Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Dante101 on December 31, 2018, 05:33:43 PM

Title: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Dante101 on December 31, 2018, 05:33:43 PM
As suggested in the rather heated Discord chat earlier today, I'm looking to move the discussion on the recent updates to herbalism to the forums, here -- where people can write out their thoughts on the changes.

I'll start out coming in a little hot.  This felt (and I know, "it's a feeling", but it's my take on it) like something that was hastily changed with very limited community feedback and testing prior to such.  From what little I've gathered since the change went effective today, it appears the team wanted to bring herbalism in line with other crafts (to where max DC is 70), based on some calculation between spell caster level and spell level.  Here's why I say that's bad:

For starters, former master herbalists now have become completely inept regarding crafting certain high level DC potions (such as Heal, or Ethereal Visage).  They are literally uncraftable day 1 of the change because the DC's shifted by over 20 on each of these potions (one was shifted by 35!).  And it appears that there are very limited number of other potions that can be made to bridge the experience and crafting level gaps to gain access to these top tier DC potions.

Next, those who have crafted all those high DC potions previously now find themselves sitting on a stockpile (potentially) of very, very valuable potions that the market no longer has access to.  At least until some soul has managed to bridge the aforementioned crafting level gap.  At which point, that lucky player will have ownership of the market for a little while.

Finally... This craft isn't the same as something like Smithing or Woodworking.  Moving to a DC 70 seems excessive and unnecessary, just so someone can say "hey, we standardized the DC ranges!"  The system seemed to work just fine as is, and seems to me like a completely unneeded change.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Edward on December 31, 2018, 05:36:16 PM
I think the DC for Ghostly Visage should be lowered a tad.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Destinysdesire on December 31, 2018, 05:41:08 PM
I personally find the crafting system a bit too over zealous. When you cater to the 1% then you set a standard that players that can devote hours and hours to the server at any one time are better then all other players. Meaning that 1% is going to gain far more benefit from the server then any other player. My personal opinion stands that the value of the 1% of players should never overvalue that of the 99% of players that cannot devote that high amount of time into a game. Oh and by the way, this is coming from the 1%.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: BattleCupcake on December 31, 2018, 05:41:26 PM
I think the DC for Ghostly Visage should be lowered a tad.

Aside from anything else, given this potion is useless past the level 3~6 range, I agree. It should be accessible to lowbies.

I don't have many other complaints with these changes as of now.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: zDark Shadowz on December 31, 2018, 05:54:06 PM
It took me two minutes at a cauldron to work out what to do to level up, it's fine.

Edit: And one small run for herbs to confirm it all.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Salty Tears on December 31, 2018, 05:57:05 PM
Herbalism needed a change, but this was not the change it needed.

Why did this change happen?

People were grinding BAGS and BAGS full of heal potions for pvp/pve. ONLY PROBLEM IS that this is only like 5 or 6 players who play 10+ hours a day doing this who have the time whilst everyone else is working or in college or school- having you know, an actual life. They upped the dcs to discourage mass production of herbs by upping the dc to flipping 70 something. Problem is, no normal players with normal lives can EVER match that dc because we do not have the time to grind that much because the xp gain is so slow- where as players who play for 10+ hours a day can literally just grind out those dcs and ultimately continue to mass produce before anyone else does.

Mind you, getting to that dc will literally take years with the current amount of xp you gain from potion making past level 34-35 herbalism. It's the slowest freaking grind ever. My character will be level 20 before I reach that high a dc of herbalism.

Essentially, they are punishing the playerbase - and specific builds like fighters- for a small group of people doing dumb things.


This is why we can't have nice things.


Why is it bad?

People with real life jobs/school are hurt significantly. It rewards players who were the reason for this change. It will HURT the economy ig badly because it will cause HUGE inflation prices on these kinds of potions. It's unreasonable for anyone with limited time during their day to play. It's unrealistic. It does not make the server harder or scarier, it makes the server more annoying and unfun to actually play. It's fun to get scared. It's not fun to get a headache.


What can we do instead of this terrible change?


Well, since we're already taking inspiration from Arelith devs
-we can put a time limit between heal potion uses. That is, if you use it before the time limit is up- the potion/spell will not work. Arelith does this same exact thing with time stop, and I know the code exists.

-We could also nerf the heal tonic by a little bit. Enough to not make them insane, but not too much to make them useless.

-Or, my favorite, literally just make one of the ingredients a new flower from sithicus. Because then there will be an actual reason to go to the hardest dungeon on the server or actually have some risk involved to make this potion. That way you don't have people with no job or schooling just grinding these potions out in mass. Because they'll be too scared to actually go to Sithicus and grab some herbs.

IN CONCLUSION,
This is literally just trying to put a bandaid on an open, gapping wound and ripping it off. It does not help. It does not work. And it punishes players with reasonable lives because of maybe a small handful of players who do this.

Please change this.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Destinysdesire on December 31, 2018, 06:03:20 PM
Herbalism needed a change, but this was not the change it needed.

Why did this change happen?

People were grinding BAGS and BAGS full of heal potions for pvp/pve. ONLY PROBLEM IS that this is only like 5 or 6 players who play 10+ hours a day doing this who have the time whilst everyone else is working or in college or school- having you know, an actual life. They upped the dcs to discourage mass production of herbs by upping the dc to flipping 70 something. Problem is, no normal players with normal lives can EVER match that dc because we do not have the time to grind that much because the xp gain is so slow- where as players who play for 10+ hours a day can literally just grind out those dcs and ultimately continue to mass produce before anyone else does.

Mind you, getting to that dc will literally take years with the current amount of xp you gain from potion making past level 34-35 herbalism. It's the slowest freaking grind ever. My character will be level 20 before I reach that high a dc of herbalism.

Essentially, they are punishing the playerbase - and specific builds like fighters- for a small group of people doing dumb things.


This is why we can't have nice things.


Why is it bad?

People with real life jobs/school are hurt significantly. It rewards players who were the reason for this change. It will HURT the economy ig badly because it will cause HUGE inflation prices on these kinds of potions. It's unreasonable for anyone with limited time during their day to play. It's unrealistic. It does not make the server harder or scarier, it makes the server more annoying and unfun to actually play. It's fun to get scared. It's not fun to get a headache.


What can we do instead of this terrible change?


Well, since we're already taking inspiration from Arelith devs
-we can put a time limit between heal potion uses. That is, if you use it before the time limit is up- the potion/spell will not work. Arelith does this same exact thing with time stop, and I know the code exists.

-We could also nerf the heal tonic by a little bit. Enough to not make them insane, but not too much to make them useless.

-Or, my favorite, literally just make one of the ingredients a new flower from sithicus. Because then there will be an actual reason to go to the hardest dungeon on the server or actually have some risk involved to make this potion. That way you don't have people with no job or schooling just grinding these potions out in mass. Because they'll be too scared to actually go to Sithicus and grab some herbs.

IN CONCLUSION,
This is literally just trying to put a bandaid on an open, gapping wound and ripping it off. It does not help. It does not work. And it punishes players with reasonable lives because of maybe a small handful of players who do this.

Please change this.

Literally wish there was a like button, this is exactly my argument but much better worded. Again playing to the 1% of the server is a bad thing.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: BattleCupcake on December 31, 2018, 06:07:15 PM
-Or, my favorite, literally just make one of the ingredients a new flower from sithicus. Because then there will be an actual reason to go to the hardest dungeon on the server or actually have some risk involved to make this potion. That way you don't have people with no job or schooling just grinding these potions out in mass. Because they'll be too scared to actually go to Sithicus and grab some herbs.

Not willing to assert why this change was made in the first place, as I'm not on the Dev team. But from your post, this is a decent suggestion. +1



Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: aprogressivist on December 31, 2018, 06:09:46 PM
Not played through these changes yet, but I'll observe that one effect of this change (on top of requiring more work to grind potions) will be to "spread out" the grind path of recipes. This will mean that your Ability modifiers will be more important to get you through the DC jumps between craft recipes.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Hedgewife on December 31, 2018, 06:10:48 PM
ICly how do we explain this?
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: H on December 31, 2018, 06:12:45 PM
In regards to the Economics of this, the factors required to actually acquire these potions have been greatly expanded as well since the chances of successful crafting are lower. This inflates the prices of herbs, which in turn inflates the prices of potions. As such, players will need to find other ways to make significant volumes of gold just to keep up with where they previously were.

As a result, the needs of other materials will be taking a hit too. Casual players cannot keep up with these changes, and will not be able to achieve mid-tier herbalism, let alone mastery. This is limitations upon roleplay opportunities for players as well. If someone comes in wanting to play a potion maker, even a half-decent one, they will be forced to spend at an absurd amount of time for that to fit, regardless of the character's class level.

The difficulty of basic potions for lower level players is now out of reach, and stratifies the mid/high and low-level players which already has a big enough divide.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Destinysdesire on December 31, 2018, 06:22:56 PM
The other problem is...buying healing on this server is hard as hell already if your not an Ezrite and can buy your own scrolls of healing and use them. They are rarely sold, getting knuckles can be a bloody nightmare, and crafting them is hell as it was. If the goal is to drive away players...it might work. Arelith is making this mistake too, Lets make everything harder to cater to the 1% of players who have unlimited time on their hands, and weather or not Arelith wants to admit it, they ARE infact bleeding player numbers. I know of at least 20 players who have quit Arelith in the past month. Because they are doing things like this.
Title: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Mereyn on December 31, 2018, 06:26:54 PM
Although I've not been in the loop of this whole playing warehouse with consumable items minigame that PotM prominently features;
having had access to the Church of Ezra clerical scroll inventory in the past, I never felt the urge to spend gold on scrolls, let alone the healing ones.
Given this recent change it might be cheaper however, so it might be true in the future. (As a late note, it has always been considered an abuse of exploits to buy the ridiculously cheap healing scrolls from said inventory in the past. They cost quite a bit now, too.)
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: aprogressivist on December 31, 2018, 06:28:47 PM
Holee carp. *oggles some of the DCs*

I'll say this much, the days of the herbalist pocket mage are probably over... :D
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: MAB77 on December 31, 2018, 06:30:20 PM
A lot of the comments here are the result of emotions, which I totally understand. Feedback is important and we hope you'll keep forwarding them. Though I urge you to take a step back and try the system as it is now for a while before claiming this is the worse change ever. You are likely to discover there is still a lot you can accomplish and that it is even easier now for newcomers to the craft to get into it.

There will be a more thoughtful reply from the Dev team soon as to why we felt the change was important.

Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: aprogressivist on December 31, 2018, 06:34:49 PM
I gotta say, I do find the logic behind some of these DCs to be unclear.

Ghostly Visages are now about where the Heal potions were before; but that's a level 2 spell. Meanwhile, a lot of the old regular buffing spells were raised a mere couple of DC points -- despite also being level 2 spells. That's a massive DC gap for level 2 spells.

I fully support any spell of level 4+ being incredibly high DC -- those shouldn't even be produced as potions in DnD. But high DCs on level 1 - 3 spells are probably too much.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Dante101 on December 31, 2018, 06:35:16 PM
A lot of the comments here are the result of emotions, which I totally understand. Feedback is important and we hope you'll keep forwarding them. Though I urge you to take a step back and try the system as it is now for a while before claiming this is the worse change ever. You are likely to discover there is still a lot you can accomplish and that it is even easier now for newcomers to the craft to get into it.

There will be a more thoughtful reply from the Dev team soon as to why we felt the change was important.

We're outlining things that we have concerns with. Naturally, we will try it - but we want you to hear us.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Destinysdesire on December 31, 2018, 06:39:00 PM
A lot of the comments here are the result of emotions, which I totally understand. Feedback is important and we hope you'll keep forwarding them. Though I urge you to take a step back and try the system as it is now for a while before claiming this is the worse change ever. You are likely to discover there is still a lot you can accomplish and that it is even easier now for newcomers to the craft to get into it.

There will be a more thoughtful reply from the Dev team soon as to why we felt the change was important.

Mine isn't emotional based, I had no strong investment in the Herbalisim mainly because I feel the crafting system is already entirely broken, the server crafting system prides itself on a crafting system that can take 2 years plus to actually be anything decent, but the average char survival rate is generally closer to six months give or take. Secondly using the stat system is just totally broken to begin with. Having wisdom and con should not make you better at a craft then someone with Str and Int. Im sorry that's just broken as heck and caters to specific builds to minmax crafting.

The problem is the server loves to cater to players who like me have no life outside the game. Can sit here all day and max out crap, but if your in school, work, have a full time job, well your basically screwed for being comparable to anyone that doesn't have to do all those for then next 3-5 years, and by then, that char is likely gone. It doesn't make the server scary, it doesn't make it fun, it doesn't add to the atmosphere. When EVERY single aspect of the server is a grind...it takes AWAY from the server, bogs it down, and makes it frustrating and boring to the point people would rather go back to work then spend the next 18 months trying to get to the same point the player that's spent the last month just got to.

Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: zDark Shadowz on December 31, 2018, 06:40:38 PM
With the way XP DCs scale it should theoretically take the same amount of effort getting to 65ish as it took to get from 1 to 34, dw too much, just buy more herbs from newbs who know what to look for.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: aprogressivist on December 31, 2018, 06:55:38 PM
Nah, it will take more effort. The optimal "grind path" is more diluted, meaning it will be harder to combine higher DC recipes to grind that XP. But I expect that it requiring more effort is the intent.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Audric Lacroix on December 31, 2018, 08:36:59 PM
I'm afraid that this feels semi knee jerk over reaction. A change was needed, but not this one.
Title: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Mereyn on January 01, 2019, 01:48:17 AM
Look on the bright side, low level characters who slave away collecting herbs will now be making more money since the prices will be adjusted.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: DM Tarokka on January 01, 2019, 02:13:05 AM
As some of you know I spend some periods on characters and I have two almost max level multicrafters. So, let's say, I speak with some insight on this matter.

Since its implementation ten years ago, herbalism has been a great pivot for many things. For instance economy: selling herbs or potions for the first levels can be extremely useful and quite fast as a way to gather money for equipment or else. It has led also to some RP stories, with rivalties, friendships and else born by a cauldron or while picking herbs. It has also allowed, in time and with some longer time-span, the acquisition for some characters of  some spell-like abilities which has allowed either to replace a caster in a party or to wholly solo some dungeons. This is why, for instance, apart my two multicrafters all the characters I've played (all but one) have reached some 20-30 levels in herbalism, and it was not really because I purposedly tried to do that, but because unlike other crafts the materials for herbalism is something you find while travelling here and there. Furthermore herbalism deals with a consumable type of equipment, thus there will always be demand and use of it, whereas once a character has bought a specific sword, bow or armour won't buy a new one in a long time unless some accident happens.

Yet, other crafts have DCs going up to 70 while herbalism used to have 40 as a peak, just in terms of overall balancing I reckon this change was long due. I'm pretty sure that if some DCs result not well balanced our developers will tweak things (it has happened several times in the past, I don't see why should there be a problem it wouldn't be fixed now). On the IC aspect of the matter, one can interpret it as they wish, considering the most "knowing" characters are aware that which happens in the Mists can change suddenly (I mean whole nations vanish or move, let alone if some material can change its behaviour).

I understand those who thought having arrived to a point where failure couldn't happen now are upset. That will happen also to my characters, call me mad, but I'm glad for it because it means there is a new challenge to face. Last thing: crafting, in general, can be time consuming and requires dedication, but when well thought is a different source for RP. I'm confident in time this change will be appreciated by most.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: buyonegetonefree on January 01, 2019, 03:03:00 AM
-Or, my favorite, literally just make one of the ingredients a new flower from sithicus. Because then there will be an actual reason to go to the hardest dungeon on the server or actually have some risk involved to make this potion. That way you don't have people with no job or schooling just grinding these potions out in mass. Because they'll be too scared to actually go to Sithicus and grab some herbs.

Not willing to assert why this change was made in the first place, as I'm not on the Dev team. But from your post, this is a decent suggestion. +1

It's already there,  such herb was added in the update where plenty of new potions were added.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: FinalHeaven on January 01, 2019, 04:01:33 AM
Resetting the -5 to recipes would be horrendously unfair to the people who have already dedicated time to learning them.  New players simply need to go through the same process everyone else did.

That being said, large gaps between DCs should probably be filled somehow.  It is also a bit strange how something like Ghostly Visage got changed so drastically.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: aprogressivist on January 01, 2019, 08:02:01 AM
It's more unfair to make us lose recipes we invested time and resources into unlocking. New players will have to put in more work, yes, but they do not lose anything invested. You are saying existing players should lose part of their investment with no refund.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: derkotushka on January 01, 2019, 09:06:23 AM
There is nothing bad in grinding. Someone just likes it. Someone not.
Herbalism compare to other craftings(especially smith one!), in my opinion, was almost balanced well. Except of HEAL potion.
Herbalism crafting have own "grind" part at start when low stat character grinding light healing potions. And then character slowly, with not wasting huge amount of time(compare to smithing and with MUCH less waste of gold) reaches other most useful potions and gains herbalism levels.(invisibility, haste, deathward, negative energy shield, etc)

I like what devs added more potions and such but for this DC changes I will blame only HEAL potion.
In many-many dungeon runs it is very few times when character needed use this potions. Critical healing potions makes their good work and already player need waste good amount of time to get many critical healing potions.  It would be better just without heal-potions.

I agree with few posts, what DCs need to adjust and balance well, and perhaps change spell levels on this potions too.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: haifisch021 on January 01, 2019, 12:48:29 PM
A lot of the comments here are the result of emotions, which I totally understand. Feedback is important and we hope you'll keep forwarding them. Though I urge you to take a step back and try the system as it is now for a while before claiming this is the worse change ever. You are likely to discover there is still a lot you can accomplish and that it is even easier now for newcomers to the craft to get into it.

There will be a more thoughtful reply from the Dev team soon as to why we felt the change was important.

With all due respect MAB, that is pretty condescending of you to say. Emotions aside it is pretty clear that this change was a poorly made one. Before you dismiss the concerns of the community, I would advise you take a moment to actually address these concerns.

I have a lot of respect for you and the rest of the Dev team, and I appreciate what you do. I also understand that kickback will come with most changes and that it is important to be steadfast in the face of opposition. However, it's unfair to completely ignore everything that has been said in this thread. I hope that in this more thoughtful reply you will take the time to address the concerns of the community.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Dante101 on January 01, 2019, 12:54:52 PM
A lot of the comments here are the result of emotions, which I totally understand. Feedback is important and we hope you'll keep forwarding them. Though I urge you to take a step back and try the system as it is now for a while before claiming this is the worse change ever. You are likely to discover there is still a lot you can accomplish and that it is even easier now for newcomers to the craft to get into it.

There will be a more thoughtful reply from the Dev team soon as to why we felt the change was important.

With all due respect MAB, that is pretty condescending of you to say. Emotions aside it is pretty clear that this change was a poorly made one. Before you dismiss the concerns of the community, I would advise you take a moment to actually address these concerns.

I have a lot of respect for you and the rest of the Dev team, and I appreciate what you do. I also understand that kickback will come with most changes and that it is important to be steadfast in the face of opposition. However, it's unfair to completely ignore everything that has been said in this thread. I hope that in this more thoughtful reply you will take the time to address the concerns of the community.

+1 to this.  I'm hopeful the response we were promised today will address some of the questions and concerns that have been brought up so far.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: FinalHeaven on January 01, 2019, 01:32:19 PM
Here's the problem though - new players WILL NOT go through the same process everyone else did because those recipes were learned at DIFFERENT DCs.

A new player needs 5 more levels to make high end potions before an existing player that had learned it at a lower DC before needs to? That's pretty unfair.

As with most things on a Neverwinter Nights PW it all comes down to a matter of time and investment.  By the same logic shouldn't we be handing out gold and loot to new players to compensate for the change in dungeon difficulty over the years?  What about XP to players that miss DM events?

Eliminating other players' hard work isn't the answer.  But fixing some of the glaring issues that don't effect that is.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: immasturgeon on January 01, 2019, 02:12:05 PM
As a counter to many of the negatives about this change... Yes it will require grinding to get higher but previously starter potions, say cowardice, will now, allow you to get to level 24 instead of 15. This is a single ingredient that is very commonly found. Yes the top is stretched, but this sort of change ripples throughout. You will need to get more levels but the difficulty of getting them will be blunted somewhat by the previously low level herbs getting you up further.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: H on January 01, 2019, 03:56:57 PM
Look on the bright side, low level characters who slave away collecting herbs will now be making more money since the prices will be adjusted.

Not so. The pricing for herbs has already been dropping prior to this change. Now, more herbs are needed to make a single successful product. The end result is more expensive, and in order to properly break even the cost of herb sales will have to drop too. Since the loss on making potions is increased, the potions' worth increases, but the herbs' individual worths decrease because they need to be expendable.
Rare herbs will go up in price, but the basics will drop. I presume basic herbs from around will end up coming out to about 20 GP per, give or take 5. They've seen up to a 20 GP dip depending on the person from the average price of 50 from when I started on here.

As a result, the income of low-level players from herb gathering decreases and the potions created will be more expensive. The demand for herbs only increases for starting herbalists. The supply however does not change.
---------------------------------------------------

The change of DC's up to 70 doesn't seem to be the issue, it's the imbalance of the DC's for the effects of the potions. Potions that are worth using at low levels but not high levels have high level DC's while others have low level DC's, with little semblance of direction.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: buyonegetonefree on January 01, 2019, 06:14:50 PM
My two main concerns are:

Why again changes were simply enforced and from ic perspective we should accept this as given? In general,  forums are full of references to how roleplaying is significant and highly valued. How those who called themselves 'master herbalists' should act now? Did they forgot all they knew?

Another important thing is an imbalance between casters and non-casters. I know that dnd was never balanced in this regard,  but on in low magic environment,  like PoTM is,  such changes increase the gap even further.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Hedgewife on January 01, 2019, 07:25:11 PM
If I could succeed at something in herbalism as someone just starting... That would be nice...
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: zDark Shadowz on January 01, 2019, 10:53:20 PM
Not sure what the DC 70 recipe is but potions of heal aren't 'that' high. Taking back my message earlier now that I have a much clearer idea how the DCs have been calculated for the potions. Give me a month at most with no work obligations, a lazy play schedule and if I have to pick up the herbs myself.

There's a logic, with exceptions for a couple of clear reasons, and it works.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Barlo Neverwitz on January 02, 2019, 11:08:20 AM
So up until this update I have been passively doing herbalism with two different character to make potions as needed. This update has sewed my play experience because now I can't reach better stuff. In fact it is near impossible to get to higher DC stuff now.

Basically both characters have now given it up because crafting is not worth it compared to just going out and killing stuff. You can't even RP crafting because you end up doing it alone anyways. Let us do it quickly so we can go back to RP like this server claims to want so much.

I understand that the DCs needed to be raised because non-wis/con characters were able to make high tier stuff, but inflating the DCs to the extent of even people with stats that match it can barely hope to reach high stuff is harsh. I just wish the Dev team sees this and are atleast willing to compromise. If not it is just going to drive players away.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: DM Cataclysm on January 02, 2019, 01:17:17 PM
As long as you donít have negative modifiers to Wisdom and Constitution, you can still progress this craft as you would have before. Characters can start off with DC 15 potions and work their way up. Youíll gain crafting experience past the point that you previously would have, allowing you to reach the higher tier potions.

I definitely understand the frustration, especially for characters who had invested a lot in the craft and suddenly canít brew the potions they could before. I have more than one character that previously couldnít fail any potions and suddenly.....they can fail a lot of them! That being said - Herbalism was fairly easy compared to a lot of other crafts and returns a lot more profit compared to them also.

Smithing DCís reach into the 70 range as well. From my experience on a smithing character, it takes quite a bit more time to gather the materials you need and in general is much more expensive and time consuming to level. Thereís also quite a bit less profit to be made (unless you start gathering and get to the skill level to process Adamantine, which is even more time consuming and comes with a great deal of risk) - as what youíre making isnít consumable and fewer characters overall need it.

All in all - Iíd say donít be discouraged. While it will take more time to level the craft, it is still very useful and possible to level.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: noah25 on January 02, 2019, 11:46:56 PM
As long as you donít have negative modifiers to Wisdom and Constitution, you can still progress this craft as you would have before. Characters can start off with DC 15 potions and work their way up. Youíll gain crafting experience past the point that you previously would have, allowing you to reach the higher tier potions.

I definitely understand the frustration, especially for characters who had invested a lot in the craft and suddenly canít brew the potions they could before. I have more than one character that previously couldnít fail any potions and suddenly.....they can fail a lot of them! That being said - Herbalism was fairly easy compared to a lot of other crafts and returns a lot more profit compared to them also.

Smithing DCís reach into the 70 range as well. From my experience on a smithing character, it takes quite a bit more time to gather the materials you need and in general is much more expensive and time consuming to level. Thereís also quite a bit less profit to be made (unless you start gathering and get to the skill level to process Adamantine, which is even more time consuming and comes with a great deal of risk) - as what youíre making isnít consumable and fewer characters overall need it.

All in all - Iíd say donít be discouraged. While it will take more time to level the craft, it is still very useful and possible to level.

Definitely agree. Herbalism was hands down the easiest craft which is why everyone has picked it up. There is a reason it feels like 70% of the server has some experience in herbalism and there's always a smithing shortage. Its a change sure, but I definitely do not see how its a "punishment". I have a herbalist that couldn't fail a potion before. It was nice, but I perhaps optimistically believe, it will reward those who stick with herbalism more, and certainly increase the incentive for people to party up. Before if I wanted to solo I would take any character, no matter how bad their modifiers, and master herbalism. Between haste, invisibility, healing, barksin, bulls, and cats, you don't really need a mage or cleric at lower levels. I may still be stubborn about it, but I will definitely think twice now about going out without a party.

I love soloing, still think discouraging it is a win for the server as its intended to function.
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Zarathustra217 on January 03, 2019, 04:45:49 AM
To all of our fellow Prisoners:

Recent updates have significantly expanded the herbalism craft in the form of a wide variety of new herbs, recipes, and potions.

We have now had time to properly observe the impact of these additions and this, along with overall feedback provided by player herbalists, has led us to the following conclusions: firstly, that herbalism was already poorly balanced against other crafts, which all required a significantly greater commitment in terms of time and materials invested; secondly, that the relative easiness of herbalism led to an over-saturation of the market and stockpiling of potions, hindering the desired interdependency and general functioning of the player economy and making soloing or adventuring without a caster far easier than intended; and thirdly, that these preexisting problems were further exacerbated by the introduction of many new types of herbs and potions made from them.

In order to correct these issues, we made the following change: instead of setting the DCs of individual potions manually by the developers for each potion, the DC is now calculated by a regular and mathematical formula to make it easier to maintain balance:  5 + (4 * base spell level) + (3 * effective caster level), with a minimum of 15. This results in the 15 to 70 DC spread seen after the recent changes, which brings the relative difficulty of "beginner" and "expert" potions directly in line with the other crafts on the server. An alternative would be to simply limiting the spawn rate of herbs in general, but to do so would only correct the third of the three issues mentioned above and therefore we decided to go for a more fundamental fix.

In general, although we may likely make adjustments to the system as a whole, we believe that simply bringing herbalism into consistency with the other crafts is still warranted and needed. We are of course aware of the fact that this, like all changes which increase the difficulty of play, will not be favored by all, and we do not take such decisions lightly. We are also sensitive to the fact that it varies significantly how much time people have available to play, and we want crafts to be approachable and rewarding for many different players. Yet we also have to balance this carefully against the need for crafts to reward those who prioritize investing their time in these crafts and whose roleplay revolves around them.

To specifically address some concerns that have arisen: firstly, yes, this will indeed mean that this craft will take longer to master, but it should be no longer than the rest of our crafts. That is one of the intended outcome of the changes. However, as the amount of crafting XP you receive is directly related to your own skill and the DC of the potion attempted, you will continue to gain crafting XP regularly and in proportion to the difficulty of the crafting you attempt. Secondly, while we acknowledge some inevitable awkwardness from characters having difficulty with potions that were previously trivial to make, high-level herbalists should still be able to create virtually all of the potions they were able to create previously, albeit with a greater chance of failure. With some continued investment into the craft, they will arrive again at the highest level.

Again, it should be stressed that this does not mean that the current state is final and we won't be making any further adjustments. While we cannot always satisfy everyone, changes are always made with the goal of creating a better, richer, and more rewarding world for everyone and will be constantly evaluated against that. What we want to assure everyone is that we are not insensible to your feelings, your ideas, your thoughts, and your opinions, whether we agree with you or not. Obviously, we rarely (if ever) get anything completely right the first time, so there are times where we must experiment and try new things; your feedback, especially after some time spent with the new version of the system, is both valuable and necessary in determining what adjustments we'll need to make down the road. We may even need to make some changes to the difficulty and required investment of all crafting, overall, and we'll know a lot better once we see how this works out. But we ask you to participate in this process with an open mind and not pass rash judgment, doing what you can to make the ongoing discussion both constructive and amiable.

Very sincerely,

The PotM Development Team
Title: Re: Herbalism Changes
Post by: Dante101 on January 03, 2019, 07:53:09 AM
Thank you for the explanation and the formula behind the logic. I firmly believe that explanations like this are crucial to effectively bringing a group of people to understand why a change is being implemented, and to be less resistant to it.

After playing with the new system for a few days, it does seem well designed for the most part, but I still have my concerns. Particularly how many potions are clustered around specific break points (such as DC22, 32, 42) - but that seems to be a function of the formula. Moving from one circle of magic to the next (at minimum required caster level) will result in a 10 DC jump. I know there are other options available to craft to help bridge that 10 DC gap, but they are fairly specific. Other crafts like smithing simply require the crafter to use the existing materials they have gathered and selecting a more difficult template to move up the DC. For herbalists, this means collecting specific materials that are very likely to be seasonal.

I'll also add that leveling this craft to mastery previously - for me - took many months of focused and persistent effort. I started focusing on the craft in late 2017, and hit mastery just a few weeks back. But that is likely due to my limited play time and resources, playing a mundane character without regular access to spells to assist in gathering, and only being online a few hours on weeknights. I bring this up because of the previous comments of the resistance to this change being an emotional one. In part, I'd say that is true, at least for me - because of the aforementioned efforts made to master the craft, and my invested time and efforts are being set back as a result.

Naturally, I'll continue to try advancing this craft to return to mastery, but it seems a daunting task when put up against players that have the ability to dedicate far more time than I do. I've no doubt that with enough time and effort I'll make it - but I will once again be behind the curve.

All that said - I do greatly appreciate the time and effort the dev team has put into crafting systems (and others!) recently. I don't intend to sound ungrateful - we as a community understand that the work you do is done for free and at will. I personally only ask that you help "bring us along for the ride" with these changes with communications like the post above mine.