Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Green Monster on January 15, 2019, 11:01:14 PM
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I left 2 years ago. I came back because I REALLY missed the setting. I have to confess to being a bit disappointed where shields are concerned, though. A sword and shield is my favourite aesthetic.
I saw the Sheild Parry feat. I appreciate the thought, but it doesn't help. Why does it require 15 dex? It doesn't require a lot of coordination to block at 2 inch wide blade with a 2 foot wide shield. If a shield parry feat had an ability requirement, it should be 13 Strength (same as Power Attack). As it is, the shield parry feat is just throwing more love at dex builds which already get an awful lot of love on this server. Please drop the dex requirement.
Please remove the dex requirement from the Shield Parry feat, or lower it to 13 (same as Dodge feat) AND make the shield parry feat work ONLY with the smallest category of shields. Shield Parry feat (and Parry AC bonus in general) should not work with large shields and tower shields, those should be for non-parry and/or strength based builds.
Please reduce the weight of shields down to the more updated (and realistic*) NWN2 weights:
Small shield = 5 lbs
Medium Shield =7 lbs
Tower Shield = 19.4 lbs
*The Hall of Arms and Armor at the Metropolitan Museum of Art here in New York City has many fine examples of real medieval shields. As you can see here (https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/34.85/), a medium-sized shield roughly 2 feet tall and 1.5 feet across does indeed weigh about 7 lbs.
IF you do this, then those who can train with a shield can do so, and get a total of 1 ac (with enchantment) higher for their efforts than those who train parry without a shield (someone using a shield having higher defense than someone who doesn't? radical concept, right?). Those who don't have the skill points for parry (like clerics and paladins) can use a shield without the weight of it breaking their arms, but they can't get as high ac as someone who has trained, except temporarily with spells.
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Crafted shields are light, shield parry makes tower shields equivalent to bucklers in usefulness & you can throw a +4 varnish on it to make it the best thing to use for AC with the lowest dex & feat requirements...
It's in a good place right now, just need to build right for it.
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At one point they attempted to make the base AC of the shields higher to compensate for the whole thing. Sadly, it didn't work - while the shield itself had a higher base AC, the number didn't carry across to the PC, for whatever reason. It had to be dropped, but I can't recall what the solution was in its place.
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Crafted shields are light, shield parry makes tower shields equivalent to bucklers in usefulness & you can throw a +4 varnish on it to make it the best thing to use for AC with the lowest dex & feat requirements...
It's in a good place right now, just need to build right for it.
Shield Parry still require a 15 dex. We can't all be rogue/fighters with 16 each in str and dex and 8 charisma. There is zero reason why you would need 15 dex to block a sword with a 2 foot wide shield. If anything, you'd need strength. As I said, Shield Parry is just throwing more love on a build type that has always gotten too much love here.
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I'm inclined to agree. I dont think parrying with a shield requires any more dexterity than swinging a sword, which is determined by strength.
If I HAD to gate it, I'd put it behind Intelligence 11 OR Improved Parry. But otherwise I would not. Parrying with a shield currently has the same dex requirement as Two-Weapon Defense. It's obviously not even close to the same thing in terms of challenge.
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Shield is giving you a +9 AC bonus, two-handers heavy armoured folk cap out at a +4 Parry bonus.
I'd say they're in a good place. Base 15/15 str/dex at character generation is workable, next 5 points go into STR, and the benefit is +5 AC.
If you don't want to spend Dex, to increase your armour class, that's entirely your character choice, and I won't fault you for that, but it's really not that much of an attribute cost when you get +5 AC which is just enough after the right support for end-game conquering. I've been with a perfect group to Sithicus and it was hell, it's made me wish I took that extra point into Dex. 5 AC without sacrificing a large chunk of AB is totally worth it.
I might just do it at lvl 16 so my attribute spread is 18 15 14 14 10 10, even if I'm weapon focused in a Halberd, and keep a good shield in reserve. It's genuinely the tipping point after the right buffs that would make what was a difficult trial so, so much easier.
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While I have no thoughts on your suggestions themselves, consider that the 15 Dex requirement might not represent blocking attacks with the shield, but blocking attacks with your weapon in addition to the defense the shield provides (as represented by it's AC bonus) and without being hindered in this endeavour by it's bulk.
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Two years ago I had this discussion. Basically, people telling me I'm a complete madman to expect that someone who trains in using a shield should have significantly higher defense, without magic, enchantment, or varnishes, than someone who doesn't. Right now, as is, if you sacrifice your xp to enchant a shield you can get an ac exactly ONE higher than someone using bonetti's defense feats. ONE. If you don't employ magic, then your non-magical shield using ac is way worse than someone not using a shield. Worse than someone using two weapons and blocking attacks with their off-hand dagger. And here people are once again telling me that's ok and if I don't like it I should build a character with little to no points left over for charisma or intelligence or anything else. As if having one build type that gets the best defense and the best offense both is ok.
Well, it's not ok. It's not ok for someone to invest the same number of skill points and improved parry and skill focus parry and shield parry to train how to block attacks with a two foot piece of movable armor and STILL have lower defense than someone blocking with a dagger. It is just not ok.
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While I have no thoughts on your suggestions themselves, consider that the 15 Dex requirement might not represent blocking attacks with the shield, but blocking attacks with your weapon in addition to the defense the shield provides (as represented by it's AC bonus) and without being hindered in this endeavour by it's bulk.
Umm....blocking attacks is exactly what shields DO in the real world, both versions of nwn, and every server but this one. You would not be blocking with your weapon if you have a shield. That's why it's called a shield. It shields you from blows.
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I agree that the Dex requirement is too high, but many made the same point when the feat was introduced, so I'm not sure the Devs are going to be receptive to changing it. I would prefer 13 Str and 13 Dex as requirements.
The language of "without being hindered by its bulk" connotes to me strength more than dexterity both IRL and in NWN terms. PCs overcome encumbrance, after all, through their Str rather than Dex.
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The one concession I haven't seen mentioned is the Skill Point requirement for Parry you don't have to invest in with Shields. Albeit, its only one Skill you lose, its still something to consider.
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Quick question: What is shield parry, physically speaking?
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I always thought shields were more so for people who didnt want to invest in Parry, rather they be a priest who I dont think has the points to spare (or might not even be a class feature, never played priest), or other classes who didnt have the points to invest in Parry. Shield parry even now I thought was made to make bucklers/large shields more viable, since tower shields are fairly taxing on skill point penalties.
But, as a two hander boi, I think it makes sense as shields are much more for giving to people who dont know HOW to block a sword with their own. And, while one wouldn't hate to have one in duels, it makes sense that an individual (meaning if you come from a background where you went out on your own/ weren't in a tight unit) you might opt for lighter, less cumbersome ways of attack, hence the two hander exists. And while perhaps late game people without shields may rise higher (which I defer because I have never gotten a shieldbro up that far), a lot of people dont get to that far in the game, and besides that it means you can invest in other skills that parry boys cant.
And to be honest, if two handers/ no shields were completely nonviable as a defensive option, no one would ever had used two handers historically at all, which to me means that you should look at it in the perspective of what skill points can I invest in besides parry to punish those that have to put in hella parry points.
(Like antagonize, for example)
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Dev's got it right. You would need to be dextrous and strong to move that shield around with your hands, also footwork would come into play.
Definition of dexterity
1 : readiness and grace in physical activity especially : skill and ease in using the hands
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The basic blocking of sword blows is included in the ac the shield gives you. Using it to parry requires dexterity.
Also remember, the ability to avoid blows all together is also included in ac.
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You would need to be dextrous and strong to move that shield around with your hands, also footwork would come into play.
A PC's Dex modifier affects her parrying skill, which reflects how someone with "readiness and grace in physical activity especially" would be innately superior at it to begin with. Beyond that, however, it is a trained skill. Shield Parry likewise relies on training and improves the more the PC trains: "The character has learnt how to better parry blows with a shield. When fighting with a shield, for every five skill points in Parry the character's armor class is improved by +1."
The prerequisites for the feat, on the other hand, indicate a minimum ability necessary to learn this skill. IMO the minimum abilities to move a 45 lb tower shield or even a 15 lb large shield would be at least as reliant on strength. No matter your coordination or training, if you aren't strong, you won't be able to maneuver something heavy with great skill.
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It's important to remember that in the original Shield Parry update, Tower Shields were going to be boosted to base AC 4 to balance them up. Unfortunately that got dropped in the end because it was not technically feasible. It's a shame, and hopefully that will change; but in the interrim, I'd definitely argue that Tower Shields are lacking something.
For me, the annoying part of it is that Shields don't really feel distinguishable. Fighting with a buckler, a large shield, or a tower shield should be a completely different fighting style -- the first should be an extremely fast and agile warrior, the latter should be slow, stoic, and steady. It makes no sense for a buckler fighter to be harder to hit by a crossbow than a tower shield.
It would be nice if therefore tower shields could be given some specialisation, a reason to take them beyond the default leftover choice that you're a STR build with not enough points and Feats to put into Parry and INT. The most obvious direction to take this, IMO, is to leave bucklers as the "kings of melee combat" while making tower shields more potent against ranged attacks. Perhaps by giving them some immunity to Piercing; or perhaps eventually EE will give us more options to specialise Shields.
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As far as I know, shields alright have a percentage chance of blocking an incoming missile (i.e. arrow or bolt). I'd think the % changes with the shield size, but I couldn't find any precise numbers. However, I agree the advantage shields grant against ranged opponents could be something to tap into, like another feat working like Deflect Arrow for monks but for shields instead based on the size category and whatnot. That way would create more variety rather than focusing on AC.
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As far as I know, shields alright have a percentage chance of blocking an incoming missile (i.e. arrow or bolt). I'd think the % changes with the shield size, but I couldn't find any precise numbers.
This isn't quite true. There is a ''parried" message indicating that an arrow was parried but it's exactly the same as a 'miss', it's just letting you know that your shield AC contributed toward blocking the arrow as flavour text.
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Lot of people willfully missing the point and not reading the OP.
I never said anything about heavy shields and tower shields being part of the Shield Parry feat. I specifically said that they should NOT. Therefore the DEX requirement is excessive.
The statement that everyone against this keeps ignoring is that someone who uses a shield SHOULD have a significantly higher ac than someone who does not, without magic or enchantment, where parry skill and level are the same. That's what shields did in the real world. That's what they're for. That's why they were invented. Someone who prefers to forego two weapons or a two-handed, sacrificing a great deal of offense for more defense, should be able to do so. Freedom of playing style. Boosting defense vs other players instead of offense. Instead, here, there's one build that gets it all in terms of both offense and defense, and that's the two-weapon player.
Actually, you know what? I said all this two years ago. Nevermind.
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Hey, some of us are agreeing with you :D
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Hey, some of us are agreeing with you :D
Sorry. Just really frustrated that my favourite ic esthetic is a mechanical liability here and nowhere else, and not for any reason that makes any sense.
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Hey, some of us are agreeing with you :D
Sorry. Just really frustrated that my favourite ic esthetic is a mechanical liability here and nowhere else, and not for any reason that makes any sense.
It’s a tradeoff between Dex and Strength. If you don’t want to invest in Dexterity because you want more Strength or other stat then you’ll get less AC but in return you may dish out more damage.
The maximum AC a two hander can get is 6 from Parry but that’s if he uses leather armor. If he uses leather, to maximize his AC he’d need 22 Dex (2 AC from the armor, 6 from Dex). That’s with maximum Parry and one feat.
A two weapon build can get 9 AC total from Parry/feats but that’s once again in leather armor, so once again 22 Dex to optimize it, and at the cost of at least three feats and maximum Parry.
A tower shield build, without Parry, can go up to 7 AC with buffs on the shield regardless of armor. A tower shield with Shield Parry and maxing Parry could theoretically get 8 or 9 AC with buffs in a leather armor with 22 Dex.
A small shield build with Parry and leather, so once again 22 Dex, could get to 10 AC by maximizing Parry and taking Shield Parry.
So, yes, a tower shield build yields less AC than a small shield build or even a two weapon build but you don’t need to invest in Dex, Parry or feats, all things that you can then invest elsewhere. You still have a higher AC than a two hander who maximized Parry and had 22 Dex.
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I think a neat compromise would be to introduce a feat that allows Tower Shields to gain bonus AC when around other tower shields. I understand that an aura might be a bit intensive on server resources, but maybe something with charges that you can activate like Shrouded Dance. I can see the justification for smaller shields being more effective in single combat, but in a formation tower shields have real potential. Just my two cents :)
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Still no answer as to why someone with a dagger, or nothing at all, in their left hand can block better than someone with a shield. Or why it takes 15 dex to intercept a 2 inch wide sword with a 2 foot wide shield.
It's not a trade off. It's nonsensical catering to high dex builds. You don't get potentially more damage from not using two weapons, regardless of strength.
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Two handed sword 18 str 14 dex
AC from Parry and related feats = +6
Steel Greatsword 1-12 +1-6 (steel) +6 (1.5x str bonus) = 8-24, avg 16
4 attacks per round = avg 64 dmg per round
Bastard sword 18 str 16 dex, nothing in off hand
AC from Parry and related feats = +9 Winner: Defense category
Steel Bastard Sword 1-10 +1-6 (steel) +4 (str bonus) = 6-20, avg 13
4 Attacks per round = 52 dmg per round
Bastard sword 18 str 15 dex, shield in off hand
AC from Parry and shield and related feats +8 (the way the skill check penalties work, you lose 1 parry ac for heavy and 2 for tower, so you can only ever get total +8 no matter what size the shield is)
Steel Bastard Sword 1-10 +1-6 (steel) +4 (str bonus) = 6-20, avg 13
4 Attacks per round = 52 dmg per round
Bastard Sword and Short Sword 18 str 16 dex
AC from Parry and related feats = +8
Steel Bastard Sword 1-10 +1-6 (steel) +4 (str bonus) = 6-20, avg 13
main hand 4 attacks per round = 52 dmg
Steel Short Sword 1-6 +2 (steel) +2 (0.5 str bonus) = 5-10, avg 7.5
off hand 2 attacks per round = 15
avg 67 dmg per round Winner: Offense category
So, the only way someone with a shield can hope to get close to the same defense as someone with nothing in their off hand, or a dagger in the off hand, is to pump way too much points into dex and/or enchant the shield, losing a level to boost an item that they might drop and loose if they get killed.
This is not ok. This is broken.
Three things need to happen to fix this:
1) Remove the 15 dex requirement from Shield Parry. You don't have to be a ballet dancer to intercept a blade with a shield. That's why shields exist. A shield is a pretty big target, it's hard for your opponent not to hit it. That's the point of a shield: your opponent hits it instead of you.
2) Have Shield Parry feat reduce the parry penalty for using a shield by 3 (by granting +3 parry when a shield is equipped). This would make shields as follows when the character has Shield Parry feat: Light = no parry penalty, Heavy = -5 parry, Tower -10 parry. Remember, all a two-handed sword user has to do to get full parry bonus is get Improved Parry, which grants +4 parry.
3) Make Bonetti's Defense (love the name) work ONLY with light, finessable weapons. No one's fencing with a 10 pound bastard sword. I don't care how strong you are, wrists can't move something that bulky that fast.
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Once again you are forgetting the fact that to maximize the AC you need 22 AC. The only way to get 6 AC from Parry is to have 30 Parry and no ACP whatsoever. You also completely dismiss the major feat investment.
And you also forget varnishes and buffs for the shields, so your analysis is partial. We actually ran all possible scenarios to compare.
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Once again you are forgetting the fact that to maximize the AC you need 22 AC. The only way to get 6 AC from Parry is to have 30 Parry and no ACP whatsoever.
So that's not possible with a high dex build and leather armor? I'm pretty sure it's quite doable. Certain, in fact.
You also completely dismiss the major feat investment.
The ever-popular and over-powered rogue/fighter combo can spend all the required feats and still have plenty to spare.
And you also forget varnishes and buffs for the shields, so your analysis is partial. We actually ran all possible scenarios to compare.
I'm not forgetting temporary varnishes and buffs. I discount them because they're temporary, dispellable, and costly.
You're still not answering my initial questions.
Why can someone with a dagger, or nothing at all, in their left hand block better than someone with a shield? Why does it takes 15 dex to intercept a 2 inch wide sword with a 2 foot wide shield?
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I think that your answer has been stated, it's just not one that satisfies you. I do remember the old thread about this which I believe was over a year ago. I think if the developers agreed with how you'd like to see things that there likely would have been a change that reflected that agreement between then and now.
The answer to your question appears to be, quite simply, that this is how it's currently done on POTM. Whether or not that may change in the future is hard to say, but it's been pretty clearly stated that it is not changing currently.
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The answer to your question appears to be, quite simply, that this is how it's currently done on POTM.
Ah, "because I said so" then. Right. Can I get an official answer from an actual dev?
Why can someone with a dagger, or nothing at all, in their left hand block better than someone with a shield? Why does it takes 15 dex to intercept a 2 inch wide sword with a 2 foot wide shield?
Still waiting for an official answer on that.
I think a sensible person would agree that the 15 dex requirement needs to go for BOTH reasons of immersion and reasons of balance. From an immersion standpoint, that shield should be doing more to block blows than a dagger. From a balance standpoint, there's already enough love for high-dex builds ( Two Weapon Defense series of feats, Bonetti's Defense series of feats). Shield Parry should be the LOW dex defensive build option.
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Still waiting for an official answer on that.
You need to moderate your aggressiveness here, or we'll just close the thread.
The answer, which is fairly self-evident is that in D&D armor class represents a lot of things. It is a general measure of "difficult to hit-ness." Someone with dexterity dodges; someone with a shield blocks. It represents also such intangibles as presence of mind (monk) and the durability of one's skin (dragon disciple). Trying to get overmuch into the physical mechanics isn't particularly useful for this reason.
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I'm not being aggressive, or rather, not intending to be. I'm just frustrated that there's so little for builds that can't invest in dex because they need the points for cha, int, wis, etcetera. Elsewhere, low dex and heavy armor vs high dex and lighter armor are comparable builds. Here, not. Why does shield parry require 15 dex? Why? It's hard NOT to intercept a sword with a shield. You'd have to actually turn round the other way because the shield is on the left arm, which is your opponent's sword side, and the shield is two feet across.
All I'm asking is ditch the 15 dex requirement on Shield Parry. People with 15 dex can get two weapon defense and all the associated feats, can get two out of three of the Bonetti's Defense feats (and are only 1 dex away from all 3). Please, just remove the dex requirement from Shield Parry. Please. Make it the low dex build option.
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I'm not being aggressive, or rather, not intending to be. I'm just frustrated that there's so little for builds that can't invest in dex because they need the points for cha, int, wis, etcetera. Elsewhere, low dex and heavy armor vs high dex and lighter armor are comparable builds. Here, not. Why does shield parry require 15 dex? Why? It's hard NOT to intercept a sword with a shield. You'd have to actually turn round the other way because the shield is on the left arm, which is your opponent's sword side, and the shield is two feet across.
All I'm asking is ditch the 15 dex requirement on Shield Parry. People with 15 dex can get two weapon defense and all the associated feats, can get two out of three of the Bonetti's Defense feats (and are only 1 dex away from all 3). Please, just remove the dex requirement from Shield Parry. Please. Make it the low dex build option.
First of all, to get the three Two Weapon Defense feats, you need 19 Dex, same as Bonetti's Defense. Please ensure you actually research the facts before stating them or including them in your analysis.
We have looked at the numbers and balanced the feats accordingly. You may disagree with it, despite my different points, and that's your prerogative but we have no plans to change the feats right now because they work properly. The only change that may happen eventually, as aporg mentioned, is raising the base AC of tower shields to 4, if Beamdog fixes that bug.
And regardless of intent, aggressive and disrespectful tone is not tolerated here, so I encourage you to consider Arawn's feedback before posting or responding.
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This thread seems to be going nowhere but to toxicity.
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Well, thank all of you for your time. I do apologize for any ill-feeling my frustrations have caused.
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Stance hasn't changed since the last thread.
Very disappointed the tower shield changes aren't in yet (if there even was any). This was their (alleged) change to +4 AC.
Disappointed in general there's literally no point in using a shield other than to save feats and even then, unless you have a cleric or endless stream of varnishes, or get an enchanted shield, you still don't get anywhere near the AC a DEX based character does (or even as quickly OR reliably).
Problem still easily solved as to give them % immunity to damage types or unique functions through feats.
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Stance hasn't changed since the last thread.
Very disappointed the tower shield changes aren't in yet (if there even was any). This was their (alleged) change to +4 AC.
Disappointed in general there's literally no point in using a shield other than to save feats and even then, unless you have a cleric or endless stream of varnishes, or get an enchanted shield, you still don't get anywhere near the AC a DEX based character does (or even as quickly OR reliably).
Problem still easily solved as to give them % immunity to damage types or unique functions through feats.
What I want to play, the archetype that I find most visually appealing, is a low-dex, high strength, high defense, sword and shield type character. A build that is perfectly viable (though costly equipment) everywhere but here. Here, enemies are balanced against dex-based ac that a shield user can't reach. I decided last time I brought this subject up that since what I wanted to play wasn't a viable build here this wasn't the server for me. I was correct. Shame though, it's my favourite setting. Not the only one I like, but my favourite. Good luck to you, and have fun.
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I played a low dex tower shield wielding combat build for several years. At the end the character was not only one of the most feared PvP combatants, but also one of the strongest frontline characters of the server. In short, this reaction is frankly kneejerk. To call a tower shield wielding low dex character unviable because of a potential single point of AC (which I assure is seldom the case) is a bit silly.
As EO has stated, it requires a base dexterity of 22. In truth, this is -very- rare due to the sheer need for split stats. I'd be surprised if anyone took the build he mentioned, even with all the feats, as frankly, its only truly powerful at end stage levels.
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I always felt like the shield parry required builds were too finicky to make work. You'd really have to invest and build for it with what feels like a minimal turn-around, and ultimately sub-optimal offensive prowess. I've always felt that one-handed dex builds with a rapier, or two-handed dex builds with dual-weapon defense landed their hits more, and ended up with better AC.
..And from my vain aesthetic standpoints, I've always like that this server allows you to now have a character who just uses a sword, or uses a sword and a dagger to parry with. It's incredibly satisfying from a historical standpoint and from an aesthetic standpoint. Shields? Are almost always ugly, especially the tower shield models. Large shields are OK, and none of the small shields seem to actually resemble bucklers, which turns me off of investing in a character with an awkwardly ugly item, not to mention the mechanical hindrances.
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One consideration to keep in mind is that POTM has fundamentally altered parry from the original NWN implementation:
Parry allows the character to block incoming attacks and make spectacular counterattacks....
Special: Wearing armor may incur a penalty to the roll. If the parry is successful and the difference between the roll and the DC is ten points or greater, a counterattack occurs.
When parry involves making a "spectacular counterattack," dexterity as a modifier and having an armor check penalty make more sense. But on POTM parry skill equals only armor class. Consequently, that a tower shield has an ACP of -10 means the wielder is effectively nullifying two points of AC that might have been gained through parry. This is 2/3 of the benefit of a 40-pound item.
That seems pretty unbalanced. Full plate gives 8 AC and incurs only a -8 ACP, nor does it require giving up employing the off-hand to some other purpose.
When parry is a combat mode that provides additional offense (a counterattack), then the shield in the off-hand incurring a penalty is plausible, but when parry is purely blocking incoming blows, then it is pretty counter-intuitive that having a shield makes this more difficult. That is the issue I have and is IMO at the root of the OP's.
If lowering the Dex requirement for Shield Parry won't be considered by Devs, I wonder whether there is any way to make ACP no longer apply to the parry skill?
Another idea for making tower shields better per "unique functions through feats" is granting those using tower shields a greater size category when receiving and attempting knockdowns. I imagine having a portable "door" in front of you would be comparably advantageous to being a little bigger in those situations.
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From what I recall though, the shield parry feats weren't designed with tower shields in mind. They were put in specifically to make lighter shields more viable. Before they were added, the only real reason to use a small or large shield over a tower shield was purely weight considerations... meaning characters that don't have the strength to lug around such a massive shield. From a practical standpoint, that makes sense to me. While a big heavy tower shield should cover you more effectively than a smaller shield (thus offering more base AC than its lighter counterparts would) it would still be really hard to manoeuvre with any real finesse (which is what I assumed the DEX requirements for the shield parry feats represented).
I think of the shield parry feats as being more than just standing still and blocking an attack, but rather the ability and skill to deflect a blow and maybe even create an opening to counter-attack in the process, something which I feel would be far more difficult to do with a 45-lb shield. If you take none of the shield parry feats, then a small or large shield offers you less AC than a tower shield would. However, with those feats it's like you've learned to use your agility to become more effective with a lighter and smaller shield and thus are better at defending yourself with them. As stated before, AC is a representation of your ability to defend yourself and avoid being hit rather than just how much armour you're wearing.
All that being said, this is just my opinion and interpretation of the feats and I could be completely mistaken. I'm sure there could be a few feats that aren't DEX-based added that don't tie in to the shield parry line directly that caters to non-DEX builds, though. You could have a feat for tower shields that lets you add your STR bonus to your AC when holding one, to simulate the fact that it's better-suited to straight up blocking and taking a hit rather than deflection. Or you could have a feat that makes you more resistant to knockdowns when you're holding a tower shield, since they're essentially a small wall that you can brace yourself and hide behind, if that's even possible without changing size categories which I know isn't viable. Just my two cents on the matter.
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Two handed sword 18 str 14 dex
AC from Parry and related feats = +6
Steel Greatsword 1-12 +1-6 (steel) +6 (1.5x str bonus) = 8-24, avg 16
4 attacks per round = avg 64 dmg per round
Bastard sword 18 str 16 dex, nothing in off hand
AC from Parry and related feats = +9 Winner: Defense category
Steel Bastard Sword 1-10 +1-6 (steel) +4 (str bonus) = 6-20, avg 13
4 Attacks per round = 52 dmg per round
Bastard sword 18 str 15 dex, shield in off hand
AC from Parry and shield and related feats +8 (the way the skill check penalties work, you lose 1 parry ac for heavy and 2 for tower, so you can only ever get total +8 no matter what size the shield is)
Steel Bastard Sword 1-10 +1-6 (steel) +4 (str bonus) = 6-20, avg 13
4 Attacks per round = 52 dmg per round
Bastard Sword and Short Sword 18 str 16 dex
AC from Parry and related feats = +8
Steel Bastard Sword 1-10 +1-6 (steel) +4 (str bonus) = 6-20, avg 13
main hand 4 attacks per round = 52 dmg
Steel Short Sword 1-6 +2 (steel) +2 (0.5 str bonus) = 5-10, avg 7.5
off hand 2 attacks per round = 15
avg 67 dmg per round Winner: Offense category
I think your calculations may not be fully exact for dual-wielding, as they are not factoring in the effect of decreased AB. In practice, two handed weapons tend to deal the highest damage while dual wielding tends to deal the least unless you're in a situation where your AB is decently high compared to opponent's AC.
As previously stated, at one point the intention was to increase tower shield base AC to 4, but that was unfortunately not feasible.
I understand that you feel pretty strongly about this, but, I've also had shield-wearing characters and I do like the visual idea of a templar glad in full armor, a bastard sword ready to strike from the cover of a tower shield.. As is, while you're correct that this might not be mechanically the strongest build, in the end, what we're talking of are differences of a few points of AC at most. The concept is not made or broken by such a minor difference in its power. You can compensate for "weaknesses" in a build by simply being fluent with the game mechanics and gameplay. A few points of AC, AB or damage should not be a deal-breaker.
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Two handed sword 18 str 14 dex
AC from Parry and related feats = +6
Steel Greatsword 1-12 +1-6 (steel) +6 (1.5x str bonus) = 8-24, avg 16
4 attacks per round = avg 64 dmg per round
Bastard sword 18 str 16 dex, nothing in off hand
AC from Parry and related feats = +9 Winner: Defense category
Steel Bastard Sword 1-10 +1-6 (steel) +4 (str bonus) = 6-20, avg 13
4 Attacks per round = 52 dmg per round
Bastard sword 18 str 15 dex, shield in off hand
AC from Parry and shield and related feats +8 (the way the skill check penalties work, you lose 1 parry ac for heavy and 2 for tower, so you can only ever get total +8 no matter what size the shield is)
Steel Bastard Sword 1-10 +1-6 (steel) +4 (str bonus) = 6-20, avg 13
4 Attacks per round = 52 dmg per round
Bastard Sword and Short Sword 18 str 16 dex
AC from Parry and related feats = +8
Steel Bastard Sword 1-10 +1-6 (steel) +4 (str bonus) = 6-20, avg 13
main hand 4 attacks per round = 52 dmg
Steel Short Sword 1-6 +2 (steel) +2 (0.5 str bonus) = 5-10, avg 7.5
off hand 2 attacks per round = 15
avg 67 dmg per round Winner: Offense category
So there's a few issues with your estimations I'd like to see addressed.
1. Nowhere in here have you spoken about armor choice to maximize you AC for a given dexterity. With each armor choice there will be additional ACP (unless we are to assume all three cases are using leather or below armor each of which would horribly unoptimal.)
2. The actual ACP from armor will be greater than you have presented and will affect the maximum ac you can receive from Parry further skewing your assumed numbers.
3. While you might be able to achieve better AC from parry by using leather armor (if that was in fact your intent and not just an oversight) your overall AC will be far, far lower. You should be presenting a holistic picture of a given scenarios AC.
4. As Exordium mentioned you would be wise to include the AB of each given scenario and factor in probability to hit in several situations. (High AC/low AC targets and how quickly you achieve time to kill which is a better representation of build power rather than just DPS assuming all attacks hit. )
5. You failed to include critical hits in your average DPS. (The numbers you have provided are lower than actual) assuming we hit every attack.
6. In your fourth example your given character with 16 dex does not meet the minimum requirements for improved two weapon defense which you assume they would take. Even assuming 30 parry in leather armor this character would be only be able to achieve 7 bonus ac (+6 from parry and +1 from two weapon defense.)
7. Last, I'm also confused why you didn't have the fourth scenario take greater two weapon defense for a +3 bonus. (dex requirement of 19 btw) If you're trying to portray the theoretical maximum for each build type you should be factoring that in as well.
I suggest you review our wiki (http://nwnravenloft.wikia.com/wiki/Ravenloft:_Prisoners_of_the_Mist_Wikia) for additional information on the parry system, Bonetti's Defense line of feats, Two weapon defense line of feat and the shield parry feat. I'd also suggest using the Free-Advice channel on discord for insight into maximizing a characters AC and damage output. I'm sure one of our experienced players will be more than happy to help you.
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Seems a bit odd that the best way to get a high AC is to not use a shield. A little counter-intuitive, but not my cup of tea anyway!
Of course, you could go super radical and scrap the whole system and do what they did on Legacy of Britain:
AC goes up with each level (though the level cap was 8, with only feats coming after that). Perhaps on here that AC bonus could come from Parry so long as you don't use ACP from shields.. which is.. again extremely weird and counter-intuitive.
Armor doesn't add to your AC: it gives % damage reduction instead based on damage type. Some armor is good for certain damage types.
Shields give AC based on your ability scores and what you want your shield for:
Small shields give up to 3 AC if you've got high dex, though less if your dex is low and have better offensive capabilities (feats like shieldbashing),
Large shields have less offensive capability, but scale with strength up to like +4 AC.
Tower shields can't be used as weapons, but scale up with strength to around +5 AC and this goes up for each person beside you with a tower shield, including a bit of extra % damage reduction, so you can make shield walls and really hold the baddies off while your support peppers them.
This system gave high dex builds by far the highest AC bonuses finishing out around 28, even with small shields and bucklers, but strength based and heavily armored shield fighters were solid tanks had decent AC but who relied on absorbing damage. 2-handed warriors were low AC, but depended on absorbing enough damage to drop whomever they were fighting before being killed.
Because of low level caps, you could never get your AC beyond 28 or 29, making these fighters good skirmishers who were fast, but still hittable by other 8th level characters, great for small battles and hit-and-runs. 2-handers probably had a slight edge in duels, but heavier shield fighters were the best at holding off hordes of monsters while their support mowed them down.
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Necro spell animate thread has been cast.
Best way to get a high AC overall is to have such a high Dex modifier that it exceeds the armor check.
Otherwise, the Max AC you get out of parry (+6) alongside 3x feats (+3) is equal to a shield with shield parry and greater magical varnish. +3+2+4.
Except in this latter option you aren't investing 19+ dexterity and get to retain some strength damage. Don't worry about it.
The suggested change in mechanics you've listed would result in an overhaul of character builds and enemy creatures. Every stat would have to be adjusted. For everything.
Don't worry about this thread, let it sleep.
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Let me second this--this thread long ago ran its course. Locked.