Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Troukk on February 01, 2019, 09:44:08 AM

Title: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Troukk on February 01, 2019, 09:44:08 AM
I have seen a creeping trend of giving items the following characteristic:

(http://i64.tinypic.com/i60595.jpg)

I just want to say that this is a roleplaying server and looks are a VERY important part of a character. I don't think that being respectful to the item's "lore" is more important than being able to make a character look the part. In the end you're just making certain items unusable for players that take their looks seriously, unless they happen to have a legacy version of the item that can be modded.

I understand that it's more realistic not allowing certain items to be modded, but I just don't think it's worth it. Would love to know what the rest of you guys think.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: modderpunk on February 01, 2019, 10:45:10 AM
I think not being able to use items because they don't fit your style is also part of roleplay. Also sometimes wearing stuff that does not fit your regular style because it suits your purpose can also generate roleplay.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Daboomer on February 01, 2019, 11:16:20 AM
I generaly would agree with troukk here. Take such a thing as a detection helmet so hideous your Friends and fellow family Will be sure youve gone mad even would you hear anything due to wearing the helmet. Or how you cant have a piece of Magic clothing crafted to look like what you like even for ungodly sums. It seems to me a poor Choice.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Agony on February 01, 2019, 11:48:47 AM
If it is a unique, only one exists on the entire sever kind of thing, I can get it not being moddable.

For items that there are more of? Especially those that you can always get, given enough time and coin? Seems a bit silly.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 01, 2019, 12:11:01 PM
I don't think either position is silly. If an item has a special quality, then altering it could easily destroy that quality--either because the item was magic and changing it caused it to lose the magic, or because the structure of the item was necessary to its having the quality (form follows function).

Also, wanting a certain appearance increases the value of craftable items.

I can also see, however, player frustration if the favored gear for a particular class were to be unique and convey an unpleasing aesthetic. Rather than arguing this point on a server-wide basis, it might be better to address individual items.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Troukk on February 01, 2019, 12:48:50 PM
I don't think either position is silly. If an item has a special quality, then altering it could easily destroy that quality--either because the item was magic and changing it caused it to lose the magic, or because the structure of the item was necessary to its having the quality (form follows function).

Also, wanting a certain appearance increases the value of craftable items.

I can also see, however, player frustration if the favored gear for a particular class were to be unique and convey an unpleasing aesthetic. Rather than arguing this point on a server-wide basis, it might be better to address individual items.

Ok sure, l'll give an example:

Helmet of the bat, it has literally prevented me from making any listen detection based character ever.

I understand the bat ears are supposed to make it easier to listen. Yeah I get it. But this is a mechanical game too, and especially when it comes to sneaking/detection, min-maxing is important. But I don't want my characted to look ridiculous while doing so.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Philos on February 01, 2019, 01:30:43 PM
I think a lot of this argument is centered around one or two items in particular. The best answer might simply be proposing other items in a same slot that have similar properties with some different flavor and more or less negatives attached.

I really don't disagree with you troukk, I just think I'd be easier to get what you want.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: FinalHeaven on February 01, 2019, 01:41:03 PM
I'm of the same mind as fenixphire.  I think that if there were more genuinely unique, one of a kind items it would be more interesting. As it stands though you often come across an item that can't be modified due to "lore" reasons, but there are others items that may be from the exact same culture IC that can still be modified.

Though I also agree with Philos, I'd say there are only a few items where this really might matter and it's those items that have a pretty useful purpose.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Ophie Kitty on February 01, 2019, 01:53:40 PM
I think not being able to use items because they don't fit your style is also part of roleplay. Also sometimes wearing stuff that does not fit your regular style because it suits your purpose can also generate roleplay.
The issue is likely that what can/can't be modded is typically very selective. Lets see some of the BiS stealth-gear and armors be un-moddable too?
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Legion XXI on February 01, 2019, 01:59:29 PM
The fact that I can make my stealth armor into a spiky hot pink abomination with a glowy VFX helm and a purple bear-fur cloak, and have it still function perfectly as stealth gear, just shows you how silly it is to do things like require listen builds to have big bat ears.

I feel like if you really wanted to argue it, you could make just about any item non-craftable by the whole "function" argument.  It seems like it was arbitrarily peppered in on about 30% of items it could apply to.

Maybe these items could be modifiable, but at a 2x cost increase to represent how difficult it would be to change the delicate nature of the item's complicated inner workings?

What I don't want is the Dev response to just be "ok we'll just make all those items un-moddable too then" because I literally cannot take PCs seriously that look like they got dressed in the dark.  And I've never really run into an un-moddable item that I saw and thought "Hey, that looks cool"
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Purist on February 01, 2019, 02:29:51 PM
Being stuck with the default Garda armors for years, I know the pain, but we can live with that, they have to look the same anyway. I partially agree with taking out the limitation, but then I saw the other day someone drop a uber mega hyper good Platinum Helmet, but it had the looks of a hood.... You'll say that the helmet is beneath the hood there, but it's just fishy to do that...
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Legion XXI on February 01, 2019, 03:34:36 PM
Being stuck with the default Garda armors for years, I know the pain, but we can live with that, they have to look the same anyway. I partially agree with taking out the limitation, but then I saw the other day someone drop a uber mega hyper good Platinum Helmet, but it had the looks of a hood.... You'll say that the helmet is beneath the hood there, but it's just fishy to do that...

For me, I just don't see why it's such a big deal.  I mean, ok - hoods made of cloth aren't protective to the head, sure.  But why is that a main concern here (not just for you, I mean for the system in general)?  Like if people started crafting all items to historically accurate protective gear, would RP suddenly explode and flourish in a rich, meaningful way on the server?  I doubt it would change much at all, aside from how generic everyone would look.  It also begs the question - why do we even have the hood appearance at all?  Why not lock it to a few items like "shadowed hood" and then not let anyone else wear it?

In fantasy games like this, unique appearances and customization is just one of the "fun" little bones that players get thrown.  You get to make your hero/villain look unique and creative, rather than strict adherence to historical accuracy, realism, and combat equipment design.  I always liked that, and I always liked seeing some variation in what players choose to have their PCs look like.  Do these items kill that entirely?  No, of course not.  But it just seems like we're putting water on something that wasn't on fire, you know?
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 01, 2019, 03:52:34 PM
In fantasy games like this, unique appearances and customization is just one of the "fun" little bones that players get thrown.  You get to make your hero/villain look unique and creative, rather than strict adherence to historical accuracy, realism, and combat equipment design.  I always liked that, and I always liked seeing some variation in what players choose to have their PCs look like.  Do these items kill that entirely?  No, of course not.  But it just seems like we're putting water on something that wasn't on fire, you know?

Sure. But Ravenloft is a specific setting, and many of the loot items are designed to add flavor to that setting. It's a reason they have text descriptions that are sometimes quite lengthy.

Since I've been here, most of the change has felt (to me) as though the setting has grown progressively weaker in influence. Partly this is likely from IC experience; being higher level and spending more time in other domains inevitably give the server more of an "Epcot" feel than Gothic Horror.

Do times change and POTM needs to change with them? Perhaps, but the setting is a major factor that distinguishes POTM from other NWN servers. Players aren't allowed to play any race they want. The last I checked, we couldn't have bizarre combinations of skin, hair, and eye color (although maybe that, too, has been relaxed). So limits exist and have long existed in customization of character to keep from damaging the setting.

This:
Quote
The best answer might simply be proposing other items in a same slot that have similar properties with some different flavor and more or less negatives attached.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Troukk on February 01, 2019, 04:02:05 PM
In fantasy games like this, unique appearances and customization is just one of the "fun" little bones that players get thrown.  You get to make your hero/villain look unique and creative, rather than strict adherence to historical accuracy, realism, and combat equipment design.  I always liked that, and I always liked seeing some variation in what players choose to have their PCs look like.  Do these items kill that entirely?  No, of course not.  But it just seems like we're putting water on something that wasn't on fire, you know?

Sure. But Ravenloft is a specific setting, and many of the loot items are designed to add flavor to that setting. It's a reason they have text descriptions that are sometimes quite lengthy.

Since I've been here, most of the change has felt (to me) as though the setting has grown progressively weaker in influence. Partly this is likely from IC experience; being higher level and spending more time in other domains inevitably give the server more of an "Epcot" feel than Gothic Horror.

Do times change and POTM needs to change with them? Perhaps, but the setting is a major factor that distinguishes POTM from other NWN servers. Players aren't allowed to play any race they want. The last I checked, we couldn't have bizarre combinations of skin, hair, and eye color (although maybe that, too, has been relaxed). So limits exist and have long existed in customization of character to keep from damaging the setting.

This:
Quote
The best answer might simply be proposing other items in a same slot that have similar properties with some different flavor and more or less negatives attached.

I agree with everything you said, but I think you inadvertently wandered away from the topic.

The people that are asking for freedom to mod are doing so to blend in and look like characters in this setting look, and some items don't allow us to do that because they can't be modded, which forces us to avoid those items. But not everyone thinks like that and sometimes we run into people using a helmet of the bat over a piece of cloth armor. And THAT actually breaks immersion.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: MAB77 on February 01, 2019, 04:37:54 PM
To be frank, I think to call it a trend is really far fetched as only a very small minority of items are set this way. Most of what we add does not have that restriction and we are not planing to add it to any other existing item. Though were not about to remove existing restrictions either.

We certainly added the property where we felt it was legitimate. A Dementlieuse Breastplate needs to look the part for obvious reasons for instance. But again, it is uncommon to see that property on an item.

Ultimately it is not even a question of server policy or Dev preferences. We simply leave that discretion to the one who submits the item. If the submitter feels the item should not be modifiable we'll respect that wish.

And we are always willing to consider new items, modifiable or not. So do keep those suggestions coming. ;)
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: BattleCupcake on February 01, 2019, 04:52:30 PM
And we are always willing to consider new items, modifiable or not. So do keep those suggestions coming. ;)

In fact, by suggesting the item, you make it as simple as a few clicks for the Developers to build it in the toolset... and then they can decide where it goes!

It's truly monumental the amount of work saved by making concrete suggestions!
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Wholesome Memester on February 01, 2019, 08:57:47 PM
While it's subjective ultimately, I do not think we're enhancing the server's atmosphere by making ki gear non-modifiable, the bat helmet retain it's silly appearance, or making the lamordian labcoat look like a trench coat when there's a perfectly viable surgeon's outfit model.

e.g,

Spoiler: show
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/492461425302962183/538604780143247371/1.PNG)


That could've been the lamordian labcoat and it'd still make sense to retain the +2 heal. Instead I just take some regular clothes because I'd rather not look like an absolute clown.

I really hope the developer team reconsiders their stance on non-modifiable items outside of faction gear.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: FinalHeaven on February 01, 2019, 09:06:45 PM
The change to make faction gear non-modifiable is even a recent one.  I fondly remember my first time wandering to Vallaki after Elias became the RVT Captain in Port, excited to hang out with Griswold and Simeun Radkov.  They were even planning a mission!

When I arrived, Griswold gave me 50k and told me to change my outfit because I looked dumb.

I think that for the most part people should be able to get the look they want for their character.  It's an important facet of most RPGs that helps define a character.  I can definitely understand faction gear not being modified (but pls change the red vardo suit omg), but a Helm of the Bat?  Meh.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: PlatointheCave on February 01, 2019, 09:18:30 PM
Hard agree.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Socha on February 01, 2019, 09:53:02 PM
Can we also get rid of all the appearance-locked monk clothes that were literally modeled after Street Fighter character outfits and only serve as meme fuel?
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Hatsune on February 02, 2019, 01:08:06 PM
I agree. all of the 'goggle' heads look atrocious, so of course my character has 3 sets of these she likes to use. I get it, but god the are near as bad as those dumb bat ears.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: haifisch021 on February 02, 2019, 10:28:55 PM
I have (and use) a number of non-modifiable gear pieces. They are made that way because the developer has a specific vision for the item and wants to see it maintained. As a character who makes a point to smith all of his own gear, I think that keeping an item's base appearance when I find it gives it a unique "found" feel to it.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong with not liking non-modifiable gear. However, the decision to allow them to be changed should be left in the hands of the developer. You wouldn't go into a dungeon and tell the developer to change it just because you don't like the way it looks, would you? The same is true for pieces of gear.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Nemesis 24 on February 02, 2019, 11:15:12 PM
There are problems with non-modifiable gear.  The street fighter monk gear is really quite silly.  But the helm of the bat is a crucially important bit of gear, especially with so many adversarial sneaks.  With the helmet so incredibly recognisable, it throws a weight of advantage on someone who already 'has' an advantage.  The fact it can be countered simply by standing still makes it even worse.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: The Prophet of Misinformation on February 03, 2019, 12:14:32 AM
Speaking purely from my design methodology (and not for the Dev team), I'm pro most items being modifiable. Surpassingly powerful items or those with rich histories I generally exclude. It diminishes some of an item's mystique when there's 50 different versions of the same item floating about. No particular comment to offer on the "meme" items given my own insufferable proclivity to add whatever the Hell I feel like adding, whenever I want to.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Dud_Goose on February 03, 2019, 01:49:53 PM
In the case of legendary or "one of a kind" items, I think non-moddable is alright.

In the case of reproductions or otherwise not one of a kind things, it makes sense to me that the artificer would be able to make adjustments.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: goldenelvensorceress on February 05, 2019, 12:00:14 PM
The only one I have seen myself is a Bikini.

I mean what is the point of having a bikini if everyone is just going to turn it into a dress or something...
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: SardineTheAncestor on February 05, 2019, 02:40:59 PM
I would ask the point of having a bikini in this time period in the first place, not to nitpick though.

Would this even be a problem if you could simply recolor the uniques?
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: goldenelvensorceress on February 05, 2019, 03:59:58 PM
Yes I don't know but there is an Bikini outfit in the loot.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: King Pickle on February 11, 2019, 05:29:04 PM
Not only do monks have to wears some silly underpants getup but they all have to hold that awkward looking practice baton. Fist fighting with out a long ivory cane? That would be weird.
Title: Re: Non moddable items (and why they suck)
Post by: Malvado on February 11, 2019, 08:02:07 PM

I feel like if you really wanted to argue it, you could make just about any item non-craftable by the whole "function" argument.  It seems like it was arbitrarily peppered in on about 30% of items it could apply to.

Maybe these items could be modifiable, but at a 2x cost increase to represent how difficult it would be to change the delicate nature of the item's complicated inner workings?


Could pick the most notorious items that suffer of this problematic and just do as Legion suggested above.