It likely could be however would be easily abuse-able, such as making it decrease said Sneaking Character’s stats to - levels for a moment to allow others to see them.
That’s what I meant by it being abused yes.
Would you like for this to be a thing however if it was possible?
Ultimately there needs to be some sort of push back against the extremely high and easily attainable stealth scores happening.
It is simply wrong to ignore the equipment and loot market while focusing solely on the mechanics, given that the prevalence of Stealth gear is obviously meant to address the latter. This is pure cherry-picking.
You cannot separate equipment market from balance.
I'm not cherry-picking as much as I am reducing Stealth vs Detection to its base mechanical equation, which leans in favor of detection.
QuoteUltimately there needs to be some sort of push back against the extremely high and easily attainable stealth scores happening.
The pushback against more people hiding should be more people getting detection skills and spot equipment. Listen equipment is among some of the most inexpensive stuff, too.
And frankly speaking, the stealth/detection mechanic in NWN will always mechanically favor detection. Sneaks need to have a +20 (Usually reaching for a +25) above another player's two detection scores. If they're any less, they will guaranteed be detected, due to the amount of rolls per second. Meanwhile, a character with detection skills only needs to focus on one skill, and doesn't even have to get it as high. There are also more feats available for detection characters.
The only people who should be detecting characters who have invested in the necessary stealth score, are the people who actually invest in detection themselves. The balance is, and always has leaned in favor of detection characters. It still does to this day, no matter any perception of prevalence in stealth equipment.
Edit: In fact, one of the other negative influences against stealth based characters was the extremely high cost and rarity of stealth items. If there's been a chance, this is great news.
The only people who should be detecting characters who have invested in the necessary stealth score, are the people who actually invest in detection themselves. The balance is, and always has leaned in favor of detection characters. It still does to this day, no matter any perception of prevalence in stealth equipment.
NWN is like a comic book, its art helps frame a shared vision of what is going on, but it still does require some theatre of the mind to paint in finer details. If you lack an imagination that explains how someone is in close proximity but you have not noticed them, I would say you are not trying to and based on some stealth balance rhetoric you might not want to. Much like imagining facial expressions described by roleplayed emotes, or the tone of voice inferred by a character's dialgoue you are not being given every specific minute detail your character is experiencing as you play them, you must imagine some of them. You're just picking and choosing when to use your imagination if stealth gets you riled up because its not believable. (and the stealth that works requires magic items and magic spells, you know, magic)
Of course, you are no where close to the sort of mindset where imagination can take root in such a scene if you assume an OOC adversarial competitive spirit about the game rather than a collaborative one. I know that sounds like a platitude and it will fall on some deaf ears but you are not the enemy of the player doing the stealthing, you are his partner in roleplay. It would do much to server morale and fun if you would take the opportunity to help "sell" the believably of the scene by having your character make remarks about "how supernaturally the shadows cling to you, no wonder I did not notice you there" etc. Playing along is what roleplay is all about, every character has strengths, and every player enjoys seeing their character's most accomplished abilities come into play from time to time. It does not hurt anything to assist the other player in portraying their strengths when they come into play. A character that is sneaking past a group on this server has been built since day one to be able to achieve such a feat. Roll with the scene, if you are the one character that has spotted the skulking knave then confront them and demand they speak for their actions. Surely by doing so, the onus is now on the stealthed player to drop stealth and roleplay a dismay at having been spotted and thus allowing the others to get involved. This takes trust, and a focus on the scene first and foremost. Both of these attributes are in increasingly short supply on PotM. Players are only hurting their self by playing this way, there is a better way for all but you must dedicate to it.
But even if you just cannot bring yourself to approach such an aspect of the game such as stealth with a cooperative mindset, you still are being a spoilsport if you would rather focus on your inability to imagine why its even possible for them to do it rather than to play along. Its the opposite of cheesing to stealth that well, its completely backed up by the game.
One thing I have seen a server do is allow a Player Tool be used as a "Call out" command, where the PC calls out an enemy, it forced them to say something out loud (so they couldn't silently screw people over) and the targeted person gets a hide/ms debuff of like 25 for a single round to give other people a better chance of spotting them that round, and it had a cooldown on it of like 30 seconds so you can't spam it. Not sure how viable that would be here, or if we'd even want to add it, but it was neat in the environment of that other server.
NWN is like a comic book, its art helps frame a shared vision of what is going on, but it still does require some theatre of the mind to paint in finer details. If you lack an imagination that explains how someone is in close proximity but you have not noticed them, I would say you are not trying to and based on some stealth balance rhetoric you might not want to. Much like imagining facial expressions described by roleplayed emotes, or the tone of voice inferred by a character's dialgoue you are not being given every specific minute detail your character is experiencing as you play them, you must imagine some of them. You're just picking and choosing when to use your imagination if stealth gets you riled up because its not believable. (and the stealth that works requires magic items and magic spells, you know, magic)
Of course, you are no where close to the sort of mindset where imagination can take root in such a scene if you assume an OOC adversarial competitive spirit about the game rather than a collaborative one. I know that sounds like a platitude and it will fall on some deaf ears but you are not the enemy of the player doing the stealthing, you are his partner in roleplay. It would do much to server morale and fun if you would take the opportunity to help "sell" the believably of the scene by having your character make remarks about "how supernaturally the shadows cling to you, no wonder I did not notice you there" etc. Playing along is what roleplay is all about, every character has strengths, and every player enjoys seeing their character's most accomplished abilities come into play from time to time. It does not hurt anything to assist the other player in portraying their strengths when they come into play. A character that is sneaking past a group on this server has been built since day one to be able to achieve such a feat. Roll with the scene, if you are the one character that has spotted the skulking knave then confront them and demand they speak for their actions. Surely by doing so, the onus is now on the stealthed player to drop stealth and roleplay a dismay at having been spotted and thus allowing the others to get involved. This takes trust, and a focus on the scene first and foremost. Both of these attributes are in increasingly short supply on PotM. Players are only hurting their self by playing this way, there is a better way for all but you must dedicate to it.
But even if you just cannot bring yourself to approach such an aspect of the game such as stealth with a cooperative mindset, you still are being a spoilsport if you would rather focus on your inability to imagine why its even possible for them to do it rather than to play along. Its the opposite of cheesing to stealth that well, its completely backed up by the game.
+1
I agree so much with many of these points.
People who are driven primarily by PvP considerations and the desire for mechanical advantage really are missing out on what can be accomplished through looking for collaboration and enhancing the experience of others as well as themselves.
The game and its engine are limited; our imaginations aren't.
People will make an argument to justify their means or merit of their conversation in just about every instance, I don't believe saying, 'A lack of imagination,' is an adequate rebuttal.
[Y]ou are no where close to the sort of mindset where imagination can take root in such a scene if you assume an OOC adversarial competitive spirit about the game rather than a collaborative one.
To rein it in, I'll use an example that happened tonight in game. A PC was on the caravan with approximately six other PCs and stealthing. The rest of us assumed he'd missed the return trip. After we departed the caravan, however, he listened in on a significant conversation that occurred right at the caravan exit. At a crucial moment he revealed himself and conflict occurred.
It would be easy to say that this was just "unrealistic." How could he hide undetected in a crowded caravan with people actually looking around wondering where was. Perhaps he did this!
(https://i.imgur.com/XfOJjiZ.jpg)
What I think CS's point was (and what I agree with) is that, rather than get offended at the PC's ability to stealth right under my PC's nose, "fantastical stealthing" is an element of the game--much like other fantastic elements. If it's become unbalanced, then perhaps it needs adjusting. But the limits of the game being as they are, we shouldn't all be looking for any excuse to cry "exploit."
(When I enter a doorway and am worried about being followed, you'd better believe I stand in it until I can get the door shut and preferably locked! If that's an exploit, it's news to me.)
QuotePeople will make an argument to justify their means or merit of their conversation in just about every instance, I don't believe saying, 'A lack of imagination,' is an adequate rebuttal.
That wasn't the entire post :D
I said I agreed with "so many of these points." Including this:Quote[Y]ou are no where close to the sort of mindset where imagination can take root in such a scene if you assume an OOC adversarial competitive spirit about the game rather than a collaborative one.
I'm not going to name names, but I can think of two players right off the top of my head who most everyone on the server would say are/were great RPers and great to play with. (One no longer "plays.")
I've interacted with both in what were ICly adverarial relationships. But in both cases, these players and I were sending Tells to one another and cooperating to create the scene. I trusted both of those players that our mutual goal (whatever our adversarial relationship IC) was to be creative and have fun.
It's roleplay, in which any competition should not be about ganking the other PC...but seeing who can be the most imaginative, clever, and awe-inspiring as a storyteller/character creator. (Note well: No matter how great a star you are, if your supporting cast is terrible, the story is going to be pretty lame. Trying not to steal every scene, therefore, is in a player's own best interest.)
Sometime the creativity will be in coming up with imaginative ways to "win." Perhaps you are the best stealther on the server. Or you set some traps once and used them to incredible advantages. Or you came through with an awesome critical right when you were down to your last two hit points.
All of this expands, however, outside the scope of the topic.
To rein it in, I'll use an example that happened tonight in game. A PC was on the caravan with approximately six other PCs and stealthing. The rest of us assumed he'd missed the return trip. After we departed the caravan, however, he listened in on a significant conversation that occurred right at the caravan exit. At a crucial moment he revealed himself and conflict occurred.
It would be easy to say that this was just "unrealistic." How could he hide undetected in a crowded caravan with people actually looking around wondering where was. Perhaps he did this!
(https://i.imgur.com/XfOJjiZ.jpg)
What I think CS's point was (and what I agree with) is that, rather than get offended at the PC's ability to stealth right under my PC's nose, "fantastical stealthing" is an element of the game--much like other fantastic elements. If it's become unbalanced, then perhaps it needs adjusting. But the limits of the game being as they are, we shouldn't all be looking for any excuse to cry "exploit."
(When I enter a doorway and am worried about being followed, you'd better believe I stand in it until I can get the door shut and preferably locked! If that's an exploit, it's news to me.)