Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: ViktorYouFool on April 03, 2018, 03:24:21 AM

Title: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: ViktorYouFool on April 03, 2018, 03:24:21 AM
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Blade Thirst

Spell Level: Ranger 3

Innate Level: 3

School: Transmutation

Descriptor:

Component: Verbal, Somatic

Range: Touch

Area of Effect / Target: Creature or Melee Weapon

Duration: 1 Turn + 2 Rounds / Level

Additional Counter Spells:

Save: None

Spell Resistance: No

You empower the touched melee weapon with a +3 enhancement bonus.

I'd like to propose increasing the duration of Blade Thirst to be more in line with other weapon buffs.

Hawk's flight is a level 2 spell and is the ranged counterpart of Blade Thirst for rangers. It is a level 2 spell with a duration of 1 Hour +1 Turn/Level. Greater Magic Weapon is available to just about everyone except rangers, and it's also a level 3 spell. It also has a 1 hour + 1 Turn/level duration. It begins at a lower enhancement level, but ends at a higher.. and given that rangers cant cast their level 3 spells until level 11 at minimum, when Rangers get Blade Thirst it'll be at the same +3 bonus of a mage casting GMW.

Rangers don't have a whole lot of third-level spell slots to throw around -- only 1 until level 17, by default. Blade Thirst's present duration makes it so short as to only be useful for a single encounter, and compared to something like Aid which provides an ongoing bonus (another 1 hour +1 Turn/Level buff spell) it seems kind of useless. At that point, just cast aid and throw a magic varnish on it. Use silver/platinum or have a mage hang out with you.

Thematically, it's fine to have GMW effectively broken up into Hawks Flight and Blade Thirst -- it'd just be nice if the duration of the latter was long enough to actually be worth preparing.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Iridni Ren on April 03, 2018, 07:21:59 AM
The ranger class is already plenty strong and this is a ranger-only spell, so this change would benefit rangers exclusively.

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Hawk's flight is a level 2 spell and is the ranged counterpart of Blade Thirst for rangers.

Also a ranger-only spell, which means for ranged weapons, rangers get the equivalent of GMW at a lower circle than other classes. Rangers also have exclusive access to Bane Bow, again making them better at ranged weapons than other classes. Not surprising, given the class name  :)

But for balance sake and the class's flavor, they ought not be as effective at other types of melee.

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Greater Magic Weapon is available to just about everyone except rangers,

It is also not available to druids, the class most similar to rangers thematically. I would presume this omission for both class's is intentional. Both classes get Greater Magic Fang, which no other classes do.

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Thematically, it's fine to have GMW effectively broken up into Hawks Flight and Blade Thirst

It's effectively "broken up" for everyone in that two weapons (melee and bow) must be enchanted separately. The reason it's broken up into two distinct spells for rangers is that the class is clearly meant to be ranged weapon specialists and not quite as innately good with a melee weapon.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: ASymphony on April 03, 2018, 09:31:33 AM


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Also a ranger-only spell, which means for ranged weapons, rangers get the equivalent of GMW at a lower circle than other classes. Rangers also have exclusive access to Bane Bow, again making them better at ranged weapons than other classes. Not surprising, given the class name  :)

Getting a spell at a "lower circle" doesn't mean much for a ranger, since they do not get spellslots at the same progression as full caster classes and cap out at 4.

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But for balance sake and the class's flavor, they ought not be as effective at other types of melee.

Rangers are by no means an exclusively ranged class, this has little to do with their flavor.

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It is also not available to druids, the class most similar to rangers thematically. I would presume this omission for both class's is intentional. Both classes get Greater Magic Fang, which no other classes do.

Greater Magic Fang is a spell to buff animal companions in the case of ranger - aka the thing no one uses in serious combat

Quote
It's effectively "broken up" for everyone in that two weapons (melee and bow) must be enchanted separately. The reason it's broken up into two distinct spells for rangers is that the class is clearly meant to be ranged weapon specialists and not quite as innately good with a melee weapon.

More then arguable, in 3.5 P&P there is actually a distinct split between melee rangers and archery rangers, going so far as to getting access to an entirely separate feat tree (though nwn is obviously mostly 3.0, even with some changes on potm, where the class is a hybrid, it is clearly not meant to be just a ranged class)

Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: ViktorYouFool on April 03, 2018, 09:40:32 AM
I would hazard that the reason that druids and rangers get magic fang and no one else does is because no other classes are nature-based with animal companions.

It's effectively "broken up" for everyone in that two weapons (melee and bow) must be enchanted separately. The reason it's broken up into two distinct spells for rangers is that the class is clearly meant to be ranged weapon specialists and not quite as innately good with a melee weapon.

I'm going to have to object here. If they are "Clearly meant to be ranged weapon specialists" then why would the class default to custom two-weapon fighting feats instead of point blank shot and rapid fire? Equally, if the class was meant to be a ranged weapon specialist, then why would their default spell list include a melee weapon buff and only a melee weapon buff, and not a single spell for ranged combat?

The emphasis on ranged combat is a tweak made by the PoTM team, which is fine, but none of that changes that the spell in its current form is overwhelmingly meh.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Iridni Ren on April 03, 2018, 09:55:24 AM

Getting a spell at a "lower circle" doesn't mean much for a ranger, since they do not get spellslots at the same progression as full caster classes and cap out at 4.

Because rangers are not full casters, they're also not supposed to be as good at casting as full casters. Saying  the circle "doesn't mean much" for them is simply false as it implies that a ranger could take, say, 8th circle druid spells as 4th circle equivalents because a ranger can't cast them until she's 15th level anyway.

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Rangers are by no means an exclusively ranged class, this has little to do with their flavor.

I did not argue that rangers were exclusively ranged. I said their spell selection gives the class a flavor of being better with ranged weapons than several other melee classes, and therefore for balance that they are not quite as inherently gifted with non-ranged weapons appears to me clearly intentional.

Making this spell more powerful benefits only one class and a class that no one would seriously argue is underpowered at the moment.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: ASymphony on April 03, 2018, 10:09:21 AM


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Because rangers are not full casters, they're also not supposed to be as good at casting as full casters. Saying  the circle "doesn't mean much" for them is simply false as it implies that a ranger could take, say, 8th circle druid spells as 4th circle equivalents because a ranger can't cast them until she's 15th level anyway.

They... aren't? Changing this spell still doesn't even bring them close. Blade Thirst is at +3, which means nothing more then a +1 AB increase and a +3 damage increase, since the enhancement provided is not enough to get through even stoneskin. This is not a strong spell. My statement is utterly correct, since level progression is more important here, a ranger does not get a 3rd level slot before 12, a point where clerics/wizards have reached their 6th level spell. Their small selection of spells will never even get them close to a full caster and this is not even the argument, so I am not sure why you are trying to steer it into this direction. Rangers would still not be nearly as good at casting as other classes, of all spell casting classes, even compared with paladin who shares the same progression, they have by far the weakest selection. Buffing the duration for blade thirst only means that the spell might actually get occasionally get used instead of just tossing a varnish on it, which right now is literally always the better option.


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I did not argue that rangers were exclusively ranged. I said their spell selection gives the class a flavor of being better with ranged weapons than several other melee classes, and therefore for balance that they are not quite as inherently gifted with non-ranged weapons appears to me clearly intentional.
Making this spell more powerful benefits only one class and a class that no one would seriously argue is underpowered at the moment.
So do a variety of other changes implemented for various individual classes. Yes, blade thirst is a ranger exclusive spell. So what? Buffing UDF was cleric exclusive too and I would rank clerics as the second strongest class on the server.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on April 03, 2018, 10:46:07 AM
I don't imagine this'll be changed, because the spell is the same as the PnP spell.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Iridni Ren on April 03, 2018, 12:08:15 PM
I don't imagine this'll be changed, because the spell is the same as the PnP spell.

Actually, it appears on POTM it already lasts longer than PnP?

On the POTM wiki it says:

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Duration: 1 Turn + 2 Rounds / Level

Here (3.0) it's listed as 1 round/level

https://dndtools.net/spells/magic-of-faerun--20/blade-thirst--1738/

And on the NWN Wiki it says the spell was supposed to be 1 round/level but lasts for 2 rounds/level.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Blade_thirst
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: ViktorYouFool on April 03, 2018, 12:12:16 PM
I don't imagine this'll be changed, because the spell is the same as the PnP spell.

I always found that to be an underwhelming argument. NWN is an entirely different sort of environment than PnP D&D with a higher combat frequency and a relatively higher difficulty curve in terms of numbers used. Even still, it doesn't change the fact that the spell in its current form is fairly useless. By the time you get it, you'll generally have access to silver or platinum gilded weaponry, and for the occasion you need a magical weapon to hurt something else, varnishes are relatively easy to make and comparably cheap. There's no situation in which I could see taking this over Aid at present, except maybe if I was about to ambush someone for PvP and could rely on the encounter happening and ending within a very short window of time.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: MAB77 on April 03, 2018, 12:16:03 PM
It is true that weapon buff spells durations are inconsistent from one to another. Maybe they should all be brought to similar durations. We'll discuss the situation on the Dev side.

//Addedum: of course the power level of the granted bonus is to be taken into account too. A 1d4 flame weapon vs a +5 Blackstaff bonus is not in the same league obviously.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Legion XXI on April 03, 2018, 12:57:53 PM
It is true that weapon buff spells durations are inconsistent from one to another. Maybe they should all be brought to similar durations. We'll discuss the situation on the Dev side.

//Addedum: of course the power level of the granted bonus is to be taken into account too. A 1d4 flame weapon vs a +5 Blackstaff bonus is not in the same league obviously.

There's a lot to consider here aside from "oh look 2 spells that do the same thing."  For one, ranger is a FULL BAB CLASS

A FULL BAB CLASS

Similar to fighters and barbarians, for those still following me.

They get an ab every level, it's important that I say this a lot.  A sorc/wiz casting GMW only has 1/2 ab progression.  A bard or cleric casting gmw only gets 3/4 ab progression.  In fact, only the holy Paladin (who is notorious for broken and OP abilities offset by having to be a dumb paladin all the time) gets to self-buff gmw as a full bab class.

ON TOP of that, they get access to some cool things like free dual wield feats, stealth/trap skills (and trackless step), Hide in Plain Sight, animal empathy, evasion, keen senses and more.  The ranger spell list provides things that supplement these skills.  They can (on top of being full BAB) do things like give themselves stealth buffs, give themselves rams might, bulls strength, cats grace, aid and barkskin.  That's a massive boon.  That's amazing.  But as if that wasn't enough, they have a short term enhancement bonus buff that is only 1 ab/damage short of what a level 20 wizard could muster.  And they get it at level 12.  And still, some crazy how, ranger players have found a way to think this is an underpowered ability because it doesn't last as long as caster classes get theirs to last.  It really just seems like people are wanting the class to be able to do everything with no drawbacks.

The point I'm making here is that it's short, but not useless.  This is still an excellent "encounter" or PvP buff.  It's +3 self-buff on a full bab class.  The fact that rangers get spells at all is a massive boon, and it always blew my mind that people saw them as sub-par in the context of our server.  Other full bab classes have to bring a wizard along or do a decent amount of alchemy to muster that kind of enhancement bonus. 

If the duration is going to be extended, I think it should start out as a +1 EB and then scale up to +2 EB at 16 and +3 EB at 20.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Pav on April 03, 2018, 01:04:06 PM
I don't imagine this'll be changed, because the spell is the same as the PnP spell.

Changes have been made before out of PnP's scope for the sake of balance. I would argue that it's not done as often as it should be, but that's beside the point.

It is true that weapon buff spells durations are inconsistent from one to another. Maybe they should all be brought to similar durations. We'll discuss the situation on the Dev side.

//Addedum: of course the power level of the granted bonus is to be taken into account too. A 1d4 flame weapon vs a +5 Blackstaff bonus is not in the same league obviously.

There's a lot to consider here aside from "oh look 2 spells that do the same thing."  For one, ranger is a FULL BAB CLASS

A FULL BAB CLASS

Similar to fighters and barbarians, for those still following me.

They get an ab every level, it's important that I say this a lot.  A sorc/wiz casting GMW only has 1/2 ab progression.  A bard or cleric casting gmw only gets 3/4 ab progression.  In fact, only the holy Paladin (who is notorious for broken and OP abilities offset by having to be a dumb paladin all the time) gets to self-buff gmw as a full bab class.

ON TOP of that, they get access to some cool things like free dual wield feats, stealth/trap skills (and trackless step), Hide in Plain Sight, animal empathy, evasion, keen senses and more.  The ranger spell list provides things that supplement these skills.  They can (on top of being full BAB) do things like give themselves stealth buffs, give themselves rams might, bulls strength, cats grace, aid and barkskin.  That's a massive boon.  That's amazing.  But as if that wasn't enough, they have a short term enhancement bonus buff that is only 1 ab/damage short of what a level 20 wizard could muster.  And they get it at level 12.  And still, some crazy how, ranger players have found a way to think this is an underpowered ability because it doesn't last as long as caster classes get theirs to last.  It really just seems like people are wanting the class to be able to do everything with no drawbacks.

The point I'm making here is that it's short, but not useless.  This is still an excellent "encounter" or PvP buff.  It's +3 self-buff on a full bab class.  The fact that rangers get spells at all is a massive boon, and it always blew my mind that people saw them as sub-par in the context of our server.  Other full bab classes have to bring a wizard along or do a decent amount of alchemy to muster that kind of enhancement bonus. 

If the duration is going to be extended, I think it should start out as a +1 EB and then scale up to +2 EB at 16 and +3 EB at 20.

I would agree with the overall point, if the +2 EB would come in at 12 (consider that even with only getting the spell that level, items for that specific spellslot exist), and the +3 would not at all.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: MAB77 on April 03, 2018, 01:15:35 PM
To set the record straight I am not suggesting the spell duration should be increased. Fact is I find it properly balanced as is. What I proposed is for us Dev to do an audit of buffs durations. It doesn't mean anything will change. As Legion demonstrated in his excellent assessment, there are numerous factors to consider.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Philos on April 03, 2018, 02:51:27 PM
As someone who plays a ranger I don't think the duration should be increased but the spell itself should be changed. I'd rather not have a weaker clone of another spell, but rather, something that accentuate the various aspects of the Ranger class- notably favorite enemies. Something like 1d6 divine vs favored enemies with no enhancement bonus. You should be relying on other party members for that I'm.

The spell as it stands is flat useless. It sees no usage. Considering that Paladin's get gmw in the same spell slot at the same level, I'd like something of a different flavor.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Legion XXI on April 03, 2018, 03:15:53 PM
It's not "flat useless" though, and by claiming that you're just making it hard to take your claims seriously.  If you think it's underpowered or too short, that's fine, but every time anyone wants anything buffed they make the "it has no use at all" claim and it just takes credibility away from both your argument and the discussion at large.

It's a +3 weapon self buff on a class that already gets a lot of good combat buffs and full bab.

It lasts for 1 turn + 2 rounds per level.  At level 12, that's 3 minutes and 24 seconds of a free +3 on your weapon that you didn't need a mage or varnishes to do.  That's about 2 and a half minutes longer than most PvP encounters.  At level 20, it's a flat 5 minutes per cast.  Obviously if you wanted you could extend these.

Will it get you through an entire dungeon?  No, of course not.  But I also don't think it SHOULD.  Rangers get a million other useful things that other full bab classes don't get, and now we're asking for them to also get long duration self-buff enhancement bonus.  Druids are a more "caster" class in the nature family and even they can only get up to a +1 self-buff.  And they aren't even full bab.

This is an excellent pre-pvp buff.  It's going to get you through ethereal visage and give you a small ab/damage boost for a few minutes, which is all you'd need it for in that scenario.  If you need LONG TERM +3 or higher eb, you should find an actual caster class.

As to the suggestion to switch it to divide damage for favored enemies, that'd be a pretty hefty buff to this ability.  Divine damage is going to stack with everything (unlike the +3 enhancement, depending on your weapon) and it's very easy to cover your most common bases with favored enemy.  You get a favored enemy bonus feat once every 5 levels as a ranger.  So for example, you could take "Human, Elf, Undead, Shapeshifter, Outsider" and cover almost anything you come across. 
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Iridni Ren on April 03, 2018, 03:58:00 PM
The other thing is that there's always going to be a spell that is the weakest for that slot so that others are taken in preference. Every class has them.

If the spell is made stronger or replaced with something more powerful, then another spell will look useless (in comparison).
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Fungal Artillery on April 03, 2018, 05:59:59 PM
To set the record straight I am not suggesting the spell duration should be increased. Fact is I find it properly balanced as is. What I proposed is for us Dev to do an audit of buffs durations. It doesn't mean anything will change. As Legion demonstrated in his excellent assessment, there are numerous factors to consider.

I hope you guys won't make the mistake of shortening buff durations across the board. That would require a thorough overhaul of monster design and AC/Ab item distribution to be fair. Much of the content is designed in such a way that you have to have very specific buffs (that you know to put on) on your character or you will simply eat dirt. As much as I don't like how 3e handles buffs, buffs are all casters will prepare, even more so than now, if they have short durations, because most of the time they're not optional.

-----------

As for Blade Thirst, I can see the arguments on both sides. I don't think it's value should be discounted so easily though, it's something to keep prepped for a situation that might surprise you. Rangers are built in a way that lends itself toward a lot of indepence. Blade thirst as it is now is a tool for those solo moments. If you want it to be a party friendly spell, then it should definately do something else, like a self-only d6 physical damage buff lasting for a reasonable while. Such a buff should be on the character and not the weapon though, like divine favor, because I think you'll run in to conflicting damage sources with EB.
And that's if rangers can be trusted with more damage potential, which tbh I doubt the usual dex based one has in spades for a full BAB class. They have Bane Bow of course, but it's kind of like their Holy Sword spell that lets them shine for an encounter. Blade thirst could be the ranger version of Divine favor. A buff is easier to implement in nwn than something like Hunter's Mark, which is ranger's bread and butter in 5e.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Philos on April 03, 2018, 09:18:40 PM
It's a quality of life thing. I've said before I don't think it's needs it duration increase. But there is an opportunity to enchanted the class and make the spell something other than the worse version of gmw. Consider interesting ways to use the rangers favored enemies. Like a self only buff that increase ab against those enemies or an special damage type like d6  divine vs creature type.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Pav on April 03, 2018, 10:17:01 PM
As someone who's played a high level ranger, I never had reason to cast Blade Thirst over Aid and Neutralize Poison. I find the statement that, "calling something without use discredits your argument" to be ironically discrediting yourself. Sure, a lot of things have uses, but are those uses, at the end of the day, viable? In some examples, the answer is simply "no". The poison spells, for instance, and Blade Thirst, are ones that are a part of my own list.

I think it needs a change, in some way shape or form.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: MAB77 on April 04, 2018, 01:22:08 AM
I hope you guys won't make the mistake of shortening buff durations across the board. That would require a thorough overhaul of monster design and AC/Ab item distribution to be fair. Much of the content is designed in such a way that you have to have very specific buffs (that you know to put on) on your character or you will simply eat dirt. As much as I don't like how 3e handles buffs, buffs are all casters will prepare, even more so than now, if they have short durations, because most of the time they're not optional.

Nothing of the sort is planned. An audit would be only to assess if this or that feature is working as intended and is correctly balanced. It's good to hold some once in a while. But seeing we are much busy with a lot of other stuff this is unlikely to occur anytime soon, and we will not act on anything unless a glaring issue arises, which is not the case right now.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Iridni Ren on April 04, 2018, 10:25:48 AM
As someone who's played a high level ranger, I never had reason to cast Blade Thirst over Aid and Neutralize Poison. I find the statement that, "calling something without use discredits your argument" to be ironically discrediting yourself. Sure, a lot of things have uses, but are those uses, at the end of the day, viable? In some examples, the answer is simply "no". The poison spells, for instance, and Blade Thirst, are ones that are a part of my own list.

I think it needs a change, in some way shape or form.

As the spell applies to only one class, I will repeat that the actual question should be, "Does this (perhaps) weak spell make the class unviable?" Or at the minimum, is it a major handicap to the class?

Buffing a single-class spell is in fact buffing the class itself, and rangers are a very viable class currently. If Aid and Neutralize Poison are perfectly fine and usable alternatives to Blade Thirst for you, then it's not as though the short duration of Blade Thirst prevents you (or rangers in general) from having viable options.

Clerics have 33 (!) third level spells. Given that a 15th level cleric has only five third level spell slots, you can bet the vast majority of those Iridni is never going to have prepared. That doesn't mean all of those others need to be improved.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Pav on April 04, 2018, 11:05:38 AM
As someone who's played a high level ranger, I never had reason to cast Blade Thirst over Aid and Neutralize Poison. I find the statement that, "calling something without use discredits your argument" to be ironically discrediting yourself. Sure, a lot of things have uses, but are those uses, at the end of the day, viable? In some examples, the answer is simply "no". The poison spells, for instance, and Blade Thirst, are ones that are a part of my own list.

I think it needs a change, in some way shape or form.

As the spell applies to only one class, I will repeat that the actual question should be, "Does this (perhaps) weak spell make the class unviable?" Or at the minimum, is it a major handicap to the class?

Buffing a single-class spell is in fact buffing the class itself, and rangers are a very viable class currently. If Aid and Neutralize Poison are perfectly fine and usable alternatives to Blade Thirst for you, then it's not as though the short duration of Blade Thirst prevents you (or rangers in general) from having viable options.

Clerics have 33 (!) third level spells. Given that a 15th level cleric has only five third level spell slots, you can bet the vast majority of those Iridni is never going to have prepared. That doesn't mean all of those others need to be improved.

No, the spell does not make the class weaker. However, Rangers suffer alternately from the fact their spell lists are far shorter, and the slots they gain are also much less than those of primary caster classes.

A +2 EB boost at level 12 with an increased duration, as I have suggested in an example, is still negligible in most situations, but would serve the Ranger more or less better, depending on who you ask. The thread and its consequence, as in, changes to Blade Thirst, are not things that worry me as glaring balance issues, but rather as quality of life changes that would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: MAB77 on April 04, 2018, 11:43:48 AM
Honestly guys I think this debate is taking kind of a disproportionate size to the actual issue. It is still a spell, working as it's PnP variant, even with a longer duration, that grants a buffing bonus that can be useful. It can even be used jointly with an aid spell, and by a level 2 with the proper gear. Rangers hardly suffer from having it in their spell list, and to call it a quality of life issue is quite a stretch. The fact that the use of certain items or the presence of other buffers may limit its use, doesn't remove anything to the Ranger class. In that respect it is not worse than many other spells used only in specific circumstances.

Quality of ranger life would be better served by expending the list of spells. So instead of focusing on a spell that is not a problem, I invite you to suggest new rangers spells, from published d20 sources, that could be interesting.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: noah25 on April 04, 2018, 12:30:16 PM

"Greater Magic Fang is a spell to buff animal companions in the case of ranger - aka the thing no one uses in serious combat" Less applicable for rangers because of dual wielding, but GMF is great for druids because you can use it to fight unarmed.

So personally I love GMF and see no reason to hate on it.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: StellarNope on April 04, 2018, 03:49:53 PM
Honestly guys I think this debate is taking kind of a disproportionate size to the actual issue. It is still a spell, working as it's PnP variant, even with a longer duration, that grants a buffing bonus that can be useful. It can even be used jointly with an aid spell, and by a level 2 with the proper gear. Rangers hardly suffer from having it in their spell list, and to call it a quality of life issue is quite a stretch. The fact that the use of certain items or the presence of other buffers may limit its use, doesn't remove anything to the Ranger class. In that respect it is not worse than many other spells used only in specific circumstances.

Quality of ranger life would be better served by expending the list of spells. So instead of focusing on a spell that is not a problem, I invite you to suggest new rangers spells, from published d20 sources, that could be interesting.

Let's get the ball rolling.

Gravity Bow

School transmutation; Level ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1; Elemental School metal 1, void 1

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range personal
Targets you
Duration 1 minute/level (D)

DESCRIPTION

Gravity bow significantly increases the weight and density of arrows or bolts fired from your bow or crossbow the instant before they strike their target and then return them to normal a few moments later. Any arrow fired from a bow or crossbow you are carrying when the spell is cast deals damage as if one size larger than it actually is. For instance, an arrow fired from a Medium longbow normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if fired from a gravity bow (see table on this page for associated increase/decrease in damage due to size change). Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses your bow to make an attack the arrows deal damage as normal for their size.

Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage Medium Weapon Damage    Tiny Weapon Damage    Large Weapon Damage
1d2    —    1d3
1d3    1    1d4
1d4    1d2    1d6
1d6    1d3    1d8
1d8    1d4    2d6
1d10 1d6    2d8
1d12 1d8    3d6
2d4    1d4    2d6
2d6    1d8    3d6
2d8    1d10 3d8
2d10 2d6    4d8

From the Pathfinder Advanced Player Guide. Could be implemented like Darkfire/Sonic Weapon/Bless Weapon/Corrupt weapon. Since most rangers would use longbows I would recommend it just apply a 1d6-1d8 damage bonus to their current arrow stack, making it a viable low level alternative to buying player-made arrows.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gravity-bow (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gravity-bow)

Edit: There is also another variant of this spell for melee weapons.

Lead Blades

School transmutation; Level ranger 1

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range personal
Targets touch
Duration 1 minute/level (D)

DESCRIPTION

Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades (see table below). Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses one of your weapons to make an attack it deals damage as normal for its size.

Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage Medium Weapon Damage    Tiny Weapon Damage    Large Weapon Damage
1d2    —    1d3
1d3    1    1d4
1d4    1d2    1d6
1d6    1d3    1d8
1d8    1d4    2d6
1d10 1d6    2d8
1d12 1d8    3d6
2d4    1d4    2d6
2d6    1d8    3d6
2d8    1d10 3d8
2d10 2d6 4d8

It is from the same book, Pathfinder Advanced Player Guide. I'm not sure if such a spell could be made self-only. An alternative would be making it castable on allies and keeping its damage higher than the bless weapon spells, since it is physical damage and more likely to be resisted by DR.  Also since, as physical damage, if the weapon is already enchanted, or receives a magic weapon spell it can have issues with NWN overriding +physical damage of the same type as the base weapon.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Philos on April 05, 2018, 02:12:17 AM
Two spells

Clairvoyance/audience and Insight.

One of the traits of Rangers is being focused around detection. Despite that they have no access to spells that aid them is this. The two I suggested above are both appropriate as spot, listen and search are ranger skills. Clairvoyance/audience provides bonuses to both.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Pav on April 05, 2018, 06:50:19 AM
Quality of ranger life would be better served by expanding the list of spells.

No, I disagree. That has nothing to do with quality of life, or balance, as it only adds to variability which then needs to be addressed with QoL and balance in mind.

Two spells

Clairvoyance/audience and Insight.

One of the traits of Rangers is being focused around detection. Despite that they have no access to spells that aid them is this. The two I suggested above are both appropriate as spot, listen and search are ranger skills. Clairvoyance/audience provides bonuses to both.

I figure having both is a bit much. I would rather have it be just Insight, to compliment Search which is as valuable a trait as Spot/Listen for the classical Ranger.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: noah25 on April 05, 2018, 10:06:53 AM

Let's get the ball rolling.

Gravity Bow

School transmutation; Level ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1; Elemental School metal 1, void 1

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range personal
Targets you
Duration 1 minute/level (D)

DESCRIPTION

Gravity bow significantly increases the weight and density of arrows or bolts fired from your bow or crossbow the instant before they strike their target and then return them to normal a few moments later. Any arrow fired from a bow or crossbow you are carrying when the spell is cast deals damage as if one size larger than it actually is. For instance, an arrow fired from a Medium longbow normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if fired from a gravity bow (see table on this page for associated increase/decrease in damage due to size change). Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses your bow to make an attack the arrows deal damage as normal for their size.

Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage Medium Weapon Damage    Tiny Weapon Damage    Large Weapon Damage
1d2    —    1d3
1d3    1    1d4
1d4    1d2    1d6
1d6    1d3    1d8
1d8    1d4    2d6
1d10 1d6    2d8
1d12 1d8    3d6
2d4    1d4    2d6
2d6    1d8    3d6
2d8    1d10 3d8
2d10 2d6    4d8

From the Pathfinder Advanced Player Guide. Could be implemented like Darkfire/Sonic Weapon/Bless Weapon/Corrupt weapon. Since most rangers would use longbows I would recommend it just apply a 1d6-1d8 damage bonus to their current arrow stack, making it a viable low level alternative to buying player-made arrows.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gravity-bow (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gravity-bow)

Edit: There is also another variant of this spell for melee weapons.

Lead Blades

School transmutation; Level ranger 1

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range personal
Targets touch
Duration 1 minute/level (D)

DESCRIPTION

Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades (see table below). Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses one of your weapons to make an attack it deals damage as normal for its size.

Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage Medium Weapon Damage    Tiny Weapon Damage    Large Weapon Damage
1d2    —    1d3
1d3    1    1d4
1d4    1d2    1d6
1d6    1d3    1d8
1d8    1d4    2d6
1d10 1d6    2d8
1d12 1d8    3d6
2d4    1d4    2d6
2d6    1d8    3d6
2d8    1d10 3d8
2d10 2d6 4d8

It is from the same book, Pathfinder Advanced Player Guide. I'm not sure if such a spell could be made self-only. An alternative would be making it castable on allies and keeping its damage higher than the bless weapon spells, since it is physical damage and more likely to be resisted by DR.  Also since, as physical damage, if the weapon is already enchanted, or receives a magic weapon spell it can have issues with NWN overriding +physical damage of the same type as the base weapon.
[/quote]

This seems extremely overpowered to me, though I think insight and clairvoyance is a good idea. I've always thought rangers were the class who made the most sense to have insight.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Iridni Ren on April 05, 2018, 10:21:55 AM
Rangers are primarily martial. They're not supposed to be strong spell casters.

As long as this topic was about a specific spell, I've tried not to diverge too much from it, but if we're going to start talking about generally buffing ranger spells, I find the entire idea that rangers as a class need improving pretty strange.

From the class description:

Quote
Their martial skill is nearly the equal of the fighter, but they lack the latter's dedication to the craft of fighting. Instead, the ranger focuses his skills and training on a specific enemy - a type of creature he bears a vengeful grudge against and hunts above all others. Rangers often accept the role of protector, aiding those who live in or travel through the woods. His skills allow him to move quietly and stick to the shadows, especially in natural settings, and he also has special knowledge of certain types of creatures. Finally, an experienced ranger has such a tie to nature that he can actually draw on natural power to cast divine spells....

A ranger's spells are an after-thought.

Compare the fighter and ranger class. Both get full attack bonus, and both get the same number of hit points. A ranger is proficient in far more skills. A ranger gets twice as many skill points.

Rangers have better saves on POTM than fighters because they get two primary saves (reflex and fortitude), whereas fighters get only fortitude. Although fighters nominally get extra feats. the ranger receives specialized feats for free, and favored enemies--as Legion pointed out--can cover almost everything on the server, especially if one wants to build for PvP. Outdoors, they get Hide in Plain Sight!

Why would anyone want to be a fighter instead of a ranger?

On top of all that, spells. Their spells should be generally weak.

If they want clairvoyance/clairaudience, let them buy potions/scrolls or take up herbalism--just as a rogue (also a detect/sneak specialist) would have to. Rangers have detection skills built in, whereas spell casters must use precious spell slots that could be devoted to something else to have temporary access to these skills that rangers have all the time.

And while we're on the subject of spells, Awaken should be removed from rangers' spell selection. Druids (pure casters) get it at the 5th circle, whereas rangers get it at 4th. Why? Having and being able to buff an animal companion is much more essential to a druid (received at 1st level rather than 6th) than it is to a ranger.

Because rangers are such a strong class, many players have opted to build ranger PCs. As a result, support for making the ranger class even stronger is going to be numerous and vocal. But that rangers need unilateral strengthening versus other classes is not supportable.

TLDR: If rangers are weak, why are so many players building them?
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Phantasia on April 05, 2018, 10:27:44 AM
Why would anyone want to be a fighter instead of a ranger?

I heard of these things called bonus feats that seem to be pretty great, but that's just the word on the grape vine. I wouldn't know personally or anything.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: peps on April 05, 2018, 10:28:07 AM
Rangers are primarily martial. They're not supposed to be strong spell casters.

As long as this topic was about a specific spell, I've tried not to diverge too much from it, but if we're going to start talking about generally buffing ranger spells, I find the entire idea that rangers as a class need improving pretty strange.

From the class description:

Quote
Their martial skill is nearly the equal of the fighter, but they lack the latter's dedication to the craft of fighting. Instead, the ranger focuses his skills and training on a specific enemy - a type of creature he bears a vengeful grudge against and hunts above all others. Rangers often accept the role of protector, aiding those who live in or travel through the woods. His skills allow him to move quietly and stick to the shadows, especially in natural settings, and he also has special knowledge of certain types of creatures. Finally, an experienced ranger has such a tie to nature that he can actually draw on natural power to cast divine spells....

A ranger's spells are an after-thought.

Compare the fighter and ranger class. Both get full attack bonus, and both get the same number of hit points. A ranger is proficient in far more skills. A ranger gets twice as many skill points.

Rangers have better saves on POTM than fighters because they get two primary saves (reflex and fortitude), whereas fighters get only fortitude. Although fighters nominally get extra feats. the ranger receives specialized feats for free, and favored enemies--as Legion pointed out--can cover almost everything on the server, especially if one wants to build for PvP. Outdoors, they get Hide in Plain Sight!

Why would anyone want to be a fighter instead of a ranger?

On top of all that, spells. Their spells should be generally weak.

If they want clairvoyance/clairaudience, let them buy potions/scrolls or take up herbalism--just as a rogue (also a detect/sneak specialist) would have to. Rangers have detection skills built in, whereas spell casters must use precious spell slots that could be devoted to something else to have temporary access to these skills that rangers have all the time.

And while we're on the subject of spells, Awaken should be removed from rangers' spell selection. Druids (pure casters) get it at the 5th circle, whereas rangers get it at 4th. Why? Having and being able to buff an animal companion is much more essential to a druid (received at 1st level rather than 6th) than it is to a ranger.

Because rangers are such a strong class, many players have opted to build ranger PCs. As a result, support for making the ranger class even stronger is going to be numerous and vocal. But that rangers need unilateral strengthening versus other classes is not supportable.

TLDR: If rangers are weak, why are so many players building them?

I agreed up to the point you made about Awaken.

Awaken, a spell that's only ever accessible at level 14 for a Ranger. Druids have access to it at level 9.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Iridni Ren on April 05, 2018, 10:29:56 AM
Quote
I agreed up to the point you made about Awaken.

I got tired of purely playing defense :P
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Gates of Ishtar on April 05, 2018, 10:30:24 AM
Why would anyone want to be a fighter instead of a ranger?

I heard of these things called bonus feats that seem to be pretty great, but that's just the word on the grape vine. I wouldn't know personally or anything.

oof

ouch

owie
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: noah25 on April 05, 2018, 10:31:40 AM
I don't think rangers are weak and by no means think rangers need a huge power overhaul. My argument was that since the server lacks harper scouts, rangers are the most spot prone role-played class on the server. Hence, anything that bolsters their spot seems to make a lot of roleplay sense, opposed to giving them some overpowered combat buff, increasing a spell like blade thirsts duration, and instead just giving them a few more circumstantial spell casting options. On the note of fighters, I would argue fighters are better than rangers if you have one weapon, rangers are better if you want to dual wield. Fighters get more feats, get weapon specialization, need to dump scores in to less ability scores, and have less obligation to dump skill points in to non combat benefiting skills, such as animal empathy., and keep the weapon-master track open. So no, I certainly don't think rangers need to be made significantly more powerful, however,to argue that rangers are inherently more powerful than fighters in martial combat I think is overlooking some important variables.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Nemesis 24 on April 05, 2018, 11:56:55 AM
Well, there was a bit of a talk before for putting in viable alternative spells for ranger, and I had a look through the source books and a few caught my eye.  Some were overpowered as hell so I won't mention them, but I'll put a couple down at least, as possible 3rd level spells.

I should preface this by saying that I think Blade Thirst should stay as it is.  Ranger has huge advantages in very high stealth, good skill choices, full BAB, HiPS, Bane Bow, and Hawks flight.  It should be mentioned in a previous mention that Paladin was pointed out to be overpowered, and it is very strong - but it has no detection, and on a server that has no auto defeats of stealth this is quite potent a difference.  A ranger does not suffer from this deficit, and has an absolutely excellent skill selection that the paladin simply does not.

Regardless, putting down the spells.

Detect Favored Enemy
Lvl 3, Ranger 3, Divination
Components - V, S, DF
Casting time - 1 action (over 3 rounds)
Range - long (400ft, maybe too much)
Saving throw - None
Spell resistance - None
Target - self

Allows the ranger to concentrate and sense the presence of their favored enemies. Fluff text aside it works exactly like the paladins 'detect evil (cough chaos)' ability, doing a three round concentration check to detect favoured enemies nearby, instead of an alignment, which is quite a potent detection tool, limited by numbers of casts.

Embrace the Wild
Level - Ranger 3, Druid 3 (though this may be just made Ranger, potentially?)
Components - V, F
Cating time - 1 action
Range - Personal
Target - self
Duration - 10 mins a level (recommended 1 hour+1 turn per level)

This spell allows the caster to take on some of the aspects and nature of a wild animal.  You retain your form, but gain the natural and extraordinary senses of a chosen creature.
This spell would function much like a 'protection vs alignment' or 'polymorph' spell, granting a bonus of a type in terms of feat and skill bonus depending on the creature chosen.  Some possible ideas included would be -
Eagle - Spot +5, Search +5
Cat - Darkvision, Move Silent +5
Bear - Antagonise +5, Discipline +5
Wolf - Listen +5, Discipline +5

There are other animals and the values may vary, as the spell description itself doesn't give specifics (rather weirdly) and leaves things rather nebulous in terms of values, simply saying the player gains all the ranks of the creature.


The next spells are from the Book of Exalted Deeds, and are somewhat overly goodly aligned.  They can however be retweaked to be a little less overbearingly goody goody.  The four particulars were a level 1 spell, Eyes of the Avoral, a level 2 spell, Silvered Weapon, a level 3 spell, Inspired Aim, and lastly, Spear of Valarian, a lvl 4 spell.

Eyes of the Avoral (suggested renaming, Eyes of the Farseeing)
Transmutation
Level - Ranger 1, Druid 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 1 (suggest locking to ranger/druid)
Component - S
Casting time - 1 Standard action
Range - touch
Target - One creature
Duration - 10 minutes per level (suggest tweaking to shorter)
Saving through - will negates (harmless)
Spell resistance - yes (harmless)

A simple +8 bonus to spot, nothing more.


Silvered Weapon.
Transmutation
Level - Paladin 1, ranger 2 (suggest removing as paladin option, buffing as ranger option)
Components - V, S
Casting time - 1 standard action
Range - touch
Target - one weapon or projectile
Duration - 1 round/level (perhaps worth changing to be in line with bless weapon)
Saving throw - fort negates, object - harmless
Spell resistance - yes, object - harmless

This spell turns a weapon silvered weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.  My personal suggestion would be to bring this spell in line with bless weapon of a paladin, but make it for a ranger.  My suggestion would be to make it 1D6 divine or magical damage vs either shapechangers, or favored enemies, or magical beasts - or a combination of a pair of these.  Favored enemies would only work if it was a self cast spell, instead of another player.  If it was to be tweaked to be self cast, it'd make sense to make it favored enemies, but at that point it would be more viable as a lvl 2 or even a lvl 3 spell, due to the other bonuses that rangers get stacking on top.  This varies from the pen and paper, but then again a fair few of other spells do to.


Inspired Aim
Enchantment (Compulsion)
Level - Bard 4 (recommended against?) ranger 3
Components - V
Casting time - 1 standard action
Range - 40 ft (similar range to Sacred Haven, presumably)
Targets - Allies within 40ft of caster
Duration  - Concentration (recommend 1 hour +1 turn per level)
Saving through - Will negates (harmless)
Spell resistance - yes (harmless)

The spell inspires a +2 bonus on all ranged attacks made by everyone in the radius.  This would require having a ranged weapon equipped before casting, but it would probably also be useless with GMW.  My suggestion for a tweak is a flat +2 magic damage bonus to all of the rangers Favored enemies applied to all allies within range.  +2 isn't a great deal, but its flat damage, could be made a low chance of resist property, and it would be a large party buff as well.  Otherwise, a tweak of 1d4 would also work, perhaps moving the spell to lvl 4 range.

Spear of Valarian.
Transmutation
Level - Druid 5 (recommended locked out?), ranger 4
Components - V, S
Casting time - 1 Standard action
Range - Touch (Caster only?)
Target - One non magical weapon (suggest moving to any weapon)
Duration - 1 Round/level
Saving throw - for negates - object, harmless
Spell resistance - yes - object, harmless

Spear of Valarian, in the description, transforms a non magical weapon into a shimmering silver spear that acts as a +1 silvered bane weapon (magical beasts).  A suggested retweak of this would involve either a powerful bane effect on a melee weapon (excluding ranged deliberately) to create a stun effect or extra damage, or an effect similar to Mordenkainen's sword, creating a spear instead that defends and fights beside the caster.  To be fair, this one I was leery on, but I thought best to include anyway.


There were others I found.  One ridiculous spell gave a ranger +20 to hide and move silently as a lvl 3 spell.  I didn't include that one.  They don't need it.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: Pav on April 05, 2018, 12:37:50 PM
TLDR: If rangers are weak, why are so many players building them?

You'd think RP would be a factor on an RP server.

Otherwise, we are starting to lose focus on what this thread is about -- and that is an underwhelming duration on a spell. Whether or not it's deserved is a matter of the debate that we seemed to have left behind.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: noah25 on April 05, 2018, 02:19:44 PM
Honestly guys I think this debate is taking kind of a disproportionate size to the actual issue. It is still a spell, working as it's PnP variant, even with a longer duration, that grants a buffing bonus that can be useful. It can even be used jointly with an aid spell, and by a level 2 with the proper gear. Rangers hardly suffer from having it in their spell list, and to call it a quality of life issue is quite a stretch. The fact that the use of certain items or the presence of other buffers may limit its use, doesn't remove anything to the Ranger class. In that respect it is not worse than many other spells used only in specific circumstances.

Quality of ranger life would be better served by expending the list of spells. So instead of focusing on a spell that is not a problem, I invite you to suggest new rangers spells, from published d20 sources, that could be interesting.
This is where this discussion shifted, and frankly, in a way that seemed more productive to me. The vast majority seemed to agree that changing blade thirst wasn't the way to go. If used in the correct way, its already a potent spell, for a class that isn't built around its spell-casting ability. I think bringing it anywhere close to GMW or bless weapon in power would be a huge mistake.
Title: Re: Blade Thirst Duration
Post by: StellarNope on April 05, 2018, 04:54:10 PM
This seems extremely overpowered to me, though I think insight and clairvoyance is a good idea. I've always thought rangers were the class who made the most sense to have insight.

How are those overpowered? You can pretty safely ignore the tables I copy/pasted, as NWN doesn't handle things like small, medium, and large for an individual weapon type, so no longswords one-handed by Halflings or a large bastard sword that has to be wielded two-handed.

Basically what the spell would be would be the ranger giving their arrows +1d6 or 1d8 piercing damage for the spell's duration. Since it would not stack with the damage bonus of steel arrows it would merely be an alternative for a ranger to save money or time on fletching.

As for Lead Blades, I recommend 1d8 as physical damage is more easily resisted than elemental damage thanks to xx/+x DR that most things have, and the fact that a lot of creatures resist one of the three physical damage types, if not two in the form of 1-5/- towards that type. It also would not stack with the bonus from steel smithed weapons. Finally, unless the spell was implemented with three variations, slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning, it runs into that first problem more easily, though variants would allow it to stack with steel weapon damage bonus which may be undesirable from a balance perspective..

These are low level spells that would give a ranger options at low levels but would be less useful later on.