Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Hallvor Hadiya on February 07, 2019, 01:04:56 AM

Title: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Hallvor Hadiya on February 07, 2019, 01:04:56 AM
"Where would you like to go Giorgio?" "Anywhere but the Mistcamp", a rather simple suggestion with lore precedent, why go all the way to a camp when they could simply take you across the border to neighboring domains. Vistani have become a necessary evil when it comes to travel from one domain to the other, however, trade between domains exist without them and their caravans, while certainly risky crossing the mist without a guide but not impossible especially when you're traveling across the border. And for the average trader or person spending hours mist walking looking for the right transition to a domain is not an option.

What I'm suggesting isn't the creation of multiple transitions between domains, as a lot of those locations aren't presented in POTM and it would be too much to ask for such a little change. What I am suggesting is the option for Vistani caravans to take you to neighboring domains. This has been done multiple times with DM events usually paying extra to skip past the Mist Camp and go on to their desired location.

This would also allow more movement of characters, without the artificial player hub of the Mistcamp overreaching. It'll likely be still used for groups looking for dungeon or wanting to sell their loot quickly. I can only think this will create a more natural movement of PC between locations.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 07, 2019, 01:28:33 AM
+1
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Moshimo on February 07, 2019, 01:32:13 AM
+1
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Elyan on February 07, 2019, 01:37:59 AM
+1
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Gods_Kill_People on February 07, 2019, 01:47:38 AM
+1
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: FinalHeaven on February 07, 2019, 02:10:07 AM
+1
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: urathraviel on February 07, 2019, 02:26:33 AM
I see this idea represented a lot. But your text implies that there is mist on regular borders which to the best of my knowledge is inaccurate. Perhaps someone can point me to a source that states otherwise.

I'm aware there is a perpetual misty border to the village of Barovia, i suppose it helps strahd keep a food source close at hand. But that is not the border of the domain, and the borders for other lands are varied, some not even having one. Falkovnia is documented iirc as having no way to close it's borders other than military might.

There is a reason there is a difference between the islands in the mist, and the fact that the core is it's own continent, it means there is a consistency of location relative to another location, something a mist border would prohibit by the very nature of the mist.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Hallvor Hadiya on February 07, 2019, 02:47:34 AM
I see this idea represented a lot. But your text implies that there is mist on regular borders which to the best of my knowledge is inaccurate. Perhaps someone can point me to a source that states otherwise.

You are right, the Core domains on the average do not have mist boarders(however most can be closed by Darklords, with few exceptions) and while the mist does sometimes appear there according to the whims of the Dark Powers, to steal away wandering groups or plant them there. On the average you can travel between, however, you cannot do this in POTM and must travel the mists to get to your intended location either by the caravans or mist banks. Or are so hard to get to that they're not worth your time. I've never seen one before, but there could be.

There is a reason there is a difference between the islands in the mist, and the fact that the core is it's own continent, it means there is a consistency of location relative to another location, something a mist border would prohibit by the very nature of the mist.

Islands of Terror, as you've said are unconnected to the main continent. But the suggestion is to make adjacent Domains accessible to caravans.


Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Daboomer on February 07, 2019, 02:50:28 AM
There is not a mistcamp either in lore and all i can say to this idea is yes.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: -Kaz on February 07, 2019, 03:26:42 AM
+1
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: RickDeckard on February 07, 2019, 03:30:47 AM
+1
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Exordium on February 07, 2019, 04:35:17 AM
The reason the Mist Camp exists is to be a hub, a place that lots of players need to travel through and where they thus may run to each other more naturally. I'm unsure if making passing it easy would end up being a good thing from the perspective of encouraging encounters.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Hallvor Hadiya on February 07, 2019, 05:01:27 AM
The reason the Mist Camp exists is to be a hub, a place that lots of players need to travel through and where they thus may run to each other more naturally. I'm unsure if making passing it easy would end up being a good thing from the perspective of encouraging encounters.

There's value in taking risks, and it can be rolled back with little problem if implemented. However, I am for the movement of a hub it won't just disappear people will explore other regions and congregate elsewhere. And it might not even take, people will still journey there to sell their loot and likely wait for fellow adventurers.

Now the next part might be a more personal perspective, but its one shared by a number of people. I do not actually enjoy the mist-camp, there is something separate about it like there's no culture or overarching influence, its a place people go to wait and it becomes a place to sit and stare into a camp fire. You can never be apart of the camp, only come and go. Unlike with Barovia, or Port-A-Lucine where characters are born, touched by their heritage and roots and can even contribute to it by joining the Gendarm, Garda, the theatre, local business. But due to the nature of the Vistani you can't become a protector or permanent facet of the camp.

That doesn't mean there hasn't been great RP at the camp, but I'd account that more to the steady stream of people than a fostering environment for it. I think the chance is worthwhile and makes sense from a lore standpoint and mechanical.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Exordium on February 07, 2019, 05:50:37 AM
Now the next part might be a more personal perspective, but its one shared by a number of people. I do not actually enjoy the mist-camp, there is something separate about it like there's no culture or overarching influence, its a place people go to wait and it becomes a place to sit and stare into a camp fire. You can never be apart of the camp, only come and go. Unlike with Barovia, or Port-A-Lucine where characters are born, touched by their heritage and roots and can even contribute to it by joining the Gendarm, Garda, the theatre, local business. But due to the nature of the Vistani you can't become a protector or permanent facet of the camp.

That doesn't mean there hasn't been great RP at the camp, but I'd account that more to the steady stream of people than a fostering environment for it. I think the chance is worthwhile and makes sense from a lore standpoint and mechanical.

I do actually agree there. It's a bit difficult to find a reason for why a character would stay in the Mist Camp. After all, they are completely at the mercy of the Vistani there. At any given moment, the mysterious and suspicious lot might just pack it up and leave you stranded with no way out. Feels kind of OOC to have my characters linger there.

But there's a problem with finding an alternative hub. Village of Barovia is supposed to feel extremely unwelcoming and make anyone staying there feel at unease. Dementlieu doesn't fit many traditional DnD characters, such as druids, rangers, vagabonds, zealots, barbarians, so on. Yet the reality is that sustaining even two hubs is difficult at times, so having more than that is more or less a no-go. Encouraging people to spread out to the various other locales, the many taverns, bars, churches and so on, has been tried in the past, and it's not only hard to do, but also leads to people not running into each other as much. So as it stands I do think there needs to be two obvious hubs that are welcoming to most types of characters. One hub for lower levels, one hub for higher levels, to encourage the (somewhat artificial) segregation of the two.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: BraveSirRobin on February 07, 2019, 08:52:43 AM
If the MC was removed, people would naturally congregate elsewhere. Itís probably be for the best. The campfire at Tser Pool would probably become naturally popular, and become a de facto Mist Camp for a travel hub to hang out and find groups. VoB, despite everything said about it, has one of the nicest, most expansive and well furnished inns on the entire server. You can only get a similar experience at the Governorís Hotel in Dementlieu, but itís always booked. The Mist Camp is just this no manís land of perceived neutrality, it breaks the lore, and ultimately kinda sucks.

For instance. When people go ďMist Walking,Ē they always go from the Mist Camp out. It feels much more immersive for people to go to a respective domainís mist vein and try to navigate from there to whatever it is they want to find.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 07, 2019, 09:18:08 AM
I don't think the thread is asking for the removal of the MC...only for caravan routes to have the choice of bypassing it.

Although server numbers seem to be dropping down from their peak of a month or so ago when I actually saw 100 players logged in at one time, another practical reason for this change is a greater number of players means waiting on the caravan for longer periods. Not having to catch the caravan twice would be really nice :)

Now the next part might be a more personal perspective, but its one shared by a number of people. I do not actually enjoy the mist-camp, there is something separate about it like there's no culture or overarching influence, its a place people go to wait and it becomes a place to sit and stare into a camp fire. You can never be apart of the camp, only come and go. Unlike with Barovia, or Port-A-Lucine where characters are born, touched by their heritage and roots and can even contribute to it by joining the Gendarm, Garda, the theatre, local business. But due to the nature of the Vistani you can't become a protector or permanent facet of the camp.

That doesn't mean there hasn't been great RP at the camp, but I'd account that more to the steady stream of people than a fostering environment for it. I think the chance is worthwhile and makes sense from a lore standpoint and mechanical.

I do actually agree there. It's a bit difficult to find a reason for why a character would stay in the Mist Camp. After all, they are completely at the mercy of the Vistani there. At any given moment, the mysterious and suspicious lot might just pack it up and leave you stranded with no way out. Feels kind of OOC to have my characters linger there.

I've always rationalized the current structure as similar to an airport hub. It's simply more efficient for the Vistani to do it this way than to operate independent routes from every domain to every other domain. But this would more adequately explain the situation if the caravans were scheduled, rather than being personal charters.

Quote
But there's a problem with finding an alternative hub. Village of Barovia is supposed to feel extremely unwelcoming and make anyone staying there feel at unease. Dementlieu doesn't fit many traditional DnD characters, such as druids, rangers, vagabonds, zealots, barbarians, so on. Yet the reality is that sustaining even two hubs is difficult at times, so having more than that is more or less a no-go. Encouraging people to spread out to the various other locales, the many taverns, bars, churches and so on, has been tried in the past, and it's not only hard to do, but also leads to people not running into each other as much. So as it stands I do think there needs to be two obvious hubs that are welcoming to most types of characters. One hub for lower levels, one hub for higher levels, to encourage the (somewhat artificial) segregation of the two.

The MC could continue to operate as a hub for players who want that kind of RP: gather up a party and go dungeon crawling. But for PCs who spend a lot of time traveling from one domain to another, it's just a time sink. Some of the server's time sinks I can rationalize by the need to create a sense of isolation (absence of fast travel) or to make a skill valuable (grindy nature of crafting). But most of the time when Iridni is on a caravan she's alone, doing nothing, and I take the opportunity to get another cup of tea, for example. Because other players tend to to the same thing, the situation is often the same even with a traveling companion.

Money doesn't seem to be an important factor here, but if developers believe otherwise, the price could be doubled for those opting to bypass the MC.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 07, 2019, 09:19:22 AM
I forgot to mention that when the Vistani Captain gets killed, it's a big problem until fixed.

If the MC were bypassable, that would also be alleviated.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Nemesis 24 on February 07, 2019, 09:52:10 AM
Surprisingly enough, there are characters who cannot exist anywhere at all, not truly.  They can't go to any of the domains because of things they've done, and what they look like.  They're the outcasts amongst outcasts, and they do pop up from time to time.  The Mist Camp is where they go and linger because, well, there is no where else for them to be.  That shouldn't be a playstyle that is forced to be ended because it cannot function in any civilian area, and yet nevertheless wishes to interact with other characters.  Sure, they could lurk in an unknown area, away from everyone and have no interaction - but that is basically soft closing the character in many regards.

Not all of us belong, and sometimes, not all of us belong 'for a time'.  Sometimes there needs to be a halfway place, until a niche is filled that this outcasted individual can then fill out themselves.  This has happened quite a few times, and it usually results out of interactions of the Mist Camp.  The Mist Camp, the melting pot of all people, is what allows for this interaction that otherwise wouldn't be possible, until they can actually find a place that they belong.  My main for a long time functioned exactly like this, as there was nowhere that truly fit the character as a place they could remain.  Others have been in the same situation for various reasons.  Giving people the means to bypass the MC would limit interactions to these already often quite lonely characters, who despite the fact they've ended up in a tricky position, shouldn't be punished further over it.  Not least when many of them can provide a rich roleplay experience for others (not me though I'm just terrible, but other folks have provided enormous narrative strength to others).

It for this 'flow on effect' that I'm a bit wary.  Mist camp is dangerous, true, but it serves a very interesting function too.  Thematically it may lack compared to other locations?  I never really felt that personally.  But it provides quite a lot to many folks that otherwise wouldn't be possible for them, depriving them of the core enjoyments we all try to have here.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Edward on February 07, 2019, 10:07:31 AM
It for this 'flow on effect' that I'm a bit wary.  Mist camp is dangerous, true, but it serves a very interesting function too.  Thematically it may lack compared to other locations?  I never really felt that personally.  But it provides quite a lot to many folks that otherwise wouldn't be possible for them, depriving them of the core enjoyments we all try to have here.

+1
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 07, 2019, 10:08:19 AM
Giving people the means to bypass the MC would limit interactions to these already often quite lonely characters, who despite the fact they've ended up in a tricky position, shouldn't be punished further over it.  Not least when many of them can provide a rich roleplay experience for others...

If a PC provides rich RP for others, she will be sought out! At least by those who value rich RP :D

Regarding punishment and how far it should extend, though, well, that's subjective. (See this recent discussion (https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=50123.msg613888#msg613888).) PCs get imprisoned and even closured for their actions, and if they've managed to become banished from both hubs, that seems pretty significant and worthy of relative isolation.

In any case, I can't support an argument that says other PCs have to be "punished" in turn by being forced to go through the MC for the benefit of those banished. Those who want to stop and RP can and will, but it's not a justification for holding up those who have RP elsewhere they're trying to get to.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Arawn on February 07, 2019, 10:22:12 AM
A guiding principle of the development of this module is and has always been maximizing player encounters, be it through travel routes, crafting hubs, and so on. As a result, although we have considered exactly this proposal (and others) internally in the past, we find that the current setup most creates the possibility for player interactions, including hostile ones. This is by design. If it bothers you that wanted characters are forced to transit through the Mist Camp, consider that for the purposes of tracking someone down you should be able to speak to every NPC who may have seen them, follow physical trails, and so on. Being allowed to circumvent the Mist Camp without being liable to all these other possible drawbacks isnít balanced, either. We believe the current situation has the desired effect.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Hatsune on February 07, 2019, 10:58:06 AM
I'd just love to be able to enter the mists themselves from domains other then the Mist camp! Make bypassing the Mist camp come with its own risks and hardships, rather then just more money.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Edward on February 07, 2019, 11:13:38 AM
I'd just love to be able to enter the mists themselves from domains other then the Mist camp! Make bypassing the Mist camp come with its own risks and hardships, rather then just more money.

You can do this already.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: zDark Shadowz on February 07, 2019, 02:17:04 PM
Yeah, when your domain isn't closed off from the Mists, you can pop through it (as dangerous as it is to some, especially when some paladin or cleric has run through not concealed and triggered all the casters to cast see invisibility/true seeing). I live off invisibility potions and have fun (most times) travelling the randomness of the Mists.

As for this quote here...

VoB, despite everything said about it, has one of the nicest, most expansive and well furnished inns on the entire server. You can only get a similar experience at the Governorís Hotel in Dementlieu, but itís always booked.

The Blood of the Vine is overly large, with expansive corridors making inefficient use of space. It'd make more sense if wagons were regularly pulled through it, but... It's just far larger than it needs to be, with no cohesion in design. My thoughts.

I'd be up for more static travel ways between connected domains, and for the alternative currently in place I'm thankful that the Mists aren't just a loading screen the Vistani use. If you know where you're going and get familiar with transitions then you can for instance, use it to head from Hazlans' border and enter into Barovia. Or be diverted by the Mists somewhere else entirely.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Arawn on February 07, 2019, 02:29:01 PM

Quote
"The Blood of the Vine is overly large, with expansive corridors making inefficient use of space. It'd make more sense if wagons were regularly pulled through it, but... It's just far larger than it needs to be, with no cohesion in design. My thoughts.


This is because it's copied tile-for-tile from an early RPG set in Ravenloft.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: haifisch021 on February 07, 2019, 03:15:40 PM
The Blood of the Vine is overly large, with expansive corridors making inefficient use of space. It'd make more sense if wagons were regularly pulled through it, but... It's just far larger than it needs to be, with no cohesion in design. My thoughts.

Personally I think it makes sense for the Blood of the Vine to be overly large. It reminds me of a zombie survival PW I played a while ago. There's one big room where people (NPCs) congregate, crowding in that one room like refugees trying to hide from something, and the rest of the inn is pretty desolate and abandoned. It definitely feels a lot lonelier in there than in other inns around the Core and considering how empty and beaten-down the town is, this atmosphere is fitting. It definitely provides space for spooky encounters to occur at least!
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Tycat on February 07, 2019, 04:39:19 PM
Two rooms, you mean. It also has a bar where a band plays full of npcs and you can change the music.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Silas Rotleaf on February 07, 2019, 07:08:35 PM
This is true but to me it was always more of a refrigerator logic thing.
Sure you can go between domains on foot through mistways and donít ďneedĒ to use the caravan every time... but, if you are going to take the caravan... I just kind of like the structure of mist camp being as like your layover/stop terminal between flights kind of???
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Ezras Outcast on February 07, 2019, 07:15:30 PM
A guiding principle of the development of this module is and has always been maximizing player encounters, be it through travel routes, crafting hubs, and so on. As a result, although we have considered exactly this proposal (and others) internally in the past, we find that the current setup most creates the possibility for player interactions, including hostile ones.

I totally agree and think this is a great idea, apart from that the hostile actions namely PVP cant occur in the MC without a DM present and usually thats not available. So while there are interactions arn't they artificially hindered?
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Arawn on February 07, 2019, 07:19:49 PM
A guiding principle of the development of this module is and has always been maximizing player encounters, be it through travel routes, crafting hubs, and so on. As a result, although we have considered exactly this proposal (and others) internally in the past, we find that the current setup most creates the possibility for player interactions, including hostile ones.

I totally agree and think this is a great idea, apart from that the hostile actions namely PVP cant occur in the MC without a DM present and usually thats not available. So while there are interactions arn't they artificially hindered?

PvP can happen. Just not in front of the NPC. Itís a big area.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Ezras Outcast on February 07, 2019, 08:09:42 PM
For sure! But more often then not the NPC rules are taken advantage of and the victim or participant will move towards the NPCs to stay "safe" - Maybe since the camp is split in to two seperate areas the "entrance" area could maybe be made open PVP? Captain doesnt care unless hes affected?
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Troukk on February 07, 2019, 10:42:24 PM
I love this idea.

In fact, if you want to make the inter-domain caravan cost 200g and be twice as long I'd be fine with it. Just avoiding mist camp sounds fantastic.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on February 07, 2019, 10:44:30 PM
For sure! But more often then not the NPC rules are taken advantage of and the victim or participant will move towards the NPCs to stay "safe" - Maybe since the camp is split in to two seperate areas the "entrance" area could maybe be made open PVP? Captain doesnt care unless hes affected?
Given the rules posted in their camp, I doubt the Captain would just ignore violence being done right in front of him. I can definitely see him subduing or killing both aggressors, considering it would be bad for their business. No one wants to see people getting murdered, not even hardened murderers, excepting psychopaths that revel casually in bloodshed.

Also, "entrance" and "open PVP" don't go together. I know it's possible in tons of areas, especially those with high-rises and obstacles surrounding a transition, but the idea that someone can just be waiting to kill you while you are getting kicked out of the caravan at an unexpected moment is especially troublesome. That's how we'll end up encouraging transition campers, and shoving those wanted people out of the Mist Camp, which is a whole new problem, according to many posters in this thread.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: EO on February 07, 2019, 11:08:08 PM
People can PvP in the Arrival area of the Mist Camp; it's the main reason we split the camp in two areas in the first place.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Ezras Outcast on February 07, 2019, 11:19:32 PM
Thank you for the confirmation!
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Nemesis 24 on February 07, 2019, 11:29:21 PM
Bad for business?  The times I've seen it, its been good for business, as the Vistani either demand payment for disturbing the peace or get paid to look the other way.  They don't care about any of you after all.  Either way, good to confirm that the entrance is a place where PvP is allowed.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: foxtale on February 08, 2019, 12:10:46 AM
Entering the mist camp unbothered is as easy as wearing a mask and new full robe / armor.

I do not believe in changing your voice or gait for extended periods of time, but with how commonly adventurers wear masks just for aesthetics - and Halans literally never taking their veils off for religious reasons, it would be metagaming to see through such disguises in the little time it takes to hop from one wagon to the next. If you are wanted, just keep a low profile and screenshot in doubt.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 08, 2019, 12:28:57 AM
Without ever testing other setups, isn't whether the MC is the "most optimal for player interactions" only a hunch?

Also, have you ever seen anyone claim the MC was the best place for high-quality RP on the server? Rather than just optimizing for number of interactions, the quality of those interactions is at least as important.

Even for PvP the RP at the MC is generally inferior because of all the factors discussed in the AMPC thread: lots of unconnected characters present, a need to strike quickly because of a lack of privacy and the potential for other PCs to arrive at any time, a flavorless setting that contributes almost nothing to the PC's potential closure story. Would anyone opt to have her PC closured at the MC versus some place more meaningful?

All that said, I think the MC is useful. Players can gather a party and have ready transportation to most of the server's dungeons. But in all honesty, this, too, leads to OOC behavior because of player desire to form strong groups that can conquer places like Sithicus. I see known evil people team up with paladins, and if you object, you get left out and are often viewed as the spoilsport.

I like having a place I can go to and signal I'm ready to dungeon. But when I'm doing something more IC, I'd like to be able to avoid such an artificial-feeling waypoint.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Arawn on February 08, 2019, 12:30:51 AM
The MC isnít as old as you might think.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on February 08, 2019, 12:34:48 AM
Bad for business?  The times I've seen it, its been good for business, as the Vistani either demand payment for disturbing the peace or get paid to look the other way.  They don't care about any of you after all.
My line of thinking is, the law they posted on the sign says not to do it, so backing down on it is questionable. If they really don't care about anyone or their giorgio business, they'd just execute anyone doing it in their camp to keep things from escalating and threatening their own people needlessly.

I don't know if the Captain pursues aggressors, I'm still new, and I don't disagree with people PvPing there, but I mean, there is an armed guard right there. Naturally, I would go with what happens ingame; I don't think NPCs are smart enough to demand payment, but I'm unaware if the Captain is scripted to respond to people attacking each other by intervening in the fight. I think there's nothing wrong with him doing so if he does. If he does not, excuse my ignorance, I just saw other people mentioning that PvP can't happen in front of him and don't know the context of it.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: FinalHeaven on February 08, 2019, 12:57:18 AM
Bad for business?  The times I've seen it, its been good for business, as the Vistani either demand payment for disturbing the peace or get paid to look the other way.  They don't care about any of you after all.
My line of thinking is, the law they posted on the sign says not to do it, so backing down on it is questionable. If they really don't care about anyone or their giorgio business, they'd just execute anyone doing it in their camp to keep things from escalating and threatening their own people needlessly.

I don't know if the Captain pursues aggressors, I'm still new, and I don't disagree with people PvPing there, but I mean, there is an armed guard right there. Naturally, I would go with what happens ingame; I don't think NPCs are smart enough to demand payment, but I'm unaware if the Captain is scripted to respond to people attacking each other by intervening in the fight. I think there's nothing wrong with him doing so if he does. If he does not, excuse my ignorance, I just saw other people mentioning that PvP can't happen in front of him and don't know the context of it.

The rule is that you're not allowed to PvP in front of an NPC without DM oversight.  You can absolutely PvP off in a corner away from NPCs. 

The Vistani however are notoriously greedy - or rumored to be, at the very least.  People have bribed them in the past to turn a blind eye to violence and it will happen again.  This is generally for violence in the main camp, but I've also witnessed the Captain clearly walking away just before a fight breaks out.  This all requires a DM, though.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Hallvor Hadiya on February 08, 2019, 01:03:12 AM
While the discussion of the nature of the MC in of itself is fine, but the main bulk of the thread is about movement and allowing the players the choice to skip past it. Even if these changes are made, it is unlikely to replace the Mist Camp. It has too many conveniences to be ignored, a dedicated healer, shop, resting tent which is free of charge and easy access to all Domains(likely Blaustein would be only accessible from there even if this was implemented, due to it to being an island of terror same with Ghastria). This is for people who would otherwise wouldn't stop there for one reason or another.

But it also stops a theoretical problem, if I wanted to and knew someone was of a certain level and they were actively dungeoning I can simply wait for them at the mist camp, either to jump on a caravan after them or to wait for them to move towards the Vistani Camp transition out of the view of the NPC. And rogues certainly have this benefit when they can sneak onto your wagon. Realistically and thematically people of certain notoriety or disposition wouldn't go there, but due to the artificial nature of it, they must.

But, if we must discuss replacing the Mist Camp, you could probably pick a domain and have the Vistani camp proper near, greatly enriching the domains role-play and creation of roles within said community. Ghastria comes to mind, and it also makes sense as Vistani do move from one location to the next.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Nemesis 24 on February 08, 2019, 01:04:41 AM
Sardine - do it in the main camp and you'll be absolutely destroyed by those present.  But the caravan captain in the outer camp will just ease on back and let you carry on.  The seperate camp is seperate precisely 'because' of that sort of thing so it can exist.  They don't attack aggressors.  Its not their business until it goes into the main camp.

As for this -

Without ever testing other setups, isn't whether the MC is the "most optimal for player interactions" only a hunch?

Also, have you ever seen anyone claim the MC was the best place for high-quality RP on the server? Rather than just optimizing for number of interactions, the quality of those interactions is at least as important.

Even for PvP the RP at the MC is generally inferior because of all the factors discussed in the AMPC thread: lots of unconnected characters present, a need to strike quickly because of a lack of privacy and the potential for other PCs to arrive at any time, a flavorless setting that contributes almost nothing to the PC's potential closure story. Would anyone opt to have her PC closured at the MC versus some place more meaningful?

All that said, I think the MC is useful. Players can gather a party and have ready transportation to most of the server's dungeons. But in all honesty, this, too, leads to OOC behavior because of player desire to form strong groups that can conquer places like Sithicus. I see known evil people team up with paladins, and if you object, you get left out and are often viewed as the spoilsport.

I like having a place I can go to and signal I'm ready to dungeon. But when I'm doing something more IC, I'd like to be able to avoid such an artificial-feeling waypoint.

I can say some of my best roleplay has taken place in the Mist Camp.  I didn't have the option to do it elsewhere, and it was, in truth, fantastic.  The fact it is 'neutral ground' is absolutely not to be overlooked, as there is in fact extremely little such ground anywhere in the server; and sometimes, such neutral ground is required.  To call or imply all of it that takes place there as bad is something of a disservice.  The difference between it and the Outskirts is enormous.

As for PvP, having taken part in quite a lot of it, I can say that PvP in the MC has never even remotely resembled the absolute debacle that is PvP in the outskirts, which is so chaotic as to be sheer noise.  If we're talking about about it being a place flavorless for closures, perhaps - but frankly, choosing where you closure smacks of predetermined PvP, rather than organic. 

On that note, if we had bypass areas, that were mini Vistani camps or simply guarded by local soldiers, then they would be 'dead zones' of PvP, where it'd be extremely difficult if not impossible due to NPC presence.  Its already difficult enough as it is to get PvP due to the limitations of NPC oversight as having a DM is difficult (which is just limitations of having real lives and expecting constant oversight just isn't fair)  which smacks of consequence avoidance to me.  It's already quite difficult to pursue PvP, the Mist Camp is one of the very few places where it is quite possible to engage in it.  Taking it away and avoiding it feels like weakening the danger of the setting, and the threat, and I'm personally always going to be against that.

As for paladins working with evil characters, always report that to a DM.  It's something for them to make judgements upon, and their ruling will decide it.

Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: RedwizardD on February 08, 2019, 01:25:50 AM
It would be nice if a second cart was available to address the issue of higher traffic.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on February 08, 2019, 01:30:02 AM
The rule is that you're not allowed to PvP in front of an NPC without DM oversight.  You can absolutely PvP off in a corner away from NPCs. 

The Vistani however are notoriously greedy - or rumored to be, at the very least.  People have bribed them in the past to turn a blind eye to violence and it will happen again.  This is generally for violence in the main camp, but I've also witnessed the Captain clearly walking away just before a fight breaks out.  This all requires a DM, though.
Sardine - do it in the main camp and you'll be absolutely destroyed by those present.  But the caravan captain in the outer camp will just ease on back and let you carry on.  The seperate camp is seperate precisely 'because' of that sort of thing so it can exist.  They don't attack aggressors.  Its not their business until it goes into the main camp.
That all sounds fair enough to me then, sorry about the confusion.

In terms of the closure argument - once again, never had a bountied or closured character, very new here. I would say it's up to the player to avoid going to the Mist Camp if they know their hunters might be found there, waiting for them, like anywhere else. If their character is privy to that information, and doesn't want to take the unnecessary risk, of course.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Ezras Outcast on February 08, 2019, 05:20:32 AM
The rule is that you're not allowed to PvP in front of an NPC without DM oversight.

I think that the Captain is the exception to the rule as per EO, I think.

People can PvP in the Arrival area of the Mist Camp; it's the main reason we split the camp in two areas in the first place.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: fenixphire on February 08, 2019, 10:13:00 AM
I love this idea.

In fact, if you want to make the inter-domain caravan cost 200g and be twice as long I'd be fine with it. Just avoiding mist camp sounds fantastic.

I can 100% see why you would like that, but then there wouldn't be things like when Saffron hopped in right behind you only to turn around as the doors close and see who she had gotten in with. It was a small interaction, but actually a bit significant for her, in its way.

I personally like MC, though, and have found myself talking with and playing with people I cam not sure I would have ever crossed paths with otherwise. If you don't have some kind of neutral ground, people are mostly going to keep within their same circles and domains, which would be a shame, imo.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: HopeIsTheCarrot on February 08, 2019, 11:52:14 AM
Quote
I can 100% see why you would like that, but then there wouldn't be things like when Saffron hopped in right behind you only to turn around
I personally like MC, though, and have found myself talking with and playing with people I cam not sure I would have ever crossed paths with otherwise. If you don't have some kind of neutral ground, people are mostly going to keep within their same circles and domains, which would be a shame, imo.

I also really like the Mist Camp as it exists now. I agree that an encampment of traveling Vistani doesnít really make the most sense for such an organized and seemingly permanent hub, however I think itís the worth the trade off for what goes on there. Itís the best and most authentic large scale meeting point I have seen in a long time. The Ladyís Rest and outskirts Church of the Morninglord used to be great places of congregating. But we have somewhat recently transitioned into this mindset of ďletís all just stand outside the city gates all night long and pretend like we arenít in Barovia.Ē So I would actually argue that the Mist Camp has a more authentic feel to it than the Outskirts, given the way so many players seem to disregard the night. I have seen solid role play based in extensive trading, crafting, and just sitting around the campfire, all of which would occur far less often without such a well established central hub.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Troukk on February 08, 2019, 01:59:38 PM
I love this idea.

In fact, if you want to make the inter-domain caravan cost 200g and be twice as long I'd be fine with it. Just avoiding mist camp sounds fantastic.

I can 100% see why you would like that, but then there wouldn't be things like when Saffron hopped in right behind you only to turn around as the doors close and see who she had gotten in with. It was a small interaction, but actually a bit significant for her, in its way.

I personally like MC, though, and have found myself talking with and playing with people I cam not sure I would have ever crossed paths with otherwise. If you don't have some kind of neutral ground, people are mostly going to keep within their same circles and domains, which would be a shame, imo.

I think you guys are still confusing the point of the thread.

The OP is not calling for the elimination of the mist camp and neither am I. What is being proposed is to be able to pay a caravan that goes directly from one domain to a neighboring domain (like from barovia to hazlan).

I still think MC has it's uses as an adventuring hub, but there are non-adventuring focused characters (like the one I'm playing now) that would appreciate avoiding the unwanted attention of landing on a hub while travelling.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: King Pickle on February 08, 2019, 02:10:03 PM
Burn the MC.

If your character is some kind of an outsider and fits nowhere in the domains... Welcome to the life of an outsider I guess. You still have to be somewhere.
If you can't initiate PvP elsewhere, that person probably doesn't want to roleplay with you... So you probably shouldn't roleplay with them.

Speaking of roleplay, all I hear there is: "Hello, we just cleared place X. Now we want to go to place Y. Has anyone cleared it recently?"


Oh and there's a shop too. The shop is nice.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on February 08, 2019, 02:25:43 PM
If your character is some kind of an outsider and fits nowhere in the domains... Welcome to the life of an outsider I guess. You still have to be somewhere.

I don't really have a horse in this race either way but I agree with this. If this hub were removed, people would find another. The wanted and the hunted have a great story kicker waiting for them MC or not.

"Hello, we just cleared place X. Now we want to go to place Y. Has anyone cleared it recently?"

I sleep hearing this. Obviously it's not mist camp exclusive, but it reminds me of theme park MMOs. I wish people didn't approach dungeon areas like this, it feels less like an adventure and more like a routine trip to the supermarket.
Title: Re: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains
Post by: Arawn on February 08, 2019, 02:40:57 PM
This is getting a little off-track, and we've explained why we don't intend to add this feature, so I'm going to close it for now.