Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Public (OOC) => Setting and Lore Discussion => Topic started by: Nefensis on January 03, 2007, 09:29:40 PM
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Barovian women knows their places and men dirige society and bring back the food at home while the women takes care of the children. Now what is the status of noble women? Freedom and a voice during a conversation? What about the guards, can barovian women or even outlander women becomes guards? Would captain Dagris the cruel even hire them?
comment.
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Well Siv was a guard.
Way i always viewed the setting is very male dominated, AKA women being seen as second. Granted its hard for many to RP this as most outlander women want equal rights and all that hehe
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The framework of the city and the module doesn't really allow for such an attitude to have dominance. Outlanders arrive, and before anyone takes notice they have some of the most powerful positions in the city. It's hard to be mysgonistic when the woman you are dealing with could have you roasted over an open fire.
I'd imagine the Guard would have more women if there were more women with the right attitude to carry out the role. It's rare to see a human female character with ugly mental or physical traits.
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Marinah..? :lol:
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There's some woman in the guard now, they are doing a superb job. However, I would expect DM's to showcase -extreme- sexism with the male NPC guards, something I've yet to see.
This is a highly regressive society in Barovia, a female guard would get as much flak as the first woman ever becoming doctor, or the first one attending University. I expect them to be pushed down and humiliated on the job, snide comments to be made, etc.
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Yeah. Sexism and racism is highly important, I feel, in building a setting. Although the racism is covered by general hatred towards outlanders. I guess racism in a fantasy setting is less provident due to the greater threat of specism, where Dwarves and Halflings, Elves and Orcs, pose greater threats to Mankind than does one specter of Mankind unto the other.
Eh. I dunno, I just agree with Eraldur. More sexism. It reflects the society. After all, the counts and lords and whatnot are mainly men. The mayors and the shopmen should be mainly men.
(Well. Okay. There's a female blacksmith with a female blacksmith tutor...) But it'd add to the mood and the helpless feeling of unwaranted hatred.
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Barovia isn't a particularly sexist society. Poor Barovians don't have traditional nuclear family situations where the man goes out and works and the woman stays at home with the children. Every member of the family works, including any child who's capable of doing so. You have to remember that even in the real world, nuclear familiies only really came along after the industrial revolution. Before that, businesses were cottage industries and whole families would labour together at their particular trade. For the poor, life is hard work period. Men don't dominate women -- consider them equally oppressed and overworked ;).
As for nobility, keep in mind that there are no schools in Barovia, meaning that unless the children are sent abroad to study, they are educated a little at home and then likely married or brought into the family business, if there is one. Also, keep in mind that nobles don't have much in Barovia's current state. Almost all have lost their land to Strahd. Outside of towns, the best they can hope for is to be able to manage their former ancestral lands. However, these days few boyars, or landholders, are drawn from the old noble familiies. Inside towns, they cling to what is left of their family fortunes, perhaps trying to augment that with mercantile businesses and the like. They are a decaying group, clinging to the former power of their ancestors. Basically, nobles will be more concerned with holding on to what they have and augmenting it, than they would rigidly enforcing sexual roles among their children.
Women have held positions of power in Barovia. One of the major cities in Barovia, Teufeldorf, is run by a woman. Rebeka Ditrau, Captain of the Guard, rules in the place of a burgomaster. So she not only attained a high rank in a military organization, she has also been given command of a town. The Burgomaster of the Villlage of Barovia, Vanda Atanasius, is female. Females can hold prominent positions in the clergy. The Cult of the Morninglord has a highly respected priestess in Krezk named Elizabeta Pirosska. Females hold prominent positions in some of the secret societies in Barovia as well.
Basically, I guess I'm saying don't let a late 19th/early 20th century view of female roles cloud the possibilities for female characters in this setting. While there may be sexist individuals, there is no overriding rigid code in place for female peasants and nobles, aside from the same rigid limitations that affect the males as well. ;)
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I stand corrected.
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It may be regressive in many aspects, but that doesn't necissarily mean it also holds to a view that women are inferior, unless it is actually documented as to being so. Many early societies were matrilineal in their workings, including Europe, India, China, Egypt, ect... Women may have been barred from certain positions that were just considered impracticle for them to take up, but that doesn't mean there was a society wide idea of inferioty on their part. In many cases they simply took up other trades and held power in different ways. You don't want to insult someone with more power and money no matter what the situation is.
Of course, if you are a 5'0 100 pound woman of the middle class who has signed up to be a guard, you are probably going to get a lot of crap, just as a 5'0 100 man would.
I just find it a little too stereotypical to take up the attitude, really. Early society does not equal systematic mysogyny.
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I stand corrected.
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Thanks for posting that Arlette. I wasn't too clear on the role and dynamics between men and women myself. Reading it did remind me of a woman Burgomaster who Strahd found waiting outside of the Castle in Elrod's novel.
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And then again, a woman with 16+ in str will not be small anyway, this goes for men to... 16 str and 16 con makes for a very large person, or at least very very muscular.. So no petite warrior females....! :lol:
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Even a small, fairly physically unimposing person can attain a high military rank. Brute force is all well and good, but so is strategy, counterintelligence, and political savvy. Napolean was a physically small man but talented in other areas. The strongest person most adept at wielding a weapon is good as a foot soldier, but if they don't have the brains to go with the brawn, they're not much use at the higher ranks.
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Napoleon was also sick frequently but his Cha must have been out the roof
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Hey for once we didnt refer to hitler, anyways i also remember that the Burgomeister of the village is a woman, met her once
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Don't forget about Strahd's cousin and right-hand enforcer, Talena von Zarovich. :twisted:
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Not to mention his other relative..Lyssa ;)
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Not to mention his other relative..Lyssa ;)
She's not much in charge of anything though :lol:
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Talena.. [shudders] freaking Kukri out right off, good thing i was gonna propose to make her a dress ^.^
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It wasn't until Christainity took hold that the idea of women being infeior to men took hold as well. With only a God and no Goddess, men were seen as the only ones who were pure. Women were evil by nature, thus a man had to lead her to do good.. often with a heavy hand. Once the Church took the reigns, anything that gave a woman power was quickly stamped out.
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It wasn't until Christainity took hold that the idea of women being infeior to men took hold as well. With only a God and no Goddess, men were seen as the only ones who were pure. Women were evil by nature, thus a man had to lead her to do good.. often with a heavy hand. Once the Church took the reigns, anything that gave a woman power was quickly stamped out.
:roll:
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actually much of that predates christianity, but as it's already been established, much of the chauvinist beliefs came about during the Victorian era (late 1800s)
and please don't use these forums as a means to bash a real-world religion. this is not the place for that...take it somewhere else, please
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please don't use these forums as a means to bash a real-world religion. this is not the place for that...take it somewhere else, please
I'm sorry if it sounded that way. That wasn't my intention. I was in lecture mode.
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Eyms Mo'vs exploits the oppression of women. She is educated in a monastery from a society that typically is not very appreciative of women outside of the domestic roles. Her training in a monastery was her escape from all that, although the reason for heading into a monastery was because her family could not afford to keep her. She has claimed that a guard could not be harmed by her fatally because she is only a mothering woman. However, to cover this up, she needs to bathe in the water everyday to clean the blood from her bare feet and hands. Also, keep her weapon clean, which serves more than a domestic role, but seems ornamental to someone not acquainted with exotic blades. If the guards searched her pack, and they found knuckles, beetle shells, mandibles and vistani brews, she might be in for a branding with a hot metal poker (something out of the museum of torture). As the rights are unequal, or equal (depending on whom you ask on the forum), the plea that she is not a fatal, unlike the poor boxer that was charged as a murderer for beating someone with his fists in self-defense, and sentenced as a murderer, fists are not a fatal weapon in most brawls. If the undead fall so easily to her fists, is it because she is a fist-fighter, or because she is holy, like Joan of Arc with holy fists and a halo wrapping round her noggin.
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I bumped this after reading a character bio of a Barovian woman. :)
Arlette wrote earlier in this thread:
"Barovia isn't a particularly sexist society. Poor Barovians don't have traditional nuclear family situations where the man goes out and works and the woman stays at home with the children. Every member of the family works, including any child who's capable of doing so. You have to remember that even in the real world, nuclear familiies only really came along after the industrial revolution. Before that, businesses were cottage industries and whole families would labour together at their particular trade. For the poor, life is hard work period. Men don't dominate women -- consider them equally oppressed and overworked .
As for nobility, keep in mind that there are no schools in Barovia, meaning that unless the children are sent abroad to study, they are educated a little at home and then likely married or brought into the family business, if there is one. Also, keep in mind that nobles don't have much in Barovia's current state. Almost all have lost their land to Strahd. Outside of towns, the best they can hope for is to be able to manage their former ancestral lands. However, these days few boyars, or landholders, are drawn from the old noble familiies. Inside towns, they cling to what is left of their family fortunes, perhaps trying to augment that with mercantile businesses and the like. They are a decaying group, clinging to the former power of their ancestors. Basically, nobles will be more concerned with holding on to what they have and augmenting it, than they would rigidly enforcing sexual roles among their children.
Women have held positions of power in Barovia. One of the major cities in Barovia, Teufeldorf, is run by a woman. Rebeka Ditrau, Captain of the Guard, rules in the place of a burgomaster. So she not only attained a high rank in a military organization, she has also been given command of a town. The Burgomaster of the Villlage of Barovia, Vanda Atanasius, is female. Females can hold prominent positions in the clergy. The Cult of the Morninglord has a highly respected priestess in Krezk named Elizabeta Pirosska. Females hold prominent positions in some of the secret societies in Barovia as well.
Basically, I guess I'm saying don't let a late 19th/early 20th century view of female roles cloud the possibilities for female characters in this setting. While there may be sexist individuals, there is no overriding rigid code in place for female peasants and nobles, aside from the same rigid limitations that affect the males as well."
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There's nothing inherent, but there's no reason things can't change ;) Women are oppressed because they as a group have been targeted and successfully stigmatized in many cultures. No one has made Barovia's problems the fault of women, but considering its state, I don't think it would be unlikely for the burden to shift. If not on women, then on Gundaraks, or some other faction. Outsiders from another culture pouring in could certainly contribute to this.
ah, the possibilities 8)
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women aren't any more oppressed than men in Barovian society
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Yet...
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Yet...
or ever. I see no reason to radically alter the culture from what's presented in the books :roll:
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Yet...
or ever. I see no reason to radically alter the culture from what's presented in the books :roll:
Aye, neither do I.. But who knows what they will cook up for Fourth Edition, if there is one :lol:
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Fourth Edition will not appear until a newborn babe is sacrificed on Mount Arrerayt and the name of Asmodeus is invoked six times.
Translation- never.
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I've read a lot of native material in research of my native, and haven't seen any ~oppression~ per se, but women do seem to have standard roles, at least in the lower classes.
The rural life is hard in Barovia, especially the further from civilization you get. Every hand is necessary. Often women and able children tend the farmsteads during most of the year while their men trap furs and hunt itinerantly around the area. I haven't seen any legal disavantages mentioned about owning property or rights though.
There are a few mentions of things such as them not remarrying after being widowed for example. Wearing black in mourning for five years even after a distant relation passes on and so forth.
I do not think it's out of line however, if male characters scoff or cajole a woman taking up a blade and 'playing at soldier' at all though, that's a typical, sexist convention held even in most non-chaeuvenist societies of any era and creates interesting roleplay.
But then again, I play a character of the idiom of Calamity Jane and such and take a measure of amusement when a man approaches her to 'protect' her from something, or attempts to belittle her.
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I wrote a diatribe about a conflict with a guard, Kauspar Brauch, which had occupied my character Eyms Mo'vs. The point with her cleansing to seem not capable of vice is because she does admire conventions. It is not her place to challenge things that are working, and she feels that Valliki should be that type of society, yet certain events have shown her that even the established order is not working right, and for that reason, she needs to seem clean or without blood on her hands, to establish something right. Her adopted code of the samurai, the bushido, is her way of making sense of philosophy, and the only one who suffers are those that do not abide by their own convictions. A casual remark about women not being warriors does not worry her, as she sees most men who say those things as incapable. Her possibility of starting a life in Valliki is marred by her experiences, and she had a life as a monk in a monastery studying, so the persuit of knowledge is her idea of a worthwhile pursuit. As the daughter of a poor farmer in the Dales, she feels some conviction for the oppressed and poor, yet is unable to establish her life as so without becoming a peasant and living poverty.
I guess she is not a model from the 1960s feminist era, yet a Saint from a different era, I see medieval france. Roumania in the era Ravenloft belongs to is vastly different, and the lives of the peasants require that she live a life apart, even if it be of eternal loneliness. As the wise poet Woody Guthrie said, "A lot of people make a point to live a life of loneliness and think it a good thing. . . it is not. . ."
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Well my own personal views differ from character to character (okay from Negnar to Vasham)
Negnar see's any Non-Dwarven women as less than his equal, its why he treats any of them that show abit of flesh as whores and mocks any in armour since in his mind "Lasses cannie be warriors". But of course its Neg's view not my own ;). And it can lead to some fun RP as certain women have better standing in Neg's eyes than others but even then he still see's them as the "lesser" sex. But in regards to the setting yeah I'd agree that there is no overall feeling of discrimination, but individuals will of course have their own views
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Go harass Meb Neggy :lol:
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Barovian women knows their places and men dirige society and bring back the food at home while the women takes care of the children. Now what is the status of noble women? Freedom and a voice during a conversation?
comment.
Yes what of the status of noble woman? I myself like the status presented in the film Dangerouse Liaisons when roleplaying in a module within neverwinter nights, allthough I have never read any of the books PoTM is base on, so would it differ?
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Barovian women knows their places and men dirige society and bring back the food at home while the women takes care of the children. Now what is the status of noble women? Freedom and a voice during a conversation?
comment.
Yes what of the status of noble woman? I myself like the status presented in the film Dangerouse Liaisons when roleplaying in a module within neverwinter nights, allthough I have never read any of the books PoTM is base on, so would it differ?
People pretty much answered and commented on the subject in the pages this topic went on about, just read a little.
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The noble class in Barovia might not be what it appears to be on the surface either. They may go to great pains to put on a good front, but many of the families in the noble class have seen better days.
At least that is the impression I've developed.
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The Noble families are inteirly poseurs by this point. All the real power is in the Hands of Strahd, or whomever strahd gives it to. The Lucky ones are the Boyars and Burgomasters, who get to run their town/plots of land so long as they meet Strahds expectations. In some ways, the laws and standards of one Boyar settlement can be completly different from another. Strahd usually doesn't care so long as his three laws are obeyed and taxes are dutifully collected and stored.
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The concept of a 'Nobility', doesn't really exist in Barovia. Strahd got rid of it. But there are still noble families. One of the 3rd edition books is all about the famous 'evil' noble families, but also contains general information on upper classes in various domains. It's interspersed throughout the book unfortunately. Just because the nobility doesn't really have any particular god given status or title any more doesn't mean they're not upper class and comparatively loaded with money. And that's a form of power in itself.
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Way women are treated here amuses and confuses Meb, course she can't understand why any women would allow a man to command her, yet any women who allows it is clearly weak and deserves the humiliation of it. Negs problem is no dwarf women around for him to hit on. :lol:
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Yeah so don't ask what he does to the women that walk alone at night :S
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The barovian "nobility" arent that wealthy anymore.. Probably due to few sources of income.. They are still way above the common man, but Julia is probably still wealthier than all the boyars combined :lol:
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The barovian "nobility" arent that wealthy anymore.. Probably due to few sources of income.. They are still way above the common man, but Julia is probably still wealthier than all the boyars combined :lol:
Yes, well, this is NWN and as such it's not a realistic economy really.
I mean, a bowl of chili is 19 fang. That's enough fang to keep your average peasant family fed for almost a month or so.
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Is that based on the price of meat, which could jump the price significantly. Peasants sell their livestock to pay taxes on the land, and warm the homes. If the chili bought in the inns is heavy in the meats and vegetables that are not grown in abundance, that price might not be so outrageous. Compared to what the average peasant is eating? Is it corn, potato or rice? Poultry or beef? The cost of meat for a peasant is based on the profit lost from slaughtering their livestock, but the price of meat for a non-agrarian is based on the selling price.
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... 19 gold pieces would buy a small herd of cattle.
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I get the feeling a shekl is a shekl here, or worthless and no offense to the staying power of the shekl, it's just an expression. Has anyone got the impression, they are being cheated? I've always tried to get as much free rest as I can, even preferring evil aligned characters that refuse to sleep in the Lady's Rest, much less a more expensive inn. Where women sleep is an issue, regardless seems from any conception of gender equalities. There is an awareness that some women have, that seems wiser than a man's where a woman will not take risks a man would, perhaps out of some maternal insight or plain acumen. A man, if homeless is on the streets and feels he can protect against predators, but a woman, due to the conservation of water, is likely to push forwards. In situations of clear an iminent danger, a man functions the same way, pushing against all odds to escape the threat, yet the protective animal instincts are likely to be prevalent in Ravenloft, if not in how the characters are concieved before they are even made, so I'd be curious if there were women who behaved differently, and the module seems to pay close enough attention to detail that notice would be paid if a woman was sleeping with the Vallaki, in the wilds or even with the morninglordians. The sinister edge is where the woman is tried for not even sleeping at a respectable place, like in the city walls or in the closely observable station where the man can see, not trusting the mysterious nature of woman, or simply caving to the wisdom of the hearth, which is the place for women in the common role. I love to end posts with a question, is that the common role, with the number of women adventurers and threat on the common farmer, is there not more pressing, urgent matters that are at the forefront of everyone's thoughts; if the wanderer is persecuted, would the women be not suspect if she wandered; if the gender roles were that she traditionally is at home, is there such a thing as trusting the pedicament?
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Man, you must specialize in necromancy, because this thread is -damn- old.
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Alright, I spent an hour reading that paragraph and wrote a book report about it, so I think i'm ready to answer your question.
No.
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*bursts out in laughter at Dooms post*
:bawling: :roflmao:
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Even a small, fairly physically unimposing person can attain a high military rank. Brute force is all well and good, but so is strategy, counterintelligence, and political savvy. Napolean was a physically small man but talented in other areas. The strongest person most adept at wielding a weapon is good as a foot soldier, but if they don't have the brains to go with the brawn, they're not much use at the higher ranks.
Napolean was actually normal size at the time, but everyone in the army was tall, making him look shorter than he actually was.
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Alright, I spent an hour reading that paragraph and wrote a book report about it, so I think i'm ready to answer your question.
No.
No, that is a pretty reflex answer. No, you are not offended with the shekls? No, where women sleep is not an issue with where men sleep? No, the predatory instinct, water conservation, protection of the hearth, are not influential on where women sleep in Ravenloft with gothic concerns, or fearful spirits chasing barovians away from peaceful rest? No, women are not treated differently for sleeping with morninglordians, than say, with housing in a farmers house? No, carving out a place in the hearth, women are not expected to be concerned with, contrary to the mysterious women in the outskirts housing in the woods, those that are not elven? Or finally, No, women outsiders are not gazed at less approvingly than men when adventure calls for her to wander, and if yes, is this because of the gender roles?
Yes, this is not resurrecting an old post, it is animating a dead post. The subject with women and characters perceptions of themselves as women has been discussed at length, and because this is an interesting thread, Id like to hear further from a new mist dweller or even someone that is old with a new woman, or man toon with a new perspective. Im my worst critic for writing this, because this is not my subject and Im almost verbatum what ive absorbed studying other subjects in my reasoning. I enjoy reading book reports. The one fact that keeps returning to my mind, perhaps because of the woman character I play, is class on how that relates to women, which is why I reminded readers about the previous posts on the cost of a bowl of chilly, or tried to with the shekl joke. Something Ive not quite come to terms with on the server, is playing a gender with conflicts in the setting, yet no having players confused with how to react. In my PC bio, she has shied away from corporal punishment, but with what women go with (I could care less, not having any children or stood with my non-existant wife while she has nursed children), the pains of childbirth and child rearing. Where was I headed with this? Oh yeah, my neighbors have children and annoys the C*** out of me listening to all the cursing, etc.., so this post is currently the most interesting for me to write on, as Ive written myself out of the threads in the post on foul language, knowing absolutely nothing about that. As far as woman go, and gender roles, lets just say, Im researching my best, the woman across the street with the discrepancy to leave the curtains open jk.
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Why would I be offended with the Shekl thing? I don't think I fully understand it. It's not some sort of comment about Israel is it? Otherwise we might have to lock the thread.
In any case, when I said no I meant that there is no special or additional xenophobia placed on strange women as there is strange men. In Barovia Gender Rolls are mostly blurred, because of their social history and because their life is simply so harsh they don';t have time for crap like that- women do the same jobs as men. In addition they do not have any strong religeous tradition, the atypical source of gender seperation (many cultures start out remarkibly egalitatarian and become sexist as they grow, often times this is influenced by religeon). A Stranger is a Stranger, and all strangers are treated with a degree of suspicion even Barovians from another village (to a far less degree then any outlander of course).
As for your other question, I believe it is considered mildly scandelous for a woman to sleep in the same room with a man, or a woman to live with a bunch of men if she is not married to one of them or their mother. It's strongely suggest this is the case in "Vampire of the Mists", in any case. Where a woman sleeps is important, but Barovians generally don't care about the BS. They just want their turnips.
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a shekl is fairly worthless, except in large quantities. it's a currency joke, that has as much to do with Israel as a rouble, or a mark joke has to do with Russia and Germany. I was thinking of the Canadian dollar being almost equivalent to the American now, as a likely similar jest. If the post had an addendum on the economy of Russia, Germany, Israel, Canada or the United States, then a fine combed rendering of the post raises some strange concerns. Economic humor is so foreign, few find it funny, but I doubt anyone is reading so far in-between the lines to take offense. "A shekl is a shekl," is sortof a class joke, like why millions buy lottery tickets so that there is one winner, when the ticket only costs a dollar and cents to lose. Right now I'm chuckling at the shekl joke, as the jest is aimed at the quality of money, worthless and not the conditions of the state, consumer or economy. because all money is symbolic in value, and not worth anything, except for the hands the fangs pass through. For each harmless joke there are millions of harmful ones which I've stayed well clear from, and wouldn't even dream of mentioning some out of place in a thread on gender.
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uh..okay
But isn't a joke about money out of place here? Anyway... if thats answered...
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the posts on the price of a bowl of chili, and if that was reasonable made its way into the thread, because the harshness day to day struggles entice are closely related to currency. I was surprised the subject came up, but the cost was somehow related to gender roles. I was comparing my woman to her worth, in fangs, which is kind of how I think of her. I'm sure the argument, who holds the fangs is the dominant gender, but gold fangs change hands so much, the significance of this is downplayed in peasant life, increasingly significant in players roles.
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In the end, the DnD universe does NOT make a difference between men and women, nor in Barovia, women are considered as important as men. There are no *traditional* roles of the women but what the player decide to do with his character.
Now wtf is a shekls and what does water conservation has to do with this plot, i have NO idea.
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DOes anyone else notice the link between a ruble and a rupie?(rupies were from Zelda, rubles from other places.)
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Got lost somewhere between a shekl and water conservation...
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Okay, enough this thread has derailed and i am locking it.
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While I sincerly hope that the respective questions about women in Barovian society
have been answered thus far by Doom and some others, I'd also like to point out that
this board is actualy called Ravenloft Discussion. It is not there to engage in political
debate or compare currencies and economics of the real world. If you must do so on
a forum dedicated to server-roleplay in a dark fantasy setting please try to do it in the
Tavern (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?board=10.0) Cor Reale.
Thank you very much.
Oh, and a Shekel is a coin first used in Mesopotamia and later on in other cultures ...