Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Ken14 on November 06, 2019, 09:53:29 PM
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So, I know that there have been (likely several) requests of making Ki Strike a +1/2/3 AB, in addition to the way it pierces DR. So I'mma not suggest that.
But why is it just until +3? And why so late? Why not have it follow the path of magical enhancements:
Get Ki Strike 1 at lvl 2. Then KS 2 at lvl 8. Then KS 3 at lvl 12, KS 4 at lvl 16 and KS 5 at lvl 20.
It seems more akin to the class that they'd eventually manage to pierce heavy protections with their strikes when they're at their Apex. And getting KS at lower levels will help with overcoming DR at the lower end of the level pool, instead of getting such at lvl 10.....When you probably already got your own means of piercing through +1 DR.
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Why would you want to buff a class at higher level when their weakness isn't actually their higher level power, but actually their lower levels? Having Ki strike cap at +3 is in par with what adamantine is right now, and giving it +4 would only push them over the top in my opinion. High level monks are already SUPER strong, they don't need more buffs to make them even better at those levels. If you want to propose buffs to them, try to propose something that will help their levels 2-7, which is when their life is hard.
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Why would you want to buff a class at higher level when their weakness isn't actually their higher level power, but actually their lower levels? Having Ki strike cap at +3 is in par with what adamantine is right now, and giving it +4 would only push them over the top in my opinion. High level monks are already SUPER strong, they don't need more buffs to make them even better at those levels. If you want to propose buffs to them, try to propose something that will help their levels 2-7, which is when their life is hard.
Ki strike at lvl 2, KS 2 at lvl 8 and KS 3 at lvl 12 works just as well for improving the lower level progress.
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monk strengths:
optimal crafting stat spread (wis/con)
free imp kd
free cleave
rapid blow for their 1d20 punches
immunity to poison
SR: 30, which is basically a 75% chance to resist a level 9 spell outright. Not all offensive spells are level 9.
pierce stoneskin by merely existing
immunity to mind spells, immunity to vallaki guard with 1/20
perpetual 60% speed that stacks with haste for zoomy bois
aforementioned speed permits gun monks, while not the strongest, to ensure you can kite somebody to death.
not weighed down by full plate, can get full plate ac from wis/greater wis potion cheese.
deflect an archer's first attack which is the highest ab.
improved evasion.
ethereal jaunt which makes you basically able to survive S.T.A.L.K.E.R-esque living conditions like the wall of RA on tap.
increase ac for merely existing, this goes up to +4 ac at 20.
punch of slaying, just in case you want to yeet a low level.
access to ms, hide, discipline, tumble, spot, listen and gets decent 4+int modifier allows to cover all your bases.
fort, reflex, will saves every level. uni saves at enchanted gear. cross-class spellcraft for more uni saves. get LoH/SS for more beefy saves.
DESPITE ALL THESE COOL PERKS, THEY STILL GET BONUS FEATS LIKE ANY OTHER CLASS. (2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20)
not gated behind an application and anyone can play it.
and you want +5 dr piercing?
You want ki-strike sooner to make their biggest weakness (a low level hell that everyone goes through) a lot more palatable?
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But why is it just until +3? And why so late? Why not have it follow the path of magical enhancements:
I think the additional ki strikes are because although a lot of mechanics in NWN are drawn directly from 3.0 with 3.5 added in later, they felt that Monk was underpowered, so base NWN did this to make monks more relevant.
Originally at lvl 16 if you look in the player handbook (at least the 3.5 one I have) by lvl 16 the fists become equivalent to adamantine. Looking at the materials section of the DM guide, weapons made of adamantine can bypass a certain level of hardness, and are considered masterwork quality. Masterwork quality weapons are considered to have a +1 enhancement.
Level 16 Ki Strike = adamantine weapon = masterwork quality = +1 enhancement.
By level 4 in the base campaign you already have +1 weapons by then, so its absolute garbage. Likely this is why it does up to +3 enhancement, so you wouldn't have issues with fighting dragons, golems and such in chap 3/chap4 with your fists.
Maybe PotM could make it higher or set it up to acquire things sooner?
Sure, but a +3 cutting makes it equivalent to having enchanted adamantine at lvl 16 while giving you the freedom to use whatever bonus damaging gloves you like.
In terms of game balance, it's in a nice place for PotM, even if it is currently better than the D&D 3 edition equivalents that PotM draws upon. My personal opinion is that its great that they haven't been nerfed back down to 3e sources, and that where Ki Strike +3 sits is a sweet spot perfect for this server.
Perhaps it could be adjusted so that the Ki Strikes sit on levels 4, 10, 16 rather than 10 13 16 so its at the same points it improves in the players handbook (3.5 is the one I have anyway, not sure what the stages are in 3.0) but that's about it.
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monk strengths:
optimal crafting stat spread (wis/con)
free imp kd
free cleave
rapid blow for their 1d20 punches
immunity to poison
SR: 30, which is basically a 75% chance to resist a level 9 spell outright. Not all offensive spells are level 9.
pierce stoneskin by merely existing
immunity to mind spells, immunity to vallaki guard with 1/20
perpetual 60% speed that stacks with haste for zoomy bois
aforementioned speed permits gun monks, while not the strongest, to ensure you can kite somebody to death.
not weighed down by full plate, can get full plate ac from wis/greater wis potion cheese.
deflect an archer's first attack which is the highest ab.
improved evasion.
ethereal jaunt which makes you basically able to survive S.T.A.L.K.E.R-esque living conditions like the wall of RA on tap.
increase ac for merely existing, this goes up to +4 ac at 20.
punch of slaying, just in case you want to yeet a low level.
access to ms, hide, discipline, tumble, spot, listen and gets decent 4+int modifier allows to cover all your bases.
fort, reflex, will saves every level. uni saves at enchanted gear. cross-class spellcraft for more uni saves. get LoH/SS for more beefy saves.
DESPITE ALL THESE COOL PERKS, THEY STILL GET BONUS FEATS LIKE ANY OTHER CLASS. (2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20)
not gated behind an application and anyone can play it.
and you want +5 dr piercing?
You want ki-strike sooner to make their biggest weakness (a low level hell that everyone goes through) a lot more palatable?
+1. Knowing an end game monk will slap the teeth right out of the face of a paladin at lvl 20 in a straight up fight -without- being a gun monk, its been a bit exasperating and frankly tiring to see so many threads of late demanding what is possibly the best late game melee class be made even stronger still.
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monk strengths:
optimal crafting stat spread (wis/con)
free imp kd
free cleave
rapid blow for their 1d20 punches
immunity to poison
SR: 30, which is basically a 75% chance to resist a level 9 spell outright. Not all offensive spells are level 9.
pierce stoneskin by merely existing
immunity to mind spells, immunity to vallaki guard with 1/20
perpetual 60% speed that stacks with haste for zoomy bois
aforementioned speed permits gun monks, while not the strongest, to ensure you can kite somebody to death.
not weighed down by full plate, can get full plate ac from wis/greater wis potion cheese.
deflect an archer's first attack which is the highest ab.
improved evasion.
ethereal jaunt which makes you basically able to survive S.T.A.L.K.E.R-esque living conditions like the wall of RA on tap.
increase ac for merely existing, this goes up to +4 ac at 20.
punch of slaying, just in case you want to yeet a low level.
access to ms, hide, discipline, tumble, spot, listen and gets decent 4+int modifier allows to cover all your bases.
fort, reflex, will saves every level. uni saves at enchanted gear. cross-class spellcraft for more uni saves. get LoH/SS for more beefy saves.
DESPITE ALL THESE COOL PERKS, THEY STILL GET BONUS FEATS LIKE ANY OTHER CLASS. (2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20)
not gated behind an application and anyone can play it.
and you want +5 dr piercing?
You want ki-strike sooner to make their biggest weakness (a low level hell that everyone goes through) a lot more palatable?
There's a few misunderstandings in here:
Pierce stoneskin : Last I checked, stoneskin is +4. You could pierce ethereal visage at lvl 16, though.
Rapid blow for their 1d20 punches : you don't get 1d20 punches until lvl 16. And even then, only for medium-sized. Small-sized gets 2d6 at best. So for most of that, you're hitting for 1d6 to 1d12. And not much else,sans enhancements, cause a lot of monks go for Dex-based builds.
SR: 30, which is basically a 75% chance to resist a level 9 spell outright. Not all offensive spells are level 9 : Far as I know, that's not how SR works. It's not dependant on spell level, it's dependant on Caster Level, amongst other factors. A mage that can cast lvl 9 spells, lvl 17? Without greater spell penetration ( which is unlikely), He'd have to roll a 13. So....65%, if you're lvl 20. With greater spell penetration, it's a 40% chance. If the caster is equal level 20? 30%. That's still not bad, but a bit of a far cry from 75%.
immunity to mind spells, immunity to vallaki guard with 1/20 : That IS true....But that's something you get at lvl 20. It also functions as a weakness, because now you're an outsider and you can be banished. Admittedly, with a Monk's will saves, you should be fine.
I get what you're saying, though. Monks get good stuff. Sure, they don't utterly -need- improved ki strikes. But I've levelled a Monk. 1 to 8? It's shit, unless you got a warder or a team on call. You don't play because the class is fun, you play because of the roleplay.
Which, perhaps, is what it should be about.
But that's my personal opinion, not fact.
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1. You're right on stoneskin. I'm not sure why I thought the regular version had +3.
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2. You're also right on sr checks, too. 20 (caster level) + 4 (greater spell pen) = 24
Subtract 24 from 30 and you got 6 leftover.
the equalizer is the 1d20 that gets rolled so you need to roll a 6 or higher.
30% to resist a full on level 20 spellcaster that's spec'd in it if you did get jumped. So, yes, you'd be pretty helpless from an igms spam if you didn't run away.
A monk has a d8 which lets assume it's a 10 con monk, 160 hp.
You get jumped with IGMS, 20 missles that go between 2 - 5 damage. 40 - 100 damage. It's possible to get smoked in two rounds and I only bring up IGMS because the rest is ethereal jaunted. This also assumes the wizard didn't take pale master fotm and is pretty helpless against you outright because they only have 10 wizard levels.
Also congratulations, you're as spell resistant as a half-orc barbarian with 0 of the effort or feat investment.
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3. Tried to banish a 20 monk on the test server. You're still humanoid in terms of mechanical power as far as I know.
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I hate monk players because I ain't monk players. I didn't want to do the extreme self-discipline role-play that entails it and forsake various aspects of being an avaricious adventurer but then I find out you can still role-play a whoring, boozing monk and nothing happens to you. Meanwhile, I had to spend a lot of time getting the weapon master PrC (which, ironically, entails a lot of self-discipline roleplay to channel ki in your weapon) and had to navigate the bureaucracy to be a filthy mundane with a 17 - 20 crit range.
And they get so much quality of life that can only be appreciated when you play a non-caster. Do you know how cool it is to zoom throughout the module at 60% gathering herbs? Sure, the low levels are terrible but that's the case for everyone. When the master strat 1- 5 is krofburg - vallaki drug running and that's regardless of whether or not you're a monk or not that's a testament to how grueling the low level experience is otherwise. But eventually you get levels, gear, and some friends and before you know it you're doing Har'akir runs.
But don't mind me, I'm just kind of having an existential crisis right now and despite being lvl 14 right now, I still feel tempted to reroll a monk and put in the month of effort to become a god. Please, give monks +4 and +5 ki strike so I can also be a punchy arcane archer on top of everything else. (sans damage, but wizards are nerds you can shove in lockers regardless.)
I just feel sorry for the people that actually had to put up with Halan roleplay to become a hallowed witch. Little did they know they could've just played a monk and it probably won't ever get nerfed or re-adjusted.
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1. You're right on stoneskin. I'm not sure why I thought the regular version had +3.
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2. You're also right on sr checks, too. 20 (caster level) + 4 (greater spell pen) = 24
Subtract 24 from 30 and you got 6 leftover.
the equalizer is the 1d20 that gets rolled so you need to roll a 6 or higher.
30% to resist a full on level 20 spellcaster that's spec'd in it if you did get jumped. So, yes, you'd be pretty helpless from an igms spam if you didn't run away.
A monk has a d8 which lets assume it's a 10 con monk, 160 hp.
You get jumped with IGMS, 20 missles that go between 2 - 5 damage. 40 - 100 damage. It's possible to get smoked in two rounds and I only bring up IGMS because the rest is ethereal jaunted. This also assumes the wizard didn't take pale master fotm and is pretty helpless against you outright because they only have 10 wizard levels.
Also congratulations, you're as spell resistant as a half-orc barbarian with 0 of the effort or feat investment.
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3. Tried to banish a 20 monk on the test server. You're still humanoid in terms of mechanical power as far as I know.
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I hate monk players because I ain't monk players. I didn't want to do the extreme self-discipline role-play that entails it and forsake various aspects of being an avaricious adventurer but then I find out you can still role-play a whoring, boozing monk and nothing happens to you. Meanwhile, I had to spend a lot of time getting the weapon master PrC (which, ironically, entails a lot of self-discipline roleplay to channel ki in your weapon) and had to navigate the bureaucracy to be a filthy mundane with a 17 - 20 crit range.
And they get so much quality of life that can only be appreciated when you play a non-caster. Do you know how cool it is to zoom throughout the module at 60% gathering herbs? Sure, the low levels are terrible but that's the case for everyone. When the master strat 1- 5 is krofburg - vallaki drug running and that's regardless of whether or not you're a monk or not that's a testament to how grueling the low level experience is otherwise. But eventually you get levels, gear, and some friends and before you know it you're doing Har'akir runs.
But don't mind me, I'm just kind of having an existential crisis right now and despite being lvl 14 right now, I still feel tempted to reroll a monk and put in the month of effort to become a god. Please, give monks +4 and +5 ki strike so I can also be a punchy arcane archer on top of everything else. (sans damage, but wizards are nerds you can shove in lockers regardless.)
I just feel sorry for the people that actually had to put up with Halan roleplay to become a hallowed witch. Little did they know they could've just played a monk and it probably won't ever get nerfed or re-adjusted.
One : +4 and +5 would be interesting, but I was more gearing towards suggesting ( not demanding, I'm no developer) getting Ki Strike +1 to 2 a little earlier, because it would not affect the class balance overly much. By the time you're lvl 10, you either already have a group you travel with that gives you magic weapon, or you have your own varnishes, polishing clothes, however. It's still useful for when magic gets dispelled, true….
Two : I always figured most PrC's were more for roleplay flavor then powerbuilding, with a few exceptions.
Three : A whoring, boozing monk that isn't specialized in Drunken Monkey/Boxing is kinda weird, I'll give you that. And yes, I'm aware actual martial artists of those style don't usually drink, but it's a common enough stereotype that it doesn't seem too farfetched for roleplay.
Four : Maybe I'm just not that hardcore into grinding, but it seems damn difficult to me to level a character from 1 to 16 in the span of a month. Or even 12, which arguably the starting point of Monks becoming awesome.
Five : I admittedly haven't even actively played a monk since before they added the fiery fist and Ki Blast feats, except a brief moment during the NCE, for nostalgia's sake. Which is where the idea for my suggestion came from, in fact. Maybe some actual monk players can chime in on this?
Otherwhise…..Honestly, this thread is going nowhere then, I think. The suggestion has been made, feedback has been given, enough said. Maybe it's best if a moderator locks the thread, before it devolves into something awful?
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Otherwhise…..Honestly, this thread is going nowhere then, I think. The suggestion has been made, feedback has been given, enough said. Maybe it's best if a moderator locks the thread, before it devolves into something awful?
A lot of the criticism of your suggestion has been pretty scatter gun / kitchen sink and seems borne of a resentment toward the class (and even, admittedly, toward the players of monks themselves!). Venting by those having "existential" crises is more a reflection on the person than the topic.
Although I have idea of how unbalancing your suggestion might be, your manner in presenting it or its limited scope hardly seem worthy of the vitriolic reaction it has sparked.
I know of four relatively recently active high-level monks. None of them I would characterize as striking fear into their opponents or engendering the kind of respect high level druids and high level mages do. Three of the four I know of being easily beaten in single duels.
The most striking advantage about monks--their blinding speed--seems to me to be isolating on a server that emphasizes group play: to take full advantage of it, the monk must forego the company of other classes.
Otherwise, I have no opinion about the merits of your proposed buff. Perhaps some actual monk players should weigh in, if they haven't been berated into submission by the previous anti-monk screeds :D
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I firmly disagree with the suggestion to give any class a flat +4 (much less +5) enhancement bonus. With the exception of perhaps Arcane Archer, as it exists in vanilla.
Throw in the fact that their base damage at those levels is 1d20 and it should be a no-brainer that this would be an enormous buff to an already quite viable class.
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Monk speed is hardly isolating in terms of group play. You contribute greatly retrieving the bodies and can juke the NPCs quite easily with a good latency if you're a str-based monk with stealth access. To be less memey, Irdni, the feats of strength they're capable of is quite potent in the hands of a capable player (so experience might vary player to player) and a good monk player cannot easily be stopped with the tools they have access to.
You play a cleric so there's not really a whole lot you can do against a determined high-level gun monk, for example. You might even put up a good fight but the only course of reasonable action to even catch up to one is to hide behind an NPC and attack them when they aren't expecting it.
But I'd like an actual monk player to chime in and explain how they're not insanely good in the context of the server. It's just a waiting game and if your character can live long enough, you achieve mechanical nirvana.
edit: Even better, it'd be nice to have a developer explain to me where I'm wrong. I imagine they're the ones that play the game the most and are the most up-to-date on the mechanics.
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The most striking advantage about monks--their blinding speed--seems to me to be isolating on a server that emphasizes group play: to take full advantage of it, the monk must forego the company of other classes.
That's thematic in a way, but to be honest, it is also very useful in group content the higher level you get, as well as seeking out RP and minimising time spent between areas where people are RPing. The monk basically teleports to where the casters are and just kills them with 5+ APR (first strike, cleave, AoO, flurry, haste all being full AB). It also means they can flee very safely without needing to ever dodge an AoO, which, for some classes who have to decide whether to wait for the right moment to walk out of combat or risk the AoO, is pretty nice. This class can gather every herb in a map and still reach the destination before the rest of the group. They can run between hubs without danger at a fraction of the time other classes can, so if one is empty, they can move on to find RP in the next. They can run someone back to be resurrected faster, so that's less time waiting for the rest of the group in the dungeon. It all compounds. It is a massive convenience at worst and at best it's a great boost that has a lot of synergy with the rest of not only your kit, but your team too.
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The most striking advantage about monks--their blinding speed--seems to me to be isolating on a server that emphasizes group play: to take full advantage of it, the monk must forego the company of other classes.
That's thematic in a way, but to be honest, it is also very useful in group content the higher level you get, as well as seeking out RP and minimising time spent between areas where people are RPing. The monk basically teleports to where the casters are and just kills them with 5+ APR (first strike, cleave, AoO, flurry, haste all being full AB). It also means they can flee very safely without needing to ever dodge an AoO, which, for some classes who have to decide whether to wait for the right moment to walk out of combat or risk the AoO, is pretty nice. This class can gather every herb in a map and still reach the destination before the rest of the group. They can run between hubs without danger at a fraction of the time other classes can, so if one is empty, they can move on to find RP in the next. They can run someone back to be resurrected faster, so that's less time waiting for the rest of the group in the dungeon. It all compounds. It is a massive convenience at worst and at best it's a great boost that has a lot of synergy with the rest of not only your kit, but your team too.
That sounds good in theory, but we also play in an environment prone to lag, crashes, and other bugs. A class relying on precision and timing is more likely to fall victim to these hazards.
Do you play a high level monk? Going by what I've observed, at least, they tend to be (as one would expect for the class) loners who have to work harder than most to find groups and a place to fit--which is the greatest challenge IMO on the server. Compare, for example, the versatility and adaptability of a bard.
I don't know that the class needs buffing, especially this change. But to me the most objective measure of whether a class is "in a good place" is how many players are choosing to play the class. I've never seen a big clamor for monks, and instead have seen many new players choose the class early on with great enthusiasm and then abandon the PC in frustration. (Most everyone seems to concede that in the early stages monk life is difficult.)
To veer even farther from Ken's slight suggestion, my own preference is that Devs continue to focus on fixing what we have and enhancing the general experience of the server with changes that impact the greatest number of PCs. If something is egregiously wrong with a class, then maybe that deserves attention. Most classes, however, I know too little about to speak to.
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Monks should lose duels. Standing and fighting in a duel is literally the form of combat that cancels out the Monk's main advantage, the ability to not be pinned down.
The problem is, the fact that Monks can grind and get Hearts of the Beast means that actually they can punch way above their weight in duels, and PvP in general.
So monks can achieve full AB, combine that with Flurry of Blows, and effectively have +10 AC over their PnP counterparts; they're already incredibly stronger than their PnP counterparts.
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I agree with dante, their inherent ki-strike should never reach beyond +3.
Most high level monks I know of make good use of parties to dungeon and they can do a fine job with the right buffs. Just like other characters in "level appropriate" content.
One thing that I could entertain is the first ki-strike coming down into the 6ish range to help with quality of life without affecting end game balance, as their pre-teen levels are more challenging than most other classes. Even still, monks, and any other fist fighters, have a great variety of gauntlets to make use of, and the dmg stacking that can happen on said gauntlets is amazing. Nearly enough bring their dmg on par with more conventional tanks. More than adequate considering all the good things monks get in addition.
As with most classes, things are playable when you know what resources are available and when to use them.
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The most striking advantage about monks--their blinding speed--seems to me to be isolating on a server that emphasizes group play: to take full advantage of it, the monk must forego the company of other classes.
That's thematic in a way, but to be honest, it is also very useful in group content the higher level you get, as well as seeking out RP and minimising time spent between areas where people are RPing. The monk basically teleports to where the casters are and just kills them with 5+ APR (first strike, cleave, AoO, flurry, haste all being full AB). It also means they can flee very safely without needing to ever dodge an AoO, which, for some classes who have to decide whether to wait for the right moment to walk out of combat or risk the AoO, is pretty nice. This class can gather every herb in a map and still reach the destination before the rest of the group. They can run between hubs without danger at a fraction of the time other classes can, so if one is empty, they can move on to find RP in the next. They can run someone back to be resurrected faster, so that's less time waiting for the rest of the group in the dungeon. It all compounds. It is a massive convenience at worst and at best it's a great boost that has a lot of synergy with the rest of not only your kit, but your team too.
That sounds good in theory, but we also play in an environment prone to lag, crashes, and other bugs. A class relying on precision and timing is more likely to fall victim to these hazards.
Do you play a high level monk? Going by what I've observed, at least, they tend to be (as one would expect for the class) loners who have to work harder than most to find groups and a place to fit--which is the greatest challenge IMO on the server. Compare, for example, the versatility and adaptability of a bard.
I don't know that the class needs buffing, especially this change. But to me the most objective measure of whether a class is "in a good place" is how many players are choosing to play the class. I've never seen a big clamor for monks, and instead have seen many new players choose the class early on with great enthusiasm and then abandon the PC in frustration. (Most everyone seems to concede that in the early stages monk life is difficult.)
To veer even farther from Ken's slight suggestion, my own preference is that Devs continue to focus on fixing what we have and enhancing the general experience of the server with changes that impact the greatest number of PCs. If something is egregiously wrong with a class, then maybe that deserves attention. Most classes, however, I know too little about to speak to.
Only one or two of those things I mentioned really require precision of any kind, anyway, and I don't think there's much precision in waiting for your number to be up then clicking on a caster from across the room and just watching it die. You don't even need Knockdown chains to win. For reference, the characters I play require me to be up in the enemy's face to deal damage but also leave combat to heal others. I have to click on the ground more than I have to click on enemies both on my melee and my ranged character, or I'll trigger a series of instant death AoOs, or run into melee combat with a longbow out, or waste a spell... etc. and that is what real positioning precision looks like.
Neither of these characters are anywhere close to optimal and they are hybridized in a way that provides party utility over personal specialisation. Pures wipe me out mechanically, rendering my characters superfluous to any task at hand. I'd like to think besides their unique support roles in a party, they end up in groups for other reasons. If there's a Monk that people like being around, he'll end up in a group too.
Just so happens Monks need support--as do Barbarians, Fighters, anyone really, when things get challenging, needs a mix of Divine and Arcane support, crafted gear, and good loot. My support characters play fairly often with Monks, and I love watching them zoom around and tie enemies up. They benefit more from it than any other class because of the number of APR they throw out. I've seen them churn enemies like nothing else and tank like maniacs. A Monk only 2 levels above me once punched my 14 CON character as a joke and half my HP disappeared because 2 attacks triggered simultaneously, and neither were critical hits. I want more Monks in my parties, they've always been more than sufficient contributors, who require no more support than anyone else (simply a different kind of support--different spell choices, etc.) but make great use of what they're given, and their characters are generally eccentric in a way that is intriguing to me.
That said, if they do have a particularly weak early game, sure, they could get some help there. But I have not observed them having an especially weak early game, in fact, I have watched them get by decently well, usually as their only backup as a healer, buffer, flank, or tank. I think there are some things that could be changed about them, but what? A d10 hit die? They have a lot of utility as is, they make great sneaks, crafters of all types... they might not be Bards but my experience playing with Monks has generally been positive, so I don't really know what they need, but I'm coming from the perspective of someone who thinks PvP is always going to be unbalanced, even in terms of two people swinging at each other in the Mist Camp, letting the dice decide their fate. But in so many categories listed above, they excel or they do fine like anyone else. Perhaps I'm biased because I exclusively play party support and I make sure my Monks are getting their uniques, which I learned from running with them often. These characters are long time NWN players, though, and that kind of enlightenment is particularly important, as this class needs to be built and played a certain way.
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I don't know that the class needs buffing, especially this change. But to me the most objective measure of whether a class is "in a good place" is how many players are choosing to play the class.
It's not an objective measure for a roleplaying server where many people are weighing more than mechanics in their decisions.
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I don't know that the class needs buffing, especially this change. But to me the most objective measure of whether a class is "in a good place" is how many players are choosing to play the class.
It's not an objective measure for a roleplaying server where many people are weighing more than mechanics in their decisions.
Sure it is. First, an objective measure doesn't need to capture everything to be objective. A number is objective. Full stop.
You can dispute whether it is "most objective"--although I did qualify with "to me" :)
To respond to your point, regardless of which factors players weigh in their decision, the decision is still binary: do they choose to play the class or not? That decision captures the totality of their thinking, including RP and mechanics and the rewards of each.
For example, ECL is a huge mechanical detriment. But when players ask that the ECL be softened, the Team inevitably responds that those races are to be granted primarily for the RP reward and not the mechanical advantage.
Paladins have RP restrictions and huge penalties for falling because of the class's mechanical advantages.
Prestige Classes carry inherent "bling" that is partly the reason for the burden of applying, not necessarily that they are all mechanically advantageous or should be.
All of those factors should be weighed when evaluating whether a class is "balanced"--and wise players do so in making their playing decisions.
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I do play a very high level monk currently and I don't see necessity to give monks ability to penetrate x/+4 damage reduction. What I'd want to see to be done to Ki strike feat is small adjustment of level when the feat is given first time. Let it be level five or six.
As for other opinions stated regarding various aspects of monk's pros and cons ... I'll tell this: monk's main advantage is her speed. Not only speed of movement, but also a speed of attacks represented as number of the attacks, but in comparison with pnp nwn crippled that important ability for martial/melee class. Flurry of blows is implemented, but it's not this:
When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.
Greater flurry isn't implemented either.
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.
Sadly, PoTM developers can not add neither of flurry adjustments listed above. These feats are hardcoded. That brings another question to my mind. If perhaps the main ability of a class does not work properly, perhaps class' martial prowess can be altered in other ways.
My suggestion is to give monk opportunity to pick Martial Supremacy feat not on lvl 20, but rather at 13 (the worst lvl in entire monk progression) or at 14, when all other melee classes get a first chance to pick it.
That certainly wouldn't be a gamebreaking change, just +1 ab in the mid lvls, but it'll help.
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I don't know that the class needs buffing, especially this change. But to me the most objective measure of whether a class is "in a good place" is how many players are choosing to play the class.
It's not an objective measure for a roleplaying server where many people are weighing more than mechanics in their decisions.
Sure it is. First, an objective measure doesn't need to capture everything to be objective. A number is objective. Full stop.
You can dispute whether it is "most objective"--although I did qualify with "to me" :)
To respond to your point, regardless of which factors players weigh in their decision, the decision is still binary: do they choose to play the class or not? That decision captures the totality of their thinking, including RP and mechanics and the rewards of each.
For example, ECL is a huge mechanical detriment. But when players ask that the ECL be softened, the Team inevitably responds that those races are to be granted primarily for the RP reward and not the mechanical advantage.
Paladins have RP restrictions and huge penalties for falling because of the class's mechanical advantages.
Prestige Classes carry inherent "bling" that is partly the reason for the burden of applying, not necessarily that they are all mechanically advantageous or should be.
All of those factors should be weighed when evaluating whether a class is "balanced"--and wise players do so in making their playing decisions.
That logic doesn't really follow to me. The number of people playing a class is an objective fact, yes, but one can't just project on other players and make assumptions about the reasons for those numbers.
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Monks should lose duels. Standing and fighting in a duel is literally the form of combat that cancels out the Monk's main advantage, the ability to not be pinned down.
The problem is, the fact that Monks can grind and get Hearts of the Beast means that actually they can punch way above their weight in duels, and PvP in general.
So monks can achieve full AB, combine that with Flurry of Blows, and effectively have +10 AC over their PnP counterparts; they're already incredibly stronger than their PnP counterparts.
+10 AC from tumble and parry I assume? It's a great bonus indeed but not one that is exclusive to monks. When assessing bonuses, one should always do so in the context of the server, because if everyone gets 2 to 4 extra AC from tumble (depending on whether or not it is a class skill for the character) then encounters will be balanced with that in mind. And remember, this AC doesn't come for free. You have to spend points in two skills for that. If we are to compare the pnp monk with the Potm one, then we also have to consider that the pnp one gets two full skills and a few more skill points than the Potm one, because he doesn't have to max out parry and discipline, which don't exist in pnp but are core combat skills here (technically you can skip them but you'd have to be crazy) and could leave tumble to 14 after dex modifier with no need for a base rank of 20 since he wouldn't get AC out of it. All these skill points are just as many points the Potm monk can't put towards other skills if he wants to be effective in combat. Skills that could have been used for other things than surviving combat, such as influence.
Also, bear in mind that this AC gain is mitigated by the fact that items with attribute bonuses don't exist here, and monks are dependant on wis and dex bonuses for AC. Yes, you can momentarily boost these with consumables but it isn't nearly as powerful as constantly having these bonuses. As for full BAB, well yes for a pvp fight, eating a heart of the beast for 17 rounds of full BAB will do. But I'd hate the server's balance to be based on PVP, when it represents such a tiny portion of our playtime.
I don't think monks should win every duel, nor should any class really, but to say they're not supposed to fight in this way seems preposterous to me. Yes, monks are very fast, but you can't actually hit and run effectively in NWN unless you have stealth so what are they supposed to do if they don't have stealth (and no, stealth skills, while nice, shouldn't be considered core skills for the class; no sneak attacks or particular advantage for stealth besides fast walk speed, nor is every monk flavored to be some kind of ninja )? Yes, they could run and gun instead but this is hardly what a traditional monk is designed to do.
That being said I do think the monk is very strong here when buffed enough. I'd really love it though if they had the option to use charisma instead of wisdom for their class abilities. There are precedents for that in pnp and that would make it much easier to build a leader type monk using their influence class skill.
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That logic doesn't really follow to me. The number of people playing a class is an objective fact, yes, but one can't just project on other players and make assumptions about the reasons for those numbers.
I'm not projecting anything or assuming anything except that players are free agents and are making reasonably informed choices.
To illustrate the logic in its most simple case, imagine you have only fighters and wizards to choose from. If all players choose wizards and no players choose fighters, which class would you look at possibly needing improving?
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Regarding dueling, I brought that up only because Nemesis said "an end game monk will slap the teeth right out of the face of a paladin at lvl 20 in a straight up fight." I'm not arguing that the monk should win such duels, but that the situation does not seem as one-sided as Nem's example describes.
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That logic doesn't really follow to me. The number of people playing a class is an objective fact, yes, but one can't just project on other players and make assumptions about the reasons for those numbers.
I'm not projecting anything or assuming anything except that players are free agents and are making reasonably informed choices.
To illustrate the logic in its most simple case, imagine you have only fighters and wizards to choose from. If all players choose wizards and no players choose fighters, which class would you look at possibly needing improving?
I might consider that there are more reasons than mechanical ones for people choosing only fighters. Maybe less people enjoy the wizard RP.
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But I'd like an actual monk player to chime in and explain how they're not insanely good in the context of the server. It's just a waiting game and if your character can live long enough, you achieve mechanical nirvana.
Context is a bit vague. There's PVE, PVP, and general things you do in between (quality of life, general NWN experience)
I'm pretty sure that most classes look powerful when you examine them at max level.
Compared to bards, clerics and wizards that can steamroll the server both in PVE and PVP due to the casting power that take them light years ahead of mundane classes in terms of self-reliance, monk is definitely weaker in active combat by themselves. They can survive pretty much anything you throw at them if they pay attention, but it doesn't mean they'll overcome any serious threat in PVE or PVP either because that survival generally involves running away and living to fight smarter another day.
In terms of quality of life though, I'd rate them second to none since you don't have a whole lot to worry about. Itemization is straightforward even if expensive (~200-250k if you want the good loot). Speed lets you move around from hub to hub and generally you can get more things done for the time you put in. Having carry weight is also nice.
If survival is your top priority, then yes the class is insanely good. If you want to actually impose your might on other players in PVP or on a PVE dungeon in a party context, just play a bard, cleric, wizard, or paladin, or even a STR ranger, and you'll be miles ahead.
As a side note, I don't think Ki-Strike particularly needs a buff. The fact they get DR Piercing 3 is already good considering other mundane classes have access to adamantine weaponry (which gives AB and DMG, not just DR Piercing at a hefty financial cost), and casters get Greater Magic Weapon on tap to pump EB to +4. Paladins and Rangers are the only ones with access to +5 if I'm not mistaken (Holy Sword and Banebow).
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On the subject of ki strike, I have to say this: at the levels you get those feats, they are mostly fluff, because you're likely going to have other means to get your fists to pierce dr all on your own, be it gilded gauntlets, enchanted gauntlets at lvl 14+, or varnishes. If you did get at least ki strike +1 at a lower level, that would be much more useful.
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But I'd like an actual monk player to chime in and explain how they're not insanely good in the context of the server. It's just a waiting game and if your character can live long enough, you achieve mechanical nirvana.
Context is a bit vague. There's PVE, PVP, and general things you do in between (quality of life, general NWN experience)
I'm pretty sure that most classes look powerful when you examine them at max level.
Compared to bards, clerics and wizards that can steamroll the server both in PVE and PVP due to the casting power that take them light years ahead of mundane classes in terms of self-reliance, monk is definitely weaker in active combat by themselves. They can survive pretty much anything you throw at them if they pay attention, but it doesn't mean they'll overcome any serious threat in PVE or PVP either because that survival generally involves running away and living to fight smarter another day.
In terms of quality of life though, I'd rate them second to none since you don't have a whole lot to worry about. Itemization is straightforward even if expensive (~200-250k if you want the good loot). Speed lets you move around from hub to hub and generally you can get more things done for the time you put in. Having carry weight is also nice.
If survival is your top priority, then yes the class is insanely good. If you want to actually impose your might on other players in PVP or on a PVE dungeon in a party context, just play a bard, cleric, wizard, or paladin, or even a STR ranger, and you'll be miles ahead.
As a side note, I don't think Ki-Strike particularly needs a buff. The fact they get DR Piercing 3 is already good considering other mundane classes have access to adamantine weaponry (which gives AB and DMG, not just DR Piercing at a hefty financial cost), and casters get Greater Magic Weapon on tap to pump EB to +4. Paladins and Rangers are the only ones with access to +5 if I'm not mistaken (Holy Sword and Banebow).
+1
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As for full BAB, well yes for a pvp fight, eating a heart of the beast for 17 rounds of full BAB will do. But I'd hate the server's balance to be based on PVP, when it represents such a tiny portion of our playtime.
The reason Heart of the Beast is considered mostly for PvP is because context matters.
A Heart of the Beast is a minor boost in PvE; it's good for a short fight, lets you kill one big boss and/or a couple of room fulls of mobs, but it's nothing you couldn't replicate through hard work. Dungeons are there to be beaten.
It's a major boost in PvP because the consequences and effects are sharper and will impact other players directly: a Heart of the Beast can easily utterly turn the tide for a PvP fight. In the hands of a Monk, this is all the more noticeable given his unparallelled strengths as a Flanker/Harrier.
I don't think monks should win every duel, nor should any class really, but to say they're not supposed to fight in this way seems preposterous to me. Yes, monks are very fast, but you can't actually hit and run effectively in NWN unless you have stealth so what are they supposed to do if they don't have stealth (and no, stealth skills, while nice, shouldn't be considered core skills for the class; no sneak attacks or particular advantage for stealth besides fast walk speed, nor is every monk flavored to be some kind of ninja )? Yes, they could run and gun instead but this is hardly what a traditional monk is designed to do.
As someone who's actually tried to catch high level Monks in PvP, I couldn't disagree more.
Yes, hit and run tactics are effective. In fact that's what Monks are built to do: more than any class, they have the ability to retreat from a bad fight, heal, rebuff, and come back for more. No class is as good at survival as the Monk.
Yes, stealth matters. Most frontline classes make poor detectors, and Monks will have the easiest time of any class to use corner-stealthing. Even if you can't do that, they also have access to Shrouded Dance here, so you're almost certain to get at least one stealth attempt off.
And while not all monks will have the ranged fire power of the gun monk, nonetheless they exist.
So I think the truly preposterous suggestion is that a class that can outrun, out-sneak, and situationally outshoot most frontliner classes, should also reliably be able to go toe-to-toe against them in melee as well. I mean, in what circumstances should a Monk actually be at a disadvantage?!
Because if he can outrun and outfight anybody -- at least with on par builds and buffs -- then the Monk has no real weaknesses. At least no weaknesses other than "getting ganked while unbuffed", which is not an unique weakness. Are we supposed to take Iridni's flippant suggestion that the only way to kill a monk is to hope he crashes at face value?
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If you run to heal and rebuff, you give your opponent the time to do the same. Eventually, unless you have more healing consumables than your opponent, you will lose the fight if you're weaker, it'll just take longer.
What I mean by "hit and run" is attacking then using your speed to retreat before the opponent has time to riposte, which can't really be done in NWN unless you're attacking from stealth.
The problem with assuming that every monk will have stealth (and shrouded dance) just because it's a class skill is that on a class that already has 3 core combat skills that they can't do without on Potm (tumble, parry and discipline ) you're encouraging them to always take two more skills (hide/ms) and five points of perform on top of that. Balancing the game around the assumption that every monk will have all these skills simply kills creativity and leads to all players of the class going for very similar builds because anything else is not viable. Monks are already very restricted in terms of ability score distribution needing str for damage (even if dex based) as well as AB if str based, dex for AC, as well as AB if dex based, con for hp, especially considering that they're a melee class with d8 HP, wis for AC and a few classes feats. If we consider that stealth is a core part of the class, then they need int too because the demands in terms of skill points are just too damn high. No wonder every monk goes with 8 cha (well, it's also because alas there aren't much real consequences here for dumping cha).
Now, I'm not asking for any actual buff to the class ( I'd rather have ways to give it more diversity than a straight buff), as I think it's strong enough, but suggesting that every monk should be a sneaker and never fight in the "honorable" way, even though being a vicious sneaker doesn't fit every monk flavour wise, kinda upsets me.
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On the other hand, balancing the game around non-optimal builds is implicitly allowing optimal builds to be OP.
All other classes have much more distinct disadvantages. Yet we already live in the state where a Monk can build to heavily counter if not completely nullify their disadvantages (as long as they has the time and energy to grind, sure, but nonetheless); the usual disadvantage that a Monk won't hit as hard as a full BAB class, yet that is addressed here... with alchemy, enchanted gloves, and Divine Power, a Monk will hit like a truck. (Heck, my latest newbie character got a Heart of the Beast by level 6 or earlier and a late game character could have a bag full of these.)
I understand how to someone with a different lived experience, it may seem unfair and obsessive to focus on particular builds played by people willing to put in the time and effort to grind gear, but the Monk's strengths and abilities do put the class in a niche of its own, because a class that can easily escape is also a class that can easily stop others escaping. (It's telling that Monk/Assassin is generally considered something of a sidegrade or even a downgrade over pure Monk.)
Now, I'm personally pretty relaxed about PvE or low level stuff, so I wouldn't mind to see a Monk be boosted for that, but the factors above are why you'll see some of us pushing back against general improvements to the Monk that also benefit PvP, especially at high levels.
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On the other hand, balancing the game around non-optimal builds is implicitly allowing optimal builds to be OP.
I'm okay with that. This a RP server. RP must come first. That means there must be room for non optimal builds, unless we want all characters to look the same.
If someone heavily powergames, dumping stats because they have no combat utility for him and only putting points in combat related skills, then they should face RP consequences for it. That's how you balance an RP server right IMO.
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Or maybe it's the "honourable monk" who doesn't build to take advantage of all his class abilities who should face the consequences of his choices.
Edit Note: Also: please stop presenting the Monk ability to take Discipline, Parry and Tumble as Class Skills as a "necessity" that takes away from their class diversity. The ability to take these Skills in class is in fact a Class strength, not an obligation -- just ask the Wizards and Clerics -- and the encouragement to take high Int is hardly unique to Monks. Hells, some people take Int 16 on Rogues and Bards.
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To further clarify a point above:
Most builds here encourage Intelligence 14 to pick up Skill Points, even cross Class, because Skills are so strong on PotM. This is not a Monk specific issue.
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It is a class strength but it IS also a necessity that takes away from class diversity, and I'm not talking just about monk here. Think about all the fighters who have to take discipline and cross class tumble to keep up when they only have 2+int mod skill points per level. In pnp, these points could be spent elsewhere. When you make a skill so strong that it becomes mandatory, you're inevitably taking away from class diversity, because characters who can take the skill but choose not to become unable to keep up, as the encounters are balanced around them having said skill.
Admittedly yes, needing a lot of skills for the sole purpose of combat/dungeonneering is a general problem. It is one we should strive to diminish rather than encourage unless we want to always see the same cookie cutters builds. Heck maybe give every class more skill points just like every class was given more feats.
Or maybe it's the "honourable monk" who doesn't build to take advantage of all his class abilities who should face the consequences of his choices.
This strikes me as an odd thing to say in an RP server where cheesing is forbidden. If you dumped charisma because you wanted to powergame you SHOULD face the consequences of that. If instead you choose to dodge the consequences by playing your character all charming and silvertongued even though you have 8 cha, you are cheesing thus breaking the rules. If you haven't invested in influence yet play a skilled liar you are cheesing thus breaking the rules. Etc etc. Thus a correctly roleplayed character will face RP consequences for min maxing, just as a character built with RP considerations in mind will face the consequences of being mechanically inferior to its min maxed equivalent (he should still be viable however, because hopefully, in an RP server, powerbuilding is not required)
Again, I'd really like it if we wouldn't encourage the current situation where most chars who are not cha classes have 6 or 8 cha because "who cares, there aren't much real consequences".
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Many of the things you are asking are already implemented.
You are free to go through easier content than your peers if you are wishing to have more variety and less specialization. A person who builds (and RPs) a truly dedicated character is then punished by being brought to equivalency to another who didn't have single minded pursuit to be the pinnacle of their specialty.
They suffer in variety as your concept suffers in peak strength. This is an RP server, and you say that others should not worry about power or perfection. But that is just what you are arguing for yourself and your preferred build/concept.
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It is a class strength but it IS also a necessity that takes away from class diversity, and I'm not talking just about monk here. Think about all the fighters who have to take discipline and cross class tumble to keep up when they only have 2+int mod skill points per level. In pnp, these points could be spent elsewhere.
Funnily enough, you never hear Fighters complaining about this, even though Fighters are arguably the worst class overall, even with all the changes. At any rate, this is a moot point.
This strikes me as an odd thing to say in an RP server where cheesing is forbidden.
I'm not saying that someone who takes CHA 8 shouldn't suffer consequences (though mostly, beyond the OCR hit, those are up to DMs to enforce). Nor am I saying that someone playing with CHA 8 should or could roleplay as a smooth-talking rake.
I'm saying that a Monk who doesn't buy into stealth has no grounds to complain about not being as PvP viable as stealth Monks; stealth is a major facet in PvP and Monks who choose not to buy into it are choosing to be at a disadvantage in PvP.
And that's fine; not everyone wants to build to full PvP potential, nor should everyone feel they have to. But it is short-sighted to say we should balance matters around non-optimal PvP choices and that therefore the "honourable" monk should be able to punch harder or generally be more viable, and then ignore the balance consequences that happen when we give stealth Monks the same advantage. And the stealth Monk is already in a very strong place in PvP.
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Many of the things you are asking are already implemented.
You are free to go through easier content than your peers if you are wishing to have more variety and less specialization. A person who builds (and RPs) a truly dedicated character is then punished by being brought to equivalency to another who didn't have single minded pursuit to be the pinnacle of their specialty.
They suffer in variety as your concept suffers in peak strength. This is an RP server, and you say that others should not worry about power or perfection. But that is just what you are arguing for yourself and your preferred build/concept.
I suppose I'm heavily focusing on the mechanical strength because that really seems to be the only deciding factor. From what I understand, there's only a handful of active DMs and they already focus most of their energy into their group so if you put points into social skills or non-optimal skills like spot as opposed to listen, you're not really penalized that hard for playing a single-minded killing machine. Maybe it speaks to me as a player, but I was never really good enough to get a DM that RP'd with my crew in the mist camp and we mainly did dungeon runs. I fear the Count and his men 1000000000% less than some of the guys that had the time grind out the levels and have gear from way back in the day.
In fact, Barovia's kind of a joke. It's not even scary when you're in it and I know I can conduct my business with 0% of being bothered by the setting. Werewolves? Dabbed on by my rapier. Skeletons? LOL JUST APPLY A VARNISH. Vallaki guard? Unu momento domn while I ream your low level RP build that can't even go level. AMPC? Well, I know they aren't going to corpse hide me and they're only so high level anyway. Besides, they usually die really fast if they aren't a vampire and vampires have their very distinct weaknesses.
This is veering heavily off topic, but being able to be level 20 seems a mistake and level 20 monks are more of a symptom of that. Maybe it gets really scary when you have a DM is ever present I wouldn't know.
also i realized the server might just not be for me so take it easy peeps
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A lack of Charisma or Influence isn't something that should be enforced or worried about by other players roleplaying, it's just for DM's to enforce. Cheesing refers to representing abilities that do not have a mechanical component -- I.E., playing a telepath, or playing racial abilities from a homebrew domain that do not exist for your base race.
Neither Charisma nor Influence has a mechanical component in day-to-day PoTM for player-to-player interactions, beyond mitigating OCR negatives, banking at the Vallaki Bank, and Charisma-based spellcasting. However they choose to represent their character from that point forward is wholly up to them, because it is a very... Subjective thing, how one should play a Charisma-heavy or Influence-heavy PC. In PnP those skills existed so that it you could just roll Persuade or the like instead of actually trying to contrive an argument for or against something, that would represent your skill. In PoTM, if Influence were to be used verbatim as it was in PnP as a mechanical option, then everyone would be subject to Influence rolls, and require a DM to arbitrate the result of the role. That just isn't the case, here.
I suppose I'm heavily focusing on the mechanical strength because that really seems to be the only deciding factor. From what I understand, there's only a handful of active DMs and they already focus most of their energy into their group so if you put points into social skills or non-optimal skills like spot as opposed to listen, you're not really penalized that hard for playing a single-minded killing machine. Maybe it speaks to me as a player, but I was never really good enough to get a DM that RP'd with my crew in the mist camp and we mainly did dungeon runs.
I don't think the DM's spend much time if at all doing stuff for the people chilling around Mist Camp, because Mist Camp is basically a dungeoneering hub. They generally want you to either roll off to Barovia (14 and under) or Dementlieu (10-20) and get involved there, because those are actual settings in Ravenloft that they can run events out of -- Whereas the Mist Camp is actually a homebrew thing used to link the domains together for travel and ease of coordination between players to play the game. They've been known to do minor events in Blaustein, Ghastria, Hazlan, and even Har'Akir as well. But those places do not have banks or professions people can pick up, they're mostly pocket domains for dungeons at the moment.
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I don't think the DM's spend much time if at all doing stuff for the people chilling around Mist Camp, because Mist Camp is basically a dungeoneering hub. They generally want you to either roll off to Barovia (14 and under) or Dementlieu (10-20) and get involved there, because those are actual settings in Ravenloft that they can run events out of -- Whereas the Mist Camp is actually a homebrew thing used to link the domains together for travel and ease of coordination between players to play the game. They've been known to do minor events in Blaustein, Ghastria, Hazlan, and even Har'Akir as well. But those places do not have banks or professions people can pick up, they're mostly pocket domains for dungeons at the moment.
Mist Camp is not a place for any meaningful DM interaction, to be honest - it's like expecting to have a DM make a scene for you in the caravan. Extended stay there is basically pointless, if you're looking to get involved.
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I don't think the DM's spend much time if at all doing stuff for the people chilling around Mist Camp, because Mist Camp is basically a dungeoneering hub. They generally want you to either roll off to Barovia (14 and under) or Dementlieu (10-20) and get involved there, because those are actual settings in Ravenloft that they can run events out of -- Whereas the Mist Camp is actually a homebrew thing used to link the domains together for travel and ease of coordination between players to play the game. They've been known to do minor events in Blaustein, Ghastria, Hazlan, and even Har'Akir as well. But those places do not have banks or professions people can pick up, they're mostly pocket domains for dungeons at the moment.
Mist Camp is not a place for any meaningful DM interaction, to be honest - it's like expecting to have a DM make a scene for you in the caravan. Extended stay there is basically pointless, if you're looking to get involved.
I have had meaningful DM interaction at the MC and at a caravan, so this is not entirely accurate.
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I don't think the DM's spend much time if at all doing stuff for the people chilling around Mist Camp, because Mist Camp is basically a dungeoneering hub. They generally want you to either roll off to Barovia (14 and under) or Dementlieu (10-20) and get involved there, because those are actual settings in Ravenloft that they can run events out of -- Whereas the Mist Camp is actually a homebrew thing used to link the domains together for travel and ease of coordination between players to play the game. They've been known to do minor events in Blaustein, Ghastria, Hazlan, and even Har'Akir as well. But those places do not have banks or professions people can pick up, they're mostly pocket domains for dungeons at the moment.
Mist Camp is not a place for any meaningful DM interaction, to be honest - it's like expecting to have a DM make a scene for you in the caravan. Extended stay there is basically pointless, if you're looking to get involved.
I have had meaningful DM interaction at the MC and at a caravan, so this is not entirely accurate.
That's the exception, not the rule. The Mist Camps have had DM interactions, it isn't some kind of null-zone, but it is extremely few and far between. There is no Dark Lord, nor setting, of the Mist Camps. It's just this pocket area that exists against canon to allow us to move between domains.
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We’ve gone far off topic and the original poster has been quite thoroughly answered, so I’m going to close the thread.