Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: ILLY6666 on June 02, 2016, 06:05:15 PM
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I've been reading a little here and there, and nowhere have I seen explained exactly HOW you bring forth your familiar.
Where are they meantime, when not summoned?
If we go by the WYSIWYG rule of NWN and PoTM overall, then they are clearly being 'summoned' into existence.
But, what I want to know is; what happens really? Is there any source for this?
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Seeing as nobody has any answer, on Arawn's suggestion; why don't we discuss what kinda meta do we want for summoning wizard/sorc familiars?
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I'm not entirely sure myself, when I was on my wizard I had an owl and use to emote it flying down from a tree or such,
when in a cave I just wouldn't summon it. But I'm not sure if that is right or if you just summon it, I got it from watching
others emote their familiars. Would be good to have clarity on it though.
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For some years now, I've tried to RP both familiars and animal companions as always present in the game world. When I "summon" them, it's really just calling them over from near by.
Consequently, I never summoned my druid's wolf when deep in a dungeon since I figure the wolf wouldn't follow there unless asked and if it was called, it'd take a bit to even get there. I also typically had my wizard's familiar present when taking say, Vistani wagon trips, to enforce the idea that the familiar is really always present and needs to travel with the Vistani to get through the mists.
Sometimes the wacky wizard forgot his familiar to the previous place and couldn't summon him over in the next place without going back to fetch him.. ;)
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I really wish that we didn't have the summoning circle effects present. Animal companions certainly shouldn't appear with such a magical looking visual, and I think to a lesser degree, that familiars should not have it either.
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Isn't it part of the Ravenloft world mechanics that anything summoned there remains there?
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I've been reading a little here and there, and nowhere have I seen explained exactly HOW you bring forth your familiar.
Where are they meantime, when not summoned?
If we go by the WYSIWYG rule of NWN and PoTM overall, then they are clearly being 'summoned' into existence.
But, what I want to know is; what happens really? Is there any source for this?
For me when ever I summon Yvette's Fox Vivienne, I usually rp it as Yvette whistling for her or calling for her in some fashion to explain the summoning of her familiar. Like wise I rp I usually rp tossing food away or sending it to hunt for rabbits or mice or other delicious things foxes like to eat when i unsummon it.
Isn't it part of the Ravenloft world mechanics that anything summoned there remains there?
I believe so.
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Isn't it part of the Ravenloft world mechanics that anything summoned there remains there?
That is my understanding as well, so I've always assumed that any familiar/companion is either native to the setting or was trapped there when their master entered the demi-plane. I don't think there's anything wrong with someone emoting that their familiar is actually flying down from the sky or emerging from nearby trees in lieu of actually summoning them. It all depends on your RP and what you prefer. My own companion doesn't normally leave the Svalich Woods ICly, so I only "summon" him when I'm in that area (in my case, he just walks up rather than getting summoned). For some it might make more sense that you're summoning your friend from wherever they hangout when not with you and returning them there when you release them.
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Isn't it part of the Ravenloft world mechanics that anything summoned there remains there?
Summoning spells can't cross planar borders and instead call in a creature from the surrounding regions. When the spell ends, the creature is returned whence it came from. So if you used the SRD Summon Creature I to summon a celestial dog, you'd instead wind up with an ordinary stray dog from a near by city. Unless there happened to be a celestial dog somewhere in the domain you are in.
Calling spells can cross planar borders and can call in a demon or an elemental. These creatures are indeed trapped to the Domains of the Dread. When the spell duration ends, your control over them is voided and they are likely to be pretty pissed at you, especially if evil-alignmented!
AFAIK familiars follow the 1st rule if handled as being literally summoned, so they were already stuck in the domain. Though if you go by the more detailed specifications as in an article about summoning familiars at Wizards.com (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050920a), then "summoning" a familiar is actually a binding ritual and the animal had to be present to begin with. Familiars gained in Ravenloft would take the form of Dread Companions. Familiars brought from the outside are not turned into Dread Companions and are as before.
The root issue at least to me really is that familiars shouldn't actually unsummon when you rest or anything. After they are summoned, they stick around until the mage cuts the bind or the familiar is killed; whether you deal with "Summon Familiar" as a binding ritual or as actual summon spell, the familiar was still originally an ordinary creature.
Of course we have implemented none of this (except some familiar persistence in the form of familiar corpses), but essentially this would be how it would work. :)
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As I understand it, and has been said mostly before in this post, a familiar is not summoned from somewhere else (other plane) but a local animal is made into a magical animal for the wizard or sorcerer that calls it. in a way it's personalized magical animal, that's why there is strong link.
PH 3.5 page 52 " A familiar is a normal animal that gains new powers and becomes a magical beast when summoned to service by a wizard or sorcerer."
I always thought that the summoned in the line from the PH was just a way to say that it was magically lured to serve the wiz/sor.
That being said, a familiar always stays with you pc, after being lured with magic, till dead (-200xp DC fort 15 half) or dismissal. and the /summoning/, after reset or other, in NWN is just a game technical thing, it is not a IC thing.
I have seen people play this out nicely be saying things like, "ooh, that's my cat.. she is invisible most of the time." or " I beter bring Bruno to the woods before we go in there, it might be dangerous."
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As I understand it, and has been said mostly before in this post, a familiar is not summoned from somewhere else (other plane) but a local animal is made into a magical animal for the wizard or sorcerer that calls it. in a way it's personalized magical animal, that's why there is strong link.
If we go by that WotC article linked above, then the to-be familiar could be called from another plane and then had the binding ritual done. So you can have an imp for a familiar by first calling it (or buying it from your local Thayan enclave) and then having it hang around to be made into your familiar (as long as your wizard had the Improved Familiar feat).
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I wish we had a uniform opinion/ruling for this. I see people using it many different ways. I've always RPed it as a 'summon' of sorts, since in NWN thats what it is. The mechanics operate that way, and I don't like to stray to far from the mechanics (as this can often leave room for cheesing). Sure, thats not what it is in standard PnP, but NWN has different mechanics.
In PNP, a familiar is not subject to a dismissal or banishment spell, but on NWN it is. (Of course, in Ravenloft Dismissal doesn't 'dismiss' it either, just out-right kills it, since we have the custom raising system).
I also see ALOT of times, when people try to use a familiar or companion in combat, that they 'dismiss' it right before it going to be killed. If its not a summon, you shouldn't be able to do this. The animal would have to stay there and die. So if we are to RP it as a non-summon, there needs to be mechanical support to enforce it, you know?
I would like to just think of it like a summon, personally. Pulling your linked animal from wherever it is in Ravenloft to your side, and then sending it back when you unsummon it. Mechanically it behaves as a summon, why not treat it that way.
In regards to this...
I have seen people play this out nicely be saying things like, "ooh, that's my cat.. she is invisible most of the time." or " I beter bring Bruno to the woods before we go in there, it might be dangerous."
Thats the sort of thing that I worry about when there is no concrete ruling. You can't RP abilities you don't have. A familiar doesn't have the ability to turn invisible.. where do we draw the line? Can I say my familiar's flying overhead and spying on people, since that
realistically -could- be where its at? Granted, most of the time their explanation is harmless (I.e. the whistling and calling and all that).. but once we start allowing more unique explainations, where do we stop or what goes to far?
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I whole-heartedly agree with Hatsune's reasoning on this.
Again, referring to the WYSIWYG model on PoTM, it's clearly a summon capable of appearing and disappearing at command (a limited amount of times / rest).
I think the DEVs need to make a ruling on this and if needed implement the necessary mechanics to support that ruling or there'll simply be little consensus on this.
I've a worg familiar which I've always RPd as appearing from a black mist that my sorceress conjures (since summon is a conjuring spell and conceptually, black fits worgs).
Perhaps I've been doing it wrong all this time and I'll gladly change my RP depending to what ruling there is to be had.
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No one's done anything wrong here, as there are no hard rulings about this.
I share the opinion that we should only set down specific rules if we have the mechanics to back them up. Far as I know, at this time, no one is working on redoing the familiar and animal companion systems and I doubt it would even be very practical with NWN.
Therefore I'd say that people can either try to RP it in line with the PHB or the Wizard's article or as it appears in NWN itself.
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I don't remember there being anything about familiar logistics back 3.5 books, but they are regular animals who are bound to a wizard which implies that they just hang around the wizard like Ash's pikachu. That is sadly not very useful for NWN. I think 5th edition familiar fits quite well with NWN mechanics however, and even though it is not the edition the game and server is based on, it is official content nevertheless and that can count for something. Following bit is from the description of "Find Familiar" spell of 5th edition core rulebook, and it is the relevant part to us:
"As an action, you can temporarily dismiss your familiar. It disappears into a pocket dimension where it awaits your summons."
To my knowledge, pocket dimensions are not independent of the plane they are in. There is also the possibility that the pocket dimension is in the ethereal plane, which would mean that the familiar is virtually under the effect of a greater sanctuary spell until it is summoned. I feel that the idea of pocket dimension or ethereal plane works with NWN mechanics and does not violate any of the server or setting rules.
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Familiars are separate from summons. Familiars are creatures that wizards/sorcs bind to themselves via a ritual. The creature never actually vanishes or unsummons, that's just a limitation of the NWN engine.
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Familiars are separate from summons. Familiars are creatures that wizards/sorcs bind to themselves via a ritual. The creature never actually vanishes or unsummons, that's just a limitation of the NWN engine.
To be honest, given that the critter would just dash into combat and die, I like it better this way.
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Familiars are separate from summons. Familiars are creatures that wizards/sorcs bind to themselves via a ritual. The creature never actually vanishes or unsummons, that's just a limitation of the NWN engine.
To be honest, given that the critter would just dash into combat and die, I like it better this way.
Yeah, as far as I'm concerned the act of unsummoning is just the familiar exiting the scene.
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Pocket dimensions I think would be within the Mists, and becoming pocket domains.
That is my guess, based on the description of rod of security in PHB 3.0
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Or maybe there is a ruling on this, just the game masters are being quiet until now. :think:
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There's no ruling; it's one of those things that are up to players to RP.
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My sorcerers pet lives in his robe.
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I have a shadow themed sorceress whose asp lives inside her stomach.
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I have a shadow themed sorceress whose asp lives inside her stomach.
That's pretty damn metal. \w/
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I have a shadow themed sorceress whose asp lives inside her stomach.
That's pretty damn metal. \w/
It's also very Roger Zelazny... though the story I'm thinking of borrows from a lot of other classic horror fiction, so I guess I could be wrong.
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I work with a shadow that has a mind of it's own. :P sometimes I RP her raising on her own, or me calling her from the ground.
sometimes the shadow will move along the ground still attached.
either way.. working with shadows... #ShadowDancer Life.
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I really wish that we didn't have the summoning circle effects present. Animal companions certainly shouldn't appear with such a magical looking visual, and I think to a lesser degree, that familiars should not have it either.
I would think it should be possible to remove the visual effect, since you can alter the visual effects of spells and even do custom spells. Although if the visual effect is generic to all summons, then it might be removed for all summons. Perhaps a developer can chime in on whether this is feasible, or just not worth the effort.
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In reading about witchcraft, I see that some believed familiars were non-corporeal spirits that could become corporeal only by drinking the blood of their witch. This is why moles and such were viewed as signs of witchcraft: they were the spot where the familiar suckled. Therefore, one reasonable interpretation would be that at least some supernatural-type familiars when unsummoned go to the near ethereal plane, much like other spirits.
On a completely unrelated question, other than buffing dexterity, is there any way to raise a pixie familiar's pick lock skill?
That is, regardless of which items you have such as thieves' tools, you cannot transfer any inventory bonuses to a pixie.
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Casting knock on them helps as well.
But yush, it tends to depend where i am for how i treat my familairs appearence. More often then not it is a summoned into being, given its used mostly in dungeons and it just makes more sense that way then a worg some how walking through the ML temple and going into the crypts alone to seek out my char who has need of them.
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There's no ruling; it's one of those things that are up to players to RP.
Well seeing as the game engine does not support your familiar or animal companion being present at all times, I don't think you should roleplay something that isn't supported as that is cheesing. The familiar or animal can only be summoned once per rest and it uses a summoning visual, and requires an action, so if you follow the WYSIWYG rule (this is magic) you should take it how it is. These are summons. They are also affected by Dismissal and Unsummon, so they have mechanics that further cement summoning.
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I think that we shouldn't be too absolute in the WYSIWYG ruling when it goes to regarding things which do not directly affect other PCs or make you have powers which you shouldn't have.
For example, it would be cheesing to claim that your familiar cat is always around and since they have a good hearing, they heard what PCs whispered away from you.
Or, it would be cheesing to emote that your imp just attacked from the shadows even if it actually didn't attack anyone.
However, if you have your familiar interact with the world when it is actually summoned, I do not see a problem.
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I just rp it as my familiar is in some pocket dimension just chilling out. Kind of like a bag of holding.
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I just rp it as my familiar is in some pocket dimension just chilling out. Kind of like a bag of holding.
My take on it is similar, but with a decidedly negative slant. Most familiars probably aren't going to like being set adrift in a void, and Aela has had to make concessions to allow Hyla to fly over to Degannwy (the only place they know that accepts her) whenever it was feasible instead of properly unsummoning her.
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I feel the urge to make a joke about Necromancers for some reason, but I can't put a decent one together. Four years dead, little Timmy, and you doth rise again.
Familiars are WYSIWYG. They aren't there, unless they're there. If they're claimed to be elsewhere, it must be on the person. I've seen snakes played that way before, like Shadow Asps, where they are within the jacket/robes/coat of a person, but for things that aren't a coiling serpent, there's really no realistic way to go about it. A Hellhound, Beholder, or otherwise do not have a way to be. Even having a set of Bat bones in your inventory would not constitute the correct rules, as summoning a familiar is summoning them to you, not re-animating a set of bones constantly.
It's among the mechanics not worth overthinking too much.
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I feel the urge to make a joke about Necromancers for some reason, but I can't put a decent one together. Four years dead, little Timmy, and you doth rise again.
Familiars are WYSIWYG. They aren't there, unless they're there. If they're claimed to be elsewhere, it must be on the person. I've seen snakes played that way before, like Shadow Asps, where they are within the jacket/robes/coat of a person, but for things that aren't a coiling serpent, there's really no realistic way to go about it. A Hellhound, Beholder, or otherwise do not have a way to be. Even having a set of Bat bones in your inventory would not constitute the correct rules, as summoning a familiar is summoning them to you, not re-animating a set of bones constantly.
It's among the mechanics not worth overthinking too much.
What are the logistics of having a Hellhound on your person, exactly?
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I feel the urge to make a joke about Necromancers for some reason, but I can't put a decent one together. Four years dead, little Timmy, and you doth rise again.
Familiars are WYSIWYG. They aren't there, unless they're there. If they're claimed to be elsewhere, it must be on the person. I've seen snakes played that way before, like Shadow Asps, where they are within the jacket/robes/coat of a person, but for things that aren't a coiling serpent, there's really no realistic way to go about it. A Hellhound, Beholder, or otherwise do not have a way to be. Even having a set of Bat bones in your inventory would not constitute the correct rules, as summoning a familiar is summoning them to you, not re-animating a set of bones constantly.
It's among the mechanics not worth overthinking too much.
What are the logistics of having a Hellhound on your person, exactly?
You've misread the context of my post.
I've seen snakes played that way before, like Shadow Asps, where they are within the jacket/robes/coat of a person, but for things that aren't a coiling serpent, there's really no realistic way to go about it. A Hellhound, Beholder, or otherwise do not have a way to be.
That is to say, Hellhounds, Beholders, or otherwise do not have a way to be [on your person.]
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For my self personally I have A hellhound Familiar who for RP reasons is not summoned but instead Hiding in the woods and surrounding area of where my PC is at the time. And Summoning her is just calling her to me.
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For my self personally I have A hellhound Familiar who for RP reasons is not summoned but instead Hiding in the woods and surrounding area of where my PC is at the time. And Summoning her is just calling her to me.
Was that not the very thing BSR was suggesting was improper?
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I don't see what's so wrong about calling the familiar or companion to you if you're not cheesing that it's on lookout when it's not even summoned. If you make the concession that it doesn't come back with any (metagamed) information, and don't overthink that part too much, you're fine. There is no need to look further into the 3e/3.5 rules about this, because the way we do familiars is already against the tradition of the tabletop game. We also see very little roleplay concerning familiars because they are a hassle to control, keep alive, roleplay simultaneously with your own character, and they are possessed of numerous glitches, so disincentivising it more by putting them in a box is not a pro-roleplay move. The server's no metagaming rule is easy to understand, this doesn't cross that line. When it does, it's because of a bad faith player, who should be handled on an individual basis.
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I've been reading a little here and there, and nowhere have I seen explained exactly HOW you bring forth your familiar.
Where are they meantime, when not summoned?
If we go by the WYSIWYG rule of NWN and PoTM overall, then they are clearly being 'summoned' into existence.
But, what I want to know is; what happens really? Is there any source for this?
What I have always been told, is they are following you and hiding nearby. Hence no summoning. They are just hiding (in your pocket, behind a tree, whatever)
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For my self personally I have A hellhound Familiar who for RP reasons is not summoned but instead Hiding in the woods and surrounding area of where my PC is at the time. And Summoning her is just calling her to me.
Was that not the very thing BSR was suggesting was improper?
That is what I was arguing against summoning seems like it is just a mechanic thing and perhaps in some cases that happenes but then the question becomes where do they go when you unsummon them? And that opens up even more inconsistancys with the lore.
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Thread necromancy revived this discussion, but it's one that hasn't come up for a little while, at least.
The ability to instantaneously conjure and dismiss your familiar or animal companion precisely once per rest cycle is a convention of Neverwinter Nights. If you don't elaborate IC on where the creature came from, everyone else has to find ways to rationalize how it got there.
If you have to explain IC where your familiar came from/is/went, just make sure the explanation doesn't rely on anything that can't be true, like that your death dog has its own room at the Governor's Hotel, your raven is in an area where other players actually are, or your beholder left Vallaki through streets that have NPCs who would've attacked it in them.
If you want to be a champ, you'd also restrict your use of familiar summoning/dismissal to when you aren't in a scene with other players at all.
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I feel the urge to make a joke about Necromancers for some reason, but I can't put a decent one together. Four years dead, little Timmy, and you doth rise again.
Familiars are WYSIWYG. They aren't there, unless they're there. If they're claimed to be elsewhere, it must be on the person. I've seen snakes played that way before, like Shadow Asps, where they are within the jacket/robes/coat of a person, but for things that aren't a coiling serpent, there's really no realistic way to go about it. A Hellhound, Beholder, or otherwise do not have a way to be. Even having a set of Bat bones in your inventory would not constitute the correct rules, as summoning a familiar is summoning them to you, not re-animating a set of bones constantly.
It's among the mechanics not worth overthinking too much.
Wow, I become a co-necromancer...
BSR, farther back in this thread it was quoted by Exordium that there is no hard ruling to familiars. While they are constantly bound they can be wherever the player wants them to be as long as it wouldn't break other rules as Marcus said.
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For my self personally I have A hellhound Familiar who for RP reasons is not summoned but instead Hiding in the woods and surrounding area of where my PC is at the time. And Summoning her is just calling her to me.
Was that not the very thing BSR was suggesting was improper?
Correct.
I feel the urge to make a joke about Necromancers for some reason, but I can't put a decent one together. Four years dead, little Timmy, and you doth rise again.
Familiars are WYSIWYG. They aren't there, unless they're there. If they're claimed to be elsewhere, it must be on the person. I've seen snakes played that way before, like Shadow Asps, where they are within the jacket/robes/coat of a person, but for things that aren't a coiling serpent, there's really no realistic way to go about it. A Hellhound, Beholder, or otherwise do not have a way to be. Even having a set of Bat bones in your inventory would not constitute the correct rules, as summoning a familiar is summoning them to you, not re-animating a set of bones constantly.
It's among the mechanics not worth overthinking too much.
Wow, I become a co-necromancer...
BSR, farther back in this thread it was quoted by Exordium that there is no hard ruling to familiars. While they are constantly bound they can be wherever the player wants them to be as long as it wouldn't break other rules as Marcus said.
The rule is that it's WYSIWYG, it's technically not illegal at all to roleplay summoning them. Trying to overcomplicate and explain the convention of where they are is a slippery slope at best. Simultaneously, nobody can punish you for just saying you're literally summoning them, because it's a NWNism until the mechanics change.
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WYSIWYG is mainly for spells and spell-like abilities. https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=22855.msg274799#msg274799
Summoning your familiar isn't really such thing, so WYSIWYG doesn't really apply, hence why the DM team haven't made any hard rules about it.