Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Bug Reports => Fixed Bugs => Topic started by: DM Indolence on July 30, 2019, 08:36:19 AM
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Name: Evard's Black Tentacles Damage
Where: Inside EBT
When: When a high level wiz/sorc is upset at you.
What: Maximized Evard's Black Tentacles is resulting in 224 instant flat damage against a PC with Bludgeon Resist 5 and +5 Soak 3. Spell description says only half of the tentacles should be able to hit, so expected result would be 120 damage from a level 20 PC. This is assuming the DR fix implemented in the last patch was lumping damage together to bypass DR and is working as intended.
Recreate: Maximized Evard's Black Tentacles.
Ideas: I'm not sure this massive amount of unmitigated damage is the the most desirable effect.
(http://i.imgur.com/mVxPcV9.jpg?1) (https://imgur.com/mVxPcV9)
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The base spell (in vanilla at least) should only allow a tentacle to do a max of 10 damage. 15 if empowered.
I'm seeing rolls there where you took SEVENTY DAMAGE from a single roll. This is an insane boost to the spell if this change was intentional.
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This spell was very powerful already. It's only 4th level, has no (real) save, and ignores spell resistance.
Was there some reason it needed to be buffed?
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Some comparisons for 6th level spells:
Disintegrate: A 20th level caster will do on average 140 points of damage, provided successful ranged touch attack, failed save, and failed SR to a single creature.
Bigby's Forceful Hand: Knocks down a target for an average of 7 rounds, provided the target fails the save and spell resistance doesn't stop it.
Lucent Lance: For 20th level caster does 53 points of damage (in direct sunlight) to a single target, if SR breached. Blinds for one round.
Empowered Evard's Tentacles: Ignores SR and saving throws, has a large area of effect, and will last 10 rounds. If the target doesn't save, she is also held immobile. Appears from above to do 224 points of damage.
Why would any wizard/sorc use those other spells rather than empowering Evard's?
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I'd argue for giving Evard's an enhancement bonus a la Shelgarn's Persistent Blade--where it can penetrate DR of half the caster's spellcasting mod--but otherwise leave it the same as it's always been. This doesn't seem like it's working as intended in any case, but it's still incredibly menacing. Especially given you only got one fortitude save, which means technically the game saw one tentacle as hitting you.
It's also just stacking the damage for each subsequent tentacle on the first one. It looks like you only got hit by 7, it's just the first hit was one tentacle, the second was two, etc, when you should have only been on the receiving end of the last hit--or a later one entirely, if Tia is higher than 14th level and your HP just didn't hold out.
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Yeah, seems it's stacking the damage. Hopefully that's not the desired outcome, because if so this is a very strong spell for simply level 4..
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The spell was working allways like that. It is why it was called the black tentacle of doom.
If i recall well even in the NWN wiki it is stated that the damage it deals is per tentacle. So if you get hit by multiple tentacles well too bad.
The only thing with the multiple tentacle hits that is strange though is that any kind of DR only applies to the whole damage the tentacles make and not individually for every tentacle.
Also afaik elves are immune to the immobile effect.
The above mentioned are why it is one of the most favourite ganking spells. Combined with other movement restricting spells.
It usually kills mid level characters in 2-3 levels. And high levels in 4-5.
I still remember when Morticia and other vampires used this spell.:D Is why everyone used to cast FOM and Greater Stoneskin before heading out:) (well if they could!)
And sometimes AMPC-s and MPC-s actually misplaced it to the ML temple doors so everyone coming out likely just died.
(It was not likely intentional since if i know correctly it is rule violation to abuse transitions like this.)
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The spell was working allways like that. It is why it was called the black tentacle of doom.
If i recall well even in the NWN wiki it is stated that the damage it deals is per tentacle. So if you get hit by multiple tentacles well too bad.
The only thing with the multiple tentacle hits that is strange though is that any kind of DR only applies to the whole damage the tentacles make and not individually for every tentacle.
Also afaik elves are immune to the immobile effect.
The above mentioned are why it is one of the most favourite ganking spells. Combined with other movement restricting spells.
It usually kills mid level characters in 2-3 levels. And high levels in 4-5.
I still remember when Morticia and other vampires used this spell.:D Is why everyone used to cast FOM and Greater Stoneskin before heading out:) (well if they could!)
And sometimes AMPC-s and MPC-s actually misplaced it to the ML temple doors so everyone coming out likely just died.
(It was not likely intentional since if i know correctly it is rule violation to abuse transitions like this.)
This doesn't change the fact that it was able to kill a high level paladin in a seemingly rapid timeframe. It's only a level four spell, perhaps if it's always been this way it's time to change it? It does indeed seem the damage was stacking, and I truly hope that was unintended. This comes from a wizard player -- another ganking spell is.. odd.
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The same character has been on the receiving end of Evard's before. Normally I have an appropriate amount of time to RP a brief flash of horror. This was an instant 240 damage. This is not how the spell has always worked.
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The spell was working allways like that. It is why it was called the black tentacle of doom.
If i recall well even in the NWN wiki it is stated that the damage it deals is per tentacle. So if you get hit by multiple tentacles well too bad.
The only thing with the multiple tentacle hits that is strange though is that any kind of DR only applies to the whole damage the tentacles make and not individually for every tentacle.
Also afaik elves are immune to the immobile effect.
The above mentioned are why it is one of the most favourite ganking spells. Combined with other movement restricting spells.
It usually kills mid level characters in 2-3 levels. And high levels in 4-5.
I still remember when Morticia and other vampires used this spell.:D Is why everyone used to cast FOM and Greater Stoneskin before heading out:) (well if they could!)
And sometimes AMPC-s and MPC-s actually misplaced it to the ML temple doors so everyone coming out likely just died.
(It was not likely intentional since if i know correctly it is rule violation to abuse transitions like this.)
This doesn't change the fact that it was able to kill a high level paladin in a seemingly rapid timeframe. It's only a level four spell, perhaps if it's always been this way it's time to change it? It does indeed seem the damage was stacking, and I truly hope that was unintended. This comes from a wizard player -- another ganking spell is.. odd.
Numerous of my characters have died to this spell.
One in the past few months was actually ganked by this. (Allthough other spells were used but in 3 turns it would have ended his life quite likely, and even then only in 3 turns because 2 other persons were present so less tentacles hit him.)
The spell does this insane amount of damage when it is maximised/extended or empowered.
As in that means it is treated at least a level 5-6 spell.
Also it can kill you as a high level with 200 or so hp in around 3 turnsm but that would require at least 7 tentacles hitting you constantly per turns.
Whereas you should be able to MOVE out of its range, especially paladins since they have high enough saves to not get immobilized. Anyone else chugs down a fom potion when they notice this spell being cast and runs.
In the past even the good old vampire sorceresses in TERG used to spam this spell. (Not sure if they still do)
And they decimated qutie a number of parties with it.
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The spell was working allways like that. It is why it was called the black tentacle of doom.
If i recall well even in the NWN wiki it is stated that the damage it deals is per tentacle. So if you get hit by multiple tentacles well too bad.
The only thing with the multiple tentacle hits that is strange though is that any kind of DR only applies to the whole damage the tentacles make and not individually for every tentacle.
Also afaik elves are immune to the immobile effect.
The above mentioned are why it is one of the most favourite ganking spells. Combined with other movement restricting spells.
It usually kills mid level characters in 2-3 levels. And high levels in 4-5.
I still remember when Morticia and other vampires used this spell.:D Is why everyone used to cast FOM and Greater Stoneskin before heading out:) (well if they could!)
And sometimes AMPC-s and MPC-s actually misplaced it to the ML temple doors so everyone coming out likely just died.
(It was not likely intentional since if i know correctly it is rule violation to abuse transitions like this.)
This doesn't change the fact that it was able to kill a high level paladin in a seemingly rapid timeframe. It's only a level four spell, perhaps if it's always been this way it's time to change it? It does indeed seem the damage was stacking, and I truly hope that was unintended. This comes from a wizard player -- another ganking spell is.. odd.
Numerous of my characters have died to this spell.
One in the past few months was actually ganked by this. (Allthough other spells were used but in 3 turns it would have ended his life quite likely, and even then only in 3 turns because 2 other persons were present so less tentacles hit him.)
The spell does this insane amount of damage when it is maximised/extended or empowered.
As in that means it is treated at least a level 5-6 spell.
Also it can kill you as a high level with 200 or so hp in around 3 turnsm but that would require at least 7 tentacles hitting you constantly per turns.
Whereas you should be able to MOVE out of its range, especially paladins since they have high enough saves to not get immobilized. Anyone else chugs down a fom potion when they notice this spell being cast and runs.
In the past even the good old vampire sorceresses in TERG used to spam this spell. (Not sure if they still do)
And they decimated qutie a number of parties with it.
Empowered it would be treated as a level 6 spell. Sure, this is getting up there, it should be able to do some damage if empowered. However it is not fair to say that it should be able to kill someone within a few turns if they have upwards of 200 hp. I understand you can chug a FOM potion, but that doesn't change the fact it's doing 200 or so damage over a few rounds. That's insane, even if it's level 6 (some level 9 spells don't do that much)
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The spell was working allways like that. It is why it was called the black tentacle of doom.
Yeah, this is 100% false.
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It is my understanding that this was one round, and a PC with 200+ HP. A few rounds, I can get, that gives some time to react. This was not that, from what I see and read here.
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Well just do a search regarding about this spell and you will see it has been debated and mentioned quite often.
https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=19073.25 (is one longer discussion)
And yes i remember well the vampires sorcies used to be evards happy:)
I think what could be done to nerf the spell is to have the tentacles individually attack you so the DR applies to each tentacle individually. But beside that dunno. Never played an arcanist, though the ones that use this spell all say how easy it makes things.(though it's usage MAY have other repercussions since it is a necromantic murder spell)
I have allways been on the receiving end regarding this spell. And yes whereas i understood how powerful it was, that is why i always took counteractions that were possible to deal with it or the one casting it.
(Besides when you get surprise ganked, but then you cant do anything)
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The problem is not the spell being able to kill high levels in a couple of rounds, the damage in that screen shot all came instantly as soon as the spell was cast. It was 240 dmg in 0.1 seconds, and instant death.
What the spell is supposed to do and was doing before, is 1d6+4 dmg / tentacle that touches you, not scaling up with each tentacle. The dmg is supposed to be max 120, spread out of over 12 ticks of 10 in this instance for maximized (usually less as 12 tentacles hitting you at once is rare.) Reduced by his 8 reduction, it should have done 20 something total damage, not 224 before he had a chance to react at all.
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I think what could be done to nerf the spell is to have the tentacles individually attack you so the DR applies to each tentacle individually.
That's literally what it did before. Each tentacle hit you individually. From the wiki when referencing the empowered version:
"However, the maximum damage per tentacle is only 15, allowing an effect such as ethereal visage to negate all damage from Evard's black tentacles."
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I think what could be done to nerf the spell is to have the tentacles individually attack you so the DR applies to each tentacle individually.
That's literally what it did before. Each tentacle hit you individually. From the wiki when referencing the empowered version:
"However, the maximum damage per tentacle is only 15, allowing an effect such as ethereal visage to negate all damage from Evard's black tentacles."
Ah right, my bad i misunderstood the issue then.
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In addition to the 6th levels spells I listed above that it outclasses, an empowered Evard's overwhelms maximized lightning bolts and fireballs, which would be cast using 6th level slots.
They both allow saving throws and spell resistance and do only 60 hp damage when maximized by a 20th level.
Empowered ice storm: Allows spells resistance, does on average 57 hp when empowered to 6th level.
The spell is clearly not balanced relative to other spells of comparable level.
I think what could be done to nerf the spell is to have the tentacles individually attack you so the DR applies to each tentacle individually.
That's literally what it did before. Each tentacle hit you individually. From the wiki when referencing the empowered version:
"However, the maximum damage per tentacle is only 15, allowing an effect such as ethereal visage to negate all damage from Evard's black tentacles."
Each tentacle is an individual attack, so that's how it should work.
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I wonder -- was it the update to modify Evard's the cause of it, or was it doing this before? Could this have been done in a previous patch accidentally, but no one realised?
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I wonder -- was it the update to modify Evard's the cause of it, or was it doing this before? Could this have been done in a previous patch accidentally, but no one realised?
I eat Evards like a fat kid eats oreos. I can attest it did not work this way before the patch.
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Are small creatures still immune to it? Because if so, that's hilarious.
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Found the issue and will fix it next update. In the meantime, play nice and don't exploit the bug.
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Found the issue and will fix it next update. In the meantime, play nice and don't exploit the bug.
Does that mean that using Evard's in any context is considered an exploit? Or just Empowered? Or, just in a PvP scenario?
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This should now be fixed, if we don't have to rollback.
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Can anyone confirm the damage output is back to normal?
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I didn't instantly die to a vampire matriarch recently so the NPC seemed fine, (had 20/+3 DR up), no idea about player cast side though.
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Can confirm, works as intended now.