Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions & Feedback (OOC) => General Feedback => Topic started by: Alan Hunter on November 10, 2018, 12:28:55 PM

Title: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Alan Hunter on November 10, 2018, 12:28:55 PM
I realize that this class hasn't gotten as much attention as it should. Fighters and Druids recently recieved some extensive updates that in game balance can turn the tabpes mechanically. Yet I feel barbarians are lacking mind you some of their class feats are interesting but with their limited feat slots they seem to lack luster in class. Curious I'm surprise we haven't add more berserker or rage like feats such as Terrifying Rage or Thundering to their repetoire. Or an ability/feat that improves their damage reduction. Perhaps a class feat to make their inflicting wounds cause bleed status? Some feats provide some mechanical/role play but other than high hit points and damage they are not as diverse as some classes. Suggestions folks?
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Legion XXI on November 10, 2018, 12:35:04 PM
Barbarian is in a really good place right now.  They have feats that give high amounts of SR, elemental resistances, and significant boosts to saves.  Heck, they even get a feat that almost negates the AC penalty to rage, and end up getting Mighty Rage if you stay pure.  I'm really not sure what else you could responsibly ask for at this point.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: BattleCupcake on November 10, 2018, 01:06:47 PM
Only thing I'd be a proponent of of the suggested changes is a feat or ability that ties into one of their existing, non-rage class features. i.e. a feat that boosts their Fast Movement speed by another 10%, or a feat that improved barbarian damage reduction to make it less negligible (as barbarian DR is low enough to be almost a dead feature).

More options are okay. Given barbarians spend all of their feats on rage feats, giving feats not based on rage might actually give barbs some build diversity (a feature they currently lack altogether).
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Pav on November 10, 2018, 02:16:45 PM
or a feat that improved barbarian damage reduction to make it less negligible (as barbarian DR is low enough to be almost a dead feature).

Even just 3 flat DR counts. It's on every single physical attack and you know what they say about little things. They pile up.



In general, I will echo Legion's sentiments - Barbarians are some of the better classes on PotM and have a variety of unique features to PotM. I think they're good & great & cool & nice.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Phantasia on November 10, 2018, 03:08:38 PM
Barbarians are in a far better spot than they were compared to Vanilla in the 1-20 range, here. While I understand how BattleCupcake feels about build diversity, in the end, it's all about your character's differences as a Barbarian that sets them apart from others.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Booksarefun666 on November 10, 2018, 03:36:49 PM
If you wanted some build diversity there would be fighter for you. A barbarian's ability is pretty one-sided but that one thing is what makes them unique and cool.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Craugh on November 10, 2018, 03:50:03 PM
I'll chime in here since I play a barb, and am relatively conscious of weighing mechanical advantages. Disclaimer: I've not yet delved upper-teen lvl content beyond Curst.

TL;DR As it currently stands, spending all your feats as a barbarian on rage feats is a mechanical waste.

No, really! The most potent use you get out of it is the SR, which can be approximated by the Greater SR potion variety, or a cleric or druid at your back. A lvl 16 cleric or druid can give you exactly the same thing for much longer. If someone says that the barbarian rage/SR feats are still useful for soloing or when a cleric/druid isn't necessary, then they're looking at dungeons below their barbarian's level for xp, where SR doesn't really matter in the end. If you want SR, you want it to last a long while. If there's a high-level barb out there who thinks differently, please speak up.

Perhaps even more importantly, there is an enormous amount of utility in the vanilla feats. Weapon focus, Improved Critical, Blind Fight, IKD, Expertise/Improved Expertise... these are all more attractive than the barbarian feats, barring Stone Rage and maybe the two Extended/Increased # of Rage feats.

As it stands, you either ignore the barb feats altogether because they detract too much from mechanical efficacy, or you take them all because you love getting SR while raging. A few take only Stone Rage because they're nabbing every bit of AC possible.

I love BattleCupcake's suggestion of adding feats that improved upon their unique qualities, like DR and speed. Stuff like that would outweigh the utility of Expertise/Improved Expertise, for instance. Not for all builds, but some, at the very least. Note, while the 3/- DR isn't negligible--as Pav stated--this "unique" aspect of the barbarian can be replicated by enchanted adamantine armor, or so I've heard. Making it possible to outshine an adamantine item if you invest feat(s) sounds like a really good way to make it truly unique to barbarians. Even only adding 1/- DR by feat, ideally locked behind lvl 17 barbarian, would be a very nice pat on the back for resisting the temptation to dip into rogue and/or fighter. (Edit: suggestion retracted per the reasoning below in a later post.)

I understand the argument that RP, the character, should be what makes them unique, but mechanics--especially all these interesting feats on POTM--are meant to underscore those differences. Why not add or replace a few to make that underscoring work better?

All that said, this is a relatively minor issue compared to stuff like re-designing crafting systems. I'll not speak too much on it, if only because it's a footnote on the list of important issues for the devs to deal with.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Craugh on November 10, 2018, 03:51:29 PM
Edit: Double-posted, my mistake.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Pav on November 10, 2018, 04:03:48 PM
Barbarians have amazing build diversity. Like a lot of classes, they are best when taken 20 levels of, but - and this is a very large but - there are many builds that incorporate the class and make exceptional use of its unique Rage ability, especially ones that incorporate other melee classes. For example, Barbarian / Ranger / Fighter is an exceptionally strong damage dealer. A Barbarian / Druid can easily cap all of their physical statistics and have exceptional capacity both in ranged, melee, and spellcasting. Bardbarian fist-fighters are almost up to par with monks!

In general, this class is exceptionally diverse and its one key, powerful element makes it very desirable for those that can take it.

Also, Adamantine Armor's DR is pierced by +1 weapons. Barbarian's shrug off +100000000000 weapons. So, there's that.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Revenant on November 10, 2018, 04:10:57 PM
It should be said that the Barbarian's new feats aren't there to improve their ability to solo. Almost no mundane class is going to be able to solo content of a similar level to themselves.

3/- DR does add up, certainly, though I find this server has a tendency towards the "chunkier" damage numbers. That said, the only other class that gets x/- DR is Dwarven Defender - which is a race-locked PRC requiring significant character investment.

As Pav mentioned earlier, Stone Rage is a very potent feat. Almost entirely negating the Barbarian's AC penalty during rage will save you more than an extra one or two damage shaved off each connected attack, since a few AC can make a very real difference between getting hit and not.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: buyonegetonefree on November 10, 2018, 04:26:25 PM
Adamantine armor dr can't be pierced with +1 weapon,  but I totally agree that diversity for barbarian class can come from (and should come from) multiclassing. Rogue/Fighter/Barbarian,  Rogue/Barbarian are also a way to go amongst with other options listed above. They'll complement well with high amount of skill points barbarian can get or will allow to acquire more feats standard barbarian,  focused on rage feats,  usually can't get. Barbarian is for sure not a class that needs any type of direct buff right now.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Craugh on November 10, 2018, 04:33:17 PM
Barbarians have amazing build diversity. Like a lot of classes, they are best when taken 20 levels of, but - and this is a very large but - there are many builds that incorporate the class and make exceptional use of its unique Rage ability, especially ones that incorporate other melee classes. For example, Barbarian / Ranger / Fighter is an exceptionally strong damage dealer. A Barbarian / Druid can easily cap all of their physical statistics and have exceptional capacity both in ranged, melee, and spellcasting. Bardbarian fist-fighters are almost up to par with monks!

I call red herring! [flaps a fish around]

The context of this conversation is how to improve pure barb build diversity, or at least make it an attractive option compared to a multiclassed build. I don't think anyone would argue that a short dip into barb is a bad thing. Multiclassing will always be a good way to make a competent, rounded character. The issue is how to make a pure barb a more attractive prospect, as a pure fighter has been. As all classes do in their own way.

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In general, this class is exceptionally diverse and its one key, powerful element makes it very desirable for those that can take it.

This is misleading. A multiclassed build is exceptionally diverse. Yes, like any other class, barb has an ability--two, if you count the speed--right out the gate that makes multiclassing into it worthwhile.

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Also, Adamantine Armor's DR is pierced by +1 weapons. Barbarian's shrug off +100000000000 weapons. So, there's that.

I don't have firsthand experience, but I vaguely recall a mention of adamantine shields having -/DR. Not the chest piece. My apologies for being vague here.

It should be said that the Barbarian's new feats aren't there to improve their ability to solo. Almost no mundane class is going to be able to solo content of a similar level to themselves.

Agreed. My point was that soloing (or a party without a cleric/druid) is practically the only context that a barb's SR would be useful enough to justify the cost of practically all your feats as a pure barb, barring an emergency situation.

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3/- DR does add up, certainly, though I find this server has a tendency towards the "chunkier" damage numbers. That said, the only other class that gets x/- DR is Dwarven Defender - which is a race-locked PRC requiring significant character investment.

I hadn't considered how this would make barb better than a Dwarven Defender. DwD is arguably better for a tank build because of the AC boost, but... hm. I retract my suggestion for improving DR by -/1 above. Seeing barb edge out DwD in utility doesn't sit well with me.

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As Pav mentioned earlier, Stone Rage is a very potent feat. Almost entirely negating the Barbarian's AC penalty during rage will save you more than an extra one or two damage shaved off each connected attack, since a few AC can make a very real difference between getting hit and not.

Agreed, it's why I explicitly made an exception for it in my earlier post, along with maybe Extended/Extra Rage if you plan to use it a lot.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Pav on November 10, 2018, 04:50:29 PM
Barbarians have amazing build diversity. Like a lot of classes, they are best when taken 20 levels of, but - and this is a very large but - there are many builds that incorporate the class and make exceptional use of its unique Rage ability, especially ones that incorporate other melee classes. For example, Barbarian / Ranger / Fighter is an exceptionally strong damage dealer. A Barbarian / Druid can easily cap all of their physical statistics and have exceptional capacity both in ranged, melee, and spellcasting. Bardbarian fist-fighters are almost up to par with monks!

I call red herring! [flaps a fish around]

The context of this conversation is how to improve pure barb build diversity, or at least make it an attractive option compared to a multiclassed build. I don't think anyone would argue that a short dip into barb is a bad thing. Multiclassing will always be a good way to make a competent, rounded character. The issue is how to make a pure barb a more attractive prospect, as a pure fighter has been. As all classes do in their own way.

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In general, this class is exceptionally diverse and its one key, powerful element makes it very desirable for those that can take it.

This is misleading. A multiclassed build is exceptionally diverse. Yes, like any other class, barb has an ability--two, if you count the speed--right out the gate that makes multiclassing into it worthwhile.

I find neither of these points relevant to the classes' strengths.

Not every other class is good upon multiclassing, depending on your original. A pure class character is almost always restricted to very few effective paths, which is the same case for Barbarians. It doesn't change the fact that a level 20 character of a single class will almost always be same thing as another in terms of playstyle if it was built with efficacy or even semi-efficacy in mind. The tools can differ (as they do with Barbarians using different weapon choices and statistic spreads), but the style remains consistent.

Adamantine armor dr can't be pierced with +1 weapon,

You're right. +3.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Nemesis 24 on November 10, 2018, 05:13:36 PM
I've watched a lvl 12 Barbarian and a lvl 12 wizard duo level 15+ dungeons.  You are forgetting the immunity to sneak attacks as well that Barbarians get thanks to uncanny dodge.  Simply put with all the enormous power upgrades Barbarians got with their unique feats as well as access to other variety of boosts, this whole conversation feels a bit daft.  If you play a barbarian that doesnt feel strong, I'd wager you didnt build them right, because theres clear and horrendous evidence of what happens when you do.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Craugh on November 10, 2018, 05:33:13 PM
Not every other class is good upon multiclassing, depending on your original. A pure class character is almost always restricted to very few effective paths, which is the same case for Barbarians. It doesn't change the fact that a level 20 character of a single class will almost always be same thing as another in terms of playstyle if it was built with efficacy or even semi-efficacy in mind. The tools can differ (as they do with Barbarians using different weapon choices and statistic spreads), but the style remains consistent.

I can agree to that. In the end, how mechanically differentiated a barb should be from other front-liners is a matter of opinion. I'd personally enjoy seeing barb feats that are side-grades instead of upgrades, so to speak. What those are... eh, I'd need to give it more thought.

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Adamantine armor dr can't be pierced with +1 weapon,

You're right. +3.

There's nothing that will give flat -/ DR except a certain amulet? Huh.

I've watched a lvl 12 Barbarian and a lvl 12 wizard duo level 15+ dungeons.  You are forgetting the immunity to sneak attacks as well that Barbarians get thanks to uncanny dodge.  Simply put with all the enormous power upgrades Barbarians got with their unique feats as well as access to other variety of boosts, this whole conversation feels a bit daft.  If you play a barbarian that doesnt feel strong, I'd wager you didnt build them right, because theres clear and horrendous evidence of what happens when you do.

I'd still argue that most of the feats are easily passed up for other vanilla feats, but agreed on the matter of power. Barbarians don't need a power boost.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Pav on November 10, 2018, 06:04:29 PM
There are a few more things that give flat DR, like a certain axe, but, yes. I agree with your latter points, though I think they have a sufficient number of sidegrades available to them as of right now. There's a lot of Rage feats that are nifty and niche.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: aprogressivist on November 10, 2018, 06:51:32 PM
The Uncanny Dodge upgrade with EE is itself a massive power boost, because it makes pure Barbs excellent tanks in places where mobs have huge amounts of sneak attacks. I've had Paladins get torn to shreds at level 20 in places where a Barb will now probably be able to tank quite effectively...
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: EO on November 13, 2018, 10:31:28 PM
Barbarians are fine as they are; perhaps it'd be nice at some point to have feats that improve other aspects of barbarians to give more versatility but they're in a pretty good spot right now.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: zDark Shadowz on November 13, 2018, 11:43:47 PM
Only things I can see that Barbarians would need would be things like -

Some kind of Last Stand feat. While raging, if you would be knocked to unconscious, heal back to half HP, but rage fades and exhaustion kicks in (even if you have Tireless Rage). Requires Back to the Wall, Die Hard, Barbarian Rage as a prerequisites. Fighting till your last breath, and then some, like Hercules from Fate/Stay Night. If you're in a bad spot you're probably going to still be in one though and worse off after moving forward but it gives that heroic barbarian feel I think. It would also prevent people from dying to rage fading out while unconscious.

Another rage feat would be to acquire damage immunity as a % against physical attacks, no matter how small it actually is. Even 5% would be nothing to scoff about considering current items IG. D&D 5E has physical damage being reduced to half while raging, we (I play a barbarian multiclass too!) would appreciate a minor version of this I think.

Stack up 5/- physical resistance with physical immunity and physical damage reduction of 5/+3 or max barb damage reduction and they all have a significant cumulative impact, so % doesn't need to be anywhere near as excessive as 50%, but being present would be nice. I'd pick a 5% over my Dodge feat which is a relative 5% less chance to be hit depending on what's going on, which is otherwise useless when I'm too high or too low AC for something.

A rage feat that applies Vampiric Regen to your held weapon equal to such and such / level
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Iridni Ren on November 14, 2018, 10:34:40 AM
Only things I can see that Barbarians would need would be things like -

Some kind of Last Stand feat. While raging, if you would be knocked to unconscious, heal back to half HP, but rage fades and exhaustion kicks in (even if you have Tireless Rage). Requires Back to the Wall, Die Hard, Barbarian Rage as a prerequisites. Fighting till your last breath, and then some, like Hercules from Fate/Stay Night. If you're in a bad spot you're probably going to still be in one though and worse off after moving forward but it gives that heroic barbarian feel I think. It would also prevent people from dying to rage fading out while unconscious.

Haha. This feat seems a tad OP :D

I agree that Barbarians as a class are sufficiently strong now. If there's not a lot of diversity in builds, that only reinforces the point.

How so? Because if barbarians are always taking their own class-specific feats, that means those feats are superior to the alternatives that other classes can take.

The better way to increase diversity of builds is through non-class-specific feats because that adds complexity and greater choices to all classes. If a new feat is offered to only a single class, it's much easier to evaluate and decide whether the feat makes for a superior build or not.

That is, if most barbarians lack diversity now and a new barbarian feat is created, it will either be an improvement on the prevalent build or it won't be. If it is, then everyone will want to re-level. And that build will become the new standard for barbarians. If it's not an improvement, few will take it, and nothing will change.

Additionally, if barbarians do take the new feat because it's superior, then that means barbarians as a class will have become more powerful. So diverse builds won't result, but power creep will (despite the consensus being barbarians are in a "good place" already).

It's much easier to maintain game balance while increasing player choices through feats that are available to the maximum number of PCs. The more restricted a feat is (in other words, the more difficult it is to get), the greater the tendency to make it more powerful. Restricting a powerful feat so that few PCs qualify for it is a recipe for imbalance.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: zDark Shadowz on November 14, 2018, 11:24:14 AM
Spoiler: show
Only things I can see that Barbarians would need would be things like -

Some kind of Last Stand feat. While raging, if you would be knocked to unconscious, heal back to half HP, but rage fades and exhaustion kicks in (even if you have Tireless Rage). Requires Back to the Wall, Die Hard, Barbarian Rage as a prerequisites. Fighting till your last breath, and then some, like Hercules from Fate/Stay Night. If you're in a bad spot you're probably going to still be in one though and worse off after moving forward but it gives that heroic barbarian feel I think. It would also prevent people from dying to rage fading out while unconscious.

Haha. This feat seems a tad OP :D


Perhaps it is OP but it matches how I see a barbarian, as some juggernaut that's going to sustain heavy damage and still keep fighting regardless, and those that share that vision will be taking the additional feats that represent that vision. It's supposed to be a very high cost concept to survive a situation you don't want to remain in, with a forced cooldown period to prevent it from being continuously activated in any given encounter.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Iridni Ren on November 14, 2018, 11:39:43 AM
Perhaps it is OP but it matches how I see a barbarian, as some juggernaut that's going to sustain heavy damage and still keep fighting regardless, and those that share that vision will be taking the additional feats that represent that vision. It's supposed to be a very high cost concept to survive a situation you don't want to remain in, with a forced cooldown period to prevent it from being continuously activated in any given encounter.

No other class can currently compete with barbarians in the ability to "sustain heavy damage and still keep fighting."

A 20th level barbarian can easily have upwards of 300 HP. This feat would say even in a situation in which the barbarian has somehow been brought to unconsciousness, she has an extra 150+ HP pool to draw on effortlessly and instantaneously.

It's good to hear you believe it warrants a cool down, because imagine if it just kept reactivating!

Even Dread Revenants don't hop back up immediately.

Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: zDark Shadowz on November 14, 2018, 11:48:13 AM
You're right, perhaps only an HP restore to the same limit as when Back to the Wall activates, and the feat is kept at at least lvl 12 barbarian (Requires Greater Rage) so you have to have committed a bit more.

I see the Barbarian becoming fully unbuffed due to unconsciousness and having dropped their weapons as a result, so they'd have to pull out a second weapon or pick up what they dropped, in the meantime whatever felled them has moved on to trying to fight something else but still presents a very direct threat.

They definitely won't be at peak performance but they've got one last shot.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Phantasia on November 14, 2018, 03:22:19 PM
A last shot feat would be pretty neat. Maybe hard to script, but I would have it function as thus:

You activate the ability called "Final Rage" or something, and you have X amount of time where you are unable to perish (a small amount of rounds). If X amount of time passes, and combat is not over, you immediately fall to badly impaired corpse. Think it's pretty fair, if you know you're about to die. It could perhaps only be activated within a certain threshold of HP as well.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: LivingWasteland on November 14, 2018, 03:24:57 PM
I'd just support anything that would keep your own rage from killing you.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Alan Hunter on November 14, 2018, 04:35:03 PM
I uhh. Wow kind of jaw drop there. First xross classing is always a bonus. Therws no doubt xross classing makes a diffrence in versatility. As pure barbarians go I never met or seen one. As I stated seems somethings missing from barbarians. As a ravenloft barbarian goes most of you made some fine points.  Some id thw feats mentioned I never considered and some just don't come off appealing as some of the utility feats. Some of the comments made seem to suggest I'm inexperience, to Ravenloft maybe, not so much uxh vanilla. I'm not a council member or anything I'm not a developer I can only go off from experiences and what I can manage to learn. A saving throw to precent passing out from rage death with 5hp would be a cool ability. And I totally think a last ditch effort feat to remained standing would be an awesome addition. Also it's rather daft for people to make assumptions where there is oppurtunity for improvement. Regardless of upgrades there is laways something to improve or better. Regardless of enormous evidance not all people have the advantages of others or specialities. Some not as equally privy. Hence this topic to improve barbarian feats and place suggestions and gice knowledge to those that havent come across it yet. Either way this has been insightful and I thank those with constructive criticism and feedback for helping.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Arawn on November 14, 2018, 05:53:09 PM
Iím not entirely certain barb15/sorc5 is what I would call an advantage over a straight barb.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: aprogressivist on November 14, 2018, 06:57:44 PM
Also it's rather daft for people to make assumptions where there is oppurtunity for improvement. Regardless of upgrades there is laways something to improve or better.

This doesn't mean anything. "There is always something to improve" -- not arbitrarily. Strong things don't need to be further improved while other things languish. Weaker classes should be improved first before strong classes are boosted. This isn't "daft", this simply trying to keep an eye on balance.

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Regardless of enormous evidance not all people have the advantages of others or specialities. Some not as equally privy.

I'm not really clear on your point here. Are you trying to imply that your opinion is worth more than other people's because you explore sub-optimal scenarios? We shouldn't ignore evidence of what a pure Barb is capable of simply because some people choose not to minmax their characters.

I've seen high level Pure Barbs, they're hella strong now. A level 20 Barb with Reckless Rage can pop +10 Strength with one click.  No-one else can do this. They're terrifying and can challenge any class.

Also, to address an earlier and incorrect point by Craught, Spell Resistance from Mystic Rage is much better than what is obtained from a Greater Spell Resistance Potion. A Greater Spell Resistance Potion gives SR 21 (12 + 9 caster levels.) Mystic Rage gives a maximum of Spell Resistance 32. This is a huge difference.

You lose both of these things when you multiclass, so I don't see what's so jaw-dropping about the suggestion of staying pure class. It's not like pure Fighter, which is weaker than Rogue 5/Fighter 15 in virtually every way that matters; there are clear and evident advantages to Barb 20 now.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: zDark Shadowz on November 14, 2018, 06:59:16 PM
Iím not entirely certain barb15/sorc5 is what I would call an advantage over a straight barb.

Maybe with true strike + IKD attached, self buffing Constitution so rage lasts longer.

Shield spell & mage armor for AC improvements could be gifted from party members but it could do that too.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Kaedweni_Knight on November 16, 2018, 03:52:28 PM
If anything, barbarians are pretty powerful compared to fighters which are basically one of the most useless classes unless multi-classed with which is sad. Fighters should get more buffs.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Iridni Ren on November 16, 2018, 04:22:35 PM
Fighters have received new feats last go around, and EO says they're getting Greater Weapon Focus and Specialization next go around.

Anyway...that's probably off topic.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Always_a_hero on November 16, 2018, 04:57:29 PM
I'd wouldn't say pure fighter nor pure barbarian are anything like "useless" or "weak" mechanically. The worse problem with fighters is that they're boring to play because players always go for the same feats to optimize their way through.

I think we can agree lasting characters, or in other words those who are potent for lvl 20 material, are those who are fun to play, but also those who are fun to roleplay.

In a setting where magic is lacking, non-casting class have been given many options for backgrounds, so now (despite people's imagination) fighters seems more viable to last in a position where they'll contribute to the horror setting.

When it comes to barbarians, well... Things get a bit weird because... What are they supposed to fear again? There are motives which can be come up with for sure, but can you say barnarian are fitting for a setting such as Ravenloft? Using my experience as reference, the most recent barbarians I've seen were mostly attributed with the trait of savagery, which I guess can contribute to madness and fear for other players, but being a raising bad guy can be hard (RIP calibans).

Though most of this might seems useless to the conversation, I'd like to point out an answer to the barbarian's fear: it's very ally, the rage. A rage which consumes him/her to death in mighty battles... So RP wise it's making sense to me they'd die from rage.

So yeah, I guess they're alright. Just awkwardly standing with 6 charisma in the middle of a xenophobic place.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Craugh on November 16, 2018, 06:17:01 PM
Also, to address an earlier and incorrect point by Craught, Spell Resistance from Mystic Rage is much better than what is obtained from a Greater Spell Resistance Potion. A Greater Spell Resistance Potion gives SR 21 (12 + 9 caster levels.) Mystic Rage gives a maximum of Spell Resistance 32. This is a huge difference.

Note my use of the word "approximated." I never did find out the exact SR the greater variety of potion gave.

My point was that getting that SR has far too high an opportunity cost. 32 SR in particular requires investing all feats into barb feats, not to mention choosing half-orc or caliban. Is 32 SR useful? Sure. But the sheer utility of all the other feats swapped out for this, which can be approximated by a potion or precisely replicated by a lvl 20 druid/cleric spell, is too high a mechanical trade-off. An equivalent lvl 20 mage with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration has 60% odds of beating it. Not bad, but a flip of the coin to resist a spell isn't something worth 8 feats plus a pile of other niche benefits tacked onto Rage. Let alone how dungeoning often takes time; rage lasts a relatively short time.

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You lose both of these things when you multiclass, so I don't see what's so jaw-dropping about the suggestion of staying pure class. It's not like pure Fighter, which is weaker than Rogue 5/Fighter 15 in virtually every way that matters; there are clear and evident advantages to Barb 20 now.

It's not jaw-dropping, but to my knowledge, it's only done for purely thematic reasons. No one should go pure barb for the mechanical power when Rogue 5/Barb 15 gives you the same 20 levels of Uncanny Dodge to negate flanking*, plus all the lovely Rogue Skills and Sneak Attacks in return for a small loss of AB and HP. Dramatically more utility and survivability is gained for a small loss of specialization as a heavy-hitting brute, the same as the dilemma between going pure Fighter or Rogue 5/Fighter 15.

*I'm not 100% certain Uncanny Dodge stacks when multiclassing in the classes that have it for the purpose of preventing flanking. I recall an informal confirmation on Discord, but there's nothing official on the wiki. If it's false, that at least is a good argument for going pure barb.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: aprogressivist on November 16, 2018, 06:42:09 PM
My point was that getting that SR has far too high an opportunity cost.

You make it sound like you pay 8 Feats to get SR 32.

You pay those Feats to get 7 other Rage effects and SR 32. The opportunity cost of Mystic Rage is one Feat. Not eight.


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It's not jaw-dropping, but to my knowledge, it's only done for purely thematic reasons. No one should go pure barb for the mechanical power when Rogue 5/Barb 15 gives you the same 20 levels of Uncanny Dodge to negate flanking*, plus all the lovely Rogue Skills and Sneak Attacks in return for a small loss of AB and HP. Dramatically more utility and survivability is gained for a small loss of specialization as a heavy-hitting brute, the same as the dilemma between going pure Fighter or Rogue 5/Fighter 15.

You're incorrect about pure Barbs losing Flanking. Barbarians get Uncanny Dodge.

The things that a Barbarian loses out for dipping 5 levels into Rogue is upgrading his DR from 3 to 5, Tireless Rage, another 2 Rage per day (in other words, 50% more Raging), and upgrading that Rage to a further +2 to STR/CON/Will while raging.

All the above are big, if not huge, opportunity costs -- especially when you take them in conjunction, since all those Rage effect boosts stack together.

Now I won't argue that Rogue 5/Barbarian 15 is bad -- any Rogue dip gets UMD so by definition it's good. But there's no comparing pure Barbarian to pure Fighter. It's an excellent class.

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*I'm not 100% certain Uncanny Dodge stacks when multiclassing in the classes that have it for the purpose of preventing flanking. I recall an informal confirmation on Discord, but there's nothing official on the wiki. If it's false, that at least is a good argument for going pure barb.

Pure Barbs get Uncanny Dodge and immunity to flanking. That's why pure Barbs are so good now. You get a level 20 melee frontliner who can tank in places where mobs have sneak attack.

So: in PvE, Barbarians have an unique niche and remain a hard-hitting melee frontliner. In PvP, they have access to potentially instant +10 Strength that will make them terrifying in any up-close encounter and SR 32 which is on par with monks or level 20 spellcaster Spell Resistance (and again, they don't need to spend 6 seconds casting to activate these powers -- they activate with one Rage click). They are the PvP equivalent of high noon gunslingers, they go from standing to killing you in the space of one move.

Barbarians are not weak; they are an excellent class.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: BraveSirRobin on November 17, 2018, 02:26:42 AM
I'd just support anything that would keep your own rage from killing you.

+1 biggest drawback and biggest complaint I have about Barbs.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Ard on November 17, 2018, 05:34:22 AM
Actually this part is also cool  and i don't find it as a big drawback !
" I'm a berserk ! If I am going down I'll make sure I'll bring some of my enemies with me !"

Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Edward on November 17, 2018, 07:41:42 AM
Indeed, it can be used for RP, I was sure that's what the server was about?
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: MAB77 on November 17, 2018, 01:36:00 PM
I'd just support anything that would keep your own rage from killing you.

+1 biggest drawback and biggest complaint I have about Barbs.

That is actually what I prefer about barbarians, they reach raw power by pushing their bodies to the extreme. Thematically and balance wise, it is very fitting that they may risk falling from sheer exhaustion. I even wish we had something similar for high level casters chain casting powerful spells too quickly.

(Casters, rest assured this wish of mine won't be granted. :mrgreen:)

Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Iridni Ren on November 17, 2018, 02:09:41 PM
There is a form of it for casters already: Bear's Endurance.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: LivingWasteland on November 17, 2018, 07:10:34 PM
Sheer exhaustion doesn't have to bleeding out, though. As I said, I'd be happy with something that kept my rage from killing me. I'd drop a feat on something that drops me to 0 HP and knocks me out, because exhaustion, sure. But suddenly dropping to -8? I've died more from my own rage than anything else.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Edward on November 17, 2018, 08:06:20 PM
Sheer exhaustion doesn't have to bleeding out, though. As I said, I'd be happy with something that kept my rage from killing me. I'd drop a feat on something that drops me to 0 HP and knocks me out, because exhaustion, sure. But suddenly dropping to -8? I've died more from my own rage than anything else.


Yes, the whole idea of the feat is a short burst of power and endurance not an unconquerable ability that won't kill you if not used thoughtfully. Meaning dying to your own rage is a very true to the class thing.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: PrimetheGrime on November 18, 2018, 01:34:50 AM
Sheer exhaustion doesn't have to bleeding out, though. As I said, I'd be happy with something that kept my rage from killing me. I'd drop a feat on something that drops me to 0 HP and knocks me out, because exhaustion, sure. But suddenly dropping to -8? I've died more from my own rage than anything else.


Yes, the whole idea of the feat is a short burst of power and endurance not an unconquerable ability that won't kill you if not used thoughtfully. Meaning dying to your own rage is a very true to the class thing.

It certainly is. Barbs embody the essence of victory or death
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: ViktorYouFool on November 20, 2018, 04:39:43 PM
Sheer exhaustion doesn't have to bleeding out, though. As I said, I'd be happy with something that kept my rage from killing me. I'd drop a feat on something that drops me to 0 HP and knocks me out, because exhaustion, sure. But suddenly dropping to -8? I've died more from my own rage than anything else.

This. I've played a Barb twice on this server and in both cases I had a tendency to avoid actually using my rage for this reason. The situation where I actually needed rage was the situation where rage was most likely to kill me.

I wouldn't care if rage could drop you to 0HP. The problem would come when you'd go down and be at -1, then a second later instantly corpse because your rage wore out. In the fight where you needed it most, Rage winds up being a liability as much as a benefit.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Edward on November 20, 2018, 05:46:09 PM
Sheer exhaustion doesn't have to bleeding out, though. As I said, I'd be happy with something that kept my rage from killing me. I'd drop a feat on something that drops me to 0 HP and knocks me out, because exhaustion, sure. But suddenly dropping to -8? I've died more from my own rage than anything else.

This. I've played a Barb twice on this server and in both cases I had a tendency to avoid actually using my rage for this reason. The situation where I actually needed rage was the situation where rage was most likely to kill me.

I wouldn't care if rage could drop you to 0HP. The problem would come when you'd go down and be at -1, then a second later instantly corpse because your rage wore out. In the fight where you needed it most, Rage winds up being a liability as much as a benefit.

That's the point of the ability, it's a risk, victory or death ability.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Iridni Ren on November 20, 2018, 07:46:37 PM
I don't think it should be characterized as a barbarian's rage kills her. She would already have been dead if not for the rage.

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The situation where I actually needed rage was the situation where rage was most likely to kill me.

Why? Because you were likely to die without the rage? That's why you "needed" it. The rage, however, gave you a fighting chance. If you win, you patch up and live to fight another day. But without raging, you are probably going to lose. So you improve your chance of winning  at the cost of failing hard if you lose.

Many feats are risky gambles, such as Power Attack. If in PA mode you miss repeatedly when you would have hit in normal mode, you could feel that PA likewise "killed" you.  But you were aware when you chose to shift into PA mode that this was a possible outcome. You were hoping, however, the dice gods would reward you with hits that caused extra damage.

It's frustrating when the gamble doesn't work out and the PC loses precious recovery attempts when Con drops. But the barbarian who gambles successfully may entirely avoid recovery checks.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: LivingWasteland on November 21, 2018, 08:20:42 AM
Again, sudden exhaustion does not leave one laying in a pool of their own blood bleeding out.

But this is PotM. Leave your logic at the door, and strap on your helmet because nothing makes sense anymore.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Nemesis 24 on November 21, 2018, 09:38:31 AM
Again, sudden exhaustion does not leave one laying in a pool of their own blood bleeding out.

But this is PotM. Leave your logic at the door, and strap on your helmet because nothing makes sense anymore.

You are looking at this rather incorrectly.  Let us look at it properly, and actually with logic.

Scenario 1.  Barbarian is at full hit points.  Activates Rage.  They take no damage during the fight, rage wears off.  They are tired, but they don't end up in a pool of blood.

Scenario 2.  Barbarian is at full hit points.  Activates rage.  They take some damage during the fight, rage wears off.  They are more hurt when the adrenaline wears off, and are tired, but they pushed themselves beyond their sensible limits.

Scenario 3.  Barbarian is at or not at full hit points.  Maybe they've taken a lot of damage already.  They activate rage, and proceed to take even more damage.  Like a person fighting on adrenaline with mortal wounds, they continue on, either until they take more damage than even they can stand, or until the adrenaline - and the rage - wears off.  As happens in real life, the individual -then- collapses into a pool of their own blood, as per your description, because they've taken mortal wounds that they would have otherwise ignored.  At that point its a last ditch effort.  Giving them a way to simply ignore that frankly either cheapens barbarian or smacks of an exploit to get around the only flaw of the single most powerful single click instant action ability in the game that provides more instant apply buffs than any other ability.

TL:DR - sudden exhaustion doesn't leave you in a pool of blood unless you'd actually be dead from injuries sustained.  In which case it does.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Arawn on November 21, 2018, 09:58:59 AM
Here is the 3.5 text of Rage:

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Rage (Ex)
A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarianís hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the characterís (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, canít charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies).

A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter. At 1st level he can use his rage ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level). Entering a rage takes no time itself, but a barbarian can do it only during his action, not in response to someone elseís action.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Iridni Ren on November 21, 2018, 10:25:45 AM

TL:DR - sudden exhaustion doesn't leave you in a pool of blood unless you'd actually be dead from injuries sustained.  In which case it does.

^ This. If it was the exhaustion/your own rage killing you, then you would die every time you used Barbarian Rage.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: immasturgeon on November 21, 2018, 10:29:20 AM
Again, sudden exhaustion does not leave one laying in a pool of their own blood bleeding out.

But this is PotM. Leave your logic at the door, and strap on your helmet because nothing makes sense anymore.

I think that it actually could leave them that way, in a round about way. It wasn't the rage that killed them it was the other injuries, the rage just kept them alive artificially. And speaking from a bit of a logical perspective this at least does make sense to me. There are plenty of tales of extreme athletes pushing themselves to and past the point of death and would have died without modern medical intervention. I see this in a similar way. You can amp yourself up so much that you ignore normal physiologic mechanisms. Were you not raging you would be dead. When you stop raging you now get that very special present because you were ignoring all the things happening to your body for that period of time.

Edit: See also - what Nem and Iridni mentioned before me.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: zDark Shadowz on November 21, 2018, 01:24:42 PM
... looking at the walls of text we can say okay, scrap that idea off my list I gave.

Mild damage immunity while raging, or vampiric regen while raging as a kind of blood frenzy thing, still are ideas. Or rage duration increased by one round for every enemy slain during a rage. With maybe a risk of Confusion status if that builds up too high. As a side thing for all classes maybe Second Wind could do more HP if you aren't bleeding out, it seems very lacklustre. EDIT: Unless you are raging in which case this has a much better chance of picking you back off the ground to back up and drink a Heal potion, so it seems we had something similar anyway that was better for barbarians in a certain situation for this.

If the majority believe that barbarian feat choices don't need improving at all then don't worry about making a wall of text to explain why. ( :) ) Can just say yay or nay if there isn't alternate suggestions being offered in the reply...
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Phantasia on November 21, 2018, 01:32:34 PM
Honestly, not dying from Barbarian Rage wearing off seems a little cheesy.

In what I understand about Barbarians, and the sort of primal rage they tap in to within their own willpower -- it can and should kill you. If you are barely hanging on by a few threads in the first place (unconsciousness) and you were forced into bleed out, your rage is still coursing through your veins. Once that burst of energy goes away, your body is no longer able to sustain itself beyond the limits it was just pushed (CON alteration), so you die.

If you are unsure you can take your current opponent at the start of combat with rage on, then don't rage. If you think you can beat someone with that extra edge, rage. Using rage at the start of combat in a sticky situation is all but bound to result in death. Forcing your body to go beyond its limits, in the sense of fantasy and even in real life, is always a risk. I don't see why this should be changed.

Blood frenzy sounds neat, as an aside.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: emptyanima on November 21, 2018, 01:48:40 PM
Think of it this way (spoilers ahead if you still haven't seen Gladiator somehow);

Spoiler: show
Commodus stabs Maximus before they have their big showdown (because he's a big coward), so Maximus is going to die.

At this point, Maximus is bloomin' angry (not just angry but for the sake of my illustration it'll do) and takes the guy out.

He kills Commodus and finally has his vengeance, and as all the adrenaline wears off he succumbs to his wounds.

The rage sustained him, but his wounds were fatal so it kept him going long enough to get the job done.

Maximus unfortunately didn't have a cleric or bard on hand to top up his health pool.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Daboomer on November 21, 2018, 05:01:54 PM
I agree that all classes can use variation. As far as barbarian power goes though, they are perfectly fine in my opinion. Both the sr path and a different path is excelent for them. They are already great tanks buffed up without hardly needing any feats for this due to the amazing hp and uncanny dodge.

Simply put. In terms of power barbarians are just fine.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: aprogressivist on November 24, 2018, 06:06:36 PM
Here's a tip for surviving dropping while in Barb rage; Regeneration potions will continue to apply if you drop below 0 HP (as long as you wouldn't have died outright so buffs fade, that is), thus offering the opportunity to hopefully get back on your feet and survive before your Rage drops.

If you don't have Regeneration potions, then find me IC for a range of healing potion options to match your needs ;)
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Alan Hunter on November 26, 2018, 03:40:52 PM
Quote from: Arawn link=topic=49777.msg610915 #msg610915 date=1542235989
Iím not entirely certain barb15/sorc5 is what I would call an advantage over a straight barb.

But Krunk can cast fist now!
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Alan Hunter on November 26, 2018, 03:48:40 PM
Also it's rather daft for people to make assumptions where there is oppurtunity for improvement. Regardless of upgrades there is laways something to improve or better.

This doesn't mean anything. "There is always something to improve" -- not arbitrarily. Strong things don't need to be further improved while other things languish. Weaker classes should be improved first before strong classes are boosted. This isn't "daft", this simply trying to keep an eye on balance.

If it doesnt mean anything then why comment? At the moment it may not need to improve per opinions. But, it can be I don't see the point to this comment. As for weaker classes I dont know what is xonsidered a weak class in Ravenloft. Dont think I ever heard of weak classes till this came up

Quote
Regardless of enormous evidance not all people have the advantages of others or specialities. Some not as equally privy.

I'm not really clear on your point here. Are you trying to imply that your opinion is worth more than other people's because you explore sub-optimal scenarios? We shouldn't ignore evidence of what a pure Barb is capable of simply because some people choose not to minmax their characters.

Again dont think my opinion is higher than others. We simply noted the same thing just in diffrence of opinion.

I've seen high level Pure Barbs, they're hella strong now. A level 20 Barb with Reckless Rage can pop +10 Strength with one click.  No-one else can do this. They're terrifying and can challenge any class.

Also, to address an earlier and incorrect point by Craught, Spell Resistance from Mystic Rage is much better than what is obtained from a Greater Spell Resistance Potion. A Greater Spell Resistance Potion gives SR 21 (12 + 9 caster levels.) Mystic Rage gives a maximum of Spell Resistance 32. This is a huge difference.

You lose both of these things when you multiclass, so I don't see what's so jaw-dropping about the suggestion of staying pure class. It's not like pure Fighter, which is weaker than Rogue 5/Fighter 15 in virtually every way that matters; there are clear and evident advantages to Barb 20 now.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: GoblinKing on December 20, 2018, 07:29:52 PM
So why not change the bonus to constitution to a flat bonus to a fort and temporal hit points as other servers do?

Also, I find most barbarian only feat to be overwhelmingly weak. Particularly, because most of them seem to justify themselves by their contribution to the SR feat, but the sr feat is quite useless if you arenīt a caliban or a half-orc.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: foxtale on December 20, 2018, 11:55:16 PM
Barbarians are really meant to drop down when their rage HP go away. The CON bonus doesn't simulate that their body somehow gets more beefy and resilient to injury, it simulates their pure raging determination to go on and stay standing even when their physical body is in the actual condition of a badly impaired corpse.

In my RP, I make a point of complimenting barbs for staying on two feet the way they do, really, assuming it would be visual to others that they are fighting on with wounds that really should have killed them by now, even by standards of their own muscle mass.

I go out of my way to mention this because considering it from this perspective, Barbarians are just that much more epic as opposed to... just having some more HP and winning PvE better than they do already?
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: GoblinKing on December 21, 2018, 02:27:02 PM
How are they "meant"  to drop down?  What was the name of the ability again? Suicidal rage? Should  All recent editions of dungeon and dragons  and pathfinder abandoned the constitution bonus and changed it with things that actually help them to stay alive. I just canīt understand the argument that barbarians are supposed to die.
Title: Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
Post by: Arawn on December 21, 2018, 02:32:19 PM
This topic is going in circles. Letís end it here for now.