for the catholic church?). And however, bastion Raines in darkon certainly knows Balok and learned it to his followers.
So... if Augustus knows these 3 languages... he is not able to speak/learn Common = English because he's only 14 int!
How can I do? Obviously I could assume that he knew/learned Common and he didn't know or Balok or Elvish... but it would seem to me meaningless... :cry:
I like playing characters as well as possible. :mrgreen:
And so, suggestions are welcome! :)
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I'll throw my dice in here as well..
First note that NWN doesn't have a language system.
I'm talking bare bones NWN.
The only possibly language system is when a NPC in the game from the original campaign does something like: *Says a few curt words in a gutterish language you can't understand*.
NWN still doesn't have a language system, LESS! you use haks and whatnot. In which case there's haks out there that'll implement the INT:Language ratio language stuff.
So at the moment 'less a DM sends you a tell staying that if you should continue doing what you're currently doing you'll get banned...then at most people will be a slightly miffed at you.
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Yes I know, I get in people's face
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And really, with a good base of RP and if you have IC history to base it on, then why not? If I play a character for the next 1-2 real life years and he hangs around Barovian cities and villages. I might start RPing that he can speak a heavily accented Barok. *shrugs*
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I'll throw my dice in here as well..
NWN still doesn't have a language system, LESS! you use haks and whatnot. In which case there's haks out there that'll implement the INT:Language ratio language stuff.
So at the moment 'less a DM sends you a tell staying that if you should continue doing what you're currently doing you'll get banned...then at most people will be a slightly miffed at you.
WTF?
You can post whatever you like about language systems and so forth... the only time I've seen anything resembling a rebuke for suggesting server updates is when someone kept pushing on the Dev team to implement a subdual system.
Thats IF you want to implement as a SYSTEM thing (Forgotten Realms of Cormyr have Language down well)...
If from a RP perspective, roleplay however you want - unless you have 8 Int and speak all languages like a scholar then I dont see the issue.
I have a Mordent fighter with 14 Int - 3 languages. High and Low Mordent and Balok (with accent from one of the countries between Mordent / Demienteu and Barovia.)
I have a dwarven warrior with 12 Int - Native - Dwarven and Balok
I also have a Kara-Tur warrior - guess what? Hes been illiterate in Balok for 12 months real life time (so 2-3 years game time) and only now is getting it. I got around the whole Balok issue with the Mists somehow made it possible for him to understand the local language...
Having RP-ed a character that DID NOT speak any Ravenloft languages (He spoke Mandarin and I used Pin Yin romanisation to type) its a massive pain in the arse to RP not knowing any local language.
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When i first made Ain'a she did not speak nor understand any common nor regular elven, i had to translate everything from Tolkien elven.. i gave up and made a deal with myself in her new incarnation. She's more or less a parrot when it comes to words she hears, repeating them often.
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My question was about roleplay.
Because yesterday I got to know that my pc should know at least 4 language (Darkonian, Elvish, Balok, Common) but he has only 14 Intelligence and I don't know how to do.
Or do anyone think that I'm making problems by myself? :lol:
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You get common for free, same as Dwarves get DWarven free and Elves get Elven free *nods*
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How can I get Common for free?
Can Ravenloftian natives get Common for free, even if they haven't the intelligence needed for learn Common?
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Ah right yes sorry didn't read your guy was native.
Well in that case no you don't get it for free then i'd assume, but most DM's tend ot have alot of native NPC's speak in common just becuase its easier, but by all means you can RP your guy not knowing common. Although i'd personally think knowing common would be better than elvish. Vasham has 14 int but only really knows Common and Balok, i don't RP him knowing Elvish or anything else becuase ICly why would he want to speak like an elf? Same goes for Negnar :P
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:lol:
Augustus would speak Elvish, because he is born in a nearly 90% elvish town.
He is only less racist against elves because he is darkonian. :mrgreen:
He wouldn't have any problems to know elvis, maybe for his BG he would need to know elvish [truly the Darkonian Elvish]
I've this problem because I don't know if can understand people when they speak Balok or Native (ravenloft) elvish.
I'd NEVER speak Elvish in Barovia if there are blind-minded people listening. (i.e. native barovians)
Edit:
However, I think that a good solution for me could be the following:
1. Augustus knows Darkonian. [he is native darkonian]
2. He knows also Elvish [as said before]
3. He knows Common [I do not why... but it is so, otherwise I cannot speak with you all :mrgreen:]
4. Being an intelligent pc [14] he knows ONLY the Balok words written in the Books of Ezra and their meaning, but he is not able to communicate or understand fully in Balok.
What do you think about it?
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That's sounds alright to me... I myself RP Vasham and Negnar knowing certain phases and such in elven (Vasham's being to communicate and negnar's being to insult them). I think that really you only need to count it as a known language if your able to speak and understand it completely, so that would be an okay compromise in my opinion
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Okay, time for me to clear up a few misconceptions:
1. There is no "common" in Ravenloft
2. If you're from Darkon, you are called "Darkonese" not "Darkonian" (same goes for the language you speak)
3. Being a native to some other domain in Ravenloft won't make you more appealing in the eyes of Barovians
4. A language system for NWN doesn't need a hak, it just needs to be scripted. I've experienced a fully functional language system on a server with NO haks whatsoever. In fact, Zarathustra217 has told me that a language system could be worked into our existing emote system, but he hasn't had the time to implement it as it is quite complex.
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I'm all for a language system to be put in place. Unfortunately, most of the current systems spam the DM channel, which I think... sucks. :lol:
However, if we could get one put in, it would be a nice touch. I've played on MUD's before that even gave languages a ranking based on your knowledge/familiarity of it. That way you could pick up words here and there, getting better as you experience the language around you. If you learned a language and you weren't perfect with it and you would still miss some words to show your general grasp of the language.
Two people for example with 25% and 75% knowledge of dwarven would be sitting by the fire, listening to two dwarves conversing in their native tongue.
Both hears the following sentence: You should have seen me. Whacked that zombie in two!.
The 25% guy hears: [Dwarven: Ien should drak mest me. Erkest tor zombie de two!]
The 75% guy hears: [Dwarven: You should drak seen me. Whacked tor zombie de two!]
You could either make the language improve by being immersed in it, or through some kind of skill points, similar to how crafting has separate levels and experience. Either way could prove amusing if the person types the sentence he wants in a foreign tongue that he has a minimal grasp of only to have the result be far different. Ultimately, we are at the mercy of whatever Soren is capable of scripting and the time that he has available.
As to the 'common'. All the outlanders and natives (whether of Barovia or another nation) are speaking something in common. Am I to take it that we are speaking Balok then? Ravenous made mention that it might be more likely for outlanders to pick up Low Mordentish as the natives may be more than a little bit reluctant in teaching foreigners Balok.
Considering that we have a server made up of a dramatic number of folks brought in from other planes, language may be something that we need to keep vague. After all elvish on Krynn is probably different than elvish on Athas or Toril. Human languages are probably as numerous and as different as the humans themselves.
Just my thoughts.
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I'm all for a language system to be put in place. Unfortunately, most of the current systems spam the DM channel, which I think... sucks. :lol:
However, if we could get one put in, it would be a nice touch. I've played on MUD's before that even gave languages a ranking based on your knowledge/familiarity of it. That way you could pick up words here and there, getting better as you experience the language around you. If you learned a language and you weren't perfect with it and you would still miss some words to show your general grasp of the language.
Two people for example with 25% and 75% knowledge of dwarven would be sitting by the fire, listening to two dwarves conversing in their native tongue.
Both hears the following sentence: You should have seen me. Whacked that zombie in two!.
The 25% guy hears: [Dwarven: Ien should drak mest me. Erkest tor zombie de two!]
The 75% guy hears: [Dwarven: You should drak seen me. Whacked tor zombie de two!]
You could either make the language improve by being immersed in it, or through some kind of skill points, similar to how crafting has separate levels and experience. Either way could prove amusing if the person types the sentence he wants in a foreign tongue that he has a minimal grasp of only to have the result be far different.
That's a lot more complex than I think is necessary. I'd prefer a simple system where either you speak/understand the language or you don't
Ultimately, we are at the mercy of whatever Soren is capable of scripting and the time that he has available.
He's more than capable of scripting it, it's just time-consuming and he's the only one who knows how to do it. ;)
As to the 'common'. All the outlanders and natives (whether of Barovia or another nation) are speaking something in common. Am I to take it that we are speaking Balok then? Ravenous made mention that it might be more likely for outlanders to pick up Low Mordentish as the natives may be more than a little bit reluctant in teaching foreigners Balok.
Considering that we have a server made up of a dramatic number of folks brought in from other planes, language may be something that we need to keep vague. After all elvish on Krynn is probably different than elvish on Athas or Toril. Human languages are probably as numerous and as different as the humans themselves.
Just my thoughts.
The comment about common was directed at whomever said they had a Ravenloft native who spoke "common." Ravenloft has no native "common tongue," though several native languages are widespread (in particular, Balok, Mordentish and Vaasi).
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I like to throw ideas at the wall. Sometimes things stick.
As far as 'common' goes. Some language is currently the 'common' tongue of our server. We just haven't figured out which one it is. Whether it's Balok, Mordentish, etc. Then again, I don't see why creating a server specific 'trade tongue' that isn't canon is such a bad thing. Sometimes we adjust our server due to canon materials/requirements. I don't see why canon can't move for us when we need it to. After all, Ravenloft wasn't created with this video game concept of a persistent world in mind. :lol:
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I don't like the common tongue scenario at all. I'd much preffer to think of it as everyone transplanted by the mists has the knowledge of the language placed into their mind. That's usually what happens in pnp. It doesn't have to be a grasp on the finer details of the language, so balok native speakers could still shift into using a mountain dialect or something for privacy. But as it is, everyone you meet, no matter how rural ignorant and dirt poor they are, seems to be able to speak common as a second language, perfectly. That's screwy. Better to just do away with it all together and have the knowledge of the common language of the area is supplanted into their heads.
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I was saying the possibility of the 'common tongue' simply being the tongue in 'common' with each other. So, the question would be: Which tongue is it? Do outlanders come in with the knowledge of Balok? Low Mordentish? Whatever?
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I know, that's basically what I'm suggesting, but I was told rather explicitly, by many people that that wasn't how it was on the server. Rather it was a trade language, that everyone spoke.
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Yep...
Its really there simply to avoid annoying situations such as trying to purchase a chicken from a certain bear-hin.
*cough* Anyways. I tend to go with the idea that your Native language and the "common" tongue are free...
The rest go for INT base... Although it seems of late alot less people are knowing esoteric languages like Draconic, Infernal, or Abyssal in favor of the more commonly spoken ones, Dwarven, Elven, etc. And thats a good thing, imho.
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Well usually languages like Abyssal sounds like something of a mix of a Alien gurgling molasses and a multi-fanged crab-spider with a speech impediment...and it sounds awful..and I think you'd probably get looked at funny or announced a witch because it sounds so insanely evil.
But yah I go by where you're born, the INT bonus, and perhaps if you've picked up a word or two.
Like Briareos for example has 13INT, he already knows Common cause well he's an "outsider" and he comes from the world where Common is well common, he also speaks elven because he's half-elf and comes from a elven commuinity, and that's about it.
If he ever tries to take up another language (via another Int point,etc.) It'll be whatever will help him the most to survive.
Though I've yet to meet anyone that spoke anything but the tongue that everyone seems to understand and the odd person who speaks elven...though sadly they all ignore poor Briareos when he speaks elven as well :(
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This thread has nine pages - a lot to read, so could someone post up what was the decision made about language tool?
As a quick sidenote, I feel that most fun comes out of learning new languages IC ^^
I've met many who at start know 4-5 languages, having the intelligence to support it as well, but never wanted to go to that myself. Delardious speaks whatever is the common language in Faerün, Dragonic (old arcanist and has a pseudo-dragon familiar, so..) and little tiny bits of elven - well, he doesn't actually speak elven, but might get the main point in what someone is saying.
Zarlaste speaks also Faerün's common, Drow and Elven - Elven he never uses and despises every other Drow who would speak it. Which is why he hasn't revealed that he understands it..
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Languages being based on intelligence has always somewhat annoyed me. I know people who speak plenty of languages, and they're not all that "smart." ;)
A language system isn't really that critical. Plenty of other things that would be helpful to spend time working on. Leather-crafting, wood-working (which, as far as I know, is still the same), etc.
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I have a Borcan char and gave for granted she knows Balok. It's been month since I play her and I have given for granted she knew common, since I have been using it all of the time. But she's int 10. I would like to have some clearifications as well. Thanks.
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Languages being based on intelligence has always somewhat annoyed me. I know people who speak plenty of languages, and they're not all that "smart." ;)
Agreed. To each their own, though I go by what my PC would ICly know or learn. Enjoy it more that way. :P
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Speaks japanese to bill gates and he'll look at you like a muffin
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The significance of what languages a character knows in our setting depends more on plot and story development than game-adventuring mechanics.
Take the Gundarakites for example, with the rebel faction. Knowledge learned icly is what drives plot development. Characters are either effected directly or indirectly by these plot advancements. A great deal of sensitive information is conveyed in either luktar or balok. If any outlander could just pick up luktar or balok without having been taught the language, they are gaining a valuable resource that might not be supported by role play.
Those rare outlanders who have been taken into the confidence of native luktar and balok speakers, should enjoy the possibility of learning the language. Language use is an extremely valuable rp resource, and eventually implenenting a language token system will help ensure it remains valuable by preventing every other outlander from simply saying they know luktar or (and) balok.
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Speaks japanese to bill gates and he'll look at you like a muffin
Well, he spent his language slot on Infernal didnt he?
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The significance of what languages a character knows in our setting depends more on plot and story development than game-adventuring mechanics.
Take the Gundarakites for example, with the rebel faction. Knowledge learned icly is what drives plot development. Characters are either effected directly or indirectly by these plot advancements. A great deal of sensitive information is conveyed in either luktar or balok. If any outlander could just pick up luktar or balok without having been taught the language, they are gaining a valuable resource that might not be supported by role play.
Those rare outlanders who have been taken into the confidence of native luktar and balok speakers, should enjoy the possibility of learning the language. Language use is an extremely valuable rp resource, and eventually implenenting a language token system will help ensure it remains valuable by preventing every other outlander from simply saying they know luktar or (and) balok.
So prehaps the key is here there is THREE major languages...
Outlander (Common) - lets assume for some dumb ass reason ALL common accross the multiverse of DM worlds is the same
Balok
Modentish
(Luktar is only spoken by downtrodden peasants conquered by Barovia or their rebel scum - hardly worth a mention)
Which means that OUTLANDERS have a code language. It also means that unless a Native has learned outlander then there is little commincation thats gonna happen short of magical intervention, DM quest driving language into a players brain or a translator...ooooooh good RP idea!
Balok is the Native language - this means that Xeno phobia is even MORE pronounced - Damn outlanders cant understand a proper language.
Mordentish is likely the 2nd language of local nobility and also travellers when Balok is not used.
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Well, he spent his language slot on Infernal didnt he?
He didn't have to. That's his native tongue. He spent his language slot on English. I'm 99% confidant that Bill Gates is a real tiefling. His mess of a mop that he calls hair hides the horns. :devil:
On an on topic note, I like Helaman's ideas. Personally, though I'd like stricter regulation in learning languages. You need to learn the language somewhere, and some languages are unlikely to be learned without having come in significant, prolonged contact with those races, like dwarven or elven. Also, outlanders are unlikely to come through the mists automatically knowing any of the languages of the Core. If this topic gets serious consideration, maybe languages should be granted after approval through application like subraces/PrCs. Maybe the upcoming OnPlayerChat function in 1.69 may make languages easier to code in.
*Sometimes I think I'm addicted to the RPG variation of sadomasochism.*
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You do occassionally get players who are misted at an earlier age and have both... I believe the Bishop has that background for his RP though Outlander is forgotten...
This really sounds good... a language/page on start up after you pick race and those starting background options...
Pick a native language
Menu
*Note that for convenience all Outlander faction speak Common unless you have an Intelligence of 8... then its all much simplier because you don't care what language - you point and grunt and visa versa.
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I've noticed this trend increasing so i am Necromancing this thread to remind everyone that you can't learn a new language over a weekend. even with a teacher it will take several years.
Also bear in mind the following.
A Barovian/Gundarakite who teaches their language to an outlander would likely be considered to be dangerously "outlander tainted" at best and a race-trator at worse, Especially if the Outlander was a non human.
And Elves spend decades In their formative years learning to communicate with other elves as such learning anything but the most rudimentary elvish communication should be the work of a (human) lifetime.
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Elves start speaking when they are 5 years old and have an "acceptable" level of knowledge of their language when they are 18 years old.
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EO mon calisse d'criss de tabernak de chummy du bonyeu de saint-ciboire du père. M'a t'y crisser une volée a Crule, sera pas long.
'Swing la bacaisse dans le fond de la boîte a bois, mouehehee.
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The above is known as 'jouale' slang french canadian. A french speaking person, from france could not understand this, only those who are 'local' to said slang could.
I can guarantee you, if I applied the same stretch of slang to in game and Emoted [Heavy Balok Slang] you couldn't understand a word, and I am just referring to the 'voiced' part of the language, the rest comes with body language and cultural signs.
Hell, I'm from Ontario and I've a fair bit of friends and family from Quebec... I remember one occasion when I ran into some friends from home while I was hanging out with my friends from Quebec and they (my friends from home) couldn't understand what we were talking about despite the fact that they speak French themselves. We're talking about an hour's drive away and the slang being used is that drastically different, so I kind of agree that languages would be very difficult to pick up on if you're not familiar with them at all, and people are speaking in different dialects or using local slang from various regions. There is some merit however, to having an easier time learning a language that is somewhat similar to one(s) you already are fluent in. For example, I speak French and English fluently, and I've noticed that often I can piece together what's being said in other Latin-based languages even though I've never studied them.
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hmm...maybe a language tool would be in order. I'd dismissed it in the past, but I've seen it in use before, and it might be useful to avoid this sort of thing....plus rebels could plan stuff in Luktar, etc., which would be really cool :mrgreen:
5 years later it still happens and will always do.
Make it the hard way please!
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it would be cool but i believe they dropped the idea because it will cause a great lag issue.
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The server hardware has improved with time. Maybe it's time for it to get implemented, or even give it a weekend test, IMO.
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http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=27384.0
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The sentiment here was not "lets have a language system"
It was that languages aren't pokemeon cards that you trade or pick up easily, we don't really need a system to govern this. Just a little Player responsibility.
Sadly i can't find the reference. But iirc the rules state that after immersion in a culture for six months you are entitled to a check to see if you can learnt eh rudiments of the language. The check is a DC 30 int check, -1 for each month you have been in the country.
So no, it's not easy unless you're a super-genius.
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The sentiment here was not "lets have a language system"
It was that languages aren't pokemeon cards that you trade or pick up easily, we don't really need a system to govern this. Just a little Player responsibility.
I Believe the " Player Responsability" has not worked much for now.
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The sentiment here was not "lets have a language system"
It was that languages aren't Pokemon cards that you trade or pick up easily, we don't really need a system to govern this. Just a little Player responsibility.
Sadly i can't find the reference. But uric the rules state that after immersion in a culture for six months you are entitled to a check to see if you can learnt eh rudiments of the language. The check is a DC 30 int check, -1 for each month you have been in the country.
So no, it's not easy unless you're a super-genius.
so is a 22 int in the super-Genius Catagory ? I have learned and am sill learning my last language, i will then have 6 language. My Toon actually teaches languages and has held classes of the core in multiple places before. Its basic structure no in dept learning. Just common words, like bathroom, food, and such.
My Toon also private tutor as well , this is when i get a dm involved and asked his Opinion based on the other char how many sessions. Only have done this once and for each session i charge 100 fangs an hour. I usually block out 4 hours a sessions.
Is this reasonable?
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DC 30 int check means that you would need an int of 30 (+10 bonus in total) to have a 5% of making your roll after 6 months,and that is just for a rudimentary understanding.
The rules don't go into specific cases such as tutporing and such, but such instances are mentioned earlier in the thread.
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The rules are on the harsh side and probably more indicative of monolinguistic Anglosaxon culture's perceptions of how difficult it is to learn foreign language than is actually the case. I think that immersing a near-genius level person (Int 18+) into a culture for six months would get you a heck of a lot better chances than just 5% to get a "rudimentary" level. But that's quibbling over details.
My own character, Anastacia, learnt Balok from natives who owed her money or debts; she would accept language lessons instead of gold, something many were happy to accept. She also bought a PC's fully IC attempt at creating a Common - Balok "dictionary" and educative text. I don't know if the player is still around but it's a really neat set of books.
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It took Eliza a good fifteen years to learn both Luktar and Balok >.>
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I like to think that our playerbase is responsible enough not to abuse things. I have no issues with someone RPing knowing a few basic things in another language, I have in the past myself and you can have fun with that sort of thing. Maybe the Barovian who taught you how to say these few things hates Outlanders and told you something offensive instead of the actual thing you think you're saying. I don't know. I found language tools neat, but I rather like being able to read what other people are saying... some of our players are rather amusing at times and I'd hate to miss out on that.
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It took Eliza a good fifteen years to learn both Luktar and Balok >.>
Quite a feat when you consider only 6 years have passed in-game :P
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Another issue with the language tool is that you'd have to script it so that it leaves things between brackets untranslated so that you can emote, or use proper names and things like that without having to switch languages back and forth constantly.
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I like to think that our playerbase is responsible enough not to abuse things. I have no issues with someone RPing knowing a few basic things in another language, I have in the past myself and you can have fun with that sort of thing. Maybe the Barovian who taught you how to say these few things hates Outlanders and told you something offensive instead of the actual thing you think you're saying. I don't know. I found language tools neat, but I rather like being able to read what other people are saying... some of our players are rather amusing at times and I'd hate to miss out on that.
Thanks to Sofiya the only Phrase grevis knows in Balok is "I'll gut you outlander"
Of course she told him it meant "You are quite handsome."
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It took Eliza a good fifteen years to learn both Luktar and Balok >.>
Quite a feat when you consider only 6 years have passed in-game :P
She's local :P Silly Blue!
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I like to think that our playerbase is responsible enough not to abuse things. I have no issues with someone RPing knowing a few basic things in another language, I have in the past myself and you can have fun with that sort of thing. Maybe the Barovian who taught you how to say these few things hates Outlanders and told you something offensive instead of the actual thing you think you're saying. I don't know. I found language tools neat, but I rather like being able to read what other people are saying... some of our players are rather amusing at times and I'd hate to miss out on that.
Thanks to Sofiya the only Phrase grevis knows in Balok is "I'll gut you outlander"
Of course she told him it meant "You are quite handsome."
See this is exactly what I'm talking about, there's cheesing, and then there's creative and amusing use of it within reasonable limits such as this.
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It took Eliza a good fifteen years to learn both Luktar and Balok >.>
Quite a feat when you consider only 6 years have passed in-game :P
She's local :P Silly Blue!
:oops:
Anyway, in regards to the language tool thing, I'd still personally like to see it, but Soren really dislikes the idea. He feels it creates an elitist atmosphere. I'm not sure it would, but I respect his decision anyway.
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it's okay about the langauge tool, i just think we need some offical ruleing on languages and how we take it on.
is the trade tounge and native language of the char free and we can then select another for each int modifyer?
something in that line, just so we all are on the same page.
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it's okay about the langauge tool, i just think we need some offical ruleing on languages and how we take it on.
is the trade tounge and native language of the char free and we can then select another for each int modifyer?
something in that line, just so we all are on the same page.
Hmm, well I'll bring it up at the next developer's meeting since we'll have to make a rule for it.
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No rules, bring the tools! It's not elitist.
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No rules, bring the tools! It's not elitist.
I would be inclined to agree, it's just the way things work. If one doesn't know what another is saying, then they should not have the slightest clue as to what is being said, aside from body language and tone.
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No rules, bring the tools! It's not elitist.
I would be inclined to agree, it's just the way things work. If one doesn't know what another is saying, then they should not have the slightest clue as to what is being said, aside from body language and tone.
+1
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is the trade tounge and native language of the char free and we can then select another for each int modifyer?
something in that line, just so we all are on the same page.
I had asked this question of a DM in the past (I forget which one now though) and that was the answer I was given yes.
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You may want to think about the disadvantages of a language tool.
It may have a few advantages, but considering a long list of disadvantages that i can think of, the simple tagging that is used today looks by far better to me.
About a learning roll: DC 30 after 6 months? And -1 for each months exceeding 6? ... Time to get me a dm for that roll for my characters!
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You may want to think about the disadvantages of a language tool.
It may have a few advantages, but considering a long list of disadvantages that i can think of, the simple tagging that is used today looks by far better to me.
About a learning roll: DC 30 after 6 months? And -1 for each months exceeding 6? ... Time to get me a dm for that roll for my characters!
I'm not sure if that's right, it's been a while sinc ei found that referance in the books, but it's something like that.
you'd also probably sound like a 4yr old trying to speak the language as is it only a *Basic* understanding.
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On a side note, when people are speaking forign languages, its good they put (B) or [L] as prefix... some spell out Balok, Luktar.. some even spell out what they sound like. This is great at first, but it doesnt need to be repeated every sentence when the people in the area do not change... Even if you just say [Speaking in Luktar] and then type away, saves you some time :P
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I like the way languages work right now, because it allows people to make jokes or enhance the mood of an exchange for the players of characters who don't speak a language. The one Jay mentioned earlier about Grevis and the "You look handsome," phrase is great. I've seen people use the fact that a player knows what their character doesn't to great effect, for amusement, humor, dread, and a wide variety of effects that couldn't be done if they player didn't know what the other said. Not to mention the fact I think it creates a more trusting atmosphere for people to have to remind themselves not to metagame. It's good practice, too. Seeing a garda say something in Balok, for instance, and then resist the urge to jump into the conversation at a time that it doesn't matter sets the right tone for not metagaming when it does matter.
That's what I think.
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Ah here it is!!
Though i remind everyone that this is for a reference not an official ruling:
From the Ravenloft DMG page 25:
Using Bonus Languages
Characters from culturally isolated lands (be they Islands of Terror or simply remote villages) may begin the game fluent in only their native domain language, regardless of their intelligence score. If a character leaves her bonus language "slots" empty, she can later fill those slots through total cultural immersion, allowing her to learn languages without having to expend skill points. [...] Once a character decided to learn a language, each month she spends immersed in a foreign culture entitles her to an intelligence check (DC 25) to learn that cultures language. Each additional month spends studying the local tongue (which she can do while engaged in other activities) grants her a cumulative +1 competence bonus on the intelligence check. (Thus after six months of immersion the check drops to 20) Of course, this process is very times consuming [...]
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On a side note, when people are speaking forign languages, its good they put (B) or [L] as prefix... some spell out Balok, Luktar.. some even spell out what they sound like. This is great at first, but it doesnt need to be repeated every sentence when the people in the area do not change... Even if you just say [Speaking in Luktar] and then type away, saves you some time :P
I prefer the tagging of every text.
Reason? Not everybody who "hears" the dialogue is there from the beginning and just walks up later - and how would that one notice that he would not understand a word?
And... you really can never know who's listeing or if someone else may hear you
I'm not sure if that's right, it's been a while sinc ei found that referance in the books, but it's something like that.
you'd also probably sound like a 4yr old trying to speak the language as is it only a *Basic* understanding.
[/quote]
Probably. It depends on the degree of immersion. But if this is limited to what you learn after 6 months, you are most likely right. As a more pragmatic approach, i would deduct the level of understanding from the roll and by how far it exceeds the result required for basic understanding.
Example:
Basic DC is 25, reduced by 18 after a total of 24 months of immersion. So the modified DC is 7.
The roll is 18, exceeding the DC by 11. This indicates much more than a basic understanding, but it would surely not suffice for passing as a local or a scholarly dispute (let's assume that something like a barovian scholar exists :twisted: )
Well... this is at least how knowledge rolls work... and since i am not sure about learning languages, this is just a suggestion.
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Well... this is at least how knowledge rolls work... and since i am not sure about learning languages, this is just a suggestion.
Corrected myself in the post above yours. That is how it works in table top.
Ah here it is!!
Though i remind everyone that this is for a reference not an official ruling:
From the Ravenloft DMG page 25:
Using Bonus Languages
Characters from culturally isolated lands (be they Islands of Terror or simply remote villages) may begin the game fluent in only their native domain language, regardless of their intelligence score. If a character leaves her bonus language "slots" empty, she can later fill those slots through total cultural immersion, allowing her to learn languages without having to expend skill points. [...] Once a character decided to learn a language, each month she spends immersed in a foreign culture entitles her to an intelligence check (DC 25) to learn that cultures language. Each additional month spends studying the local tongue (which she can do while engaged in other activities) grants her a cumulative +1 competence bonus on the intelligence check. (Thus after six months of immersion the check drops to 20) Of course, this process is very times consuming [...]
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But this is Barovia.
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But this is Barovia.
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/36536/1725768-no_this_is_sparta_super.jpg)
But seriously, context please?
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Context? I wonder how one may learn a language in a xenophobic place at the same rate one would learn in any other non-xeno~ country. Maybe the rules should be adjusted to the reality of the setting?
I had one or two guards in my stay here. Always hated ICly how outlanders approuched me speaking balok.
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true, but Barovians will continue to speak Balok around you *if* you can find a teacher it will certainly speed it up. But contextual clues and other common phrases will eventually be learnt by somebody with a high enough Int.
I'm not saying it should be *easy* but i am saying it's hard to be surrounded by a culture and not *evertally* pick up the lingo.
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I think it's worth pointing out that Balok is one of the most widely spoken languages in the western Core and is the main language in Borca, which is a civilized and politically powerful country. I'm just pointing this out because people seem to get annoyed OOC by native non-Barovians speaking Balok when in fact it is a very common language.
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Maybe the OOC concern comes from the fact that people, probably, didn't learn it anywhere else other than Barovia.
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Maybe the OOC concern comes from the fact that people, probably, didn't learn it anywhere else other than Barovia.
Cue MST3K Mantra (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra).
While it's generally true that Barovians are a xenophobic lot, that doesn't mean that all Barovians universally possess the same amount of xenophobia. Also, there's plenty of people willing to overlook their own prejudices if the price is right.
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Well... this is at least how knowledge rolls work... and since i am not sure about learning languages, this is just a suggestion.
Corrected myself in the post above yours. That is how it works in table top.
That was the post my own post was based on. But what i suggested was determining the degree of mastership of the language in addition to that. Like (don't nail me to the values...):
- roll equals the DC or exceeds it by 4: Basic understanding of the language
- roll exceeds the DC by 5 to 9: Fluent, but with a heavy accent and several gaps in the vocabulary, ocassional grammar lapses (so like my english :lol: )
- roll exceeds the DC by 10 to 14: Perfect, but with an accent
- roll exceeds DC by 15 or more: hard to identify as a non-native speaker
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Seems it should be fine to speak basic phrases like, Hello, goodbye, Night, Day, yes, no.
That's about all my character says in Balok, just to be polite to those whose country he's in. But I do see the problem with someone outright putting a {B} or [Balok] in front of a full sentence or conversation, and is not Barovian or has not had some kind of formal teaching and an average Int.
And isn't it One extra language for each intelligence bonus. So a level 12 intelligence with a +1 bonus could really only speak Two languages. Unless there was some factor from maybe your place of birth that would allow more. For instance Vanquist speaks Low Mordentish and High Mordentish, with average intelligence. I did this because it says that most farmers or underclassed peasants that even entered the upper class areas, spoke at least some High Mordentish. I may be wrong in this, DM tells me otherwise or someone has an issue with it, id be willing to discuss. But I don't see someone just outright fluently speaking another language that was not raised around it, and doesn't have the intelligence bonuses to add Balok as a fourth or whatever.
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when you keep getting confronted with stuff like buna and da and nu and salut and ziua and noapte then yes you would know the meaning of those words and probably how to prenounce them but the full deal wouldnt be possible without the int score and lessons behind it.
so thats a yes on a few words and a no on the total langauge.
..basicly +1 viliant destiny