Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: becat on February 13, 2019, 07:26:02 PM
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This may seem to be a strange hill to start a battle upon but I have been thinking about it for some time and would like to see Cure Minor Wounds (CMW) changed to fit the 3.5 description. That is, to make the spell cure only 1 hit-point, rather than NWN's arbitrary 4 hit-points.
For reference, here are two links to the spell descriptions as exists in the 3.5 ruleset and in Neverwinter Nights:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureMinorWounds.htm
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Cure_minor_wounds
My reasoning is as follows:
- Firstly, Virtue, another cantrip, is rendered utterly useless by CMW. Virtue provides only 1 temporary hit-point in comparison to CMW's assured 4 healed. Even on a level 2 PC, there is no reason to value that 1THP next to a certain 4. I cannot think of a circumstance where 1THP is more valuable than healing 4 post-encounter. Bringing CMW in line with the 3.5 description would make a mixture of both spells a reliable tactic and prompting some actual thought in how cantrips are allocated on Druid and Cleric characters.
- Secondly, the lowest, most minor heal should be just that, minimum. This is a cantrip of the smallest possible skill. 4HP as the smallest unit seems an arbitrary and elevated number and does not reflect that the spell is able to heal only the very smallest amount. There exists, no doubt, some roleplay utility in bringing this number down to the very smallest possible.
- Thirdly, Cure Light Wounds (CLW) is able to actually heal less than CMW until the character reaches level 3, and is able to heal the same amount still at level 4. The internal logic here makes no sense; how does a spell of greater difficulty act weaker than a cantrip?
- Finally, to reiterate, the 3.5 description actually lists this spell as only healing 1 hit-point. If the rules of this server strive to emulate the 3.5 set, then I think this should not be forgotten.
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I read on the wiki that Clerics have one less spell slot per level, and I wonder if this balance change is related to that.
I would like to see other cantrips become more useful than CMW becoming fully unworthy of any cast, except to stabilise someone who's unconscious, which most do with potions anyway. Currently, I just have all slots on my level 10 Cleric as "Light" or "Resistance" but usually I don't have to use them, as glowing weapons/spells/equipment are a bit more common than one would expect starting at around level 5 or 6. This could be an indication of an economy issue.
What if CMW healed for 2, and Virtue gave 2 temporary hitpoints?
This would be a nerf to the Healing domain by making their cantrip heal 3 instead of 6 but probably not a huge deal. They might not feel worthy of hotbar slots at some point though. I already use cantrips very little, and considering a Cleric can start out with like 11 uses of Turn Undead and use the Sacred Healing feat (http://nwnravenloft.wikia.com/wiki/Sacred_Healing) at like, level 4 or 5 (not an expert on how skillpoints max out), this cantrip might become fully ignored.
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So you want to make a useless spell remain useless by making another spell equally as useless?
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This seems like a non-issue, but if a developer thinks it's a good idea to spend their time on something so minor (get it?) then I won't be raising my pitchfork.
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Clerics have the spell slot removed because that extra slot is a domain slot--but there's no way to limit it in NWN, so it has been removed.
Most cantrips are entirely useless or have some small utility. 4 HP vs 1 will rarely make any difference in combat and will relegate yet another spell to the useless pile. Virtue is bad, but I'd rather see it become something someone might actually cast, rather than everyone ignoring CMW for the remainder of the game.
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Thirdly, Cure Light Wounds (CLW) is able to actually heal less than CMW until the character reaches level 3, and is able to heal the same amount still at level 4. The internal logic here makes no sense; how does a spell of greater difficulty act weaker than a cantrip?
Not really true. The expected value on a CLW even at 1st level is 5.5 HP. It's true you could roll a 1 and get only 2 HP, but CLW will have a higher average.
As far as 4 versus 1, a justification I can see for having it 4 is that our PCs tend to have way more HP than standard PCs because of the max HP per level we receive.
I don't think this has a very significant impact on gameplay at all either way, so if the Devs want to make it conform to 3.5...*shrugs*. I typically use mine to top off my PC before resting, rather than eating, to make sure she's at full strength after the rest.
It would probably affect spellcasters with fewer healing spells available, though, than your typical cleric (e.g. Bards).
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Virtue is a great spell for lvl 1 & 2 when you're increasing your max HP instead of attempting to cast cure minor during combat, and you can memorise a full bar of virtue to sacrifice for cure minor and have the best of both.
It's a cantrip, what more do you expect from it?
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Virtue is a great spell for lvl 1 & 2 when you're increasing your max HP instead of attempting to cast cure minor during combat, and you can memorise a full bar of virtue to sacrifice for cure minor and have the best of both.
It's a cantrip, what more do you expect from it?
You're right, Virtue has its uses, but it's vastly overshadowed. A level 2 cleric would have 16 base HP, which could be entirely healed with their cantrips, doesn't that seem strange? 1HP CMW would still have use as a stabilizing spell and in polishing off those last few missing points of health.
To the question I must say that Cure Minor Wounds is also only a cantrip. Why should we accept and expect more from one spell over the other? Either Virtue should receive some boosting or CMW should receive some limitation, and since this server seems so heavily attracted to 3.5 rules (seeing the Blackguard skill discussion), I thought this would be a more acceptable solution.
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You're right, Virtue has its uses, but it's vastly overshadowed. A level 2 cleric would have 16 base HP, which could be entirely healed with their cantrips, doesn't that seem strange? 1HP CMW would still have use as a stabilizing spell and in polishing off those last few missing points of health.
To the question I must say that Cure Minor Wounds is also only a cantrip. Why should we accept and expect more from one spell over the other? Either Virtue should receive some boosting or CMW should receive some limitation, and since this server seems so heavily attracted to 3.5 rules (seeing the Blackguard skill discussion), I thought this would be a more acceptable solution.
We accept and expect that spells will never be exactly equal because that's just a fact of design. Ideally, each has its situational uses.
More to the point, I don't think the relative strength of Virtue is a good peg to hang your argument on. Bards don't receive Virtue, and consequently CMW is all they have. In contrast, Paladins have Virtue...at the same level as Cure Light Wounds. Using the same logic you've employed, then, CLW also needs to be nerfed.
That the spell doesn't conform to 3.5 rules is an arguable reason to change it, although not everything on POTM follows 3.5 rules to the letter. The Virtue comparison, however, is specious.
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We accept and expect that spells will never be exactly equal because that's just a fact of design. Ideally, each has its situational uses.
More to the point, I don't think the relative strength of Virtue is a good peg to hang your argument on. Bards don't receive Virtue, and consequently CMW is all they have. In contrast, Paladins have Virtue...at the same level as Cure Light Wounds. Using the same logic you've employed, then, CLW also needs to be nerfed.
That the spell doesn't conform to 3.5 rules is an arguable reason to change it, although not everything on POTM follows 3.5 rules to the letter. The Virtue comparison, however, is specious.
Yes, fair point that spells are unequal, even within the same spell level. When these two are so explicitly identical in power in the base ruleset and the situational power of one is rendered entirely underwhelming by the other, however, it stands to reason that this not be ignored.
It is one peg of an argument among three others. I only reply in its defense since that seems to be the attention of the replies.
I think the argument of strengthening Virtue is improved by your Paladin point, and I accept that. Why would any Paladin cast Virtue when having access to CLW? I would happily accept that as the direction of the thread instead.
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I've always been one to think reactive and risky spells should be more useful overall. But at the cantrip level, I don't think there's enough room to work with. Even if Virtue becomes a temporary 2HP, it's still going to be half as effective as CMW's healing, and that's fine, because someone else had to heal you, or you had to avoid attacks.
It won't change gameplay much, but it might bring it in line with the other cantrips.
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I have a hard time understanding why we are having a lengthy debate on gameplay balance in relation to a cantrip spell... Even at level 2, I've never found any of the cantrip spells to be particularly impactful or deserving a gameplay balance discussion. I think our time would be better suited focusing on weightier gameplay balance deliberations. But thats just my opinion, if there are really that many people who are passionate about CMW then have at it.
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I have a hard time understanding why we are having a lengthy debate on gameplay balance in relation to a cantrip spell... Even at level 2, I've never found any of the cantrip spells to be particularly impactful or deserving a gameplay balance discussion. I think our time would be better suited focusing on weightier gameplay balance deliberations. But thats just my opinion, if there are really that many people who are passionate about CMW then have at it.
I'm not passionate about it :)
Sometimes people seem to think I just like to argue--and maybe I do!--but really I feel that it's worse to say something and no one listen or have it ignored than to have someone disagree with or question you.
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I don't think it's irrelevant. On plenty of occasions it has made the difference in stabilizing downed characters when there aren't any other options.
That said, I disagree with anything which further impacts clerics for the worse. They got rare enough after the domain slot change.
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Since about a real life year has passed, it might be worth seeing if any opinions had changed on seeing this spell reduced in power?
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I haven't even thought about it in that time.
Making low levels weaker is not IMO a priority.
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Virtue is a great spell for lvl 1 & 2 when you're increasing your max HP instead of attempting to cast cure minor during combat, and you can memorise a full bar of virtue to sacrifice for cure minor and have the best of both.
It's a cantrip, what more do you expect from it?
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I think this is a pretty reasonable nerf.
All too often, we're engaged in an arms race mentality of buffing classes, when really we should be looking for what we can nerf.
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I still like it where it is.
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I think this is a pretty reasonable nerf.
All too often, we're engaged in an arms race mentality of buffing classes, when really we should be looking for what we can nerf.
It is too insignificant to be a worthwhile nerf of a class. It would harm only low levels, both low-level casters and their associates who being healed 4 hp in a round is actually meaningful to.
Because everyone receives max hp per level here, there is already an inherent nerf to the spell for high levels in that a four hp heal quickly becomes worthless during combat against anything other than, say, rats and beetles.
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Virtue could just be rebalanced to give 1 temporary hitpoint per class level, up to a maximum of 4 temporary hit points at level 4. It would not be amazing, but it would get some use here and there.
Since this conversation is about how virtue is supposed to be equivalent to CMW, that would end the debate as they would then be equivalent. One for healing, and one for buffing.
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I think this is a pretty reasonable nerf.
All too often, we're engaged in an arms race mentality of buffing classes, when really we should be looking for what we can nerf.
Agreed, the changes in the OP make sense and are canon so it would likely fit changes in order to make the server fit more like PnP to be more faithful to 3.5.
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Virtue could just be rebalanced to give 1 temporary hitpoint per class level, up to a maximum of 4 temporary hit points at level 4. It would not be amazing, but it would get some use here and there.
Since this conversation is about how virtue is supposed to be equivalent to CMW, that would end the debate as they would then be equivalent. One for healing, and one for buffing.
The conversation is more about maintaining parity with PnP. A nerf to CMW still maintains it as a strong tool for halting the bleedout process, and it will definitely see plenty of use for that.
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I disagree it would be a strong tool for halting bleedout and feel like this would introduce more inconvenience and waiting time than anything else.
As an example, it's either:
- Cast this eight times to get someone up from a downed state (which you may not have cantrip slots for),
- Or cast it at least once and wait for the conversation to stand up for the character.
I could foresee cure light wounds potions just be the go-to method and CMW ignored entirely.
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I use this to top people off when I cure them to barley injured. When you've got the healing domain, 6hp isn't useless. If I empty my orison slots out with this, I can give back 36ish hp. Not terrible when you're trying to conserve heals and keep everyone in top form. Is that OP for a 0 level in PnP? Yes. In NWN? No, its just the others are under-powered. But is it as powerful as being able to copy a book with one 0 level spell? Or make light in the absolute blackness of dungeons (which has killed me more than once) Or detect if something's poisoned? I'm not sure.
As Irdni said, you get max HP at level as well as less spell slots. But also NWN differs from table top in one HUGE way. There is vastly more combat. In PnP a single battle with a group of monsters might take 3 hours. In a night of gaming, you might see three or four encounters. You get hit far less often, go through far less HP. If we brought healing in line with PnP, we'd also have to nerf the healing domain to be pointless and useless, were spells are treated as 1 level higher (thus giving you 1 extra hp per spell). No one would ever... ever... take the healing domain again, and healing would not be a viable strategy in combat. We'd be straight back to only one possible option for combat... ward to the moon you super AC tanks, fight.. rest when the wards drop.
NWN is not like PnP, doesn't play like PnP we have to remember some changes are for the better. If anything, address virtue by having it give up to 4hp.
Very small potatoes. Healers at very low levels are nearly useless, and without cure minor... holy moly they would be like lips on a chicken.
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There are some pretty pen and paper disloyal things we do that are way more disruptive than cure minor wounds. It has some quality of life utility and very little more. It's not disruptive to game balance the way it is, hence why I say leave it.
We could just as easily say we need to make raise dead have a minute long casting time. That's pen and paper loyal and would have a similar degree of quality of life vs game balance impact.
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Cure Minor is not just a cleric cantrip; bards and druids have it too.
Another way POTM is not like PnP is most people get to around level 7 pretty quickly. In PnP, 1 hp on a 1st level bard with average of 3.5 HP can have almost as much impact proportionally as 4 hp on a 2nd level 12 hp starter bard here.
Nerfing it will hurt the very weakest PCs on the server. If I recall correctly, drobita are cure minor wounds, and I want to say the Gnome sells cure minor wounds too. Isn't chamomile or one of the other herbs cure minor? I'm not sure about those last two, but pretty positive about drobita.
The higher the level of the PC, particularly those with other healing options--as InMyDarkestHours says--changing it would be nothing but an inconvenience and annoyance. Low levels it hurts on a server in which everyone says those first few levels are by far the hardest.
What's gained? It makes Virtue less not valuable.
We're talking about this again, a year later? Has anything changed from a year ago that makes bringing it up again worthwhile? I can't imagine that it is having some kind of huge detrimental effect on the server.
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Buff all cantrips, I say. Why follow 3.5 to the letter? PotM should evolve to the medium it uses for its mechanics- not the source thereof, though it is a great place to start from.
I understand the complaint against c.minor wounds, but really its what makes that spell lovely. If its to be nerfed, why not a 1d6, or something like that? 1 hp is just, bad. Buff virtue, then. Make it stack. Form a cult, have them spam virtue on you and go storming through Castle Ravenloft. That'll teach em.
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I think the hak update brought fair Becat's mind to it. Several additions have been made recently which pull things closer to PnP, including the addition of Disguise, and the adjustment of relevant classes to have it as a skill/prerequisite.
Nerfs are good. They make the truly good things stand out more and feel special. And the low level experience being a bit harder can't hurt - it's the best time to introduce the atmosphere of the Demiplane, and that it is not a forgiving place.
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Is this the time to bring up knockdown, discipline, and how it doesn't exist in pen and paper but decides a lot of engagements? That's a far more glaring issue than cure minor wounds is. I don't know why we're fighting so much over a cantrip.
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Or how melee types should have access to concentration to resist taunt, yet don't, making taunt a lot more punishing for melee types as opposed to the mage types it is designed to be useful against. Discipline VS taunt makes much more sense for melee types, but mechanical contraints can't let you have two skills to oppose the one roll. Discipline is a really weird skill in nwn.
Only barbarians don't have concentration as class skill, which makes perfect sense due to their reckless nature. Ranger, paladin, fighter and monk got concentration as class skill.
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While on the topic of taunt and its intended targets - the purpose of taunt is to reduce a target's AC.
I would argue that a tough to hit fighter is a much more appropriate target for a taunt than a wizard who you could likely already hit consistently around level five.
On the other hand, I'm all for using taunt on wizards, as long as that wizard is me, and you aren't KD'ing me, and are allowing me time to possibly cast something and escape.
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I use this to top people off when I cure them to barley injured. When you've got the healing domain, 6hp isn't useless. If I empty my orison slots out with this, I can give back 36ish hp. Not terrible when you're trying to conserve heals and keep everyone in top form. Is that OP for a 0 level in PnP? Yes. In NWN? No, its just the others are under-powered. But is it as powerful as being able to copy a book with one 0 level spell? Or make light in the absolute blackness of dungeons (which has killed me more than once) Or detect if something's poisoned? I'm not sure.
As Irdni said, you get max HP at level as well as less spell slots. But also NWN differs from table top in one HUGE way. There is vastly more combat. In PnP a single battle with a group of monsters might take 3 hours. In a night of gaming, you might see three or four encounters. You get hit far less often, go through far less HP. If we brought healing in line with PnP, we'd also have to nerf the healing domain to be pointless and useless, were spells are treated as 1 level higher (thus giving you 1 extra hp per spell). No one would ever... ever... take the healing domain again, and healing would not be a viable strategy in combat. We'd be straight back to only one possible option for combat... ward to the moon you super AC tanks, fight.. rest when the wards drop.
NWN is not like PnP, doesn't play like PnP we have to remember some changes are for the better. If anything, address virtue by having it give up to 4hp.
Very small potatoes. Healers at very low levels are nearly useless, and without cure minor... holy moly they would be like lips on a chicken.
Yea this, I don't see a reason to change it.
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While on the topic of taunt and its intended targets - the purpose of taunt is to reduce a target's AC.
I would argue that a tough to hit fighter is a much more appropriate target for a taunt than a wizard who you could likely already hit consistently around level five.
On the other hand, I'm all for using taunt on wizards, as long as that wizard is me, and you aren't KD'ing me, and are allowing me time to possibly cast something and escape.
Taunt applies a 30% spell failure., so I can see why people might be trying it.
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I only play healers and I want this nerfed because it will lead to people turning to consumables more often & therefore complaints that herbalism is too tedious, so I'm just here to make sure that happens.
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Now I am imagining fried chicken lips being served at Popeyes....
A more serious answer is, the spell seemed bad during NCE on my bard. I opted to go buy honey from the beekeeper instead. I see no reason to nerf it, simply because it invalidates another spell.
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So you want to make a useless spell remain useless by making another spell equally as useless?
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Buff Virtue. I'm locking this thread as it's clogging up the suggestions forum. :!: