Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: EO on April 15, 2018, 01:37:29 PM

Title: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: EO on April 15, 2018, 01:37:29 PM
Although there is no upcoming hak update any time soon (most likely while/after we move to EE), here's a list of upcoming feats:

General:

Voracious
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisites: None.
Specifics: The character has discovered the mystical secret of how to steal a person's strength by devouring their corpse. By feeding upon the dead, the character becomes stronger and tougher, and heals wounds at a much faster rate. Sometimes, discovering the secret requires much deliberate research; sometimes, it is discovered accidentally in a moment of desperation and need. When the character eats the required amount of flesh from the corpse of a humanoid (5 pounds for a small creature, 20 pounds for a medium creature), he gains a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for a duration of one week. Eating more than one corpse during this period extends the duration but does not increase the bonus. The character also heals one hit point per level as though he had rested after a full meal. The character no longer gains nutrition from regular food and no longer recovers hit points when resting from eating.
Use: Selected.
Special: Any character may take this feat, but non-evil characters will find their alignments quickly twisting into evil if they use it.


Clarity of Vision
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Spot 12 ranks.
Specifics: The character can briefly see invisible opponents. Once per day, as a free action, he can attempt a DC 30 Spot check. If successful, he focuses his vision so clearly that he can see invisible creatures for one turn.
Use: Selected.


Healing Hands
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Heal 5 ranks.
Specifics: The character can bring someone back from the brink of death. Once per day, if the character succeeds on a Heal check made to stabilize a bleeding character, that character also heals 1d6 points of damage.
Use: Automatic.


Opening Tap
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Open Lock 12 ranks.
Specifics: The character has no time to waste on lock picking. A sharp tap is enough to open a lock. As a free action, the character can make an Open Lock check by tapping a lock with a hard, blunt object such as the pommel of a weapon. As long as the character has a weapon equipped, he can use this ability any number of times per day until he fails an Open Lock check made in this way. After a failure, the character canít use Opening Tap again until he has rested.
Use: Selected.


Shrouded Dance
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Hide 12 ranks, Perform 5 ranks.
Benefit: The character can seem to be where he isn't. Once per day, as a quick action, he can attempt a DC 30 Hide check. If he succeeds, the character gains 50% concealment for one round and instantly hides in plain sight as if he had the feat.
Use: Selected.


Extra Wild Shape
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Wild Shape.
Specifics: The character may use wild shape two extra times per day. If the character can use elemental shape, he can use it one extra time per day.
Use: Automatic.


Extra Rage
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Barbarian Rage.
Specifics: The character may use barbarian rage two extra times per day.
Use: Automatic.


Mystic Rage
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Barbarian level 10.
Specifics: During rage, the barbarian gains 4 spell resistance, up to a maximum of 28, for each rage feat the barbarian has, from the following list: Channeled Rage, Destructive Rage, Extended Rage, Extra Rage, Frantic Rage, Indomitable Will, Lightning Rage, Mystic Rage, Reckless Rage, Stone Rage, and Tireless Rage. Channeled Rage increases the maximum spell resistance to 32.
Use: Automatic.


Firearms:

Weapon Focus (flintlock)
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Proficiency with exotic weapons, base attack bonus +1 or higher.
Required for: Weapon Specialization (fighter only), Greater Weapon Focus (fighter only).
Specifics: A character with this feat is particularly skilled with a flintlock, gaining a +1 attack bonus with it.
Special: The attack bonus will not appear on the character's sheet.


Weapon Focus (musket)
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Proficiency with exotic weapons, base attack bonus +1 or higher.
Required for: Weapon Specialization (fighter only), Greater Weapon Focus (fighter only).
Specifics: A character with this feat is particularly skilled with a musket, gaining a +1 attack bonus with it.
Special: The attack bonus will not appear on the character's sheet.


Improved Critical (flintlock)
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Proficiency with exotic weapons, base attack bonus +8 or higher.
Required for: Overwhelming Critical (fighter only)
Specifics: Combat ability doubles the critical threat range with a flintlock. A flintlock that normally threatens a critical on a roll of 19-20 would now threaten a critical on a roll of 17-20.
Use: Automatic. The threat range of a Keen weapon is already doubled, increasing to triple with this feat.
Special: The critical threat range change will not appear on the character's sheet.


Improved Critical (musket)
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Proficiency with exotic weapons, base attack bonus +8 or higher.
Required for: Overwhelming Critical (fighter only)
Specifics: Combat ability doubles the critical threat range with a musket. A musket that normally threatens a critical on a roll of 19-20 would now threaten a critical on a roll of 17-20.
Use: Automatic. The threat range of a Keen weapon is already doubled, increasing to triple with this feat.
Special: The critical threat range change will not appear on the character's sheet.


Greater Weapon Focus (flintlock)
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: Combat
Prerequisite: Fighter level 13, Weapon Focus (flintlock).
Specifics: The character gains a +2 bonus to all attack rolls with a flintlock in addition to the +1 bonus given by Weapon Focus.
Use: Automatic.
Special: The attack bonus will not appear on the character's sheet.


Greater Weapon Focus (musket)
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: Combat
Prerequisite: Fighter level 13, Weapon Focus (musket).
Specifics: The character gains a +2 bonus to all attack rolls with a musket in addition to the +1 bonus given by Weapon Focus.
Use: Automatic.
Special: The attack bonus will not appear on the character's sheet.


Overwhelming Critical (flintlock)
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: Combat
Prerequisite: Fighter level 17, Str 18+, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (in chosen weapon) and Power Attack.
Specifics: When using the weapon chosen, the character deals +2d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, it's +3d6, and if the multiplier is x4, +4d6.
Use: Automatic.


Overwhelming Critical (musket)
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: Combat
Prerequisite: Fighter level 17, Str 18+, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (in chosen weapon) and Power Attack.
Specifics: When using the weapon chosen, the character deals +2d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, it's +3d6, and if the multiplier is x4, +4d6.
Use: Automatic.


Weapon Specialization (flintlock)
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: Special
Prerequisite: Must be a fighter, base attack bonus +4, Weapon Focus (flintlock).
Specifics: A character with this feat has trained especially hard with flintlocks, and gains a +2 damage bonus when using these weapons in combat.
Special: The damage bonus will not appear on the character's sheet.


Weapon Specialization (musket)
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: Special
Prerequisite: Must be a fighter, base attack bonus +4, Weapon Focus (musket).
Specifics: A character with this feat has trained especially hard with muskets, and gains a +2 damage bonus when using these weapons in combat.
Special: The damage bonus will not appear on the character's sheet.


Delven's Maneuver
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Dex 12+, Weapon Focus (musket) or Weapon Focus (flintlock).
Specifics: Renowned pistoleer Renee Delven was the first to popularize this intricate maneuver, which allows for the loading of a bullet a mere second before firing. When firing a firearm for which the character has the weapon focus feat, he no longer needs to load a bullet manually. As long as there is at least one bullet in the bullets slot, it will be loaded automatically when the character shoots. The character still needs to load gunpowder manually.
Use: Automatic.


Gearling's Superposed Loading Technique
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Dex 14+, Delven's Maneuver, Weapon Focus (musket) or Weapon Focus (flintlock).
Specifics: This intricate technique, first developed by the Gearling family for testing purposes, allows one to load both bullet and gunpowder at the same time in a matter of seconds. When firing a firearm for which the character has the weapon focus feat, he no longer needs to load bullets and gunpowder manually. As long as there is at least one bullet in the bullets slot and gunpowder in the character's inventory, they will be loaded automatically when he fires his weapon.
Use: Automatic.


Careful Handling
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Weapon Proficiency (Exotic).
Specifics: The character handles his firearms carefully and stores them properly. When using a firearm, the chance of the weapon backfiring is decreased by half.
Use: Automatic.


Magic:

Misted Magic
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level spells.
Specifics: The character has an enhanced ability to shape mist and fog. Whenever the character casts a foglike or cloud-creating spell, its area of effect and duration are doubled. This applies only when the character is casting one of the following spells: cloud of bewilderment, cloudkill, incendiary cloud, stinking cloud, acid fog or mind fog, spells in which the creation of a cloud or vapors is the primary element in the spell effect.
Use: Automatic.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: swizzlesaurus on April 15, 2018, 02:10:45 PM
Shrouded Dance
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Hide 12 ranks, Perform 5 ranks.
Benefit: The character can seem to be where he isn't. Once per day, as a free action, he can attempt a DC 30 Hide check. If he succeeds, the character gains 50% concealment for one round and instantly hides in plain sight as if he had the feat.
Use: Selected.


So can we talk about the implications of giving any class with hide as a class skill HiPS?
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Better Dread than Dead on April 15, 2018, 02:15:38 PM
I rather think it's fine. HiPS you can use as often as you like, whereas this is only good as a quick one-time escape. It accomplishes the same as throwing down Darkness or sneaking around the corner.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: aprogressivist on April 15, 2018, 02:25:24 PM
So who else's next concept is a cannibal pistoleer?
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: ViktorYouFool on April 15, 2018, 02:26:02 PM
I rather think it's fine. HiPS you can use as often as you like, whereas this is only good as a quick one-time escape. It accomplishes the same as throwing down Darkness or sneaking around the corner.
Also, given that sorcerers, wizards, and clerics all have access to Ethereal Jaunt which makes you literally invulnerable to anything but a small number of spells, and that any class with UMD can already potentially throw down a scroll to do the same, Letting someone have a babby version of HiPS as a once-per-day escape doesn't seem that OP by comparison.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: BadStrref on April 15, 2018, 02:42:23 PM
Are you single EO...I think I'm in love.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Pav on April 15, 2018, 06:36:54 PM
I hope that with all these pistol and musket feats, their damage will be reduced accordingly to compensate for some of the potential they have in PvP encounters. On the flipside, I also hope to see gunsmithing, production of blackpowder and special bullets.

I rather think it's fine. HiPS you can use as often as you like, whereas this is only good as a quick one-time escape. It accomplishes the same as throwing down Darkness or sneaking around the corner.

I disagree. While Shadowdancers can abuse it, they are not a base class. Corner sneaking and throwing down darkness might seem as easy things to do, but they take time and player skill. This is cheap to grab and does not seem to require either of those things, and quite literally every stealthing class can afford to have it. If anything, this also makes the case of a Rogue/Ranger to be superior to pure Ranger once and for all, with the added benefits of the former's class skills and skill point gains.

All the other feats seem okay, if a bit pointless. I will hold that these last few hak updates served little to address the problems with PotM's mechanics, and only added flavor that contributes to flair and a brief sense of wonderment. While I appreciate the work put in by the development team, with the new prestige classes and other additions that have made the game world far more enthusing and diverse, I can't help but feel some of these efforts could've been pointed at more long term issues that were already discussed in dozens of threads (loot, scroll prices, rogue inferiority).
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: aprogressivist on April 15, 2018, 06:55:03 PM
Shrouded Dance
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Hide 12 ranks, Perform 5 ranks.
Benefit: The character can seem to be where he isn't. Once per day, as a free action, he can attempt a DC 30 Hide check. If he succeeds, the character gains 50% concealment for one round and instantly hides in plain sight as if he had the feat.
Use: Selected.

I've been thinking about this feat. Just for the sake of comparison, here's the text from this website: http://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/shrouded-dance--3303/index.html

Quote
Prerequisite
Hide 8 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks,

Benefit
As a move action, you can attempt a DC 20 Hide check. If you succeed, you have concealment until the start of your next turn.

So in tabletop, this is basically a DC20 Hide check to get 20% concealment for one turn. Obviously rolling this every turn in tabletop is not a problem, but in NWN would be an irritating clickfest.

The differences your version brings in, then, the Hide requirement upped to 12 (it keeps it out of reach of cross-classes but isn't actually much of a requirement for Stealthers since those who do invest in Hide are going to be aiming for 22 or 23 ranks of Hide anyway); and instead of being constantly re-usable every turn for 20% concealment, you use it once per rest for HIPS.

Sure, it's only once per rest, but it's worth bearing in mind that this means any Monk or Rogue (who get Perform as a class skill) can get it for the meagre investment of (effectively ignoring the Hide requirement since that's what they were going to buy anyway) one Feat and 5 skill points in Perform. That's low. Indeed, when I think of what this Feat can do in the hands of any level 20 Monk, Rogue or Assassin to turn the table on potential ambushers (or make level 20 monks even more uncatchable), I think that's very low.

Therefore I think to be balanced, the Performance requirement is really what ought to be raised; that's the real speed bump, not the Hide requirement. IMO around 10 ranks of Perform would start to be in the right ball park.

(And TBH I'm starting to think even Perform 10 is still to be low....)
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Pav on April 15, 2018, 06:59:07 PM
I would also perhaps put a level and class requirement, Bard 12 and Monk 12, on top of aprog's suggestion.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: ViktorYouFool on April 15, 2018, 09:51:03 PM
I would also perhaps put a level and class requirement, Bard 12 and Monk 12, on top of aprog's suggestion.
Why should this be limited to monks and bards?

Honestly, I think it's fine as-is, given that other classes get better for free.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: aprogressivist on April 16, 2018, 12:58:29 AM
Honestly, I think it's fine as-is, given that other classes get better for free.

This sort of statement is really not true. To get access to "better" (e.g. spells that let you escape) requires an investment into enough caster levels (13 to 14) that you have to be a caster; or having scrolls and the UMD to use them as a Rogue/Bard/Assassin. There's always an opportunity cost.

Hell, let's analyse Monks, since they get both a "for free" not really free ability like this, and are a class that could easily take Shrouded Dance, since they have in Class Perform and Hide.

PotM Monks (http://nwnravenloft.wikia.com/wiki/Monk) get empty body at level 18, which lets them cast Ethereal Jaunt once per day. This isn't really "for free" because it commits you to being a high level Monk to get it; you can't, for example, be a Monk/Assassin and get this.

On the other hand, Shrouded Dance as currently written, any level 9 Rogue, Monk or Bard can get this at the cost of -- effectively -- 1 feat and 5 ranks in Perform (since the investment in Hide is taken as given). This is a extremely low opportunity cost that closes very few doors. You can be a pure Rogue, Bard or Monk and do this; or you can still easily play your Rogue/Ranger multiclass or your Rogue/Assassin or Monk/Assassin or Bard/whatever and do this.

So you see: on the one hand, the Monk can choose to go for Empty Body -- but in that case he can't take a Prestige Class -- or he can go for Shrouded Dance, and do whatever the hell he wants.

If I'm a Wizard or Cleric, then that comes with consequences of being a Wizard or Cleric or that level. Nothing is really "free".

One should beware of introducing choices in the game that are too easy to make. The choice to take Shrouded Dance as written is an extremely easy choice to make for the return it gives. Even at Perform 10, I believe it's an excellent deal.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: RedwizardD on April 16, 2018, 01:25:50 AM
Are these feats for real? Some of this abilities are ridiculous sounding.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Iridni Ren on April 16, 2018, 01:35:10 AM
PotM Monks (http://nwnravenloft.wikia.com/wiki/Monk) get empty body at level 18, which lets them cast Ethereal Jaunt once per day.

Since Ethereal Jaunt was only just introduced as a spell in the module, I assume this is a recent change.

Was it discussed anywhere (or announced)? The regular NWN Empty Body seems pretty straightforward (50 percent concealment, 1 round/level, twice per day). Any reason for the change?
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: aprogressivist on April 16, 2018, 01:39:33 AM
PotM Monks (http://nwnravenloft.wikia.com/wiki/Monk) get empty body at level 18, which lets them cast Ethereal Jaunt once per day.

Since Ethereal Jaunt was only just introduced as a spell in the module, I assume this is a recent change.

Was it discussed anywhere (or announced)? The regular NWN Empty Body seems pretty straightforward (50 percent concealment, 1 round/level, twice per day). Any reason for the change?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#emptyBody

This follows 3.5 rules.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Pav on April 16, 2018, 01:44:11 AM
I would also perhaps put a level and class requirement, Bard 12 and Monk 12, on top of aprog's suggestion.
Why should this be limited to monks and bards?

Honestly, I think it's fine as-is, given that other classes get better for free.

Because of aprog's reasoning and because they fit the concept of Shrouded Dance better than Rogues. I would also rather not make optimal assassin builds be able to take a HiPS use.

To add to this point belatedly, Bards and Monks make a hefty investment of skillpoints in taking h/ms. Most Bards are Strength these days, and the Dexterity ones don't necessarily have enough Intelligence for those skillpoints. Those that do are inferior elsewhere.

Monks crossclass things like spellcraft and since they have no UMD, cannot stealth as effectively as the other stealthing classes through use of scrolls.

The ability in general, both thematically and mechanically fits better for these two classes to remain balanced, on top of the 10 Perform suggested requirement.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Tarnation! on April 17, 2018, 09:37:50 PM
Will there ever be a Literacy feat for balancing out the inherent barbarian illiteracy that was implemented?
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Arawn on April 17, 2018, 09:39:48 PM
Will there ever be a Literacy feat for balancing out the inherent barbarian illiteracy that was implemented?

Yes, and in the next update.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: ViktorYouFool on April 25, 2018, 02:44:39 AM
Random thought:

Quote from: Overhelming Critical
Type of Feat: Combat
Prerequisite: Fighter level 17, Str 18+, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (in chosen weapon) and Power Attack.
Specifics: When using the weapon chosen, the character deals +2d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, it's +3d6, and if the multiplier is x4, +4d6.
Use: Automatic.

This makes perfect sense for most weapons, but does it strike anyone else weird that, say, Overwhelming Critical (Musket) Would require 18 Strength, Cleave, Great Cleave, and Power Attack? A melee weapon, sure. But power attack, cleave, and great cleave can't interact with ranged weapons at all, and no amount of strength your character might have in any way effects their efficacy with crossbows or firearms.

Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Pav on April 25, 2018, 07:29:28 AM
Random thought:

Quote from: Overhelming Critical
Type of Feat: Combat
Prerequisite: Fighter level 17, Str 18+, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (in chosen weapon) and Power Attack.
Specifics: When using the weapon chosen, the character deals +2d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, it's +3d6, and if the multiplier is x4, +4d6.
Use: Automatic.

This makes perfect sense for most weapons, but does it strike anyone else weird that, say, Overwhelming Critical (Musket) Would require 18 Strength, Cleave, Great Cleave, and Power Attack? A melee weapon, sure. But power attack, cleave, and great cleave can't interact with ranged weapons at all, and no amount of strength your character might have in any way effects their efficacy with crossbows or firearms.

Muskets can be used in melee.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: BraveSirRobin on April 25, 2018, 07:59:50 AM
Random thought:

Quote from: Overhelming Critical
Type of Feat: Combat
Prerequisite: Fighter level 17, Str 18+, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (in chosen weapon) and Power Attack.
Specifics: When using the weapon chosen, the character deals +2d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, it's +3d6, and if the multiplier is x4, +4d6.
Use: Automatic.

This makes perfect sense for most weapons, but does it strike anyone else weird that, say, Overwhelming Critical (Musket) Would require 18 Strength, Cleave, Great Cleave, and Power Attack? A melee weapon, sure. But power attack, cleave, and great cleave can't interact with ranged weapons at all, and no amount of strength your character might have in any way effects their efficacy with crossbows or firearms.

Muskets can be used in melee.

So let's pretend for a moment that's exactly how it was intended. Why does (flintlock) have the same stat requirments when a Flintlock cannot be used in melee under any circumstances? Clearly this was intended for their ranged function, otherwise only (musket) would be eligible for the feat under those requirements and even then- For some unknown reason 18 Strength, Cleave, Great Cleave and Power Attack feats influence your characters' ability to shoot the enemy better, which makes no sense.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: aprogressivist on April 25, 2018, 08:37:18 AM
It's really just an artefact, a consequence of the fact that Overwhelming Critical has those prerequisites in general. Is it sensible? No. Is it unfortunate? Yes. But then the same issue applies to Overwhelming Critical for bows and crossbows.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Pav on April 25, 2018, 08:40:34 AM
Random thought:

Quote from: Overhelming Critical
Type of Feat: Combat
Prerequisite: Fighter level 17, Str 18+, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (in chosen weapon) and Power Attack.
Specifics: When using the weapon chosen, the character deals +2d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, it's +3d6, and if the multiplier is x4, +4d6.
Use: Automatic.

This makes perfect sense for most weapons, but does it strike anyone else weird that, say, Overwhelming Critical (Musket) Would require 18 Strength, Cleave, Great Cleave, and Power Attack? A melee weapon, sure. But power attack, cleave, and great cleave can't interact with ranged weapons at all, and no amount of strength your character might have in any way effects their efficacy with crossbows or firearms.

Muskets can be used in melee.

So let's pretend for a moment that's exactly how it was intended. Why does (flintlock) have the same stat requirments when a Flintlock cannot be used in melee under any circumstances? Clearly this was intended for their ranged function, otherwise only (musket) would be eligible for the feat under those requirements and even then- For some unknown reason 18 Strength, Cleave, Great Cleave and Power Attack feats influence your characters' ability to shoot the enemy better, which makes no sense.

The question was answered sufficiently for its specific case.

It's really just an artefact, a consequence of the fact that Overwhelming Critical has those prerequisites in general. Is it sensible? No. Is it unfortunate? Yes. But then the same issue applies to Overwhelming Critical for bows and crossbows.

+1
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Salty_Soykaf on April 27, 2018, 02:55:59 AM
....Welp, time to kill off my PCs and start a gunslinger. Jonah Hex time, yall!
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Indigocell on April 27, 2018, 05:23:39 PM
I have a few questions. I'm assuming these feats are not implemented yet? Also, will firearms have the same problems after we move to EE as they do now? For example, right now the "enchanted" pistols do not seem to add any value to the AB, and they also cannot penetrate certain forms of DR as they should. I could be wrong about that because it's been awhile since I've tested them.

After these feats are implemented and we upgrade to EE, will those issues be resolved? Will firearms be a viable target for spells such as Greater Magic Weapon so they might penetrate DR?
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: ASymphony on April 27, 2018, 10:19:48 PM
Although there is no upcoming hak update any time soon (most likely while/after we move to EE), here's a list of upcoming feats:

Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: BadStrref on April 28, 2018, 06:31:35 PM
Flintlocks are already a valid target for weapon buffs (Gmw, keen, banebow etc) however the script that they function off of will only take certain effects consideration. For ab, gmw, true strike, banebow all increase your bonus to hit. The effect that is used, however, does not take eb/ab bonuses into consideration for the purpose of bypassing DR. Perhaps with EE new effects could be considered for flintlocks to replace the one we have now but I'll hazard to say it's unlikely.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Iridni Ren on April 28, 2018, 07:41:43 PM
Although there is no upcoming hak update any time soon (most likely while/after we move to EE), here's a list of upcoming feats:


It's been some time since then. It's a legitimate question, so don't be a dick. I did have other questions in that post, you know. Nah you're just gonna ignore all that because you saw an opportunity to be both pedantic and unhelpful at the same time.

Actually, it's been less than two weeks. As the rest of your questions are speculative, most of us probably can't answer them for you.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: haifisch021 on April 29, 2018, 02:49:04 AM
Shrouded Dance
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Hide 12 ranks, Perform 5 ranks.
Benefit: The character can seem to be where he isn't. Once per day, as a free action, he can attempt a DC 30 Hide check. If he succeeds, the character gains 50% concealment for one round and instantly hides in plain sight as if he had the feat.
Use: Selected.


So can we talk about the implications of giving any class with hide as a class skill HiPS?

I agree, I think this should be discussed.

While I definitely think that rogues (and other mundane classes) are in need of some love, this feat seems like a PvP feat for the most part. DC 30 is something that a player would have difficulty reaching without gear unless they have spot/listen as a class skill, but I don't really see many mobs failing the hide check.

To my knowledge, rogues and other stealthy classes are already spectacular in PvP situations - giving all of them access to free HiPS seems excessive, especially considering how easily HiPS can be abused.

If feats like this are going to be added, then there need to be sufficient countermeasures to check them.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: aprogressivist on April 29, 2018, 09:16:09 AM
Well -- HIPS once per rest period can't be abused. That's not the problem with Shrouded Dance. The issue is that the pre-requisites are ridiculously cheap -- any Hide pre-req is a gimme since Stealthers are gonna max out Hide anyway -- so the only pre-req that matters is the Perform 5 one; which is very cheap.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: EO on April 29, 2018, 03:10:18 PM
-Added Extra Wild Shape/Extra Rage feats

Quote
While I definitely think that rogues (and other mundane classes) are in need of some love, this feat seems like a PvP feat for the most part. DC 30 is something that a player would have difficulty reaching without gear unless they have spot/listen as a class skill, but I don't really see many mobs failing the hide check.

The 30 Hide check is for the character using it. A stealther needs to beat a DC 30 check for the feat to work. Though keep in mind it's essentially a one-shot HiPS so you can't abuse it like HiPS to go in and out constantly. Also, as usual the best counter for Hide/MS is Spot/Listen. A character who could normally spot the character will still be able to do it.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: ViktorYouFool on April 29, 2018, 04:30:31 PM
-Added Extra Wild Shape/Extra Rage feats

Will Extra Rage affect the spell resistance for Mystic Rage the way most other Rage feats do?
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: EO on April 29, 2018, 04:39:38 PM
-Added Extra Wild Shape/Extra Rage feats

Will Extra Rage affect the spell resistance for Mystic Rage the way most other Rage feats do?

Yes.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Teamplayer on April 30, 2018, 10:50:41 AM
The issue in what makes hips dangerous is its use for easy escape. Spamming it is fun but its really not needed. Basically all stealth classes just now have a once per 20 minutes hips use. I think the feat is to much all together. The crit immunity from pale master already got cannibalized into a druid feat. I feel like all the focused prestige classes with specific one bonus good things are getting torn up to hand out. Shadow Dancers have to jump through hoops of red tape and rp to get it. They lose thier sneak attack progression if they are a rogue. Lose spellcaster lvls and other things if they are a ranger etc.  Now we are cutting up Shadow Dancer. Why even be a shadow dancer other than the lil bit of rp you can do. If I was a shadow dancer I would just end up remaking to get rid of the otherwise useless class. Rp with your shadow anyway. At least you dont have to deal with it popping in on your death to rip your party apart. Now its more trouble than its worth.

I thought hips was supposed to be super difficult to get through shadow dancer apps just because of how dangerous it is. Not because battle use. But because the easy escape features to be used in rp situations. While I'd like to see it removed maybe put it as a lvl 20 rogue lock ability since I doubt it will be taken out.. (then you have rogue and ranger stealth classes with an ability they shouldnt have... *facepalms*) I dont think its needed. Heck I thought the rangers getting it was silly in itself as shadow dancers are put under a hot iron to rp their own hips more appropriately. Whats next up?  A feat that allows you to shapechange into an animal of your choice even if your not a druid. only need 5 points animal handling? Or perhaps feats that allow you to tear out fire breath from RDD. Or perhaps we can cannibalize arcane archer and give their fireball arrow to regular archers.

These abilities made rp choice app directions for your character feel special. If everyone can use hips that can stealth it is no longer a special ability and hips use to be high rung something that you just didnt see and it was an accomplishment for someone who had them. Now ppl will look at shadow dancers like.... why? Why take the class? There is a feat dude. This goes the same with the rest. Base classes were just ment to be that. BASE classes. Common base classes. Prestige classes on the other hand are suppose to be PRESTIGIOUS. Now you dont even have to deal with the red tape of an app anymore.

Edit to add:

Think of the situation where the garda are walking down a path. 5 characters all with this feat. maybe a monk. a ranger. a rogue etc etc some multi class ones. the garda want to grab them. they are right on top of them. they dont have to run anymore. they all hit thier hips ability and ninja away
fun?
realistic in our gritty attempt at a gothic setting?
everyone gets to be a ninja apparently

Can you imagine the difficulties now had with hunting anyone down? You spent all day hanging out in the seldom populated Village of Barovia. You see who your hunting and plan to take them in for thier various crimes or whatever... You get ready. You jump! They go into hips and...simply walk away. No running needed. This is the true power of a shadow dancer
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: DM Cataclysm on April 30, 2018, 11:05:46 AM
I would disagree that the real power of HIPS is making an escape. Itís a huge tool for combat scenarios.

The ability to drop in and out of stealth during combat is huge. When you attack something that canít detect you, you catch them flat footed and gain sneak attack if the class has that. Iíve also used it to disrupt spellcasting when being targeted with offensive spells. I think putting the timer on was a great move, because even with it - you can do some damage that wouldnít otherwise be possible (like seeing a kobold fight 5 pit fiends at once! :3) This is still going to be something you can only really do with a class that has HIPS as a bonus.

If anything, I think having the feat will be more usable for a one-off escape plan. Still very powerful, but you arenít going to wreck the server with it.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: haifisch021 on April 30, 2018, 06:09:19 PM
Complete Scoundrel, p.89: Shrouded Dance
Spoiler: show
You can seem to be where you aren't.
 Prerequisite: Hide 8 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks.
 Benefit: As a move action, you can attempt a DC 20 Hide check. If you succeed, you have concealment until the start of your next turn.


Changes from PnP to NWN:

The most significant difference I see between the PnP and the NWN versions of Shrouded Dance is the type of action the feat is. Free actions rarely invoke an attack of opportunity, but free actions often do. If I were to propose a solution to balance this feat while remaining true to the source material, I would propose the following:

These changes make logical sense. A "dance" or similar series of movements would require some sort of wind-up or tell, and if this tell is read then an opponent would be able to react accordingly. Additionally, these changes differentiate this feat from a Shadow Dancer's HiPS. A Shadow Dancer's HiPS stems from their unique attunement to shadow (and is typically a magical property), so it would make sense that their HiPS would be a free action. Shrouded Dance's form of HiPS, however, is essentially a feint. Adequately differentiating the two forms allows for a genuinely cool and interesting mechanic to be given to those who choose to invest in the feat while simultaneously maintaining the prestige and special qualities of the hard-earned Shadow Dancer.

For further reading, I will direct you to Pav's Shadow Dancer Feedback thread: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=48338.0;topicseen
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: EO on April 30, 2018, 10:06:05 PM
Quote
These changes make logical sense. A "dance" or similar series of movements would require some sort of wind-up or tell, and if this tell is read then an opponent would be able to react accordingly. Additionally, these changes differentiate this feat from a Shadow Dancer's HiPS. A Shadow Dancer's HiPS stems from their unique attunement to shadow (and is typically a magical property), so it would make sense that their HiPS would be a free action. Shrouded Dance's form of HiPS, however, is essentially a feint. Adequately differentiating the two forms allows for a genuinely cool and interesting mechanic to be given to those who choose to invest in the feat while simultaneously maintaining the prestige and special qualities of the hard-earned Shadow Dancer.

Good point about it being a Move action which triggers AoO. I'll set it up to be a quick action.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Iridni Ren on May 01, 2018, 02:52:01 AM
+1
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Syl on May 22, 2018, 02:43:25 PM
I do want to voice a complaint about the shadow feat.. though I haven't been on as active due to rl reasons, I find this feat truely and utterly a slap in the face for people taking the shadow dancer prc.

If this is a technique I'm sure this would of been thwarted by true dancers if it was found out since the dance is part of their ability. And I doubt they would share such teachings willingly..

Personally with how much stealth gear is out there this ability  causes any person with any kind of stealth gear to be a shadow dancer. It is a cheap and lazy feat  that should never have been brought up not even SDs get concealment from their hips. If.. And IF such a feat should exist the requierments should be higher towards 15+ hide.. of point put into it. At least.  That is at least 13 levels of. OR put in a requirement of class levels of 9 or more rogue levels..

Or possibly just make it a rogue feat only. Since if I recall rangers got hips  But you have to be pure ranger right?

I'm not against change, I often welcome change but this won't go well without it restricted or treated with the kind of strictness as the SD app...

If it was a rogue only special feat I can see that better then it being just allowed fir all since there are folks out there with a ridiculous hide that can easily meet the dc hitting over 70+ hide without breaking a sweat but my SD can only hit 50s on a roll if I'm lucky?...

Playing with the shadow is a dangerous thing and it is not something to toy with... such a power I fear well be miss used by some that don't take the time to go through the app for SD.. I humbly ask the developers to reconsider either removing it or making it a rogue special ability feat
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on May 22, 2018, 07:47:10 PM
I do want to voice a complaint about the shadow feat.. though I haven't been on as active due to rl reasons, I find this feat truely and utterly a slap in the face for people taking the shadow dancer prc.

If this is a technique I'm sure this would of been thwarted by true dancers if it was found out since the dance is part of their ability. And I doubt they would share such teachings willingly..

Shrouded Dance has nothing to do with the forces that Shadowdancers utilize. Shrouded Dance is considered Manipulation and a Skill Trick, and falls more in line with Rangers and Grimetrekkers using camouflage to blend into their surroundings. Shadowdancers are the only ones with a supernatural form of HiPS, and mechanically it's still the one with the least limitations on usage, by far.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: swizzlesaurus on May 22, 2018, 08:56:29 PM
 
I do want to voice a complaint about the shadow feat.. though I haven't been on as active due to rl reasons, I find this feat truely and utterly a slap in the face for people taking the shadow dancer prc.

If this is a technique I'm sure this would of been thwarted by true dancers if it was found out since the dance is part of their ability. And I doubt they would share such teachings willingly..

Shrouded Dance has nothing to do with the forces that Shadowdancers utilize. Shrouded Dance is considered Manipulation and a Skill Trick, and falls more in line with Rangers and Grimetrekkers using camouflage to blend into their surroundings. Shadowdancers are the only ones with a supernatural form of HiPS, and mechanically it's still the one with the least limitations on usage, by far.

Shrouded Dance
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Hide 12 ranks, Perform 5 ranks.
Benefit: The character can seem to be where he isn't. Once per day, as a quick action, he can attempt a DC 30 Hide check. If he succeeds, the character gains 50% concealment for one round and instantly hides in plain sight as if he had the feat.
Use: Selected.


This feat encompasses the exact manner that my and Syl's shadowdancers utilize hips. For the past 11 months this has 'dance' has been how I have RPed my characters ability to HiPS. I can't explain to you how much I agree with Syl on the fact that this feat is a complete slap in the face. Any one can be a Shadowdancer now in my eyes. The only thing you would want to take the PRC for is if you want to abuse HiPS. For proof here is a screenshot from 11 months ago. Before this feat was even an idea.

(https://i.gyazo.com/0803aa1b6a7d06fc6dede86a31454249.png)

The training I did and the hours I put in to obtain the SD class have turned into something I regret now with this feat.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: serbiris on May 22, 2018, 10:32:04 PM
Wow, I don't know about you guys but I'm super excited to take Healing Hands. Maybe as an added bonus, you could use those hands to try and count the number of situations in which this feat is useful.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: aprogressivist on May 22, 2018, 10:52:59 PM
I'm perplexed that Shrouded Dance's prerequisites haven't been raised. It is utterly overpowered with a mere Performance 5 gate.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on May 22, 2018, 11:54:33 PM
I do want to voice a complaint about the shadow feat.. though I haven't been on as active due to rl reasons, I find this feat truely and utterly a slap in the face for people taking the shadow dancer prc.

If this is a technique I'm sure this would of been thwarted by true dancers if it was found out since the dance is part of their ability. And I doubt they would share such teachings willingly..

Shrouded Dance has nothing to do with the forces that Shadowdancers utilize. Shrouded Dance is considered Manipulation and a Skill Trick, and falls more in line with Rangers and Grimetrekkers using camouflage to blend into their surroundings. Shadowdancers are the only ones with a supernatural form of HiPS, and mechanically it's still the one with the least limitations on usage, by far.

Shrouded Dance
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Hide 12 ranks, Perform 5 ranks.
Benefit: The character can seem to be where he isn't. Once per day, as a quick action, he can attempt a DC 30 Hide check. If he succeeds, the character gains 50% concealment for one round and instantly hides in plain sight as if he had the feat.
Use: Selected.


This feat encompasses the exact manner that my and Syl's shadowdancers utilize hips. For the past 11 months this has 'dance' has been how I have RPed my characters ability to HiPS. I can't explain to you how much I agree with Syl on the fact that this feat is a complete slap in the face. Any one can be a Shadowdancer now in my eyes. The only thing you would want to take the PRC for is if you want to abuse HiPS. For proof here is a screenshot from 11 months ago. Before this feat was even an idea.

(https://i.gyazo.com/0803aa1b6a7d06fc6dede86a31454249.png)

The training I did and the hours I put in to obtain the SD class have turned into something I regret now with this feat.

I mean, I've also got a Shadowdancer (as well as a Shifter, who can also use HiPS) and I'm not terribly concerned about any of this. I took the class because the story led me there, not because I wanted a fancy ability trophy to lord over others.

Mechanically, Shrouded Dance can only be used once a rest. That's not that big of a deal to me.

Lore-wise, Shadowdancers' Hide in Plain Sight is a Supernatural ability, whereas all of these others (Shrouded Dance, Ranger HiPS, Grimetrekker HiPS, Kobold HiPS) are not. Shrouded Dance in particular is a bit like throwing a blanket up and then dashing out of a room before it falls, giving the illusion that you've disappeared. That's something people should be taking into account while roleplaying these abilities.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Cursed Ink on May 23, 2018, 03:44:38 AM
I took the class because the story led me there, not because I wanted a fancy ability trophy to lord over others.

Nice drive by insult.

-

Only ever got to play a SD for a short period, but the class itself has a high prerequisite for application. It does seem strange that its main strength, its true strength can be easily replicated without application for a small investment.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: FlyingLotus on May 23, 2018, 11:32:54 AM
I do want to voice a complaint about the shadow feat.. though I haven't been on as active due to rl reasons, I find this feat truely and utterly a slap in the face for people taking the shadow dancer prc.

If this is a technique I'm sure this would of been thwarted by true dancers if it was found out since the dance is part of their ability. And I doubt they would share such teachings willingly..

Shrouded Dance has nothing to do with the forces that Shadowdancers utilize. Shrouded Dance is considered Manipulation and a Skill Trick, and falls more in line with Rangers and Grimetrekkers using camouflage to blend into their surroundings. Shadowdancers are the only ones with a supernatural form of HiPS, and mechanically it's still the one with the least limitations on usage, by far.

Shrouded Dance
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Hide 12 ranks, Perform 5 ranks.
Benefit: The character can seem to be where he isn't. Once per day, as a quick action, he can attempt a DC 30 Hide check. If he succeeds, the character gains 50% concealment for one round and instantly hides in plain sight as if he had the feat.
Use: Selected.


This feat encompasses the exact manner that my and Syl's shadowdancers utilize hips. For the past 11 months this has 'dance' has been how I have RPed my characters ability to HiPS. I can't explain to you how much I agree with Syl on the fact that this feat is a complete slap in the face. Any one can be a Shadowdancer now in my eyes. The only thing you would want to take the PRC for is if you want to abuse HiPS. For proof here is a screenshot from 11 months ago. Before this feat was even an idea.

(https://i.gyazo.com/0803aa1b6a7d06fc6dede86a31454249.png)

The training I did and the hours I put in to obtain the SD class have turned into something I regret now with this feat.

So, would you feel better if the word dance weren't in the feat's name?

This is far removed from what a shadowdancer does both mechanically and from a rp perspective. It's also significantly less powerful.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Troukk on May 23, 2018, 12:51:48 PM
I find this feat truely and utterly a slap in the face for people taking the shadow dancer prc.

That depends. If you took SD for the mechanics, yeah, it's a slap in the face. If you took SD for the RP flavor, this skill does not concern you at all. In fact, the upcoming HAK update will be giving you more SD flavor in the form of a cooler shadow summon feat.

Personally with how much stealth gear is out there this ability  causes any person with any kind of stealth gear to be a shadow dancer.

No, it requires perform, so it's still restricted to rogues and bards. Also, being a shadowdancer is a lot more than just having HiPS.

I often welcome change but this won't go well without it restricted or treated with the kind of strictness as the SD app...

This is actually what I like most about the change. For years, shadowdancer has been considered the hardest PrC to get. The Community Council, with good reason, has had the concern that many of the people who apply for shadowdancer do so for the sole reason of getting a mechanical advantage through HiPS. Now that the goose is loose, we can expect two things to happen:

- First: The players that apply for Shadowdancer will do so mainly for the RP flavor of the class and because their storyline led them there. Mechanical advantages will be secondary at best.

- Second: The CC won't be as concerned about the PrC being taken for the wrong reasons, allowing the class to be more accessible to all players who really want it, as long as they learn the lore and have had the proper IC interactions leading to the PrC.

Both things are positive in my book.

If it was a rogue only special feat I can see that better then it being just allowed fir all since there are folks out there with a ridiculous hide that can easily meet the dc hitting over 70+ hide without breaking a sweat but my SD can only hit 50s on a roll if I'm lucky?...

Class is mostly irrelevant when it comes to Hide/MS, except some minor bonuses that rangers get in the wilderness. If they are outstealthing you, is because they have feats/gear that you also have access to. They have no real advantage over you stealth-wise.
Title: Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
Post by: Iridni Ren on May 23, 2018, 01:34:52 PM
For years, shadowdancer has been considered the hardest PrC to get. The Community Council, with good reason, has had the concern that many of the people who apply for shadowdancer do so for the sole reason of getting a mechanical advantage through HiPS. Now that the goose is loose, we can expect two things to happen:

- First: The players that apply for Shadowdancer will do so mainly for the RP flavor of the class and because their storyline led them there. Mechanical advantages will be secondary at best.

- Second: The CC won't be as concerned about the PrC being taken for the wrong reasons, allowing the class to be more accessible to all players who really want it, as long as they learn the lore and have had the proper IC interactions leading to the PrC.

There's one big problem, however, with this thinking in that while individual parts of it may seem very reasonable, taken in its entirety I don't understand why the feat would be added.

FlyingLotus says the new feat is very mechanically different. Without addressing that, I will say instead it is either very mechanically different or it is not. Either you or he can be right, but you both cannot be because your own two points are predicated on there being little mechanical difference between the two.

If you are right, though, then the feat would seem to be saying, "Here is the mechanical advantage of the SD class without the need for the RP burden." It seems to me that this removes the incentive basis for applying for a Prestige Class (i.e., the reward for putting effort into all that RP).

Yes, virtue can be its own reward, and so can good RP, but it's pretty idealistic to think that desired behavior occurs without any reward for doing so, either in a game or a community. Why has the feat been denied for so long behind an application, if not because the mechanical advantage has been considered so significant?

Here is from the RP resources description of the class:

Quote
What people are getting tired of is otherwise seemingly normal people, suddenly disappearing and reappearing in plain sight in broad daylight without the slightest hint of how they did it - no mention of a shadows, no emotes, no facination with the dark, shadows - no thought at all into why they have taken this class. In other words, what people in general seem to loathe is the ''HiPs'ing spamin'. These are peeves going beyond one's opinion, but are subject of discussion in every single PW forums  some come across; its important to be aware of them.

Misconceptions and clarifications: Being a Shadowdancer has nothing to do with being a rogue - often believed or played as such,  any class can become a SD-  some are just much better at it than others. Rogues, rangers, and bards are the best at it, but a palemaster could become one pretty easily too, and likewise wizards/sorcerers could as well. Classes totally uninvolved with stealth could spend those cross-class skill points and become one.  A Shadow Dancer is not just someone with the supernatural ability of Hide in Plain Sight - he/she has a certain attachment to shadows - basically that's where their power comes from.

I'm not mechanically inclined enough to argue how significantly different this new feat is, but I have empathy why those in the prestige class would be upset that their signature move is being handed out to anyone who wants it--at a time when it's also being argued how to make the class stronger. Finally, if the ability was once considered so strong that it had to be very limited in who could get it, then why open it up like this?

If the app process was too restrictive (your second point), this removes not only the app process but the need to take any SD levels at all.