Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Pav on April 29, 2018, 03:43:17 AM

Title: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Pav on April 29, 2018, 03:43:17 AM
Hello,

At current, the Shadowdancer Prestige Class as mechanically envisioned in PotM is more or less uninspiring. It requires two generally pointless feats for any Dexterity-based characters (Dodge and Mobility), and only offers one element of benefit at its first level, that being Hide in Plain Sight. Thus, due to Multiclassing rules, no one will take more than five levels in this Prestige class, with the realization that mechanically, those are best saved for last. In light of recent listings of upcoming updates, I have decided to take a good, measured look at this class and decided on what could be done toward its benefit.

First of all, it was this feat that inspired me to write this:

Shrouded Dance
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Hide 12 ranks, Perform 5 ranks.
Benefit: The character can seem to be where he isn't. Once per day, as a free action, he can attempt a DC 30 Hide check. If he succeeds, the character gains 50% concealment for one round and instantly hides in plain sight as if he had the feat.
Use: Selected.


Now, what are the implications of a feat like that being in play, even with increased requirements and DCs? The answer is that Shadowdancer have now lost their only mechanical appeal. If you are a talented player, you generally do not need the Hide in Plain Sight ability to begin with - corner sneaking will suit just fine for the same purpose, or a bottled black. However, when someone does need Hide in Plain Sight, they also generally will only need a single use of the ability to turn the tables entirely around on an encounter, or give them the opportunity to escape and retaliate at a later point, be it PvE or PvP. This is why Shadowdancers were good, despite not having much use past five levels. They are a class of exceptional roleplay potential, but are, however, one trick ponies. Their Shadow is pointless, as are the rest of their abilities, plain and simple.

This ability will now be open to every class that can stealth. Even Rangers may reach the Perform requirement with a Rogue dip, or just a cross-class with the current numbers if they really wished the ability earlier than 17 and to be used somewhere other than wilderness. This essentially nullifies a Shadowdancer's existence, and I am very open to debating this point if anyone should wish to.

However, my suggestions, I feel, would make the class more appealing to take for more levels than just five, and they are simple in concept (if not in implementation).


Now for some explanations. For the first point, I feel as if the Shadowdancer roleplay has... very little to do, necessarily, with the afforded quick reflexes. Theirs is an art, a type of sleight of hand and attunement with the plane of Shadow - they are called dancers for a reason, hence the perform requirement and now, Skill Focus: Perform. In addition, fighting in darkness, in shade, against their very element, should be as if second nature, hence, Blind Fight.

The Sneak Attack progression is probably the main reason for why the class is uninspiring in combat. They lose 3d6 of sneak attacks if you take 5 levels. That is a huge margin of damage simply lost. Now, some might argue that it is compensated by the fact that, hey, they can disappear from sight once a round - but they do not always need that. They are weaker in PvE and rely on spamming HiPS to get any damage off in PvP encounters. Thus, if a character takes 9 levels in the class (though with these changes, they'd really want to take 10), they will be at least returned 3d6 out of 5d6 damage lost, rather than none at all. Monks, Rangers, and Bards, as opposed to Rogues, gain plenty of damage modifiers and thus it may be a possibility to make this progression be only if the character has at least 3 Rogue levels, if mechanically possible to implement.

Next, the Shadowlord. For this point and the next, I have taken very obvious inspirations from a different NWN server, which I think gave this class a wonderful treatment. Although their version is much stronger, this version is still a valid companion and RP tool, able to soak some hits in order to allow the Shadowdancer to escape encounters it can't stealth out of in PvE, or, if we feel like adding a command for the Shadowdancer to speak through it, become an exceptionally desirable ability to have for roleplay effects.

Moving Hide in Plain Sight to level 5, I think, is an obvious choice. Player characters already take a minimum of five levels in this class, and giving it to PCs at around level 8 or lower (character) feels a bit cheap to me, especially as it is mostly spammable.

I think that does it for my feedback. If I missed something, please point it out. If you would like to leave suggestions, remarks, critiques, please do so as well.

Thank you for reading.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: haifisch021 on April 29, 2018, 08:12:36 AM
+1 Pav
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Dread on April 29, 2018, 08:21:24 AM
Removed some posts from people who should know better than to be impolite here! Please be civil, and please be on topic.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Nemesis 24 on April 29, 2018, 08:32:23 AM
On a more serious note...!

I'm inclined to agree with Pav here.  While mechanical power may in fact not be the point of PRC's but more to do with character development, this still seems like a rather drastic change, for not only rendering the Shadow Dancer unnecessary or obsolete, but also enormously empowering the rogue class.  While I agree that rogues 'do' need a buff, there is a lack of counter to this that cannot be overlooked, almost entirely for the reasons that Pav has listed.

I tend to trust Pav's opinion on mechanics.  While I might argue with some of the changes he's suggested, I cannot argue with his reasoning behind it.  This is a gigantic boost, the main strength of a class that is incredibly hard to get, and its very, very easily available on a server that doesn't have any automatic counters to stealth.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Philos on April 29, 2018, 09:31:18 AM
I'll make a few comments.

 I think you have the right idea shifting HiPS deeper in SD levels but I feel 5 is a little to far. Consider having it be at 3rd level.

Axing mobility is a good idea. That feat is useless.I disagree with dodge however. Stacking AC is always useful. SF: Perform is a good idea.

The proposed sneak attack progression is fair. It's not really a SDs focus but it'll be helpful.

I like the idea of a shadowlord feat although I think it should function in reverse. Rather than your Shadow mimicking you, I feel as though with level progression in Shadow Dancer you should become more shadow like. At 10th level, much like how RDD's change with their levels, I think the Shadow Dancer should appear as a shadow. With this comes a global OCR increase as well as several benefits. Damage reduction versus physical and negative types as well as vulnerability versus positive energy. This is a theme of both the class and the server atmosphere of corruption.

Consider giving the Shadow Dancer once per rest spell like abilities various spells with a shadow theme. Darkness, damning Darkness, Shadow binding, cone of dimness, Shadow Shield, the shades line of spells etc. I'm not sure which should be included or how often they able to be cast but I do think it's worthy of discussion.

Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: PrimetheGrime on April 29, 2018, 11:10:04 AM
I like the ideas posed for sure. Certainly makes the SD sound less like a glorified shadow rogue
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: NWN_lovableweremink on April 29, 2018, 11:11:31 AM
I like the ideas, especially the becoming more shadow/shade like. I also think that the SD should get the monster ability darkness at some point.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Pav on April 29, 2018, 05:55:54 PM
I think you have the right idea shifting HiPS deeper in SD levels but I feel 5 is a little to far. Consider having it be at 3rd level.

I think it is too early. I wrote my reasoning down, but if you can expand upon why you think it's better on third we could discuss.

Axing mobility is a good idea. That feat is useless.I disagree with dodge however. Stacking AC is always useful. SF: Perform is a good idea.

The problem with Dodge is that it simply does not work in fights where there is more than one person. It is a good duelling feat, but it has nothing to do with the Shadowdancer class and offers it very little benefit.

Spoiler: Explanation • show
It is bugged, in a sense. You may recreate its problems by yourself by doing like so:

Get 3 fresh level 2s. One with Dodge and 13 Dex. Strip him of armor/shield/AC effects. The other two should have equal AB, whether with Strength or Dexterity, it doesn't matter.

Continue to have one person attack the Dodge-r until he scores a hit. Did he mark it at 12? Great, Dodge works. Proceed then to have the two attack the Dodge-r, and notice how the hit will be scored on an 11 rather than the 12.


I like the idea of a shadowlord feat although I think it should function in reverse. Rather than your Shadow mimicking you, I feel as though with level progression in Shadow Dancer you should become more shadow like. At 10th level, much like how RDD's change with their levels, I think the Shadow Dancer should appear as a shadow. With this comes a global OCR increase as well as several benefits. Damage reduction versus physical and negative types as well as vulnerability versus positive energy. This is a theme of both the class and the server atmosphere of corruption.

Agreed. Let's consider something like this:

Shadowlord
Spoiler:  • show
The Shadowdancer begins emulating his own Shadow. Losing the Summon Shadow ability and the Shadow Evade ability, the character now becomes it instead, gaining +5 bonus to natural armor, 10 / +3 damage reduction, Immunity to instant death effects, Immunity to Necromancy spells, Immunity to negative energy damage, as per the Shadow Shield spell (They also gain the spell's VFX, permanently). In addition, their unarmed strikes receive a 2 strength drain on-hit property, with a DC of 10 + Shadowdancer Level / 2 + Dexterity modifier (a far weaker version of Crippling Strike, only for your fists).

However, the Shadowdancer also gains a 25% vulnerability to positive energy damage, and a permanent, high OCR bump. The ability may be activated once per rest, to gain +5/+5 hide/move silently, and 50% concealment.


It might be a bit too powerful, but 10 levels of investment make it so you are much, much weaker on other fronts.

Consider giving the Shadow Dancer once per rest spell like abilities various spells with a shadow theme. Darkness, damning Darkness, Shadow binding, cone of dimness, Shadow Shield, the shades line of spells etc. I'm not sure which should be included or how often they able to be cast but I do think it's worthy of discussion.

With the above ability, and all the special Rogue feats they already gain on PotM, I feel as if this would be unnecessary.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Philos on April 29, 2018, 07:01:06 PM
HiPS Level
The reason I proposed 3 instead of 5 is that it already has taken you quite a while to find a mentor, go through the training rp, app and approval process and gain 3 levels in SD. That's a more than a couple months to get to the meat of the class so to speak from the time your start pursuing SD. With each level taking longer than the last your gonna be in the teens before you concept even starts to come together. Assuming you're able to start training at 8-9 (which is the earliest you can take a level SD due to skill point requirements), going to 13-14 is too far off imo. I like pushing the core mechanic of the class a little deeper in but 5 feel like it would just be too painful.

Dodge
I'll take a look at the dodge feat.

Shadow Lord

I wasn't thinking of as a spell like ability at first, but I like the idea. I had thought of a permanent status upon taking 10 SD kind of like how RDD's change form the more levels they take. Lets look at ideas and numbers for both cases.

As an activateable ability:
Quote
5 bonus to natural armor, 10 / +3 damage reduction, Immunity to instant death effects, Immunity to Necromancy spells, Immunity to negative energy damage, as per the Shadow Shield spell

I really like this portion of the idea. I'd give it a description of "Once per day a Shadow Dancer is able to draw power from the plane of shadows to protect themselves. They gain benefits as if they had cast Shadow Shield". Shadow Shield as a spell like ability makes sense for shadow dancers. It's the easiest to implement too. I recommend it be cast at (10) which gives you 1 hour of use but won't edge out mages who can cast the spell themselves.

Quote
their unarmed strikes receive a 2 strength drain on-hit property, with a DC of 10 + Shadowdancer Level / 2 + Dexterity modifier
I'm not opposed to this, I just want to separate it from the above feat. I'd rather it offered at say level 7-8 with an improved chance to hit but limited uses per day. DC is 10 + full SD levels + dex with uses per day equal to SD levels.

Quote
The ability may be activated once per rest, to gain +5/+5 hide/move silently, and 50% concealment.
I disagree with this one. That's far too much of a steroid on what was proposed already.

Shadow lord as achieving 10 SD:
I'd propose some of the same candy as above but with tweeked numbers. 5/+3 DR, 2 natural AC, 50% negative damage immunity as you are not a full creature of negative plane. Bonus saves vs. necromancy and saves vs. death (i'm up for suggestions about numbers.) 25% Positive energy vulnerability. Permanate SS vfx and a large OCR bump.

Shadow Themed Spells and "Rogue Feats"
I'd really like to hit home the notion of this class as being not just "The Stealth PRC Class". Giving them access to some of the shadow/darkness themed spells seems like a reasonable to do this. I don't think the rogue feats offered to SDs are all that great tbh and I don't see how shadow themed spells would interfere. Our topic is improving the lack luster mechanical nature of SDs. I don't think access to some of these spells will make them over powered, even with their rogue feats.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: swizzlesaurus on April 29, 2018, 11:04:39 PM
  • Remove Dodge and Mobility as requirements, add Blind Fight and Skill Focus: Perform.
  • Give Shadowdancers sneak attack progression at levels 1, 5, and 9.
  • At level 10, the Shadowdancer will gain access to the Shadowlord feat:
    Copies the Shadowdancer's appearance, description, name and weapons (if any) to the Summoned Shadow. The Shadow gains its attached person's ability scores, saves, HP, etc, however it deals no damage. In addition, the Shadow will have its DR increased to 15/+3, and added a regeneration of +3 / round. The Shadow retains its pre-existing immunities and vulnerabilities.
  • Shift Hide in Plain Sight to level 5 Shadowdancer.

These changes, or any variation of these changes would make playing a SD many times less painful. At the moment my character (Who is sitting at level 15 with 5 Levels in the class) is a lot of times upsetting to play. In any situation I am worse then a pure rogue at doing rogue things (I.E. Skill related things) and worse in combat then a Ranger of similar level to her (The ranger also gets HiPS at only 2 levels higher then her). The hook or gimmick of taking the class feels cheap now due to the fact that any class with hide as a class skill will be able to do EXACTLY what my SD can do but do it better in every way. I've gotten very discouraged with exploring the shadowy side of the SD RP since I realized that any person who wants to put as much time into a Ranger character as I did with my SD can do anything my character can and more. There's just no feeling of "Hey I'm not like everyone else" anymore. I'm sure there is going to be someone out there who will think "Arent you supposed to take a PrC for the RP?" and they would be right. I absolutely loved exploring the shadow plane whether through DM set up situations or my own RP, but theres just something upsetting and very discouraging to me about being mechanically worse then any other class. This class needs to be looked at (Thats coming from someone who has been playing it consistently for the past 11 months) Its very much not up to snuff and gets bodied by any other class.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Pav on April 30, 2018, 01:10:06 AM
Shadow Lord

I wasn't thinking of as a spell like ability at first, but I like the idea. I had thought of a permanent status upon taking 10 SD kind of like how RDD's change form the more levels they take. Lets look at ideas and numbers for both cases.

As an activateable ability:
Quote
5 bonus to natural armor, 10 / +3 damage reduction, Immunity to instant death effects, Immunity to Necromancy spells, Immunity to negative energy damage, as per the Shadow Shield spell

I really like this portion of the idea. I'd give it a description of "Once per day a Shadow Dancer is able to draw power from the plane of shadows to protect themselves. They gain benefits as if they had cast Shadow Shield". Shadow Shield as a spell like ability makes sense for shadow dancers. It's the easiest to implement too. I recommend it be cast at (10) which gives you 1 hour of use but won't edge out mages who can cast the spell themselves.

Shadow Themed Spells and "Rogue Feats"
I'd really like to hit home the notion of this class as being not just "The Stealth PRC Class". Giving them access to some of the shadow/darkness themed spells seems like a reasonable to do this. I don't think the rogue feats offered to SDs are all that great tbh and I don't see how shadow themed spells would interfere. Our topic is improving the lack luster mechanical nature of SDs. I don't think access to some of these spells will make them over powered, even with their rogue feats.

I did not mean that Shadowlord will be an activatable ability, but rather a permanent Shadow Shield with some maluses - perhaps more on top of the ones I mentioned. The number tweaking seems fine.

As for Shadow themed spells, I would have to strongly disagree on this because that is not what a Shadowdancer does. He is not a magician, nor does he draw upon any form of magic, but rather upon supernatural abilities and a supernatural link to another plane of existence.

Everything else I can agree with and concede, although my arguments remain standing - simply a difference in opinion rather than a mechanical imbalance.

Otherwise, it's good to hear everyone's opinions and thoughts, especially you, Swizz.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Syl on May 05, 2018, 11:26:50 PM
I haven't said anything for a while and i'm sure no one noticed..

But i would like to chime in and state i love my shadow dancer, They are very fun RP class

THat said, I do not agree at all with this new feat that was added allowing ANYONE to be a shadow dancer and truely believe this feat should never have been mentioned, brought up, or even created and should be removed. It is unfair to those that have to go through the PRC and APP to gain the class to have HIPS which is no longer that broken and cannot be spammed. But now you threw away the magic of the class by adding in this feat and allowing those with a absurdly high Hide and MS to practically get a free HIPS when they have no training in the art!

it is a cheap feat that doesn't seem to take into consideration of the SD class. if you want to vanish in front of people, then get a wizard... or a invisibility potion.. or better yet Put in the app for SD
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Philos on May 06, 2018, 12:54:07 AM
Not to be dismissive, but disscussion for the Shrouded Dance feat should go here: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=48278.msg597343#msg597343

As a person with a SD character, are there any changes you'd like to see to the class or improvements you see that could be made?
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Syl on May 06, 2018, 01:04:49 AM
Couldn't find that thread. Thanks!
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Morning woods on May 06, 2018, 06:02:53 PM
A bump to this thread so it doesn't get forgotten. Let me reiterate that this class very dearly needs help to be even competitive with other prestige classes (Especially the new ones) and to give it back its magic feel. As of now it there is nothing special about this class. It is not prestigious at all anymore. I would go as far as to say there isn't a reason to take this class over any other class to do the exact same thing. If anyone from dev team wants to weigh in that would be amazing.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Pav on May 19, 2018, 03:10:50 PM
Shameless bump.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Syl on May 22, 2018, 02:16:25 PM
After giving it some thought.. and don't know if it was brought up but if shadow dancers got either a increase to their stealth skill. It can be 1 point too both hide and move silently, per level and maybe level ten you get 2 points each.. maybe add in self concealment at higher levels?

I love the class and it's great fir infiltrating but it is underloved. Maybe make the shadow summon stronger. You already have it marked as a familiar sui it can stay out. But it useless due to it what's staying level 1 or 3..

And it should grow as you deepen your connection..
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: zDark Shadowz on August 21, 2018, 01:21:04 AM
If Shadowdancer benefitted bards a bit such as spell progression as an optional way to go I think it could be neat.

Bardic Shadowdancers can use their magic to shroud in darkness and invisibility, make use of both HiPS and Shrouded Dance, use their bard song to empower their skills by +2, cast displacement and do all sorts of other shadowdancer-themed things.

Shadow Shield as a lvl 10 Shadowdancer ability once a day seems fair as well given the other levels they could've taken instead.

Also Dodge and Mobility are good feats for anyone. That Mobility +4 AC doesn't count toward the 20 Dodge AC limit and can be used to avoid being hit while casting spells (outside of Defensive Casting) or drinking potions. Niche, but still useful for anyone that needs to do those things mid-combat
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Pav on August 21, 2018, 01:35:16 AM
If Shadowdancer benefitted bards a bit such as spell progression as an optional way to go I think it could be neat.

Bardic Shadowdancers can use their magic to shroud in darkness and invisibility, make use of both HiPS and Shrouded Dance, use their bard song to empower their skills by +2, cast displacement and do all sorts of other shadowdancer-themed things.

Shadow Shield as a lvl 10 Shadowdancer ability once a day seems fair as well given the other levels they could've taken instead.

Also Dodge and Mobility are good feats for anyone. That Mobility +4 AC doesn't count toward the 20 Dodge AC limit and can be used to avoid being hit while casting spells (outside of Defensive Casting) or drinking potions. Niche, but still useful for anyone that needs to do those things mid-combat

Giving a bonus solely to Bardic Shadowdancers would basically make the class a Bard exclusive.

Mobility only adds your AC to movement AoOs, which is made obsolete by Tumble. Dodge is only good for 1v1s, something you shouldn't do as a Dex character.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: zDark Shadowz on August 21, 2018, 03:50:00 PM
It's all AoOs, not just movement.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Phantasia on March 18, 2019, 03:40:36 PM
Feel like this is a good time for some thread necromancy. Lots of positive vibes and feedback threads on classes lately.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Danuvis on March 18, 2019, 03:44:08 PM
SD remains a disappointment with the addition of Shrouded Dance. Any renewed opinions on this from staff, or potential improvements to the class?
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on March 18, 2019, 04:00:08 PM
I think SDs should get a bonus to hide/ms. Even from purely an RP perspective, it's pretty wonky that you've got a supernatural ability to literally vanish into shadows that can be undone by any bard having some okay gear and maybe a spell or two on them.

Also, like with every other class that gets access to a summon, the summons are underwhelming.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: PlatointheCave on March 18, 2019, 04:43:39 PM
Remove Shrouded Dance.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: IrishIron on March 18, 2019, 04:51:36 PM
Seconded
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: APorg on March 18, 2019, 04:54:23 PM
Thirded. This whole topic is a demonstration of power-creep.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Pav on March 18, 2019, 04:55:14 PM
Remove Shrouded Dance.

Me Level 7 Rogue.
Me render prestige classes’ roleplay and mechanics obsolete.
Unnnnngh.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: DM Erebus on March 18, 2019, 05:08:21 PM
I'd love to see some more class features for Shadowdancer that play into the 'trickster' archetype the PrC is built around.

In pen-and-paper Shadowdancers have two class features not replicated in nwn: Shadow Illusion, which functions as the silent image spell, and Shadow Jump, which functions as a short-range teleport a-la Dimension Door. In Pathfinder, they also get access to bonus Rogue feats and Shadow Conjuration/Greater Shadow Conjuration

I think some of these features could be implemented here. Shadow Conjuration as a spell-like ability with scaling uses/day with levels should be accomplishable, and would add a little flair and utility to the class.

Shadow Illusion, whilst potentially very neat and useful in pnp, can't really be replicated in nwn outside of DMed events.

Shadow Jump would be an excellent addition to the class, and give Shadowdancers something really unique and commanding, but also befitting their mystical nature. 
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: zDark Shadowz on March 18, 2019, 05:34:51 PM
Some servers make use of Shadowdancer only shortcuts between dark areas. Saves travel time, doesn't give any OP/abusive abilities.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Hypatia on March 18, 2019, 05:56:33 PM
I think I have to concur, while the Shrouded Dance feat is probably balanced, it steals the best thing a shadow dancer can get. People have to put a lot of thought and RP to get HiPs, and it should be unique and special to them.

When feats are added that steal all the thunder from other classes, its terrible for party dynamics. D&D works best when every class has something about it that sets it apart from all others so that you need to form groups and rely on other people for what you lack.  In NWN2 they added some ridiculous feat for bards that made them a better healer than a dedicated healer; an aura that casts mass heal & harm.. every round for a long time, and bards could do it like 20+ time per day. Instantly makes healers obsolete and useless. Thus, I quite playing NWN2. So I can see why giving any stealthy character the ability that ONLY a shadow dancer should be able have would ruffle feathers big time for the people who put in the RP and application to have this.

I think there would be more reasonable justification for this feat if the "perform" prereq was jacked waaaay the hell up. This seems like a pretty advanced dance move. You could literally get 5 ranks at level 1, and that seems more on par with someone who can do the centipede without getting hurt and can do the macarena without blundering into their neighbor when everyone shuffles to the left... Michael Jackson wasn't pulling off the moon-walk at no level 1 with 5 ranks in perform. No way... he had to take his perform skill way up there before he was gliding backwards across the stage like that. I'd say at least 10 ranks for the moonwalk. To vanish entirely while doing an action that actually draws MORE attention to you such as dancing around like a crazy-person in the middle of a fight?!? 15 ranks MINIMUM. Also, if you need like 15 ranks in perform, than you'd have a VALID Rp justification for being able to pull off this kind of move and the feat wouldn't be something you grab without planning, like a pack of gum at the grocery store check out. Its something that would require a serious investment in perform and stealth and no one could be able to give you crap for a once-a-day HiPs because of that.

So in short.. the perform requirment needs to be much higher in order to justify why someone can bust out moves so amazing, that you actually loose sight of them.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: PlatointheCave on March 18, 2019, 06:35:17 PM
I have changed my mind. Shrouded Dance encourages rogues to drop their stealth advantage to roleplay without having to feel like they've made themselves very vulnerable to do it. The value in allowing more antagonistic rogues to engage in scenes that'd otherwise be too risky outweighs the hit to SD mystique.

They still get to zip in and out of the shadows actively in battle and, frankly, stealthier classes needed a buff.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Pav on March 18, 2019, 06:38:50 PM
I have changed my mind. Shrouded Dance encourages rogues to drop their stealth advantage to roleplay without having to feel like they've made themselves very vulnerable to do it. The value in allowing more antagonistic rogues to engage in scenes that'd otherwise be too risky outweighs the hit to SD mystique.

They still get to zip in and out of the shadows actively in battle and, frankly, stealthier classes needed a buff.

carry a bottled black instead of having a one-button win like the rest of us boomers used to do
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: herkles on March 18, 2019, 06:40:34 PM
I'd love to see some more class features for Shadowdancer that play into the 'trickster' archetype the PrC is built around.

In pen-and-paper Shadowdancers have two class features not replicated in nwn: Shadow Illusion, which functions as the silent image spell, and Shadow Jump, which functions as a short-range teleport a-la Dimension Door. In Pathfinder, they also get access to bonus Rogue feats and Shadow Conjuration/Greater Shadow Conjuration

I think some of these features could be implemented here. Shadow Conjuration as a spell-like ability with scaling uses/day with levels should be accomplishable, and would add a little flair and utility to the class.

Shadow Illusion, whilst potentially very neat and useful in pnp, can't really be replicated in nwn outside of DMed events.

Shadow Jump would be an excellent addition to the class, and give Shadowdancers something really unique and commanding, but also befitting their mystical nature.

that would be neat and fitting for a shadow dancer. I wonder how the Shadow Jump would be implemented though.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Pav on March 18, 2019, 06:42:55 PM
I'd love to see some more class features for Shadowdancer that play into the 'trickster' archetype the PrC is built around.

In pen-and-paper Shadowdancers have two class features not replicated in nwn: Shadow Illusion, which functions as the silent image spell, and Shadow Jump, which functions as a short-range teleport a-la Dimension Door. In Pathfinder, they also get access to bonus Rogue feats and Shadow Conjuration/Greater Shadow Conjuration

I think some of these features could be implemented here. Shadow Conjuration as a spell-like ability with scaling uses/day with levels should be accomplishable, and would add a little flair and utility to the class.

Shadow Illusion, whilst potentially very neat and useful in pnp, can't really be replicated in nwn outside of DMed events.

Shadow Jump would be an excellent addition to the class, and give Shadowdancers something really unique and commanding, but also befitting their mystical nature.

that would be neat and fitting for a shadow dancer. I wonder how the Shadow Jump would be implemented though.

Been done by non-Sinfar coded servers, no reason it can't be done here. (https://easting.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_Strike)
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: foxtale on March 18, 2019, 06:43:15 PM
I think it is fine to have a variety of stealth characters that can do very similar things, just like it is fine that both Barbarians and fighters - if we look under the bottom of the line - are just good at making enemies dead with mundane tools. They can coexist and I agree with PlatointheCave's point that Shrouded Dance helped add to server atmosphere by empowering antagonists to play more prominent roles, thus letting others react more prominently as well.

I believe shadow dancers themselves should gain their flair and prestige from something more than the stealth mechanics. As I take it, a very big deal about them is that they are mystical and not just good at hiding, so this should be reflected in the game mechanics in a way that is a little more... flashy than HipS.

I support the people that suggested to give them more abilities like darkness casts and other trickster tools.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Pav on March 18, 2019, 06:45:32 PM
I agree with PlatointheCave's point that Shrouded Dance helped add to server atmosphere by empowering antagonists to play more prominent roles, thus letting others react more prominently as well.

carry a bottled black instead of having a one-button win like the rest of us boomers used to do

/s

To harp on some points I mentioned elsewhere before, and to post them publicly:

Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: zDark Shadowz on March 18, 2019, 08:43:45 PM
Unless you're pure ranger and get HiPS on top of 17 levels of ranger awesome. HiPS available outside of Shadowdancer is pretty meh.

There was a thread before on this where I was an advocate of shadowdancers getting 1/day Shadow Shield as a lvl 10 ability.

I hate stealth in general so I speak from bias and non-logical opinion when I say stealth needs a hard counter, there's not enough Spot short of an elven/halfling zen archery druid who brews insight/clairaudience/clairvoyance/true seeing, using Cat's Vision + Hawkvision & acquiring all Spot items they can use (can't use the eyes of eagle helmet because bronze) and prebuffing everywhere and at any time before seeing someone and so could be accused of meta-gaming when they do drink potions against someone they can't otherwise 'see'.

Even then that's not enough for some stealth builds & gear combinations. Simply because 50point skill cap + modifiers + feats + weather penalties + additional modifiers from distance, directional & objects in between (though at least the last 3 are on the actual positioning skill of the stealthed to acquire those.)

This all detracts from Shadowdancer feedback. Playing as a Shadowdancer on another server, the only feedback I can give is HiPS overshadows many other feats anyone could put acquire elsewhere. It's pretty damn awesome... But it's also why it needs a hard counter like true seeing actually working like true seeing, even if it was only possible through a Shapechange lvl 9 spell into a dragon that cant fit through narrow corridors and all Barovians would run screaming from.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Pav on March 18, 2019, 08:49:04 PM
There was a thread before on this where I was an advocate of shadowdancers getting 1/day Shadow Shield as a lvl 10 ability.

I hate stealth in general so I speak from bias and non-logical opinion when I say stealth needs a hard counter, there's not enough Spot short of an elven/halfling zen archery druid who brews insight/clairaudience/clairvoyance/true seeing, using Cat's Vision + Hawkvision & acquiring all Spot items they can use (can't use the eyes of eagle helmet because bronze) and prebuffing everywhere and at any time before seeing someone and so could be accused of meta-gaming when they do drink potions against someone they can't otherwise 'see'.

Even then that's not enough for some stealth builds & gear combinations. Simply because 50point skill cap + modifiers + feats + weather penalties + additional modifiers from distance, directional & objects in between (though at least the last 3 are on the actual positioning skill of the stealthed to acquire those.)

This all detracts from Shadowdancer feedback. Playing as a Shadowdancer on another server, the only feedback I can give is HiPS overshadows many other feats anyone could put acquire elsewhere. It's pretty damn awesome... But it's also why it needs a hard counter like true seeing actually working like true seeing, even if it was only possible through a Shapechange lvl 9 spell into a dragon that cant fit through narrow corridors and all Barovians would run screaming from.

Let me answer your points as they go.

Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: qwertyuioppp on March 19, 2019, 08:33:10 PM
I've split off the general stealth discussion to another thread. Please keep this thread contained more specifically to the intended discussion on Shadowdancers.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Kaninchen on December 23, 2019, 07:59:53 PM
Reading through this thread, there were some good points made.  As someone with a shadowdancer, I have some feedback based on my experience in obtaining the PrC, and playing it for a few months now.

I agree with the original post about Dodge and Mobility.  I realize not ever class who goes for Shadowdancer will be dex based, and so they may not have tumble ranks, but both of these feats focus on movement, which is a flavor fail, in my opinion. I would suggest to see one of them replaced with

Shadow Affinity
Spoiler: show
 The character has a natural affinity with the creatures of shadow. He summons outsiders from the Plane of Shadow one category higher than his level would normally allow. Additionally, the character gains a +1 bonus on saving throws versus negative energy.


It makes sense to me from a progression point. My PC went though months of figuring out stuff about shadows, and learning about the existence of the shadow plane, before *finally* finding a mentor to confirm, and finish my teaching.  To me, this process should lead towards an affinity for the shadow plane. This would also help the actual shadow itself. I was very sad to hit level 3 in the class, and find the shadow is incredibly underwhelming. I did some other reading, and found they get stronger for every 3rd level in the class taken. I also found a thread mentioning how a destroyed, or unsummoned, shadow can result in an exp loss if you fail a save. Seems like a steep malus, for such a "meh" summon. If this was changed, then my apologies for not being able to find a post stating otherwise.

Source: https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=43828.msg565953#msg565953

 My other bit of feedback stems from the description of the class on the PrC thread.  "Misconceptions and clarifications: Being a Shadowdancer has nothing to do with being a rogue," is a direct line. The idea that a SD is not a rogue, is actually mentioned twice in the post. If this is the case, why then is there such a similar feat progression between the two classes?  I speak of how both get the Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge feats, and the stronger ranks as the classes gain levels.  To me, it is inconsistent to have it mentioned twice on the PrC application page that a SD isn't a rogue, yet have such a similar set of feats gained at level. I can only think the shadowdancer has the rogue feats because not every class going for the PrC will be a rogue. I'll admit, I'm too new to the game to offer any decent alternatives, but just a feedback post after all :-D

I apologize if reviving old threads is a bit of a taboo, but seemed silly to start an entirely new one. Thanks for taking the time to read, and have a good holiday season :-D

https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Rogue
https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Shadowdancer

e: fixed the spoiler, and added links to make comparing the feat progression of the two classes easier.


Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: PlatointheCave on December 24, 2019, 09:07:12 AM
Re: swapping feat requirements I have no thoughts except to note that the existing requirements exist to reflect the dance aspect.

Re: progression of feats. The emphasis on not being a rogue is to highlight that it is a supernatural practice that isn't a natural extension of being good at hiding. It does not mean that Shadow Dancers don't develop similar talents. I'm firmly against deviating from the source books in this regard.

Shadow Dancers are fine where they're at. I play one and I think the roleplay is well supported by the class features. It would be neat to see Shadow Jump implemented but I suspect even with technical capability, it would introduce a host of issues if SDs could jump into areas that are otherwise inaccessible.

Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Hathor on September 08, 2020, 02:55:53 PM
Apologies for the necro (I figure someone necro'd this last time and no one seemed to mind) but I want to give my two cents:

- Overall despite the class being heavily front-loaded, the server's multiclassing rules for PrCs mean that front-loading isn't much of an issue in terms of overall power.
- However, in terms of flavor and fun, taking shadowdancer levels is pretty boring and doesn't provide much to look forward to (for a few reasons detailed below). This isn't necessarily a problem so long as the player takes it into their own hands to RP out and imagine the character's path.
- HiPs is extremely good, everyone knows this, it's why the class is desired. As noted elsewhere in this thread however, it's pretty lackluster in terms of actually being able to hide from other players. RP is sort of the point of this server, right? I understand that a flat bonus to stealth for Shadowdancers is probably not desired (though  I personally feel it is warranted given the RP and build investment, as well as extreme specialization), so what about using HiPs providing a temporary bonus to stealth? HiPs should, in my opinion, be at least for a few seconds guaranteed stealth. That's literally the idea of it. You're not sneaking real good, you're dancing with the actual shadow realm to escape or tease, and having it not even work because you're around high levels is a real RP flop. This would also solve the complaints in this thread of Shrouded Dance power creep. I don't have an issue with Shrouded Dance, but any stealther is going to want it as a generally acceptable alternative to again, literally using shadow magic. HiPs should have something added to it to make it more unique.
- Shadow Daze is a bit of a waste. With an extremely low DC (12?) it seems at best a bullying tool versus low levels or maybe small animals. Replacing Shadow Daze with either the skill bonuses listed above (skill bonuses to perform would be pretty nice too...just saying!) or perhaps a free Urban Stealth would be more interesting. Alternatively, a free Darkness one-per-day isn't too much to ask?

Just figured I'd add my two cents!
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Kaninchen on September 08, 2020, 03:28:14 PM
Not much of a shrouded dance power creep after the latest change to the pre-requisite feats for it, imo. We don't get access to the numbers, but I imagine it had a dramatic drop in popularity, as it's no longer "free."  So rather than make HiPS stronger, the devs took the route of making Shrouded Dance a choice/investment.

I don't personally think any change to HiPS is warranted. It does the job it is supposed to do, but I understand your point, and think your reasoning for the flavor with the shadow realm is on point.

I agree with you about shadow daze. It's an extremely "meh" ability (spell?).  A lot of the mechanical growth for the class is built into Shadow Evade getting stronger the deeper you go into the class, and also the summons getting stronger. I've not yet gotten to the point in the class to notice how good, or underwhelming they are. The information on them itself took a lot of digging by itself. Might suggest including the progression of them on the potm wiki, or in the tool tip?

Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Hathor on September 08, 2020, 03:42:41 PM
Not much of a shrouded dance power creep after the latest change to the pre-requisite feats for it, imo. We don't get access to the numbers, but I imagine it had a dramatic drop in popularity, as it's no longer "free."  So rather than make HiPS stronger, the devs took the route of making Shrouded Dance a choice/investment.

I don't personally think any change to HiPS is warranted. It does the job it is supposed to do, but I understand your point, and think your reasoning for the flavor with the shadow realm is on point.

I agree with you about shadow daze. It's an extremely "meh" ability (spell?).  A lot of the mechanical growth for the class is built into Shadow Evade getting stronger the deeper you go into the class, and also the summons getting stronger. I've not yet gotten to the point in the class to notice how good, or underwhelming they are. The information on them itself took a lot of digging by itself. Might suggest including the progression of them on the potm wiki, or in the tool tip?

Yeah, to clarify, I don't think there's an issue with Shrouded Dance. But if anyone does, perhaps my suggestion (which is proposed to solve other issues) would solve that as well.

Shadow Evade seems like one of the more fun and flavorful aspects of the class, I agree!
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: FinalHeaven on September 08, 2020, 03:52:10 PM
Apologies for the necro (I figure someone necro'd this last time and no one seemed to mind) but I want to give my two cents:

- Overall despite the class being heavily front-loaded, the server's multiclassing rules for PrCs mean that front-loading isn't much of an issue in terms of overall power.
- However, in terms of flavor and fun, taking shadowdancer levels is pretty boring and doesn't provide much to look forward to (for a few reasons detailed below). This isn't necessarily a problem so long as the player takes it into their own hands to RP out and imagine the character's path.
- HiPs is extremely good, everyone knows this, it's why the class is desired. As noted elsewhere in this thread however, it's pretty lackluster in terms of actually being able to hide from other players. RP is sort of the point of this server, right? I understand that a flat bonus to stealth for Shadowdancers is probably not desired (though  I personally feel it is warranted given the RP and build investment, as well as extreme specialization), so what about using HiPs providing a temporary bonus to stealth? HiPs should, in my opinion, be at least for a few seconds guaranteed stealth. That's literally the idea of it. You're not sneaking real good, you're dancing with the actual shadow realm to escape or tease, and having it not even work because you're around high levels is a real RP flop. This would also solve the complaints in this thread of Shrouded Dance power creep. I don't have an issue with Shrouded Dance, but any stealther is going to want it as a generally acceptable alternative to again, literally using shadow magic. HiPs should have something added to it to make it more unique.
- Shadow Daze is a bit of a waste. With an extremely low DC (12?) it seems at best a bullying tool versus low levels or maybe small animals. Replacing Shadow Daze with either the skill bonuses listed above (skill bonuses to perform would be pretty nice too...just saying!) or perhaps a free Urban Stealth would be more interesting. Alternatively, a free Darkness one-per-day isn't too much to ask?

Just figured I'd add my two cents!

I agree with pretty much everything in this post in theory, though maybe not specifically in terms of how to fix HiPS.  I wish the class overall was a bit more mechanically pleasing. 

Shrouded Dance definitely isn't as appealing as it used to be though, in my opinion.  I never take it now with the new prereqs.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Crowl on September 08, 2020, 05:05:35 PM
I'd like to add to this, something that is perhaps not widely known by those who see Shrouded Dance as being 'too powerful' or have had not the opportunity to use the feat themselves. With HiPS you stealth and you're gone. So fast, in fact, you can prevent any attack on your character if your stealth is high enough. And you can do this as many times as needed.

Shrouded Dance, on the other hand is actually casted. Not a free action. Your character stops doing whatever it is doing, lifts up both hands in the air and dances the macarena for a few seconds to attempt to disappear vs a DC of 30. On top of the pre-requisite feats and skills. Useable once.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: inkcorvid on September 08, 2020, 05:10:27 PM
Didn't realise Shrouded Dance used not to have prerequisites! One of my PCs leans on it heavily for atmospheric RP, as something spooky, ambiguously magical, a little wondrous but vaguely disquieting, eschewing any attempt to explain it concretely as anything other than "magic!". I love the fact that it's required so much feat investment as to have been very much not worth it in terms of an "optimized build", since anything that makes it rarer increases that mystique. And I do confess I would be a little sad if it were definitively explained as being one thing or another (ie. it's definitely proto-shadow magic, it's definitely mundane etc.)

And +1 to Crowl's comment on that macarena dance!
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: APorg on September 08, 2020, 05:20:22 PM
Are we really going to necro a thread and then argue points raised before the change?
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Hathor on September 08, 2020, 07:23:03 PM
Are we really going to necro a thread and then argue points raised before the change?

For those of us who are not familiar with what is different or what is wrong, could you point it out? My own post, which necro'd the thread, had nothing to do with Shrouded Dance.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: APorg on September 08, 2020, 07:35:02 PM
I'd like to add to this, something that is perhaps not widely known by those who see Shrouded Dance as being 'too powerful'

^

I mean this. Shrouded Dance was too powerful, it got nerfed; comparisons between Shadow Dancer and Shrouded Dance should be done with the new prerequirements in mind.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: Hathor on September 08, 2020, 07:39:22 PM
I'd like to add to this, something that is perhaps not widely known by those who see Shrouded Dance as being 'too powerful'

^

I mean this. Shrouded Dance was too powerful, it got nerfed; comparisons between Shadow Dancer and Shrouded Dance should be done with the new prerequirements in mind.

Gotcha, the way you phrased it made it sound like the person necro-ing the thread was arguing against old Shrouded Dance qualities. Thank you!
Title: Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
Post by: PlatointheCave on October 04, 2020, 06:08:43 AM
For those who do not know:

Shrouded Dance now requires: Skill Focus (Hide), Skill Focus (Perform), Hide 12 ranks, Perform 10 ranks.

The perform investment and feat cost of skill focus perform are steep and mean if someone wants to take shrouded dance there's a cost to their build. This seems balanced and fair to me, and is not the point of this thread's resurrection. As far as I can tell, Shrouded Dance is completely irrelevant to the ressurector's point.

-

As to the resurrector's point:

I play a shadow dancer. I have for some time. I fukken love the roleplay of it. HiPs isn't really worth the cost to a build from a strictly mechanical perspective, and it is not a class for those intent on maximising competitiveness. You have to waste feats getting it, then lose out on extra sneak dice of going pure rogue or the spell casting of an assassin. I know it can seem like this isn't the case a lot, but any buffed and properly equipped detector will completely nullify a shadow dancer's HiPs. My shadow dancer has hit the skill cap and is small and they still get detected. Especially if the detector is a Druid. I am okay with this. If any buff pushes them out of range of that sort of counter they become far, far too powerful. Stealth is, unfortunately, an all or nothing system. I have also not felt underpowered in PvE or PvP. Like all rogue based classes, it requires careful use, and is deadly in experienced hands.

What I would kill for is some kind of change to the summoned shadow. If not mechanically, I would like to see the summoned shadow reflect the dancer's model. Visually, this could be the character's model with shadow shield VFX. It wont make the class stronger, but every time I use my shadow in RP the giant human sized blob face really kills immersion.

TL;DR - The class is weaker than it seems. Not as weak as Crypt Raider (although Rhea managed plenty of murder despite that). If we as a community are striving to balance it could do with a buff. But this server isn't remotely balanced and never has been. I do think SD right now remains perfectly viable.