Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Iridni Ren on October 07, 2018, 11:18:40 PM
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Although in general I consider crafting a horrible grind, herbalism has long been the craft that was easiest to do and with the quickest, most lucrative payout. The changes have made it even easier.
1. A lot of the DCs are 22. I'm pretty sure invisibility is lower on the new recipe than the old, even though the old required two herbs and this only one. The 22 makes mastering the craft pretty easy and quick, especially given mass brewing, as it softens the jump from 20 to 25.
2. Many, many more recipes are available, which makes the craft much more powerful.
Aside from game balance, I don't like the changes (personally) because of having so many more herbs and potions to keep up with. I especially don't understand why some of the new herbs duplicate already existing recipes. Unless I'm mistaken there are two new ways of making Eagle's Splendor, when there were already two ways of doing this. Four recipes that do the same thing?
Finally, the potion bottles have become even harder to distinguish, partly from sheer quantity. But also it seems as though assumptions like "green = heal/curative" have been violated.
Some suggestions just so this isn't entirely critical:
1. Eliminate duplicate recipes and any new herbs that do nothing but duplicate others.
2. Give all herbs unique appearances. If that's not feasible, then I submit there are too many herbs.
3. Same for potion bottles. Use colors to give basic idea of potion and make them consistent. For example, each schoolf of magic have its own color.
4. DCs should reflect spell level. Perhaps (level +2) * 5.
5. Spells 4th level and above should require a minimum of 2 herbs.
Some of the new herbs may have to be used in combination with others. If so I haven't discovered that, but again this points out a problem with having so many. Players are going to learn these recipes either IC (through trial and error or talking to other PCs), or OOC.
Having so many combinations really does encourage OOC chatter because of the difficulty of learning through trial and error. The number of combinations that must be tried gets huge when you have so many herbs.
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Only commenting because I have an invested interest in some herbs, so I've taken the bait well.
New herbs. New combinations...
The best things to have come from the new herb range are the healing potions I've found. They're very cost efficient due to the nature of the spell they use to their effect.
None of the new potions are better than what was existing, they have utility but considering three of the existing potions and lining them up with the best of the new ones, there's no power boost, just more variety of what you can do and how to do it.
More XP efficient herbs are located outside of the starting area, so risk vs reward is appropriate there.
As for too many herbs, well, it's the same amount of herb spawn points, it's more variety than more herbs.
If you don't want to pick something up, don't. If anything because of this, it has diluted existing herbs so it's actually lowering how many potent potions you could make out of herbs gathered from any one place.
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The new herbs are definitely a change.
Now we have potions of spell resistance, Tenser's and other things we did not previously.
I think these affect mostly usefulness of cross classing (Oh why did I take so and so many caster levels when I can now do that with potions, is someone probably thinking) and PvP fights.
I can't say if this change is good or bad but it's there.
I'm too lazy to do any herbalism but I have seen a lot more potions of Heal lately.
At some point several people will probably carry 99 Heal potions and that is something to take in consideration when it comes to player versus player fights, if we don't want to turn them in to drinking contests.
We have had balance issues before with Time Stop and Greater Sanctuary and this could be the next thing.
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There are spells and feats that disable the use of items when used on a hostile player in PvP.
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I wouldn't be surprised if everyone's doing herbalism to some extent, especially with how expensive scrolls are now.
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I love the new herb combinations and potions, but some of them are too easy. Out of the new herbs I've tried the highest DC was 32. And that was for a damn powerful potion. I think some of the new ones need a higher DC. Like to me the misty willow herb is WAY too easy to brew. I think, for what it can make, it should be closer to that of a Heal potion. As for the duplicate herbs, those are neat, but they sort of make the honey lily and lesser ones useless since they seem to grow not far from the low level starting point.
I've not found out ALL the recipes yet (if we -can- do tensers that should be like dc 45+), but it does seem like some of them could use a re-evaluation of their DC.
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Some of the new tonics are a joke towards an sort of balance.
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As the point has been raised, I believe that the role of herbalism in this server needs to be reassessed and reevaluated, especially so at this juncture at which it has become exceptionally more powerful.
Herbalism has long, and rightly, been considered as the 'superior' craft amongst the crafting systems.
It is by a wide margin the most accessible craft, owing to:
The small inventory size and weight of herbs.
Herbs are small, light, and can be even smaller and lighter by putting them into herbalism pouches before putting them in 60% magic bags.
This must be considered in comparison to weighty ores and ingots,(http://) bulky wood, weighty and bulky alchemical ingredients.
It is very easy to store vast numbers of herbs. It is not easy to store vast repositories of other crafting resources. I'll come back to this.
The low time investment needed to acquire herbs.
It is not necessary to invest as much time into Herbalism as it is for the other crafts for similar returns.
Herbs are found everywhere. You can pick them up when you're dungeoning, running deliveries or travelling from A-B. There is no need to sit and watch your PC smash boulders or cut down trees.
The low time investment in processing herbs into potions.
Unlike other crafts, there is just one process at one station to process herbs into potions.
These factors combine to create a funnel effect. PotM has always had power crafters - players who want to devote time to feeding the player economy, and that's fine. But power herbalists have a disproportionately huge pool of resources to draw from, because they are ubiquitous. Even considering the balancing factor that some herbs are hard to get, when you consider it in aggregate - dozens of players funneling into a limited number of power herbalists - it's still easy street.
What does this mean? It means that as it stands, with a small amount of determination, any mid-level PC could have immediate unrestricted access to:
Stoneskin, Spell Resistance, 50% Concealment, Energy Buffer, Haste, True Seeing and a Heal. Among others.
Now, I'd like to draw your attention to this:
* use/day - In most terms of NWN, a day only represents the time between resting, thus items that have uses per day are quickly becoming much more frequently used. Since these items never run dry, we could end up with individuals carrying such items for every needed situation, effectively making them more powerful than a spellcaster and incredibly hard to toy with as a DM.
This quote is from Bluebomber's guidelines for item submissions, specifically why we don't have use/day items. Because PCs stockpiling use/day items makes them effectively able to deal with whatever is thrown at them, counter to the server's horror ethos.
I'm bringing this up because I argue the range of spells available to ANY PC effectively makes them more powerful than a spellcaster.
Anecdotally I was told that the intended purpose of herbalism was to act as a crutch for mundane parties. That without an arcane buffer or cleric healer, a party could still 'fake it' with buffs and heals from potions. Alchemy was added because herbalism couldn't effectively replicate weapon buffs.
Incremental additions to the system has taken it beyond this initial intention, and I believe outside of one of the fundamental design choices of the server.
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Rather than just moan, I'd like to make some specific suggestions that I think would help.
I don't think that tweaking DCs or recipies is the solution.
I also don't want to say 'Remove this or remove that', although I do believe that Stoneskin, Spell Resistance, True Seeing and Energy Buffer have taken us over the brink into the realm of 'able to deal with anything'..
I think a reasonable adjustment would be to put some sort of break on the production of potions.
Lower the spawn rate of herbs by 30% or more, to bring supply more in line with the supply of other crafting ingredients.
This would not penalise players who are engaged in crafting, by forcing more of their time into potion production, but it would slow down the supply.
Thankyou.
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I wholeheartedly agree that the herbalism upgrade is requiring some fine tunings. I'm trying to see myself how a better balance can be reached. It is my own observation too that some herbs spawn maybe a bit too much, others very rarely, and some perhaps not at all. I have yet to see confirmations that "Hanging Vines" or "Fruit of Geb" are spawning for instance.
In general though, I really don't see any significant balance issue with the influx of new potions. High level casters are still supremely above none casters. The new potions help bridge that imbalance between classes only slightly. They make things a bit easier, but I am not observing a significant increase in surviving Sithicus either. The new potions are not breaking the mod.
Which is not to say nothing should be done. On the contrary. It would be helpful if you could list me which herbs you deem spawn too often and which potions are too easy to make. Do explain why you feel so and what you suggest to correct this on a per potion basis.
I'd like also to address some of the comments so far in this thread
[...] A lot of the DCs are 22. I'm pretty sure invisibility is lower on the new recipe than the old, even though the old required two herbs and this only one. The 22 makes mastering the craft pretty easy and quick, especially given mass brewing, as it softens the jump from 20 to 25. [...]
The DCs are always either the same or just slightly above the original potion. This is on purpose for multiple reasons. We want high level characters to stay away from low level Barovia. Having a single herb to make a potion that would otherwise need several herbs is one of the incentive. Having the DC just a bit higher is also an incentive to have herbalists leave Barovia. We are aware these small DC difference may help in progressing in the craft slightly faster, but considering the amount of grinding that is still require for that, this isn't in itself an issue. Modifying the spawning rate of herbs is likely a more logical course of action than worrying about the DC.
[...] I especially don't understand why some of the new herbs duplicate already existing recipes. [...]
This is absolutely on purpose and it wont change. We want high level characters to find their herbs away from Low level Barovia. This therefore requires new means to make the existing potions. Also, they do not "just" duplicate existing potions. Every new herbs that can make an existing potions are also components for all-new potions. You have simply not discovered all possibilities yet.
[...] Finally, the potion bottles have become even harder to distinguish, partly from sheer quantity. But also it seems as though assumptions like "green = heal/curative" have been violated. [...]
Have you been to a grocery store? It's chaos out there! All those products with similar packaging trying to get your attention! :mrgreen: More seriously. As best as I could I used different models for both herbs and potions. I know some still use the same models. But to be frank, in medieval times you'd likely have an even harder time to differentiate everything. It's not done on purpose, but a byproduct of having so many herbs. I'll not adjust that and were not removing herbs. The balance in the amount of herbs spawning is the more pressing issue to attend.
Having so many combinations really does encourage OOC chatter because of the difficulty of learning through trial and error. The number of combinations that must be tried gets huge when you have so many herbs.
Which by the same account might be the very reason some players may think, that on the contrary, this offers even more quality RP time and opportunities. Which is truer, your argument or mine? Truth is neither. Neither are arguments. They are statements not supported or proven by any evidence. I do not control if a player will metagame or not. Nor do I believe that more options inherently leads to more metaging. It's really up to each individual. I therefore chose not to bother with the notion.
[...]As for too many herbs, well, it's the same amount of herb spawn points, it's more variety than more herbs.
If you don't want to pick something up, don't. If anything because of this, it has diluted existing herbs so it's actually lowering how many potent potions you could make out of herbs gathered from any one place.[...]
I wish it was that simple, but not quite. Yes, it is the same amount of resources spawn points, give or take a few more added in some domains. However, each spawn point now have a higher chance of producing something. The previous herbs still spawn as often as before. The module is in effect spawning more herbs than before. Fortunately, this is something we can easily (and probably should) adjust.
[...] Now we have potions of spell resistance, Tenser's [...]
If you find the recipe for the Tenser potion do send it to me please! One might think I'd remember the recipies I put in, but ask DM Raven, I've been so lunatic of late! :P
Rest assured the Tenser potion is a loot item only. We are not adding that one to the craft.
[...]I love the new herb combinations and potions, but some of them are too easy. Out of the new herbs I've tried the highest DC was 32. And that was for a damn powerful potion.[...]
[...]Like to me the misty willow herb is WAY too easy to brew.[...]
[...]but it does seem like some of them could use a re-evaluation of their DC.[...]
The DCs were chosen usually compared to other potions of the same power level. But as I stated above, I feel balancing the amount of herbs that spawn is the more pressing issue.
The funny thing about the misty willow, it is the rarest of herb that can be spawned in the Mists, I think right now its about a 3% chance per spawn point. But you guys travel it so often that by default you gather a lot. Trust that I will find a solution to that one. Hoard those stoneskin brews, soon they will be worth a lot more.
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ooga booga
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I think a reasonable adjustment would be to put some sort of break on the production of potions.
Lower the spawn rate of herbs by 30% or more, to bring supply more in line with the supply of other crafting ingredients.
I largely agree with what you've said, CosmicRay, but I don't think lowering the spawn rate of things like Woundwart or other low level "learner" herbs is good for newbies. By all means let's tweak the supply of the higher level herbs, but let's be discerning. The main issue is at higher levels and with more powerful potions.
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I think a reasonable adjustment would be to put some sort of break on the production of potions.
Lower the spawn rate of herbs by 30% or more, to bring supply more in line with the supply of other crafting ingredients.
I largely agree with what you've said, CosmicRay, but I don't think lowering the spawn rate of things like Woundwart or other low level "learner" herbs is good for newbies. By all means let's tweak the supply of the higher level herbs, but let's be discerning. The main issue is at higher levels and with more powerful potions.
Good point well made.
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I largely agree with what you've said, CosmicRay, but I don't think lowering the spawn rate of things like Woundwart or other low level "learner" herbs is good for newbies. By all means let's tweak the supply of the higher level herbs, but let's be discerning. The main issue is at higher levels and with more powerful potions.
The script allows to do both actually. Drop the general spawning rate of herbs, while boosting the rate of particular herbs. This is likely the best course of action at this time. I simply need your help to identify the problematic herbs.
Misty willows is prime suspect number one, but what else?
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IMO the main offenders are the herbs related to Stoneskin potions and Spell Resistance potions; those are very powerful spells that quite radically alter the buff economy dynamic.
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1. Eliminate duplicate recipes and any new herbs that do nothing but duplicate others.
If anything, the new duplicate recipes and herbs for those aren't common enough yet IMO, as I feel it's still much easier to obtain the herbs for those potions in Vallaki.
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It will be difficult to make them more common though. Having Perfidus, Blaustein, Ghastria or Har'Akir yield as many herb as Barovia is kind of impossible. Traveling Sithicus is deadly. We might be able to shift some over to Hazlan though.
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Regarding game balance, consider what happened with scrolls--the increase in price of which, MAB, you argued in favor of :D
Petre was selling a ghostly visage potion for 1100g this morning when I checked.
But it's easy enough to make ghostly visage with a single, fairly common herb. Also from that discussion:
Actually the occasion for us to make this change was simply that there was a significant imbalance between item types - e.g. a wand, book, potion and scroll that was able to cast the exact same spell and with matching limitations would vary greatly in price depending on the item type. So we made them meet at a middle ground.
Was the scroll price then right and most other things too expensive? It's hard to say and it really comes down to how we weigh the consequences up against each other.
First of all it'll definitely make it harder to be purely self-reliant, but we don't generally consider that a bad thing. While we don't shun soloers, we will always focus on encouraging the party experience and balance the challenges toward that. After all we are a roleplay server and roleplay works best when you are not on your own - the shared narrative and experience is what distinguishes it and what we made this place to foster and hone. No discredit to the lone adventurer or writing your stories on your own but it's just not what we aim for.
But of course scrolls are not just useful for soloing. They can equally be a great help when there's no spellcaster available or when teaming up with the available spellcasters doesn't become your character very well. This is where it gets more complicated though: On the one hand, we realise that there are periods where the player count is simply so low that there's just no spellcasters online, and in that event it will limit what you can do. But on the other hand we want people to be co-dependent - not just with those they are alike and can identify with, but even more so with those that they differ from. Why? Because we also believe that the meeting of differences, along with all the difficulties it entail, is a core drive for developing and furthering any narrative, and even - if we allow ourselves to be a bit philosophical - where roleplay can transcend just being your own creative outlet but also a unique way to explore something very fundamentally human. Over-ambitious you might say and perhaps so, but it's no coincidence that roleplay is professionally used to improve social understanding etc.
So in other words, while we don't want to outright prevent people from doing what they enjoy, we want to have a high degree of co-dependency across classes, races and backgrounds. And this admittedly takes higher priority than making things convenient, even if we always regret whatever frustration it may cause. We don't just do these changes carelessly.
In this regard, I believe potions are worse than scrolls. The gathering of herbs is largely a solitary endeavor and crafting potions tends to be done in isolation. All these herbs require a lot of bureaucratic overhead simply to sort them--again, a mindlessly repetitive activity that does little to enrich RP.
Whereas UMD is required to use a scroll (aside from spellcasters), virtually anyone who wants potions can craft or buy them at a much lower investment than scrolls. Why don't we have scribe scroll as a skill if not to limit the very same thing that a proliferation of potions allows?
To follow up on Soren's points, we should want even less self-reliance currently when the server has more players than ever. There is less excuse of not having anyone to party with, and many players have complained about the difficulty of finding dungeons that haven't been picked over.
Second, herbalism was already strengthened greatly by changing the stacking rules. Within a single 60 percent reduction bag it is possible to store more than 3,400 potions! True, they would weigh more than 130 lbs, but the pack mule carrying them can be perpetually bull strengthed out of that stash. In theory a second level barbarian could have many times the number of spell slots available to her as a 10th level mage, via potions.
Third, approximately three years ago herbalism was strengthened and at the time almost everyone who commented at that time said it had been made too strong. But here we are with it made even stronger. From that discussion:
My objection isn't necessarily to this specific example, but to the way it invalidates previously core aspects of a party. A well rounded party consists of those capable of dealing damage, dishing it out, healing the wounds, opening the locks, disarming the traps, curing the ailments and so on. Certain lower level buffs in consumable form is agreeable, but when you start adding the higher level variations as a consumable that's able to be reliably obtained under certain circumstances, it invalidates the roles of those that would normally come along, though I understand that part of this is because you can't expect to have a fully rounded party of seven people available at all times for the content you want to see, hence concessions need to be made. Naturally this is more of an overarching complaint towards design philosophy than this specific example, as this is just a symptom of the problem.
But any step in the right direction, I say. TL;DR; I'm for severely limiting access to these things, if not their total removal.
Instead, they've been increased and thus promoted self-reliance at a time when it needs to be discouraged.
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As both a master level herbalist and a high level spellcaster, I don't really think that the potion boon is nearly as bad as the OP implies.
First things first, adding new herbs doesn't make herbalism too easy. It doesn't affect the difficulty of herbalism at all. DC 22 herbs are not new, and the only thing that adding more has done is decentralize herb gathering routes. If you are picking your own herbs, you will still spend the same amount of time farming herbs, and if you buy your herbs, then it's not like you're actually getting any significant mileage out of having DC 22 herbs specifically. In fact, herbalism levels 5-30 are an absolute breeze to go through. The only time you will have difficulty levelling herbalism is at 1-4, when (depending on your stats) you may have difficulty succeeding *any* DCs, and levels 30+, when you begin to get less EXP for the majority of the recipes.
Regarding the new potions added, some are certainly useful. I have been playing a mundane character for the past few months and I do find myself yearning for some buffs, and potions are serviceable for some occasions. But that said, compared to a real spellcaster, most potion spells are absolute jokes. Spell Resistance potion? Even the Greater variant is easily busted through. Stoneskin? It'll save you from one or two rounds of combat at best. It's silly to compare a spellcaster to a potion hoarder because it's no contest. And this is without mentioning that most potions cast auxiliary spells like Freedom of Movement or Negative Energy Resistance. I have yet to see a Mage Armor potion, or a Greater Magic Weapon potion, and for good reason - these spells are essential. I believe that the best potions in the entire game are Haste, Greater Barkskin, and Heal. Haste is good because of its obvious combat benefits, and greater barkskin is good because it provides a source of AC that is less common than others. Heal is useful for obvious reasons. The general theme is the ubiquity of a potion's benefit.
I believe that the best solution to this apparent potion glut, is to simply add cooldowns to these potions.
//Edit: There is a bit more nuance in some potions that I failed to mention, such as the utility of the new stealth pots. I'll add to this thread later if I feel like organizing my thoughts better than in the above post, but the jist of what I'm trying to say is:
The vast majority of potions are only usual in a pinch, and their relative weakness begins to show when a real spellcaster gets involved. The best way to fix the potions that are powerful enough to be abused (or spammed) would be to add a cooldown to their cast.//
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No more belladonna pls.
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I don't see the new high level potions as problem, largely because of their caster level. The spell resistance potion for example requires some herbs from high level areas, and the SR won't help in those areas. Same with stoneskin. Most high level creatures have at least a +2 creature weapon. It really just pushed the server back closer to a crafting economy than a loot economy(which I think is better for several reasons). Most characters who can wander the mists and sithicus are more likely to sell these potions than use them for personal use.
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Imho the biggest offender is Potion of Heal. Heal is powerful class defining spell and access to them through potions cheapens the value of the real thing. I believe potions should be limited to a cap of Cure Critical and Critical regeneration.
It also makes for a culture of the rich getting richer, when you have ancient characters sitting on a mountain of Potions of Heal because they can. I'm of the opinion Potion of Heal should not be just discontinued, but disabled alltogether so existing hoards are made inert. If at all possible. Mind you, potion of Heal would be a balance wrecking thing on a high magic lvl 40 server, let alone PoTM.
The other potions, spell resistance, stoneskin etc provide weaker effects that are far easier to pierce and work around in both PvP and PvE.
Edit: Got rid of Tenser in my post seeing as it is not craftable.
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As noted previously by the creator of said potions, Tensers transformation potions are a loot only item, not crafted.
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Imho the biggest offender is Potion of Heal. Heal is powerful class defining spell and access to them through potions cheapens the value of the real thing. I believe potions should be limited to a cap of Cure Critical and Critical regeneration.
It also makes for a culture of the rich getting richer, when you have ancient characters sitting on a mountain of Potions of Heal because they can. I'm of the opinion Potion of Heal should not be just discontinued, but disabled alltogether so existing hoards are made inert. If at all possible. Mind you, potion of Heal would be a balance wrecking thing on a high magic lvl 40 server, let alone PoTM.
The other potions, spell resistance, stoneskin etc provide weaker effects that are far easier to pierce and work around in both PvP and PvE.
I agree. In my experience, potion of heal has been the only brew that causes any real issue with server dynamics.
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TBH I kinda agree that Heal is too powerful for a craftable potion, though that horse has somewhat bolted. Indeed even before it was added to herbalism, there was a way to grind Heal potions...
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I honestly haven’t found Heal to be a huge issue. As Aprog mentioned, there was a previous way to get Heal potions that I think was more disruptive to the server than obtaining them through herbalism.
As the highest DC potion available and requiring 8 herbs, it’s not possible for a whole lot of people to crank these out like crazy. The caster level of the potion is also significantly lower than where the spell will max out. While this could change the outcome of a dangerous fight or PvP encounter, its definitely not going to replace a healer.
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I honestly haven’t found Heal to be a huge issue. As Aprog mentioned, there was a previous way to get Heal potions that I think was more disruptive to the server than obtaining them through herbalism.
As the highest DC potion available and requiring 8 herbs, it’s not possible for a whole lot of people to crank these out like crazy. The caster level of the potion is also significantly lower than where the spell will max out. While this could change the outcome of a dangerous fight or PvP encounter, its definitely not going to replace a healer.
Actually, I would argue that Heal potions really *could* replace a healer. Though they are weaker versions of the spell than a healer could cast, they still heal enough for a player to simply drink another. Given that you reasonably could stockpile potions of Heal (the herbs are actually quite easy to gather en masse and the DC of the potion isn't *that* high), the output of a potionbot would be greater than a healer with limited, albeit more potent, casts. The role of healer is already somewhat limited in its range to emergency situations (the old adage of "it's better to not get hit" ringing true in most cases) or circumstances where damage is inevitable, and potions can provide healing in a more time sensitive and convenient way. No longer is it necessary for the healer to have good reflexes and instincts regarding when someone will have a surge of damage and who to focus their efforts on and when -- with Heal potions, any combatant may take agency in their own healing, and do so effectively when they see fit.
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While what you’re suggesting is possible in theory, I’ve never seen it done in practice. Someone familiar with herb locations and with the skills or spells to obtain them easily can get a good number of these herbs - but the amount of time necessary to collect enough herbs to replace a healer (especially at the higher levels) would be massive. A level 15 Cleric would heal more damage per use of the spell, and potentially have 5-10 heal spells per rest - depending on their domains, Wisdom, and metamagic. By contrast, someone would have to collect 40 - 80 of the correct herbs (some being seasonal or harder to find in quantity) and hope not to fail any crafting checks. Substantially more if you account for failure and the drop in actual damage healed. This also doesn’t take into account the lower level healing spells offered by a Cleric or any of the divine/healing based feats available now.
If someone takes the time to master herbalism and spends that much time collecting and brewing herbs to replace a healer for a few combat encounters, I say more power to em’ :rock:
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Heal potions are time-consuming enough that you don't really want to use them for PvE, no; always better and much, much, much cheaper to get a cleric or dedicated healer.
But the possibility of having a stack of Heal potions does change the PvP meta somewhat significantly.
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No more belladonna pls.
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Belladona may not be brewable into potions, but it remains a cost effective (read free) option low level players can use to increase their protection against shapeshifters. Savvy players will also ALWAYS keep some in store as they are known to be of use in DM plots too. Furthermore, because of the way the script is set up, its presence does not reduce the probability of the other herbs spawning. IE: When they spawn they are NOT taking another herb's place. There is truly no reasons to rail against them or pull them from the game.
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I honestly haven’t found Heal to be a huge issue. As Aprog mentioned, there was a previous way to get Heal potions that I think was more disruptive to the server than obtaining them through herbalism.
As the highest DC potion available and requiring 8 herbs, it’s not possible for a whole lot of people to crank these out like crazy. The caster level of the potion is also significantly lower than where the spell will max out. While this could change the outcome of a dangerous fight or PvP encounter, its definitely not going to replace a healer.
Agreed. In most cases, by the time you acquire the access and skill needed to make heal potions they are antiquated in most circumstances besides pvp. Even in pvp items that give divine power charge uses are far more overpowered in my experience. No high level character is going to rely heavily on heal potions to adventure. Pretty much any functional high level party on potm needs someone who can cast mass heal in large quantities.
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I largely agree with what you've said, CosmicRay, but I don't think lowering the spawn rate of things like Woundwart or other low level "learner" herbs is good for newbies. By all means let's tweak the supply of the higher level herbs, but let's be discerning. The main issue is at higher levels and with more powerful potions.
The script allows to do both actually. Drop the general spawning rate of herbs, while boosting the rate of particular herbs. This is likely the best course of action at this time. I simply need your help to identify the problematic herbs.
Misty willows is prime suspect number one, but what else?
I think the adjustment would be useful to address the concerns about the more potent potions being far too common rather than outright removing the ability to make the healing potions.
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I could repost all the arguments from the previous discussion of heal potions when there was near unanimity that they should be removed from the game or at the very least made available only by gathering herbs from Sithicus. To quote Mika then:
I do like the idea of moving the 'rare' reagent on this to Sithicus.
I could also point out the logical failure of believing an item that gives a perpetual +1 to strength is OP'd...but finding nothing wrong with a stack of 99 bull strength potions occupying one square in a player's inventory, thus allowing the same PC to have more than a +1 modifier in strength whenever desired. (Iridni has more than 70 bull strength potions currently without even grinding herbalism, just gradually tinkering at it and accumulating them.)
Be that as it may, she has a +5 modifier to herbalism, so instead of wasting time in a futile effort to point out the imbalance, I'm just going to join in exploiting it :P
https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=49585.msg608654#msg608654
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I'd just like to say that tinkering with how herbs spawn only affects future stockpiles. It does nothing to the player equivalent of an oil sheikh who has millions in the bank and sits on a stockpile of 30-100 potions of Heal.
If they are not used for PvE, then they exist as a "I win" button for PvP. And on PoTM PCs get closured all the time because of PvP involving high level characters so this concern is very much real. You can't use the "they came prepared" argument when one character has the advantage of a handful of years of hoarding over the other.
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I'd just like to say that tinkering with how herbs spawn only affects future stockpiles. It does nothing to the player equivalent of an oil sheikh who has millions in the bank and sits on a stockpile of 30-100 potions of Heal.
If they are not used for PvE, then they exist as a "I win" button for PvP. And on PoTM PCs get closured all the time because of PvP involving high level characters so this concern is very much real. You can't use the "they came prepared" argument when one character has the advantage of a handful of years of hoarding over the other.
While I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying here it does make me curious where we draw the line. Do we start yanking gear from old characters that either doesn't spawn on the loot tables anymore or has a new updated, less powerful version? What about insane amounts of gold?
I can see an argument for removing Heal potions or at the very least making them far more difficult, I'm just not sure this is the right reasoning for it.
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As one of the three people to have figured out several high tier recipes... I don't agree with you. This significantly helps low levels out. And it evens the field for people who do not use umd or magic. The server is still scary with these aspects.
I almost never am able to make Heal potions or Elixir's of life.
Heal potions cost 8 herbs to make. 2 of those herbs only grow in one or two seasons. It takes HOURS of time to gather all of this stuff whilst competing with everyone else on the server. Herbalism because my character's entire life because of the fact that this craft takes SO Much time to invest into just to get a good stock to sell. It's either that or a MASSIVE gold dip just buying herbs. It helps the economy on the server, it helps make things not so difficult for new players.
I'll put it this way, I almost quit the server during nce because it was so difficult to get into things. I know several other people did too.
I understand that most of you veteran players want to make the server hard, and you want it to be difficult, but when it comes down to it- that doesn't breed a good environment for new players to keep the server alive. You gotta walk a fine line and compromise on some things.
From my personal experience, I feel as if things are good the way they are. I simply don't agree that it's too easy, or too powerful. I think the person who designed it did a service to the server, and I tip my hat to them.
As a side note.. NO ONE has 100 heal potions on this server unless they are INSANE, have no life, and spend 15+ hours to gather the herbs, save them, and then brew them for hours. I can make maybe 6 heal potions every 2-3 weeks depending on the seasons, server rolling back, and my work week. I work 40+ hours a week and even then am managing this. When I mass brew, I brew for 3-6 hour sessions (I know I'm crazy). And when I gather, I am spending most of my time doing this. If anything, I would almost argue that it takes /too much/ time to gather and brew things. I seriously doubt anyone in their right mind has managed to gather 100 heal potions unless they are A. a millionaire in gold and buy them, or b. a vampire who can stay up all day and night grinding herbs. It's just ridiculous to think about.
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As a side note.. NO ONE has 100 heal potions on this server unless they are INSANE, have no life, and spend 15+ hours to gather the herbs, save them, and then brew them for hours. I can make maybe 6 heal potions every 2-3 weeks depending on the seasons, server rolling back, and my work week. I work 40+ hours a week and even then am managing this. When I mass brew, I brew for 3-6 hour sessions (I know I'm crazy). And when I gather, I am spending most of my time doing this. If anything, I would almost argue that it takes /too much/ time to gather and brew things. I seriously doubt anyone in their right mind has managed to gather 100 heal potions unless they are A. a millionaire in gold and buy them, or b. a vampire who can stay up all day and night grinding herbs. It's just ridiculous to think about.
Whole rest of the argument aside, I've seen screenshots with people who have this number of heal pots. So, it's clearly possible and does happen. Just consider some people have characters that span 6+ RL years, that they play every day (or close to it). Things add up over time when you're not really using any resources on the count of being level 20 and fully geared, with equally powerful buddies.
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I understand that most of you veteran players want to make the server hard, and you want it to be difficult, but when it comes down to it- that doesn't breed a good environment for new players to keep the server alive. You gotta walk a fine line and compromise on some things.
I have no interest in advocating anything that makes the server harder for the new player. I feel that Potion of Heal actually makes things harder for the new player in the long run, because of the PvP element. One may not have a choice in getting entangled in PvP.
I play a character with 30 ranks in herbalism. Learned the vast majority of recipes on my own because discovery is part of the fun. Most of the time this was self gathered herbs too, although I have bought a modest amount of boxes compared to the more mercantile herbalists.
I understand the effort that goes in to it. It's simply that when you introduce near limitless funds and a ton of time to the crafting system, even a rare thing can become something that can be grinded out to a gamebreaking extent. Potion of Heal is simply too powerful. Those who have it will sit on it. Those who don't have it will lose eventually.
Cure critical wounds and Regenerate Critical wounds are potent enough in the hands of a non-divine caster on a low/medium magic server like PoTM.
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Yeah, there are definitely players with dozens if not 100 Heal pots out there. This is the issue with grind: what's feasible for someone with a 9 to 5 regular job and a balanced life is trivial for someone who's unemployed and spending the majority of their waking hours at the gaming computer. I don't say that from a place of judgement, I've been in both situations and am looking forward to be able to spend a week playing hardcore again when my current work commitment ends and I can blow off some steam. I'm merely observing what's clearly true: crafts reward grind, which rewards the people who have the most time to invest into it. I think I've made around 15 or 20 Heal potions over the years via herbalism (more via the non-craft route); and I could easily have made much more if indeed I'd had the time and been so inclined.
So a consequence of the current herbalism system is that some people will churn out huge amounts of Heals. They're not aberrations of the system, they are merely a statistical extreme of the Bell curve.
Whether the current status quo is good or not, and whether some things should be cut or not, that's a complicated question. I don't think eliminating back stocks is fair -- and the team didn't remove old Greater Sanctuary scrolls despite that being stronger even than Heal stacks -- but even the question of removing the Heal herbalism recipe raises the question of where to stop. Do you also eliminate the other grinding recipe? What about Heal potions dropping in loot?
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Alright I think this is getting a bit out of hands with the Heal potions conversation.
My plan thus far.
1) Not removing any potions. This is about rebalancing herb spawning.
2) A general decrease of the amount of herbs spawning. Nothing too drastic, just enough to bring them back at a level somewhat comparable to before the influx of new herbs.
3) The spawning rate of the entry level herbs (including all the Cure wounds potions herbs) would remain the same.
4) Because they don't spawn in sufficient quantities, the new herbs I added in tiny domains will be made to spawn all year long (except winter) instead of being just seasonal herbs and with a slightly higher probability than now.
5) Because they spawn too much, the new herbs I added in large domains like Hazlan will be made to spawn in a single season instead of two. Exception for Sithicus, the place still has few spawning nodes and is suitably challenging that if you get those herbs you deserve it.
6) Where seasons do not apply, like the Mists areas or cave herbs, the spawning rate will be dropped slightly further.
Will it fix all balances issues? No. But it will be a step in a good direction.
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Alright I think this is getting a bit out of hands with the Heal potions conversation.
My plan thus far.
1) Not removing any potions. This is about rebalancing herb spawning.
2) A general decrease of the amount of herbs spawning. Nothing too drastic, just enough to bring them back at a level somewhat comparable to before the influx of new herbs.
3) The spawning rate of the entry level herbs (including all the Cure wounds potions herbs) would remain the same.
4) Because they don't spawn in sufficient quantities, the new herbs I added in tiny domains will be made to spawn all year long (except winter) instead of being just seasonal herbs and with a slightly higher probability than now.
5) Because they spawn too much, the new herbs I added in large domains like Hazlan will be made to spawn in a single season instead of two. Exception for Sithicus, the place still has few spawning nodes and is suitably challenging that if you get those herbs you deserve it.
6) Where seasons do not apply, like the Mists areas or cave herbs, the spawning rate will be dropped slightly further.
Will it fix all balances issues? No. But it will be a step in a good direction.
Just how much of a reduction are we talking? There are some areas where only 4 - 5 herbs typically spawn. Will these be reduced even further as a result? It's dreadful enough trying to gather herbs on a mundane character with no consistent access to speed-boosting abilities when trying to cover a large map.
This whole discussion was started around how herbalism is "too easy" and "too powerful" - which is ridiculous in my opinion, considering the sheer amount of time required to invest in it to bring a mundane character onto a slightly more level playing field with other classes, or to make some coin. It's an appealing craft because of the utility it offers if you put in the time.
Making this even more time consuming is going to be a drag if the change in spawn rate is significant. Even more so if herbs become even more seasonal than they are today.
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It's very much easy in comparison to other professions but that isn't a damning indictment on herbalism's part but rather on the rest of the professions instead. Blacksmithing you have to slog through armor materials that are literally useless in comparison to it's NPC store-bought counterpart. Leatherworking you'll be tearing through mink fur, wolf fur, and literally every fur up until you get to a select few.
Herbalism? You somehow manage to get the first woundwart light healing potion and that's pretty useful low levels and useful to keep around simply for reviving downed players.
Herbalism is what a profession should be, instead of it slowly turning into the other professions. Sure, blacksmithing is nice to have but you'll have quite some time to go before you're cranking out the industry standard: steel fullplate with ancient dire croc skin and even then you have to compete with already established blacksmiths after spending 100k+ and days of grinding. Herbalism has a lot less 'junk' potions.
By the way, that industry standard of steel fullplate with ancient dire croc priced roughly at 2.5k? You still need a hide curer for that lining and that's an end-game item on a very specific type of crocodile that doesn't always spawn. In theory, you would collab with your hide curer buddy but next to nobody's doing that or doing that for long because that hide-curer buddy isn't always around. More people opt to grind it themselves and we eventually get craft-it-alls that span over the course of the server's life.
TBH, MAB, I don't think there's winning either way for you. Herbalism has a undeniable utility that scales well with levels and with no limits on how many professions you can have, everyone's dipping into it.
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There are now substantially more linings and leathers. Frankly some are better to old time end all be all that dire crocodile was, to certain PC's. With that said, armour crafting being a brutal slog is no joke.
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There are now substantially more linings and leathers.
Goes to show how antiquated I am. Can't wait to have a peek at the new linings.
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I could repost all the arguments from the previous discussion of heal potions when there was near unanimity that they should be removed from the game or at the very least made available only by gathering herbs from Sithicus. To quote Mika then:
I do like the idea of moving the 'rare' reagent on this to Sithicus.
I wouldn't say that there was near unanimity that heal potions should be removed from the game. That applied to Greater Restoration potions, which were removed.
Also, quoting without context doesn't really tell the whole story - when heal potions were originally introduced, they only required 1 of each primary ingredient and 'hardest' ingredient to find spawned much more frequently. The recipe has since been adjusted to to require 2x the amount of herbs and spawning of certain types of those herbs has been turned down - so the context around the original arguments from 3 years ago is substantially different from now.
I also think Aprog makes a really good point. Some of the more extreme examples pointed out in this thread are from players who have extremely powerful characters and a lot of time on their hands. Trying to compensate too much for those rare cases will make things pretty lousy for the more casual players, IMO.
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TBH, MAB, I don't think there's winning either way for you. Herbalism has a undeniable utility that scales well with levels and with no limits on how many professions you can have, everyone's dipping into it.
It's not about winning. I knew from the get go we'd have to adjust herb spawning down the road. I needed some time to assess how the new herbs impacted the game. Which ones needed to spawn more, which ones needed to spawn less etc. And, of course, the observations of herbalist players too. It is therefore good we have this conversation.
I'll keep the technical details of my plan between my fellow devs. The adjustments I propose, pending approval of my peers, will be performed a little at a time. The spawning script is a behemoth, its better to go at it incrementally. Rest assured we're not gutting herbalism, the goal is a common sense balance for the module.
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So for feedback: I might be echoing some of what others before me have already said but I don't know maybe consider upping the herbalism DC on some of the recipes for the more blatantly powerful potions?
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So for feedback: I might be echoing some of what others before me have already said but I don't know maybe consider upping the herbalism DC on some of the recipes for the more blatantly powerful potions?
They're already pretty high imo.
Not in comparison to someone who will play the game for a year non-stop without a job,
Nor in comparison to people that've played here for years as well already,
but, it's pretty high. Working 40h weeks myself, been playing here for quite a while and did a heavy focus on herbalism, even had a week off work at one point, I'm still not going to make potions of heal reliably at all and I can't get XP from anything but difficult high end potions at this point.
I'm perfectly sitting in the crux of 'Only way I can level to reliably make end-game potions is to be lvl 16+ with groups venturing into stupidly dangerous areas, or make a large amount of other potions to consume to ward myself when going into those dangerous areas, which quickly escalates how many herbs I'm 'actually' using to make those potions.
It's fine where it is. Stoneskin potions are just HP buffers. Spell Resistance potions are pierced by caster level. Ethereal Visage (my favourite) won't hold up to Adamantine enchanted weapons. Potion of Heal is an insanely high DC that costs low-mid levels considerable resources to obtain one of the herbs for.
If anyone has 100+ heal potions they must already be either very long time players or they're a recently mid-high level healer with at least a +7 modifier going to places they will need those potions.
Then there's people that will grind for vanity pictures but I don't know, if people really have THAT much time on their hands to play a game that's a completely different issue that goes beyond new or existing potions.
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To put it into perspective, you would need 200 of 4 different types of herbs to make 100 heal potions, all with a high DC. So that’s 800 herbs, which frankly I don’t think I’ve seen anyone have the time for.
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To put it into perspective, you would need 200 of 4 different types of herbs to make 100 heal potions, all with a high DC. So that’s 800 herbs, which frankly I don’t think I’ve seen anyone have the time for.
Or 23ish boxes, which is entirely achievable on a thick wallet and a bit of waiting at the outskirts, given that a productive picker might bring you 6 boxes at a time. Granted they would have to be the specific herbs.
The grind necessary to make Potions of Heal is entirely irrelevant when you introduce time and bottomless bank accounts to it. And because of that, the Potion of Heal specifically can never be balanced out with lower spawn rates or higher DCs. It simply needs to not exist.
Gargatuan sized stocks of Potion of Heal exist already in the hands of the very few. And just slowing down the creation of it simply means the ones that have it are in even more of a position of power, because newer characters now have difficulty reaching it. The old can simply sit on what they already have and if challenged, chug away.
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I used to harvest 800 herbs over 72 hours or so when I was doing it for another. That sort of thing is entirely feasible.
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I dunno... I just feel like people have this weird idea that there is some sort of danger of the game becoming easier when almost everything in the environment is brutally unforgiving.
Okay mist herbs for example... Are usually in areas where there are greater mist horrors. Those have an aura of fear you have to overcome and can spam a negative energy attack just by you touching them. You can get dead, pretty fast from just one of those and they tend to be in groups. They decloak and your mid level char is essentially boned if they wind up surrounded.
Oh think you can just wipe out the swarm of those guys guarding the sweet, sweet herbs? No, they are tanky with high hp and oddly completely fireproofed.
It takes several hits to down one. You can turn them as an undead but if you aren't a cleric with repose domain that just gives the GMHs a temporary fear effect back on them, which means they are still running around on the map and going to hurt you when you crash into one or vice versa.
I've seen some high level chars do it and crunch past a pack of them eventually but your level 18 druid, ranger or paladin isn't gonna have a complete breeze walk in the park when there are other factors to consider.
Maybe people should chill a little?
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I dunno... I just feel like people have this weird idea that there is some sort of danger of the game becoming easier when almost everything in the environment is brutally unforgiving.
My argument (balance) is the opposite. You conclude by talking about high levels succeeding. That's the point of balance.
I don't think anyone would disagree with these two statements:
1) POTM is intensely hard for truly new players with truly new, low-level PCs.
2) At some point, experienced, high-level players are no longer challenged by the server itself. Although a few pockets of content may be undoable (for example, Ooze City, or so I'm told), they know to avoid those places. Otherwise, they have beaten the game. What keeps them coming back is interactions with other players and DMs.
For extremely high level PCs played by experienced players, the DMs have quite the difficulty in coming up with encounters that are balanced and challenging. They must control the number of PCs in attendance because crafting an encounter for three or four 16+ levels is a different beast than eight 16+ levels.
I am not arguing at all that herbalism makes the server too easy. What I'm saying is it furthers imbalances toward players who have played and play more and also tips the balance more toward those who do it versus those who do not.
On that point, if herbalism becomes so good it is a no-brainer essential, then those who have the time to invest in it are favored over those who don't or would rather spend their time doing something else.
And if it is "controlled" by putting herbs in difficult content areas, then it increases the disparity between powerful PCs and those who aren't as strong.
In an earlier post I quoted Soren extensively on why elements like scrolls and potions are bad for the server's goal of shared narratives, so I won't repeat him again and thus myself. But I, at least, am not arguing herbalism makes the server too easy. What inevitably happens is, to compensate, the server is actually made harder and harder...for new people.
Herbalism was plenty strong before, and now it is much more difficult to learn as a new player/PC, but also a way for someone playing in relative isolation to leverage extensive play time toward greater power. That is the hallmark of the kind of play POTM has historically discouraged. Consequently, I think the changes have been largely detrimental to the server's unique and fragile ecosystem.
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Ah, those are some good points too Iridni.
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The reality of any crafting system is that it favors those who have put more time and resources in to it. Which frankly, to me, just makes sense. Yes, you are going to have the players who try to hoard resources and spend unbelievable amounts of time playing. But unless you are going to limit how much someone plays, that is going to happen no matter what you do.
I feel like I am a player who plays somewhere between casually and moderately. My herbalist is a 20th level druid. On average, I probably produce 3-5 heal potions a month because I only produce for self consumption. I then use 1-3 per month if I don't go to sithicus, or 5-10 if I do try sithicus that month. Hence, for the vast majority of high level players I doubt they are just sitting on stacks of potions. Also, most potion brewers will only sell the same buyer one potion of heal at a time which limits this tremendously.
The other part that isn't being considered by the perceived inbalance is higher level characters need higher level material to receive the same effect. Saying high level characters shouldn't have more access to high level things means what they have access to, is actually, less helpful for them .
Let's say a level 10 char and level 20 character have the same access to high level herbalism ingredients. This means they would have similar access to the amount of high level healing potions. However, the 20th level character has twice as many hit points as the tenth level character. This means the character needs twice as powerful of a potion, to achieve the same effect.
The only potion I am worried overspawns has already been addressed and that's the misty willow. The rest of the system seems well enough balanced to me.
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One other detriment I forgot to mention about making crafting in general more powerful while making it more difficult is it adds to the reluctance of players to closure their PCs. Because of the grindy, repetitious nature of crafting, when players talk about having stockpiled 100 healing potions, for example, who would ever want to do that again?
This is true for all crafts, but herbalism has been the least like that. Making it more powerful will cause an urge to make it more difficult in the name of balance (although this introduces other forms of imbalance that I explicated previously).
Being an accomplished herbalist, therefore, will represent another huge time sink on a PC and thus deter a player from letting the PC go.
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Potions of spells higher than 3 are simply doing more harm for the feel of the server, its gameplay and its party make up dynamics than I believe the people implementing such potions would immediately realize. If you make something farm-able, it will be farmed. We have to account for the fact we have players clocking over 60 hours of gameplay a week. In any D&D setting, but perhaps especially in Ravenloft, anything in potion form beyond a Potion of Water Breathing or Oil of Keen Edge should be seem super rare and powerful. Even accounting for our persistent world set up, I believe we do our setting a disservice by making potions for most spells and beyond the spell levels intended.
I would suggest making wands a craft that fills those needs and moving much of the spells of 4th and 5th level off the potions list (And therefore requiring no class restriction or skill ranks) and move them to the wands (where they are class locked or require the use magic device skill). Not only would this make higher level spell effects more difficult to acquire but it would make a fighter have to find a person that knows how to use a wand or fake it.
For the longest time we filled such gaps with single use and charged items along the lines of a wondrous item in flavor, to fill in gaps, but it never fully bridged the need to benefit of others. The need for others should achieve "getting access to spell effects I do not have access to" rather than "getting to save my well stocked inventory resources because I am getting the same spells for free" That's just my old, grumpy, well meaning, two-cents.