Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Public (OOC) => Setting and Lore Discussion => Topic started by: Iconoclast on October 31, 2006, 12:46:00 PM
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We all know that Barovians will not hestitate to burn anyone suspected of witchcraft.
According to one of the transition screens, Barovians only accept healing magics.
My most recent character is a Barovian guard, so I am formulating his perspective by reading up and thinking about the setting.
I would appreciate some discussion here based off of an example taken from a recent quest.
Recently, he was given the charge of working with the Inquistor and some outlanders to hunt down a dark fey witch.
During the quest, a few outlanders began using magic which placed me into an interesting situation. One character became coated in bark skin, which certainly looks from a Barovian point of view like witchcraft. There were quite a few other acts that seemed "unnatural" and that were not of a healing nature.
So I decided to turn a blind eye to it and not react to it ic. However, these situations are bound to come up again and again, so it would help to talk about these player/character actions regarding magic use.
I know that our insict might be to buff up before a big battle, but I think we should put more emphasis on the role playing and setting.
What do others think? Should I continue to turn a blind eye to such occurances, or should any character who is percieved of using witchcraft suffer the ic consequences.
From my Barovian's point of view, anything other than healing magic is dabbeling in the dark arts and should be reckoned with.
From a Barovian piont of view, he isn't going to see a difference between a mage, cleric, sorcerer, ranger, rogue, or druid using "witchery." Its all about what he sees. If someone is healing someone, that magic can be tolerated. But what about protective spells? Bark skin? Stone skin?
-Iconoclastic, The Metaphysical Club
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IMHO you would be completely right to act suspiciously/holler out which/ or attempt any actions a guard would deem neccesary on any PC using magic near you. In truth I won't even walk near the guards with my sorceror PC when he has any sort of buff on him that has a visual effect. (i.e. endure elements, or protection from evil) Personally if I was a xenophobic gaurd I would think one of two things. The POC in front of me has been cursed by a witch, or said PC is a witch. Either way I've got a big problem with them.
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Cant kill everyone out to help you tho.. but make notes and point them out to the witch hunter when you get back..
hey boss we burn thisone this one and this one too :lol:
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Right I'm not saying taht you should kill them on the spot. But an appropriate reaction would be well placed in my opinion. I guess if someone walked up to my front door covered in bark, I'd probably freak out and scream demon. I'd probably also light them on fire... but sometimes I'm CE in RL. FEEL THE ACRONYM!
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Right...
Barovians are still uncomfortable with healing magics, and try and stay away from most Divine magic, although they don't consider it witch craft. Save for Druids, But many Druids can just pass as 'Modern' preists.
Mm, But in this case, I'd probably go with the "*Coughs, rubbing his/her guard badge a bit, mostly trying to catch the attention of the others*" and have your character turn a blind eye but report it to the guard staff for investigation. Unless he is bribed, O course.
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It's witch craft, they're probally dabbling with demons even and you should have them burnt at the stake as soon as possible!
That's about it, Barovians are xenophobic and they fear magic. So lets put it this way, modern terms. Your character is a member of the KKK back in the 40's. It's midnight and he's out with his bethrothed heading home. Down the street is the darkest skin black man he's ever seen, and he has a bat in his hands.(and since this was a group of people for your Barovian character) Now you notice there are others with him, two buddies.. Just as dark with chains. You have a gun in your right pocket, and you have to pass them to get home. You can already feel the color drained from your face and those damn darkies will probally rape your dear Velma!
What do you do?
That's pretty much it roughly, the bat + skin color = magic user and the hatred of african descended people is the xenophobia..
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It seemed to me that some of the involved players were vets. So I found it a bit surprising, as right before busting down a door to storm in on the dark fey witch, everyone just started doing their "mumbo jumbo" magic and buffing up without a care.
When outlanders are with their own kind in a dungeon somewhere, that might be fine, even a habit (though hopefully not all together without some small risk).
But they were in company with a witch-hunter as well as a Barovian guard.
So I was left wondering if the players were being mindful of the setting or did they knowingly accept the risk of what could bring on dire consequences for using "witchcraft."
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A large majority of players just get into a routine and forget about the setting. Even on DM quests, more so then.. it seems folks have gotten a little to "Well nothing is going to happen any way, never does." conditioned..
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Well, I had posted something longer but the joys of crashes..anyhow.
I should remind everyone that natives do not hate and persecute magic users so much that they fear them. Barovians, guards included as they are just peasants with a halberd, fear magic, the night, werewolves, vampires, calibans, the unnatural, outlanders, Strahd, whatever. They are a people who have learnt to live in fear all their life. They wouldn't try subduing a magic user or a vampire, they likely would pretend it doesn't exist as they do instead of confronting it and if they were nose to nose with one, they would cower and run, not try to beat it.
Also, as commonly used as they are here for reasons of practicality, witch burnings and other religious burnings are an oddity in Barovia. Barovians are a supersticious lot, not a religious or fanatical one. What happens when they do confront "witches" is that a "brave" Barovian will pull out his pitchfork and gather a mob and with said mob, they will drag the witch out of her house and on the street where she will either be drowned (in villages near water sources usually) or lynched to death. If the witch were to cast magics or anything, they likely would run in fear. Inquisitors, witch-hunters, demon slayers, whatever are mistrusted by Barovians who see them as religious or institutional fanatics and they don't like that. And if said people are succesful, Barovians will view them with even more suspicion as they think that anyone who can beat the unnatural is likely unnatural himself. They usually find themself unwelcomed and forced to live on the fringe of society or just driven out of Barovia (Cerberus has been roleplaying that with Noigrim).
This is Barovia, not Falkovnia. Magic is not illegal here, neither is being of another race. Guards wouldn't go out of their way to persecute the unnatural creatures because they are just like the peasants, they are generally a fearful lot, a fearful xenophobic lot. A guard would likely turn a blind eye though, if peasants were commiting murder on a witch, because they are just like them. They might join in, but most likely would just ignore it and walk on.
What I would do with Marcus to do it is tip peasants off about a witch, then rile them up enough to have one of them pick up his pitchfork or a torch and then a mob would form to go get the witch, but if said witch would threaten them or anything, they likely would flee.
As for a native's attitude towards magic. We debated that on the rebel boards about adaptation. Since our rebels were put in direct contact with outlanders in and around the outskirts (as they would work around there), they would see a lot more than the general barovians. We realized that in the end, they would likely start to open up more and tolerate more the outlanders and their odd customs while not really liking them. I might quote some of those posts later as they were very informational (our discussions with Ferf and Jay were awesome on the topics of setting and all and really clarified a lot).
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Keep in mind that witchcraft in Barovia is not legal or illegal- it just isn't taken under the account of Barovian law. This isn't because witchery is tolerated by Barovians, but rather due to the ignorance generated by their fear of the unknown. Comparable to modern laws of our world.. the existence of telekinesis, psychic powers, ghosts, hauntings, etc. are widely debated, but ignored by law since the whole population do not accept these things to be real. The same goes for Barovians- there are still many who are in doubt of magic, and have only heard horrible tales of black magic through hushed whispers and rumors.
In the Barovian's perspective- there is no question of justice when it comes to the execution of a witch, since they believe that whatever dark powers the witches/warlocks had perpetuated in their castings are beyond the reach of their normal understanding. This fear of the unknown drives them to exact the only form of retribution (punishment for mingling with "darker powers") they know upon "witches"- the pyre-fires of a wooden stake.
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Just a note, in large groups human fear usually turns to hate and or rage. They'd be more likely to rip the magic user apart than flee.. just an observation.
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Nah, not really there Cerb, you're thinking of Falkovnia, not Barovia. Barovians aren't a zealous lot, they are a fearful lot (well most Falkovnians are too, but those that aren't are already enough trouble). And the main reason it isn't illegal is because the Count is a magic user himself (he craves it and burgomasters know that...remember how he found his first Tatyana..when he was buying spellbooks from a boyar who had found them).
They chose to pretend to ignore the existence of magic usually because it makes their life simplier, because they believe they are safe then. Just as how even though they "suspect" the von Zarovich have dabbled in the dark arts for a while now, they prefer ignoring it and living their lives. They won't burn witches usually, that's more Tepestian, Ezrite or Banite way of dealing with witches and Barovians mistrust public institutions and religions.
Though Barovians believe in magic, the vast majority of them have never seen it in practice, at least outside of the local cleric. Most folk regard magic as a secret as old as time and riddled with spiritual risks too terrible to contemplate. Arcane magic is practiced only in secret in Barovia, as the common folk believe that all such power is a gift granted by demons. These fell blessings can be bestowed in the womb (sorcerers) or deliberately sought out by the deranged (wizards), but it makes little difference to the fearful peasant mind. Even bards must be careful not to reveal themselves as anything but wandering performers in this land. Since popular opinion holds that arcane spellcasters are unquestionably the minions of evil, the agents of the boyars and burgomasters rarely discourage violence against them. Villages are rife with tales of suspected spellcasters lynched in full view of idle Barovian soldiers.
Divine magic as practiced by clerics is regarded as spiritually pure, at least when the spellcaster in question serves a virtuous deity. Nonetheless, Barovians who do not share a cleric's zealous devotion to a particular god are often fearful of the priest's magical power. Like arcane magic, the divine magic of druids is thought to flow directly from a demonic source; Barovians predictably regard such priests of nature with fear and contempt.
As a people, the Barovians tend to be suspicious of organized institutions, and as such they often have little love for clergy. The vast majority of ethnic Barovians are not religious; the reasons, I discovered, can be as numerous as the folk one presses on the matter. Most, however, believe that the nebulous gods of antiquity are literally missing or dead and that churches are sanctuaries for pretenders and fools (When this Barovia was created in the mists, they quickly realized the gods couldn't communicate with them anymore...). They seldom frequent their churches except when attending funerals. In fact, even in settlements with a functioning temple, weddings are commonly held in the local inn. Only the most optimistic young couples arrange for church weddings (that's mainly becuase young brides tend to disappear after an announced wedding...).
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Regardless of their professed faith, if any, Barovians adhere to a simplistic, somewhat muddled cosmology. While they believe in a heaven and hell, which are called Refugiu and Iadul in Balok, such otherworldly locations are more folk beliefs than facets of a refined cosmology. Refugiu is a vague and mysterious place, not so much a paradise as a place of rest, where the weariness of the mortal coil is shed for eternal spiritual slumber. As with most heavenly realms, Refugiu is thought to lie above the mortal world, beyond the firmament of stars. The souls of most mortals, even those who were generally wicked in life, are thought to journey to Refugiu upon death.
In contrast to Refugiu's ambiguity, most Barovians have a vivid conception of Iadul as a place of unspeakable horror. Fragments of the ancient Barovian epic Flight from the Balinoks describe Iadul as a fetid pit of disease that stretches into the bowels of the earth. Such a place does not serve to punish evildoers in any cosmic sense. It is merely the abode of demons, and any mortal who finds his way there forged his own damnation without the gods' judgment. Unfortunately, demons are thought to be able to claw their way up into the mortal world to wreak havoc on humankind. Such fiends are generally seen as agents of destruction and perversity interested in humanity only insomuch as it can assist in furthering their own dark desires.
All Barovians celebrate the same seasonal festivals widely observed throughout the Core's temperate regions. Perhaps due to their druidic heritage, the Forfarians hold the four solar holidays as especially holy.
Some Barovians, particularly the elderly, whisper that the long-lived von Zaroviches have delved into black magics to extend their life spans unnaturally - a theory perhaps familiar to my patron - and that they continue to spend their time in the pursuit of blasphemous arcane knowledge.
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And the main reason it isn't illegal is because the Count is a magic user himself (he craves it and burgomasters know that...remember how he found his first Tatyana..when he was buying spellbooks from a boyar who had found them).
I'd believe that's more of a secondary reason. That's pretty much a spoiler, since it isn't confirmed public knowledge and only a rumor among peasantry. I am aware that mobs lynchings occur alot in Falkovnia, but it still happens in Barovia, though not as zealously (what you said).
The main and primary reason is a psychological one of human nature- the fear and denial of the unknown.
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Just a note, in large groups human fear usually turns to hate and or rage. They'd be more likely to rip the magic user apart than flee.. just an observation.
True, but I think the best way to wrap you brain around it is to look at a modern day riot. The mob will do whatever the hell they feel like, even going so far as to beat/kill/destroy anything in their path, but put some cops out there with tear gas, and the mob crumbles into a terror filled beast.
To convert this into the topic at hand, the peasents would most like lynch/drown/burn someone they thought was a witch, but should that witch throw a fireball into the air/ shoot a line of lightning out, the mob would probably flee.
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I've learned a few things while reading through this thread. It seems that a reading of source material, like most texts, will invite different interpretations.
At this moment, these are my open-ended conclusions:
1. On average Barovians are more fearful of witchcraft than outright hostile.
What I mean is that my native pc guard's first response is unlikely to be pure hostility with the intent of killing the percieved witch (but a lot will always depend on each circumstance.)
2. If he percieves signs of witchcraft, such as someone being coated with barkskin and the such, he will respond with a degree of fear, suspicion, and hostility. If the possible "witch" is obviously doing evil, he may be more reactive on the spot. If the possible "witch" is just questionable, (such as being coated with barkskin, but then blasting through the door to battle a dark fey witch) then he will report it to his commanders as well as place a few words among his kin (the local gossip which could in the long run lead up to mob hostility.)
3. Fear. One of my pc guard's greatest fears is of witchcraft. (Despite being very disciplined, he dropped his heavycross bow when first beholding the dark fey witch's horror). But how that fear takes shape will depend on the situation. I think we can all agree that there are various types of fear. We have comic fear, where someone's legs shakes or they piss their pants. Then we have the type of fear that will forever wreck someone's mind. I do not see Barovian people as being intrinscly fearful. The fact is, they have been given good reason to fear the night and arcane magic. They would be ignorant and foolish not be fearful. They are a people capable of rational thought, but they are in a misty land that is dominated by the irrational (gothic). My pc's fear would be competing with his strong sense of duty, which should be of some worth-while inner conflict for character development.
4. Rational vs. Irrational. This will be how I approch fear. If my pc guard can rationally understand the "evil" percieved, his fear is manageable. But if he is confronted with something completely irrational, something his mind cannot make sense of, then he may find himself outside of his own control, dominated by his fear of the unknown.
5. Repeated occurance with the irrational or "witchcraft." As it is, the last thing he would want to be within the guard, is a witch hunter. But while in the line of duty, if he comes face to face with witchcraft over and over again, his fear may become more manageable.
Like I said, my interpretations are open-ended. I'll be reading more source materials and bouncing ideas and questions within the forum here.
I imagine that these open-ended questions may produce an rp resource of value for any further Barovian pcs.
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I think Icon's made a lot of good conclusions here. Though is I play a guard native, I'm going one of two ways.. our tright terrified of witch's, or fearful to the point of hatred.
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Barovians spend their life in fear, they are conditionned to be that way more or less. It's one of the ways they are so easily dominated. From birth until death fear rules their lives, fear of the night, of the unknown, fear of the authorities, fear of the unnatural, fear of others, etc. It's no wonder that Castle Ravenloft has no guards and that no one wants to betray Strahd, everyone, even the most mischevious burgomasters and boyars would dare do anything (when he was regaining his strenght for fifteen years, the taxes were still deposited in the vault despite the fact no one was there to enforce it).
Most Barovians will never see a vrolock or a werewolf, they won't see the fey or demons or anything, but they just are afraid of them, they are raised as such. It's hard to come up with a modern equivalent as we are in an age of reason and knowledge while Barovia is very much a land of ignorance. It's one of the reasons there are no guards out at night beside the one poor sod doing gate duty, guards wouldn't want to be out at night more than anyone because they know that their halberd wouldn't save them from the Old Night.
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I can appreciate EO's emphasis on the degree and prevalence of fear in the daily lives of Barovians.
I concur. However, I want to make sure we don't take away the complexity that makes role playing humans and their fears worth while.
While Barovians categorically may be a fearful people, in that their fears control many aspects of their daily lives, they are still humans who can experience a wide arrange of emotions; courage, love, hatred, a desire for justice, retribution, or vengence, a few may even dare to hope, etc. etc..
There are other aspects to the Barovian personality, as I see it; ethnic pride, a value of kin, a respect for tradition and "common sense."
If my Barovian pc is that unfortunate sod who stands guard at night, alone, at the western gates, as fearful as he will be, he still has a sense of duty and honor that is in some aspects, stronger than the outlander who has no emotional or cultural ties to the people sleeping within Vallaki. He serves something larger than himself on that wall, his family and kin, and that can at least be a lifeline when confronted with the horrors that may threaten to drown one's courage.
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True about other human qualities, I'll try to dig to find the part about the Barovian hero (the adventurer) and retype it here. Barovian natives are not a uniform lot of course, they're not all robots with the same personality (and they certainly have more than one trait), that's the general feel of Barovians. Among that, you got Barovians who are Vardo, others who are Verzi, you have Barovians who believe in a New Dawn (Morninglord), Barovians who are wanting to take down Strahd, others who serve the Count blindly, others who are guards for the sake of a better life, etc. But, the majority of Barovians are peasants who live a fairly dull and oppressed life (the Village of Barovia is perhaps the dullest place in Ravenloft).
'sides, I agree with the points raised. Barovians aren't one-sided and most descriptions are made for DM's to make NPC's and a feel of the place. A PC is three-dimensional, he will know feelings for sure and might adapt.
I prefer playing my natives as close to the portrayal in the books because I feel that just like a good albino drow, an outlanderish Barovian hurts the setting a lot (nothing irks me more than seeing "natives" around the campfire chatting the night away with a barkskin-ed elf and some outlanders).
Unrelated to the discussion, but it seems that Barovia may be in the process of coming out of the feudal age. Merchants are rising in power in Barovia and are becoming more and more powerful and more and more independant (which is what really got the Renaissance in motion). I wonder how the Count would react in the long run, him who wants to rule all in Barovia. I would expect some backlash or perhaps in his arrogance, he will not see the changes really.
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That the merchants are rising in power catches my interest, since Marku Vintilia hails from a merchant family. Since merchant families have closer ties to Old Slavic Road (trade route), I imagine they would come into contact more often with outside influences making them at least a tiny bit more 'worldly' than the average Barovian, peasant.
Its also very interesting when considering a Barovian involved in the Vardo and Verzi, who are likely to be exposed to shadow dancing and the arcane; as extremely rare as it would be.
I appreciate the discussion. There are a lot nuances involved in playing a Barovian that are starting to take shape because of it.
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The old noble families who were very powerful before the Terg invasion (the war of silver knives) lost everything to the Count. Now, they are only noble in name and status, but hold barely if any land. Most of the new nobility are agents of the count. Merchants are on the rise since they owe nothing to the Count save their rents, so they have much freedom and are doing good business (since as you pointed out, the Old Slavich is there and everyone has to pass through it) with merchants of other domains. Anyhow, quotes.
In the villages, however, free tenants of the Count are commonplace, and most craftsmen and merchants owe nothing to the von Zaroviches save their monthly rent and the occasional kickback to a burgomaster's agent.
Barovia's resources are primarily agricultural, and its economic influence remains minimal when compared to titans such as Darkon or Nova Vaasa. Barovia has maintained continuous, healthy trade with its neighbors for centuries, however, and such activity is lifeblood to all of the realm's significant settlements. Networks of mercantile interdependence have strengthened considerably in recent years. A triangular web of ventures and alliances between merchants in Barovia, Kartakass, and Invidia are contributing to the gradual rise of wealthy merchant families in Barovia, a phenomenon seen in more advanced societies throughout the Core. Strahd, for the time being, seems to have no particular objection to this accumulation of power. How long this state of affairs can last remains to be seen, as Strahd is not known for suffering shifty merchants with political ambitions.
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I was one of those said characters that was buffing outside the door to the dark fey's ritual. And Rhovannion knew it was a calculated risk... he really doesn't care about or fear anything anymore (least of all death), and especially the Inquisitor or guard (yes, he's lost his mind, if you know anything about his story and friends you know why, or go read his biography for some OOC insight :D) he's been accused of witchcraft and worse and knows he doesn't have a reputation to save or protect.
I did expect some sort of reaction from the Inquisitor and if I remember Marku did react (quite appropriately) and I was getting fairly tense about becoming the persecuted and being burnt along with the drow, although Rho did say before casting that he would heal or raise any who fell to the dark fey , so he tries to soften the blow when he can, but he's not gonna not throw the punch... but again Rho is as chaotic as it get's and didn't give a damn about a whole lot except that the drow inside that door had embarassed him and he was gonna kill him for it. By the way, kudos to you Iconoclast , I applaud your rping of fear and wonder , something you don't see a whole lot and I appreciated it.
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I was one of those said characters that was buffing outside the door to the dark fey's ritual. And Rhovannion knew it was a calculated risk... he really doesn't care about or fear anything anymore (least of all death), and especially the Inquisitor or guard (yes, he's lost his mind, if you know anything about his story and friends you know why, or go read his biography for some OOC insight :D) he's been accused of witchcraft and worse and knows he doesn't have a reputation to save or protect.
I did expect some sort of reaction from the Inquisitor and if I remember Marku did react (quite appropriately) and I was getting fairly tense about becoming the persecuted and being burnt along with the drow, although Rho did say before casting that he would heal or raise any who fell to the dark fey , so he tries to soften the blow when he can, but he's not gonna not throw the punch... but again Rho is as chaotic as it get's and didn't give a damn about a whole lot except that the drow inside that door had embarassed him and he was gonna kill him for it. By the way, kudos to you Iconoclast , I applaud your rping of fear and wonder , something you don't see a whole lot and I appreciated it.
You mean the drow Sc'erver Bane? I wish I would have been there................. ;) - I hear he was a very well RP'ed drow, he got perma'd?
Heh, cheers for those showcasing fear of magic adequately, its very difficult and some manage to make it credible despite the ''wanna do the lich'' heard too often around...
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Well he laughed a bit too much ;-) but yea that's the one, most of the way through the ordeal I thought it was a DM controlled NPC, didn't realize we were going after some players char til pretty much the end... but it wasn't just fear of magic, blood started coming down the walls from the cieling and the less experienced characters in the room rped their characters balking at the sight of it, which just does sooo much for the atmosphere and mood, it's invaluable. Gave a chance for the Inquistor to be all stalwart in the face of gruesome evil "Stand fast , lads! His evil ends tonight!" type of thing... fun fun
And for all we know using magic like that infront of a guard and inquisitor could come back to haunt us , but I think both of the spell casters knew they were taking a risk, it's just that it was a greater risk going into such a hostile situation without preparing ourselves as best we could. For me, the only spell I used that had an outward appearance change was prot. from evil with it's glowy dots floating up (hardly a grounds for declaring witchcraft, not to mention I wouldn't be surprised if the Inquisitor had a really high spellcraft skill so he'd know if we were using "witchery") the rest were stat boosts and armor wardings, so if there's no outward sign of the spell effect (like stone skin or prot. from elements), how distinguishable is divine spell casting from say a really emphatic prayer or beseeching of a god to say an ignorant native guard or citizen?
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Yaeh, I was rping Carrib when that drow pc began his menace with the outlanders at the outskirts. I was applauding the tension he was building up. Bellen, Vasham, and William were the three who first encountered the drow and at any point, one player could have stiffled the plot development. It says something positive by the player base that a single drow pc was able to build up all that tension, leading towards the climax and resolution that it did.
Here is just a thought. Like Marcauius said, once inside the house, less experienced characters, such as a native pc guard, were overwhelmed mentally, way over their head in the arcane and horror. In such a state, my guard pc could easily assume that barkskin on a pc was caused by the dark fey. (But the incident would need to take place in the room with the dark fey, not before)
My point.....is that if you are role playing a character (unlike Marcaius' character who knew he was taking a risk) who wants to avoid being lynched or burned because of witchcraft, be more mindful of the setting and consequences. Believe it or not, going into a battle without every buff available to you has its own rewards as well.
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My own caster has taken to extreme methods, praying to a goddess and extolling her holy virtues every time she so much as utters a cure light wounds, in an effort to pretend to be seen as a priestess.
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Good to hear Blues.
When new players see that sort of precaution and extreme care put into concealing one's arcane "talents" then that should help set the tone for the setting for new players to model.
Modeling good and appropiate role play for the setting is always something to be mindful of.
In teaching, we use the metaphor of scaffolding when our goal is for students to gradually internalize new skills and behaviors.
First: I do, you watch.
Second: I do, you ask questions.
Third: You do, I ask questions.
Fourth: You do, I watch.
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I've seen this topic come up today in the thread on fighter classess so have given it a good ol' bump.
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According to one of the transition screens, Barovians only accept healing magics.
Its important to note about Magic, and I'll refer you to think link: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=5694.msg55965#msg55965
Specifically the : Arcane versus Divine section.
Aside healing Magic, the Rest would very much apear as Sorcery to the common folk, specially a Barovian.
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My Gundarakite doesn't care what any outlander labels "it."
If a cleric summons an undead skeleton, that's "witchcraft."
If a mage summonds an undead, that's "wtichcraft."
The same goes for many other spells.
It is almost important to note that though outlanders are common at PoTm, Barovia, as it was created for PnP, would not have had that much exposure to outlander ways of living or thinking (nor are they usually receptive to outlanders ways). The feeling I imagine intended in the PnP, is that the outlanders find themselves alienated. I don't know if there would be about 20 or 40 outlanders all hanging out in Vallaki in PnP.
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My Gundarakite doesn't care what any outlander labels "it."
Yes, but the NPC's reactions don't care either. They don't react to Clerical buffs?
[Can someone clarify?]
For instance, you wont get lynched as a Cleric, nor be "Outcasted" for the use of "Witchery" Like protection from the elements, no matter how good, would be enough for you to be labeled. Imo.
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Barovia in PnP really is xenophobic. You land there (or arrive there from another domain) and find yourself in that place where they shut their windows and doors at night, lock themselves in. Where no one speaks your language and no one wants to talk to you. You might find a friendlier innkeeper, you might not. You will be met with harsh glares, you will feel lonely. Alone. You won't feel welcome. At all.
That's what makes Barovia a horrible place, that and the horrors that lurk at night, but there are other domains with more horrors (Verbrek comes to mind at the moment or Bluetspur or a lot of those crazy domains). Barovia is the xenophobic domain, the backwards one.
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As for clerics and mages. In the server right now, it detects arcane spells. If you cast an arcane spell near a NPC(be you a wizard, sorcerer or bard), your Outcast Rating will go up. It won't have that effect if you cast a clerical spell (any cleric spells..healing for bards), your Outcast Rating will remain unaffected. Recently, a new script was added though: if you walk near a NPC with a buff (any buff with a visual effect..wether casted by a druid, cleric, mage or bard..or items), you will temporary feel an increase of Outcast Rating; it might not be enough to trigger reactions, but the more spells, the more chances of triggering hostile reactions.
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I do not understand why a person equipped with a normal-intelligent brain would keep fearing that which does not hurt him, but instead helps him. It's like hating the doctor who cured your pneumonia, or have a grudge against the guy who fixed your roof for free. It makes no sense to me why a Barovian would keep fearing magic that does no harm. We claim that Barovians would view any magic but healing as sorcery. But I ask you - how the hell do they know the difference. YOU as a player can tell the difference between a protection from evil spell and a healing spell. But the Barovian wouldn't. If a cleric heals a badly wounded person, thus -ending- a state of extreme pain and blood loss, why would that Barovian then scream "omg witchery" when someone blesses their weapon?
It makes zero sense to me. How does a person like that reason anyway?
"Oh, this person just brought me back from the brink of death. I better go get my buddies to burn him on the stake for blessing my weapon - making me able to fend for my life against he undead hoards trying to eat my brain. Yes, that seems like a reasonable line of thought. Let's KILL the person who SAVES my life and helps my community survive. Mhm, good idea there Sherlock."
I want you to bare in mind that superstition is a two way street. When white people came to africa, they were first appreciated for their knowledge in a variety of things. On the other hand, they were lynched for taking pictures of the natives, since the natives thought the camera stole their sole and imprisoned it on the photo. Generally, a person will fear that which hurts him, and rever that which helps him.
I find the reaction of Barovians - fearing clerics who heal them - just pure stupid.
Consider how the natives of Africa reacted to white people and their inventions. They were worshipped until they started to steal, rape and main the population. True, in some cases, they were killed right away. One example being the camera crew who were put down because the natives (or rather - the schaman who was losing power to the newcomers) claimed that the cameras stole the sole of the one on the picture.
That's a minority though. Even those who fear new things are brought to a point where they have to decide if it hurts them, or aids them. In the setting of Barovia - I understand fully if the pre-reaction is that all magi is bad. But when that magic is used by those who heal people - the natural reaction should be vice versa. It should be more along the line of "whoah, that's odd. But it's the cleric who does it. The guy who saved my friends kid/dad/whatever from dying. It has to be good."[/b]
I agree to the setting, and that natives first reaction is to fear magic. But to keep fearing that which evidently is good for you is not ignorance. It's stupidity. No person with normal intelligence fails to see one simple rule that all things in the universe abide to. It's called action and consequense. And when that action bears the consequense of aid, safety and healing - then a reaction of fearing it is unnatural and illogic.
So I ask again. How does a Native - who has no knowledge in spellcraft - acknowledge what is a healing spell and what isn't? How could such a person possibly deem a non-healing spell as such? In fact, I think that a Barovian who's had a cleric cast and explain protection from evil would be brave above the average. How could he come to harm, after all? He's protected against evil. If he doesn't understand magic, then why wouldn't he assume that he's immortal against anything he deems as evil?
I'm just questioning the reactions of characters here. In general.
If you're not an idiot - why persist with claiming something that evidently isn't true?
What Barovian would claim that something that protects you from harm - is connected to dark powers?
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None... but only because no one knows what a dark power is...
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^^^
yep and..
B. They are connected to the dark powers (healing or otherwise)
and
C. From the thought i get to a local barovian there int/wis is like 10 at best soo while of possibly standard intellect and wisdom they lack the widom to connect teh dots to your "oh it helped so it must be good line of thought"
and
D. From my own thoughts on reading the 2nd Editoni setting books for ravenloft 95% of all folks in baroiva (if not more)...are simple uneducated peasants
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Orchson, you grossly underestimate the combined power of willfull ignorance and ingrained superstition. Consider that in the real world, today, there are people who refuse scientifically proven medications because they believe their faith in God will heal them. It's been known for nearly a thousand years that the Earth is round, yet there are still people--the Flat Earth Society--who insist otherwise. And don't get me started on evolution's detractors.
The fact is, if the majority of people in a culture enforce superstition, ignorance, and xenophobia, it will likely remain that way. When those who object to this behavior are killed or at best shunned, there is little incentive to change.
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D is a good point... take a caveman with twice the IQ of Einstein... put him in a modern lab and he'll cower in a corner until he starves to death or rampage and kill everyone else and smash the place up; he, like the Barovians, lack the basis for understanding the answer... and, any Barovian you manage to convince will be quietly carted off to the Asylum by his well-meaning friends and neighbors, because he/she has clearly lost their mind
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Blue beat me to it. Barovians don't even go to school at all..they are uneducated, illiterate and backwaters people..nobles 'might' school their children (that is..hiring private tutors or sending them off in other domains).
Plenty of examples of that. Just go to South Africa where a large majority of the population, including government officials, believe that AIDS can be cured with some shamanist ways or by drinking some tea or eating some fruit. How come so many would believe that in the modern world? Lack of education, lack of knowledge, lack of a desire to seek answers. That's ignorance, blind superstitions..even if logically they would realize that their superstitious ways don't work, there is nothing logical in it.
Magic in Barovia
Though Barovians believe in magic, the vast majority of them have never seen it in practice, at least outside of the local cleric. Most folk regard magic as a secret as old as time and riddled with spiritual risks too terrible to contemplate. Arcane magic is practiced only in secret in Barovia, as the common folk believe that all such power is a gift granted by demons. These fell blessings can be bestowed in the womb (sorcerers) or deliberately sought out by the deranged (wizards), but it makes little difference to the fearful peasant mind. Even bards must be careful not to reveal themselves as anything but wandering performers in this land. Since popular opinion holds that arcane spellcasters are unquestionably the minions of evil, the agents of the boyars and burgomasters rarely discourage violence against them. Villages are rife with tales of suspected spellcasters lynched in full view of idle Barovian soldiers.
Divine magic as practiced by clerics is regarded as spiritually pure, at least when the spellcaster in question serves a virtuous deity. Nonetheless, Barovians who do not share a cleric's zealous devotion to a particular god are often fearful of the priest's magical power. Like arcane magic, the divine magic of druids is thought to flow directly from a demonic source; Barovians predictably regard such priests of nature with fear and contempt.
As a people, the Barovians tend to be suspicious of organized institutions, and as such they often have little love for clergy. The vast majority of ethnic Barovians are not religious; the reasons, I discovered, can be as numerous as the folk one presses on the matter. Most, however, believe that the nebulous gods of antiquity are literally missing or dead and that churches are sanctuaries for pretenders and fools. They seldom frequent their churches except when attending funerals. In fact, even in settlements with a functioning temple, weddings are commonly held in the local inn. Only the most optimistic young couples arrange for church weddings.
Ezra: Ezra's church has never gained a strong foothold in Barovia. Many Barovians believe that Ezra's clergy are nothing but quislings for Ivana Boritsi, the Black Widow of Borca. Indeed, boyars and burgomasters are notoriously hostile to the notion of temporal Church power when it threatens their own. Temples that become too ambitious or wealthy for their own good often find their assets seized and their clergy jailed by the Count's minions. Nonetheless, the Goddess' message of duty and guardianship appeals to some Barovians, and the Church of Ezra persists here without Strahd's formal blessing.
Hala: As in realms throughout the Core, the Church of Hala maintains a fragile and unobtrusive presence in Barovia. Most Barovians' experiences with the faith are limited to its hospices, where weary travelers are given shelter and healing. The majority of folk thus have a benign impression of the Church. Few suspect the reality that the Weathermay ladies so casually exposed by publishing Van Richten's Guide to Witches: that the Church espouses a magical, naturalistic creed that would be regarded as profane by most Barovians. Hala's clergy practice great discretion when dealing with Strahd's agents, making a tremendous show of appearing humble and obedient. Their secrecy, I should note, has been aided by the Count's suppression of van Richten's works, a matter I shall soon return to.
The Morninglord: The cult of the Morninglord is, of course, Barovia's native religious phenomenon, a faith that sprang up seemingly overnight in the fifth century and has slowly gathered influence ever since. Martyn "the Mad" Pelkar was regarded as a harmless eccentric when he first began proselytizing about the Morninglord. Gradually, with the aid of his first young acolyte, the charismatic Sasha Petrovich, he was able to attract a modest congregation at the Sanctuary of Blessed Succor in the Village of Barovia.
The cult's religious center has moved westward in the centuries since, first to Vallaki and then to Krezk, supposedly at the prodding of unnamed, generous contributors. Many wagging tongues insist that the cult wishes to put as much distance as possible between its most holy temple and Count von Zarovich.
I learned quite quickly that nearly every Barovian has an opinion on the Morninglord and his faithful. Most ethnic Barovians view the cult with bemusement or cynicism. The Morninglord's message of blind hope in the face of darkness strikes many as foolishly naive. Some Barovians, particularly the burgomasters, boyars, and their agents, grow suspicious of the cult's popularity among the Gundarakites. Gundarakites seem to cleave a little too closely to the cult's uplifting message, and some burgomasters have gone out of their way to prove a link between the Morninglord's devotees and violent Gundarakite rebel activities. Gundarakites, for their part, seemingly cannot help but be drawn like lambs to the Morninglord's cheery promise of salvation. The cult's temples are strongest in settlements where Gundarakites dominate, and in some temples Luktar is even the preferred language for religious services.
Erlin: Erlin is a puzzling Gundarakite death deity whose worship was sanctioned and encouraged by Duke Gundar during his rule. He is an ancient god and likely a corruption of an even older demonic entity, Irlek-Khan. Most Gundarakites refuse to speak of him, but I convinced several youths to expound on his attributes at length. He displays neither the cold detachment nor the absolute evil associated with death deities in most cultures. His demeanor could be described as that of a trickster, yet thoroughly malicious and scatterbrained. He supposedly created death as a gleeful deception, convincing the first man that his demise was unavoidable; the mortal, of course, promptly died. Erlin has thousands of demonic minions (all of them named and organized into a vast and mutable hierarchy) that assist the god in his duties. His supervision of the departed is cast in the metaphor of herding cattle or sheep, though Erlin often neglects his obligations and allows the dead to roam free; hence, the existence of the undead. Though his priests have never included clerics capable of divine magic, the clergy are no less fervent in their devotion. Just as he has threatened to fade from memory entirely, Erlin has experienced a revival of sorts in recent years. Many young Gundarakites now associate him with Gundarakite ethnic pride, using the faith as a banner around which to rally.
Regardless of their professed faith, if any, Barovians adhere to a simplistic, somewhat muddled cosmology. While they believe in a heaven and hell, which are called Refugiu and Iadul in Balok, such otherworldly locations are more folk beliefs than facets of a refined cosmology. Refugiu is a vague and mysterious place, not so much a paradise as a place of rest, where the weariness of the mortal coil is shed for eternal spiritual slumber. As with most heavenly realms, Refugiu is thought to lie above the mortal world, beyond the firmament of stars. The souls of most mortals, even those who were generally wicked in life, are thought to journey to Refugiu upon death.
In contrast to Refugiu's ambiguity, most Barovians have a vivid conception of Iadul as a place of unspeakable horror. Fragments of the ancient Barovian epic Flight from the Balinoks describe Iadul as a fetid pit of disease that stretches into the bowels of the earth. Such a place does not serve to punish evildoers in any cosmic sense. It is merely the abode of demons, and any mortal who finds his way there forged his own damnation without the gods' judgment. Unfortunately, demons are thought to be able to claw their way up into the mortal world to wreak havoc on humankind. Such fiends are generally seen as agents of destruction and perversity interested in humanity only insomuch as it can assist in furthering their own dark desires.
All Barovians celebrate the same seasonal festivals widely observed throughout the Core's temperate regions. Perhaps due to their druidic heritage, the Forfarians hold the four solar holidays as especially holy.
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So, you're telling me than Bob the Barovian will likley try to burn the dude who saved his life and healed his child from a deadly disease, because someone blessed his dagger?
Okay then, how about my question - how do Barovians see the difference between healing magic and other magic?
I mean - if I use still spell - and bless my own weapon - how could they possibly:
A) Recognize it as arcane words.
B) Recognize it as something else than healing magic.
You're talking about quite extensive metagaming from Barovian players. They have 0, nada, nill, no possible way of differing an arcane casting from a simple warding gesture made in a foreign language. How do they know it's not elven? Or any other outlander language that's uttere when the mage does something that does NOT have a visual effect?
This bothers me. It seems like the general player population is prepared to metagame in order to be able to express thei fear of magic.
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So, you're telling me than Bob the Barovian will likley try to burn the dude who saved his life and healed his child from a deadly disease, because someone blessed his dagger?
You are viewing this from the wrong angle.
Group psychology is very different from individual one.
For instance, a "crowd", it has been proven individuals in one will have a drastically lower IQ when grouped, picture that with uneducated/illiterate fearful Barovians. You are looking at this from an individualistic angle, you will change Bob's views on Magic, then what?
You think Bob' will be open to others and try to convince them of something as ten folds more "Irrational/folly" than Flying Saucers and extra-terrestrials existing and them being "good"?.
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So, you're telling me than Bob the Barovian will likley try to burn the dude who saved his life and healed his child from a deadly disease, because someone blessed his dagger?
Okay then, how about my question - how do Barovians see the difference between healing magic and other magic?
I mean - if I use still spell - and bless my own weapon - how could they possibly:
A) Recognize it as arcane words.
B) Recognize it as something else than healing magic.
You're talking about quite extensive metagaming from Barovian players. They have 0, nada, nill, no possible way of differing an arcane casting from a simple warding gesture made in a foreign language. How do they know it's not elven? Or any other outlander language that's uttere when the mage does something that does NOT have a visual effect?
This bothers me. It seems like the general player population is prepared to metagame in order to be able to express thei fear of magic.
The Barovian would most likely not let that dude near his child in the first place. Even if it means the death of his child, the Barovian would not trust that caster enough to let him near his household. So, that situation is very unlikely.
Arcane magic and clerical magic are very different. Without metamagic feats, arcane magic is easily recognizable by the handgestures, the uttering of words in a strange tongue, the very foreign way of casting. Clerical magic on the other hand is channeled through prayers. Your question is: could a mage pose as a cleric? I reckon that with a high enough perform roll, he could pretend he is a cleric and pose as one..but I don't know of many mages with high perform rolls.
Our bards tend to do that however ; that's why casting healing spells as a bard doesn't raise your Outcast Rating here..because most bards pretend to be priests when they cast. They can roll perform and mimick a priest's gestures as best as they can.
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How does one tell the difference from healing and other types of magic?
Barovian native number five watches the outlander cleric cast on barovian native number one. Sparkles start rising from Barovian native number one's head. Barovian native number five's eyes bug out, "In the name of all that's sacred! That witch it making his soul leak from his very body! LOOK!" he runs off screaming witch.
Hell, maybe the barovian (being already suspicious of those clerical fanatics) notices that when the cleric casts, no wounds close up.... Maybe he's frightened when he sees a bright white light sheathe the cleric's weapon for a moment. Maybe he bugs out when he notices that the cleric's muscles almost burst from their armor after he completes the spell. Spells, for the most part, are very visible, especially when one can see the before and after.
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Because again. A priest (Or bard performing) Is going to be "Praying" openly to their god while laying their hands on the wounded.
An Arcanist on the other hand, whether performing or not.. even in praying to their gods, have to use hand gestures that are not common to a Clerics.
Not to mention. Wizards/Sorcerers cant cast healing spells... and it was stated that while Religions aren't loved, they are tolerated when it comes down to healing. Anything else and they get the same warding gestures from locals.. or should.
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Yeah..to a Barovian, there is a world of difference between Ilie, the gentle kindhearted although a bit on the wacko side Morninglordian and that random priest of Ilmater who casts darkfire on the Barovian's butterknife out of nowhere.
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So, you're telling me than Bob the Barovian will likley try to burn the dude who saved his life and healed his child from a deadly disease, because someone blessed his dagger?
Okay then, how about my question - how do Barovians see the difference between healing magic and other magic?
I mean - if I use still spell - and bless my own weapon - how could they possibly:
A) Recognize it as arcane words.
B) Recognize it as something else than healing magic.
You're talking about quite extensive metagaming from Barovian players. They have 0, nada, nill, no possible way of differing an arcane casting from a simple warding gesture made in a foreign language. How do they know it's not elven? Or any other outlander language that's uttere when the mage does something that does NOT have a visual effect?
This bothers me. It seems like the general player population is prepared to metagame in order to be able to express thei fear of magic.
Arcane magic and divine magic, despite using the same sounds/animations in the NWN engine, are cast so differently from each other that even the backwards peasants of Barovia can tell the difference. A cleric prays to his god and/or presents his holy symbol, then casts his spell. A wizard/sorceror/bard has to do a bunch of funny hand gestures, speak a bunch of funny words, and possibly use some sort of esoteric material (e.g. sprinkling themselves with diamond dust or whatnot).
And only divine magic used for healing or dealing with undead is welcomed. A cleric who raises an army of undead skeletons or bestows a horrible curse isn't going to be viewed any better than a wizard.
As for convincing "Bob the Barovian" that arcane magic is "good": you might be able to convince Bob on his own, but that doesn't mean that because you did so, that society will miraculously turn on its ear. Bob would know better than to arouse suspicion among his countrymen.
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This isn't to say that arcane and divine magic have no differences, but rather that the differences appear in flavor instead of effect. The mystical gestures required by divine spells tend to be less expansive and complicated than those of their arcane counterparts, but no compelling theory explains why. Those who hold to the "component as lock" theory (mentioned above) suggest that divine casters need fewer innate restrictions on their spells, since a higher power has already entrusted them with the effect. For a divine spellcaster, preparing a spell is mostly a matter of the spirit. The spellcaster prays or meditates, entreating the divine source to provide power for the spell.
Once a spell has been cast, it's effectively impossible to tell whether it is arcane or divine. If an observer actually witnesses the casting, the spell's components might give a clue to the spell's nature; for example, divine spells typically employ a holy symbol as a focus for the spell. Otherwise, nothing distinguishes an arcane spell effect from a divine spell effect.
In that sense, the systems do well in representing the sources. [Thumbs up]
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I just pretend to be divine by healing and praying alot, especially when casting, and always touching my holy symbol when doing so. When prompted, I roll a bluff/perform to mask arcane gestures and words as simple prayer in some holy language or another. Of course, this is easier for me, as being a Bard I can cast healing spells which nicely disguises me for the most part.
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Arcane magic and clerical magic are very different. Without metamagic feats, arcane magic is easily recognizable by the handgestures, the uttering of words in a strange tongue, the very foreign way of casting.
For someone who knows the difference - yes. A Barovian is to ignorant for that. Or are you telling me that Barovians spend enough time around arcane casters to get to learn the difference? I mean, does he magically gain the insight because the cleric prays in a tounge he knows? It seems very far fetched to me. Compare to RL if you will. I can't tell the difference between a chinese prayer and a japanese rap lyrics. Why? Because I don't know either language, and both are very different from eachother. But not in -my- ears since I don't have a reference to either.
Barovian native number five watches the outlander cleric cast on barovian native number one. Sparkles start rising from Barovian native number one's head. Barovian native number five's eyes bug out, "In the name of all that's sacred! That witch it making his soul leak from his very body! LOOK!" he runs off screaming witch.
Flawed and useless example since I spoke about effects that didn't show.
Hell, maybe the barovian (being already suspicious of those clerical fanatics) notices that when the cleric casts, no wounds close up....
You mean like when Zachea casts cure disease on an uninjured character?
Because again. A priest (Or bard performing) Is going to be "Praying" openly to their god while laying their hands on the wounded.
In a foreign language. Which the Barovian has zero chance of differing from arcane words unless he 1) has heard arcane words a lot and 2) understand the language which commoners speak.
Not to mention. Wizards/Sorcerers cant cast healing spells... and it was stated that while Religions aren't loved, they are tolerated when it comes down to healing. Anything else and they get the same warding gestures from locals.. or should.
I see no warding gestures when clerics cast greater restoration or cure disease. Spells with zero visible effects. I take it Zachea then utters hus prayers in Barovian since he's still alive and kicking. Because if he utters it in common, he's close to 100% same as an arcane caster buffing his intelligence. Odd gestures, even odder words, and nothing happens. Witchery!
A wizard/sorceror/bard has to do a bunch of funny hand gestures, speak a bunch of funny words, and possibly use some sort of esoteric material (e.g. sprinkling themselves with diamond dust or whatnot).
Unless using a still spell, which was included in my example, at which point the arcanist rolls his thumbs while casting. Right?
I'm still not convinced. I just see a lot of constructed explenations basing itself on the notion that Barovians have the faintest clue about the difference between arcane and divine. You state that Barovians very rarley go to clerics - and in the same breath you're trying to convinve me that they at least go there often enough to be able to differ arcane from divine gestures.
How is that possible if the exposure they have to magic is so low that you claim?
Do they, or do they not hang around clerics a lot? If they do, then I can buy the notion about them knowing the difference. But if the general Barovian only visits a cleric in times of extreme need, then how would they know the difference? With no exposion, they have no frame of referance.
How's it gonna be.
Do they, or do they not hang around clerics casting magic a lot?
So far, it all just sounds like trying to validate an invalid conduct from Barovian players.
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What exactly are you intent on proving, Orchson? That it doesn't make sense that Barovians accept divine magic but not arcane? Does it have to make sense? Ignorance often leads to irrational thinking. They accept clerical magic that heals (and that goes beyond healing physical wounds--cure disease would be considered a form of healing magic) and destroys/wards off the undead, but not other kinds. Any magic that is destructive, flashy, or worse, creates the undead, will be met with abject fear and possibly hostility.
Besides, that's the way it says Barovians are in all the Ravenloft books, and I see no reason to change that, regardless of whether it makes sense to you or not.
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No, no - I understand the acceptance of healing magic alone. What I am asking is how they could possibly make difference of it. You've clarified why they accept healing magic only. But I ask how they can tell the difference. There's the obvious situation with someone who's got a wound. Healing magic closes the wound. Non healing magic does not.
But I mean the casting in itself. It sounds like you think a Barovian would be able to tell a difference between an outlander cleric casting a spell, and an arcane caster casting a non-component-reliant spell. What I mean is - an outlander cleric casting cure disease on someone who's not hurt otherwise - should gain the same reaction as an outlander wizard casting say... Owls wisdom. The difference to outlanders who are used to magic is this:
Cleric: Mutters a prayer and makes a holy sign of X. (remove disease)
Wizard: Mutters arcane words and makes mystic signs of power. (owls wisdom)
While a Barovian would see this:
Cleric: Mutters in foreign and makes signs. (nothing happens)
Wizard: Mutters in foreign and makes signs. (nothing happens)
They would be fully unable to differ between the two, because they first off don't know common outlander language, and secondly aren't around casters of any kind (arcane especially) enough to be able to tell the difference between arcane words and simple outlander common. How could they? They don't speak either. Elven is as foreign to most Barovians as arcane words are. None of them make any sense and sound odd.
Which brings me to stilled spells that yield no outwards effect. How could they possibly know the difference between a Bard enhancing his charisma and the same Bard healing himself? Both make use of a prayer and then a light. Other than that - there is no obvious effect. Wounds closing - sure - if the Barovian has X-ray vision to see through full plate/chain/whatever armor.
I'm saying that in many cases, the reaction of Barovians are depenent on the knowledge of the player - not the Barovian. From his perspective - the spells should look the same because of ignorance. And if they don't look -exactly- the same, what does it matter? The Barovian isn't likley to have seen enough spells, wether arcane or clerical, to understand the difference.
Now, I am not debating their view on magic. But I am saying that whatever way they wish to treat such an effect - it should be the same for clerics and arcanists alike. The Barovian should react as strongly to a remove disease spell that isn't effecting him personally, as he should react to an owls wisdom spell not aimed at him.
After all, both include language he does not understand, and making signs of different sorts. To a religious person, it might be possible to see the difference between the clerics religious signs and the mages arcane ones. But to the atheist Barovian - it shouldn't. To him, it's just hand waving. Wether or not it's the cleric crossing himself, or the arcane caster finger flicking - it's still just moving in odd ways.
Now - mind you, I do think the fear of magic should remain. It's a part of the setting. But I wish people would stop metagaming knowing who is what, and who uses what sort of magic. When I cast an owls wisdom, I want the same reaction as when a cleric casts restoration/cure disease/remove curse, etc. Because frankly, the Barovian sees the exact same thing.
Wether that reaction is negative or not - doesn't matter. But I don't want people to go:
"Oh praise be dear cleric, for ridding my friend of this disease. Why don't you help me kill that witch over there that just enhanced his friends mind with dark dark magic!"
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what about the diseased guy turning the proper shade and getting up off his death bed?
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what about the diseased guy turning the proper shade and getting up off his death bed?
which is a form of healing, and thus, accepted. A cleric casting blade barrier or rain of fire would not be looked upon so favorably, unless it was already known that the cleric was a healer.
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hehe I was actually pointing out the results of a remove disease spell... visable I'd say
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It's always been my interpretation... that when a person casts a divine spell, they are essentially speaking a prayer... thus the verbal component would most likely be in common (or one of the other languages they speak) whereas arcane spells are gibbrish (mix of draconic and all sorts of weird gibberish) Therefore, it'd be more like.
Cleric: Tyr, cleanse this man's body of the taint within. (glowy light) *peasant thinks, "Oh... he got rid of his disease"*
Wizard: GRCHIANF TERGOLIAN GEIROTO! (glowy light) *Peasant runs away full speed, leaving a trail of urine behind*
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Cleric: Tyr, cleanse this man's body of the taint within. (glowy light) *peasant thinks, "Oh... he got rid of his disease"*
Wizard: GRCHIANF TERGOLIAN GEIROTO! (glowy light) *Peasant runs away full speed, leaving a trail of urine behind*
A commoner Barovian knows neither common nor arcane. To him, it would rather be:
Cleric: GRCHIANF TERGOLIAN GEIROTO! (glowy light)
Wizard: GRCHIANF TERGOLIAN GEIROTO! (glowy light)
How could he ossibly differ common from arcane when he understands neither language. Sure, if he knows common he can make such an assumption. But how is he to differ it from elven. Dwarven. Orc. Or any other language? I doubt the Barovian commoner has lore enough to recognize the different outlander languages.
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This is just a theory of mine supported by various literature..
Many mages whisper or speaks under their breath when casting.. And then again many mages also train to use as few gestures as possible or tries to make them as discrete as possible, hiding them in their sleeves, under the table etc...
Now all of these are without Still Spell and Silent Spell, since both somatic and verbal compontents are there, but toned down..
How about it?
Of course this is probably something only an experienced mage could do, that is familiar with the spells in question.. Ie probably not the highest spell lvl he knows or even the second highest..
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Like arcane magic, the divine magic of druids is thought to flow directly from a demonic source; Barovians predictably regard such priests of nature with fear and contempt.
Divine magic as practiced by clerics is regarded as spiritually pure, at least when the spellcaster in question serves a virtuous deity.
Read the first quote and the second. It's not because it's divine magic that the Barovian will like it. If druids who are channeling divine energies and casting similarly to a cleric are seen as 'demonic' and clerics not following 'virtuous deities' (and to a Barovian that is likely only Ezra or the Morninglord or Hala), then they will be seen and labelled as witches and demon consorting freaks. Until mages can pretend they cast healing and restorative magic just like a cleric and pose as one, then they will be seen as consorting with demons.
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Well.. There have been obviously evil clerics casting around freely as well.. Spells like destruction and implosion comes to mind..
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If a cleric is casting something frightening, they could be percieved as being a witch.
Basically, most Barovians and Gundarakite live entire lives without ever seeing a vampire, a werewolf, or anyone raised from the dead. The experience characters have in the module is very unlike the experience of a native.
If they do come in contact with a cleric, say through the Morninglord Cult, espcially the Gundarakite who have been joining the fold of the cult, they may come to have trust in those clerics.
There is no metagaming going on here. If a cleric summons an undead warrior, and a mage summons an undead warrior, both are feared equally without distiniction. It is the outcome, what they can visibly see, that they are interpreting as good or evil.
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It is metagaming when a native knows the difference between an arcane caster casting owls wisdom and a cleric casting cure disease. Unless there's an actual change in the subject of the spell, the native would not know the difference of the two spells. It's just foreign language and gestures. I wouldn't bring it up if I hadn't seen it. Native character yawping about witchery when a wizard casts something, but just smiling when a cleric does the same.
I agree that a native would know the difference between a healing spell and an arcane spell, but only if there's an effect denoting it.
I do not agree to a native yawping witchery when I cast a stilled owls wisdom. There are no gestures, only words. And the native has no way of knowing it's arcane words, and not just a foreign language.
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NPC "Witch" Shows up. BURN THE WITCH! Result, A Burnt Witch.
PC "Witch" Launches 50 fireballs in full view of the guards, then goes drinking in the Lady's Rest five minutes later, attends a play at the Broken Bell.
Result, a 4 page diatribe on meta gaming, hair splitting, interpret it this way that way.
I say Burn the Witch. Burn his Carebear buddies too. Maybe the Majority of the Barovians would just run away screaming. A few will go get their torches and pitchforks, whip up some MOB MENTALITY, and go handle it.
A few more may go report to the authorities and the Burgomaster can send word to the Count that he has competition and some whack job PC is burning up all the Counts property.
~Rex :twisted:
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There haven't been very many native Barovians or Gundarakite players. It is also very challenging to play, and not everyone may know with certainity how to react in some situations.
In doing the research before and during the playing of my Gundarakites, I formed this outlook:
My Gundarakites grew up on a farm, having no exposure to either cleric or mage powers.
So when Gibrana landed a job at the Lady's Rest, and she was suddenly surrounded by 20 to 40 outlanders, there was some huge tension.
She'd never seen magical light even, let alone the other "unusual" powers.
She pretty much tried her best to stay clear from anyone who didn't appear as "normal," by her own culture's definition.
Ellfric, her brother, is the first generation Zsivosky to become faithful to the Morninglord's message (as interpreted by a Gundarakite).
He's had more exposure to clerics because of this.
He's slowly becoming a bit more comfortable with the things clerics do, but those are only things such as healing spells and the like.
With his bride to be, a cleric, after seeing clerics perform regularly, he may notice the difference between a mage casting owl's wisdom and a cleric.
But if that mage does so discreetly, or masks it as a prayer, then no biggy.
Basically, my natives will react fearfully to spells, either cleric or mage, that are not of a healing nature, and that produce dramatic effects such as stone skin, fireballs, death magic, and the like.
I don't know how they'll react in every situation, and glad for it, since part of the setting and the joy is not knowing how these tensions will always play out.
I can't account for how other players with natives interact in similar situations. The best course of action is to talk about the role playing of natives in the forum, without putting those players on the defensive, especially given how challenging it can be to role play a native.
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A few more may go report to the authorities and the Burgomaster can send word to the Count that he has competition and some whack job PC is burning up all the Counts property.
~Rex :twisted:
I'd still like to know where people get this idea that Strahd feels competitive with mages. He doesn't. The destruction of his property, on the other hand, will definitely draw his ire.
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A few more may go report to the authorities and the Burgomaster can send word to the Count that he has competition and some whack job PC is burning up all the Counts property.
~Rex :twisted:
I'd still like to know where people get this idea that Strahd feels competitive with mages. He doesn't. The destruction of his property, on the other hand, will definitely draw his ire.
I didn't mean competitive in the way of....Oh Look...a Mage...time for lunch. But a diner invitation to preuse ones arcane knowledge etc might be in order. Then a brief discussion about the rights ofthe Master of the Land over his property and how Fireballing his Property may not be a good thing.
~Rex :twisted:
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I didn't mean competitive in the way of....Oh Look...a Mage...time for lunch. But a diner invitation to preuse ones arcane knowledge etc might be in order. Then a brief discussion about the rights ofthe Master of the Land over his property and how Fireballing his Property may not be a good thing.
Followed by of course, the requisite stabbing in the face for destroying said property. And then- Cake.
This would make for an awesome RP event by the way, seriously. ~makes note to start blowing stuff up~
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How could he ossibly differ common from arcane when he understands neither language. Sure, if he knows common he can make such an assumption. But how is he to differ it from elven. Dwarven. Orc. Or any other language? I doubt the Barovian commoner has lore enough to recognize the different outlander languages.
Bull. Talk to any npc and they will speak back to you in common. Common is, just that, common in the server's version of ravenloft.
And if your cleric is casting spells in elven, dwarven, halfling, or anything else, I'd expect to be branded a witch. (provided the spell isn't obviously healing)
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Bull. Talk to any npc and they will speak back to you in common. Common is, just that, common in the server's version of ravenloft.
Ive been thinking about that as well. Why the hell does peasants speak common anyway? Not to mention a lot of the Barovian players do. Where did they learn common? And more importantly - even if we put aside the unrealistic situation where a person learns a language of a group he dislikes, when he doesn't have to... How is it possible that Natives can dislike an outlander when they've taken the extensive time to learn their language?
That has always bugged me. Every Barovian out there (save for one, Kudos to Elisea) seems to know a LOT of common. And in turn - every level outlander popping up in the mists seems to have any sort of possible/impossible excuse to know Balok. Its stupid, stupid, stupid if you ask me, that a xenophobic people who shuts their windows when you come strolling would take hours and hours from their hard and time consuminf effort to survive, so they can learn the language of a faction they fear and dispise.
Makes zero sense.
My comment was under the -assumption- that Barovians do NOT take hours of their lives to learn common. And if they do, then where does this xenophobia come from? Apparently, they're not xenophobic enough to stay away from outlanders long enough to avoid learning their language near fluently.
... seriously.
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Balok is not common.
Basically, there is nothing realistic about an outlander popping up in Barovia and then being able to communicate in a common language with a Barovian, or vice versa.
It seems to have been an unspoken agreenment to suspend our belief, in the interest of role play. Since natives would not take the time to teach their language to outlanders, except in rare cases.
In fact, with so many outlanders coming from various places, if we were to be ultra-realistic, most outlanders wouldn't be able to communicate with one another as well.
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And yet, it seems that a tenth of our outlander players speak Balok for some reason.
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The Developers, after discussion in another thread on languages, might be implementing language tokens to ensure that outlanders who do learn Balok or Luktar, have the role playing to support it.
For example, if an outlander has spend the past few years (in game years) working with the Gundarakite rebels, they might learn enough Lutkar.
If an outlander is accepted in to the Vallaki Guard, and they spend enough time immersed in Vallaki, then they might learn to speak Balok.
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on that same note... common is probably some form of gutter argot or trade talk... Vallaki is something of a hub in Barovia for trading so it's likely that "common" can be picked up in a few weeks at the outside...
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on that same note... common is probably some form of gutter argot or trade talk... Vallaki is something of a hub in Barovia for trading so it's likely that "common" can be picked up in a few weeks at the outside...
No, actually, this was clarified by Blue in another thread. Common doesn't exist in Ravenloft. Common is more or less modern english. The 'closest' equivalent would be Low Mordentish, but it is old english and used in literrature. Barovians aren't interested in arts.
Balok is the language of trading and business in the Core generally. The language of merchants.
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As to why our natives speak common? The module is more or less designed that way. It would suck for players if none of the NPC's in the module spoke common, wouldn't it? Cezar wouldn't give you keys, you wouldn't understand Zachea's gibberish, you would feel alienated but as a player, it would be a pain. It is a matter of simplicity and we had to bend the setting a little for that. That's all there is to it. For POTM2, we are gearing more towards a Barovian native play (Barovians and Gundarakites being the focus), so perhaps it could be done, however it is a lot of trouble for close to little rewards.
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Bring on the Language Tokens.
~Rex :twisted:
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NPC "Witch" Shows up. BURN THE WITCH! Result, A Burnt Witch.
PC "Witch" Launches 50 fireballs in full view of the guards, then goes drinking in the Lady's Rest five minutes later, attends a play at the Broken Bell.
Result, a 4 page diatribe on meta gaming, hair splitting, interpret it this way that way.
I say Burn the Witch. Burn his Carebear buddies too. Maybe the Majority of the Barovians would just run away screaming. A few will go get their torches and pitchforks, whip up some MOB MENTALITY, and go handle it.
A few more may go report to the authorities and the Burgomaster can send word to the Count that he has competition and some whack job PC is burning up all the Counts property.
~Rex :twisted:
To my knowledge, if you cast spells around an NPC guard, you become KoS to their faction, so you wouldn't see this example at all.
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In fact, with so many outlanders coming from various places, if we were to be ultra-realistic, most outlanders wouldn't be able to communicate with one another as well.
Exactly... Now everyone coming from different worlds wouldnt be able to communicate with each other, since for one common is not the same n every world..
Simply put.. it would be to messy..
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I'm just confused about why Barovians would learn common at all. Their native language is Balok or Luktar. Right? Why would they go out of their way to learn a language used by the faction they fear and dislike? Granted, a merchant has an interest in this. And of course, prolonged exposure to outlanders would grant this skill. But then again, if you hang out that much with outsiders - you can't really dislike them very much. Or rather - why would you hang out with people you don't like?
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Orchson, read the replies posted instead of rehashing your examples over and over again. It is mainly an OOC thing for which we bent hte setting because:
1)Common doesn't exist in Ravenloft.
2)Common doesn't even exist in all lands in the Multiverse, a character from the Oriental Adventures setting iirc wouldn't know Common either.
For simplicity's sake...would you like your level two who just walked through the mists to talk to NPC's who would be speaking Romanian or Hungarian? Not a single NPC would speak a language you understand as a player/character. Here's how it'd go:
You: Hello
Innkeeper: Pron?!
You: I'd like a room.
Innkeeper: Pron?!
You: A -room-
Innkeeper: Se duce!
(End of conversation). You would basically interract with no NPC's, have access to about no shops and would likely stay outside at night. That's roughly how it -would- be if we were 100% following setting, but we bent a few concepts to enhance the gaming experience, including the balok/common thing.
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No matter what the setting, there is allways Some sort of "common" though it may go by a different name. It tends to be the trade tounge of the realm, the Esperanto/Interlingua of the group. As far as most of the setting books go the equivilant of common is "english" or "olde english"
It's there as a mechanic conveinance. In Ravenloft the equivilant of Common is Low Mordentish.
More native play, means more use of the native languages. Outlander common is allmost universal amongst the DnD universes (Good ole Spelljammer really worked into that a bit), with varients like Undercommon and such being around. The Term Common is just there as a generic place holder.
Plenty of real world examples of Common as well, including some that were intentionally designed that way. English is a prime example of a mutt language that just absorbs and absorbs and absorbs. It' harsh and really doesn't sound all that good (hence why, you get Italian Opera, and French poetry, Spanish Music etc) but is technically more proficiant in doing what a common tounge would do. Making Money.
Bah, really should try sleeping in something of a regular schedule. time to dig out the Ambien. :P
~Rex :twisted:
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Low Mordentish is not common, common is modern english, Low Mordentish is Old English. Low Mordentish is also only used in literrary circles, it's not a common tongue..Balok is the 'common' of the Core, but even then, only merchants speak it.
Ravenloft is not like other realms..other settings are a cohesive whole. Consider Faerun, it has an history of thousands of years as a united continent, so languages coexist, evolve over time and generally, just like on Earth, a major one takes hold. In Ravenloft however, there is no clear map, domains join at random times, others disappear..whole new cultures with their own history pop out out of nowhere. You got a Thayan domain, one based on Greyhawk, another with only mindflayers, a setting where balok is the key, etc. There is no unity in Ravenloft, there isn't a united whole..that means, there is no real common.
Low Mordentish, old english, is used by nobles mainly for arts.
Balok, romanian, is spoken by merchants who wish to trade (Barovia's currencies are the most used ones in the core).
If you want a quote, here is one taken from the Campaign Setting (page 26 - Languages):
The Dread Domains are home to widely differing and often isolated cultures. Thus, no Common language has arisen. Characters can substitute any domain language for Common to represent their native tongue and can take domain languages as bonus languages. Chapter 4 lists each domain with its native tongues. A few languages have risen to prominence in the Realm of Dread and are thus particularly useful. Each language has its own alphabet.
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Low Mordentish, old english, is used by nobles mainly for arts.
No, that would be "High" Mordentish. "Low" Mordentish is used by commoners.
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Are you sure only High Mordentish is? It states how Mordentish (not specifying any sub-branch) is the language of literature.:
Mordentish: This language is divided into two distinct dialects with markedly different vocabularies. "High" Mordentish is preferred by the upper classes, while speaking the "Low" dialect marks one as a commoner. Scholars posit that this linguistic cleft may have arisen from an imperfect melding of two separate, now-forgotten languages. The result is a highly flexible language that has spread throughout the northwestern Core. Due to its association with the culturally advanced domains of the northwest, Mordentish is widely considered the language of literature.
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well it says right there:
Mordentish: This language is divided into two distinct dialects with markedly different vocabularies. "High" Mordentish is preferred by the upper classes, while speaking the "Low" dialect marks one as a commoner
Though it's probably the combination of the two used in literature, which would make it like Middle English. ;)
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Low Mordentish is not common, common is modern english, Low Mordentish is Old English. Low Mordentish is also only used in literrary circles, it's not a common tongue..Balok is the 'common' of the Core, but even then, only merchants speak it.
Ravenloft is not like other realms..other settings are a cohesive whole. Consider Faerun, it has an history of thousands of years as a united continent, so languages coexist, evolve over time and generally, just like on Earth, a major one takes hold. In Ravenloft however, there is no clear map, domains join at random times, others disappear..whole new cultures with their own history pop out out of nowhere. You got a Thayan domain, one based on Greyhawk, another with only mindflayers, a setting where balok is the key, etc. There is no unity in Ravenloft, there isn't a united whole..that means, there is no real common.
Low Mordentish, old english, is used by nobles mainly for arts.
Balok, romanian, is spoken by merchants who wish to trade (Barovia's currencies are the most used ones in the core).
If you want a quote, here is one taken from the Campaign Setting (page 26 - Languages):
The Dread Domains are home to widely differing and often isolated cultures. Thus, no Common language has arisen. Characters can substitute any domain language for Common to represent their native tongue and can take domain languages as bonus languages. Chapter 4 lists each domain with its native tongues. A few languages have risen to prominence in the Realm of Dread and are thus particularly useful. Each language has its own alphabet.
That's known. My post was just to point out what was closest to Common in terms of the rest of the DnD cosmology. Hell we've had our run at Literary languages too that were common to different native cultures. Latin anyone? Hell, Ancient Greek for that matter.
Due to it's "literary roots" Mordentish, is as close to "common" as the Dread Realms get If you go anywhere else outside of Barovia, the odds are you're going to find more speakers of Low Modentish then Balok. The Trade Tounge in Barovia is obviously Balok, Low Modentish would be the mutt language.
Hence, need more Natives. Half of Eric's beligerance to the natives at times, is due to the fact he just doesn't really understand what they are saying to him.
~Rex
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err no. "Low" Mordentish is not a "mutt" language. The combination of both "low" and "high" dialects could be, but not the "low" dialect by itself. Low Mordentish = Old English, High Mordentish = French. Mordentish as a whole (both dialects) = Middle English.
Mordentish as a whole language (both low and high dialects) is not really wide-spread enough to be considered a "common" tongue. If you look at the domain entries in this thread: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=5246.0 you'll see that each domain typically speaks one or two primary languages, plus the languages of the surrounding domains. If anything, I'd say Vaasi is a better candidate for common, simply because there are so many domains that use it as a primary langauage scattered around the Core, and then the neighboring nations speaking it as well make it by far the most wide-spread.
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Was going to post Balok..but I might as well post all the major languages of the Core here:
Balok: The oldest language of Ravenloft, Balok spread from its native Barovia throughout the Balinoks and the southwestern Core. Balok is marked by guttural consonants and thick vowels and is not overly pleasant to the ear. However, many of the centrally located domains where Balok is spoken contain trade routes, so it has come into use as a trade tongue by some merchants and innkeepers.
Balok has spread to the southern core mainly. It is a language of trade since Barovia is a major trade route (now that there is the shadow rift, it's pretty much the best one).
Darkonese: This complex and highly structured language has not spread far beyond the borders of Darkon. However, the sheer size of that kingdom ensures that Darkonese remains significant. Many nonhumans, such as elves and dwarves, are natives of Darkon and mix Darkonese with their racial tongues, and many wizards note that the highly precise definitions of Darkonese words lend themselves well to magical writings.
Darkonese is likely the chinese of Ravenloft..it's a major language because there's a shitload of people speaking it.
Mordentish: This language is divided into two distinct dialects with markedly different vocabularies. "High" Mordentish is preferred by the upper classes, while speaking the "Low" dialect marks one as a commoner. Scholars posit that this linguistic cleft may have arisen from an imperfect melding of two separate, now-forgotten languages. The result is a highly flexible language that has spread throughout the northwestern Core. Due to its association with the culturally advanced domains of the northwest, Mordentish is widely considered the language of literature.
Language of literature as pointed out before.
Vaasi: This language, most recognizable for its harmonious vowels, is strongly associated with the cultures of the southeastern Core. By church law, for example, all religious rites of the Church of the Lawgiver must be recited in Vassi; all texts must use its script. A patois spoken in Kartakass, mixing Vaasi with the Sithican dialect of Elven, is considered highly poetic and is much favored by bards
and minstrels.
I'd consider this the latin of the Core, due to its influences and its vowels and the fact it is a language of arts and culture.
Draconic: While few have seen the wily wyrms in the Realm of Dread, their language is still the preferred tongue of magic. A few scholars suspect that the origins of Ravenloft lie in some other world, and when that world introduced the arcane arts to Ravenloft, it recorded them in the dragon's language. Regardless, Draconic is not a spoken language in Ravenloft; it is merely the wizards' conceit to keep their secrets from curious eyes.
Language of mages, the arcane language.
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Gimme language widgets!
~Rex :evil: English, the ultimate mutt language. Learn it, or it bites you in the Face!
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I can point out the real-world influences, though it looks like you're looking for analogues in usage.
Vaasi = various scandinavian languages (the writers said Norwegian, though many of our Danish players say it's Danish)
Darkonese = Latin (as Darkon is based of of Oerth's Great Kingdom, which has a vague Rome-like feel to it)
Mordentish = Old English (low) and French (high)
Balok = Romanian
Now looking at these, Vaasi is the primary language in 4 domains: Hazlan, Kartakass, Nova Vaasa, and Valachan.
It is a secondary language in all the nations that border these nations: Barovia, Darkon, Tepest, Mordent, Dominia, Invidia, Liffe, Nebligtode, Richemulot, Sithicus, Verbrek.
As you can see, Vaasi is spread from the Nocturnal Sea in the east to the Sea of Sorrows in the West, From Darkon in the north to Sithicus in the south.
Mordentish is the primary language in the following domains: Mordent, Dementlieu, Richemulot, Blaustein, Ghastria.
It's a secondary language in: Borca, Darkon, Dominia, Falkovnia, Invidia, Lamordia, Sithicus, Valachan
While Mordentish is wide-spread throughout the west, it hasn't spread to the east much beyond Invidia and Borca.
Out of the two, Vaasi is more likely to be a "common" tongue.
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I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. I'm repeating myself because I don't get answers to what I'm asking. And when I finally get to a point where I'm getting close to an answer, someone pops up and states that natives indeed know the difference between arcane and any other language in the multiverse. I ask - HOW do they know the difference?
Of course there is no "common" and "common" is implemented to make the game playable at all.
But that is not what I am asking. Stop focusing on the damn name of the language. It's besides the point. Use another one instead. I can rephrase my questions entirley if you need. Say I make a character who knows orcish instead. Then my question would be - how would a native differ between orcish and arcane language? He knows neither. He hasn't been exposed to neither. To him, a stilled spell would sound like someone saying something in foreign, and that's all.
Just scratch all the notions of common for a second. I mean - how does a native differ between arcane words and foreign languages if they're not exposed to arcane words -or- foreign languages? Surley, they are aware of the fact that some outlanders might very well speak different languages. Would they assume that someone muttering something in a foreign language is casting a spell? or would they assume that a person casting a stilled spell is muttering in a foreign language?
I have more questions about magic casting and the recognition of such by others. But I'll leave that for a new thread.
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Say I make a character who knows orcish instead. Then my question would be - how would a native differ between orcish and arcane language? He knows neither. He hasn't been exposed to neither. To him, a stilled spell would sound like someone saying something in foreign, and that's all.
Just scratch all the notions of common for a second. I mean - how does a native differ between arcane words and foreign languages if they're not exposed to arcane words -or- foreign languages? Surley, they are aware of the fact that some outlanders might very well speak different languages. Would they assume that someone muttering something in a foreign language is casting a spell? or would they assume that a person casting a stilled spell is muttering in a foreign language?
I have more questions about magic casting and the recognition of such by others. But I'll leave that for a new thread.
Well a divine caster has to invoke their god in some manner, or at least use a divine focus of some sort. You don't necessarily have to speak a foreign language to tell when someone is doing that sort of thing. The other reason is the effect of the spell itself. Aside from a bard's healing spells, arcane casters can't cast the kinds of spells that clerics can to be accepted.
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So if I interpet this correctly, a native is able to see the difference between a wizard casting a stilled remove curse, and a cleric casting a stilled remove curse? Wether or not they know the language the prayer is in or not?
I'm trying to get this clear to myself - so I don't make mistakes IG.
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Still does not mean silent.
Cleric: Oh <insert patron here>. Purge the poisons that infect this poor soul, that he/she may walk again and breathe in the air beyond their home.
Wizard with Still spell: <Mumbles off a bunch of strange arcanic words>
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Well, I think his point is that Barovians don't know the difference between random languages and arcane mutterings. However, since we decided to bend and have Barovians 'understand' and 'speak' common for the sake of simplicity, that argument is null since they would also understand what the cleric is saying unlike what the mage is saying.
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I give up, you don't understand what I'm getting at, at all. Seems my ability to express myself isn't good enough in english.
Sorry for all the fuss, I'll forget about it instead.
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The last time I posted this, you apparently ignored it/started the whole tangent of why natives speak common, so I'll repost it.
How could he ossibly differ common from arcane when he understands neither language. Sure, if he knows common he can make such an assumption. But how is he to differ it from elven. Dwarven. Orc. Or any other language? I doubt the Barovian commoner has lore enough to recognize the different outlander languages.
Bull. Talk to any npc and they will speak back to you in common. Common is, just that, common in the server's version of ravenloft.
And if your cleric is casting spells in elven, dwarven, halfling, or anything else, I'd expect to be branded a witch. (provided the spell isn't obviously healing)
I would say that remove curse specifically should be a spell that wizards could cast without -too- much fear of being lynched. That having been said, if you're a cleric casting spells in strange languages, (even ones without much in the way of visual effects) I would personally fear for being branded a witch.
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Here is my question actually. The question isn't about wizards but it INVOLVED a wizard situation and a tower full of them.
There are a Few PC's running around that do not speak "common". However, the NPC's speak "common" These NPC's are natives, many of the peasents, yet they are set up with "common" conversation.
Wouldn't it be easier to just say, Balok, IS the Common, that the realms when it sucks you in, changes your Common, to something that is understood by the native population. Hell the Drow speak Undercommon yet they get on fine with the rest of the common folk. That little language trick has been done in many the novel as well.
Babblefish would solve everything.
My question though, is over the act of Picking and Choosing what you can or can not understand. It's to much like Hair Splitting when it comes to interaction with an NPC that should be speaking Balok. If Common IS balok as far as the realms decide to make it when you are sucked in (much like it making it Mordentish if you end up there, or Vassai, or whatever depending on location), wouldn't that be easier then "bending" and having the NPC's all happen to speak Common?
I know it's just terminology, but it seems goofy to me, that Native PC can't speak to Native NPC, whenever Outlander PC's are around because now the Native NPC is "speaking common".
Gimme the widgets.
Then you get into the Native Demi Humans. Are they speaking Common? Or the Language of the Land, or their Race?
One of the single biggest aspects of Possession, witchery, that sort of thing, is the language and the babbling in tounges. It SHOULD be an issue, when someone starts shouting gibberish (be it Draconic as some settings, Ancient this or that in others), lightining falls out of the sky, man eating panthers listen to their beck and call, and they can make things disappear at a whim........that those annoyed by Magic, get to react to it, whether in fear or denial.
~Rex :twisted:
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Language widgets? Hmm... well, most of my characters speak at least one language native to Oerth, their homeworld. Seems every country and human subrace there has its own language, in addition to the "common tongue". Most countries there have a list of the languages most of the people from that country speak, including humanoid and demi-human languages. Making a widget for all of them... well, not sure that's wortht he hassel.
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Nah. But it would solve the god modding some people do, who from the start of their characters can speak languages they shouldn't be able to speak. Humans speaking elven is one example, outlanders speaking Barovian is another, etc etc.
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Humans speaking elven is not "godmodding". I could list over a dozen countries just in Oerth where elven is one of the country's commonly known languages.
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It was just an example. Don't get too excited. I can make other examples if it makes you more comfortable.
Some people just "wants" to be able to speak stuff. Some will even claim that since they have so high INT they should be allowed to know a multitude of languages.
But all and all, it doesn't matter. The purpose of playing a PW world is not only to enhance your own RP, it's also to enhance the RP of your fellow players. And when some people who have no right to a certain language, takes away everything that is special about the factions who do have a right to speak it - they're not doing the community a favour.
My point wasnt the examples. But that some people will claim to know languages so they can respond to insults, claims, questions, etc etc. It's god modding, because many of these people grant themselves abilities and knowledge a DM in PnP would deny them. The thing with PW is that there is no DM looking over your shoulder at character creationg, saying "eh, dude. You're half orc. You don't know elven no matter how high your INT is. And no - you were not adopted by elves, and no you do not have 10 elven friends. Period. Now get your shit together, focus on your barbarian class instead."
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No offence meant, but perhaps then letting a DM know who are those people that "godmod" their chars and ruin your/others' RP are would be better than just mentioning this in general on the forum....
Just my two cents.
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Oh, I can totally agree with people fresh and new to the realm from another world being able to speak native languages is unrealistic and not RP. Would be like someone from Toril understanding a language from Oerth (like the Cold Tongue) or any other example along those lines. But, if a person has legitimate RP reasons to know an odd language (like a human knowing elven, or an outlander who has been in Barovia for over a decade learning some local tongues), then others should respect that, too.
For the record, when I have a character that starts off knowing multiple languages, I have them listed in my "Examine" Bio thing page, which you can check in the game. Included is the reason why the character knows the languages, typically because the languages are considered common knowledge in their home country.
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No offence meant, but perhaps then letting a DM know who are those people that "godmod" their chars and ruin your/others' RP are would be better than just mentioning this in general on the forum....
It's not needed if we get a widget. The problem will solve itself if we do.
Otherwise - still no. See, I don't want to leap off to the DMs and whine about someone knowing a language they shouldn't, then get told off that their characters have a legimate reason to know those languages. Instead, it's better with a widget. That way, no one can claim to know other languages from the start, and thus the problem never rises. Because then, you can trust that if someone understands your language, then it's been stamped with the approval stamp of the DMs.
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that assumes Orchson, that DMs have nothing better to do than hand out language widgets and approve peoples' roleplay, which is entirely NOT the goal of the server
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not so hard to send a tell to a DM saying "Hey, my char can speak elven for such and such a reason, I have this much int, can you drop me a widgit?"
I asked a DM permission before having Lucia understand Elven- she was raised in a community with a high elven population, in a church that tends to be freindly towards the elves. And has 14 int.
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My natives speak native languages. My Outlanders speak Outlander stuff. When natives flake off around Eric speaking nothing but Native speak, he walks off spitting epitaphs in Cold Tounge or Oerth Accented Common.
Good old Spell Jammer, Allways liked how they equated Common as "the English of Great Briton/America. Throw an American, an American fro mthe South, A Brit, a Welshman, an Irishman, and a Scot, and a Cockney Lad all in the same room, and see if anyone understands each other.)
Still though, there is NOTHING wrong with the magic of the "Dark Powers" twisitng your inborn common into the native tounge. Happens all the time in Literature, and makes more sense then Natives not being able to speak to native NPC's when a non Native just happens to be within ear shot.
Now back to magic, like EO has pointed out, Barovia is not that quick on the trigger finger of the Burn the Witch assault. However neither are they going to ignore repeated blatant witchery either. There is no such thing as a Magical Character, that doesn't know what Magic Is. If you A Bard, a Sorcerer, a Wizard, a Cleric or a Druid, You know what the freakin hell Magic is.
None of this "But I'm a Bard I just sing!" crap. It's very plain in the rules what happens to Bards when they get flashy. There is no being a Bard of Power and not knowing you HAVE POWER. You can allways go the learning to control it, but Denial only goes so far.
The same for the Language. Bring on the Widgets because if the Native NPC's are speaking "spelljammer common", and the Natives constantly play up the fact they can't understand the NPC dialog when Outlanders are around, then I want Widgets. I also want those natives seeing nothing but gobbldey gook from the NPC's if they can't "understand them".
As for the Magic Again. Regardless of the lethality (and I do like the guards whacking familiers now), there are repercussions for thine actions. Fireball at your own risk. BAROVIANS on the other hand, KNOW magic is real. They just Hate it. Even Gothic Earth understands Magic is real even if they choose to "ignore" most of it.
~Rex :evil:
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not so hard to send a tell to a DM saying "Hey, my char can speak elven for such and such a reason, I have this much int, can you drop me a widgit?"
I asked a DM permission before having Lucia understand Elven- she was raised in a community with a high elven population, in a church that tends to be freindly towards the elves. And has 14 int.
it's not, but we're getting dangerously close to forcing roleplay... and one DM may think "x reason" is fine while another will disagree...
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that assumes Orchson, that DMs have nothing better to do than hand out language widgets and approve peoples' roleplay, which is entirely NOT the goal of the server
As opposed to 3 billion tells about every character percieved as god modding the language skills?
I hardly think checking out possible language god modders is a better way to spend their time.
There is no such thing as a Magical Character, that doesn't know what Magic Is. If you A Bard, a Sorcerer, a Wizard, a Cleric or a Druid, You know what the freakin hell Magic is.
None of this "But I'm a Bard I just sing!" crap.
Agreed. Totally. Bards don't "sing" their magic. That's the bard song feat. The spells are just that - spells. Including a verbal component, a somatic component, and possibly some ingredients. But the caster might not be able to explain why it works. But aside that, all of them should know what magic is.
not so hard to send a tell to a DM saying "Hey, my char can speak elven for such and such a reason, I have this much int, can you drop me a widgit?"
I asked a DM permission before having Lucia understand Elven- she was raised in a community with a high elven population, in a church that tends to be freindly towards the elves. And has 14 int.
it's not, but we're getting dangerously close to forcing roleplay... and one DM may think "x reason" is fine while another will disagree...
That's why you code it into character creation - so when the character is created he understands a certain number of languages. An elf character would for an example get to know common and elven, while a native would get (for an example) Balok and common. Also - it's not super difficult to make an easy "who may speak what" rule. I've seen this system on another server, and it works like a charm. You'd see elves stand about going "speaks elven." And all you can do is go "huh?"
In either case, it's better than what I have seen so far. I wouldn't mind pointing out a possible god modder to the DMs, if it was just a very limited number of examples. But that's not how it is. There's A LOT of this language stuff around, where people know all sorts of languages just because they "wanna."
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Which brings you back into having to assign a mechanic on the sheet to represent what you should be able to Learn and Know. Intelligence grants you Bonuses. It does not limit how many you can learn since that is a SKILL in DnD.
Since the skill is not added to the Bioware stuff (though it can be and I have seen it many ways), you need an equivilant. Most use Lore. Every 4 skill levels in it gives you another language to learn. 2 would let you speak it, but not write it.
Or Widgets. Widgets are nice. NOW, enough language. Back to Magic.
Bard Magic. Oh they still Sing, But, thats just their VERBAL part of the spell. Many a great Fantasy book with Musical Magic. Still it's a Spell, Still Magic, and Learned the same way Sorerers do. Just tuned up a bit differently.
Wizards though have the option of going the Scientist route, or at least the fantastic science/alchemy/ether lore/chaostech. Without even having to cheese it. I would still say though if you want to go the more techno way, you should talk it over with some DM's first.
Arcane Casters should spook the Natives the most. Divine Casters the least until they do something REALLY visual, Druids in the middle. Regardless of amount of spooking, the simple matter is the Natives Don't LIKE magic. Don't Trust it, Don't want it around. But as I said they KNOW it exists, and therefore, aren't going to go wander off into the land of denial.
They go running down the street screaming.
~Rex :twisted:
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Yeah.. But no native would go seek out a magic user to "punish" them.. even if they know said spellslinger can use magic, they would just rather ignore their existence until they are actually threatened by the spellhurler..
It´s rather logical really and i´ve said it before.. What use is a mob when the mage can just incinerate you with a Fireball? It´s foolish to go after a spellslinger unless there is a REAL reason to percieve him/her as a threat.. And hey, incinerating a mob of lvl 2 commoners is not that hard, and I would go "what the hell!" if my mage couldnt pull it of since hey, commoners are common.. You wont see a lvl 10 commoner, anywhere, ever...
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Bring them on. If a mob of 20 commoners come strlling up with their burn-the-which-switch flicked on. You go. "Nice." Then smack on greater stoneskin, acid sheath, elemental shield, and death shield. Then you turn around and let them go nuts. They won't even touch you. Promise.
I'd like to see a native PC going "whitch" then have the mage go "look, mention a word of this to anyone, and I'll curse you, your family, and your familys pets. Then I'll send you all to my masters, the evil demons of native-eating. So shut your mouth about this, or it'll be the doom of both you and everyone you know." And then have the native PC go "ok, sorry. I'll pass out now."
If Natives are afraid of magic, then why on earth would a mob dare to go close to a person who evidently has the power to turn them all to ashtray contents?
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Irrational. And they don't know to what extent the witch can fuck them up, mobbings have worked for them in the past, it might work again. A mob usually forms when one or more people decide they are 'brave', then others group up, then it adopts a mob mentality and a mob mentality is ugly.
Anyhow, if said mage does that, then he is wanted. Strahd hates nothing more than people slaughtering -his- citizens. If you kill 20-30 peasants with your magics, then yes, then you become a problem to him..and while he won't ride on a black nightmare to hunt you down, he will likely issue a proclamation or find a way to get you dead.
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Right. But scaring them off won't result in Strahd getting upset, right?
I mean like, shapeshifting into a dragon, then going "you had better run now. Boo!"
Or maybe something smaller. Burning off a fire ball somewhere, where it won't hurt anyone.
Just saying that with the commoners fearing magic, it shouldn't be too hard to scare them off.
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I'd like to see a native PC going "whitch" then have the mage go "look, mention a word of this to anyone, and I'll curse you, your family, and your familys pets. Then I'll send you all to my masters, the evil demons of native-eating. So shut your mouth about this, or it'll be the doom of both you and everyone you know." And then have the native PC go "ok, sorry. I'll pass out now."
ok one on one here for an example like this if you did this to elisea for example threatening her etc. I almost guarantee she would attack with whatever she's got. Threatening folks even commoners is dangerous and i'd think in the exmpale where you turn into a dragon and scare DEFENITLY would get strahds attention and get him a weee bit ticked cause he'd proably thinkg something like "That mage has that potential he might be a threat, better learn more about him" or something Strahd wont put up with any rivals or so i get from reading my various sources for the setting
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Bring them on. If a mob of 20 commoners come strlling up with their burn-the-which-switch flicked on. You go. "Nice." Then smack on greater stoneskin, acid sheath, elemental shield, and death shield. Then you turn around and let them go nuts. They won't even touch you. Promise.
I'd like to see a native PC going "whitch" then have the mage go "look, mention a word of this to anyone, and I'll curse you, your family, and your familys pets. Then I'll send you all to my masters, the evil demons of native-eating. So shut your mouth about this, or it'll be the doom of both you and everyone you know." And then have the native PC go "ok, sorry. I'll pass out now."
If Natives are afraid of magic, then why on earth would a mob dare to go close to a person who evidently has the power to turn them all to ashtray contents?
Yeah see, people keep thinking at the top end of the food chain. It takes very little to kill even a 20th level wizard if they get up close and personal. You're sitting in the Tavern, yucking it up, 20 people run in and start beating you with pitchforms and torches, you ain't casting Jack!
~Rex :twisted:
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But the thing is, barovians tend to themselves.. At least thats what everything i´ve read says.. And as long as the "witch" does nothing to arouse their anger they will just ignore the witch..
Barovians have no religious motives nor any other motives to form a mob to hunt down witches, they want the witch to be as far away as possible and then they wouldnt want to piss of said witch if it got close..
No ordinary barovian has enough knowledge of what a witch can do, ergo safer to stay away. And just like with our witch hunts, the ones most commonly caught and burned were not witches at all.(seeing as witches dont exist anyway)
THE important thing concering natives vs mages is "Why draw attention to yourself and risk death and worse?"...
Keep reactions proportional.... Seeing a mage cast a non-undead creating spell would probably not have you run to the closest guard yelling witch.. Natives prefer to ignore over acting, it´s easier after all..
And Strahd would probably not care much if 30 peasants were torched.. It has happened before and no consequence has come of it in game.. we´ve been told numerous times that Strahd couldnt care less.. And yeah, I´ve read "I, Strahd" and the followup.. So I know his reactions in those books..
And seeing as Elisea is a witch herself.... heh... ;)
Everyone seems to forget fear as usual.. I see no fear of mages, only hatred.. While related, the fear should keep people in check. Otherwise someone would probably already have offed Strahd.. He is hated, feared and by many thougth of as a demon..
Think like this, if your character would attack the Vistani even knowing of their curses and shit, then likely they would be stupid enough to attack a witch.. If not[shrugs].....
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Barovians have the best of ALL motivations to pull it off. YOUR NOT BAROVIAN.
Spend some time in a xenophobic country or a country that just Hates you for no reason that really matters. You'll understand.
~Rex :twisted:
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But the thing is, barovians tend to themselves.. At least thats what everything i´ve read says.. And as long as the "witch" does nothing to arouse their anger they will just ignore the witch..
Barovians have no religious motives nor any other motives to form a mob to hunt down witches, they want the witch to be as far away as possible and then they wouldnt want to piss of said witch if it got close..
No ordinary barovian has enough knowledge of what a witch can do, ergo safer to stay away. And just like with our witch hunts, the ones most commonly caught and burned were not witches at all.(seeing as witches dont exist anyway)
THE important thing concering natives vs mages is "Why draw attention to yourself and risk death and worse?"...
Keep reactions proportional.... Seeing a mage cast a non-undead creating spell would probably not have you run to the closest guard yelling witch.. Natives prefer to ignore over acting, it´s easier after all..
And Strahd would probably not care much if 30 peasants were torched.. It has happened before and no consequence has come of it in game.. we´ve been told numerous times that Strahd couldnt care less.. And yeah, I´ve read "I, Strahd" and the followup.. So I know his reactions in those books..
And seeing as Elisea is a witch herself.... heh... ;)
Everyone seems to forget fear as usual.. I see no fear of mages, only hatred.. While related, the fear should keep people in check. Otherwise someone would probably already have offed Strahd.. He is hated, feared and by many thougth of as a demon..
Think like this, if your character would attack the Vistani even knowing of their curses and shit, then likely they would be stupid enough to attack a witch.. If not[shrugs].....
1)Most witches in the setting are subtle and not casting in public. If they would, they would be shunned and driven out more or less. They would be hated and feared. They might not get killed, but no witch wants to live in the woods on their own or be refused bread by the baker.
2)It doesn't matter if it's light or Apocalypse from the Sky, the use of magic means the person dealt with some dark demon and as such is an evil demonic fiendish creature of doom (exagerating).
3)I suggest you read one of the tales in Tales from Ravenloft (a nice collection of shorts) ; one has Strahd travelling in the West as Vasili von Holtz and hearing about bandits pillaging villages. He quickly leaves his carriage (subtly!), goes in bat shape and flies there where he proceeds to kick their sorry asses and save a child. Strahd cares about Barovians, he is a 'fatherly' figure to Barovia because Barovia is his. You kill his peasants, it means you destroy -his- property, and he cares about his property. Same reason he hates and despises Vlad Drakov, because Vlad sends his troops (his people) on endless campaigns that are doomed solely for his ego. Strahd would come down hard on someone that caused mass slaughter and slayed people. That's told quite a few times in the setting. Of course, his obsession for Tatyana tempers this to an extent, but he will come out to pwn those people or just issue proclamations (his favorite way of ruling).
4)Natives wouldn't attack a witch head on, but if they form a mob, then they will be irrational and they will stone the witch to death (be it a real witch or not). They have no religious zeal prompting them to burn all witches, but if they hear dark tales about one, a couple of brave Barovians might take justice in their hands and issue death...which is midly effective. If the witch then reacts by pwning that mob and more, then the witch becomes a criminal, ergo is wanted..and if Strahd hears of a witch slaying dozens upon dozens of people, he likely will care.
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Damn skippy. Those Peasents ARE Strhads.
No one disses Strahds peeps in his crib. The Von Zaronizzil be opening up the Gat and busting some pain on them asses fer tagging his ho's like that. Vamp be big pimpin in the Hizzouse, Yo!
Word...
~Rex :twisted:
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Yeah see, people keep thinking at the top end of the food chain. It takes very little to kill even a 20th level wizard if they get up close and personal.
If the wizard isn't buffed - yeah. Very easy to kill. But I can guarantee you can't make a fighter who can beat a buffed up level 20 wizard in melee. I can also guarantee you that the wizard will have more to ab and damage than you will as a fighter. Knockdown doesn't really help when you take 25 damage per hit you do, and the mage takes 0. And that is assuming you hit someone with 50% concealment and an ac pushing 40.
And yes, you can get that. I can screetshot the stats for you if you wish.
You're sitting in the Tavern, yucking it up, 20 people run in and start beating you with pitchforms and torches, you ain't casting Jack!
Quick spell - invisibility. Bye bye.
As for the spells vs commoners
However you twist it, my point is that if you flash some serious powerhouse spells. Perhaps greater stone skin and/or some nifty shit making you invulnerable to their stone chucking and pitch forks, then I don't see why they'd attack. And you don't need to torch all 30 of them. You don't even need to torch a single one of them. You can cast yourself into the immune-to-almost-anything™ then walk off.
Of course, a mob mentality will be violent. But only mobs with a desperate need to succeed will oppose force. Look at demonstrations. Think people were like "yeah, let's storm the military" in China when they gunned down a good 130 people on that town square? No! People were running for their lives.
I can take the riots in Gothenburg for an example. You'd see these punks throwing rocks at the police, until one of the policemen gets fed up and shoots this dude in the belly. Then everyone just vanished in mid air. It was almost like magic to see those people disappear. I know - I was there when it happened.
I've been told I disregard how agressive people can get out of fear. Sure - but that's right back at you. You overestimate the instinctive wish to die a horrible death. When that first commoner stabs his pitchfork at the wizard and gets 26 acid damage all over his body - chances are the others will back off or just plain run in panic.
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Its happened before.. I have said strahd would care, and then I get told "No he wouldnt".. I´ve read the whole Tales Of Ravenloft... So I knew what I was talking about back then to.. Just as i´ve read most if not all the books featuring Strahd and I know that he would care in the first place if there were mighty spell-hurlers in his land..//edit.. Simply because Strahd wants more knowledge and power.. Mages have knowledge..
But yeah, I give up.. Send the mobs..
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all it takes to turn Wizard McBuffy into a corpse is one dispel
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all it takes to turn Wizard McBuffy into a corpse is one dispel
or a good stun fist followed by quivering palm (and just a note i tested it ona buffed up lvl 20 wizard the monk was setup EXACTLY like dragrin mage went down on a roll of 5 or less but still) ;)
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Anyway you look at it mobs do not consist of the smartest people. Most are drunks and looking to prove something......So drunk, testosteroned out males looking to prove something.... backed by others egging on...... means 30 people going after stoneskinned mage. Reminds me of some riots after a hockey game in Vancouver. Yep people with rocks going after riot gear police! Billy clubs, tasers, sandbag guns and water cannons. One stoneskinned mage, vrs 30 people with pitchforks, clubs and torches. They'ed do it. No problem. Not that it makes sense. But then riots don't make sense.
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all it takes to turn Wizard McBuffy into a corpse is one dispel
or a good stun fist followed by quivering palm (and just a note i tested it ona buffed up lvl 20 wizard the monk was setup EXACTLY like dragrin mage went down on a roll of 5 or less but still) ;)
If I had that 20th level mage, you'd be a slight ashy mark underneath a Balors foot. PWNED!
(http://www.forumspile.com/Owned/Owned-DogEatCat.jpg)
Booyah!
~Rex :twisted:
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all it takes to turn Wizard McBuffy into a corpse is one dispel
Which no natives can possibly know, and cast while lynching the guy, without themselves being blamed for witchery. Aside that, unless the one casting it is caster class, you'll fail fail fail trying to break the DC. Most likley.
or a good stun fist followed by quivering palm (and just a note i tested it ona buffed up lvl 20 wizard the monk was setup EXACTLY like dragrin mage went down on a roll of 5 or less but still)
Then he didn't use acid sheath. That thing does a minimum of 20 damage per time YOU succeed in hitting the mage. Monks having 6 attacks/round means that if you hit all of them, you'd take 120 damage, per round. And you'd do 0 damage unless you crit. Premonition is 30/+5. Monks don't get +5 fists until epic levels.
One stoneskinned mage, vrs 30 people with pitchforks, clubs and torches. They'ed do it. No problem. Not that it makes sense. But then riots don't make sense.
Again - acid sheath. Each person touching the wizard would die in 1 round. A commoner does not have 100 hp to spend.
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People, against a well-buffed mage, you can't do shit unless you push epic levels. Why? Because the mage would retract 30 damage from your attacks,and you would take 20+ damage each time YOU hit the mage. And that is assuming the mage does nothing. Now, if it was a mob of level 20 fighters - then yeah, you'd own him. But if it's a mob of commoners - no. They'd die, every single one of them. And the mage wouldn't even have to lift a finger.
A retarded mage who doesn't know what the hell he's doing with his spells, would most likley get pwn3d by the mob. But a mage with three simple spells and a normally-functioning brain could never ever at any given point EVER, get killed by a mob of commoners.
Even when you push into epic levels, you'll have a hard time cracking that wizard. He'll time casting his premonition so you get the worst possible chance to interrupt, and then it all just starts over. If he's in a real pinch, he'll just go invisible and chuck down a couple of heal potions.
There's a reason mages are often nerfed beyond belief on PvP-servers. The reason being - nothing can touch them. Not even if you van IGMS and bigby spells. The best chance to beat a mage is always to catch him off guard. Come running from behind a corner - THAT will work. Coming from a distance, in a group, with torches - won't work. Especially not if you're a bunch of commoners with crap for equipment.
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This isn't even countiong fireballs. But, there is something to note.
Strahd tends to get involved when people start exploadiating his peasents.
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As he should. Slaves are expensive, and breed slowly.
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They're not technically slaves- Strahd supposedly doesn't approve of slaves. They're his people, and he's very protective of them. Like a pyschopathic, tyrranical father.
"I am Strahd, I am the Land"
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Its happened before.. I have said strahd would care, and then I get told "No he wouldnt".. I´ve read the whole Tales Of Ravenloft... So I knew what I was talking about back then to.. Just as i´ve read most if not all the books featuring Strahd and I know that he would care in the first place if there were mighty spell-hurlers in his land..//edit.. Simply because Strahd wants more knowledge and power.. Mages have knowledge..
But yeah, I give up.. Send the mobs..
Strahd wouldn't care about random mages nor would he mug them for their knowledge. He would care if a mage slaughtered 30-40 of his peasants and was walking around torching his land.
And peasants aren't slaves..they are closer to his children as Doom said. He's like a fatherly figure to them and all of Barovia.
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Plus, it takes generations of in-breeding to produce such a backwater, xenophobic, superstitious, and severe lack of logic mentality that is "Barovian". Having them slaughtered after so many painstaking efforts to get them thinking exactly the way he wants naturally pisses him off, especially after generations of keeping such ideals as detuctive reasoning and revolt as foreign to their minds as magic is. "Slave" is a word he may dislike, but its a way of life for the natives, whether they realize it or not. Cattle aren't considered slaves, either.
As for Strahd not caring about random wizards and such, in the novels Strahd would take a personal interest in any and all arcane casters entering his realm, as well as anyone showing any signs of power whatsoever. You didn't have to walk around killing people to get his attention, it just got his attention quicker.
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1. Yes. A buffed up mage would be invulnerable to a mob of commoners.
2. An unbuffed mage might have troubles, as the mob piles onto him, and shoves knives and pitchforks into his gut.
3. Mobs are easy to form, but they are also (fairly) easy to dispell. A mage could probably drop just one or two people with magic missle, or turn into something really big and nasty looking, and the mob would flee in terror.
4. I still would love to see some more mob violence on the server, whether it be aimed at real witches or no. :twisted:
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I don't think Strahd consciously works ignorance into his people- With the exception of keeping them illiterate to prevent them from knowing he is a Vampire. Rather, their attitude is a side effect from his absolute authoritarian control- and also possibly a pyschological effect of him being the Dark Lord. Strahds mind is stagnant, stuck in the old age. The land itself morphs to match his attitude. According to the Gazeteers, this the case in Lamordia. Because of the obsessiveness with Science that Victor Mordenheim had while he was dark lord, the people of Lamordia themselves are supernaturally compelled- cursed, if you will- with the same skeptic disbelief. To the effect that in Lamordia, there is actually a constant 2% chance that magic will fail for no reason.
They probably are a little inbred too ;3
As for Strahds association with other mages, we see an odd juxtaposition in his personality there. Though his obsession is with the past, he isn't a crippled idiot like Vlad Drakov is. He can still accept new concepts, and is one of those rare dangerous people who will let others teach him new things because he has an eagerness to learn. He learnt his salient vampire powers from Jander, and learnt his necromantic might from Azalin Rex. I can see Strahd viewing other mages not as competition, but as potential sources of knowledge. If they display interesting tidbits of Magic that he himself does not possess, then he may approach them to try and coax it out of them.
If secrets aren't forthcoming, he may take what he wants to know by force.
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I seem to recall a bit of Strahds history, buying books of magic from some merchant or other etc etc .....Oh wait, that was brought up. Something to do with his Origin as well.
Barovians know magic is out there. They Hate it, Fear it, maybe even are jealous of it. But they don't live in a box, nor are they compelled by their land to be ignorant of it like Lamordia.
Besides, Vallaki especially, is a Trade Hub. Those folks are going to see even more of it.
~Rex :twisted:
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Well, with magic being one of the main ways to kill lycanthropes and powerful undead like vampires, then you would think that the peasants living in a land plagued by such things would want magic around, not hate it. The only real logical reasoning would be that Strahd, like any real ruler, would slowly seed the thoughts of his subjects (using spies and such), creating this generations long misconception of magic. This would keep magic out of the common man's hands and make the vampiric ruler more secure and safe, since his peasants cannot even hurt him if they wanted to. So, this fear and hatred of magic that the Barovians have seems almost as if it is an intentional working of the master of the country, keeping them in their place and keeping him in his position of power. Plus, whenever someone shows up with magic, they are treated with a certain amount of "flare" that other outlanders are not, further pointing such mages out to the land's ruler. The whole anti-magic mentality does seem rather ignorant and self-destructive considering the surroundings. Only the truly brain-sponged would not realize that if magic weapons can kill the big nasties, then we should probably have someone make some magic weapons... oh, wait, no... we killed all of them... I mean, even the outlanders have figured out they need magic weapons, and they've only been here a month. A bunch of hicks that have been here their whole lives are still kicking the "hate all magic" dead horse? Its a wonder they even have a town. Oh, and why do all the guards have +2 magic weapons if they don't like magic?! There's a contradiction. At least they were smart enough to realize they needed magic... pity that intelligence only goes as far as getting their own gear.
And, the inbred comment comes from the fact that the community is xenophobic, even towards other countries within the Core. After several generations... They also behave rather inbred, including logic, conclusions, and overall behavior. (that bug of killing children was funny, and I still think it was intentional)
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Hills Have Eyes, Deliverence, stuff like that is Inbred.
Barovia, is eastern block Europe. Hatred is Easy in that Europe. So is Xenophobia and Us vs Them. There are also Elves not far off, elf breeds right outside the gates, dwarves not far, trade partners from the core.
And Magic. They Just HATE you (the player) because you are not one of THEM. Plenty of that in the real world to use as an example. It's not supposed to make any sense, it just IS, but it is certainly not due to Inbreeding and bad genetics. (though I could tell you stories of such between Russians, Poles, Ukranians, Turks, Germans, Danes, Serbs, Croatians, Khazakastan vs Uzbekestan, etc etc etc etc .......Hell, Reform Baptist vs Southern Reform Baptist (religion makes it even easier).
They know what a Witch is, a Wizard type, etc....and that ticks them off even more. Hate Fear Jealousy, bit of beer, MOB.
Bonfire. Or, lot of locked doors when some Outlander is looking to duck into the Tavern with 6 werewolves on his ass.
~Rex :twisted:
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rex everytime i read one of your posts i either
A. have this part of me that dies.
B. you tickle some weird part of my brain.
or
C. make me reread your posts and go WTF? :lol:
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anyhow if someone wants to go bufffing up there said PC to monumental levels sure go ahead but if said mob shows up expect IC reactions for IC actions ;) ok off to bed
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rex everytime i read one of your posts i either
A. have this part of me that dies.
B. you tickle some weird part of my brain.
or
C. make me reread your posts and go WTF? :lol:
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anyhow if someone wants to go bufffing up there said PC to monumental levels sure go ahead but if said mob shows up expect IC reactions for IC actions ;) ok off to bed
All Christmass trees eventually end up in the Trash. :lol:
~Rex :twisted:
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Saying they are like a specific peoples from a specific area, like eastern block Europe during a certain time period is one thing. BUT, people from that area and time did not have real werewolves roaming the night. A few thought they did, but that did not make them hate silver. No, they actually wanted more silver because of it. They didn't have vampires and other undead that required magic to harm them, either magic items or magic spells. In the areas that they did think there were vampires around, the local peasants encouraged holy items, rather than attack people wearing them, but this is in a land where magic doesn't exist. If it did, then they would not be out trying to kill off wizards or anyone else that casts an arcane spell, knowing full well that magic hurts and can kill such "night nasties". The Barovians obviously know that magic hurts such creatures, since their guards all use magic weapons. Only inbreeding and bad genetics could explain the severe lack of common sense involved in their reaction to arcane. Its nothing about disliking outlanders, its the whole hating magic aspect that really shows their ignorance. Oh, and if they "hated" outlanders, they would attack them all on sight.
Sheer logic only supports the conclusion that the Barovian reaction to magic is something that was intentionally molded into their psyches by Strahd over the centuries, through spies, magical influences (charms, suggestions, etc), and misinformation, as a means of keeping something that can hurt him out of the hands of his subjects.
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The Native Barovians don't understand magic, and they think it's the very thing that causes the horrors of the Night. That damned mage probably CREATED The blood drinking (Barovians mix up werewolves and vampies all the time in their lore) manbeast!
It's like calling a satanist, to exorcise a Demon. No one really expects a Satanist to WANT to exorcise the demon.
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It's not inbreeding it's upbringing...
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And peasants aren't slaves..they are closer to his children as Doom said. He's like a fatherly figure to them and all of Barovia.
Must be why they call him "the devil Strahd" then. I call my father a devil all the time too.
Not.
3. Mobs are easy to form, but they are also (fairly) easy to dispell. A mage could probably drop just one or two people with magic missle, or turn into something really big and nasty looking, and the mob would flee in terror.
Oh yeah. I'd love to see a mob form. But I'd love it equally if that mob then dispersed when the witch did something magical. Not because mages are powerhouses. But because I find a serious lack of fear from natives.
Well, with magic being one of the main ways to kill lycanthropes and powerful undead like vampires, then you would think that the peasants living in a land plagued by such things would want magic around, not hate it.
Not if they think magic users take their power from demons, and eventually will summon demons either intentionally or unintentionally.
It's like calling a satanist, to exorcise a Demon. No one really expects a Satanist to WANT to exorcise the demon.
Precisly what I was thinking. Aside that, if Barovians don't know anything about magic, then it's a pretty far leap to assume they understand that magic hurts the beasts of the night. Having a magic weapon doesn't matter one bit - because it's assuming they know it's magic. To them, it could just as easily be "blessed" "holy" or just "well smithed." How would someone without any knowledge in the arcane detect a weapon as magical?
Though, I am sure they are aware of the fact that magic ca be used to slay the beasts of the night - it won't matter if they also think that the magic is the cause of the beasts. It's like trying to lessen the rate of gun-related murders by handing out handguns. To a Barovian, the magic users are the cause of the beasts. Not the solution. If the casters would just go away, the beasts of the night would go with them - or so the Barovian believes. After all, they're fed horrid tales throughout their upbringing, with tales of magic causing horrible horrible things.
Even those few with a lore skill would point at the calibans saying "look what magic causes."
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If they think magic is the cause of it all, then why do the guards have +2 magic weapons? Obviously, they realize that magic can kill lycanthropes and powerful undead. Sorry, this fact alone shoots most of that out of the water.
Barovians are just "duh-dee-duhs", plain and simple.
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If they think magic is the cause of it all, then why do the guards have +2 magic weapons? Obviously, they realize that magic can kill lycanthropes and powerful undead. Sorry, this fact alone shoots most of that out of the water.
Barovians are just "duh-dee-duhs", plain and simple.
No that's mechanics, ask the development why they did it that way if you're wondering while comparable level PCs can't get that gear. ;)
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I am not wondering why comparable level PCs can't get that gear; I am pointing out that the NPCs of Barovian faction and mentality use magic, so they know magic will harm the "night nasties". With that in mind, they still "hate" arcane casters, the very people that create such weapons. Either they are the numbest people to ever exist or someone is pulling their strings. Not hard to figure that out. Since everyone seems to be saying that no one is pulling the strings, then they must be "duh-dee-duhs".
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I think it was more a lazy choice then a conscious design decision to give them +2 swords. They wanted Elite Guards to have something that could harm were's and other things so they weren't totally gimped by PC's or monsters during events. They just gave them +2 swords cause it's alot simpler then just making a new weapon.
I love making items and NPCs, but it's discouraging to carefully design a NPC, subtly altering it's stats, feats, and skills- and then remembering you have to precision tune their equipment too.
I doubt the Guards realize their weapons are "magic". And, not all Barovians necessarily fear magic. Apparently some of the Burgomaster hoarde it (in secret), and the practice of magic is NOT illegal.
Guard just let peasents massacre witches. And alot of Vallaki guards are peasents themselves, and thus retain their xenophobic mage massacring instincts.
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If they think magic is the cause of it all, then why do the guards have +2 magic weapons?
As I said, because they might think they're "holy" weapons. A native has no way of differating between an actual divine weapon and a magic one. Also, it's not necessary that the weapons have been "enchanted" in the normal sense. Some ingredients when crafting will create certain properties. Like beetle mandibles will result in a weapon doing fire damage. You assume they have any sort of knowledge about ingredients having magic properties, or that weapons made in a special way might gain magic properties.
Remember that Natives have no knowledge of the arcane, so stating that they "know" the weapons are magic is faulty. They have no way of knowing that. The only indication is that the weapons hurt the beasts of the nights, but so do silver weapons, without being magic per definition. It doesn't take an arcane user to make a magic weapon you know.
Also, it's quite possible that those who know a bit more of how things work, are the ones issuing the magic weapons. Nothing says that the guards know their weapons are magic. They might think it's just another weapon. Unless it makes an obvious visual effect - how would the Native then know it's magic?
Guard just let peasents massacre witches. And alot of Vallaki guards are peasents themselves, and thus retain their xenophobic mage massacring instincts.
You could say, that arcane users are feared, and that if they use their powers, no one will save them from being stomped by the masses. While a fighter might get some rudimentary protection from the guards if natives are the ones who try to start trouble - a magic user can expect no form of backup what so ever.
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Then it goes right back to the point I had. Several generations and they still have not figured out that magic hurts the swarms of lycans and powerful undead plaguing their land, yet it takes an outlander a few days to figure it out. Obviously, no one is that stupid. Any intelligent person new to the land would deduce that something is going on. Someone's pulling the strings. No one can grow up in a place like this and not realize that magic hurts the "night nasties". Full circle, right back to where I started. Brainwashed. Conspiracies. Strahd's ultimate failsafe.
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it's more because they hide from the nastiness than that they fail to notice... there probably "realistically" hasn't been a native fighting a werewolf for two or three hundred years
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No Barovian would believe some foolish, mad outlander. They claim to come from different worlds where the gods talk to them. HAH! They're all lunatics.
Besides, everyone knows folklore- which ahs been passed down since before recorded history, says the only way to destroy a vampire is to spit on your shoe and kick it in the ankle.
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Several generations and they still have not figured out that magic hurts the swarms of lycans and powerful undead plaguing their land, yet it takes an outlander a few days to figure it out.
But they think the magic users are what causes those creatures. Don't you understand? A Native wouldn't use magic to remove the creatures since they believe it's the magic who spurs the creatures. To a native, using magic to remove the beasts is like trying to put out a fire using oil. It will only serve to make the problem even worse.
No one can grow up in a place like this and not realize that magic hurts the "night nasties".
They understand that magic hurts the beasts. But they also believe the magic is the cause of it. What use it in a natives eyes to crush a wraith with magic, if the use of that crushing spell will spawn 2 new wraiths somewhere else?
Full circle, right back to where I started. Brainwashed. Conspiracies. Strahd's ultimate failsafe.
Only because you don't seem to read any of the replies.
1) Natives understand that magic is powerful - partly why they fear it.
2) Natives understand that the magic can be used to whipe out beasts.
3) Natives think that the use of the magic is what CAUSES new beasts to appear. So using it to remove the beasts is the true idiocy in the natives eyes. Why on earth use a medium that creates more problems than it solves? Not to mention you risk losing your very soul to demons if you dabble in magic. Or so the natives believes. These beliefs can only be disproven by Natives learning what magic is, and how it works - and then successfully dispensing that knowledge to the rest of the community - something that will never ever happen.
In short - what does it matter if magic can be used to remove beasts when the use of the magic in itself causes (but is not limited to):
* more beasts
* corruption of your soul
* increasing the power of demons
* cursing your bloodline
* making all your sandwitches land with the butter down
* be the sole reason you don't get a promotion
... etc etc etc.
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Believe me, it's something -alot- of people struggle with though. Ravenloft is an odd, odd place...
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I'll give Ripkill one thing right though - it's scary as hell that these people refuse to evolve beyond their petty superstitions and values. But I dare to say - what is even more scary - is that there's places like this RL too. Exposure to new things and solutions does not denote people implementing it.
After all - we still have wars RL.
We all know better than to have wars. But we have them anyways.
Knowing a better solution does not mean you believe in it, or make use of it. Rather, people have a tendency of clinging to old ways and beliefs. As if those beliefs would save them from the possible horrors out there.
Naives of Ravenloft being no exception.
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The replies only further what i am saying. Of course I'm reading them. By saying the excuses, you are listing what they are being brainwashed into believing, since no logical person would think that way. You say them like the excuses are the bottom line, face value, but someone had to tell them that magic was evil. Someone had to tell them that magic cursed you, magic made the caliban, etc, etc. Someone is pulling the strings and has been for generations. My point again.
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By saying the excuses, you are listing what they are being brainwashed into believing,
That's still assuming someone is brainwashing them. Stories, myths and legends can all be spurned through very different channels.
since no logical person would think that way.
Faith, superstition and/or beliefs has nothing to do with logic. And don't even go there, keep in mind that religion (wether or not they're true) are just as much faith as superstition is. Logic has nothing to do with it. Opposing that makes an ass of whomever opposes it. Einstein, Mendel, Darwin, Aristoteles, etc etc, were all intelligentl people, far outdoing any of us posting on these forums in logic. And yet, they all had a faith. While not being superstition like we normally view it, it's still included in having faith in a truth or a system you can't prove.
Claiming that "logical" people would dismiss already widly accepted facts is to disregard how the human mind works. Just the "fact" that you can summon beasts with magic is enough for learned natives to claim that beasts of the night is spurned from mages. After all, if they're not spawned by magic - where did they come from? Where do undead come from?
I'm sorry, but your arguments is just plain flawed Ripkill. Logic does not denote knowledge, and logic per definition would not tell anyone in Ravenloft that the dangers of the night does NOT have something to do with the presence of magic. In fact, even an outlander caster could easily construct a theory saying that it is indeed the casters that cause the high amount of magically empowered and blood thirsty monsters.
You sit on OOC knowledge about Ravenloft, hence, you can spur theories. But to your character, it could in fact be some mage somewhere creating these creatures on purpose, with a defined goal. It's the same for Natives. They believe that when someone casts magic, they are gathering their powers from demonic sources.
An illiterate people, with no prior knowledge about magic, brought up on stories about the evilness of magic - could in no way come to the conclusion that magic is just a tool.
If I told you the holocaust was a good thing, and that the Nazis were right, you'd probobly disagree with me, and even dislike me. The same reaction is gathered by Natives when confronted with magic. It shouldn't exist, and those times it do exists, it's always bad and will always result in demon summoning in the end.
It's neither misinformation fed to them by some higher power, or a notion of stupidty. It's simple human nature, and simple reactions from an illeterate population beset by dangers every day of their lives.
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I myself faced the misconception where I expected Strahd to be pulling lots and lots of evil overlord strings on the top. I found however this was not the case.
Suprising as it is, Strahd is apparently... more or less just chilling at the top. If you want an evil overlord with his insidious tendrils in everything, you want Azalin Rex. Strahd just sort of occasionally levies taxes and drycleans his one suit.
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I myself faced the misconception where I expected Strahd to be pulling lots and lots of evil overlord strings on the top. I found however this was not the case.
Suprising as it is, Strahd is apparently... more or less just chilling at the top. If you want an evil overlord with his insidious tendrils in everything, you want Azalin Rex. Strahd just sort of occasionally levies taxes and drycleans his one suit.
I DARE you, to sit around in public, and loudly talk shit about "The Devil Strahd". Double Dare you!
~Rex :twisted:
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Guards will take care of you if you do that, not the Count.
Barovia's system is so well-done that even when the Count goes missing for years on end, the system still functions properly. A good example of that is when Van Richten went to read Strahd's diary (I, Strahd); Strahd hadn't been seen or heard of for the past 15 years and yet, the taxes were still being collected, the laws enforced and no signs of rebellions or anything had shown up. His rule is such that he doesn't need to be physically there to be obeyed; people do it out of fear. That's the beauty of Strahd, he is as distant as it gets, yet he is still respected and obeyed due to the fear factor. He's a looming presence, a distant threat.
In fifteen years, Lord Strahd had not collected the taxes, though the taxes had been dutifully compiled, the burgomaster proudly stated. There were many old wives' tales about burgomasters who had failed in this task and had come to very bad ends, indeed. Just wives' tales, to be sure, but sometimes there was truth to be found in such fancies. Anyway, none of the villagers, let alone the burgomaster, would risk complaint from their lord. The money, quite a lot of it by now, was stored in a special stone house in the center of town. Thieves? No. They had no fear of thieves. Even the gypsies would not dare to touch it.
Also in that time there had been few unexplained or unusual deaths, as had once been common. Young girls in the prime of their looks no longer disappeared without trace—unless they decided to elope with their lovers. Fifteen years of relative peace, fifteen years of nights that were not so dark as before, fifteen years that Strahd had… left them alone.
Some cautiously whispered that perhaps Death had caught up with him at last and taken him away. But if so, then why was the poisoned wall of mist still thick about the castle base? No one had a reply to that one, nor were any too curious to find out. One could ask the gypsies: they knew everything. Aye, and told everything. To Strahd. Best not to ask; you might not like the answer.
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When a tax collecter shows up, I'll be impressed. The Shakedown would be hillarious.
~Rex :twisted:
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Taxes are already levied in the bank and the rate is rather high already. Anyhow, this is not a discussion about game mechanic taxes, but rather about Barovian culture.
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If I told you the holocaust was a good thing, and that the Nazis were right, you'd probobly disagree with me, and even dislike me. The same reaction is gathered by Natives when confronted with magic. It shouldn't exist, and those times it do exists, it's always bad and will always result in demon summoning in the end.
In point of fact... my Grandfather was present when they liberated Auschwitz... The locals denied that the camp was even there AT ALL, and even after seeing it for themselves, they refused to believe that they knew about it and should have done something. The natives are the same... especially since there ARE magical explainations for the creatures... Necromancers make undead, Magic makes liches who also make undead, ergo Magic=undead. And there's "logic".
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I made like 5 paragraphs for this, but decided it was beating a dead horse.
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I made like 5 paragraphs for this, but decided it was beating a dead horse.
Spill It. Enquiring Minds wish to know. Besides, its just a forum. Hmmmm, come to think of it wasn't Julius Cesare in a Forum once?
~Rex :twisted: What's the worst that can happen?
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*sharpens his daggers and dons his toga*
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Et Tu, Johnus?
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On topic please guys, Barovia, Player choices and Magic.
Thanks.
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We all know barovians are idiots.. Lets leave that behind ;)
Personally I think removing the +2 weapons from Elites, and normal guards(yes those have them to, at least they did) would further the setting. To me it makes perfect sense that barovians would fear the creatures of the night more if they couldnt hurt them.. Imagining the barovians seeing their best warriors trying to hold of a few werewolves but instead falling one by one even though their weapons bite home every strike but not making any wounds.
As it is, it would at least require a Werewolf Lord to finish one Elite Guard.
As it is now, natives hunt mages when they gather a mob and get drunk. A great warrior(elite guard) fells a werewolf with his nice and not very mundane looking(probably) sword and goes to boast at the tavern or at the barracks to his fellow guardsmen with similiar swords. As guards are as stupid as peasants, wouldnt the conclusion become that they also formed a mob and went out to rid the world of werewolves, since obviously they can do it, just as the normal peasants every now and then chops up a mage..
If they "think the same they would act the same".
Let them have the normal guard weapons, and give out magic to named NPCs only since that actually keeps them "special"..
Maybe add a few named "heroic" guards that have proven themselves, that walk the streets, and have the +2 weapons.. That would to make NPCs that people would encounter and fear/admire.. Just an idea..
Edit: Adding: Another reason... Unnamed NPCs are not special in any way and therefor should not have anything special, beyond the norm of their faction, meaning the starting equipment of the faction.. Named NPCs and PCs are persons that have risen above the rank and file and therefor could have special items like silver, magic weapons etc.. 2 or 3 Elite guards with normal guard weapons can handle just about everything easily but those things they rightfully fear, witches and the other creatures of the night and that makes them equipped for the job that they are supposed to do.
"Heroic" named guards could potentially deal with the other things, but keep a limit on them(Like Demi-Lich said 5 is a nice number), make them resistant to magic. Generally make them about as skilled as an Elite but add some other properties to them, such as SR, give them a few healing pots of a decent strength etc so they can last.. But please then, make them only show up against major threats, not for example a lone werewolf smashing at the gates :lol:
//As pointed out, these are just ideas that I personally think would further the horror feel and keep magic "special".. (even if there are alot of mages atm)
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I actually really like the idea of "Heroic" guards. In addition to PC guards... have maybe a pool of 5 named guards only one of which would be on the streets at any given time.
Maybe equip the elite guards with either silver weapons or weapons with +1 vs. undead rather than the full blown +2 eb swords.
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I've lead monters to the NPC guards before for help.
I agree - lets make the guards as vunerable as we are... it would be nice to see those guys strive and die... which triggers the big boys to roll out in 1-2 minutes.
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What about Bards ? Is there magic considered witchcraft ? or songs of power ? Ive been told bardic healing is ok, but have heard conflicting reports on other magics.
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What about Bards ? Is there magic considered witchcraft ? or songs of power ? Ive been told bardic healing is ok, but have heard conflicting reports on other magics.
Though Barovians believe in magic, the vast majority of them have never seen it in practice, at least outside of the local cleric. Most folk regard magic as a secret as old as time and riddled with spiritual risks too terrible to contemplate. Arcane magic is practiced only in secret in Barovia, as the common folk believe that all such power is a gift granted by demons. These fell blessings can be bestowed in the womb (sorcerers) or deliberately sought out by the deranged (wizards), but it makes little difference to the fearful peasant mind. Even bards must be careful not to reveal themselves as anything but wandering performers in this land. Since popular opinion holds that arcane spellcasters are unquestionably the minions of evil, the agents of the boyars and burgomasters rarely discourage violence against them. Villages are rife with tales of suspected spellcasters lynched in full view of idle Barovian soldiers.
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T : Thanks for the quick response, that helps alot.