Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: EO on May 06, 2018, 04:59:57 PM

Title: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: EO on May 06, 2018, 04:59:57 PM
With the upcoming migration to EE, a few more changes have been made to classes/balance/items/etc. I've outlined them here in no particular order:

Familiars
The following fixes have been implemented to various vanilla summons/familiars/companions based on notes on the NwN Wiki page:
Spoiler: show
Celestial Avenger: replaced Weapon Specialization (Greatsword) with Weapon Specialization (Longsword) since it uses a longsword

Ghast: Removed Henchman/animal companion conversation

Green Slaad: Changed alignment to CN

Imp: Changed alignment from CG to LE (!)

Lantern Archon: Fixed "This creature is likely bugged in that it has no special defenses, yet BioWare did define an item named "Summoned Lantern Archon Properties". The intended defenses of this creature appear to 20/+1 damage reduction, 100% immunity to electrical damage, immunity to paralysis, a +4 bonus to saving throws versus poison, and permanent haste."

Red Slaad: Changed alignment to CN
-Fixed issues with skills

Shadow: Fixed issues with Incorporealness/Shadow attacks

Dire Wolf (animal companion): As per notes here: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Dire_wolf_(animal_companion)

Giant Spider: As per notes here: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Giant_spider_(animal_companion)

Wolf: As per notes here: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Wolf_(animal_companion)

Pixie: -Fixed level 17 version as per notes here: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Pixie_(familiar)

Imp: As per notes here: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Imp_(familiar)

Hell Hound: As per notes here: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Hell_hound_(familiar)

Faerie Dragon: As per notes here: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Faerie_dragon_(familiar)

Gremishka: Corrected typos in description, removed extra AC since they now properly get their AC from size modifier


Rogue:
-Gave rogues proficiency with the Spear and Sickle since those were missing from their proficiency.

Paladin/Druid/Cleric
-Added mechanisms to disable all class abilities/spellcasting if the character either loses the proper alignment (Paladin/Druid) or has fallen from grace from their deity (Cleric)

People's Champion
-Slightly revised description to open it up to all organized religions, not just Ezra/Lawgiver.

Ranger
-Further brought them in line with 3.5E PnP with the following changes:
-Hit Dice changed from d10 to d8
-Number of skills per level changed from 4 to 6 (6*4 at creation)
-Dual-Wield moved from level 1 to level 2 and Improved Two Weapon Fighting moved from level 9 to level 6
-Removed Medium Armor Proficiency

Halan Witch
-Added new prestige class (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=47451.msg598112#msg598112).

Shadowdancer
-Updated the Summon Shadow ability:Dwarven Defender
-Moved Uncanny Dodge II from level 4 to 6, thus replacing their current Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Cleric
-Fixed minor issue with Sun domain power (the bonus to the Turning Check was reversed with the bonus to Turn HD; as per the notes in the NwN Wiki (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_domain))
-Added Weave domain.
Spoiler: show
Quote
Weave Domain
Clerics who take the Weave domain are able to pierce the mysteries of the Weave.
Domain Special Ability and Bonus Spells
Spell Penetration: The cleric gains a +2 bonus to caster level checks to beat a creature's spell resistance.
The cleric gains access to the following spells at the specified spell level: Spell Resistance (4), Premonition (8).


Barbarian
-Added Literacy feat
-Updated Mystic Rage to cap at 28 SR (32 with Channeled Rage)

Bard
-Number of skills per level changed from 4 to 6 (6*4 at creation)
-Bard Song (and variants) now a standard action
-Removed Medium Armor Proficiency

Dragon Disciple
-Changed their racial type at level 10 to Dragon as per PnP

Monk
-Changed their racial type at level 20 to outsider as per PnP

Spells:
-Changed Shelgarn's/Mord's Sword and Black Blade of Disaster to Evocation as per PnP.

Feats:
-Added the following feats (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=48278.0).
-Moved Disarm/Knockdown to level 1 so they are granted at character creation
-Uncanny Dodge II (as per EE) now grants immunity to flanking and thus sneak attack from flanking except from rogues four levels higher than the character. This is hardcoded with EE.

Flintlocks/Muskets
-Removed -4 AB penalty.
-Changed from 19-20 x3 to 20 x 3 critical hit range.

Pick Pocket
-Changed to Sleight of Hand as per here (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=48504.msg599600#new).
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: ViktorYouFool on May 06, 2018, 05:37:35 PM
Ranger
-Further brought them in line with 3.5E PnP with the following changes:
-Hit Dice changed from d10 to d8
-Number of skills per level changed from 4 to 6 (6*4 at creation)
-Two Weapon Fighting moved from level 1 to level 2 and Improved Two Weapon Fighting moved from level 9 to level 6
-Removed Medium Armor Proficiency

This makes me so happy. 3e Rangers don't have enough skill points to do all the stuff you really want rangers to do, and that seems more than a fair exchange for the hit die shift. Two things give me pause, however:
1) It'd be nice if we implemented the Combat Style choices from 3.5, letting the ranger choose between getting TWF/ITWF and getting Point Blank/Rapid Shot. Even better if this was expanded for our system to allow for Point Blank/Rapid Reload and a pair of free feats if someone goes firearms.

2) Losing Medium Armor Proficiency will make things harder for non-dex rangers. Even now Strength-based rangers have to choose between sinking enough into dex to wear their medium armor without a big loss or just giving in and buying heavy armor proficiency. Even before, choosing to go strength ranger meant losing one of the benefits of your class features (not a lot of strength-weapons lend themselves to dual-wielding, save the double-sided family). Now that will have an extra one or two feat tax.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: EO on May 06, 2018, 05:42:57 PM
Quote
1) It'd be nice if we implemented the Combat Style choices from 3.5, letting the ranger choose between getting TWF/ITWF and getting Point Blank/Rapid Shot. Even better if this was expanded for our system to allow for Point Blank/Rapid Reload and a pair of free feats if someone goes firearms.

Not a bad idea but not something that will make it this time around since we're wrapping things up. I'll consider it for a future hak update though.

Quote
2) Losing Medium Armor Proficiency will make things harder for non-dex rangers. Even now Strength-based rangers have to choose between sinking enough into dex to wear their medium armor without a big loss or just giving in and buying heavy armor proficiency. Even before, choosing to go strength ranger meant losing one of the benefits of your class features (not a lot of strength-weapons lend themselves to dual-wielding, save the double-sided family). Now that will have an extra one or two feat tax.

I think the point of the 3.5 ranger is that it's really a Dex-oriented build more than Str.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: ViktorYouFool on May 06, 2018, 05:47:18 PM
Quote
2) Losing Medium Armor Proficiency will make things harder for non-dex rangers. Even now Strength-based rangers have to choose between sinking enough into dex to wear their medium armor without a big loss or just giving in and buying heavy armor proficiency. Even before, choosing to go strength ranger meant losing one of the benefits of your class features (not a lot of strength-weapons lend themselves to dual-wielding, save the double-sided family). Now that will have an extra one or two feat tax.

I think the point of the 3.5 ranger is that it's really a Dex-oriented build more than Str.
Definitely true, though the team has done so much work to make different builds viable for different classes (Cha feats for fighters?) that it's a shame to see certain options becoming less viable with the update, especially since taking that route already meant losing class features.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: Pav on May 06, 2018, 05:49:07 PM
Bards with 6 + int skillpoints as per 3.5 when? Rangers didn't really have a problem while Bards are always skill-tight.

Otherwise, cool changes all around.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: ViktorYouFool on May 06, 2018, 05:56:04 PM
Bards with 6 + int skillpoints as per 3.5 when? Rangers didn't really have a problem while Bards are always skill-tight.

Otherwise, cool changes all around.

Ranger has a ton of skills you really wanted if you're going for the actual woodsman concept. This is a really useful change for them. I will also agree that Bard skill point should go up as well, though I'm not as familiar with the changes in Bard between 3e and 3.5
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: Phantasia on May 06, 2018, 05:58:28 PM
Bards with 6 skill points + int please. If you have to retweak the bard song benefits to balance this out, I would be all for it still.

Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: Pav on May 06, 2018, 06:02:36 PM
Bards with 6 + int skillpoints as per 3.5 when? Rangers didn't really have a problem while Bards are always skill-tight.

Otherwise, cool changes all around.

Ranger has a ton of skills you really wanted if you're going for the actual woodsman concept. This is a really useful change for them. I will also agree that Bard skill point should go up as well, though I'm not as familiar with the changes in Bard between 3e and 3.5

Yes, I know, I played a Ranger to level 14. Incidentally, I had all of the relevant skills maxed out, barring concentration - which you don't really need.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: ASymphony on May 06, 2018, 06:13:14 PM
Since this means an entire subsection of the class becomes unplayable, is there anything planned on how to deal with that or will those who went with strength rangers have to shelf their PCs then?
For me basically the only option would be to abandon my old build entirely and rebuild for dex, which would mean having to entirely regear the PC which I can't say I look particularly forward to, especially since some things are rather a PITA to get presently.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: EO on May 06, 2018, 06:21:36 PM
Since this means an entire subsection of the class becomes unplayable, is there anything planned on how to deal with that or will those who went with strength rangers have to shelf their PCs then?
For me basically the only option would be to abandon my old build entirely and rebuild for dex, which would mean having to entirely regear the PC which I can't say I look particularly forward to, especially since some things are rather a PITA to get presently.

Let me get this straight. Having to take one feat makes the entire class unplayable? And no there are no plans to do that.

In the future please try to be constructive when presenting your pount. There is nothing to gain from posting like that.

Bards with 6 + int skillpoints as per 3.5 when? Rangers didn't really have a problem while Bards are always skill-tight.

Otherwise, cool changes all around.

Bards donít absolutely need them but Iíve been considering it and itís an easy change. As per 3.5, Iíll remove medium armor proficiency from bards and change to 6 ranks.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: ASymphony on May 06, 2018, 06:22:32 PM
No, but having the hit die dropped to a d8 does in my case, since it drops the HP of my character too low to be viable as a frontliner in melee. I would appreciate it if concerns were taken seriously and not simply dismissed out of hand just because you disagree with them.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: Pav on May 06, 2018, 06:27:29 PM
Since this means an entire subsection of the class becomes unplayable, is there anything planned on how to deal with that or will those who went with strength rangers have to shelf their PCs then?
For me basically the only option would be to abandon my old build entirely and rebuild for dex, which would mean having to entirely regear the PC which I can't say I look particularly forward to, especially since some things are rather a PITA to get presently.

Let me get this straight. Having to take one feat makes the entire class unplayable? And no there are no plans to do that.

In the future please try to be constructive when presenting your pount. There is nothing to gain from posting like that.

Agreed. My Strength Ranger was unoptimal and had 10 con and 12 dex, for which I had to take heavy armor proficiency. Even with Rogue splices, he was more than fitting for the front lines at Perfidus at level 13.

Bards with 6 + int skillpoints as per 3.5 when? Rangers didn't really have a problem while Bards are always skill-tight.

Otherwise, cool changes all around.

Bards donít absolutely need them but Iíve been considering it and itís an easy change. As per 3.5, Iíll remove medium armor proficiency from bards and change to 6 ranks.

For the record, I will say they need them absolutely more than Rangers do -- but this change is appreciated and welcomed. Thank you EO!
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: Philos on May 06, 2018, 06:35:43 PM
Quote
-Uncanny Dodge II (as per EE) now grants immunity to flanking and thus sneak attack from flanking except from rogues four levels higher than the character. This is hardcoded with EE.

Can we please rethink adding this or if that's not possible make it gated behind a deeper level investment? Becoming immune to flanking sneaks and the AB increase it provides as early as level 5 for barbs and 6 for rogue really leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Never mind the added difficulty this will add to NPCs with this feat (Ghastrian bandits for example), we keeping being promised improvements for rogue but making them increasingly less effective.

There's enough stuff that's immune to sneak attack on this server, I'd prefer to not extend this to players excluding ampc/npc and certain PRCs.

Edit: I was informed Potm Barbs actually get Uncanny Dodge 2 at lvl 3.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: Pav on May 06, 2018, 07:00:29 PM
Quote
-Uncanny Dodge II (as per EE) now grants immunity to flanking and thus sneak attack from flanking except from rogues four levels higher than the character. This is hardcoded with EE.

Can we please rethink adding this or if that's not possible make it gated behind a deeper level investment? Becoming immune to flanking sneaks and the AB increase it provides as early as level 5 for barbs and 6 for rogue really leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Never mind the added difficulty this will add to NPCs with this feat (Ghastrian bandits for example), we keeping being promised improvements for rogue but making them increasingly less effective.

There's enough stuff that's immune to sneak attack on this server, I'd prefer to not extend this to players excluding ampc/npc and certain PRCs.

I forgot to even touch on this -- this feat should likely be removed from our module, or removed from base classes.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: aprogressivist on May 06, 2018, 07:12:30 PM
Bards donít absolutely need them but Iíve been considering it and itís an easy change. As per 3.5, Iíll remove medium armor proficiency from bards and change to 6 ranks.

Please also re-balance Bard Song and Curse Song then, as Sword said; they're way, way too strong in their current incarnation for a class that's going to have almost all the best Skills in-class and now enough skill points to purchase them without needing to make tough choices and compromise.

You could drop the Skill bonus/penalty to +2/-2 (as per Inspire Competence) in PnP, cap the AC change at +4/-4 (as per Inspire Greatness), drop the temp HD/damage to 2d10 or 3d10 (also Inspire Greatness) -- and that would still be way, way stronger than PnP, since in PnP it requires a standard action, you can only do one effect at the time, and the bard can't cast while singing.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: Daboomer on May 06, 2018, 07:15:15 PM
I still Think it's not completely invalid to maybe look with soft Eyes on a rebuild for rangers feeling they have to Little hp after the change, i suppose i'm personally affected as well though i do not really feel as if i would be in a particularly bad situation from this change either.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: EO on May 06, 2018, 07:29:36 PM
I still Think it's not completely invalid to maybe look with soft Eyes on a rebuild for rangers feeling they have to Little hp after the change, i suppose i'm personally affected as well though i do not really feel as if i would be in a particularly bad situation from this change either.

Rangers (those who started as rangers) will need a remake anyway at least to deal with level 1 stuff. After that itís a matter of submitting an app. DMs have been fairly ok with people remaking based on class changes in the past.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: EO on May 06, 2018, 07:46:20 PM
Bards with 6 skill points + int please. If you have to retweak the bard song benefits to balance this out, I would be all for it still.

I wonít rebalance bard song any further at this point though Iíll fix our version to require a standard action. Itís something that was fixed on base NwN along the way after we launched but was missed here because it wasnít noticed. Since bards became viable here over time itís not a bad idea to fix that glitch.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: StellarNope on May 07, 2018, 12:15:02 AM
With the loss of medium armor proficiency will bards get their pen and paper ability to cast spells in light armor with no arcane spell failure to make up for the loss?

And I doubt they've unlocked that part of things yet, but has the EE made chain shirts into light armor rather than medium armor as NWN erroneously had it?
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: ViktorYouFool on May 07, 2018, 02:02:56 PM
has the EE made chain shirts into light armor rather than medium armor as NWN erroneously had it?

That would actually make the rangers-losing-medium-armor issue a lot less of a pain.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: ethinos on May 07, 2018, 02:09:18 PM
Well, Hide Armor is supposed to be Medium armor, so you'd be swapping one for the other in the end, which I guess would be fine. However, yes, I really hope bards can cast spells in light armor! This is a very annoying bug in the current iteration of NWN.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: EO on May 07, 2018, 05:01:34 PM
Well, Hide Armor is supposed to be Medium armor, so you'd be swapping one for the other in the end, which I guess would be fine. However, yes, I really hope bards can cast spells in light armor! This is a very annoying bug in the current iteration of NWN.

Thatís not a NwN bug. The light armor casting thing is 3.5. NwN is 3E and was released before 3.5. And itís hardcoded. There are some wonky workarounds but theyíre messy.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: aprogressivist on May 07, 2018, 05:23:55 PM
Thatís not a NwN bug. The light armor casting thing is 3.5. NwN is 3E and was released before 3.5. And itís hardcoded. There are some wonky workarounds but theyíre messy.

Will that remain true of EE?
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: EO on May 07, 2018, 06:04:54 PM
Thatís not a NwN bug. The light armor casting thing is 3.5. NwN is 3E and was released before 3.5. And itís hardcoded. There are some wonky workarounds but theyíre messy.

Will that remain true of EE?

EE remains 3E. Will they unhardcode that? Who knows.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: Arcibel on May 08, 2018, 11:49:02 AM
"-Uncanny Dodge II (as per EE) now grants immunity to flanking and thus sneak attack from flanking except from rogues four levels higher than the character. This is hardcoded with EE".

Is it posible from EE choose this feat as class or general feat? because now is very powerful, for example, the barbarian gets a great improvement with this feat.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: yhposolihP on May 08, 2018, 02:27:57 PM
"-Uncanny Dodge II (as per EE) now grants immunity to flanking and thus sneak attack from flanking except from rogues four levels higher than the character. This is hardcoded with EE".

Is it posible from EE choose this feat as class or general feat? because now is very powerful, for example, the barbarian gets a great improvement with this feat.

I haven't heard anything anywhere that makes the claim about the UD tree getting opened up (I doubt it will be, but you never know), but this is more of a bug fix than a decided buff. It had always been the intended effect of UDII to have that flanking immunity. It just never worked. Never officially fixed in a patch until EE. It's now more accurate to the PnP equivalent.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#improvedUncannyDodge
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: Mayvind on May 08, 2018, 03:26:35 PM
*Dance around happily with his awesome Barbarian*
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: ViktorYouFool on May 09, 2018, 03:46:57 AM
Ranger
-Further brought them in line with 3.5E PnP with the following changes:
-Hit Dice changed from d10 to d8
-Number of skills per level changed from 4 to 6 (6*4 at creation)
-Two Weapon Fighting moved from level 1 to level 2 and Improved Two Weapon Fighting moved from level 9 to level 6
-Removed Medium Armor Proficiency

On second thought, the underlined section makes me pause.

Rangers didn't have Two Weapon Fighting, they had a unique feat called Dual-Wield, granting them Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting. Have they lost access to Dual Wield, or has it simply been moved to level 2 and the wording was imprecise?
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: ViktorYouFool on May 20, 2018, 10:46:18 PM
-Uncanny Dodge II (as per EE) now grants immunity to flanking and thus sneak attack from flanking except from rogues four levels higher than the character. This is hardcoded with EE.

Do we know if:

A) It is counting total character level, or class level of the class that granted it?
and
B) It is referring to sneak attacks from someone with rogue levels that is four levels in total character levels higher, or someone with four more rogue levels than the UMDII character? Or with four rogue levels higher than the UMDII character's class that granted UMDII?

I assume its probably "character level" in both cases, but it's worth inquiring.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: EO on May 20, 2018, 10:46:44 PM
Updated with the following changes:
-Monks' racial type will become Outsider at level 20
-Dragon Disciples' racial type will become Dragon at level 10
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: EO on May 20, 2018, 10:47:59 PM
Do we know if:

A) It is counting total character level, or class level of the class that granted it?
and
B) It is referring to sneak attacks from someone with rogue levels that is four levels in total character levels higher, or someone with four more rogue levels than the UMDII character? Or with four rogue levels higher than the UMDII character's class that granted UMDII?

I assume its probably "character level" in both cases, but it's worth inquiring.

Not entirely sure; the Beamdog release notes were fairly vague. I would encourage you to test in-game with two other players.

Quote
On second thought, the underlined section makes me pause.

Rangers didn't have Two Weapon Fighting, they had a unique feat called Dual-Wield, granting them Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting. Have they lost access to Dual Wield, or has it simply been moved to level 2 and the wording was imprecise?

Yeah, it's Dual-Wield.
Title: Re: List of upcoming changes/fixes - EE
Post by: EO on May 21, 2018, 09:35:12 AM
-Updated original post with updates to the Shadowdancer's Summon Shadow (fixing a few things, bringing them more in line with PnP)
-Added a cap to Mystic Rage's Spell Resistance bonus (28 SR or 32 with Channeled Rage)