Monks are good in a flanking role. They are not as strong as their beefier counterparts in terms of AC and frontlining, but their AC and access to the Tumble skill, as well as their incredible speed, gives them enough AC to run behind enemy lines and get flanking bonuses to help mitigate their less than stellar BAB. Additionally, monks have an insane number of APR. If a monk builds for crit range their lower BAB will not matter nearly as much. The APR and speed also make monks excellent at chasing things down, and keeping them down via Improved Knockdown.
Of course, I can't say I've seen much monk gear drop lately, either (except for some gloves). And monks do have a lesser kit for stealthing compared to other stealthing classes, though I feel that this is mitigated by their utility. A new addition in EE, Shrouded Dance, seems perfect in the hands of a stealthy monk however. As long as a monk can hit a DC 30 Hide check, the monk gains HiPS and 50% conealment for one round. Since monks are so fast, they will get the most use out of this tool as an escape mechanism simply due to the distance they can put between them and the enemy.
All in all, on paper monks might look like the "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none" class but they can be so much more than that. Certainly there is room for improvement, but I think it is a step too far to call them a "novelty class." At the very least, monks have some niches in the meta that they can comfortably fill.
Monks can be incredibly powerful in the higher levels if you put the work into it.
Here are a few perks that make monks very good:
-Highest saving throws in the game.- true
-They get the most attacks per round of any other class. 6 attacks per round, without haste, at lvl 18 is totally massive.- Yes but their ab is so bad only the first one is a good chance to hit
-They have a massive, almost stupid, speed.- Yes speed is their big thing
-Their normal attacks are effectively +3 EB, which is even better than enchanted weapons, on par with adamantine.-look at the Ab chart and get back to me
-They get improve evasion, which makes any reflex save spell pretty much useless against them.-nice and all but it does not make them worry anyone, not the only class with this benefit
-They get a some free Spell Resistance of 10 + level, which means a nasty 30 SR whenever you walk in the street at lvl 20. Have fun casters!- lvl 12, not strong enough to be meaningful against a good caster of the same level, Dwarfed by Barbarian SR
-You're immune to all poisons.- You're already forced to be a herbalist so this is not a big benefit
You can deflect arrows.- 1 arrow per round
-You can an instakill ability, quivering palm.-not sure about DC's on this so cannot comment on the advantage
-Normal weapons can't hurt you once you get lvl 20.- yeah lvl 20 is grand but you have to get there and who are you fighting with normal weapons at lvl 20? try a base soak item some time, most things cut through it
-Being virtually unkillable by anything because of the combination of hp/AC/speed/saves. You can always get away from a fight. yep, the speed and the AC, very late,- it's great to be hard to kill, not so much to not be able to hit anything. The AC is nothing compared to a class with buffs. compare to a fighter long term and you are trading 2 ac for 7 ab. I'll assume the hit points comment was a joke
Now, of course, there is some negatives to being a monk, and lower levels are definitly harder. But one advantage of monks is that they keep growing in strength as they level. A normal fighter can usually get their AC around 26-27 unbuff with a few items early on, but then, they stop getting more AC until they get enchanted gear. Monks always keep getting AC bonuses, because of tumble, AC bonus from being a monk, parry, etc. Also, they are one of the classes that gets the most from a caster, since there is so many of their stats that can be buffed.
So no, monks are definitly not a weak class. They are very strong, but you need to put more time into them than you'd do with other classes.
-They get a some free Spell Resistance of 10 + level, which means a nasty 30 SR whenever you walk in the street at lvl 20. Have fun casters!Spell Resistance is a DC the caster must roll on a d20+Caster Level+Spell Pen. An equal level caster must roll a 10+. That means the monk has a 45% chance of being saved by their SR. With Greater Spell Pen (And who wouldn't have that if you're a pure caster?), you're rolling a d20+24. The caster needs to roll a 6+, giving the monk just a 25% chance of the SR saving them. This was for a long time their big draw.. but now a barbarian can get a 36SR -- 40SR, if you're a half-orc.
-They get the most attacks per round of any other class. 6 attacks per round, without haste, at lvl 18 is totally massive.Which is awesome, if you can hit anything. Monks are the only medium AB class with no way to mitigate having their medium AB. This is the most common complaint I hear from people who are playing the class.
-Their normal attacks are effectively +3 EB, which is even better than enchanted weapons, on par with adamantine.Again useful, if you can hit them. Sadly, they aren't actually a +3EB, as that +3AB would have been incredibly useful.
-You can deflect arrows.Which is cool, but sadly only counts against one missile per round. Given that you have such ridiculous AC, you're probably safe against incoming missiles anyway.
-You can an instakill ability, quivering palm.Useful, if you can hit and if you're hitting a target that has no fort save. Even then, a DC22 against an end-game opponent is not tremendously impressive.
-Normal weapons can't hurt you once you get lvl 20.Awesome, except that you generally aren't fighting anything at level 20 that won't have at least a +1 weapon. This is thus basically just neat fluff outside of some kind of DM event.
-Being virtually unkillable by anything because of the combination of hp/AC/speed/saves. You can always get away from a fight.And this brings us to probably the most salient point. You are great at getting out of a fight. Now that you have Ethereal Jaunt, the only thing that can kill you is a mage throwing IGMS-- which, granted, you will statistically have a 25% chance to ignore, better than most. But none of that really makes you useful to a party. You get a whole lot of really good quality of life benefits, but there's nothing that a monk brings to a group that someone else doesn't bring better.
Not every caster will take the two penetration feats, and even a 25% is already very good.My entire point was that one has to talk about the context of the thing. SR30 doesn't make one "caster proof." At best, it makes one caster proof 45% of the time if we're talking about equal-level encounters which is the only way you can actually guage any classes abilities relative to any other classes. We won't even talk about what happens if the mage thinks to spell breach you.
About the barbarian, only half-orc can get to 36 SR, and that's will a whole lot of feats, and only during rage. Non-half-orc barbs will be maxed at 32, and only during rage, while Monks have that spell resistance ALL THE TIME.
-Added Extra Wild Shape/Extra Rage feats
Will Extra Rage affect the spell resistance for Mystic Rage the way most other Rage feats do?
Yes.
Honestly the monsters on this server don't have the highest AC that you could imagine. And with 6-7 attacks per round, you ARE going to land some hits, even if it's only on 20. In a PvP fight when both are fighting on expertise or improve expertise, the monk will usually win cause he will have so many more attacks than your opponent.If I have 6 attacks per round but due to my low AB only hit on 20s, that's statistically the same odds as someone who has only 3 attacks per round and can hit on 19s. If someone can hit on 18s, their one attack per round would have the same odds.
They are +3 EB to pass damage reduction, so no they don't add to your AB, but even if you hit, if you can't get passed the damage reduction, hitting will do you no good.Any melee class can get +3EB through enchanting an item, or even just from varnishes.Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that this is nothing, just not as impressive in context as it sounds when listed in a vaccuum.
A DC 22 against any class that doesn't have Fort has main save is actually huge. Spellcraft don't count for that save, so even with someone who is at 16 fort, you have a 25% chance of instakilling him. Not OP?As mentioned, the problem is that you have to be able to hit the thing you're aiming at. Quivering palm is one use per day. You thus need to actually land the blow, AND them fail the save, AND it be something lower level than you. As you just pointed out a moment ago, in pvp you're going to be fishing for 20s.
I agree it might not be as good as barbarian damage reduction, but it's still something.It is something but that was never the point of any of this. As I summarized at the end, they have a whole lot of neat little quality of life things, but none of them actually make them particularly great at the core function and thus they don't get to contribute much to the party as a whole.
Also, you can take disarm and just take your opponent's weapon away, and laugh as they can't hurt you.Everyone gets disarm, so that's not really a special class feature but since you bring it up monks are going to be worse at disarming than just about anyone because they have the lowest AB. Disarm applies a -6 penalty to an attack roll on a class where AB is already the main complaint.
You are the best to tank spells from a mage. You have improve evasion. You can sit around in the middle of an army of ennemies, and just laugh as your mage does any damage spell he sees fit, since you will dodge them all.If they have no spell pen, then you will dodge 45% of their spells. If they do, you have 25%. If they breach you, your SR goes down by 5. You thus have at best 25%, at worst, none. Keep in mind there are no saves for Greater Spell Breach, and your SR does not defend against it.
Antagonize and Expertise will help you a lot in bringing your AC up and lowering your opponents AC.No one has accused monks of lacking for AC, and as I already stated, monks DO NOT get Antagonize. They are the only middle-BAB class that has no way of mitigating this fact. Antagonize is not a class skill they receive. You would at best have to cross-class the skill and then invest heavily in gear. If the discussion is about class features, class features the class does not possess do not weigh in that classes' favor.
I am unsure what to say about your claim that barbarians are immune to sneaks. Uncanny dodge 2 doesn't make you immune to flanking, they only make you keep your Dex Ac and dodge AC when flanked. Defensive awareness 2 is what makes you immune to flank, and only dwarven defenders have this feat, it's what gives them a niche. The Ravenloft Wikia states that it is immunity to flanked, but unless there was a change in the last Hak on that, it is untrue.
With the upcoming migration to EE, a few more changes have been made to classes/balance/items/etc. I've outlined them here in no particular order:
(...)
Feats:
-Added the following feats (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=48278.0).
-Moved Disarm/Knockdown to level 1 so they are granted at character creation
-Uncanny Dodge II (as per EE) now grants immunity to flanking and thus sneak attack from flanking except from rogues four levels higher than the character. This is hardcoded with EE.
He's not the first nor the last monk high level player on the server. His opinion isn't worth more than ours, and to suggest it is while ignoring what the class is actually good at is merely bias. When people argue for boosting the monk but forget how Diamond Soul works or think that they ought to hit as hard as frontliners, they aren't merely arguing from anecdotes, they are ignoring design.
It's also absurd to suggest monks are useless. Monks are very strong in parties when properly buffed. A Monk + caster pair can duo most of the content on this server. Yes, their flexibility and focus on defence means they're not as useful as some other classes in PvE, but I've often seen party wipes where only the Monk got away.
The monk's only true weakness is this: they need buffs, more so than most classes. And actually, a Monk willing to grind away at herbalism and alchemy can be pretty self-reliant.
Should the fact that some Monk players don't want to grind crafts and aren't super interested in PvP mean we should ignore the class's potential in the hands of a skilled PvPer with time to grind? God, I hope not.
He's not the first nor the last monk high level player on the server. His opinion isn't worth more than ours, and to suggest it is while ignoring what the class is actually good at is merely bias. When people argue for boosting the monk but forget how Diamond Soul works or think that they ought to hit as hard as frontliners, they aren't merely arguing from anecdotes, they are ignoring design.
It's also absurd to suggest monks are useless. Monks are very strong in parties when properly buffed. A Monk + caster pair can duo most of the content on this server. Yes, their flexibility and focus on defence means they're not as useful as some other classes in PvE, but I've often seen party wipes where only the Monk got away.
The monk's only true weakness is this: they need buffs, more so than most classes. And actually, a Monk willing to grind away at herbalism and alchemy can be pretty self-reliant.
Should the fact that some Monk players don't want to grind crafts and aren't super interested in PvP mean we should ignore the class's potential in the hands of a skilled PvPer with time to grind? God, I hope not.
He's not the first nor the last monk high level player on the server. His opinion isn't worth more than ours, and to suggest it is while ignoring what the class is actually good at is merely bias.
When people argue for boosting the monk but forget how Diamond Soul works or think that they ought to hit as hard as frontliners, they aren't merely arguing from anecdotes, they are ignoring design.
It's also absurd to suggest monks are useless. Monks are very strong in parties when properly buffed.
A Monk + caster pair can duo most of the content on this server. Yes, their flexibility and focus on defence means they're not as useful as some other classes in PvE, but I've often seen party wipes where only the Monk got away.
The monk's only true weakness is this: they need buffs, more so than most classes. And actually, a Monk willing to grind away at herbalism and alchemy can be pretty self-reliant. Should the fact that some Monk players don't want to grind crafts and aren't super interested in PvP mean we should ignore the class's potential in the hands of a skilled PvPer with time to grind? God, I hope not.
He's not the first nor the last monk high level player on the server. His opinion isn't worth more than ours, and to suggest it is while ignoring what the class is actually good at is merely bias. When people argue for boosting the monk but forget how Diamond Soul works or think that they ought to hit as hard as frontliners, they aren't merely arguing from anecdotes, they are ignoring design.
It's also absurd to suggest monks are useless. Monks are very strong in parties when properly buffed. A Monk + caster pair can duo most of the content on this server. Yes, their flexibility and focus on defence means they're not as useful as some other classes in PvE, but I've often seen party wipes where only the Monk got away.
The monk's only true weakness is this: they need buffs, more so than most classes. And actually, a Monk willing to grind away at herbalism and alchemy can be pretty self-reliant.
Should the fact that some Monk players don't want to grind crafts and aren't super interested in PvP mean we should ignore the class's potential in the hands of a skilled PvPer with time to grind? God, I hope not.
+1 to that.
Also, nobody will beat a monk in a fist fight. Maybe at lower levels, a barb or a fighter might be able to contest, but monks will always beat everyone else in a fistfight.
I have yet to see a single monk roleplayed as a monk and instead they are all just brawlers. This isnt isolated to this server, I dont think I've ever met a monk on any server who actually RPed a MONK. I wouldn't bother making any more changes to the class personally. I do not mean to offend any monk players here but I also will not blow smoke up your butts either. I just find Monks to be a cheese class that hurts my immersion more than helps it every time I see one. Maybe someday I'll meet a convincing monk but after about 10+ years on and off of NWN, I still have not met one.
I mean, pretty much nothing can beat a paladin or a cleric when they are full buff. That's the point of their class. If they have time to buff, they are huge powerhouse with high AC and damage. But if caught with their pants down, they will die VERY quickly. You can't compare classes like that, because they each have different roles, strengths, weaknesses. If you bring up paladins and clerics full buffs, then every other class is crap compared to that.
I mean, pretty much nothing can beat a paladin or a cleric when they are full buff. That's the point of their class. If they have time to buff, they are huge powerhouse with high AC and damage. But if caught with their pants down, they will die VERY quickly. You can't compare classes like that, because they each have different roles, strengths, weaknesses. If you bring up paladins and clerics full buffs, then every other class is crap compared to that.
You are kind of helping the point.
Thing is we are comparing a melee class to other melee classes and you concede it is inferior. There is nothing a monk does better than anyone except run away and pvp wizards at high levels apparently.
They lack value because they bring nothing to the party someone else can't do much better.
I mean, pretty much nothing can beat a paladin or a cleric when they are full buff. That's the point of their class. If they have time to buff, they are huge powerhouse with high AC and damage. But if caught with their pants down, they will die VERY quickly. You can't compare classes like that, because they each have different roles, strengths, weaknesses. If you bring up paladins and clerics full buffs, then every other class is crap compared to that.
You are kind of helping the point.
Thing is we are comparing a melee class to other melee classes and you concede it is inferior. There is nothing a monk does better than anyone except run away and pvp wizards at high levels apparently.
They lack value because they bring nothing to the party someone else can't do much better.
How am I helping your point? You're comparing apples and oranges together. It's pretty much as if you watch a sorcerer/wizard fight a cleric or druid in a spell battle. Of course the wizard/sorcerer will win, it's WHAT THEY ARE GOOD AT. Same for the cleric/paladin in a full buff battle. Monks have other advantages, but you simply seem not to be able to see them, and focuses on things monks aren't the best at. They can't be good at everything.
The solution to this would be pathetically simple. Just give them something that knocks their AB up a few points. Make Ki Fist be an EB instead of a counts-as EB. Give them access to a version of Greater Weapon Focus. Monastic Training: +2 to hit with unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
I can think of 2 monks, one of which I play. What is your definition of novelty? Why do you suppose no one plays them?
There are a lot of Paladins, but fair point on Druids. I think though that Druids are also so inferior to clerics they lose the race.QuoteI can think of 2 monks, one of which I play. What is your definition of novelty? Why do you suppose no one plays them?
Monks suffer from the same thing that Paladins and Druids suffer from; they're weird and difficult for people to roleplay, so even though mechanically they're great they don't appeal to many people. Monks can be very powerful on PotM.
There are a lot of Paladins, but fair point on Druids. I think though that Druids are also so inferior to clerics they lose the race.QuoteI can think of 2 monks, one of which I play. What is your definition of novelty? Why do you suppose no one plays them?
Monks suffer from the same thing that Paladins and Druids suffer from; they're weird and difficult for people to roleplay, so even though mechanically they're great they don't appeal to many people. Monks can be very powerful on PotM.
People tend to favour strong classes.
I have yet to see a single monk roleplayed as a monk and instead they are all just brawlers. This isnt isolated to this server, I dont think I've ever met a monk on any server who actually RPed a MONK. I wouldn't bother making any more changes to the class personally. I do not mean to offend any monk players here but I also will not blow smoke up your butts either. I just find Monks to be a cheese class that hurts my immersion more than helps it every time I see one. Maybe someday I'll meet a convincing monk but after about 10+ years on and off of NWN, I still have not met one.
Yeah, well, another indication of what monks must contend with, in part because of being a small minority class. Imagine if someone referred to all paladin RP as cheese and that no paladin ever RPs being a paladin.
Though not to offend any of you who play paladins.
There are a lot of Paladins, but fair point on Druids. I think though that Druids are also so inferior to clerics they lose the race.QuoteI can think of 2 monks, one of which I play. What is your definition of novelty? Why do you suppose no one plays them?
Monks suffer from the same thing that Paladins and Druids suffer from; they're weird and difficult for people to roleplay, so even though mechanically they're great they don't appeal to many people. Monks can be very powerful on PotM.
People tend to favour strong classes.
With the focus on more and more power that seems to be the neverending focus of the playerbase of what is supposed to be a rp focused server, I think this statement is symptomatic of the problem at hand on the server as a whole. We're supposed to be a server to explore concepts and characters that appeal to us, not what the strongest build is. Threads like this make me think we are losing sight of that.
There are a lot of Paladins, but fair point on Druids. I think though that Druids are also so inferior to clerics they lose the race.QuoteI can think of 2 monks, one of which I play. What is your definition of novelty? Why do you suppose no one plays them?
Monks suffer from the same thing that Paladins and Druids suffer from; they're weird and difficult for people to roleplay, so even though mechanically they're great they don't appeal to many people. Monks can be very powerful on PotM.
People tend to favour strong classes.
With the focus on more and more power that seems to be the neverending focus of the playerbase of what is supposed to be a rp focused server, I think this statement is symptomatic of the problem at hand on the server as a whole. We're supposed to be a server to explore concepts and characters that appeal to us, not what the strongest build is. Threads like this make me think we are losing sight of that.
Paladin Builds - Comprehensive Guide and Advice
Now, this won't be a discussion about the roleplay and the limitations and difficulties of playing a Lawful Good paladin – that's for another topic! This is for the building of such a beast, from the ground up.
I haven't met many people that don't roleplay their paladin and their respective duties to their deity. However, when it comes to the monks I've seen, very few of them seem to even grasp the essence of the monk.