Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Alan Hunter on November 28, 2019, 01:43:09 PM

Title: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Alan Hunter on November 28, 2019, 01:43:09 PM
I'm sure this has been discuss before but I can't seem to find Voracious topics if the dev team has implemented a Ration item for this feat. So I was wondering ro recommend a Buther's knife item that would generate a Ration-like item similiar to the old way we use to use a skinning knife on animals for hides. This would consume the flesh similiar to the Voracious feat giving the character more options and role play.

Also is it possible to consider an upgraded version of Voracios that offers a higher Buff and allows the character to consume from any corpse.  Think a Charisma negative and a +OCR penalty would be appropriate as the character would maybe be more bestial or aggresive looking from thia boon/curse.

Example:

Carnivorous
Req: Voracious
The fiend has gone beyond their nature and into the curse realm of diablorism consuming the flesh of their victims no matter what they are. Their hunger almost insatiable flesh is constantly on their mind. Waiting for their next victim the fiend consumes the flesh with utter delight.

Grants a +4 to Str/Con + Imp. Unarmed
The fiends transformation begins as they consume flesh of any victim their appearance alters this being pointed ears, fangs, needle like teeth, long sharp finger nails, their appearance altered after eaxh meal. This causes a -4 Cha and the fiends OCR is increased by 2 their appearance unnerving and draws attemtion.

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: ladylena on November 28, 2019, 02:43:09 PM
Could be a neat idea to have something like a food ration item for it. But maybe that would make the feat too easy.  Perhaps if such was done, it could be only like 2 items from the flesh? That way it's not something like 'go kill, cook meat like normal, get tons of rations, not kill for aaages'
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Alan Hunter on November 28, 2019, 03:23:00 PM
Yah thats true. Could be implemented that those with the feat are the only one with the crossing to do so. Maybe 2 carves only and if some one tried to do to many I mean its a huge risk if yer sitting carving multiple corpses similiar to eating them for the buff. Aquisition of the item shouldn't be to difficult especially if it leaves a notice much like the corpses you feed on. Maybe leave a yellow shout saying the area is thick with smell of iron and/ or blood.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Legion XXI on November 28, 2019, 03:34:29 PM
Giving +4 STR, +4 CON, and Imp Unarmed Strike ALL from one feat is extremely powerful for such a small investment. 

Also, the lack of food ration items for this feat is one of the main drawbacks for this feat, along with evil points and the IC risk of being labeled a cannibal.  It's a challenge to be embraced and RP'd, rather than something we should be trying to circumvent for quality of life.  It gives you an opportunity to play your PC as an intelligent, methodical cannibal who has to plan his next meal.  If you happen to go without eating for a while, it opens up avenues of RP like growing desperation to consume something.  Cheapening it to "food rations but with a different name" would be counter-intuitive to the drawback intended for the feat.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Confused Warlock on November 28, 2019, 03:59:32 PM
Cheapening it to "food rations but with a different name" would be counter-intuitive to the drawback intended for the feat.

Well said.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Leezil on November 28, 2019, 04:06:05 PM
Giving +4 STR, +4 CON, and Imp Unarmed Strike ALL from one feat is extremely powerful for such a small investment. 

Also, the lack of food ration items for this feat is one of the main drawbacks for this feat, along with evil points and the IC risk of being labeled a cannibal.  It's a challenge to be embraced and RP'd, rather than something we should be trying to circumvent for quality of life.  It gives you an opportunity to play your PC as an intelligent, methodical cannibal who has to plan his next meal.  If you happen to go without eating for a while, it opens up avenues of RP like growing desperation to consume something.  Cheapening it to "food rations but with a different name" would be counter-intuitive to the drawback intended for the feat.

+1
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: volski01 on November 28, 2019, 05:38:01 PM
Giving +4 STR, +4 CON, and Imp Unarmed Strike ALL from one feat is extremely powerful for such a small investment. 

Also, the lack of food ration items for this feat is one of the main drawbacks for this feat, along with evil points and the IC risk of being labeled a cannibal.  It's a challenge to be embraced and RP'd, rather than something we should be trying to circumvent for quality of life.  It gives you an opportunity to play your PC as an intelligent, methodical cannibal who has to plan his next meal.  If you happen to go without eating for a while, it opens up avenues of RP like growing desperation to consume something.  Cheapening it to "food rations but with a different name" would be counter-intuitive to the drawback intended for the feat.

Since voracious already works on NPCs, and there are numerous spots in Barovia one can find hostile NPCs, being able to essentially farm "rations" without any sort of danger would be a little too much. It would completely cheapen it, agreed.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on November 28, 2019, 07:01:11 PM
For this kind of power and emphasis on monstrous features, a character should commit to becoming an MPC. There are multiple MPC types which synergise well both in theme and gameplay with the feat as it is and the template can do the rest stat-wise while offering the necessary tools to properly set up encounters.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Relapse on November 28, 2019, 07:06:02 PM
Cheapening it to "food rations but with a different name" would be counter-intuitive to the drawback intended for the feat.

Well said.

+1

Voracious is not just cannibalism, if you want to be a cannibal with pocket rations go for it, don't take the feat.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: McNastea on November 28, 2019, 11:57:46 PM
Giving +4 STR, +4 CON, and Imp Unarmed Strike ALL from one feat is extremely powerful for such a small investment. 

Also, the lack of food ration items for this feat is one of the main drawbacks for this feat, along with evil points and the IC risk of being labeled a cannibal.  It's a challenge to be embraced and RP'd, rather than something we should be trying to circumvent for quality of life.  It gives you an opportunity to play your PC as an intelligent, methodical cannibal who has to plan his next meal.  If you happen to go without eating for a while, it opens up avenues of RP like growing desperation to consume something.  Cheapening it to "food rations but with a different name" would be counter-intuitive to the drawback intended for the feat.

Well said, I agree
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Nemesis 24 on November 29, 2019, 12:23:43 AM
Giving +4 STR, +4 CON, and Imp Unarmed Strike ALL from one feat is extremely powerful for such a small investment. 

Also, the lack of food ration items for this feat is one of the main drawbacks for this feat, along with evil points and the IC risk of being labeled a cannibal.  It's a challenge to be embraced and RP'd, rather than something we should be trying to circumvent for quality of life.  It gives you an opportunity to play your PC as an intelligent, methodical cannibal who has to plan his next meal.  If you happen to go without eating for a while, it opens up avenues of RP like growing desperation to consume something.  Cheapening it to "food rations but with a different name" would be counter-intuitive to the drawback intended for the feat.

Also agreed.  The feat gives enough bonus already.  I think we should leave this as it currently is.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Iridni Ren on November 29, 2019, 01:09:21 AM
Technically it would be two feats (Voracious plus Carnivorous), but otherwise I agree with the consensus.

Having played a PC with the feat, it's plenty strong as is. It seems that taking this second feat comes with very little additional cost to the PC who has already taken the penalties that Voracious itself brings.

Quote
I think we should leave this as it currently is.

I would like for it to be removed personally...so I certainly don't want it made stronger :) IMO it's much more like a DP than an ordinary feat that anyone can select.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Maverick on November 29, 2019, 04:14:49 AM
I am all for having rations that the cannibals can eat. However instead of giving them the bonuses, it should work like regular rations. You eat it to benefit for a rest and that's all. It could also provide a flavor item that creepy people can use to go about making shrines and stuff.

I also see the advantage of not having rations for cannibals to eat. This would still keep the risk of being discovered. (However seening a person demeating a corpse could be interesting.)
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: BraveSirRobin on November 29, 2019, 05:08:07 AM
I am all for having rations that the cannibals can eat. However instead of giving them the bonuses, it should work like regular rations. You eat it to benefit for a rest and that's all. It could also provide a flavor item that creepy people can use to go about making shrines and stuff.

I also see the advantage of not having rations for cannibals to eat. This would still keep the risk of being discovered. (However seening a person demeating a corpse could be interesting.)

I think this seems more reasonable, just because of how our rest mechanics work. But.. Not for maintaining their stat bonuses. Though I seem to recall the feat mentioning that you only needed to eat every few weeks, so if it isn't this way already, it could be edited to make it so when you rest, you get the full benefits of resting -- As AFAIK someone with Voracious can still get a full heal from resting in a inn room, which is also feeding you (as indicated by your lack of hunger when attempting to consume a ration shortly after)
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Alan Hunter on November 29, 2019, 11:27:58 AM
Hmm, a lot of criticism of this suggestion. Well they are two seperate suggestions. Though some people have pointed out and encourage others of their rebuttle. The rrbuttle itseld contradicts as you do incurr negative alignment by 5 points and its just not over time on a lengthy period almoat inmediately you can gain the evil alignment in mere minutes then days in progression in compariaon to normal action in which the risk and penalty is immediate.

Not taking the feat isnt' very conatructive as the purpose of the feat was to elaborate on the role play and immersion of the gothic horror of Ravenloft. As some one auggested it be easier to juat do an MPC, surely off the back, but deniably would cheapen the experience in progressing to that point in a sense when the player feels, or DM, that chracter has arrived to that point. My opinion but it felt the feat would help in that kind of progresaion of atory and role play development as this aerver seema to insist upon.

Now I can see how some can think it powerful. A bit no diffrent than paladin abilities or aome of the other mechanics topic about with controversy. But, consider yes the person gets an extra +2 in stat which they need to consume to gain and maintain, immediate 5 points to Evil every few seconds, would also gain a -2 Cha effectively reducing their Social skills by 1 point and effectively denying some certain social feats due to low cha of 6 or 4, a +2 in OCR which effectively increases their chances to ne rebuked if not difficult to recover when they recieve an OCR increase, Add in the fact if the feat effects their appearance they could lose Vallaki as an example be mistaken fer Caliban or worst. All this for 2 points more in STR/Con and a feat that effectively anybody can get via feat which this does with an additional feat to require.

Again just my opinion but if anyone has suggestion to augment this feat with appropriate penalties I havent read that yet. So far I do like the suggestion of having a ration like item cause as it stands it does make for roleplay as well as a benefit to a mechanic in resting properly which were said well.

I don't see it as cheapening the feat but thats just my opinion. Not all charcters will be methodical or intelligent. Some could be instinctual maybe primal from the action. Some unable to help themselves or ridden with fear of their shame. It provides a plethora of role play possibilities. Albiet food ration item is a poor choice of words I merely wanted to simplisticly explain what the item could be for this feat with out confusion. And I don't think anyones trying to circumvent for a quality of life merely improving on a concept that has already been developed and would further the role play benefit. I think its counter-intuitive to slate something with out a bit more brain storming or suggestions or at least a bit more response than just +1.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Iridni Ren on November 29, 2019, 11:47:18 AM
The RP of the feat is very limited. The one thing I will say in its favor is that it is an attempt to reinvigorate Gothic horror, but I fear it does so "on the cheap." That is, it gives an incentive to players themselves to RP a pretty horrifying behavior. That anyone can do so--including very new and thus otherwise weak PCs looking for a quick power/build boost--and it can easily devolve into pure mechanical ritual with little RP at all cheapens the effect. I think allowing cannibal rations would further diminish its horror.

If a player truly roleplays the behavior in a horrifying manner with other PCs, she is likely to see her PC closured in short order. Two alternatives are to find either PCs willing to go along with it or rely exclusively on NPCs, the latter not being the kind of RP we would prefer (that involving other players and facilitating their RP). Although I was able on Suspiria to find PCs who were willing to keep her feeding secret, even then such scenes become somewhat repetitive and thus diminishing of any horror value.

Some AMPCs and MPCs should have this in their kit. Otherwise, it would seem to me to be a Dark Power achievable by a very specific action (so that DMs could award it in circumstances in which good RP would be likely to occur). But I personally don't think it works as a "general" feat.

Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Alan Hunter on November 29, 2019, 12:26:27 PM
The Rp of the Feat is indeed limited hence the attempt to broaden it. Though "Cheap" by some standards its better than the current circumstances of the lack of gothic horror or emphasis as it stands. I mean with the discussion of Monks, Paladins, Clerics, and Rogues there are many avenues to cheap quick power/build boosts already implemented in the game that easily devolve into pure mechanical ritual with little RP which cheapens the class and effect of role play already. Said these classes with out props already have cheapened theatrics via feats, skills, or innate scripting.

There is the role play risk of the person being caught which is in part the thrill or worry of a player of closure. But, given the risk of closure and force closures on the server I think it kind of runs hand in hand already to be expected. Especially when people corpse hide or use other means to make a character unplayable. But who are "We" and how are "We" in the equation?

Well its up to the player to encourage and continue the horror if it becomes diminish to them then I guess the character loses value and play-ability. But, recently thanks to some people the role play of such Horror was fortunate and kind of reinvigorated the story for the character.

IF AMPC/MPC were more accessible and easier to be reviewed I could see it as being an option. But, this is my experience and my experience alone, less you are well known, or good with the Council, or Team, or have been witness by Dm's often it is less likely an individual who isn't will not be permitted or prompted access to these features. As it stands the emphasis of Horror for Ravenloft is mostly in the hands of the players and using what we can with in the limitations we have it's only natural to suggest broadening. Something is better than nothing. This is just a suggestion I don't expect the Dev. Team or DM Staff to implement it. But, can I ask if there was a way to improve this suggestion what would you recommend to make this feat more applicable or the suggestion of a food carry item more reasonable?
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Iridni Ren on November 29, 2019, 12:42:42 PM
I agree with a lot of what you say, and my use of the word "cheap" wasn't meant to be overly negative, but rather to connote a quick-and-dirty fix when we do lack AMPCs and more DMs to enforce the setting.

Ultimately, all the tools we're provided still rely on us (the players) to make good use of them to achieve high-quality results.

Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Alan Hunter on November 29, 2019, 01:16:03 PM
True enough. So I hate to impose but could you help me with this? Not just the feat and suggestion but improving our Ravenloft to the days when we ran like children under covers and the scare was real?  :)
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Iridni Ren on November 29, 2019, 02:52:15 PM
Regarding the feat, I would gate it as above (AMPCs/MPCs or coming after the kind of RP that is currently in the feat description and a failed DP check).

As to the more general, we have to do that as a community, but my quick suggestion would be to encourage players to apply for and play AMPCs, including AMPCs that are meant to be of relatively short life spans, rather than necessarily aiming for the full six months.

One idea: Play an AMPC confined to a specific location that "pops up" now and then unexpectedly to turn the routine dungeon run into the terrifying.

Above all, if we want the server to be scary, resist the ever-present temptation to metagame and to flex. If AMPCs are stomped on as soon as they show up, then no one will want to put the thought or effort into playing them. Likewise, though, no one should take on the role of AMPC with the idea of using those powers to stomp on lowbies.

To bring it back to Voracious, the feat should primarily be something horrifying, not something taken for its mechanical value alone or subsequently looked at as the golden opportunity to declare open season on the character. Yes, you see someone eating another human in plain sight, then by all means such revulsion might make you want to strike first and ask questions later. But don't, for example, use OOC knowledge to behave toward that PC in an unnatural way in an attempt to acquire IC knowledge that will allow you to justify killing the PC.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: PlatointheCave on November 29, 2019, 11:06:36 PM
Regarding the feat, I would gate it as above (AMPCs/MPCs or coming after the kind of RP that is currently in the feat description and a failed DP check).

I agree. This is a feat that represents learning to draw a strength from the act of cannibalism that goes beyond common cannibalism. As a player that regularly interacts with shadier PCs, it more often seems like a feat taken as part of some bad guy starter pack that is barely roleplayed.

Worse, the feat can be used to impair a corpse. This is a PvP action and as such falls under our PvP rules - it's not something you can do to another PC without an overriding roleplay reason. "I needed a top up" isn't enough.

I'd much prefer it were removed or regulated.

I'm strongly against expanding on it or easing its use.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: BraveSirRobin on November 30, 2019, 02:17:31 AM
Regarding the feat, I would gate it as above (AMPCs/MPCs or coming after the kind of RP that is currently in the feat description and a failed DP check).

I agree. This is a feat that represents learning to draw a strength from the act of cannibalism that goes beyond common cannibalism. As a player that regularly interacts with shadier PCs, it more often seems like a feat taken as part of some bad guy starter pack that is barely roleplayed.

Worse, the feat can be used to impair a corpse. This is a PvP action and as such falls under our PvP rules - it's not something you can do to another PC without an overriding roleplay reason. "I needed a top up" isn't enough.

I'd much prefer it were removed or regulated.

I'm strongly against expanding on it or easing its use.


It has been clarified by EO in the past that the use of the feat alone isn't prohibited, so long as you aren't excessively consuming a corpse in order to badly impair it. One bite is enough, five or six is overkill and considered to be an illegal action without RP supporting it. There isn't a situation in which a corpse can be used to feed upon and accidentally badly impair it without repeatedly feeding on the same corpse for something equivalent to a month IRL, which isn't a situation that has thus come up yet.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: PlatointheCave on November 30, 2019, 03:12:25 AM
I've observed that precise situation.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: BraveSirRobin on November 30, 2019, 04:38:20 AM
I've observed that precise situation.

I don't know about that, you'd have to have a corpse remain persistant, unimpaired, with the owner not respawning but logging back in over the course of several server resets and not moved as to not be found again. -- As sequestering the body is also considered a hostile action (which means if that was justified, the badly impaired may have also been justified, but let's not split hairs) and even in the event you did witness that situation, it isn't a common one, and it either resulted in a rulebreak -- which means it would have been resolved by the DM Staff, or it was ruled legal, in which case the point is moot.


It's a case so rare it's the exception, not the norm, and not how the feat is intended to work.


EDIT: To clarify, I'm not contesting whether or not you witnessed someone badly impair a corpse by accident. Just that the string of events for one individual to do so would require a lot of improbable, unusual circumstances for it to take place that do not appear to be commonplace.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: PlatointheCave on November 30, 2019, 04:47:30 AM
Or a player to be ignorant of the rules and use the consumption repeatedly in one sitting.

Yes, this happens.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: BraveSirRobin on November 30, 2019, 05:34:04 AM
That happens, I suppose, but it's a fault of the rule not being displayed in the journal or in a proper announcement on the forums more than anything. I don't see why the feat leads to badly impairing a body in the first place if the act of doing so is expressly prohibited. Should just have that bit scripted out to avoid the mistake.


..But we're probably slowly derailing this thread, that being said.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: PrimetheGrime on November 30, 2019, 05:54:44 AM
I agree that it should be removed to be honest. Since it's adding into one of the previous NCE's, it's had a near constant issue with it in some form or another. In NCE it was about making everyone into bugged corpses, now it's just turning them into skulls. It also offers a hefty power boost in strength and constitution. I personally think it's unnecessary.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: RickDeckard on November 30, 2019, 06:20:50 AM
I agree that it should be removed to be honest. Since it's adding into one of the previous NCE's, it's had a near constant issue with it in some form or another. In NCE it was about making everyone into bugged corpses, now it's just turning them into skulls. It also offers a hefty power boost in strength and constitution. I personally think it's unnecessary.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Little Lotte on November 30, 2019, 10:06:36 AM
I agree that it should be removed to be honest. Since it's adding into one of the previous NCE's, it's had a near constant issue with it in some form or another. In NCE it was about making everyone into bugged corpses, now it's just turning them into skulls. It also offers a hefty power boost in strength and constitution. I personally think it's unnecessary.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: BraveSirRobin on November 30, 2019, 10:36:47 AM
I disagree with this sentiment.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Devil's Moon on November 30, 2019, 11:11:08 AM
The thematic domain of Voracious should have been left to the realm of Dark Power blessings/curses, but I imagine the feat is here to stay and likely won't easily be subjected to modifications based on public opinion, as indicated by a few suggestion/discussion threads lately.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Iridni Ren on November 30, 2019, 11:53:50 AM
The thematic domain of Voracious should have been left to the realm of Dark Power blessings/curses, but I imagine the feat is here to stay and likely won't easily be subjected to modifications based on public opinion, as indicated by a few suggestion/discussion threads lately.

It's a recent addition, and a single feat, so now is the best time to correct any mistakes made with its implementation. Moreover, the OP is advocating changes that would further build on it. So assuming your "reasoning by inertia" is correct, all the more reason to address problems with it now, before it becomes even more entrenched.

I disagree with this sentiment.

Your posts in this thread have generally indicated that you are not overly familiar with the feat, so the burden really is on you to make more of a supported argument than "I disagree."
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: BraveSirRobin on November 30, 2019, 12:09:12 PM
This isn’t really a thread designed to debate whether or not the feat deserves to be removed, it’s a thread debating the merits of whether or not his suggestion should be implemented. A separate thread should be created to discuss the merits of removing the feat if that is everyone’s desire, and such thoughts may be conveyed there instead of burying the purpose of this thread under our combined, weightless debates.

That being said, I’ll leave my disagreement with the brief elaboration that the primary complaints regarding it seem to revolve around the way the feeding interacts with a corpse to potentially badly impair them. If that’s a large enough issue, they can correct that independently of removing the feat. Insofar as antagonistic roleplay is concerned, the stat buffs that come along with Voracious aren’t particularly gamebreaking. In the long run the +2 CON and +2 STR bonuses are the difference of a few HP, 1 Fort save bonus, and +1 AB and +1 Damage (For STR-based melee) or just +1 Damage for DEX-based melee.

I disagree with the notion that playing a controversial or antagonistic PC should be exclusively relegated to the realms of DP’s and (a)MPC applications. I believe this offers new narrative opportunities, especially for Caliban and the like who would reasonably be cannibals.

Whomsoever takes this feat is subjecting themselves to the same treatment open necromancers, red wizards, Blackguards and Banites get on this server which is complete and total annihilation by the masses if they remain among them. In my humble opinion, they can have the 1 AB and 10 HP. They’re gonna need it.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Philos on November 30, 2019, 03:54:32 PM
I won't touch on the thematic considerations presented above, but perhaps we could make a remedy for cases of accidentally badly impairing a PC. Maybe a yellow text warning when said corpse is at the threshhold of being badly impaired with a reminder about PvP rules or simply removing the capability to Badly Impair corpses with it?
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Maverick on November 30, 2019, 05:13:18 PM
It does warn you if a corpse is about to be to impaired. I tested it on a poor gnome and found that it takes sometime for it to happen. I managed to get a few weeks (In game Mechanic) of buff off of it without imparing it.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Iridni Ren on November 30, 2019, 06:12:37 PM
I never impaired or badly impaired a corpse on Sus with it. You just watch your stats and stop when they turn green from the buff--which does take a few chews...and earns lots of evil points :D

Although I generally ate NPCs, based on my occasional experience with PCs, I would judge any corpse impairing that occurs as intentional.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: BraveSirRobin on December 01, 2019, 12:35:51 AM
It does warn you if a corpse is about to be to impaired. I tested it on a poor gnome and found that it takes sometime for it to happen. I managed to get a few weeks (In game Mechanic) of buff off of it without imparing it.

So, the accidental badly impairing isn't even an issue, then, unless said player is ignoring the warnings. Well, anyways, we should probably get back to the substance of this thread and save the modifier/changes/removal discussion for a thread designed to revolve around it instead of hijacking OP's thread.

In that spirit, how do we consider the current suvivability of the feat, for the kind of heat it will attract once revealed?
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: PrimetheGrime on December 01, 2019, 06:11:28 AM
Ok, back on topic then. I don't think that another update to voracious is required for either roleplay or survivability. Especially not one that takes away the elements of what the feat is. Whilst I've heard multiple explanations of how the feat works, It in essence is forgoing your humanity in exchange for dark gifts. You aren't meant to be able to just have a snack whenever, nor use regular food ever again because delving into such inhumanity as to not only eat of another humanoid but to also discover a secret way to increase your own power by doing so it no mere cannibalism and should not be seen as such. What you are meant to be doing is partaking in depraved and morally evil temptations in order to glean power from the fallen humanoid you're eating, it's not exactly meant to be something you just do in the space of say, a minute. I am against the idea of having rations added into the game separately because that would lead to people just making cannibal rations which they'd snack on when they please. that is not what Voracious is. You're drawing strength and dark power from eating the flesh of another. Which is why the alignment is immediately plummeted down to chaotic evil, because the action itself is one that only those with dark madness would use or discover. I repeat: This is not just a regular cannibalism feat. Now, if we were to look into more Roleplay-like variations of cannibalism in general with the same concept as Voracious, sure, but certainly not with it's level of stat increase. Perhaps one that gives you a temporary bonus, something a monstrous character might be able to use, but not all the time.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Iridni Ren on December 01, 2019, 08:56:25 AM

So, the accidental badly impairing isn't even an issue, then, unless said player is ignoring the warnings. Well, anyways, we should probably get back to the substance of this thread and save the modifier/changes/removal discussion for a thread designed to revolve around it instead of hijacking OP's thread.

In that spirit, how do we consider the current suvivability of the feat, for the kind of heat it will attract once revealed?

The buff is quite strong, and taking it is supposed to carry with it risks. Nevertheless, it is currently very easy to survive with the feat...if the possessor is discreet about its use. Sus had it for most of the time the feat has been available. During that time, three PCs knew of her secret, but she made certain that they were PCs unlikely to reveal it.

Otherwise, she was very careful, doing her dining behind closed doors and when she was fairly certain she was not being observed.

It does not need any enhancements to make possessing it more survivable.

As for "hijacking the thread," the original poster wrote:

True enough. So I hate to impose but could you help me with this? Not just the feat and suggestion but improving our Ravenloft to the days when we ran like children under covers and the scare was real?  :)
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: BraveSirRobin on December 02, 2019, 06:31:16 AM

So, the accidental badly impairing isn't even an issue, then, unless said player is ignoring the warnings. Well, anyways, we should probably get back to the substance of this thread and save the modifier/changes/removal discussion for a thread designed to revolve around it instead of hijacking OP's thread.

In that spirit, how do we consider the current suvivability of the feat, for the kind of heat it will attract once revealed?

The buff is quite strong, and taking it is supposed to carry with it risks. Nevertheless, it is currently very easy to survive with the feat...if the possessor is discreet about its use. Sus had it for most of the time the feat has been available. During that time, three PCs knew of her secret, but she made certain that they were PCs unlikely to reveal it.

Otherwise, she was very careful, doing her dining behind closed doors and when she was fairly certain she was not being observed.

It does not need any enhancements to make possessing it more survivable.

As for "hijacking the thread," the original poster wrote:

True enough. So I hate to impose but could you help me with this? Not just the feat and suggestion but improving our Ravenloft to the days when we ran like children under covers and the scare was real?  :)

I wouldn't presume to know everything Suspiria got up to during her time around the server. However, I would say with a reasonable assumption that the STR/CON bonus didn't make or break Suspiria as a character for her survival, or make her especially overpowered. The fact she barely told anyone, and kept it a secret doesn't necessarily reflect on your average Voracious user, and it also means in terms of Gothic Horror, very few people experienced the facet of cannibalism that it the feat is intended to portray, making the point moot. You've taken low risk, but in turn, you've not really achieved much with it.

The point of offering boons with the feat is to encourage people to pursue it. To give people a reason to actually want to do something that is likely to see their character chased by a lynch mob, for all but a select few, veteran members of the community who are willing to do things just for the hell of it and don't care. That's not who this is advertised to, and it's also not who it's necessarily benefiting the end.

If you can explain to me and convince me how the +1 STR +1 CON enhancement bonus is too much of a pro, for the con that is being extremely controversial and antagonistic by devouring the dead bodies of other players, in an objective manner, I'll concede your point. I'm of the mindset it generates diversity and conflict where some players really wouldn't bother, usually in a manner more open than private dining. It dangles the carrot of power, in exchange for depravity. It's classic Gothic Horror in that regard.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: PrimetheGrime on December 02, 2019, 09:38:31 AM

So, the accidental badly impairing isn't even an issue, then, unless said player is ignoring the warnings. Well, anyways, we should probably get back to the substance of this thread and save the modifier/changes/removal discussion for a thread designed to revolve around it instead of hijacking OP's thread.

In that spirit, how do we consider the current suvivability of the feat, for the kind of heat it will attract once revealed?

The buff is quite strong, and taking it is supposed to carry with it risks. Nevertheless, it is currently very easy to survive with the feat...if the possessor is discreet about its use. Sus had it for most of the time the feat has been available. During that time, three PCs knew of her secret, but she made certain that they were PCs unlikely to reveal it.

Otherwise, she was very careful, doing her dining behind closed doors and when she was fairly certain she was not being observed.

It does not need any enhancements to make possessing it more survivable.

As for "hijacking the thread," the original poster wrote:

True enough. So I hate to impose but could you help me with this? Not just the feat and suggestion but improving our Ravenloft to the days when we ran like children under covers and the scare was real?  :)

I wouldn't presume to know everything Suspiria got up to during her time around the server. However, I would say with a reasonable assumption that the STR/CON bonus didn't make or break Suspiria as a character for her survival, or make her especially overpowered. The fact she barely told anyone, and kept it a secret doesn't necessarily reflect on your average Voracious user, and it also means in terms of Gothic Horror, very few people experienced the facet of cannibalism that it the feat is intended to portray, making the point moot. You've taken low risk, but in turn, you've not really achieved much with it.

The point of offering boons with the feat is to encourage people to pursue it. To give people a reason to actually want to do something that is likely to see their character chased by a lynch mob, for all but a select few, veteran members of the community who are willing to do things just for the hell of it and don't care. That's not who this is advertised to, and it's also not who it's necessarily benefiting the end.

If you can explain to me and convince me how the +1 STR +1 CON enhancement bonus is too much of a pro, for the con that is being extremely controversial and antagonistic by devouring the dead bodies of other players, in an objective manner, I'll concede your point. I'm of the mindset it generates diversity and conflict where some players really wouldn't bother, usually in a manner more open than private dining. It dangles the carrot of power, in exchange for depravity. It's classic Gothic Horror in that regard.

To begin with? It's +2 to STR and CON, not +1. Big difference, it lasts for a week and the eating process will heal you 1 point per level as if you've eaten a full meal, you can extend the duration just by eating, the con being they can no longer eat regular food to rest with and must eat humanoid flesh. As per the wiki:

Quote
Specifics: The character has discovered the mystical secret of how to steal a person's strength by devouring their corpse. By feeding upon the dead, the character becomes stronger and tougher, and heals wounds at a much faster rate. Sometimes, discovering the secret requires much deliberate research; sometimes, it is discovered accidentally in a moment of desperation and need. When the character eats the required amount of flesh from the corpse of a humanoid (5 pounds for a small creature, 20 pounds for a medium creature), he gains a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for a duration of one week. The character also heals one hit point per level as though he had rested after a full meal. Eating more than once during this period extends the duration but does not increase the bonus. The character no longer gains nutrition from regular food and no longer recovers hit points when resting from eating.
Use: Selected.
Special: Any character may take this feat, but non-evil characters will find their alignments quickly twisting into evil if they use it.

So yeah, it's got plenty of use and a lot of bang for your buck. Survivability? Check. Roleplay? Check. As far as controversial? Roleplay wise, perhaps, but there have been a slew of cannibals or man eaters about, even before this feat was implemented. Mechanics wise, the stats speak for themselves. A good deal of folk wont try anything against a voracious eater as well. Without naming names, I've seen known man eaters walk through zones unhindered by the other folk around them who usually just stare or glare so it really depends on who wants you dead if they see you being a cannibal, though it's easy enough to mask, what with the surplus of humanoid npcs about. In conclusion, many pros, few cons
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Iridni Ren on December 02, 2019, 09:46:01 AM
Yes, mistakes like thinking it's +1/+1 rather than +2/+2 are why I said earlier "your posts in this thread have generally indicated that you are not overly familiar with the feat" :)

As a point of comparison, Devs will almost certainly reject gear that gives even +1 to a stat. We count such bonuses as worthy of 2 ECL on races. And when I proposed this feat (https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=49133.msg604404#msg604404) (likewise only a +1 to as single stat and available only to 20th level characters), many acted as though it was extravagantly over-powered.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: EO on December 02, 2019, 12:14:19 PM
Ever since we started logging cases of Voracious users impairing characters about a year ago there have been around 25 cases of Voracious use leading to impairment; we added a warning in July as well so there's no way to accidentally eat someone.

There are no plans to adjust or change this feat at the moment since it works as intended. Like any other feat, we leave it to players to roleplay its use accordingly since we don't enforce any specific type of roleplay.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: BraveSirRobin on December 02, 2019, 05:55:53 PM
Yes, mistakes like thinking it's +1/+1 rather than +2/+2 are why I said earlier "your posts in this thread have generally indicated that you are not overly familiar with the feat" :)

As a point of comparison, Devs will almost certainly reject gear that gives even +1 to a stat. We count such bonuses as worthy of 2 ECL on races. And when I proposed this feat (https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=49133.msg604404#msg604404) (likewise only a +1 to as single stat and available only to 20th level characters), many acted as though it was extravagantly over-powered.


You’re mistaking what that +1/+1 was referencing. I know it’s a +2/+2, but I was referencing the modifiers, not the stat change. I know it’s +2, but in effect it changes your modifiers by +1. I had a slip of the tongue because of how I think of it in my head, woe be to me for doing so, but I understand how the feat works.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Alan Hunter on December 04, 2019, 01:00:23 PM
Right wow. Apologies for not speaking up lately. I figure I let it sit amd see what progress came up. I see a lot of negativity to this suggestion and a lot of complaints. My intentions isnt to start or antagonize anyone. But, a lot of people percieve this feat as high perk no cons which in my opinion isn't true. With out revealing my character I am one of the original five who took this feat when first offered and help EO test on various npc/monsters to ensure some werent missed or abused. In saying this i dont encoirage I know more simply I have a general idea. Some people been kind to direct me to related thread and did not know it was regulated as a pvp action with restrictions. Reading it I can see a players concern yet with the limit of sources, high risk, and personal experience there is a lot more risk than perk.

Clarifying yes Voracious users recieve a bump in 2 stats which is rare and is inposession of a roleplaying tool with a free buffering mechanic. Some other feats do similiar with class and or racial ability. For this advantagous buff, my bad guy package, I as a Voracious user have to contend with out being able to eat common food which your chatacter can die from not eating, less its been updated, after so many log in and days. Had that happen once in my old days.

In addition yes there arr options to eat non-players but as some stated it cheapens the feat. Yet you run the risk of auto recieving OCR increase rapidly for eating npcs who automatically discover you are evil. Even if you happen to eat the corpse fond dead by a Werewolf.

Testing on the old server you can literally have and OCR of 16 to 20 depending on your character after yer first npcs feeding. A con that seema few didn't consider in thia topic. This drastically changes the immersion and puts the player at a high risk inmediately making them a revealable threat. Those inexperienced of the feat and wishing to avoid pvp will find it very hard to reduce that OCR overtime as i have personally experienced that when Voracious was fairly new and the feat was explained and changed to make players more aware of this risk.

That said there is a lot of con to a buff which is appropriate. How its roleplayed depends on the imagination of the individual. For me it was a curse/boon inherited in the characters roleplay to get stronger. A character AMPC taught the character the boon and was documented.

As EO stated there may not be development for tgis feat. But, I just made the descision to suggest some expansion and role play advancements as it was discussed some time ago about expanding a food item the Voracious user would carry given the negative of poor resting recovery which is also a handicap of the feat.

As it is the feat was encouraged to promote interaction with players. But, now with the restriction of it being a provocation to pvp with out consent it limits the original choice of prey which makes the statement it cheapens the feat by consuming npcs mute as it makes it harder to get choice of prey. I have had encounters with down corpses I randomly find on travels and was ask by players to stop because of fear of impairing. So I did as thats the kind od plauer am and roll a will check to see if the character morally eats the corpse or saves it. Genarally given my new evil alignment I just leave the body, less its a damn 17 to 20, otherwise I discuss it with a player how they want to go.

The before being said. I think overall i have pvped once as rogue and alarmed a Dm/Developer because i was encouraged by a DM to act my alignment. So I set up a trap like a good evil rogue got some one and some one oocly got there buddies to rescue them and it turned to an ooc fiasco. Hence the dm who came in was alarmed cause they knew it was unlike me. But I had explain the reasons.

And yet its okay for the victor of the pvper to steal the fallen players equipment amd gold or corpse hide them but, its not okay to use a feat to impair them?

Examples aside. I spoken my opinion and suggestion. However I don't see many talks in improving the quality or expansion of this feat. If the forum operators feel it neccesarily to lock the topic after the next few conversations if there no suggested improcement they may do so. I'm  not seeing much prospering and I don't want to drag this topic on. So to anyone offended or didn't like the auggestion apologies for hurting your feelings not my intent to exasperate or exhaust you.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Iridni Ren on December 04, 2019, 01:11:25 PM
Testing on the old server you can literally have and OCR of 16 to 20 depending on your character after yer first npcs feeding. A con that seema few didn't consider in thia topic. This drastically changes the immersion and puts the player at a high risk inmediately making them a revealable threat. Those inexperienced of the feat and wishing to avoid pvp will find it very hard to reduce that OCR overtime as i have personally experienced that when Voracious was fairly new and the feat was explained and changed to make players more aware of this risk.

This would be if you did it around (living) NPCs?

Because Sus never received an OCR bump, but she also ate either in the locked Broken Bell Theatre or in caves after killing all the inhabitants.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: APorg on December 04, 2019, 01:25:47 PM
Fairly sure that corpse-hiding and impairing corpses are similar in terms of PvP escalation.  Certainly both are more serious than taking gold or fallen weapons from dead people, which don't actually count as PvP, as dead PCs' belongings are fair game.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Revenant on December 04, 2019, 01:43:14 PM
Hunger does not, and as far as I know has not ever, had an effect on anything except the health you regain from resting, even as far back as 2009. If you died from resting, it was likely a con buff that wore off leaving you in the negatives.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Alan Hunter on December 05, 2019, 11:59:18 AM
Fairly sure that corpse-hiding and impairing corpses are similar in terms of PvP escalation.  Certainly both are more serious than taking gold or fallen weapons from dead people, which don't actually count as PvP, as dead PCs' belongings are fair game.

Key phrase. Dead Pcs are fair game. So in a way how is it escalating impairing the body when a critical hit or damage beyond th pcs negstive hp is beyond threshold? Just as purposefully one goes to take the coin or weapon of a player due to thier death why is it against the rules to consume that players to impairment? Both technically have rp reason yet a legitimate feat es disallowed yet its okay to theft some one. Which in a way is dis allowed base on the pick pocket and theft rules in a way. But, its all arguing semetics(sp) at this point.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Alan Hunter on December 05, 2019, 12:11:08 PM
Hunger does not, and as far as I know has not ever, had an effect on anything except the health you regain from resting, even as far back as 2009. If you died from resting, it was likely a con buff that wore off leaving you in the negatives.

Before this gen of chars and being on the forum. There was a time I played as lesser known. It was during the era when raising dead had a high chance of raising a zomby version and when you rested you were blind and deaf. When you needed to skin knife animals for hide. Alots changed since then. I admit maybe it was DM induced? It was during a time when things were more... hardcore for lack of terms and not as developed as it is now.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: EO on December 05, 2019, 12:13:59 PM
Before this gen of chars and being on the forum. There was a time I played as lesser known. It was during the era when raising dead had a high chance of raising a zomby version and when you rested you were blind and deaf. When you needed to skin knife animals for hide. Alots changed since then. I admit maybe it was DM induced? It was during a time when things were more... hardcore for lack of terms and not as developed as it is now.

None of this is accurate, and I've been on this server essentially since it went out of private beta, neither is the starving mechanism. You may be remembering from another server.

Anyway, impairing a corpse using Voracious is akin to burning or impairing it with a weapon; it falls under PvP rules and is logged.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: APorg on December 05, 2019, 12:58:59 PM
dead PCs' belongings are fair game.

Key phrase. Dead Pcs are fair game.

Dead PCs are NOT fair game.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Arawn on December 05, 2019, 01:23:55 PM
dead PCs' belongings are fair game.

Key phrase. Dead Pcs are fair game.

Dead PCs are NOT fair game.

They are; you just can't move them in a way that would make them harder to discover, or impair them.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Philos on December 05, 2019, 02:05:32 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/273CCNp/3ij78w.jpg)
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Iridni Ren on December 05, 2019, 02:16:07 PM
One minor change (improvement) for Voracious would be making more humanoids leave consumable corpses.

If I remember correctly, the hobgoblins don't, for example.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Philos on December 05, 2019, 02:20:03 PM
Have you tried subduing first?.I'm curious if that would work.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Iridni Ren on December 05, 2019, 02:23:41 PM
Good question, but I don't think I ever did.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Alan Hunter on December 05, 2019, 05:06:50 PM
Subdue does not work for consumption. Like with in the feat it must be a corpse, humanoid, in order to consume.

And I agree with Iridni a few more viable NPC would be nice.

EO apologies. I'm not certain of some of mechanics you have been longer on online than I have since I have been onnand off. Though I recall we did have a mechanic for the dead some times rising as zombies. But, I take yer word.

Anyways since staff has made it clear no further changes will be made to Voracious. And with little suggestion on its improvement I dont think this topics going anywhere further so I leave it to the forum admins to decide about the topics closure and stuff.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: APorg on December 05, 2019, 06:03:23 PM
dead PCs' belongings are fair game.

Key phrase. Dead Pcs are fair game.

Dead PCs are NOT fair game.

They are; you just can't move them in a way that would make them harder to discover, or impair them.

I was using the term "fair game" to mean, you can do anything you want without restriction, to counter the misquote of my words. In a thread where someone is arguing that they should be able to maim corpses without it constituting PvP, it's important to distinguish between the mild inconvenience of losing a bunch of gold or having your body moved slightly, versus the potentially character-ending consequences of corpse-hiding and corpse-impairing.  Of course I'm confident that you and veteran players understand that distinction; it's not so clear the OP does.
Title: Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
Post by: Arawn on December 05, 2019, 06:12:09 PM
Fair game doesn’t imply or suggest any particular level of use, merely that the corpse is a valid target for the feat, which seemed to be understood in all prior responses to the thread.

In any case, this discussion has played out. The Team will keep the need for more viable edible enemies in mind. Otherwise, I’m locking the thread.