or a feat that improved barbarian damage reduction to make it less negligible (as barbarian DR is low enough to be almost a dead feature).
Barbarians have amazing build diversity. Like a lot of classes, they are best when taken 20 levels of, but - and this is a very large but - there are many builds that incorporate the class and make exceptional use of its unique Rage ability, especially ones that incorporate other melee classes. For example, Barbarian / Ranger / Fighter is an exceptionally strong damage dealer. A Barbarian / Druid can easily cap all of their physical statistics and have exceptional capacity both in ranged, melee, and spellcasting. Bardbarian fist-fighters are almost up to par with monks!
In general, this class is exceptionally diverse and its one key, powerful element makes it very desirable for those that can take it.
Also, Adamantine Armor's DR is pierced by +1 weapons. Barbarian's shrug off +100000000000 weapons. So, there's that.
It should be said that the Barbarian's new feats aren't there to improve their ability to solo. Almost no mundane class is going to be able to solo content of a similar level to themselves.
3/- DR does add up, certainly, though I find this server has a tendency towards the "chunkier" damage numbers. That said, the only other class that gets x/- DR is Dwarven Defender - which is a race-locked PRC requiring significant character investment.
As Pav mentioned earlier, Stone Rage is a very potent feat. Almost entirely negating the Barbarian's AC penalty during rage will save you more than an extra one or two damage shaved off each connected attack, since a few AC can make a very real difference between getting hit and not.
Barbarians have amazing build diversity. Like a lot of classes, they are best when taken 20 levels of, but - and this is a very large but - there are many builds that incorporate the class and make exceptional use of its unique Rage ability, especially ones that incorporate other melee classes. For example, Barbarian / Ranger / Fighter is an exceptionally strong damage dealer. A Barbarian / Druid can easily cap all of their physical statistics and have exceptional capacity both in ranged, melee, and spellcasting. Bardbarian fist-fighters are almost up to par with monks!
I call red herring! [flaps a fish around]
The context of this conversation is how to improve pure barb build diversity, or at least make it an attractive option compared to a multiclassed build. I don't think anyone would argue that a short dip into barb is a bad thing. Multiclassing will always be a good way to make a competent, rounded character. The issue is how to make a pure barb a more attractive prospect, as a pure fighter has been. As all classes do in their own way.QuoteIn general, this class is exceptionally diverse and its one key, powerful element makes it very desirable for those that can take it.
This is misleading. A multiclassed build is exceptionally diverse. Yes, like any other class, barb has an ability--two, if you count the speed--right out the gate that makes multiclassing into it worthwhile.
Adamantine armor dr can't be pierced with +1 weapon,
Not every other class is good upon multiclassing, depending on your original. A pure class character is almost always restricted to very few effective paths, which is the same case for Barbarians. It doesn't change the fact that a level 20 character of a single class will almost always be same thing as another in terms of playstyle if it was built with efficacy or even semi-efficacy in mind. The tools can differ (as they do with Barbarians using different weapon choices and statistic spreads), but the style remains consistent.
Adamantine armor dr can't be pierced with +1 weapon,
You're right. +3.
I've watched a lvl 12 Barbarian and a lvl 12 wizard duo level 15+ dungeons. You are forgetting the immunity to sneak attacks as well that Barbarians get thanks to uncanny dodge. Simply put with all the enormous power upgrades Barbarians got with their unique feats as well as access to other variety of boosts, this whole conversation feels a bit daft. If you play a barbarian that doesnt feel strong, I'd wager you didnt build them right, because theres clear and horrendous evidence of what happens when you do.
Only things I can see that Barbarians would need would be things like -
Some kind of Last Stand feat. While raging, if you would be knocked to unconscious, heal back to half HP, but rage fades and exhaustion kicks in (even if you have Tireless Rage). Requires Back to the Wall, Die Hard, Barbarian Rage as a prerequisites. Fighting till your last breath, and then some, like Hercules from Fate/Stay Night. If you're in a bad spot you're probably going to still be in one though and worse off after moving forward but it gives that heroic barbarian feel I think. It would also prevent people from dying to rage fading out while unconscious.
Perhaps it is OP but it matches how I see a barbarian, as some juggernaut that's going to sustain heavy damage and still keep fighting regardless, and those that share that vision will be taking the additional feats that represent that vision. It's supposed to be a very high cost concept to survive a situation you don't want to remain in, with a forced cooldown period to prevent it from being continuously activated in any given encounter.
Also it's rather daft for people to make assumptions where there is oppurtunity for improvement. Regardless of upgrades there is laways something to improve or better.
Regardless of enormous evidance not all people have the advantages of others or specialities. Some not as equally privy.
I’m not entirely certain barb15/sorc5 is what I would call an advantage over a straight barb.
Also, to address an earlier and incorrect point by Craught, Spell Resistance from Mystic Rage is much better than what is obtained from a Greater Spell Resistance Potion. A Greater Spell Resistance Potion gives SR 21 (12 + 9 caster levels.) Mystic Rage gives a maximum of Spell Resistance 32. This is a huge difference.
You lose both of these things when you multiclass, so I don't see what's so jaw-dropping about the suggestion of staying pure class. It's not like pure Fighter, which is weaker than Rogue 5/Fighter 15 in virtually every way that matters; there are clear and evident advantages to Barb 20 now.
My point was that getting that SR has far too high an opportunity cost.
It's not jaw-dropping, but to my knowledge, it's only done for purely thematic reasons. No one should go pure barb for the mechanical power when Rogue 5/Barb 15 gives you the same 20 levels of Uncanny Dodge to negate flanking*, plus all the lovely Rogue Skills and Sneak Attacks in return for a small loss of AB and HP. Dramatically more utility and survivability is gained for a small loss of specialization as a heavy-hitting brute, the same as the dilemma between going pure Fighter or Rogue 5/Fighter 15.
*I'm not 100% certain Uncanny Dodge stacks when multiclassing in the classes that have it for the purpose of preventing flanking. I recall an informal confirmation on Discord, but there's nothing official on the wiki. If it's false, that at least is a good argument for going pure barb.
I'd just support anything that would keep your own rage from killing you.
I'd just support anything that would keep your own rage from killing you.
+1 biggest drawback and biggest complaint I have about Barbs.
Sheer exhaustion doesn't have to bleeding out, though. As I said, I'd be happy with something that kept my rage from killing me. I'd drop a feat on something that drops me to 0 HP and knocks me out, because exhaustion, sure. But suddenly dropping to -8? I've died more from my own rage than anything else.
Sheer exhaustion doesn't have to bleeding out, though. As I said, I'd be happy with something that kept my rage from killing me. I'd drop a feat on something that drops me to 0 HP and knocks me out, because exhaustion, sure. But suddenly dropping to -8? I've died more from my own rage than anything else.
Yes, the whole idea of the feat is a short burst of power and endurance not an unconquerable ability that won't kill you if not used thoughtfully. Meaning dying to your own rage is a very true to the class thing.
Sheer exhaustion doesn't have to bleeding out, though. As I said, I'd be happy with something that kept my rage from killing me. I'd drop a feat on something that drops me to 0 HP and knocks me out, because exhaustion, sure. But suddenly dropping to -8? I've died more from my own rage than anything else.
Sheer exhaustion doesn't have to bleeding out, though. As I said, I'd be happy with something that kept my rage from killing me. I'd drop a feat on something that drops me to 0 HP and knocks me out, because exhaustion, sure. But suddenly dropping to -8? I've died more from my own rage than anything else.
This. I've played a Barb twice on this server and in both cases I had a tendency to avoid actually using my rage for this reason. The situation where I actually needed rage was the situation where rage was most likely to kill me.
I wouldn't care if rage could drop you to 0HP. The problem would come when you'd go down and be at -1, then a second later instantly corpse because your rage wore out. In the fight where you needed it most, Rage winds up being a liability as much as a benefit.
The situation where I actually needed rage was the situation where rage was most likely to kill me.
Again, sudden exhaustion does not leave one laying in a pool of their own blood bleeding out.
But this is PotM. Leave your logic at the door, and strap on your helmet because nothing makes sense anymore.
Rage (Ex)
A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies).
A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter. At 1st level he can use his rage ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level). Entering a rage takes no time itself, but a barbarian can do it only during his action, not in response to someone else’s action.
TL:DR - sudden exhaustion doesn't leave you in a pool of blood unless you'd actually be dead from injuries sustained. In which case it does.
Again, sudden exhaustion does not leave one laying in a pool of their own blood bleeding out.
But this is PotM. Leave your logic at the door, and strap on your helmet because nothing makes sense anymore.
I’m not entirely certain barb15/sorc5 is what I would call an advantage over a straight barb.
Also it's rather daft for people to make assumptions where there is oppurtunity for improvement. Regardless of upgrades there is laways something to improve or better.
This doesn't mean anything. "There is always something to improve" -- not arbitrarily. Strong things don't need to be further improved while other things languish. Weaker classes should be improved first before strong classes are boosted. This isn't "daft", this simply trying to keep an eye on balance.
If it doesnt mean anything then why comment? At the moment it may not need to improve per opinions. But, it can be I don't see the point to this comment. As for weaker classes I dont know what is xonsidered a weak class in Ravenloft. Dont think I ever heard of weak classes till this came upQuoteRegardless of enormous evidance not all people have the advantages of others or specialities. Some not as equally privy.
I'm not really clear on your point here. Are you trying to imply that your opinion is worth more than other people's because you explore sub-optimal scenarios? We shouldn't ignore evidence of what a pure Barb is capable of simply because some people choose not to minmax their characters.
Again dont think my opinion is higher than others. We simply noted the same thing just in diffrence of opinion.
I've seen high level Pure Barbs, they're hella strong now. A level 20 Barb with Reckless Rage can pop +10 Strength with one click. No-one else can do this. They're terrifying and can challenge any class.
Also, to address an earlier and incorrect point by Craught, Spell Resistance from Mystic Rage is much better than what is obtained from a Greater Spell Resistance Potion. A Greater Spell Resistance Potion gives SR 21 (12 + 9 caster levels.) Mystic Rage gives a maximum of Spell Resistance 32. This is a huge difference.
You lose both of these things when you multiclass, so I don't see what's so jaw-dropping about the suggestion of staying pure class. It's not like pure Fighter, which is weaker than Rogue 5/Fighter 15 in virtually every way that matters; there are clear and evident advantages to Barb 20 now.