Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: foxtale on January 19, 2018, 07:56:38 PM
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When dungeoning recently and not having the luck to have a rogue available, my fellow player and I noticed it is quite dragging on the mood to crowbar at doors for longer periods of time, when you know it is possible for you to open them and no penalty given for failure. The topic has been discussed in the developement chat.
Noted contra arguments:
- promoting rogues
- consistency in take 20 rulings
- it serves as dungeon breaks for RP
My standing pro arguments:
- rogues should be promoted by them being fun, not by making alternative routes especially tedious
- it might be prudent to value enjoyment of our shared hobby over consistency. Enjoyment does not always mean fun, sad movies for example can be very enjoyable. Difficult, punishing games can be very enjoyable - I love them - without them always being being fun. I remain convinced, though, that mere waiting on chance to proceed is enjoyable for very few people
- it does not serve as a break for RP, as the crowbarring person has to tediously hit the crowbar quickslot and use it on the door in a set and exact pace. I did try to emote my characters frustration or how she attempts to solve each of the six, seven doors we had to pass, but I couldn't find time to type in the 6 second intervals. And while the mage of the group might find time for a potty break or whatever, the person solving the problem is stuck doing the chore. Dungeon breaks - in my opinion, should just be planned by the group. And dungeon RP should hopefully happen frequently, but by choice, not by force
Oh, and to be clear - only doors. With chest, there are apparant and important gameplay balance consequences for the use of random chance.
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I do like the idea of a take 20 for crowbars, perhaps it could work something similar to traps and locks? If there is combat or what-have-you you can't take 20. Perhaps even adding a possibility to break something if your strength is waay too low compared to the dc
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The Take 20 consistency point isn't really a contra-argument, actually; it's really an argument for change.
Because there's no down side to failing a crowbar on a door (unlike a chest), you ought to be able to Take 20. That's what the Take 20 rule exists for, to save you having to roll 20 times when there's no penalty for critical failure, and it's why Rogues are allowed to do so outside of combat.
So really, to be consistent, the system ought either be changed to allow Taking 20 for crowbars outside of combat, or some negative penalty upon critical failure (e.g. the crowbar breaks, or the user takes a point of STR damage, etc.)
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I like this idea!
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Yes, please.
I get the idea the rogues are... less fun on this server, due to the proclivity of sneak attack immune undead and constructs, but the way the systems have gone about promoting them is, how you say... poorly thought out.
At the moment, you really require a rogue to do anything past a relatively low-bar of character level. This is poorly thought out as it more or less holds everybody hostage if they want to adventure past a certain content point. "Nope, don't have that one guy, can't do anything other than sit around with our thumb up our bums today."
This is a bad idea, simply because NWN is a dying game that's playerbase is bleeding away. What are we going to do as that time "we can't adventure because not enough players for rogue population" steadily grows til it's near-impossible to get anything done past level 12 at any time on the clock? That is an eventuality, you know. Maybe a year from now, two, two and a half?
Dungeons and systems need reworked to think of the future. The systems shouldn't hold up an entire server because no one chose that one class.
It's bad enough one character (apparently, so I am told) cannot cross-class and employ items to be a "poor man's" rogue and enable adventure. Server health will fail when we get to the point no one can do much of anything when numbers dwindle and of those left, almost no one chose Rogue.
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I do like the idea of a take 20 for crowbars, perhaps it could work something similar to traps and locks? If there is combat or what-have-you you can't take 20. Perhaps even adding a possibility to break something if your strength is waay too low compared to the dc
I'm somewhat indifferent towards this because there has been plenty of discussion about rogues and what not, but if anything breaks it should be the crowbar.
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Yes, please.
I get the idea the rogues are... less fun on this server, due to the proclivity of sneak attack immune undead and constructs, but the way the systems have gone about promoting them is, how you say... poorly thought out.
At the moment, you really require a rogue to do anything past a relatively low-bar of character level. This is poorly thought out as it more or less holds everybody hostage if they want to adventure past a certain content point. "Nope, don't have that one guy, can't do anything other than sit around with our thumb up our bums today."
This is a bad idea, simply because NWN is a dying game that's playerbase is bleeding away. What are we going to do as that time "we can't adventure because not enough players for rogue population" steadily grows til it's near-impossible to get anything done past level 12 at any time on the clock? That is an eventuality, you know. Maybe a year from now, two, two and a half?
Dungeons and systems need reworked to think of the future. The systems shouldn't hold up an entire server because no one chose that one class.
It's bad enough one character (apparently, so I am told) cannot cross-class and employ items to be a "poor man's" rogue and enable adventure. Server health will fail when we get to the point no one can do much of anything when numbers dwindle and of those left, almost no one chose Rogue.
This is a lot of doom and gloom, and honestly just paints a way darker picture than what is actually the case. While every game eventually does come to an end, there's no indication that's imminent for NWN and you can't just start building all our systems to work on minimum possible personnel when we're regularly getting over 50 players at a time logged on the server.
I've been on a dungeon spree on my low level monk for like 3 RL days now, hitting all the usual low level areas. I've cross classed open lock and brought a crowbar as well for the party fighter to use. We didn't get help up due to a door once, and I was able to pick most stuff with just cross-classed OL and some basic buffs/gear.
Aside from that, you could say that most dungeons require that "one guy" or you can't do them. I can't tell you how many times I've been on a rogue and couldn't dungeon because me and my fighter friend couldn't find a wizard/cleric to buff us. Or I've been on a wizard and just couldn't find melee builds with high enough AC to hit dungeons worth doing. A lot of fighters/barbarians crossclass rogue and dump OL or Disable Trap, or Wizards cross class it and use spells to supplement their roll. A lot of the time, you can cruise right through a dungeon without a rogue, even after the refiring trap change. I've done it - my usual crew I dungeon with doesn't have a dedicated rogue and we've been leveling fine.
As far as the actual change itself, as long as it applies to only doors and not chests with loot inside, I think it would be neat. Not really necessary, but in the "quality of life" department and I think most people would enjoy it. Less raging at the RNG because you needed a 15 or higher and have rolled below 10 for the last 3 minutes. :lol:
I don't want the crowbar to break though. Those things are already 13 lbs each, and honestly that's just a frustration nobody wants to deal with. To have to "stock up" on 13 pound crowbars before every dungeon would get old fast. OR have the party high STR character not able to loot as much because he's weighed down with 100 lbs worth of crowbars just to get through doors.
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It's a simple quality of life request, not a rogue discussion.
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I think there's more rp when it's harder, more of a challenge. I enjoy the fact that I may not roll high enough and that I have to keep trying. I'd be disappointed in a change. Dungeons are already too easy to breeze though, which gives me a headache.
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It's a simple quality of life request, not a rogue discussion.
This. It'd be a great change IMO.
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Makes sense. Consistent with other checks in similar circumstances, too.
Elbow grease? :D
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I think there's more rp when it's harder, more of a challenge. I enjoy the fact that I may not roll high enough and that I have to keep trying. I'd be disappointed in a change. Dungeons are already too easy to breeze though, which gives me a headache.
I don't think that a riskless, tedious system engenders difficulty or challenge. Nobody crowbars in the middle of combat - there's nothing challenging about spamming the crowbar on a locked door twenty-plus times until you manage it, nothing more challenging than playing a game of cookie clicker.
I know it's happened, but I'd be hard pressed to bring to mind a time when a break in the Tergs to open a hallway of locked doors with the crowbar created meaningful RP, instead of just [smirks and cracks one-liners to pass the time]. There really are only so many ways to describe how you tackle a door with a crowbar before it becomes something you phone in.
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I think there's more rp when it's harder, more of a challenge. I enjoy the fact that I may not roll high enough and that I have to keep trying. I'd be disappointed in a change. Dungeons are already too easy to breeze though, which gives me a headache.
I don't think that a riskless, tedious system engenders difficulty or challenge. Nobody crowbars in the middle of combat - there's nothing challenging about spamming the crowbar on a locked door twenty-plus times until you manage it, nothing more challenging than playing a game of cookie clicker.
I know it's happened, but I'd be hard pressed to bring to mind a time when a break in the Tergs to open a hallway of locked doors with the crowbar created meaningful RP, instead of just [smirks and cracks one-liners to pass the time]. There really are only so many ways to describe how you tackle a door with a crowbar before it becomes something you phone in.
I am not so hard pressed, but that could just be me and how I rp. I'd be for making the dungeons harder, more tedious, and more complicate in order to keep them from being a walk in the park. It's irritating how they are now.
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Standing 5 minutes spamming crowbar On a door does not make the Dungeon harder
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Standing 5 minutes spamming crowbar On a door does not make the Dungeon harder
This, a million times.
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This is a lot of doom and gloom, and honestly just paints a way darker picture than what is actually the case. While every game eventually does come to an end, there's no indication that's imminent for NWN and you can't just start building all our systems to work on minimum possible personnel when we're regularly getting over 50 players at a time logged on the server...
Without going into your whole post, it's not "doom and gloom," it's reality. While at some times we might hit over 50 people (I've only seen it happen a time or two), the vast majority of the time I play? It's barely enough online to make me have to scroll my playerlist to see everyone. My concerns are not lofty or far off, they're now. They happen in most time zones. If you're the Average American in the Average Timezone, you probably rarely have problems, but if you're outside EST, you full well know the pain of not even being able to find someone to RP with because there's so few on - going on an adventure with any expectation of success? Forget it. (Just last night, 4 of us sat around trying to adventure without a rogue. Our dungeon picks were limited and yes... we got zero treasure because those chests just sat behind their little locked, trapped door, mocking us. We left empty-handed for all our trouble and expendables used.)
It's just an inevitability. Trying to make rogues "feel special" has created policy which at this point has hamstrung the bulk of everything past midnight EST. One sad day not far off, the state of NWN1 will be at the point that Ravenloft won't even be able to field anything at all in terms of dungeon playability if nothing changes with the times.
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The way we see it, making people group up and encouraging them to have parties makes it more likely the server will persist, not less. Obviously, everyone experiences some frustrating moments when they want to dungeon and can't because they don't have the ideal configuration. But you can always RP when you're not dungeoning, and when you do go dungeoning, making you perhaps take along a player who you don't know as well leads to them feeling more engaged, involved, and desiring to stay. We don't intend to change those priorities at this time; you're more than entitled to your opinion, but more than a decade of experience has led us to the current policy. Incidentally, our playercounts have been more or less consistent for that entire time.
As to the actual change, I'm not against it. We'll discuss it internally.
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I still soloing fine with a crowbar. Some loots got destroyed though.
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I (perhaps weirdly) like the way crowbars work now and gave my reasons in Discord. I even like watching the animation as the wielder struggles and appears to curse at the door. That said, I agree that this is a quality-of-life issue almost completely separate from the "get a rogue" debate.
The question is whether the current way they work has a worthwhile in-game effect or is it pure tedium. Because I don't solo and generally prefer a slower pace in dungeons, I like them. But I can understand how they irritate soloists or those otherwise in a hurry.
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I have never been in a group that has successfully completed the Invidian camp due to the crowbar doors. My groups either can't get in, or, they keep trying to crowbar the door and get bad rolls so many times in a row that the group breaks up. I would like to see that dungeon sometime. :(
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I have never been in a group that has successfully completed the Invidian camp due to the crowbar doors. My groups either can't get in, or, they keep trying to crowbar the door and get bad rolls so many times in a row that the group breaks up. I would like to see that dungeon sometime. :(
This is why you need to bring Dragon Disciples. I never struggle with those doors.
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Returning player here who rejoined Ravenloft after buying the NWN Enhanced Edition. Just bumping this thread because I was reading the forums relearning the systems on the server, and I think this would be a nice QOL improvement as someone who's used bulls strength on the fighter and waited 5 minutes before opening the door in the low level crypts on more than one occasion.
tldr: Old player returning, bumping thread wondering if a decision was made.
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As long as it only applies to the following circumstances, I am in favor of the Take 20 check for crowbarring doors:
1. It only applies to doors, nothing else.
2. You must use a crowbar.
3. You only get to "take 20" when you are not in combat.
If those three requirements are maintained, then I think this is a good idea.
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Am I the only one who instead of dungeons, is thinking of places like Vallaki gates and garda office, the jail, the wall entraces...
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Indeed. I recall one DM event involving Toben the Many where I actually rolled a natural 20 on first attempt to open Vallaki's city gate much to said DM's surprise whom had little time to prepare for the PC cavalry.
I was thanked by the garda for saving the city then fined 1000 gp for breaking the door and the law! :mrgreen:
I can think of a wide array of circumstances where an automatic take 20 on crowbars would just ruin the experience, be it in DM, PvP or even just dungeoneering events. Crowbars should never trump the skills of a good locksmith, nor the need to form a balanced party.
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..its not a good lock smith when they get to take 20 too. Its only fair that crowbars work the same so your not required to find a rogue. While a DM can disallow a take 20 and tell you to roll. That makes the skills balanced, not rogues trumping >every other class over skill ranks with take 20.
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Balance has to be looked at overall. Rogues should trump every other class in picking locks because they have big disadvantages in other aspects of the game.
FWIW, I use a crowbar. A lot.
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It's not exactly trumping. Crowbar is five free ranks in open lock. That is either a two levels worth of skills or two feats.
13 lbs seems a small price to pay for that. I'm not terribly against it mind you, for anything past starting areas real skill investment is required. As it should be, I disagree with you there. I do think that rogues and skill investment should in fact trump in these cases. And it simply cuts down a huge time sink waiting on a million rolls for the 20.
But only in the scenarios mentioned above... No combat, no chests
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Its not exactly "5 free ranks", Strength DCs are MUCH less then pick lock DCs.
I think take 20 on doors would be okay, but there is a 'critical failure' result for chests... so don't think chests should get them. Fail a pick lock, u just fail. fail a Strength by enough, you break something.
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Balance has to be looked at overall. Rogues should trump every other class in picking locks because they have big disadvantages in other aspects of the game.
This is a common msiconception. Wizards and Trickery Clerics get Knock for a reason.
What those classes don't get are the rest of the complementary skills that Rogue get, e.g. Disable Device, Set Trap, Use Magical Device, and the Skill points to invest in Search.
Now bear in mind that this is there for a reason. The idea that one class should be indispensable for parties makes gathering such parties a pain. Hence why we've got two crafts that are mostly dedicated to providing the kind of buffs normally reserved for Wizards and Clerics, so that people who can't find a Wizard or a Cleric can at least operate with substitutes.
I just think the whole thing is inconsistent. I'll say what I said before: it would make sense that you can't take 20 when failure has a consequence. That's why it makes sense that you can't take 20 on bashing open chests: if you fail, you break something. Thus it would make sense that you can't take 20 when bashing doors if failure meant something. Otherwise, it's purely a waste of time; which is what the Take 20 rule exists to prevent.
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Yeah I agree with you there.
I wouldn't mind an arbitrary upper limit on the DC it will work with. IDK, DC 26 or 28, something like that.
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Balance has to be looked at overall. Rogues should trump every other class in picking locks because they have big disadvantages in other aspects of the game.
This is a common msiconception. Wizards and Trickery Clerics get Knock for a reason.
I'm not sure what the "this" refers to in my statement, but the first part is an opinion ("should"). You can disagree with my opinion, but I wasn't asserting it as fact. (The factual part--that rogues have disadvantages in certain parts of the game--I assume you agree with.)
Knock doesn't function on the server the way it does in vanilla NWN because of this same idea of overall balance: for example, that so many creatures are immune to sneak attacks.
Anyway, I was replying to Lucadia's implication that it is inherently unfair for rogues to reign supreme in this area over other classes, when I don't see it as unfair. Even though I play a cleric, I think making Knock obliterate the need for a rogue to deal with locks would be just as unfair as making easily obtainable potions to replace various cleric functions.
I'll say what I said before: it would make sense that you can't take 20 when failure has a consequence.
I agree with you completely. But most of the time when I'm using a crowbar, failure does have consequences. My buffs are wearing out and sometimes I'm breaking things. Do I get frustrated? Yes...but I'm usually soloing when this happens, which I understand to be the intent. Crowbars let me sort of make do without a rogue, but not be quite as effective.
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[edit] didn't notice the NEXT page [/fin]
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I like the premise and support take 20 for a crowbar.
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I like the premise and support take 20 for a crowbar.
+1
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I like the premise and support take 20 for a crowbar.
Without getting into Rogues and OL, I think take 20 on crowbarring open doors would be a welcome quality of life improvement. I wouldn't extend that ability to chests though.
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I did consider that after posting. It definitely should not on chests.
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The title of the thread is as specific as it is for a reason, this was never meant to be about chests where the critical failure will destroy loot as a deserved compromise for not having a rogue.
I am not terribly invested in arguing minor QoL improvements forever on the internet - though I do feel the need to come back now that the spark is struck to get a scope of the priorities of fellow players when it comes to their enjoyment. I think you argued some fair cases in which crowbarring doors would have consequences, like this one:
Am I the only one who instead of dungeons, is thinking of places like Vallaki gates and garda office, the jail, the wall entraces...
But when we argue that, we have to consider how often that really happens, how often it really happens to matter and whether that weights more than the waste of time we put ourselves through when using a tool that was really meant to make life on the server more bearable than the base game.
On top of that, rogues get to take 20 when they are chased and try to open a door as well, unless they have very recently been in combat stance. Given that they do not take 20 in combat, we can assume that they do not get to do this because they are just that skilled at opening locks, but because the NWN coders wanted to afford them some QoL as well when they were not under duress.
So what do we do with this? We have to admit that sometimes it just comes down to courtesy and respectful play. In DM events, the DM can ask the player to make a manual roll, in PvP we are expected to be respectful to begin with, even if that's not always the case in practice. And to add to that: Once the door is open there might be a transition behind it - and when it comes to running over a transition during a chase, some people have the chance to catch up or escape by virtue of their internet connection and speed of their hard drive. This is not a matter that will ever be consistent beyond the respect we have for each other and the setting. I have chosen to let many players escape my PvP by virtue of what would be more fun for everyone. Should I stop doing that and fine tune everything to the fake sense of fairness the engine brings us? I respect the engine. I am very glad it does the rough stuff for us, but I do not believe topics like this are worth splitting so many hairs over. Either the server wants it or not, by show of hands.
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Sure, why not. We’ll add Take 20 support when using a crowbar outside combat.
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Sure, why not. We’ll add Take 20 support when using a crowbar outside combat.
REJOICING
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:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: