Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: EO on December 11, 2017, 09:22:29 PM
-
A few more feats for the upcoming hak update; I don't think I'll be adding more at this point.
General Feats:
Disciplined Mind
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: None.
Specifics: The character gains a +1 bonus to all Will saving throws and +2 to all Concentration checks.
Use: Automatic.
Filth Eater
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Resist Disease, Resist Poison.
Specifics: The character gains a +4 bonus on Fortitude saving throws to resist the effects of disease and poison.
Use: Automatic.
Heat Endurance
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Fort save bonus +2.
Specifics: The character gains +2 on saving throws against fire effects. He can exist comfortably in temperatures up to 50 degrees without having to make dehydration checks.
Use: Automatic.
Cold Endurance
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Fort save bonus +2.
Specifics: The character gains +2 on saving throws against cold effects. He can exist comfortably in temperatures down to -20 degrees without taking cold damage.
Use: Automatic.
Mercantile Aptitude
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Appraise 5+.
Required for: Experienced Haggler
Specifics: The character has a natural aptitude to negotiate and trade. When selling to merchants, the character receives 5% more. He also pays 5% less when buying from merchants. The maximum price offered by merchants increases by 5%.
Use: Automatic.
Experienced Haggler
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Mercantile Aptitude, Appraise 10+.
Required for: Expert Trader
Specifics: The character's well honed haggling skills allow him to favorably negociate with merchants. When selling to merchants, the character receives 10% more. He also pays 10% less when buying from merchants. The maximum price offered by merchants increases by 10%.
Use: Automatic.
Seasoned Trader
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Experienced Haggler, Appraise 15+.
Specifics: The character is renowned as a seasoned trader. When selling to merchants, the character receives 15% more. He also pays 15% less when buying from merchants. The maximum price offered by merchants increases by 15%.
Use: Automatic.
Sterling Reputation
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Cha 12+.
Specifics: The character's sterling reputation precedes him. His global outcast rating is lowered by 2.
Use: Automatic.
Unremarkable
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Cha 9+, Can only take this feat at 2nd-level.
Specifics: The character has an average look and is otherwise unremarkable. As long as his Charisma remains between 9 and 11, his outcast rating reputation dissipates at a faster rate and NPCs are less likely to recognize him if they see him again.
Use: Automatic
Urban Stealth
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Lore 5+, Move Silently 5+.
Specifics: The character is particularly adept at moving quietly and unnoticed through the city. The character gains a +3 bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks in urban areas. This bonus applies only when the character is outside since it relies on his knowledge of urban environments.
Use: Automatic.
Expert Dungeoneer
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Lore 8+, Disable Trap 8+.
Specifics: The character's experience and study of dungeons have given him insight on common trapsetting techniques. He receives a +4 bonus on saving throws made against the effects of traps.
Use: Automatic.
Racial Feats:
Battle Hardened
Type of Feat: Race
Prerequisite: Dwarf, Base Attack Bonus +4.
Specifics: The character's extensive battle experience has left him incredibly calm and composed, even in the heat of battle. He receives a +4 bonus on saving throws against fear effects and +2 on all Discipline checks.
Use: Automatic.
Death's Blood
Type of Feat: Race
Prerequisite: Elf or Half Elf.
Specifics: The character receives a +4 bonus on saving throws against death magic and negative energy.
Use: Automatic.
Nimble
Type of Feat: Race
Prerequisite: Halfling.
Specifics: The character receives a +2 bonus on reflex saving throws and on all Move Silently and Tumble checks.
Use: Automatic.
Piercing Sight
Type of Feat: Race
Prerequisite: Gnome.
Specifics: The character receives a +4 bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Use: Automatic.
Fury of Stone
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Barbarian Rage, Darkvision.
Specifics: While underground, the character's rage lasts for twice as long as it normally would. However, when above ground, the duration of the character's rage is halved.
Use: Automatic.
Channeled Rage
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Barbarian Rage, Caliban or Half Orc.
Specifics: The barbarian can focus his rage to counter charms and compulsions. During rage, he adds his new Strength bonus to all Will saving throws.
Use: Automatic.
Menacing Demeanor
Type of Feat: Race
Prerequisite: Caliban, Orc blood or Orc subtype.
Specifics: The character can tap into his savage heritage to improve his intimidating techniques. He gains a +4 bonus on all Antagonize checks.
Use: Automatic.
Ranger/Druid:
Shared Fury
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Animal Empathy 5+, Barbarian Rage or Wolverine's Rage, Animal Companion.
Specifics: When the character rages, his animal companion gains the same benefits and penalties from rage that he does, but only if they are within 5 meters from one another.
Use: Automatic.
Savage Empathy
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisites: Animal Empathy.
Specifics: The character is able to tame beasts like he would normal animals. The character no longer suffers a -4 penalty on his Animal Empathy checks to influence beasts and magical beasts.
Use: Automatic.
Vermin Trainer
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisites: Animal Empathy, Darkvision.
Specifics: The character is used to the creatures living in the dark. He can use Animal Empathy on vermin and insects as if they were animals.
Use: Automatic.
Elemental Essence
Type of Feat: Class
Prerequisite: Druid level 6, Wild Shape.
Specifics: The druid can channel the power of the four elements from the natural world around him. He may spend one daily use of his wild shape ability to surround his limbs and weapons with an aura of the chosen energy. While this effect is active, each attack he makes deals an extra 1d6 points of the appropriate type of energy damage. Additionally, the druid gains resistance 5 against that type of energy. These effects last for a number of turns equal to his druid level (up to a maximum of 10).
Use: Selected.
Primeval Wild Shape
Type of Feat: Class
Prerequisite: Wild Shape, Cold Endurance.
Specifics: The druid's wild shape forms are stronger than normal. When he assumes a wild shape form, he draws energy from the primeval form of the creature that existed in the ancient past during a vast ice age. Doing so grants the new form a +2 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to its Dodge armor, and resistance 10 to cold damage.
Use: Automatic.
Hawk's Vision
Type of Feat: Class
Prerequisite: Wild Shape, Spot 4+ ranks.
Specifics: The druid can improve his visual acuity. He may spend one of his wild shape uses to gain Point Blank Shot and a +8 bonus to Spot for a number of hours equal to his druid level.
Use: Selected.
Fighters:
Armor Skin
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Fighter 17+, Con 15+, Toughness.
Specifics: The character gains a natural +2 bonus to armor class.
Use: Automatic.
Greater Weapon Focus
Type of Feat: Combat
Prerequisite: Fighter 13+, Weapon Focus in the chosen weapon group.
Specifics: The character gains a +2 bonus to all attack rolls with the chosen weapon in addition to the +1 bonus given by Weapon Focus.
Use: Automatic.
Superior Initiative
Type of Feat: Combat
Prerequisite: Fighter 10+, Dex 15+, base attack bonus 12+, Improved Initiative.
Specifics: The character gains a +8 bonus on initiative checks.
Use: Automatic.
Overwhelming Critical
Type of Feat: Combat
Prerequisite: Fighter 17+, Str 18+, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (in chosen weapon) and Power Attack.
Specifics: When using the weapon chosen, the character deals +2d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, it's +3d6, and if the multiplier is x4, +4d6.
Use: Automatic.
Rallying Cry
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Fighter 10+, Cha 12+, Influence 4+.
Specifics: Three times per day, the character can utter a powerful shout that gives all allies (including himself) within 60 feet a +1 bonus to attack and a 20% bonus to movement speed for one turn and a number of rounds equal to half his character's level + his Charisma bonus.
Use: Selected.
Inspire Competence
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Fighter 12+, Cha 12+, Influence 6+.
Specifics: Once per day, the character can inspire his allies in combat. All affected creatures (including himself) within 60 feet gain a +1 bonus to Attack and Damage, and a +2 bonus against mind-affecting effects for one turn and a number of turns equal to half his character's level + his Charisma bonus.
Use: Selected.
Final Stand
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Fighter 16+, Cha 12+, Influence 8+.
Specifics: Once per day, the character can inspire his allies to a heroic effort. Each ally (including himself) within 30 feet gains 2d10 hitpoints for one turn and a number of turns equal to half his character's level + his Charisma bonus.
Use: Selected.
Monks:
Unorthodox Flurry
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Flurry of Blows.
Specifics: The character is trained in a monastic tradition that uses nontraditional weapons. He can use any light melee weapon for his flurry of blows, not just Kamas.
Note: A light weapon is one that is at least one size category smaller than its wielder.
Use: Automatic
Axiomatic Strike
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Stunning Fist, Monk level 10+.
Specifics: The character may spend one of his Stunning Fist attempts to add 2d6 bludgeoning damage to his unarmed attacks versus chaotic enemies for one turn and a number of rounds equal to his Wisdom bonus.
Use: Selected.
Combat:
Greater Two Weapon Defense
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Dex 19+, Improved Two Weapon Defense, Base Attack Bonus +11.
Specifics: When wielding two weapons, the character gains a +3 shield bonus to his Armor Class.
Use: Automatic
Bonetti's Defense
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Expertise, Dex 12+, Int 13+
Specifics: This character has chosen to fight with a one-handed weapon and no shield in the style of the great Borcan fencing master Aldo Bonetti. When fighting with only a one-handed weapon equipped, the character gains a +1 Dodge bonus to his Armor Class.
Use: Automatic
Thibault's Geometry
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Bonetti's Defense, Dex 14+, Int 13+, Base Attack Bonus +6
Specifics: This character has further practiced the art of fighting without a weapon or shield in the off hand. When fighting with only a one-handed weapon equipped, the character gains a +2 Dodge bonus to his Armor Class.
Use: Automatic
Agrippa's Fundamental Guards
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Thibault's Geometry, Dex 16+, Int 14+, Base Attack Bonus +11
Specifics: This character can employ a blade as skillfully in defense as in attack. When fighting with only a one-handed weapon equipped, the character gains a +3 Dodge bonus to his Armor Class.
Use: Automatic
Crossbow Sniper
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Weapon focus with light or heavy crossbow, Base attack bonus +1
Specifics: The character is skilled in lining up accurate, deadly shots with his crossbow. Perhaps he adds custom-made sights to his weapon, or he has learned to maximize the stability and precision the weapon offers. When using a crossbow for which he has the Weapon Focus feat, he gains a damage bonus equal to half his Dexterity bonus.
Use: Automatic
Shield Parry
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Dex 15+.
Specifics: The character has learnt how to better parry blows with a shield. When fighting with a shield, for every five skill points in Parry the character's armor class is improved by +1 (up to a maximum of +5).
Use: Automatic.
Turn Undead:
Sacred Vitality
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Turn Undead.
Specifics: The character can channel positive energy to gain protection from damage to his abilities or his life force. He may spend one of his turn undead attempts to gain immunity to ability and level drain for a number of turns equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum of 1 turn).
Use: Selected.
Sacred Boost
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Turn Undead, Sacred Purification, Heal 12+.
Specifics: The character can channel positive energy to increase the power of cure wounds spells cast near him. He may spend two of his turn undead attempts to place an aura of positive energy upon each creature (including himself) within 60 feet. Any cure wounds spell cast on one of these creatures is automatically maximized, with no adjustment to the spell's level or casting time, for a number of turns equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum of 1 turn).
Use: Selected. This ability only works for non-evil characters.
Profane Boost
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Turn Undead, Profane Lifeleech, Antagonize 6+.
Specifics: The character can channel negative energy to increase the power of inflict wounds spells cast near him. He may spend two of his turn undead attempts to place an aura of negative energy upon each creature (including himself) within 60 feet. Any inflict wounds spell cast on one of these creatures is automatically maximized, with no adjustment to the spell's level or casting time, for a number of turns equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum of 1 turn).
Use: Selected. This ability only works for evil characters.
Paladin:
Expanded Aura of Courage
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Inspire Courage, Influence 8+.
Specifics: The paladin's inspire courage ability protects more allies than normal. His aura now affects allies within 60 feet of him and grants them a +6 bonus to Will saving throws versus fear.
Use: Automatic.
Shield Maiden's Grace
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Divine Grace, Turn Undead.
Specifics: The paladin can channel energy to grant grace and spiritual calm to his companions. He may spend one of his turn undead attempts to grant a touched creature the protection of his divine grace. The creature applies the paladin's Charisma modifier at the time it was touched as a bonus on all saving throws for one turn and a number of rounds equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier (minimum of 1 round). The bonus from this ability does not stack with a paladin's divine grace.
Use: Selected.
Summoning:
Beckon the Frozen
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (Conjuration).
Specifics: Creatures the character summons are infused with cold energy. Each creature the character conjures with a summon spell gains immunity to cold damage and deals an additional 1d6 points of cold damage on its attacks. Creatures with the fire subtype can never be enhanced in this manner.
Use: Automatic.
Necromantic Presence
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (Necromancy).
Required For: Necromantic Might.
Specifics: Undead the character controls are harder to turn. Each undead the character raises or creates gains gains +4 Turn Resistance.
Use: Automatic.
Necromantic Might
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (Necromancy), Necromantic Presence.
Specifics: Undead the character controls are more powerful. Each undead the character raises or creates gains a +2 enhancement bonus on their attack rolls and saving throws.
Use: Automatic.
-
RANGERS GET TO DO WHAT NOW????
My next char will be a ranger. I need this. This is beautiful. This is wonderful.
-
I really like all these feats! Some of them will really make a world of difference for certain builds. I do have some comments:
Fighters:
Greater Weapon Focus
Type of Feat: Combat
Prerequisite: Must be a fighter, base attack bonus +13, Weapon Focus in the chosen weapon group.
Specifics: The character gains a +2 bonus to all attack rolls with the chosen weapon in addition to the +1 bonus given by Weapon Focus.
Use: Automatic.
In NWN2 and the 3.5 SRD, this feat only adds another +1 and has a pre-requisite of Fighter level 8. I don't object to the feat being stronger, but would you consider adding this pre-req? This is quite a potent feat that I don't think should be available to any Fighter dip; Fighter 8 sounds like a fair commitment to earn this Feat.
This pre-req would at least give a pure Fighter access to this Feat earlier than most Weapon Master builds. It would be nice for pure Fighters to have some early strengths compared to WM builds.
(References: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Weapon_Focus ; http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Greater_Weapon_Focus )
Overwhelming Critical
Type of Feat: Combat
Prerequisite: Must be a fighter, Str 18+, base attack bonus +17, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (in chosen weapon) and Power Attack.
Specifics: When using the weapon chosen, the character deals +2d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, it's +3d6, and if the multiplier is x4, +4d6.
Use: Automatic.
This feat is also more powerful than the NWN2 / 3.5 SRD versions (which do 1d6 damage less across the board). This seems a little more questionable since it really looks like a crazily good choice for Weapon Masters, a class that I don't really think needs more help in the damage-dealing department or in popularity. Yes, it costs a lot of Feats -- which will probably keep it out of reach of Rogue/Fighter/WM builds. But it will be a no-brainer for Fighter/Weapon Masters.
If the purpose is not to boost Weapon Masters too much, could we instead gate the Feat through a base class Pre-req, e.g. Barbarian 8 OR Fighter 8 OR Paladin 8 OR Ranger 8?
At least, that's my first impressions looking at those two feats.
-
This feat is also more powerful than the NWN2 / 3.5 SRD versions (which do 1d6 damage less across the board). This seems a little more questionable since it really looks like a crazily good choice for Weapon Masters, a class that I don't really think needs more help in the damage-dealing department or in popularity. Yes, it costs a lot of Feats -- which will probably keep it out of reach of Rogue/Fighter/WM builds. But it will be a no-brainer for Fighter/Weapon Masters.
It's gated to Fighter 17.
-
Oh, "must be a Fighter" means "must be a pure Fighter"? Then ignore my comments above :D
-
Oh, "must be a Fighter" means "must be a pure Fighter"? Then ignore my comments above :D
Yeah, it's worded exactly like Weapon Specialization:
Weapon Specialization
Type of Feat: Special
Prerequisite: Must be a fighter, base attack bonus +4, Weapon Focus in the chosen weapon group.
Specifics: A character with this feat has trained especially hard with a specific weapon group, and gains a +2 damage bonus when using these weapons in combat.
Use: This feat may be selected multiple times, but the effects do not stack. It applies to a new weapon in each case.
Special: Halflings and Gnomes are small creatures and as such they can never use the following Large weapons: dire mace, two-bladed sword, double axe, greataxe, greatsword, halberd, heavy flail, and scythe.
-
A few more feats for the upcoming hak update; I don't think I'll be adding more at this point.
Bonetti's Defense
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse, Dex 15+
Specifics: This character has chosen to fight with a one-handed weapon and no shield in the style of the great Borcan fencing master Aldo Bonetti. When fighting with only a one-handed weapon equipped, the character gains a +1 Dodge bonus to his Armor Class.
Use: Automatic
Thibault's Geometry
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Bonetti's Defense, Dex 17+, Base Attack Bonus +6
Specifics: This character has further practiced the art of fighting without a weapon or shield in the off hand. When fighting with only a one-handed weapon equipped, the character gains a +2 Dodge bonus to his Armor Class.
Use: Automatic
Agrippa's Fundamental Guards
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Thibault's Geometry, Dex 19+, Base Attack Bonus +11
Specifics: This character can employ a blade as skillfully in defense as in attack. When fighting with only a one-handed weapon equipped, the character gains a +3 Dodge bonus to his Armor Class.
Use: Automatic
I would rather see these tied to BAB only instead of Dexterity. They are not actual PnP feats by their names and descriptions, and that makes me wonder why they made it in considering our policy. Moreover, they are currently only beneficial to a single archetype, that being the Rapier user. With these obscene Dexterity requirements, everyone is better off dual-wielding, in terms of mechanics, and if we want to open things up for one handing weapons but not making it too broken, I would make away with that last feat, anyway. Besides, Duelists weren't the only ones that used weapons in one hand without a shield in history, nor are they holding that position in Ravenloft.
-
A few more feats for the upcoming hak update; I don't think I'll be adding more at this point.
Bonetti's Defense
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse, Dex 15+
Specifics: This character has chosen to fight with a one-handed weapon and no shield in the style of the great Borcan fencing master Aldo Bonetti. When fighting with only a one-handed weapon equipped, the character gains a +1 Dodge bonus to his Armor Class.
Use: Automatic
Thibault's Geometry
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Bonetti's Defense, Dex 17+, Base Attack Bonus +6
Specifics: This character has further practiced the art of fighting without a weapon or shield in the off hand. When fighting with only a one-handed weapon equipped, the character gains a +2 Dodge bonus to his Armor Class.
Use: Automatic
Agrippa's Fundamental Guards
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Thibault's Geometry, Dex 19+, Base Attack Bonus +11
Specifics: This character can employ a blade as skillfully in defense as in attack. When fighting with only a one-handed weapon equipped, the character gains a +3 Dodge bonus to his Armor Class.
Use: Automatic
I would rather see these tied to BAB only instead of Dexterity. They are not actual PnP feats by their names and descriptions, and that makes me wonder why they made it in considering our policy. Moreover, they are currently only beneficial to a single phenotype, that being the Rapier user. With these obscene Dexterity requirements, everyone is better off dual-wielding, in terms of mechanics, and if we want to open things up for one handing weapons but not making it too broken, I would make away with that last feat, anyway. Besides, Duelists weren't the only ones that used weapons in one hand without a shield in history, nor are they holding that position in Ravenloft.
This is what I was expecting when I first saw the feat's description. Now it just seems like a suboptimal way of going two weapon fighting rather than being able to optimally use a longsword.
-
A few more feats for the upcoming hak update; I don't think I'll be adding more at this point.
Bonetti's Defense
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse, Dex 15+
Specifics: This character has chosen to fight with a one-handed weapon and no shield in the style of the great Borcan fencing master Aldo Bonetti. When fighting with only a one-handed weapon equipped, the character gains a +1 Dodge bonus to his Armor Class.
Use: Automatic
Thibault's Geometry
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Bonetti's Defense, Dex 17+, Base Attack Bonus +6
Specifics: This character has further practiced the art of fighting without a weapon or shield in the off hand. When fighting with only a one-handed weapon equipped, the character gains a +2 Dodge bonus to his Armor Class.
Use: Automatic
Agrippa's Fundamental Guards
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Thibault's Geometry, Dex 19+, Base Attack Bonus +11
Specifics: This character can employ a blade as skillfully in defense as in attack. When fighting with only a one-handed weapon equipped, the character gains a +3 Dodge bonus to his Armor Class.
Use: Automatic
I would rather see these tied to BAB only instead of Dexterity. They are not actual PnP feats by their names and descriptions, and that makes me wonder why they made it in considering our policy. Moreover, they are currently only beneficial to a single phenotype, that being the Rapier user. With these obscene Dexterity requirements, everyone is better off dual-wielding, in terms of mechanics, and if we want to open things up for one handing weapons but not making it too broken, I would make away with that last feat, anyway. Besides, Duelists weren't the only ones that used weapons in one hand without a shield in history, nor are they holding that position in Ravenloft.
While I've heard that the feats seem to be in consensus, I would like to add my wish that these would be retooled to allow access to different builds other than a dexterity build. Trying to parallel what is already considered an optimal build (two-weapon fighting and its series of improvement feats) seems unlikely to draw much attention to these feats outside of some very select builds. While it's awesome that consideration is being given to builds outside the box, these feats feel like they're trying to grab those builds and gently nudge them in the box alongside the other ones.
I second the idea of removing the DEX requirements, and as my idea think possibly replacing them with feat or skill-point requirements in addition to the BAB requirement. Maybe Improved Parry, or Skill Focus Parry.
Other stuff looks fun. Gonna enjoy Crossbow Sniper for sure, and I'm glad to see some fighter love.
-
The new feats look nice, especially the ones for fighters. Pav's suggestion seems interesting, as it would bring in some variety.
A wishful thought is a reworked Epic Weapon Specialization for fighters of levels 16+. But I understand it might be too strong.
-
The new feats look nice, especially the ones for fighters. Pav's suggestion seems interesting, as it would bring in some variety.
A wishful thought is a reworked Epic Weapon Specialization for fighters of levels 16+. But I understand it might be too strong.
We considered it but ultimately felt it was too powerful.
-
The new feats look nice, especially the ones for fighters. Pav's suggestion seems interesting, as it would bring in some variety.
A wishful thought is a reworked Epic Weapon Specialization for fighters of levels 16+. But I understand it might be too strong.
We considered it but ultimately felt it was too powerful.
Maybe a compromise?
Epic Weapon Specialization normally gives a further +4 (for a total of +6 with regular Weapon Specialization). If the bonus were lowered to a regular +2 (for a total of +4 with Weapon Specialization), this would give pure Fighters a strong niche as the damage "generalists". They won't ever really compete with Weapon Masters over crits, and Paladins, Barbarians and Rangers will always beat the Fighter in their own niches.
I mean, adding Overwhelming Critical is a nice touch, but this only works against things that are vulnerable to crits (so basically just levels the playing field a little between pure Fighters and Weapon Masters). Giving pure Fighters a little extra muscle across the board wouldn't, I think, be too much.
-
The new feats look nice, especially the ones for fighters. Pav's suggestion seems interesting, as it would bring in some variety.
A wishful thought is a reworked Epic Weapon Specialization for fighters of levels 16+. But I understand it might be too strong.
We considered it but ultimately felt it was too powerful.
Maybe a compromise?
Epic Weapon Specialization normally gives a further +4 (for a total of +6 with regular Weapon Specialization). If the bonus were lowered to a regular +2 (for a total of +4 with Weapon Specialization), this would give pure Fighters a strong niche as the damage "generalists". They won't ever really compete with Weapon Masters over crits, and Paladins, Barbarians and Rangers will always beat the Fighter in their own niches.
I mean, adding Overwhelming Critical is a nice touch, but this only works against things that are vulnerable to crits (so basically just levels the playing field a little between pure Fighters and Weapon Masters). Giving pure Fighters a little extra muscle across the board wouldn't, I think, be too much.
+1 to this.
Additionally, I would see the Weapon Finesse requirement on Bonetti's Defense removed, for reasons mentioned in my previous post - I simply neglected to speak of it because I figured it would be obvious.
-
Weapon Finesse will remain as a prerequisite; I lowered the Dex requirement a bit more, same for Int (so that to get Agrippa, you need 16 Dex/14 Int; ideally it'd be the other way around but I can understand that no one would roll a melee character with 16 Int) but those feats remain essentially dueling feats. I don't want to remove that flavor. Bonetti, Thibault and Agrippa were three fencing masters. Not all feats are meant to be taken by all characters; hence the initial requirement.
As for Greater Weapon Specialization, there's no proper way to implement it (you can't change the damage bonus of Epic Weapon Specialization since it's hardcoded).
-
As for Greater Weapon Specialization, there's no proper way to implement it (you can't change the damage bonus of Epic Weapon Specialization since it's hardcoded).
Hmm, if you created a copy of regular Weapon Specialization and gave a character both feats, (so Weapon Specialization plus Copy of Weapon Specialization), would it add the bonus of +2 twice or just once?
-
As for Greater Weapon Specialization, there's no proper way to implement it (you can't change the damage bonus of Epic Weapon Specialization since it's hardcoded).
Hmm, if you created a copy of regular Weapon Specialization and gave a character both feats, (so Weapon Specialization plus Copy of Weapon Specialization), would it add the bonus of +2 twice or just once?
Just once; you can't create a copy of hardcoded feats. Basically it's based on the feat #, not the feat's name or whatever other information you provide. If you have a chance, look into the feat.2da file; it's pretty easy to work with and will help understanding how these work.
It's also how I added Unorthodox Flurry; it's a disabled feat that was commented out completely for the Disciple of Shou PrC (Martial Flurry I think). I just added it back and renamed it to use it for our purposes.
-
Ah well.
As discussed on Discord, though, please consider adding Armor Skin for pure 17+ Fighters. They could certainly afford some nice edge.
-
Weapon Finesse will remain as a prerequisite; I lowered the Dex requirement a bit more, same for Int (so that to get Agrippa, you need 16 Dex/14 Int; ideally it'd be the other way around but I can understand that no one would roll a melee character with 16 Int) but those feats remain essentially dueling feats. I don't want to remove that flavor. Bonetti, Thibault and Agrippa were three fencing masters. Not all feats are meant to be taken by all characters; hence the initial requirement.
Yet at the moment it remains mostly limited to only one build, while as discussed here and elsewhere, the purpose of new feats is the possibility of opening up new character paths. I suppose if someone really wanted to one hand a strength weapon they could waste that feat and go with 14 dexterity, but it still seems more than fishy and rather frankly, pointless when they can go with a tower shield and not waste any feats. The requirements as they are right now are good; one handing a strength weapon will never be as good as with a shield but it'd still be understandably more AC than using a two hander, thus being at the very least more competitive than its formerly trashy status.
-
Yet at the moment it remains mostly limited to only one build, while as discussed here and elsewhere, the purpose of new feats is the possibility of opening up new character paths. I suppose if someone really wanted to one hand a strength weapon they could waste that feat and go with 14 dexterity, but it still seems more than fishy and rather frankly, pointless when they can go with a tower shield and not waste any feats. The requirements as they are right now are good; one handing a strength weapon will never be as good as with a shield but it'd still be understandably more AC than using a two hander, thus being at the very least more competitive than its formerly trashy status.
Idk, at first glance; yeah, it doesn't compete with TWF or with shields... but on further consideration, I don't think it's meant to. This is a pretty nice handout to anyone who weapon finesses but doesn't want to invest the what, six feats into dual-wielding (ambidex, two-weapon fighting, imp. two-weapon fighting, two-weapon defense, imp two-weapon defense, greater two-weapon defense)? It looks pretty viable on bards, rogues, wizrogues, monks, shifters, and anyone who wants it for flavor.
-
It feels weird to me that so many of the new fighter feats seem Cha based.
No Str or Dex based stuff? Why? :-P
Also, even a Con based feat you could go for which prerequisites for would be a high base seems a tad more, well... Martial.
I get the persuasion/commander type is one of those alternative fighter builds people don't often think about but... I don't know that sacrificing much needed Str and Dex (for attacks) points or Con (for tankiness) would be that desirable for martial classes. Maybe that's just me though.
-
Yet at the moment it remains mostly limited to only one build, while as discussed here and elsewhere, the purpose of new feats is the possibility of opening up new character paths. I suppose if someone really wanted to one hand a strength weapon they could waste that feat and go with 14 dexterity, but it still seems more than fishy and rather frankly, pointless when they can go with a tower shield and not waste any feats. The requirements as they are right now are good; one handing a strength weapon will never be as good as with a shield but it'd still be understandably more AC than using a two hander, thus being at the very least more competitive than its formerly trashy status.
Idk, at first glance; yeah, it doesn't compete with TWF or with shields... but on further consideration, I don't think it's meant to. This is a pretty nice handout to anyone who weapon finesses but doesn't want to invest the what, six feats into dual-wielding (ambidex, two-weapon fighting, imp. two-weapon fighting, two-weapon defense, imp two-weapon defense, greater two-weapon defense)? It looks pretty viable on bards, rogues, wizrogues, monks, shifters, and anyone who wants it for flavor.
It's three feats, essentially upping a one handing rapier build to +8, higher than a tower shield. It's really more than good.
However, a one-handing STR build will only be just the same as a tower shield or even lower. These are still invested feats that you give up on, as well as an enchanted tower shield's other bonuses. They are good additions, and while not meant for STR builds -- why shouldn't they be, at least partially, if past statements were about the inclusion of feats to expand available build paths?
Not sure why you are talking about dual wielding, though.
-
I get what he's saying about dual wielding, he's saying these feats are a less feat-heavy option to being able to use a weapon than dual wielding for builds that would benefit from it.
-
I get what he's saying about dual wielding, he's saying these feats are a less feat-heavy option to being able to use a weapon than dual wielding for builds that would benefit from it.
I get why he's saying it too, but it's sort of irrelevant when we already discussed the potency and equivalencies between the two paths, while the discussion at the moment is generally, in terms of balance perspective, comparing one handing a longsword and sword and board.
-
There's nothing saying you have you use a finesseable weapon in order to gain the benefits of these new feats, rather that you just have taken weapon finesse. 18 str/14 dex builds are pretty viable. You could absolutely wield a long sword or even an bastard sword and easily gain access to the first two one handed defense feats- (which is kinda broken imo)
-
It's far from broken, considering the points Pav mentioned, in my opinion. It's more or less a possibility for a different style.
Something that I believe is well due, with the list of classes and possible "viable" builds one has at their disposal.
-
There's nothing saying you have you use a finesseable weapon in order to gain the benefits of these new feats, rather that you just have taken weapon finesse. 18 str/14 dex builds are pretty viable. You could absolutely wield a long sword or even an bastard sword and easily gain access to the first two one handed defense feats- (which is kinda broken imo)
Sure, but it's a waste of a feat that's not at all required for fair usage of its continuation feats.
-
There's nothing saying you have you use a finesseable weapon in order to gain the benefits of these new feats, rather that you just have taken weapon finesse. 18 str/14 dex builds are pretty viable. You could absolutely wield a long sword or even an bastard sword and easily gain access to the first two one handed defense feats- (which is kinda broken imo)
Sure, but it's a waste of a feat that's not at all required for fair usage of its continuation feats.
Fighter's already have A LOT of feat, I do not see any problem here, it's not a waste of feat at all either since in the end its to make your char stronger.
-
I love these changes, though I feel an immense pity for those already established fighters who used CHA as a dump stat. :cry:
Slightly off-topic question though, is it even possible we might look into making shuriken act like they should in the hands of a monk? I've been on other servers where you got monk UAB + flurry progression with them. Is that possible to do, here?
-
Overall I feel like some of the feats are hit or miss in what they try to achieve; the Mercantile Line of feats is amazing for dedicated merchants and/or vendor looters on behalf of parties. Sterling Reputation is interesting but generally speaking the OCR system itself is pretty odd in what it achieves, so any feat based off it is kind of weird to me. Unremarkable especially is a weird one; I don't see how anyone would pick it unless they make a routine of casting in front of NPCs since it doesn't achieve anything in player interactions and the OCR system itself is very vague in a roleplay sense.
Shared Fury is also interesting and opens up a Barbarian/Ranger/Druid multiclass option that is fascinating. The only thing I'd ask is if they both must remain within that range for the effects to continue, or if it's just during the initial use of the rage. Mechanically if it's the former that could be very frustrating to have your animal companion lose it's rage due to being slightly out of range. The addition of taming magical beasts and vermin/insects is also very neat, but I can't help but feel the roster of animal companions needs a slight expansion to boot. But maybe I'm just biased on wanting a crocodile companion since they have one of the most excellent models added in the recent updates.
I really like all of the charismatic Fighter feats since they open up the possibility of a commander-type role for fighters, though the durations seem quite short which is probably fair for balance. Unorthodox Flurry is personally a really appealing feat, but I do wish it was extended to Quarterstaves since it's such an iconic weapon of choice for the class. The last one of real interest to me is Crossbow Sniper, since it goes out of it's way to making Crossbows a viable weapon again in face of Longbow Rapid Shot combos.
Finally on Ruxandra's off-topic mention of shurikens; it would be nice if they were added to the list also for Unorthodox Flurry, but I can't help but feel that without them being craftable they'll still not be really viable options. The shame is still true of throwing axes and throwing darts, sadly.
-
Finally on Ruxandra's off-topic mention of shurikens; it would be nice if they were added to the list also for Unorthodox Flurry, but I can't help but feel that without them being craftable they'll still not be really viable options. The shame is still true of throwing axes and throwing darts, sadly.
I actually like throwing axes, especially since they reduced the weight on them awhile ago since there are not a lot of missile weapons you can use with a shield. My dwarf loves to soften up distant enemies before switching to a melee weapon. It would be nice to make crafted versions though.
I really do love all these new additions though it seems I need to annotate them down for when I need to rebuild my chars as a result of the recent hak update.
-
These are cool. I like the idea of the cha fighter now not being a complete meme.
I don't think anyone will take unremarkable though simply because the potential RP applications of such a feat will probably never be utilized and people starting quarrels that tick off OCR is seldom in the first place. Nobody grinds the citadel for exp. Especially when compared to other feats, I definitely would not do that even on a fighter that gets a feat every level.
-
My only issue is with shield parry, which appears to be the "fix" for parry being the go to for tanking with shields becoming obsolete. My problem with it is that it doesnt fix the issue for strength based fighters, rather it just adds even more power and viability to the dex parry build. I'd much rather have it be renamed to Mighty Shield or something along those lines and have a str requirement and perhaps remove any relation to the parry skill, instead being a +1 to AC for wielding a shield, with there being greater versions of it as you progress to add more as you level. Essentially the skill focus feats that you'd use on parry would be used on these instead.
-
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Dex 15+.
Specifics: The character has learnt how to better parry blows with a shield. When fighting with a shield, for every five skill points in Parry the character's armor class is improved by +1 (up to a maximum of +5).
Use: Automatic.
Will the AC bonus granted by this feat be shield AC?
Also, I would like to see it slightly remade with lowered dex score as requirement. 15 DEX in my opinion mostly fits to builds who aim to get weapon finesse/ use parry ac combined with even higher dex score.
-
Will Bonetti's defense line of feats stack with shield parry?
-
EO these are all awesome! :thumbup:
-
My only issue is with shield parry, which appears to be the "fix" for parry being the go to for tanking with shields becoming obsolete. My problem with it is that it doesnt fix the issue for strength based fighters, rather it just adds even more power and viability to the dex parry build. I'd much rather have it be renamed to Mighty Shield or something along those lines and have a str requirement and perhaps remove any relation to the parry skill, instead being a +1 to AC for wielding a shield, with there being greater versions of it as you progress to add more as you level. Essentially the skill focus feats that you'd use on parry would be used on these instead.
I'm not sure how shields are becoming obsolete. I don't even get why Shield Parry is even being considered, since the idea behind Parry giving AC was to give it a reason to exist and even out some playstyles that become horribly disadvantaged in a low-magic setting, honestly.
Consider:
-A shield is +1 to +3 AC off the bat.
-Then Magic Vestmented or Varnished to +4 or +5
-Has other properties (skills, DR, etc) on top of that.
And we're going to add +5 MORE AC on top of all this? Have we been taking crazy pills? Can someone please explain to me how this isn't insane? Even if it was classed "Shield AC" and Magic Vestment/Varnishes didn't stack, it defeats the reason Parry was made useful, to begin with. Playstyles that are severely disadvantaged due to lowered magic/stats are no longer buoyed by Parry, but back to where they were at square one. Now everyone has +5 AC.
Honestly imo, it should look like this...
-If you use a shield, you get no parry benefit. Having the nifty effects of the shield itself is your benefit. (Magic Vestment/Varnish is your AC benefit.)
-If you dual-wield, you get half parry benefit. Having multiple off-hand attacks to increase your DPS is your benefit. (You have the Two-weapon Defense line of feats as an AC benefit.) +1 AC/10 Parry seems balanced for having the extra DPS of off-hand.
-If you use a 2H weapon, you should get some parry benefit. This is because getting a few more damage from Strength is a rather weak bonus in a very low magic setting with no hope of gaining +12 strength. (I'd say +1 AC per 10 modified Parry is fine. +1 AC/5 Parry is too much.)
-Other playstyles get full +1 AC/5 Parry.
I just don't understand the idea of it. It seems too powerful to me, esp given everybody and their dog would have it and now Parry went from "balancing some playstyles out that lose out in low-magic settings" to "free +5 AC for every playstyle and build in the game."
In that case, why even do it? You've not balanced playstyles that suffered from being in a low-magic setting, just raised the AC bar across the board for everyone - which means the game is right back where it started.
Please explain to me why we need shields to have +11 to +13 AC?
-
My only issue is with shield parry, which appears to be the "fix" for parry being the go to for tanking with shields becoming obsolete. My problem with it is that it doesnt fix the issue for strength based fighters, rather it just adds even more power and viability to the dex parry build. I'd much rather have it be renamed to Mighty Shield or something along those lines and have a str requirement and perhaps remove any relation to the parry skill, instead being a +1 to AC for wielding a shield, with there being greater versions of it as you progress to add more as you level. Essentially the skill focus feats that you'd use on parry would be used on these instead.
I'm not sure how shields are becoming obsolete. I don't even get why Shield Parry is even being considered, since the idea behind Parry giving AC was to give it a reason to exist and even out some playstyles that become horribly disadvantaged in a low-magic setting, honestly.
Consider:
-A shield is +1 to +3 AC off the bat.
-Then Magic Vestmented or Varnished to +4 or +5
-Has other properties (skills, DR, etc) on top of that.
And we're going to add +5 MORE AC on top of all this? Have we been taking crazy pills? Can someone please explain to me how this isn't insane? Even if it was classed "Shield AC" and Magic Vestment/Varnishes didn't stack, it defeats the reason Parry was made useful, to begin with. Playstyles that are severely disadvantaged due to lowered magic/stats are no longer buoyed by Parry, but back to where they were at square one. Now everyone has +5 AC.
Honestly imo, it should look like this...
-If you use a shield, you get no parry benefit. Having the nifty effects of the shield itself is your benefit. (Magic Vestment/Varnish is your AC benefit.)
-If you dual-wield, you get half parry benefit. Having multiple off-hand attacks to increase your DPS is your benefit. (You have the Two-weapon Defense line of feats as an AC benefit.) +1 AC/10 Parry seems balanced for having the extra DPS of off-hand.
-If you use a 2H weapon, you should get some parry benefit. This is because getting a few more damage from Strength is a rather weak bonus in a very low magic setting with no hope of gaining +12 strength. (I'd say +1 AC per 10 modified Parry is fine. +1 AC/5 Parry is too much.)
-Other playstyles get full +1 AC/5 Parry.
I just don't understand the idea of it. It seems too powerful to me, esp given everybody and their dog would have it and now Parry went from "balancing some playstyles out that lose out in low-magic settings" to "free +5 AC for every playstyle and build in the game."
In that case, why even do it? You've not balanced playstyles that suffered from being in a low-magic setting, just raised the AC bar across the board for everyone - which means the game is right back where it started.
Please explain to me why we need shields to have +11 to +13 AC?
I have to agree with this. This seems like an insane boost to shield-bearers on the server, for relatively little investment for such a huge bonus.
-
Will Bonetti's defense line of feats stack with shield parry?
The One handed defense feats (Bonetti's, Agrippa) will give you dodge ac if you are wielding a weapon with one hand and have nothing in your off hand. It will stack with the ac bonus you receive from the parry skill.
-
My only issue is with shield parry, which appears to be the "fix" for parry being the go to for tanking with shields becoming obsolete. My problem with it is that it doesnt fix the issue for strength based fighters, rather it just adds even more power and viability to the dex parry build. I'd much rather have it be renamed to Mighty Shield or something along those lines and have a str requirement and perhaps remove any relation to the parry skill, instead being a +1 to AC for wielding a shield, with there being greater versions of it as you progress to add more as you level. Essentially the skill focus feats that you'd use on parry would be used on these instead.
I'm not sure how shields are becoming obsolete. I don't even get why Shield Parry is even being considered, since the idea behind Parry giving AC was to give it a reason to exist and even out some playstyles that become horribly disadvantaged in a low-magic setting, honestly.
Consider:
-A shield is +1 to +3 AC off the bat.
-Then Magic Vestmented or Varnished to +4 or +5
-Has other properties (skills, DR, etc) on top of that.
And we're going to add +5 MORE AC on top of all this? Have we been taking crazy pills? Can someone please explain to me how this isn't insane? Even if it was classed "Shield AC" and Magic Vestment/Varnishes didn't stack, it defeats the reason Parry was made useful, to begin with. Playstyles that are severely disadvantaged due to lowered magic/stats are no longer buoyed by Parry, but back to where they were at square one. Now everyone has +5 AC.
...
Please explain to me why we need shields to have +11 to +13 AC?
Seconding this.
-
Not Sure but does shield reduce parrying skill like wearing plate armor does ? I think it does a plate is -8 parrying and huge shield is -10 together is -18 in parrying, so i think this is more like little shield to be useful with skill dump and slightly less heavy shield. With my calculation level 20 with feats focus on parrying and DEX built probably gonna get +2 using huge shield extra, sacrificed STR, and lots of other feats not to mention parrying skill points. Parrying skill is not like tumble it reflect the actual skill points on you with armor and shield on.
-
Not Sure but does shield reduce parrying skill like wearing plate armor does ? I think it does a plate is -8 parrying and huge shield is -10 together is -18 in parrying, so i think this is more like little shield to be useful with skill dump and slightly less heavy shield. With my calculation level 20 with feats focus on parrying and DEX built probably gonna get +2 using huge shield extra, sacrificed STR, and lots of other feats not to mention parrying skill points. Parrying skill is not like tumble it reflect the actual skill points on you with armor and shield on.
It does; you're mostly correct in that regard, though we also adjusted ACP a little bit; 15 on Tower, 10 on Large, still 1 on Small, so a full plate/tower shield using character (why would they even go Parry is beyond me) would start with -23 Parry; they'd thus need 28 Parry to get 1 AC. And we now will cap Parry at 30 skill points pre-ACP, so they couldn't get more than that. That'd bring your Tower Shield's AC at 5 in that situation (since Tower/Large Shields' base AC were both bumped by 1). Full Plate/Large Shield users also wouldn't benefit much, starting at -18 Parry, so max 2 AC if maxing Parry.
-
Basically the Shield Parry feat is useful for Dex fighters who might want to use Shields for extra AC, instead of say going for TWF and and the extra Feats in that line.
I agree that 11 - 13 AC would be pretty insane. But it looks like most of the numbers would actually be in the 9 - 10 range. Which is more reasonable.
Maximum parry AC is (30 - ACP)/5 if you have the Shield Parry Feat, which requires Dex 15. When you translate that with Shield ACP already accounted for, that means:
Small shields: (30 - armour ACP)/5 for means a Dex build in Chainshirt could hit +5 parry AC. That'll give them +10 maximum, including a +4 varnish/vestment.
Large shields: (20 - armour ACP)/5 means a Dex build in Leather would benefit from +4 parry AC; but most builds would probably wear at least a chainshirt, which would lower the maximum parry to +3. So the maximum for most armoured builds is also around +10.
Tower shielsd (15 - armour ACP)/5 means a Dex build in leather would benefit from +3 parry AC; but why would you go with a Tower Shield build and not wear heavy armour? A half-plate wearing dude (since you're going Dex 15, you may as well wear half-plate) would still be limited to +1 parry AC; all that for an investment of at least 23 ranks in parry, a Feat, and at least an extra +3 to Parry Skill from somewhere.
-
This might not be the right place to bring this up, but we've talked about it a good bit on the discord chat.
A major concern I have with the upcoming changes is that any gains to AC due to parry will be Dodge bonuses. So basically any time you are flat footed, you lose all this bonus (up to 8 AC!).
While this makes sense mechanically, one of the most common ways I've been put flat footed is when an opponent flees and my character just disengages from combat and doesn't switch targets. Unless this issue is resolved, melee builds that actually use parry will notice they'll be getting hit a lot more often than they had in the past in these situations.
Food for thought.
-
1/3 of the time monsters roll a natural 20 anyway lol.
-
There's nothing saying you have you use a finesseable weapon in order to gain the benefits of these new feats, rather that you just have taken weapon finesse. 18 str/14 dex builds are pretty viable. You could absolutely wield a long sword or even an bastard sword and easily gain access to the first two one handed defense feats- (which is kinda broken imo)
Sure, but it's a waste of a feat that's not at all required for fair usage of its continuation feats.
Fighter's already have A LOT of feat, I do not see any problem here, it's not a waste of feat at all either since in the end its to make your char stronger.
My input is probably not worth much here, but I'll throw my two fang in anyway:
The single weapon feats are great in concept, but the reqs still throw me off. Why are these based on dex rather than, say, the improved parry feat or the like?
The dex req would make sense if we assume that I'm dodging blows, but then why do I need Weapon Finesse as a feat? I'm not using the weapon to defend myself, I'm dodging. If you're requiring weapon finesse, it implies I'm using the weapon as part of the defense, in which case why do we need the dex req? why not require SF: Parry or Improved Parry, to imply that the the sword is what's defending?
I feel like the feat tree is giving me mixed signals.
Otherwise, I like the look of the new feats. Is there any chance of stealing some of the PRC Expansion Pack feats? Canny Defense (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Canny_defense) would be awesome as a feat for fighters, bards, and rogues. I'd love to see some variant of Katana Finesse (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Katana_finesse) as well. All of the archery feats are pretty great as well.
Am I following the shield feat discussion correctly in that the setup is basically meant to allow small shields to be useful? Sword and buckler fighting was a very common thing, back in the middle ages.
-
The single weapon feats are great in concept, but the reqs still throw me off. Why are these based on dex rather than, say, the improved parry feat or the like?
I think it's a valid suggestion actually.
-
Would it be possible to see some of these sort of feats for two-handed weapons? I'm thinking in the same spirit something like "Talhoffer's Guard" or "Liechtenauer's Strike." Both would fit very thematically with the period, and would toss a bone to that playstyle as well. As it is, two-handers are already going to have lower AC on average than anyone else because they are always strength weapons and thus need heavier armor, so they get less out of Parry due to the armor penalty to skills. Having a +1 AC feat or two would be handy for them. It could go even further and require both Improved Parry and Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Greataxe, or Halberd.
-
As it is, two-handers are already going to have lower AC on average than anyone else because they are always strength weapons and thus need heavier armor, so they get less out of Parry due to the armor penalty to skills. Having a +1 AC feat or two would be handy for them.
The move to make shields better was in part inspired by the fact that two-handers already have it very good; being able to get +4 or +5 parry AC while doing extra damage meant that shields were only a couple of AC points better at best.
-
Am I following the shield feat discussion correctly in that the setup is basically meant to allow small shields to be useful? Sword and buckler fighting was a very common thing, back in the middle ages.
Small and Large will indeed become much more useful than they are now.
-
On further consideration:
Shield parry is a bit weird compared to the Bonetti's Defense line of feats. In both cases, I can get 5AC from parry, but now my choice is "15 dex and one feat for +2 AC base (which can easily be made significantly higher)" or "spend one more point in dex, have at least a 14int, and drop four feats to get a +3 AC that can't be increased further."
This only seems to strengthen the argument that the dex requirement is weird, as now all three options (Shield+Parry, single-sword+parry, and two-weapon+parry) all require a significant dex investment. Single-sword is way more expensive for what is effectively less benefit compared to a shield+parry character who can easily acquire a masterwork large shield for +3AC or magic vestment/enchant it for further benefit.
---------------
Alternate suggestion:
Leave the TWF tree and the Shield Parry feat alone. Drop the dex requirement (or move it to 13 to fall in line with other "dodging around" feats like Mobility) from the single-sword tree and swap it out for Improved Parry.
Now you have some options:
> High dex and willing to invest in the feats? TWF.
> Willing to invest in some dex? Take the shield feat.
> Willing to invest minimum dex, int, and a few feats? take the the single-sword tree.
> None of the above? go great weapon or tower shield.
That way each path would have different requirements. As it stands now, there's no real reason to take the more difficult option (single-sword tree) over the shield-parry feat. The shield-parry feat can give you a greater benefit for less investment.
-
-Added Elemental Shape and Primeval Wild Shape.
-
I'm loving the two new feats for druids, but I do have my doubts:
Elemental Essence
1d6 extra damage + resistance? Sweet! But that duration, though...You'd need to be level 10 to get even a tenth the duration of your average varnish. And druids only get 5 uses of wildshape, with no way of increasing it. Maybe up the duration to turns/level? Giving more uses of wild shapes ( through feat or otherwhise) might work as well.
I'm curious though, will you be able to apply this while in animal shape?
Primeval Shape
THIS. ALL OF THIS. I love shapeshifting to fight, and this'll give an edge, for sure. Though, even with the extra strength, it won't do too much. Wild shape animal forms (even the dire ones) do mediocre damage and piercing at that.
Maybe add a cold damage buff as well? If the elemental essence stacks with it, then it'll certainly turn you into an elemental beast! Pun fully intended.
Also, yes, more shapes and/or pets choices would be awesome.
At any rate, keep up the good work, developers. Loving all the effort that goes into all this.
-
Hm the new single weapon fighting compared to the Shield Parry is...welll not that good.
I got my ranger with all the feat requirements for allmost all of the new feats.
I usually walk with him using a single handed medium or small weapon, when he is required to fight melee.
He has TWD and ITWD, funny thing is the bonuses still apply as long as you are NOT using a shield. So currently with 25 parry he can get 5 AC and +2 from ITWD.
Now let us see how this turns out with the new feats:
-Shield Parry Gets +4 AC due to the ACP from the shield reducing it to 23 of course can counter it with a single parry item so let us go with +5 as well. Add to it the shields +2 (large shield) and a random priests magic vestment say of +3/+4....and wow...
-New TWD feat: out of range 19 dex requirementis just too much....also rangers do not receive it for free like the other two feats.
-The duelist path seems quite intriguing and welcoming however, 3 feats for a ranger is too much especially considering that the prerequisite is already weapon finesse.(still dont understand why this is a prereq!) Which effectively makes it 4 feats. You do get dodge bonus which seems decent, however flat footedness is still troublesome, and not to mention, my char would get the full bonus...so basicly +8.
So considering all these a chain shirt wearing ranger still can get about....+11/12 AC from shield parry.
Shield parry in comparision to the other two is just...WAY TOO OP. Not to mention prereq is 15 dex only?
So for TWD to get the +3 bonus you need 3 feats. For duelist bonuses you need 4 feats. Also for both the required abilities.
For shield just 15 dex and get a huge boost to your AC?
I see this as something that is VERY good for rogues, rangers and bards...and elven clerics/paladins.
The new feats are nice touch but shield parry is just too OP.
-
-Shield Parry Gets +4 AC due to the ACP from the shield reducing it to 23 of course can counter it with a single parry item so let us go with +5 as well. Add to it the shields +2 (large shield) and a random priests magic vestment say of +3/+4....and wow...
No, the max Parry that can be counted pre-ACP is 30, so when using a large shield, you can't get more than 22 Parry after ACP to calculate the AC you get, so your max AC from a large shield + varnishes + Parry is 10 (2 Base + 4 from Varnish + 4 from Parry). There's another thread with more specific information about the most recent Parry changes. In comparison a two-weapon character would be able to get 9 AC total with the feats (3 from feats, 6 from Parry if they hit 30 Parry and use leather armor), same for a one-handed character.
-
-Although not a new feat, we will be bringing Imp Expertise more in line with PnP and add a BAB 6+ requirement to it.
-
I'm loving the two new feats for druids, but I do have my doubts:
Elemental Essence
1d6 extra damage + resistance? Sweet! But that duration, though...You'd need to be level 10 to get even a tenth the duration of your average varnish. And druids only get 5 uses of wildshape, with no way of increasing it. Maybe up the duration to turns/level? Giving more uses of wild shapes ( through feat or otherwhise) might work as well.
Could be worse. You could only get it for only 2 rounds like all the new monk stuff. :lol:
-
I'm loving the two new feats for druids, but I do have my doubts:
Elemental Essence
1d6 extra damage + resistance? Sweet! But that duration, though...You'd need to be level 10 to get even a tenth the duration of your average varnish. And druids only get 5 uses of wildshape, with no way of increasing it. Maybe up the duration to turns/level? Giving more uses of wild shapes ( through feat or otherwhise) might work as well.
I'm curious though, will you be able to apply this while in animal shape?
I'm not 100% sure whether it will be useable in wild shape form but you can use it before switching. I'll also change the duration to turns/level but capping at 10 like Elephant's Hide since you get so few uses of it in the first place.
Primeval Shape
THIS. ALL OF THIS. I love shapeshifting to fight, and this'll give an edge, for sure. Though, even with the extra strength, it won't do too much. Wild shape animal forms (even the dire ones) do mediocre damage and piercing at that.
Maybe add a cold damage buff as well? If the elemental essence stacks with it, then it'll certainly turn you into an elemental beast! Pun fully intended.
Also, yes, more shapes and/or pets choices would be awesome.
At any rate, keep up the good work, developers. Loving all the effort that goes into all this.
There's also Savage Mobility that already provides a 20% movement speed increase. I don't know if there are other feats that provide boosts to wild shape in PnP though. We may at a later point add more shapes for druids and shifters down the road.
-
-Added Hawk's Vision, Expanded Aura of Courage, Sacred Vitality, Shield Maiden's Grace.
-
You know, I haven't noticed much new feats for rogues... did my eye skip it or are they lacking a bit in new goodies as compared to the other classes which received their overhaul?
-
-Shield Parry Gets +4 AC due to the ACP from the shield reducing it to 23 of course can counter it with a single parry item so let us go with +5 as well. Add to it the shields +2 (large shield) and a random priests magic vestment say of +3/+4....and wow...
No, the max Parry that can be counted pre-ACP is 30, so when using a large shield, you can't get more than 22 Parry after ACP to calculate the AC you get, so your max AC from a large shield + varnishes + Parry is 10 (2 Base + 4 from Varnish + 4 from Parry). There's another thread with more specific information about the most recent Parry changes. In comparison a two-weapon character would be able to get 9 AC total with the feats (3 from feats, 6 from Parry if they hit 30 Parry and use leather armor), same for a one-handed character.
Ok just noticed the ACP changes thread.
-
Just noticed this; the feat Shared Fury doesn't offer up an alternative option for the feat Wolverine's Rage previously added in the last slew of hak feat updates. Perhaps make it compatible with that also, as an alternative to taking barbarian levels and as further incentive to taking the Wolverine's Rage feat?
-
Just noticed this; the feat Shared Fury doesn't offer up an alternative option for the feat Wolverine's Rage previously added in the last slew of hak feat updates. Perhaps make it compatible with that also, as an alternative to taking barbarian levels and as further incentive to taking the Wolverine's Rage feat?
Good idea. Will change it.
-
-Added Necromantic Presence, Necromantic Might and Sacred Boost
-Also reworked some feats slightly (changed requirement for Bonetti from Weapon Finesse to Expertise to more closely match the PnP's version of a similar feat).
-
For the three charisma/influence based Fighter feats, I'd suggest for the earliest two adding some kind of scaling to them. Perhaps additional bonuses that scale off Influence ranks and Fighter levels. Their efficacy severely drops off as you increase in level, such that even at the levels they're available they're not particularly amazing; nice, but not worth a feat I'd say. Adding that scaling encourages further development of a character in that avenue while also providing a tangible benefit to having the feat in the first place.
On Unorthodox Flurry; could it be expanded to include Quarterstaves which are a staple of D&D Monks? The weapon itself only deals d6 bludgeoning damage and is a large category weapon, hence you can't dual wield them and they don't deal staggering amounts of damage.
Finally; a lot of the aura-type spells or AOE effects don't have ranges listed, which are important.
-
On Unorthodox Flurry; could it be expanded to include Quarterstaves which are a staple of D&D Monks? The weapon itself only deals d6 bludgeoning damage and is a large category weapon, hence you can't dual wield them and they don't deal staggering amounts of damage.
Alas this is hardcoded; that feat is a renamed Disciple of Shou feat. There is also another feat like that that allows Flurry of Blows to work with all melee weapons but we've decided not to add it (Greatsword wielding monk somehow felt wrong).
Finally; a lot of the aura-type spells or AOE effects don't have ranges listed, which are important.
Will add the radius in the description.
Also, added Urban Stealth for stealthers.
-
On Unorthodox Flurry; could it be expanded to include Quarterstaves which are a staple of D&D Monks? The weapon itself only deals d6 bludgeoning damage and is a large category weapon, hence you can't dual wield them and they don't deal staggering amounts of damage.
Alas this is hardcoded; that feat is a renamed Disciple of Shou feat. There is also another feat like that that allows Flurry of Blows to work with all melee weapons but we've decided not to add it (Greatsword wielding monk somehow felt wrong).
Sad! Greatsword monk is a bit odd, but katana monk would be perfect.
-
Seems like Bonetti's Defense new requirement (Expertise, Dex 12+, Int 13+) Has not been added on the test serve yet. It's still Weapon Finess, Dex 12+, Int 12+.
It's 14:30 EST at the moment. Just mentioning.
-
Seems like Bonetti's Defense new requirement (Expertise, Dex 12+, Int 13+) Has not been added on the test serve yet. It's still Weapon Finess, Dex 12+, Int 12+.
It's 14:30 EST at the moment. Just mentioning.
That’s normal. We haven’t yet updated the hak on the test server.
Also, I added Profane Boost and made slight changes to Sacred Boost.
-
I'm loving the two new feats for druids, but I do have my doubts:
Elemental Essence
1d6 extra damage + resistance? Sweet! But that duration, though...You'd need to be level 10 to get even a tenth the duration of your average varnish. And druids only get 5 uses of wildshape, with no way of increasing it. Maybe up the duration to turns/level? Giving more uses of wild shapes ( through feat or otherwhise) might work as well.
I'm curious though, will you be able to apply this while in animal shape?
Primeval Shape
THIS. ALL OF THIS. I love shapeshifting to fight, and this'll give an edge, for sure. Though, even with the extra strength, it won't do too much. Wild shape animal forms (even the dire ones) do mediocre damage and piercing at that.
Maybe add a cold damage buff as well? If the elemental essence stacks with it, then it'll certainly turn you into an elemental beast! Pun fully intended.
Also, yes, more shapes and/or pets choices would be awesome.
At any rate, keep up the good work, developers. Loving all the effort that goes into all this.
Few notes on this:
1) I would assume if elemental essence works in wildshape it would work in elemental shape as well and vise verse? what about shapechange?
2) I love the idea of elemental essence but mechanically I have some concerns. It just seems really good assuming that it does work in druids or shifters other forms, maybe the resistance and damage should be separate feats. I love druids and love the idea, it just feels like druids got a huge pump in the last update and that this is pretty significant for a single feat.
3) Primeval shape is a really cool idea and will help out pre-level 16 druid out a lot. However, its worth noting it wouldn't really ever get used after 15th. You end up spending all your time in elemental form, shapechanged, or combat casting and using your wildshape charges on your other cool new abilities :).
4) New wiz/sorc feats would be kinda cool. Especially some type of metamagic/arcane defense counter for timestop if possible. Just a thought.
5)If you guys do get around to new shapes I would love to see mist elementals become an elemental option, could open up a lot of room for a half vistani mist hag type of character which i think would be exciting. Also giving the previous elementals more special abilities would be fun. The air elemental gets one and so does the water but not fire or earth. A not powerful rock throw and burning hands respectively could be nice and give some flavor to those forms.
-
Few notes on this:
1) I would assume if elemental essence works in wildshape it would work in elemental shape as well and vise verse? what about shapechange?
It's like any buff; it'll work in whatever shape/form the person is in.
2) I love the idea of elemental essence but mechanically I have some concerns. It just seems really good assuming that it does work in druids or shifters other forms, maybe the resistance and damage should be separate feats. I love druids and love the idea, it just feels like druids got a huge pump in the last update and that this is pretty significant for a single feat.
I've given it some thought and am comfortable with its power level. Keep in mind that druids get limited uses of wild shape so you can't really stack it forever. It caps at 10 minutes.
3) Primeval shape is a really cool idea and will help out pre-level 16 druid out a lot. However, its worth noting it wouldn't really ever get used after 15th. You end up spending all your time in elemental form, shapechanged, or combat casting and using your wildshape charges on your other cool new abilities :).
Yeah, Primeval works in Greater Wild Shape and Wild shape but not Elemental Shape. Enhance Wild Shape (new spell) and Savage Mobility, though, work in all shapes.
4) New wiz/sorc feats would be kinda cool. Especially some type of metamagic/arcane defense counter for timestop if possible. Just a thought.
Technically they got the whole line of summoning feats. We gave wizards a plethora of new spells last hak update so figured we'd give other classes some love this time around. I'll probably eventually add wizard/sorcerer feats; there are some pretty cool flavourful ones.
5)If you guys do get around to new shapes I would love to see mist elementals become an elemental option, could open up a lot of room for a half vistani mist hag type of character which i think would be exciting. Also giving the previous elementals more special abilities would be fun. The air elemental gets one and so does the water but not fire or earth. A not powerful rock throw and burning hands respectively could be nice and give some flavor to those forms.
I'd have to check if Elemental Shape is modified in Ravenloft but in PnP, it's clarified (and been clarified by WOTC) that Elemental Shape only works for those four elementals. Mist Elemental (Blood, Grave and Pyre too) is essentially a "mist" version of the regular Air Elemental. It would be cool though. At some point we may add more wild shapes but it takes more time to implement those properly so not this time around anyway.
-
Few notes on this:
1) I would assume if elemental essence works in wildshape it would work in elemental shape as well and vise verse? what about shapechange?
It's like any buff; it'll work in whatever shape/form the person is in.
2) I love the idea of elemental essence but mechanically I have some concerns. It just seems really good assuming that it does work in druids or shifters other forms, maybe the resistance and damage should be separate feats. I love druids and love the idea, it just feels like druids got a huge pump in the last update and that this is pretty significant for a single feat.
I've given it some thought and am comfortable with its power level. Keep in mind that druids get limited uses of wild shape so you can't really stack it forever. It caps at 10 minutes.
3) Primeval shape is a really cool idea and will help out pre-level 16 druid out a lot. However, its worth noting it wouldn't really ever get used after 15th. You end up spending all your time in elemental form, shapechanged, or combat casting and using your wildshape charges on your other cool new abilities :).
Yeah, Primeval works in Greater Wild Shape and Wild shape but not Elemental Shape. Enhance Wild Shape (new spell) and Savage Mobility, though, work in all shapes.
4) New wiz/sorc feats would be kinda cool. Especially some type of metamagic/arcane defense counter for timestop if possible. Just a thought.
Technically they got the whole line of summoning feats. We gave wizards a plethora of new spells last hak update so figured we'd give other classes some love this time around. I'll probably eventually add wizard/sorcerer feats; there are some pretty cool flavourful ones.
5)If you guys do get around to new shapes I would love to see mist elementals become an elemental option, could open up a lot of room for a half vistani mist hag type of character which i think would be exciting. Also giving the previous elementals more special abilities would be fun. The air elemental gets one and so does the water but not fire or earth. A not powerful rock throw and burning hands respectively could be nice and give some flavor to those forms.
I'd have to check if Elemental Shape is modified in Ravenloft but in PnP, it's clarified (and been clarified by WOTC) that Elemental Shape only works for those four elementals. Mist Elemental (Blood, Grave and Pyre too) is essentially a "mist" version of the regular Air Elemental. It would be cool though. At some point we may add more wild shapes but it takes more time to implement those properly so not this time around anyway.
Well, it all sounds really cool thanks for all the work you guys are doing EO.
-
Armor Skin
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Fighter 17+, Con 15+, Toughness.
Specifics: The character gains a natural +2 bonus to armor class.
Use: Automatic.
First off I really love that this suggestion has been taken up. Thank you. It's high time pure Fighters got some love and this is a great way to do it!
I've been thinking about the Con 15+ requirement however and I think this is possibly a bit harsh. For Dwarves or any race with +Con, it's a What-I-Was-Going-To-Do-Anyway -- a requirement that's not really an obstacle. For Humans and most races, it requires an investment of one Attribute level-up or spending 2 Attribute points at creation; and for Elves and such with -Con, it represents a serious investment indeed.
Yet I think Human, Elf, etc. Fighters could all benefit from a boost as much as Dwarf Fighters. Thus I would argue for removing or lowering the Con requirement (how about 13? This requires some investment in CON without making it excessively punitive for Elves) and adding a Feat requirement (e.g. Great Fortitude) to make up for it.
-
Armor Skin
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Fighter 17+, Con 15+, Toughness.
Specifics: The character gains a natural +2 bonus to armor class.
Use: Automatic.
First off I really love that this suggestion has been taken up. Thank you. It's high time pure Fighters got some love and this is a great way to do it!
I've been thinking about the Con 15+ requirement however and I think this is possibly a bit harsh. For Dwarves or any race with +Con, it's a What-I-Was-Going-To-Do-Anyway -- a requirement that's not really an obstacle. For Humans and most races, it requires an investment of one Attribute level-up or spending 2 Attribute points at creation; and for Elves and such with -Con, it represents a serious investment indeed.
Yet I think Human, Elf, etc. Fighters could all benefit from a boost as much as Dwarf Fighters. Thus I would argue for removing or lowering the Con requirement (how about 13? This requires some investment in CON without making it excessively punitive for Elves) and adding a Feat requirement (e.g. Great Fortitude) to make up for it.
Agreed on this point. Even just dropping it to 14 would make it easier. You already have to drop a feat and cross-class tumble to get the same AC benefit that tumble would provide alone for other classes.
-
You can put points into con instead of straight str.
-
You can put points into con instead of straight str.
Yes, that's literally true. Are you offering a balance counter-argument?
-
The requirement for Armor Skin seems reasonable to me. Sure it requires a small investment in CON, meaning you'd have to sacrifice other useful feats. But that is balance and precisely the point. We want warriors made of all sort of builts, we don't encourage the one unique built that has it all.
-
The requirement for Armor Skin seems reasonable to me. Sure it requires a small investment in CON, meaning you'd have to sacrifice other useful feats. But that is balance and precisely the point. We want warriors made of all sort of builts, we don't encourage the one unique built that has it all.
It favours Dwarf-style builds, mildly penalises Human Fighters and more heavily penalises Elf fighters. I don't understand how you reconcile that with diversity? Indeed if it encourage Elves to put points into CON so they end up looking built like Dwarf Fighters, I would argue the opposite effect is achieved.
-
Unless you mean that Armor Skin is meant to be some sort of CON orientated counter-balance to Shield Parry (with Dex 15). Which I find un-intuitive, since Shield Parry is not a Fighter-only Feat. I think that's an implicit realisation that Shield Parry is a bit too strong, but OK, let's not retread that ground.
-
Armor Skin is not a response to any other feature. Take it for what is is, a new option for pure fighters. If dwarves seem favored it is only due to their natural hardiness, just as elves are favored where agility feats are concerned, whereas humans have the advantage of an extra skill point per level and of an extra feat. Each has advantages and disadvantages it would be counter productive to Ievel that. A predisposition to certain trait is not an obligation to follow stereotypes. I understand elves are less likely to take that feat but that is not in itself a problem.
-
MAB, did you read my initial post? Or just my response to booksarefun666? :/
Surely ALL Fighters need a bit of help. This Feat ought to help ALL pure Fighters equally, not Dwarf Fighters in particular. Heck, the original requirement for Armor Skin has no CON requirement, just needs a character to be of epic level. The CON requirement was added on because presumably EO felt that that merely putting it on offer for Fighter 17+ characters was too easy. It's an arbitrary choice, and I'm pointing out the consequences. That's why I suggested replacing the CON requirement with extra Feat requirements instead.
Again: are Dwarf Fighers in a weak place versus Human or Elf Fighters? I mean, I was already planning on making a Dwarf Fighter here so I'm not arguing for my own sake, but that CON requirement just validates my race choice. It's not actually going to cost me anything in particular to take Armor Skin, as a Dwarf Fighter; I was planning on taking CON 16 anyway.
It's a no-brainer choice for Dwarves and a hurdle for Elves, when I believe it ought to be a boon for Fighters across all races. That's the issue.
-
You could make the same argument for any stat-gated feat. Overwhelming Critical requires 19 Str so gnome fighters are penalized, those Charisma feats are mostly unavailable to half orc fighters, dwarves will likely be unable to get Shield Parry, etc. We could remove all gates and make feats available for all without any requirements; it would please everyone but that’s not how we chose to do it.
As a character, I want you to have to make choices, that by going down a certain path you close off others. Clearly that’s not your philosophy and that’s fine but you can’t argue that your way is definitely the only right one.
-
To add to what EO said, we never make choices arbitrarily. This is an Epic feat. The original requirement is level 21+. It was decided only after careful considerations to lower that to 17+ ftr only and tie it to the concept of higher AC through hardiness in accord with the philosophy stated by EO.
-
You could make the same argument for any stat-gated feat. Overwhelming Critical requires 19 Str so gnome fighters are penalized, those Charisma feats are mostly unavailable to half orc fighters, dwarves will likely be unable to get Shield Parry, etc. We could remove all gates and make feats available for all without any requirements; it would please everyone but that’s not how we chose to do it.
You realise those are hardly comparable, right? Strength is fundamental in combat so anybody choosing to play a halfling or gnome fighter knows what they're getting into; and besides, most Fighters want to put their extra Attribute points into Strength. All the Charisma Feats are nice, but hardly universally required. I can happily play a CHA dump Fighter and not suffer. As for Shield Parry, that's hardly without its own debates, is it?
But every Fighter wants AC. Armor Skin was suggested for the purpose of generally bettering a class everyone agrees is weak -- the pure Fighter. I don't understand how one can look at what's on offer now and not think that Elf Fighters are getting the short end of the stick -- unless one happens to believe that Shield Parry is strong enough to compensate for that, but MAB explicitly stated that Armor Skin isn't a response to Shield Parry, so I'm confused...
As a character, I want you to have to make choices, that by going down a certain path you close off others. Clearly that’s not your philosophy and that’s fine but you can’t argue that your way is definitely the only right one.
Hey, I'm all for creating design trees, but I think the Dev team's overall concept of balance is not fully coherent and not fully explored. One consequence of the current choice is that it disfavours Elf sword-and-board Fighters. Why? Surely this is not supposed to be an exotic sub-par choice, like Gnome Fighters or Half-Orc Bards. Frankly it feels like you guys are creating suboptimal branches without realising it.
But hey, I'm done arguing against my selfish self-interest and I'll just be glad my Dwarf Fighter is gonna be awesome.
-
Noob question here:
Natural AC doesn't stack anyway, does it?
So a fighter buffed by a wizard/druid without this feat has no disadvantages against a fighter with this feat, after both fighters are buffed?
-
The "natural" AC granted by Armor Skin does not in fact fall under the "Natural Armor" category, much like Dragon Disciple's AC boosts don't.
A Dwarven Defender's AC boost, however, does. And a dwarf taking this prestige class may never have Armor Skin,
despite being perhaps the most easily qualified for it.
-
Wow then this skill is pretty damn cool. Makes pure fighters a viable thing.
-
Stat-gated feats are fine but not when they are hidden behind such an obscene number. Fighters, unless dwarves or gnomes, will most commonly not be invested in 16 CON.
Just my two cents. I'm easily throwing my lot in with aprog in this.
-
It's only 15, not 16, right?
Is that truly "obscene"? It's pretty easy for a human fighter to get 15 Con by level 17 with even an 18 Str, without completely sabotaging your other stats.
-
Just to lay out some numbers: let's say I'm committed to playing a full plate + tower shield Fighter. STR 16, DEX 12, CON 15.
As a Dwarf, to reach CON 15 costs 5 Attribute points at creation. You can end up with STR 21 at max level.
As a Human, to reach CON 15 costs 8 Attribute points or creation. Or; you can spend 6 Attribute points for CON 15 at the opportunity cost of having STR 20 at max level. A small, but significant, uptick in cost.
As an Elf, to reach CON 15 costs 13 Attribute points; but I get 2 back from DEX, so the net is 11 Attribute points. Or; you can spend 6 Attribute points for CON 12 at the opportunity cost of having STR 18 at max level. Or some combination. But here the difference in cost is clearly evident.
You can look at the above discrepancy and justify it in two different ways.
- You can ignore all other Feats, as was MAB's initial argument, and take the Feat as given. If you don't like it, don't play Elf Fighters.
- You adopt a holistic perspective and look at all other Feats in some Ability-gated strategic choice tree, as was EO's argument; in which case the existence of a feat like Armor Skin for CON is balanced by some choice like Shield Parry for DEX, or so on. Which means that playing an Elf Fighter who doesn't go for Shield Parry becomes a suboptimal strategy.
You have to admit that it's a pretty strange artefact of design where the full plate/tower shield Elf Fighter is relegated to a suboptimal "fun" build like Half-Orc Bards or Gnome STR Fighters.
-
Welp, suboptimal maybe, but playable. My justification would be Elves are a low Con race, so any feat that requires high Con is going to be harder for them--just as anything that favors high Dex is going to be easier. It's not so much that Elves shouldn't play a fighter, as that as fighters or any class they (as a race) will tend not to be based on having damage-absorbing bodies but relying on their quickness and coordination. How many 18 Str Elf fighters with Elven dexterity and armor skin should there be running around? :) Dwarves' favored class, in contrast, is Fighter.
If wanting to build for this feat as an Elf, I would definitely not buy the Con at creation. Start with 12 and take three of the four points at 4, 8, 12, and 16 to get there by 17th.
Anyway, I don't have strong feelings about this one way or the other. I just found Pav's description of a 15 requirement as obscene a bit of hyperbole :)
-
Anyway, I don't have strong feelings about this one way or the other. I just found Pav's description of a 15 requirement as obscene a bit of hyperbole :)
As aprog explained, it is not in fact a hyperbole in the cases I myself ascribed, e.g. not a gnome or a dwarf. Having an odd constitution score for a single feat, is, also, shooting yourself in the foot in the term of ability point investment.
-
There is nothing wrong with a 15 CON score. A simple endurance spell or potion at the opportun time can get you up to 20 and make up for that slight difference with a score of 16. More HP , higher fortitude, it is always good reasons for a high CON regardless of feats. It might not be your preference in a built , but a shot in the foot? Hell no.
What I'd like to see though are even more CON based feats. So if you have suggestions, from official D20 sources, do provide them and we'll assess if they would be a good fit for the module.
-
I agree that using 1 ability score to get 2 solid AC that stacks is pretty damn sweet.
That said, con buffs are just a deathwish in PoTM with the way our bleeding system currently works.
I for one avoid them like the plague.
-
As aprog explained, it is not in fact a hyperbole in the cases I myself ascribed, e.g. not a gnome or a dwarf. Having an odd constitution score for a single feat, is, also, shooting yourself in the foot in the term of ability point investment.
When I've experimented around, it seems difficult not to either overpay for a stat or wind up at level 20 without an odd stat. A PC begins with 78 points and gets 5 points along the road, or 83 total.
Getting 2 AC for that odd stat is, as Troukk says, sweet :)
-
-Added Axiomatic Strike.
-
That said, con buffs are just a deathwish in PoTM with the way our bleeding system currently works.
I for one avoid them like the plague.
Echoing this. I used to drink Endurance potions, thinking they were the bee's knees til I'd fall, then go straight to death when they ran out a minute later. Now I actually tell my buffers never to buff my con. Ravenloft has ruined Endurance utterly.
No real idea why every spell duration has to be nerfed. Changing scale does nothing other than changing frequency, which means you've really not changed anything at all other than making people rest and recast more often. Great if you... want to annoy... your... players? I ...guess?
-
Or maybe it cuts down on how many people are able to just walk around full stat/AC/true seeing/spell resistance buffed 24/7. Makes it more of an investment instead of just doing it once when you log in and being good for the whole next day/night cycle.
This forces people to actually think about what buffs they cast and when, or put actual effort into being someone that stays buffed all the time. Not being able to easily have all your wards up all the time sort of adds to the "something might happen to me" feeling that's supposed to be present. It also lends to tactics and RP, especially outside of dungeons. I know that as a player of an assassin, I'd try to watch players and get an idea for what their buff patterns were. If you saw someone outside at hour 6, and they were still there at hour 18 and hadn't gone off to buff, they probably are either only walking around with the long duration buffs or they don't buff up at all. Or if they do, you see them walk off to rebuff at certain hours and it helps establish a pattern of behavior to hit them at their weakest.
Also, it means that if you're going to cross-class a caster class for buffs, you have to consider durations. It actually rewards pure caster classes because the buffs last longer, but if you're just dipping into a caster class the buffs will be short term.
And it's not "every spell duration" that was shortened. As a matter of fact, all of the rounds/level spells got buffed significantly by becoming 1 turn + rounds/level. That's huge for things like haste, tensers, divine power, ect.
-
The spell buff duration thing is pretty relative, to me, at least. It might also be to others. I for one, welcome the consideration for longer hastes and other spells that have immense tactical utility, but piss poor duration in the past.
Be it short or long buffs, you will find a way to play around it I think. If you don't, and are too entrenched in your old preferences, then... oh well!
-
And indeed the typical duration for the minute/level buffs, e.g. Bull's, is 1 hour + 1 turn/level, in an effort to slant them away from benefiting high levels disproportionately.
-
Is there any chance we could make many people's dreams come true and add quarter staff to the list of weapons useable in Unorthodox Flurry?
-
Is there any chance we could make many people's dreams come true and add quarter staff to the list of weapons useable in Unorthodox Flurry?
That's been discussed at length on the Discord; the unfortunate reply is no, it's not feasible because of the way the hardcoded stuff works.
-
Yes, I see that the post was already answered in the thread previously and I just missed it. Thanks for clarifying for me.
-
As aprog explained, it is not in fact a hyperbole in the cases I myself ascribed, e.g. not a gnome or a dwarf. Having an odd constitution score for a single feat, is, also, shooting yourself in the foot in the term of ability point investment.
When I've experimented around, it seems difficult not to either overpay for a stat or wind up at level 20 without an odd stat. A PC begins with 78 points and gets 5 points along the road, or 83 total.
Getting 2 AC for that odd stat is, as Troukk says, sweet :)
For that high of a level investment, for a pure class that otherwise with that 15 con would actually suffer more than it'd gain.
Yeah, no, it's not actually worth it when you can invest less ability points and take a rogue cross class for much more AC from tumble.
-
Is there any chance we could make many people's dreams come true and add quarter staff to the list of weapons useable in Unorthodox Flurry?
That's been discussed at length on the Discord; the unfortunate reply is no, it's not feasible because of the way the hardcoded stuff works.
I am a little curious though, I've seen it done before (without haks even, Mithreas is a genius).
Anyways, is there any ETA on when we might expect this? Having a pretty borked character from last update and sitting around waiting is not a fun experience...
-
-Added Expert Dungeoneer
-
There is nothing wrong with a 15 CON score. A simple endurance spell or potion at the opportun time can get you up to 20 and make up for that slight difference with a score of 16. More HP , higher fortitude, it is always good reasons for a high CON regardless of feats. It might not be your preference in a built , but a shot in the foot? Hell no.
What I'd like to see though are even more CON based feats. So if you have suggestions, from official D20 sources, do provide them and we'll assess if they would be a good fit for the module.
Crazy thought, but what about allowing pure figthers with high constitution (17+ maybe) to take the first level of Epic Damage Reduction? the 3/- it provides is less than a barbarian or dwarven defender gets so it doesn't crib on them too much and it would require a conscious investment toward tankiness over offense (sacrificing strength and dex for more con) but might make that CON investment more attractive at the same time.
Just a (literal) shower thought.
-
Request:
A significant and common complaint about the monk class is that the AB isn't quite up to snuff with the role the class is supposed to play. It's also the only middle BAB class that doesn't have some form of self-buff, UMD, or Taunt to help mitigate this.
In a perfect world, I'd love to see monk be made into a full BAB class to bring it more in line with something like Ranger.. But given that this isn't likely to be the case, is there any way we could allow monks access to the Greater Weapon Focus feat?
-
Request:
A significant and common complaint about the monk class is that the AB isn't quite up to snuff with the role the class is supposed to play. It's also the only middle BAB class that doesn't have some form of self-buff, UMD, or Taunt to help mitigate this.
In a perfect world, I'd love to see monk be made into a full BAB class to bring it more in line with something like Ranger.. But given that this isn't likely to be the case, is there any way we could allow monks access to the Greater Weapon Focus feat?
I liked a suggestion I saw in a previous thread suggesting a feat of some form to let Monk's temporarily add their Wisdom modifier to their AB at the cost of a stunning fist use. Would be less of a crib on Fighter's already limited territory while still addressing the issue of not being able to hit things.
-
Request:
A significant and common complaint about the monk class is that the AB isn't quite up to snuff with the role the class is supposed to play. It's also the only middle BAB class that doesn't have some form of self-buff, UMD, or Taunt to help mitigate this.
In a perfect world, I'd love to see monk be made into a full BAB class to bring it more in line with something like Ranger.. But given that this isn't likely to be the case, is there any way we could allow monks access to the Greater Weapon Focus feat?
I liked a suggestion I saw in a previous thread suggesting a feat of some form to let Monk's temporarily add their Wisdom modifier to their AB at the cost of a stunning fist use. Would be less of a crib on Fighter's already limited territory while still addressing the issue of not being able to hit things.
I mean. That would sort of help? but it would also make the other stunning fist options even less useful. Given that fighter is a full AB class already, and that GWF can get them into pretty ridiculous AB territories, I don't see it stepping on fighter's toes. Even with GWF+WF, a monk is still going to have less AB than the equivalent fighter would have without any feats at all.
-
It won't and shouldn't have a fighters AB, but the enormous amount of other differences and advantages they have should make up for it. If a monk had a fighters equivalent AB, they'd have to miss out in other ways, not least being that incredibly potent Spell Resistance, their excellent saves, mobility, and AC, all of which are better than a fighters, as well as having a much higher number of attacks per round. Giving it the same BAB as a fighter is a rather ridiculous request considering that the monk is superior in all four of those categories, and the BAB is the 'only' thing the fighter has over the monk. There were quite a few buffs to monks in previous updates, I'm not sure this is really quite necessary.
-
No one suggested granting to monk exactly the same AB , as fighter got. Just one feat to improve it. Clearly, GWF for monks shouldn't be available on lower lvls, allowing them to compete with fighter's AB early on, having all other neat abilities at the same time. Besides, while I was playing monk, I get feeling that increased amount of unarmed attacks per round can be utilized only when monk is warded by wizard and cleric at the same time. Most part of monk attacks still keep missing target, if character lacking clerical ab buffs.
Just my two cents.
-
It won't and shouldn't have a fighters AB, but the enormous amount of other differences and advantages they have should make up for it. If a monk had a fighters equivalent AB, they'd have to miss out in other ways, not least being that incredibly potent Spell Resistance, their excellent saves, mobility, and AC, all of which are better than a fighters, as well as having a much higher number of attacks per round. Giving it the same BAB as a fighter is a rather ridiculous request considering that the monk is superior in all four of those categories, and the BAB is the 'only' thing the fighter has over the monk. There were quite a few buffs to monks in previous updates, I'm not sure this is really quite necessary.
As stated in the post you were replying to, even if monks got GWF, they would still not have "Fighter AB." Even with both feats taken, they'd have 15+1+2=18 AB. Without any feats whatsoever, a fighter has 20. With those same feats, a fighter gets 23 and the fighter has more feats to spare on them.
The previous buffs were okay, but none of them are useful if a monk can't perform its primary function -- punching things in the face.
-
Maybe discussion about Monk buffing goes to seperate thread ? i keep coming back here to read update on new feats and i find just same old discussion about Monk.
-
Maybe discussion about Monk buffing goes to seperate thread ? i keep coming back here to read update on new feats and i find just same old discussion about Monk.
+1
-
All look very good and fair to me.
-
Wish I had noted the newer feats before. D'oh! My bad.
[Rhetra quietly writes down Crossbow Sniper and Axiomatic Strike with a note saying "Purchase next time at store..."]