Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Zero Darkon Thirty on October 17, 2018, 08:59:43 PM
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Due to comments and other people's suggestions, I've editted my own. I decided to take out my suggestions that push higher level players away from the outskirts, and instead focused on ways to close the level gap. I can't think of any solution for higher level players and lower level players(anything 12 and below, I'd say) to simultaneously work against Monstrous Players whom are focused/geared toward lower leveled players. The level gap usually makes it a difficult task for the lower level players to fight the antagonist, but doable in numbers, and far too easy for the higher leveled players.
Suggestions:
1) Remove the XP cap until X level. I put this first because I believe it is the most important.
Pushing high level players away from the hub is not the answer, and people have voiced that in the comments, understandably so. I do think the XP cap is a necessity, especially around the level 12 area. I'd say 8 should be the lowest, as most builds start to feel useful at that level, but 10 would be a happy medium. At level 10, you're formidable. This suggestion has the clear outcome of increasing the overall average level of the playerbase, and so AMPCs will have to be adjusted accordingly. Strong enough to pose a threat to level 10's should be enough to not be fly on the wall for level 15-19's with some enchanted gear. If you're level 20 with full enchants, try be considerate.
The purpose of this suggestion is not entirely for faster leveling. I've just returned to the server and I've found it is faster than before, and not a bad pace at all. I, personally, think that the effects of a level gap weren't taken into account when the XP cap was designed. Due to the major differences, a lot of lower tier antagonism is weak in respects to the strongest of characters. Higher levels on average=stronger antagonists=everyone involved. I'm sure some will say not to focus on levels, and I hear ya, at level 6 which is easily hit, you can usually engage in some fun interaction with Barovian AMPCs. I just find these interactions to be sparse, and I think reducing the level gap will make them less so. Imagine, for instance, everyone were level 20., not that I want them all to be. I'm sure the Dms would have no trouble messing with people in the outskirts, nor would Monstrous Players. Things like that would happen commonly, as they should in this setting.
2) Higher level plot lines in certain Barovian areas.
I still like this idea, because if I ever get around to level a character past 12, Barovia is my favorite setting that is in game. I'd hate to forced to run off to Dementlieu to get tied into some cool plot lines.
3) My third suggestion, and it has been suggested before by aprogressivist is RP hub zones where RP XP is increased.
I don't imagine this would be very hard to code, seeing as they have already made areas give reduced XP to higher levels. This particular suggestion has A LOT of potential good to come out of it. Whether it be encouraging RP in other zones to encouraging players to stay indoors at night for a more immersive feel. Krofburg, Watcher territory, Vallaki's various taverns and inns, perhaps even the tavern in the outskirts are good, potential locations.
Other potential locations, taken from aprogressivist's post:
- The Broken Bell
- The Drain
- The slums Morninglord Church
- The Ezrite Refuge of Fifth Light
- The Great Library in Port
- The Golden Fig and a few other cafes and eateries in Port
- The Halan Hospices in Port
- The Ezrite Cathedral in Port
4) A way to transfer a % of XP between characters, once one is closured by choice- not killed by other players and corpse hidden. Only characters that have reached X (for the staff to decide) level should qualify.
I'll leave it up to the staff to determine what is a reasonable % of XP to transfer, if this is even implemented. Once you've reached level XX and have all that great enchanted gear, and the story line you've been trying to push isn't working, maybe you want to try a new concept, but don't want to lose potential years of dedication to the server. The above suggestion can fix this. Not something that I imagine is very hard, just somewhat time-consuming for DMs. Could be application based, but I don't really think someone needs that great of a reason to quit a character they've played for years- they want to move on, so be it.
Thanks to all who have and who will participate in the comments, or read the post. Not sure if it is my excellent marketing skills, but this got a lot more views in a day than some do in a month. Please keep the suggestions flowing, and if you agree with any, drop a quote and some reasons. It'll let the staff know if the community actually wants to see things change.
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I actually dislike the general concept of keeping higher levels away from Vallaki. Most supported factions are currently there, as opposed to the 1.5 in Port-à-Lucine (Gendarmes and Port RVT).
I think that instead of implementing mechanics (removal of RP exp for level 15+ in all west Barovia pls go) we need to enforce responsible play in a harsher manner, as a community.
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I personally find it difficult to keep the fearful atmosphere of the western outskirts alive, especially at night, when there are higher levels present to easily defeat any challenges I throw towards the newer, lower level players. Likewise, if I brought in challenges to defeat the high levels, they would unfairly demolish the lower levels in the crossfire.
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I actually dislike the general concept of keeping higher levels away from Vallaki. Most supported factions are currently there, as opposed to the 1.5 in Port-à-Lucine (Gendarmes and Port RVT).
I think that instead of implementing mechanics (removal of RP exp for level 15+ in all west Barovia pls go) we need to enforce responsible play in a harsher manner, as a community.
I'd like to add that I disagree with the XP reduction past a certain level for the most part. I do think such an implementation is good in say the outskirts, but not Vallaki itself. I'm unsure if it's domain locked, so people in Krofburg at lvl 12 or so won't get XP from RP (which would be terrible.) That's not even mentioning Watcher land, which has some pretty strong werewolves and could serve as a hub for higher leveled character as well. A cool thing that will probably go unused would be a way to stop XP progression in its entirety. Players that reach a specific level and want to remain in say, Krofburg, and actually feel some degree of challenge when faced against threats might find it appealing.
Personally, I don't see the responsible play thing working, unless you could elaborate on how we could be more harsh about it without flaming.
I personally find it difficult to keep the fearful atmosphere of the western outskirts alive, especially at night, when there are higher levels present to easily defeat any challenges I throw towards the newer, lower level players. Likewise, if I brought in challenges to defeat the high levels, they would unfairly demolish the lower levels in the crossfire.
In my mind- just do it. The more dangerous it is, and if it happens when people are outside, people will just stop tempting the night. A low level will learn their lesson all the same about staying outside at night whether a single zombie demolishes them, or a lvl 20 vampire with blood oozes kills them and everyone else in the outskirts, and the healer in the chapel. I've actually seen that happen, and my paladin stopped staying outside at night, but eventually I started doing it again because a) the threat is no longer there and b) there's not much RP indoors usually.
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It is region-based, as far as I can tell, to everything past the Mists at Tser Falls to the west. That includes Wachter, Berez, Krofburg, Vallaki, and the wild.
It's too much.
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It is region-based, as far as I can tell, to everything past the Mists at Tser Falls to the west. That includes Wachter, Berez, Krofburg, Vallaki, and the wild.
It's too much.
Yeah, that's far too extensive. The only zone I'd actually think that an actual XP reduction is worth implementing in is the outskirts themelves and maybe some areas north/south where you may encounter a lower level AMPC/MPC. Even Vallaki is fine without the reduction. It allows factional players of high level to RP in that area without risk of ending an MPC in a very anticlimactic way. I'm sure most Monstrous players are vampires for that reason alone- you get to respawn.
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I am very much against separating the characters on the server based on level. The more the characters mingle, the better for all.
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Having fought this battle twice, I have little interest in fighting it again.
At some point you no longer get adventure XP for killing rats.
So I guess at some point you no longer get RP XP for being in certain areas. That's the breaks.
I don't agree with it and it creates OOC motivations that affect RP, but I've adjusted to it.
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Having fought this battle twice, I have little interest in fighting it again.
At some point you no longer get adventure XP for killing rats.
So I guess at some point you no longer get RP XP for being in certain areas. That's the breaks.
I don't agree with it and it creates OOC motivations that affect RP, but I've adjusted to it.
There's no battle to fight. I'm opposed to pushing the players out of Barovia, only out of the outskirts, and the general wilderness around it, where most AMPCs and MPCS do their thing.
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Being level 12 as it is, 98% of my RP is entirely RP based, removing RP XP at any level, tells a player that RP is secondary to PVE which I do not believe is the long term goal of the server, but thats just my opinion. I have a long way to go to 20, but its something for our DMs and Devs to consider server wide if this is really the message they wish to convey.
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Being level 12 as it is, 98% of my RP is entirely RP based, removing RP XP at any level, tells a player that RP is secondary to PVE which I do not believe is the long term goal of the server, but thats just my opinion. I have a long way to go to 20, but its something for our DMs and Devs to consider server wide if this is really the message they wish to convey.
Exactly:
They can either get a better chance at enforcing the gothic horror setting they're founded on, or watch level 20's hang around the outskirts making it a great deal less scary for those lower level players trying to immerse themself. It's their choice what message they wish to convey.
I am very much against separating the characters on the server based on level. The more the characters mingle, the better for all.
That's entirely subjective. I'd say the presence of higher level characters in the outskirts has ruined the immersive feel of gothic horror because I know I am eternally safe under their vigil.
All in all, if you have a leveling system, there's going to be gaps. When those gaps exist, it will make it harder to portray a gothic horror setting because there's no way to balance things for a level 5, 12, and 20 alike. If they do figure something out, great, I'm just offering potential solutions. Barovia, at least the global "hub" of the outskirts at the moment is focused for somewhere between 2-11. At some point, you are simply too strong for lower leveled antagonists in that region. whether it be NPCs, MPCs, AMPCs, or DMs.
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If you ask me the whole outskirts triangle is just bad design (and convenient).
You have a large dungeon in the church with lots of loot and a npc healer/reviver and +1 weapon pool.
If the healer is not enough to keep you spamming the crypts you can quickly visit the Lady's Rest and then sell/identify everything in the Vistani camp and you probably get better prices for most items than from inside the city.
And that's why everyone sits on the area in the middle, while the city next door is barren and empty of all people.
When ever I play a lowlevel, I try my best to get people go with me to the COOL dungeons around Vallaki that have changing placeables and enemies (Why don't we have these in high level dungeons?) but no one really wants to move, much to my disappointment.
Solution? Nuke the outskirts as we know them.
Make the crypts accessible only at certain hours? Give the npc priest a break so she can sleep her nights?
Have the vistani camp disappear from time to time? (Aren't they supposed to be travellers?)
Close the inn, make it more expensive or turn it in to a tavern only?
Have garda forbid selling goods outside the market district? Back in olden days most market towns had walls or fences, not for war but to force people to pay a toll/tax when they enter with their salesgoods.
Everyone will probably hate me for suggesting these radical and inconvenient ideas but I would just like to see the town come alive. People in the streets, people in the inns and bars. MPC's could stalk the numerous alleys instead of just one building.
In Port-a-Lucine you often meet people in the streets. In Vallaki that hardly ever happens. Of course the two towns are also built differently which also affects this.
That's what I think anyway.
More on the topic on hand, I wish the high levels that do hang around the outskirts would have more consideration.
I have seen a high level priest jump from GS (back when we still had that) and with out a word smash down an MPC who was speaking to some players.
And that would have been fine, but when it tried to escape, it was chased, corpsed and closured on what I think was its first appearance.
Also it would be nice to have rp xp in places like the Wachter province no matter what your level is, hardly anything happens in the west.
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If you ask me the whole outskirts triangle is just bad design (and convenient).
You have a large dungeon in the church with lots of loot and a npc healer/reviver and +1 weapon pool.
If the healer is not enough to keep you spamming the crypts you can quickly visit the Lady's Rest and then sell/identify everything in the Vistani camp and you probably get better prices for most items than from inside the city.
And that's why everyone sits on the area in the middle, while the city next door is barren and empty of all people.
When ever I play a lowlevel, I try my best to get people go with me to the COOL dungeons around Vallaki that have changing placeables and enemies (Why don't we have these in high level dungeons?) but no one really wants to move, much to my disappointment.
Solution? Nuke the outskirts as we know them.
Make the crypts accessible only at certain hours? Give the npc priest a break so she can sleep her nights?
Have the vistani camp disappear from time to time? (Aren't they supposed to be travellers?)
Close the inn, make it more expensive or turn it in to a tavern only?
Have garda forbid selling goods outside the market district? Back in olden days most market towns had walls or fences, not for war but to force people to pay a toll/tax when they enter with their salesgoods.
Everyone will probably hate me for suggesting these radical and inconvenient ideas but I would just like to see the town come alive. People in the streets, people in the inns and bars. MPC's could stalk the numerous alleys instead of just one building.
In Port-a-Lucine you often meet people in the streets. In Vallaki that hardly ever happens. Of course the two towns are also built differently which also affects this.
That's what I think anyway.
More on the topic on hand, I wish the high levels that do hang around the outskirts would have more consideration.
I have seen a high level priest jump from GS (back when we still had that) and with out a word smash down an MPC who was speaking to some players.
And that would have been fine, but when it tried to escape, it was chased, corpsed and closured on what I think was its first appearance.
Also it would be nice to have rp xp in places like the Wachter province no matter what your level is, hardly anything happens in the west.
Radical ideas indeed, but I see what you're suggesting. Take into consideration the outskirts is mainly designed for new players as well. The Vistani cavern introduces people to the setting that just hopped in game. Do veterans need it? No, but it was really cool to talk to the Madame and all that other fun stuff my first time playing. Some of them may be nice to see implemented, but for the most part I think due to Barovian xenophobia, the outskirts is best suited as the "hub." Seeing more people in Vallaki would be great though, and some XP hubs there would be great. Thieves, wererats, MPCS, etc could stalk the alleys, assuming anyone actually goes outside, or is RPing in the city in the first place.
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If you ask me the whole outskirts triangle is just bad design (and convenient).
You have a large dungeon in the church with lots of loot and a npc healer/reviver and +1 weapon pool.
If the healer is not enough to keep you spamming the crypts you can quickly visit the Lady's Rest and then sell/identify everything in the Vistani camp and you probably get better prices for most items than from inside the city.
And that's why everyone sits on the area in the middle, while the city next door is barren and empty of all people.
When ever I play a lowlevel, I try my best to get people go with me to the COOL dungeons around Vallaki that have changing placeables and enemies (Why don't we have these in high level dungeons?) but no one really wants to move, much to my disappointment.
Solution? Nuke the outskirts as we know them.
Make the crypts accessible only at certain hours? Give the npc priest a break so she can sleep her nights?
Have the vistani camp disappear from time to time? (Aren't they supposed to be travellers?)
Close the inn, make it more expensive or turn it in to a tavern only?
Have garda forbid selling goods outside the market district? Back in olden days most market towns had walls or fences, not for war but to force people to pay a toll/tax when they enter with their salesgoods.
Everyone will probably hate me for suggesting these radical and inconvenient ideas but I would just like to see the town come alive. People in the streets, people in the inns and bars. MPC's could stalk the numerous alleys instead of just one building.
In Port-a-Lucine you often meet people in the streets. In Vallaki that hardly ever happens. Of course the two towns are also built differently which also affects this.
That's what I think anyway.
More on the topic on hand, I wish the high levels that do hang around the outskirts would have more consideration.
I have seen a high level priest jump from GS (back when we still had that) and with out a word smash down an MPC who was speaking to some players.
And that would have been fine, but when it tried to escape, it was chased, corpsed and closured on what I think was its first appearance.
Also it would be nice to have rp xp in places like the Wachter province no matter what your level is, hardly anything happens in the west.
The biggest issue you'll come across with this is that Vallaki is a Barovian city. Barovians are notoriously distrustful and sometimes hostile towards outlanders, especially those of other races. The city itself isn't meant to be a hub imo, more a big hunk of grey stone to remind you who owns the place
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The point about Vallaki is correct. There is another - Dementlieu has outdoors that are safe to travel at night. Vallaki does not. It not only isn't safe at night, it is also not welcoming to outlanders. This combination means that you don't see people walking the streets much at night or day because you're not supposed to see them.
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I have witnessed multiple AMPCs that hang the so-called high level lingerers of Vallaki and it's environs out to dry quite thoroughly. If it's an issue for DMs trying to run scenes, I'd just start having high levels get mist-abducted to somewhere fun, personally. Maybe the middle of Perfidus.
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I have witnessed multiple AMPCs that hang the so-called high level lingerers of Vallaki and it's environs out to dry quite thoroughly. If it's an issue for DMs trying to run scenes, I'd just start having high levels get mist-abducted to somewhere fun, personally. Maybe the middle of Perfidus.
That would be pretty thrilling
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The real issue is that the Outskirts brings together a great collection of players, especially newer players, so the red-dead mentality is also more greatly concentrated there. This isn't merely lvl 20s, though being more powerful it's more noticeable when they resort to red-dead; but I've had bad encounters as an AMPC in the Outskirts with level equivalent characters.
I agree that lvl 20s should be encouraged to leave, but the issue runs deeper.
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The biggest issue you'll come across with this is that Vallaki is a Barovian city. Barovians are notoriously distrustful and sometimes hostile towards outlanders, especially those of other races. The city itself isn't meant to be a hub imo, more a big hunk of grey stone to remind you who owns the place
Xenophopic or not, Vallaki is a trade city with booming economy in the middle of Barovia, in the middle of Old Svalich Road and in the middle of the whole Core.
At any case it would make more sense for the foreign traders and locals PC's to spend their time inside the city rather than outside, which at the moment is not the case.
It probably should be safer inside the city walls than outside, which also is not the case because of this cluster of people that forms in the outskirts.
No, I don't believe those six big city areas were designed to be as empty as they are.
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The biggest issue you'll come across with this is that Vallaki is a Barovian city. Barovians are notoriously distrustful and sometimes hostile towards outlanders, especially those of other races. The city itself isn't meant to be a hub imo, more a big hunk of grey stone to remind you who owns the place
Xenophopic or not, Vallaki is a trade city with booming economy in the middle of Barovia, in the middle of Old Svalich Road and in the middle of the whole Core.
At any case it would make more sense for the foreign traders and locals PC's to spend their time inside the city rather than outside, which at the moment is not the case.
It probably should be safer inside the city walls than outside, which also is not the case because of this cluster of people that forms in the outskirts.
No, I don't believe those six big city areas were designed to be as empty as they are.
This is also an issue with trying to follow canon to the letter. Because canonically, Vallaki residents would be xenophobic and hateful and whatnot. But in a persistent world like PotM, Vallaki has been host to -literally thousands of outlanders for over ten years-. Trying for force the outlander hate to the letter for the sake of canon, and ignoring the fact that people adapt is frankly unrealistic and thus breaking of immersion. There are certain points that must break from canon for a persistent world to be maintained. Because the canon was written and designed for tabletop D&D. Small sessions with limited players with very clear objectives. PotM is a thriving, living world. An entirely different beast than what the canon was meant to cater to. Thus, concessions have to be made here and there.
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I agree with many of these points and have seen them made many times now (including by me) and seen them disregarded because of--for shorthand--what I will call "creative vision." The Devs (or at least some Devs) have a vision that conflicts with players' interest. I don't say that is inherently wrong or a bad thing because Devs are the creators of what we enjoy, and we (as players) must appreciate that they are not here to be our slavish servants but because they want to express their personal visions.
Something that occurs to me now, though, in reading these same points again that might be new is this:
1) The players (including me) have long advocated for making VoB a place in which the setting many of us come here for and which fits the PCs we've developed is maintained.
2) The Devs have said VoB is meant to be scary and isolated, so it can't ever be a hub.
3) The recent changes to door locking make VoB even less a place where PCs can hang out.
4) The DMs say what is wrong with having high levels in Vallaki is it makes encounters hard to balance and thus ruins the atmosphere for low levels.
Why not, then, raise the threat level in VoB? Currently it is actually safer than Vallaki. But with the locking of doors, it's hard to do *anything* except hang around in the massive Blood o' the Vine, usually in isolation.
Instead of the wererats, have vampire spawns roaming the streets at night. Strahd zombies. Ghosts. There must be some reason for all the door locking!
This would help maintain the reason for the Village's isolation and dread, while at the same time give higher levels (who prefer Barovia) a challenge to divert them from the Outskirts.
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Another idea: These spawns could drop crafting components, eliminating another reason high levels return to Western Barovia.
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The biggest issue you'll come across with this is that Vallaki is a Barovian city. Barovians are notoriously distrustful and sometimes hostile towards outlanders, especially those of other races. The city itself isn't meant to be a hub imo, more a big hunk of grey stone to remind you who owns the place
Xenophopic or not, Vallaki is a trade city with booming economy in the middle of Barovia, in the middle of Old Svalich Road and in the middle of the whole Core.
At any case it would make more sense for the foreign traders and locals PC's to spend their time inside the city rather than outside, which at the moment is not the case.
It probably should be safer inside the city walls than outside, which also is not the case because of this cluster of people that forms in the outskirts.
No, I don't believe those six big city areas were designed to be as empty as they are.
This is also an issue with trying to follow canon to the letter. Because canonically, Vallaki residents would be xenophobic and hateful and whatnot. But in a persistent world like PotM, Vallaki has been host to -literally thousands of outlanders for over ten years-. Trying for force the outlander hate to the letter for the sake of canon, and ignoring the fact that people adapt is frankly unrealistic and thus breaking of immersion. There are certain points that must break from canon for a persistent world to be maintained. Because the canon was written and designed for tabletop D&D. Small sessions with limited players with very clear objectives. PotM is a thriving, living world. An entirely different beast than what the canon was meant to cater to. Thus, concessions have to be made here and there.
Going to firmly side against this, for a very simple reason. Outlanders are, to be blunt, horrible people who have made life absolutely craptastic for Barovians for over ten years. Outlanders have killed more natives that Strahd or his minions. Outlanders have dropped more hideous atrocities onto natives than most of the monsters of Barovia -combined-.
If anything, the xenophobia should be MUCH worse. As in, kill on sight worse, nail them to the walls of the city worse, make them utterly unwelcome by killing them ALL worse. These outlander troublemakers causing mayhem, murder, dark vraja, you name it! The hate is underplayed, and it doesn't take much observation to see that. They're a backwards people who are constantly under assault from reckless, violent outsiders who demand that the world change to suit their whims. They're not welcome sights, they're closer to terrorists.
There is another very simple reason. There must be maintenance of basic canon because when you move away from it too far, you end up with some truly ludicrous changes that become more and more apparent over time. This adherence means new players can enter the world and read the books and get at least something close to the experience written about. If you abandon that, you create a playground that suits the veterans over the new people. And you end up with some frankly rather weird settings and places that just don't make much sense. Perfect example of that was the Harry Potter server - except it didn't have Harry in it, the House conflicts didn't exist, the lore was rewritten and the big bad was some sort of space marine in anti magic armour. It was, aside from the places and some of the NPC's, so disjointed and removed from the books that it became rapidly apparent that it was purely for the people who had been playing there, and outsiders had no foot to stand on - and were not really welcome. This place isn't that - thank goodness - and I hope it never is.
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I've held to my belief that those who are a higher level and in the low-level areas -should- be taking to roleplaying first rather than straight up pvp.
Nem is absolutely right. I agree that Vallaki has become waaaaaay too tolerant of outlanders, but that is up to us as players to help fix :)
Overall I don't think we should alienate higher level characters from anywhere since the whole purpose of the server is to roleplay, to create a shared narrative. Higher level characters can still RP with low levels and offer them guidance or what have you, just because of their level doesn't mean they can't enrich the setting or stories
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Equally outlanders have also saved the city from doom countless times, killed menacing monsters, found and rescued missing people and fought against foreign invasions.
But I just like to think that foreign trade is the lifeblood of the town and that's why outlanders are tolerated.
This is getting off topic however.
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Equally outlanders have also saved the city from doom countless times, killed menacing monsters, found and rescued missing people and fought against foreign invasions.
A point I was going to make. Just as many have done good by the Barovians as have done evil. After a decade of that, it's unlikely there'd be a blanket 'all outlanders are terrorists' mentality.
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In my opinion, much of the server was designed to cater toward a player peak of around 13-14. In the last 2 years or so, there has been a noticeable increase in higher level players. It's simply a product of an aging community, and I don't know that there's any substantial fix to it. Unless we want to address radical changes that will undoubtedly upset some of these players, I think we should just change the way we approach horror.
It's not a viable solution to separate players from other players. Even if they destroy a mechanical fear, asking a higher level player to avoid interaction or purposefully handicap themselves ends up subjecting that player to numerous OOC loops. Like, now they have to justify not swinging their sword as hard as they could when their friend is in imminent danger, or they have to somehow find fun in isolation (Which is exactly the opposite of what this game is intended to do. It's a social interaction game, end stop).
My best suggestion would be to concede the outskirts. Just because that's where the people are, doesn't mean that's where we need to throw the most horror. Create plots that draw interested people away. Tailor these plots so that they begin by being naturally uninteresting to higher level PC's. For instance, maybe some low level characters grinding in the Skeleton Tower find some sort of clue that urges them to explore another hideaway, and there they find some Big Bad, or some damsel in distress, etc etc.
Playing adjacently to a hub has its own hurdles. Some players will lose interest, or activity, or stories will progress far slower. But at least you have the ability to craft a story that doesn't end with you getting horrendously ganked mid-conversation in the outskirts. It just takes more patience, more set up, more legwork.
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And my other opinion is that anyone who's made it to level 17+ deserves their own personal nemesis. They've played a character for literally ages. They've played for so long that the only way they would ever willingly closure their characters is to have an ending that respects the amount of time they've put into developing the character (It becomes a catch 22 of potential stagnancy). It's a tall order, to be honest. But I would highly suggest that high level players and DM's be receptive to personalizing story conclusions. And hell, it might make it so that higher level players are less willing to get involved in more trouble because they're already being pursued by some vindictive plotline, and they're already looking over their shoulder.
It could end up being a nice thing too, for players who reach that point. They would get the promise of a more personalized plot that would try to encompass their story, and give them a meaningful climax to their character arc. There's just no reason, imo, that a character should remain level 20 for a year or more. The DM's and the Player himself should expect that there should be a climatic end, and the DM's should be willing and able to help meaningfully deliver that. Hell, you could even have an OOC sit down with a high level player and a DM to talk about the character's story, driving motivations, and get an idea for what might make for a compelling climax.
And if that became a norm, too, you might even see less players rush into peak levels. They might take their time Rping and exploring their stories in the upper mid levels. Food for thought!
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Equally outlanders have also saved the city from doom countless times, killed menacing monsters, found and rescued missing people and fought against foreign invasions.
But I just like to think that foreign trade is the lifeblood of the town and that's why outlanders are tolerated.
This is getting off topic however.
Very very limited in their tolerance, and almost 0 tolerance for other races than humans due to the barovian belief in magic twisting and deforming humans into monsters, which has happened often enough that they rightfully fear it.
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And my other opinion is that anyone who's made it to level 17+ deserves their own personal nemesis. They've played a character for literally ages. They've played for so long that the only way they would ever willingly closure their characters is to have an ending that respects the amount of time they've put into developing the character (It becomes a catch 22 of potential stagnancy). It's a tall order, to be honest. But I would highly suggest that high level players and DM's be receptive to personalizing story conclusions. And hell, it might make it so that higher level players are less willing to get involved in more trouble because they're already being pursued by some vindictive plotline, and they're already looking over their shoulder.
It could end up being a nice thing too, for players who reach that point. They would get the promise of a more personalized plot that would try to encompass their story, and give them a meaningful climax to their character arc. There's just no reason, imo, that a character should remain level 20 for a year or more. The DM's and the Player himself should expect that there should be a climatic end, and the DM's should be willing and able to help meaningfully deliver that. Hell, you could even have an OOC sit down with a high level player and a DM to talk about the character's story, driving motivations, and get an idea for what might make for a compelling climax.
And if that became a norm, too, you might even see less players rush into peak levels. They might take their time Rping and exploring their stories in the upper mid levels. Food for thought!
+1
This requires a lot of work, but excellence doesn't come easy. If we want POTM to be excellent, it's not going to happen through kludges and hamfisted "solutions."
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I like the concept of moving higher levels out of vallaki. And here's why:
1. Vallaki/barovia is probably the least interesting part of the grey mists.
2. Dms are driven to host plots there because /all/ players hang out in the starting area of Barovia. As a new player, I have found myself absolutely starved for roleplay if I am not in a faction, do not have ooc friends to hang out with, or leave Barovia.
3. I feel other parts of the server need some love.
4. The reason the 'horror' aspect of the game is being complained about is because you do not feel afraid when you have higher levels hanging around to protect you. I found the server to be just fine and still scary with higher levels.
5. The garda are not scary when they are all low level characters. I have seen two level 20s completely gank an entire hoard of 20 npc guards spawned by a dm plus 2 pc garda who were mid range level. Somehow, I don't feel like that would be something to happen just blatantly in the outskirts for this setting.
Barovia has become an rp hub BECAUSE of all the dm supported factions and all the dm plots that encircle the city. If you want to change that, then either give player made factions support (like player controlled guild halls, storage etc etc) - which is healthy for any server- or move those plots to other parts of the server. Or- make more supported factions in other parts of the server.
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I am very much against separating the characters on the server based on level. The more the characters mingle, the better for all.
That's entirely subjective. I'd say the presence of higher level characters in the outskirts has ruined the immersive feel of gothic horror because I know I am eternally safe under their vigil.
Sure its subjective. But I have seen both ways and I truly believe that one is noticeably better for the stories it generates. I get that the presence of level 20s in the outskirts would be disruptive, I really do. Where I would assign cause and effect there is not the presence of said characters but instead the lack of wisdom on the part of the players behind the screen to not know when to find a reason to not involve their character in anything but an auxiliary role of morale or advisory type role. Essentially, as a higher level player among more lower level characters you need to be cognizant of what goods your character can bring to the experiences of others and which ways your presence can be a detriment and emphasize the good aspects while minimizing the bad aspects. High level pcs can be a real asset to the feel of the server, just as in the classic heroes journey tale there is always a "mentor" person in the tale. In ways both mechanical and OOC experience and knowledge of the setting and the server, high level pcs and the players behind them can empower others to more involvement in the server as a whole, but perhaps equally and even more so, the mentoring can breathe new life into a character and take them in unforeseen directions.
Even if it causes DMs, MPCs and AMPCs to move their hunting grounds away from the city its still better that most player-characters will at some point cross paths with most other player-characters. Ever since the roleplay xp system was implemented, the server feels very fractured. There are generations of characters now that I have never crossed paths with, I am sure that is true of others as well. Prior to this system you were able to enjoy much of the servers plots and stories through a voyeuristic way because you would know someone who knew someone who was involved. Now, its a barrier to the cast of characters being linked to such a degree. You have to put in much more effort and receive not as much links to others. Such links to each other just do not flow the same way when you create essentially two casts of characters. The one cast needs much (employment, faction membership or just a sense of belonging, gold to earn, a sense of direction, or simply just allies, and links to the lore of the server's past lore and happenings) and the other is surrounded by characters that have either long ago found the role they enjoy or their place and they have no new generation of characters to interact with which for reason both IC and OOC can lead to a sense of a stale cast to interact with and a sense of stagnation. By definition a character of 12+ is mostly shaped in outlook and role than a new one, so the dynamics of such a cast are much less chaotic and nuanced. New characters are the lifeblood of the server's dynamics, its always a new generation to try to influence the story of for good or ill and this is why DMs and Players alike enjoy interacting with them so much.
The same complaints about the outskirts occurred in 2007, I know and remember it well. It did not stop much of the memorable plots from occurring. So if we are still fighting this battle even with the rp xp system then perhaps its time to accept it as chaotic mingling place that serves its primary purpose of intermingling and think of ways to emphasize the server dynamics as the primary criteria for our thought-processes on making changes. Player to player interaction represents the vast majority of why all of us play here after all.
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Another idea: These spawns could drop crafting components, eliminating another reason high levels return to Western Barovia.
I like this idea a lot.
In my opinion, much of the server was designed to cater toward a player peak of around 13-14. In the last 2 years or so, there has been a noticeable increase in higher level players. It's simply a product of an aging community, and I don't know that there's any substantial fix to it. Unless we want to address radical changes that will undoubtedly upset some of these players, I think we should just change the way we approach horror.
It's not a viable solution to separate players from other players. Even if they destroy a mechanical fear, asking a higher level player to avoid interaction or purposefully handicap themselves ends up subjecting that player to numerous OOC loops. Like, now they have to justify not swinging their sword as hard as they could when their friend is in imminent danger, or they have to somehow find fun in isolation (Which is exactly the opposite of what this game is intended to do. It's a social interaction game, end stop).
My best suggestion would be to concede the outskirts. Just because that's where the people are, doesn't mean that's where we need to throw the most horror. Create plots that draw interested people away. Tailor these plots so that they begin by being naturally uninteresting to higher level PC's. For instance, maybe some low level characters grinding in the Skeleton Tower find some sort of clue that urges them to explore another hideaway, and there they find some Big Bad, or some damsel in distress, etc etc.
Playing adjacently to a hub has its own hurdles. Some players will lose interest, or activity, or stories will progress far slower. But at least you have the ability to craft a story that doesn't end with you getting horrendously ganked mid-conversation in the outskirts. It just takes more patience, more set up, more legwork.
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And my other opinion is that anyone who's made it to level 17+ deserves their own personal nemesis. They've played a character for literally ages. They've played for so long that the only way they would ever willingly closure their characters is to have an ending that respects the amount of time they've put into developing the character (It becomes a catch 22 of potential stagnancy). It's a tall order, to be honest. But I would highly suggest that high level players and DM's be receptive to personalizing story conclusions. And hell, it might make it so that higher level players are less willing to get involved in more trouble because they're already being pursued by some vindictive plotline, and they're already looking over their shoulder.
It could end up being a nice thing too, for players who reach that point. They would get the promise of a more personalized plot that would try to encompass their story, and give them a meaningful climax to their character arc. There's just no reason, imo, that a character should remain level 20 for a year or more. The DM's and the Player himself should expect that there should be a climatic end, and the DM's should be willing and able to help meaningfully deliver that. Hell, you could even have an OOC sit down with a high level player and a DM to talk about the character's story, driving motivations, and get an idea for what might make for a compelling climax.
And if that became a norm, too, you might even see less players rush into peak levels. They might take their time Rping and exploring their stories in the upper mid levels. Food for thought!
Yeah, I'm in agreement with basically all of these points to be fair. One of the main reasons I enjoy the NCE's is because I see what the server could be in the most optimal of circumstances- everyone is around the same level, DMs are super active, and even players run unique antagonist groups because they won't immediately be stomped out.
PERSONALLY, and I'm fully aware this will never happen- I'd like to see a cap around level 15, although I do like having the level 20, years of progression character's around in some regard, so maybe an application process to progress futher. The game is just a lot different past level 15. Some of these suggestions would likely see a boom in player activity, and I feel this one potentially could. Obviously it may upset some, but it's on the staff if they want to try and change things up or keep them going the way they have. I've found most my joy in the NCE's. They provide a nice balanced environment for antagonists of all forms to create engaging RP, and when players are doing things themselves, a great weight is lifted off of the DM team's shoulders. They can't be active 24/7, no one can, but at the moment I think there needs to be some real change because there are very few player antagonists around, and the ones that are tend to be borderline antagonist. The main reason I suggested removing the XP cap up until level 10-12 is for that reason. If you could get to 12 within 2 week's time, I GUARANTEE we would see antagonism by players, no matter how basic, like bandits on the road.
The nemesis idea is great, and I agree, DMS should be try and be a bit more receptive to those level 20ish players pushing plot lines, and work with them to make something they like. I considered putting it in my post, but by the time you're reaching level 20, I whole-hardheartedly believe you should be considering closure within the next year. Level 20 in this setting, and with how long it takes, is VERY strong, and you're just a powerhouse. It's why I don't ever level past 10ish.
The idea of moving horror away from Vallaki is a good idea as well. If I ever think of a potential concept that may draw a few players toward it, I wouldn't mind trying to RP in the wilderness, AWAY from the outskirts. Using carpentry to build makeshift defenses when the night comes. Opens plenty of opportunity for a bored DM or AMPC to interact, even antagonistic PCs. Obviously, there's a lot of danger with being the only one logged in, so I imagine that would be taken into consideration when if that lone player is being messed with.
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I personally find it difficult to keep the fearful atmosphere of the western outskirts alive, especially at night, when there are higher levels present to easily defeat any challenges I throw towards the newer, lower level players. Likewise, if I brought in challenges to defeat the high levels, they would unfairly demolish the lower levels in the crossfire.
^ This. Completely understandable. Creative solutions are required.
*Mist away composite groups of high levels to a challenge more acceptable, dungeons run on auto so the DM can focus on their lower level event. Check up every now and then, offer a better reward if they finish clearing the dungeon.
*Create an adversary & situation
that will only fight that high level PC, with lower levels as onlookers, perhaps through Hold Person magicks if required.
*Give any higher level PCs in the area a task of import relevant to the PC, but elsewhere, prior to the event starting. They're a high level so the DMs should generally know about the PC by now.
*Keep high level plots away from low level areas. Giant bats and AMPCs are fine if they lair close to the Outskirts. Actually entering the outskirts is just asking for players to realise 'We can't beat this, let's stay IC and recruit people that can.' You end up with high levels being drawn to the high level challenge. Don't light the lantern if you don't want the moths.
*Towns or small settlements that 'require' defending each night with a higher RP cap, so that higher levels with morals will stay away from the Outskirts and defend the village when they're able. I believe Kyros is currently doing this, killing the werewolves around the villages to the west of Vallaki. It's a great idea in my opinion if it could be expanded on.
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On the other hand, responsibility for keeping high levels away from Vallaki cannot and should not be placed on the DM Team, except to say that they should run events in other parts of the server, which they do. Requiring DMs to police and reward high-levels present in the Outskirts is a symptom, not a solution.
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All the incentive's placed at high-level play. You get the best crafted and enchanted gear, all the lingering crafting exp you put in that never goes away, all the gear - grandfathered or otherwise, you're also able to stand up to most players unless they've also invested considerable time. But again, if they've done that as well they're also prone to not wanting to mess with equally powerful characters.
You close your character and you lose everything you've ever worked towards to. Very rarely you see the impact your character had beyond the references between characters that you have to all over again pretend you don't know and to make it worse, the leveling's slow, everything kicks you in the groin, and you're doing the level 2- 3 grind as a UPS deliveryman.
You won't see level 20s leave the Outskirts anytime soon because rolling your character is an incredibly brave thing to do the longer you go on. Extra kudos if they've managed to go on after rolling their 20. It doesn't have to be like that but I don't see anything changing that'd help incentive this process that's fitting for this particular server's culture.
People are prone to keep their characters, both hubs aren't always booming, so naturally you typically go where the RP is. Now also bear in mind Port-a-Lucine's atmosphere isn't for everyone's character or indeed, for the person in front of the computer. Barovia and Dementlieu are vastly different places but one's the low level hub and the other is the high level hub.
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Welp, I disagree that all the incentive is at high level. So much of what passes for wisdom in these debates is from an "afar" perspective. We think we know what it's like to be that other player/PC.
To me, at lower levels the leveling itself is a pretty big incentive. It's much more incremental and achievable quickly. Every piece of gear except her enchanted boots that Iridni has and uses with regularity she had by the time she was around 10th. So for the last year, her equipment has been almost entirely static.
I had loads of fun with her in the old days. You say high levels "are also prone to not wanting to mess with equally powerful characters" and imply we're fearful of losing our PCs. Is that fun? Going around not being able to level very much and so invested in a character we've spent years on that we're terrified of closure? Doesn't much sound like fun or an incentive to be high level to me.
Going to the Outskirts where we're where told time and again this is an inappropriate place for us to be but we can't find other opportunities or challenges commensurate with our powers?
Iridni isn't 20th and may never reach it. But I absolutely believe that when she is I will want to shelve her soon after and would love to have the opportunity to send her out on a memorable note such as TGH described. (Because I am rather fond of her, I'd like for it to not be too awfully--or at least unavoidably--terrible either, regardless of the setting, but leaving that aside....)
A few weeks' ago Iridni ran into an AMPC in the mountains near Krofburg because I had an IC reason to go there. This was an AMPC who was just starting to develop her story, and I had no idea how powerful she might be, but she was of a kind Iridni is built to handle, and I happened to be fully buffed. In any event, we RP'd a scene that started some things moving and we never hostiled one another. It wasn't anything big, but not resorting to the Red is Dead mentality (because I knew I was op'd for the area) let that story develop and enrich the server.
With great power comes great responsibility. Presumably high levels *know* a thing or two about the server, and their quality as players should reflect the quality of their PC's achievements. Being as proud of your accomplishments in furthering story as you are in racking up XP and gear is a cultural change we can all strive for without the Devs doing a thing.
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I don't fully agree that all the incentive is at high level. I've never had a level 20, enchanted gear, and I can almost guarantee I never will. In the time it takes for me to get to level 12, my character's concepts have usually changed for better or worse. Months of playing them usually wears done on me, considering most of the time I'm not fortunate enough to get into plot lines. I was fortunate on my paladin, who's level 10, to be targeted by an AMPC and got extensive RP with them, and it's something I looked forward to everytime I got on. In fact, I used to stay outside against my better judgement for the sole purpose of encountering them. That's only happened on one PC though, and thus I get bored and shelf them. Would just prefer to instead have a usable build within a week's time, and run the concept I had planned and see where it goes, knowing that I won't be completely useless in encountering an AMPC, but I won't be extremely strong either. Maybe I could hold my own against a character in the 12-15 range, if I had played my cards right and had some items. I'll always be an advocate for quicker leveling because it promotes less attachment. Less attachment, in most cases, is good.
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The downside of less attachment is the NCE mentality. In this instance, characters act less and less realistically and as actual people because consequences lose relevancy. NCE people do frankly insane stuff because they know it doesnt matter and they are just playing a video game. Sure, more stuff happens, but the ridiculous mayhem of NCE doesnt support the long term. Not just that, but NCE requires more DM intervention and oversight and management more than any other time. Inviting this to be *all the time* is just an unreasonable expectation of DM time. NCE's are infrequent for this very reason, amongst others.
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Debatable, seeing as plenty of NWN servers in the past have done no leveling systems and been fine; haven't experienced them myself, but I've been told by some older members of POTM's community they played them, and actually preferred them. Things went fine on the WoW RP servers I've played on as well, but I imagine that's not fully comparable due to a different community.
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Debatable, seeing as plenty of NWN servers in the past have done no leveling systems and been fine; haven't experienced them myself, but I've been told by some older members of POTM's community they played them, and actually preferred them.
I think that there is something very important to keep in mind when thinking in this way. Just because it worked someplace else it would fit here. This place is alive and thriving, and the philosophy and direction provided by the admin team is working. It is supporting a vision that they have for a server that is 10+ years in the making. When we talk about big sweeping changes we often don't understand, can't understand, how those effects ripple especially like changes that would be effective at drawing high level chars from low level RP zones. Looking at big systems, which is what this community is, picking and poking slowly to make things better is really important. The success of this server is due to the philosophies in running this place. Foremost of which is their commitment to good change, but also being the final judge of what good is. At this point we have to trust them that they have the holistic view well in hand as they make decisions.
That's not to say that I agree with every bit, but overall I like this place and they are responsible for that. I keep that in mind. And, it's also not to say that you shouldn't voice concerns, they have made a open communication easy and are quite active in responding. Looking back at forums and additions and change logs you can see they have a long history of making incremental changes that are in line with their vision.
I guess my main frustration reading through all of these is that the admin opinion is clear, they do have the final say, and we aught to trust them. They've done a pretty good job of it so far.
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There aren't perfect solutions, just decisions with pros and cons here, but I will share my own personal choices with my higher level outcasts characters as it pertains to the Low-Mid level Hub. The mist-camp hub just isn't that interesting to me. It functions excellently for its obvious purpose of travelling or potentially meeting others to adventure out, but the lower-mid level hub of Vallaki has so much more to offer in terms of role play and setting potential. I also don't notice much dm interests in using the Mist Camp setting, and so the area pretty much feels reduced to its very practical purposes of being a staging area for high level adventures.
My tanarukk, despite receiving no rp xp, has spent the last month in the Drain. For outcast types, the Drain might be the more appropriate setting for characters, regardless of their level, with the outskirts being just a few short transitions away. I've had fun, here and there, having Swertha at the Mist Camp, but when you compare a setting like the Mist Camp to the Drain, they don't compare. Swertha has never found an adventuring party from the Drain, but the role play that happens in the Drain makes for such better story development.
When I place a greater value on character/role play/story development over xp-gain, that leads me to place Swertha in the Drain, while the script is designed to offer no xp incentive at all due to her level, which is ironic, as clearly, my only purpose with having Swertha in the Drain is for role playing, which traditionally, as been a core value of Potm's.
Dungeoning is a fun part of the game, though, and so I will continue to use the mist-camp, but as I've said, it just isn't the most exciting atmosphere, when compared to such places as the Drain.
I have been impressed lately by what the Port's Black Market Underworld has to offer for high level outcasts types, and it's the first time that I've noticed enough traffic there to make it possible to use the area as a hub for outcasts, so my high level caliban is now planted there, and it is just a few short transitions away from the Mist Camp, for adventure opportunities, and so that is a nice setup with potential.
But for a boisterous, in your face tanarukk like Swertha, I suspect the Drain will always be the closest thing to a 'home' that a miscreant like her will ever know in the Demiplane, regardless of the fact that only low to mid level characters are offered role playing xp/incentives for being there.
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There aren't perfect solutions, just decisions with pros and cons here, but I will share my own personal choices with my higher level outcasts characters as it pertains to the Low-Mid level Hub. The mist-camp hub just isn't that interesting to me. It functions excellently for its obvious purpose of travelling or potentially meeting others to adventure out, but the lower-mid level hub of Vallaki has so much more to offer in terms of role play and setting potential. I also don't notice much dm interests in using the Mist Camp setting, and so the area pretty much feels reduced to its very practical purposes of being a staging area for high level adventures.
My tanarukk, despite receiving no rp xp, has spent the last month in the Drain. For outcast types, the Drain might be the more appropriate setting for characters, regardless of their level, with the outskirts being just a few short transitions away. I've had fun, here and there, having Swertha at the Mist Camp, but when you compare a setting like the Mist Camp to the Drain, they don't compare. Swertha has never found an adventuring party from the Drain, but the role play that happens in the Drain makes for such better story development.
When I place a greater value on character/role play/story development over xp-gain, that leads me to place Swertha in the Drain, while the script is designed to offer no xp incentive at all due to her level, which is ironic, as clearly, my only purpose with having Swertha in the Drain is for role playing, which traditionally, as been a core value of Potm's.
Dungeoning is a fun part of the game, though, and so I will continue to use the mist-camp, but as I've said, it just isn't the most exciting atmosphere, when compared to such places as the Drain.
I have been impressed lately by what the Port's Black Market Underworld has to offer for high level outcasts types, and it's the first time that I've noticed enough traffic there to make it possible to use the area as a hub for outcasts, so my high level caliban is now planted there, and it is just a few short transitions away from the Mist Camp, for adventure opportunities, and so that is a nice setup with potential.
But for a boisterous, in your face tanarukk like Swertha, I suspect the Drain will always be the closest thing to a 'home' that a miscreant like her will ever know in the Demiplane, regardless of the fact that only low to mid level characters are offered role playing xp/incentives for being there.
This is exactly what I mean by the Admins need to decide what message they are sending to players, are we a PVE server first, or a RP server first? If we are a PVE server, then yes, returning to hack and slash ideals is great, return monster XP and lets just get down to killing for XP, if were are RP server first, please stop slitting the throats of higher level players for being in areas RPing. This is a delicate balance I agree, but the priority must be set one way or another, at this point, the server sounds more PVE then RP, but the ideal says RP over PVE, so which is it?
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I am new here but wanted to offer my two cents based on other servers I have played on.
First, let me be clear that I think POTM is an awesome server and I am really enjoying my time here.
Second, a lot of the other servers I played on took a little bit of a different take than POTM. They typically had one major settlement / area that everyone gathered in and then ventured away from to conduct raids / quests / etc. This was great from a server and RP standpoint in my view. It encouraged characters interacting with a wide range of power levels and factions. It brought the server to life.
Your a brand new character but great at killing low level NPCs? No, your not the best and badass around. Look right over there, see that guy? He can take you down in two swings if he has to. Etc.
Yes it does come with a couple of things to think through carefully. First, as was mentioned it does make one specific area of the server much safer for new characters. This is not always a bad thing, it encourages new players who are trying to figure things out to stick with it. As a DM mentioned, if they are going to run an invasion of that area then the spawns are likely going to be very difficult for the new players (so the higher levels have a challenge). This is not a bad thing either as long as its not all the time, it forces the younger characters to accept they cant always be the hero who dives straight in without serious consequences.
As for the monster PCs. Gear them for the server over all and then trust the player to use them responsible. They have to be approved anyway right? Part of the approval process can be a simple 'do we trust this player to use this character to make things fun as opposed to being a jerk'.
On the plus side, as mentioned above it brings the server to life in regards to power levels and factions. It encourages factions to seek out brand new characters and recruit them then for what they could become. It ensures there is plenty of interactions to help drive plots, both personal / dm / faction.
I am a huge fan of creating central areas that actively encourage all ranges of characters to gather and then interact with each other. Just my two cents.
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I can only echo Iconoclast's sentiments, almost exactly. I tried to express myself in a big picture way but his anecdotal experience is my thoughts exactly.
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We cannot just remove high levels from the outskirts. They be just as much right there as others.
I myself have a 17 rogue that spends time in the outskirts, she is wary of the night since a pack of lycans can easily kill her. She doesn't go out to save people either, best case she goes out to drag a body to the temple.
Even if my tiefling became level 18 he would be there also since he wouldn't lift a finger without being hired and watch people fight, die, or kill werewolves. Bye that is because he is a merc.
That said what we as high level players should try better to do is not step on the toes of low levels. Our characters could be veterans to Barovia and what they've faced might seem to make the night less scary, but then we ruin the fun fir low levels, and though some I'm sure we'll disagree, but us as high levels wouldn't seek the action especially if it involves dm plot, it spoils the mood when a high level lingers around because they're is a threat of a demon (merely using that as a current example.) We're strong, we don't have to prove it, let the low levels figure it out, or let them have the action and you tell them to get you ONLY IF they truely need you and you can determine IC if you would help them.
It's odd that people are often so willing to help people they hardly know so easily
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The conundrum I see is the following:
1) Having high level crafters and the RVT near the new players and low level players in valiki is a good thing.
Problems:
A) Crafting level often(not always) is correlated with character level.
B) This means all high level characters flood in to the outskirts for special events.
Solution: There needs to be a greater crafting and selling presence in the other domains. The port RVT is there but typically if the port RVT is strong, the valiki one is weak, so port RVT just trade in valiki. I would love to see valiki RVT trade in quantity and port RVT trade in quality personally or a new player made faction feel in the gaps here.
2) Most of the really nice factions are based in valiki.
Problems:
A) Having high level characters is the outskirts is horrible for immersion.
B) This leaves very little faction play for higher level characters outside of barovia
Solution: I think like I suggested for the RVT, factions need to scale more. Valiki could serve as a recruitment hub for major factions, while their high level is done elsewhere. For example, I would love to see a larger caliban and ezrite presence in port, but faction motivations largely drag these players to valiki. When I was in the ezrite church everyone 2nd-20th all were in the same church and when we dungeoned, trying to do it all together. This was.... not the best.
In general I see this as a player problem that needs a player solution. I think the dev team made the right call with the xp rp caps. This created some not great consequences, however, I think most of these can be fixed by reconsidering how we structure factions and how we construct RP motivations for certain players to be in certain areas.
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The conundrum I see is the following:
1) Having high level crafters and the RVT near the new players and low level players in valiki is a good thing.
Problems:
A) Crafting level often(not always) is correlated with character level.
B) This means all high level characters flood in to the outskirts for special events.
I am perhaps an isolated example but my current main is under tenth level and has a herbalism score of rank 29, plus a not insignificant amount from his stats. I frequently tote out seemingly high power potions for folks to buy in the Outskirts by design; I've found I have a much quicker turnover in the Mist Camp and people could probably also pay more than I currently ask for my wares but I choose to sell in Vallaki so as to offer lower levels the chance to get these potions.
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I don’t quite agree with the idea of separating the server because of a difference in level.
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Is there any particular reason /why/ Vallaki is the starting area? Besides of course that Barovia in the books is like the "beginning" and tabled for levels 1-10? If not, I don't see a problem with randomly dropping players in different area's, as long as they're able to get a different intro, and also making all of these area's accessible to both high and low levels.
Keep the XP system in place where you get less xp for higher levels hanging around. This is that stops them from just carrying lower leveled PC's everywhere, unless it's for raw information, which is okay.
When delivering a threat, figure out how exactly you want to deliver it. Vampires can be as strong as PC's, there are Vampires, or rather wonders, just as strong as any other PC in the game, this can be a "Crippling Horror". Say a red mist or whatever saunters through and destroys anything it touches. It's also unkillable, this checks even High Levels. If you're focusing on delivering something to low levels, just follow them around for a while and give them a plot to tangle with. Don't make it so that they think it'll be hard or impossible to do.
Make them THINK it will be easy, then flip them on their head when they least expect it, in a place far from high levels, and make it a challenging experience without killing them. If a high level interfere's, just ramp it up on the high-level, and depending on how they're interfering, perhaps just outright kill them.
There are so many plots that even the playing field, even take simple ones from the first Ravenloft books. You can't kill Strahd without that magical sword right? Well you could just make that idea extreme, what's stopping you from running an adventure that makes it so that a certain scroll has to be acquired to make a vampire or Witch vulnerable?(mages) Or a certain sword? (fighters) or a certain holy symbol? (clerics) or a certain pair of keys?(Thieves) You can make everyone feel special and important, and this is something /EVERYONE/ can particpate in, regardless of level, because even your level 20 Cleric of Torm can't take on my Level 13 Vampire, because of whatever favor he's gained from the Dark Powers. The answer is one that can be answered by anybody, any group.
In this way, we can intermingle these groups.
I totally agree it's not the DM's "responsibility" to remedy these problems, and the fix for making people feel like they're not always protected is one that requires a DM present in the first place. However the situation that exists is usually presented by a DM anyways. I see people complaining about how DM's can't scare the players because high levels are always around. Well, the DM's already causing that problem in the first place, so they also have the ability to fix it.
As far as wandering at night, the developers have done an astonishing job of making Werewolves fast, deadly, and smart. I think this combination usually leaves low levels feeling pretty scared, even if they're traveling with a couple level 12's or whatever at night. Furthermore, a single swipe from some creatures is enough to bring down level 5's and such, depending on the creature, so they still have fear components.
In short, I don't see why we have to separate level 20's from level 2's.
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Is there any particular reason /why/ Vallaki is the starting area? Besides of course that Barovia in the books is like the "beginning" and tabled for levels 1-10? If not, I don't see a problem with randomly dropping players in different area's, as long as they're able to get a different intro, and also making all of these area's accessible to both high and low levels.
Keep the XP system in place where you get less xp for higher levels hanging around. This is that stops them from just carrying lower leveled PC's everywhere, unless it's for raw information, which is okay.
When delivering a threat, figure out how exactly you want to deliver it. Vampires can be as strong as PC's, there are Vampires, or rather wonders, just as strong as any other PC in the game, this can be a "Crippling Horror". Say a red mist or whatever saunters through and destroys anything it touches. It's also unkillable, this checks even High Levels. If you're focusing on delivering something to low levels, just follow them around for a while and give them a plot to tangle with. Don't make it so that they think it'll be hard or impossible to do.
Make them THINK it will be easy, then flip them on their head when they least expect it, in a place far from high levels, and make it a challenging experience without killing them. If a high level interfere's, just ramp it up on the high-level, and depending on how they're interfering, perhaps just outright kill them.
There are so many plots that even the playing field, even take simple ones from the first Ravenloft books. You can't kill Strahd without that magical sword right? Well you could just make that idea extreme, what's stopping you from running an adventure that makes it so that a certain scroll has to be acquired to make a vampire or Witch vulnerable?(mages) Or a certain sword? (fighters) or a certain holy symbol? (clerics) or a certain pair of keys?(Thieves) You can make everyone feel special and important, and this is something /EVERYONE/ can particpate in, regardless of level, because even your level 20 Cleric of Torm can't take on my Level 13 Vampire, because of whatever favor he's gained from the Dark Powers. The answer is one that can be answered by anybody, any group.
In this way, we can intermingle these groups.
I totally agree it's not the DM's "responsibility" to remedy these problems, and the fix for making people feel like they're not always protected is one that requires a DM present in the first place. However the situation that exists is usually presented by a DM anyways. I see people complaining about how DM's can't scare the players because high levels are always around. Well, the DM's already causing that problem in the first place, so they also have the ability to fix it.
As far as wandering at night, the developers have done an astonishing job of making Werewolves fast, deadly, and smart. I think this combination usually leaves low levels feeling pretty scared, even if they're traveling with a couple level 12's or whatever at night. Furthermore, a single swipe from some creatures is enough to bring down level 5's and such, depending on the creature, so they still have fear components.
In short, I don't see why we have to separate level 20's from level 2's.
I like these suggestions- mini plots that last a day, if that. Get this scroll & it will let you kill this. It gives players and DM's interactions, which is how it should be in D&D, and makes the world feel alive. Big fan of the "red mists" as well. If there's an abundance of players outside, of varying level, and a DM decides to mess with them, just spawn a red mist or something down the road, and do a DM shout about how red mists are coming toward the outskirts, birds seen flying in drop dead. That should be plenty enough to send people running inside, in legit fear that they could just get killed with no check.
I don't particularly have an issue with level high leveled or level 20 characters. Zachary Dalensbane was a level 20 paladin, and he was played pretty tastefully. I never saw him in the outskirts at night, and really that's the only time a level 20 could potentially be an issue in that area. You could have a level 20 fully focused in the Vallaki/Barovia region and it wouldn't bother me, assuming you didn't purposely sit around and potentially kill the atmosphere.
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I saw that one person stated that high levels in the outskirts ruin immersion.
Without venturing somewhere with someone, or seeing them take on a mighty beast, how do you know their level? Even then, IC you wouldn't know a 'level'. You'd just know that person is a veteran in their craft. Your IC knowledge should not involve another PC's character sheet.
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Keep the XP system in place where you get less xp for higher levels hanging around. This is that stops them from just carrying lower leveled PC's everywhere, unless it's for raw information, which is okay.
Just to make sure you understand how things now work: lower levels get less XP when monsters are killed near high levels. The RP system works differently, and it is the high levels who suffer.
Used to, the average level in an area was calculated, and high levels received less RP XP if the average was too low. The Devs kept insisting this was working as it intended, to rebut the substantial majority of players who, when given a chance, expressed they wanted it removed.
Despite saying it was working as they intended and their data showed that, the Devs responded by no longer tying it to average character level but to geographical area. So who you are RPing with no longer affects the XP earned.
I'm not going to repeat all my arguments about why this was a dreadful change--probably the worst change I've seen implemented here--but I do have a new one: this change makes it harder to draw crowds for strictly RP events that are unlikely to involve any Challenge Rating at all.
If an event like the Cornell lectures is held in an "RP rich" zone, then low levels have difficulty attending. They must travel through dangerous areas and away from their natural base. Afterward, they have to return.
If such an event is held in an "RP poor" zone, then the high levels have less incentive to attend it, and if they do, they're going against the segregation being OOCly enforced upon us.
Trying to revitalize, for example, the Broken Bell is going to be hard if high levels (who tend to be the most dedicated players on the server and the kind who would devote consistent time to something like rehearsing and performing) know they won't get any XP for their devotion to the project.
Meistersinger was three hours of high-quality RP that any high levels in attendance had to do purely out of altruistic dedication.
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Actually, I think you may be on to something there!
Make it so that RP XP scales down when high levels are present just like it does when a level 20 shows up in the ML Crypts. Then maybe high level players would be shamed away for jumping scenes involving lower level PCs :lol: If there's one thing I've learned in my years on PotM, it's that people don't tolerate you jacking their XP. Let a level 20 try to outskirts sit after that change, they'd be swarmed by a mob of lvl 1-10 PC so fast, it'd look like The Walking Dead.
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Actually, I think you may be on to something there!
Make it so that RP XP scales down when high levels are present just like it does when a level 20 shows up in the ML Crypts. Then maybe high level players would be shamed away for jumping scenes involving lower level PCs :lol: If there's one thing I've learned in my years on PotM, it's that people don't tolerate you jacking their XP. Let a level 20 try to outskirts sit after that change, they'd be swarmed by a mob of lvl 1-10 PC so fast, it'd look like The Walking Dead.
Please remember that as someone who sits on the CC (and is standing for re-election) you ought to set an example for the rest of us of how to be excellent to others, including making positive, responsive, productive comments.
As LivingWasteland mentioned, RP really isn't about level. If someone is playing a scene and another PC "jumps it," the level isn't relevant. Either the new PC contributes and makes the scene better or detracts from it. Relative level has nothing to do with it.
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Actually, I think you may be on to something there!
Make it so that RP XP scales down when high levels are present just like it does when a level 20 shows up in the ML Crypts. Then maybe high level players would be shamed away for jumping scenes involving lower level PCs :lol: If there's one thing I've learned in my years on PotM, it's that people don't tolerate you jacking their XP. Let a level 20 try to outskirts sit after that change, they'd be swarmed by a mob of lvl 1-10 PC so fast, it'd look like The Walking Dead.
Please remember that as someone who sits on the CC (and is standing for re-election) you ought to set an example for the rest of us of how to be excellent to others, including making positive, responsive, productive comments.
As someone standing for election on the CC, I absolutely agree that Legion should be setting an example.
So let me be the first to follow it and echo his commitment to segregating high and low levels by hamfisted mechanical penalties.
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That was a serious post :(
Please stop trying to bully me just because you don't agree with what I'm saying, that's not how you should treat your fellow players Iridni Ren.
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I'm surprised that this thread hasn't been locked yet for its negative connotation in the title regarding immigrants.
People will do what they like, and being social creatures, will most of the time seek out others.
Seeing how Vallaki is the starting area, you're guaranteed to find people there. So either you give an incentive for everyone to move away,
leaving new players and low levels to their own devices and perhaps very frustrated. The alternative would be to change the starting area,
which is too much trouble for a quality of life change that will only affect people who either come or don't come because of their dislike of the place.
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Iridni, I think this was uneccessarily disrespectful and should have been sent via PM.
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As I said, and needs to be remembered, especially by older players like Indri, everyone has the right to an opinion, you don't have to like that players opinion, but they have a right to it weather or not you like it, I personally hate the level cap on higher levels receiving RP XP because it punishes you for RPing not for hunting low level mobs. I also agree the title could use a change given its actual meaning IRL and the pain it has actually caused people in the last few years, though I don't agree a lock is necessary. @Legion, I understand your post, but I don't agree that any mechanic that OOCly shames a player to force them to leave an area is appropriate, this is a Social Server, not a stand alone and sadly I have played in other areas, I can sit alone in the mists for hours without seeing other players, or other areas like it, yet go to ML temple in the Outskirts for thirty seconds and I have about seven or eight people I can RP with. Given those odds, I would likely hang around the outskirts more. Punishing players for being social, sends the message that PVE is better then RP. Its a horrible message to send to a Social Server.
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Actually, I think you may be on to something there!
Make it so that RP XP scales down when high levels are present just like it does when a level 20 shows up in the ML Crypts. Then maybe high level players would be shamed away for jumping scenes involving lower level PCs :lol: If there's one thing I've learned in my years on PotM, it's that people don't tolerate you jacking their XP. Let a level 20 try to outskirts sit after that change, they'd be swarmed by a mob of lvl 1-10 PC so fast, it'd look like The Walking Dead.
Please remember that as someone who sits on the CC (and is standing for re-election) you ought to set an example for the rest of us of how to be excellent to others, including making positive, responsive, productive comments.
As LivingWasteland mentioned, RP really isn't about level. If someone is playing a scene and another PC "jumps it," the level isn't relevant. Either the new PC contributes and makes the scene better or detracts from it. Relative level has nothing to do with it.
Being excellent to others also covers not making the same arguments (especially in a condescending, aggressive, and nonproductive manner) over and over again. You've been warned about this before; please pay more attention to your own tone before policing that of others.
Indeed, the tone in this thread is, in general, not good, and a serious part of the problem is that no new proposals (except "undo the change") are being offered. Unless someone has something constructive to put forward, I'm going to close it.
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This thread to level 20's:
(http://i.imgur.com/lgLNE3y.gif)
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And we're done.