Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Mayvind on November 09, 2015, 12:57:40 PM

Title: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Mayvind on November 09, 2015, 12:57:40 PM
the description said +5 but now is +4 when use. I understand nerfing Greater Magic to +4 at level 20 but but Why the varnishes ? It should be unique ! is not easy to obtain or make it should remain +5. Do I need to be a Paladin for +5 ???  ;)
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Vasile on November 09, 2015, 01:06:31 PM
They nerfed the damage reduction spells (stoneskin, imp stoneskin etc) to be 10/+4 etc etc. I am not 100% that this is true for all the reduction spells, but aside from missing out on +1 ab nothing was really lost here.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Mayvind on November 09, 2015, 01:19:46 PM
Premonition is +5 and is hard killing Knight Mage with just +4 they cheat and prebuff  :roll:
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Bad_Bud on November 09, 2015, 01:31:14 PM
Take the good with the bad, Mayvind!
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Vasile on November 09, 2015, 01:32:49 PM
Yeah I can see how that would be a problem, but it's good that player crafted things can't completely bypass a mages defenses. You can probably take it down with one or two other buddies spamming KD on it, and use an invis purge if he has concealment.

Or get a mage with spell breach. Either or.  :D
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Merry Munchkin on November 09, 2015, 07:24:08 PM
Premonition is +5 and is hard killing Knight Mage with just +4 they cheat and prebuff  :roll:

Greater Spell Breach -- make friends with a wizzy buddy :)
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Syl on November 10, 2015, 08:42:38 AM
* whistles twirling morticans' disjunction scroll* Always keep one handy! :)
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 10, 2015, 08:56:33 PM
Is Mortican Mordenkainen's lesser known, younger brother?   :D
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Syl on November 10, 2015, 11:56:03 PM
Is Mortican Mordenkainen's lesser known, younger brother?   :D

Lets see you spell Mordenkainen's when you don't very often :P also was at work so couldn't look up the name. LOL but you get who i was refering to..So.. yes.. Mortican is his younger undpoken of brother that was used to testing his spells on.... Poor Mortican.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Merry Munchkin on November 11, 2015, 12:45:25 AM
I guess that would also be the brother of Morticia, of the Addams Family.

Cara mia!
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Kendric98 on November 11, 2015, 07:17:08 AM
I guess that would also be the brother of Morticia, of the Addams Family.

Cara mia!
I think its cada mia isnt it?
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Syl on November 11, 2015, 08:01:11 AM
Yea bunch of numbskulls LOL

and it is Cara mia which translates from Italian to Beautiful darling.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Kendric98 on November 12, 2015, 08:34:01 AM
Yea bunch of numbskulls LOL

and it is Cara mia which translates from Italian to Beautiful darling.
Yay points for me!
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: DrXavierTColtrane on November 12, 2015, 09:04:25 AM
Yea bunch of numbskulls LOL

and it is Cara mia which translates from Italian to Beautiful darling.
Yay points for me!

We're going (delightfully) off topic, but...

Gomez is  Castilian. He often responds with this endearment when Morticia speaks French. So on one level it's a joke if he's a Spaniard speaking Italian in response to French.

On another level, if he's speaking in his native Spanish, he would be saying, "my face."

After all, he's a pretty ridiculous person :)
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: THE STREET WARRIOR on November 18, 2015, 04:36:09 AM
I think this should be looked at again. Alchemy has all of it's usefulness siphoned out of it as of now. Every element can be cast on weapons now, except lightning and acid I think.
Having +5 on the greater varnishes would give the craft a sought after varnish. They're consumable, the ingredients are fairly difficult to stockpile a large quantity. As of now the craft is only good for arrows and enchanting essences. Please show alchemy some love, thanks.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Bad_Bud on November 18, 2015, 06:24:54 AM
I think this should be looked at again. Alchemy has all of it's usefulness siphoned out of it as of now. Every element can be cast on weapons now, except lightning and acid I think.

Lesser varnish: 1d4
Flame Weapon: 1d4
Darkfire: 1d6
Frost Weapon: 1d6
Sonic Weapon: 1d6
Strong varnish: 1d8
Greater varnish: 1d12

How is this useless? Also are you aware Stoneskin and Greater Stoneskin are now X/+4 damage reduction rather than X/+5?
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Knas on November 18, 2015, 07:15:50 AM
I think this should be looked at again. Alchemy has all of it's usefulness siphoned out of it as of now. Every element can be cast on weapons now, except lightning and acid I think.
Having +5 on the greater varnishes would give the craft a sought after varnish. They're consumable, the ingredients are fairly difficult to stockpile a large quantity. As of now the craft is only good for arrows and enchanting essences. Please show alchemy some love, thanks.

Don't forget the fact that alchemy is available to ANYONE. That means non casters gain access to a large portion of the caster library as is. I see no reason why it should be made better than the actual spells. It wasn't before the change and I doubt we'll change it to be in the future.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: THE STREET WARRIOR on November 18, 2015, 08:45:20 PM
I think this should be looked at again. Alchemy has all of it's usefulness siphoned out of it as of now. Every element can be cast on weapons now, except lightning and acid I think.

Lesser varnish: 1d4
Flame Weapon: 1d4
Darkfire: 1d6
Frost Weapon: 1d6
Sonic Weapon: 1d6
Strong varnish: 1d8
Greater varnish: 1d12

How is this useless? Also are you aware Stoneskin and Greater Stoneskin are now X/+4 damage reduction rather than X/+5?

There's 3 greater varnishes available, fire, ice and negative. Negative you will never get enough to have a good inventory of to make use. 80-85% of the server is immune to either fire or ice or both. Anybody worth their salt in pvp will have high immunity items to elemental damage. You literally have to go to hell to get the greater ice and fire essences, and you will pull maybe 2-3 ice and 3-5 fire in your group if you share and this takes hours. The +4 magic varnish being applied to an enchanted shield or armor does next to nothing, is it worth burning on an enchanted weapon, nah it's not. Better off making ammunition with the strongest essences.

Greater stoneskin is now +4, so? You can cast it on others, which makes it infinitely more useful than before. I didn't mention anything about these spells, premonition still can't be cracked. All I'm saying is you should give the greater magical varnish +5 to give the craft at least something in it's arsenal. As it is now just a support craft for making ammo and enchanting, which is bugged out.

[/quote]

Don't forget the fact that alchemy is available to ANYONE. That means non casters gain access to a large portion of the caster library as is. I see no reason why it should be made better than the actual spells. It wasn't before the change and I doubt we'll change it to be in the future.
[/quote]

It's not available to everyone though, if you don't have the stats or time you can't pursue it. What do you mean you get a large portion of the caster library as an alchemist? You're thinking of herbalism. Which works two ways, cause casters get access to healing and other caster libraries not available to them. The reason to consider giving the +5 back is to balance the scales. Give the craft one sought after item. Nobody buys varnishes, I've spent days selling items and that's the one craft nobody buys anything from.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 18, 2015, 09:32:17 PM
Actually, I have two characters that have the funds to buy lots of varnish and would-if anyone would ever sell them  :lol:

I don't think that giving greater magic varnish would be balancing at all though. GMW was capped for a reason, so that things like premonition weren't just cut through like butter, making enemies go from difficult to a breeze as soon as you get access to +5 EB. The lesser forms of those spells, stoneskin and greater stoneskin, were reduced to +4/x so that there was still a use for hitting the GMW cap. I dunno, I think it's pretty nice really. And as an alchemist I'm not worried that my greater magical essence won't give +5 anymore, I'm worried about all these seemingly random and unanounced changes made to the recipes!
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: aprogressivist on November 18, 2015, 09:42:46 PM
Technically IIRC you can get Greater Acid varnishes, but the monsters who drop the appropriate reagent are only DM spawns, I believe.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 18, 2015, 09:54:26 PM
Technically IIRC you can get Greater Acid varnishes, but the monsters who drop the appropriate reagent are only DM spawns, I believe.

yes!
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: THE STREET WARRIOR on November 18, 2015, 10:03:08 PM
So, premonition shouldn't have a counter to it at all? You see it cast just split from the fight, yeah that makes sense, total balance there.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: FinalHeaven on November 18, 2015, 10:05:11 PM
So, premonition shouldn't have a counter to it at all? You see it cast just split from the fight, yeah that makes sense, total balance there.
This isn't a PVP heavy server.  Balance also doesn't inherently mean every single entity in the game has a hard counter.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Bad_Bud on November 18, 2015, 10:22:02 PM
I think this should be looked at again. Alchemy has all of it's usefulness siphoned out of it as of now. Every element can be cast on weapons now, except lightning and acid I think.

Lesser varnish: 1d4
Flame Weapon: 1d4
Darkfire: 1d6
Frost Weapon: 1d6
Sonic Weapon: 1d6
Strong varnish: 1d8
Greater varnish: 1d12

How is this useless? Also are you aware Stoneskin and Greater Stoneskin are now X/+4 damage reduction rather than X/+5?

There's 3 greater varnishes available, fire, ice and negative. Negative you will never get enough to have a good inventory of to make use. 80-85% of the server is immune to either fire or ice or both. Anybody worth their salt in pvp will have high immunity items to elemental damage.

I'm not taking your feedback seriously because your arguments are dramatic and do not make sense. Why would elemental varnishes become useless because of frost weapon, when by your own argument cold damage is useless? That would mean it doesn't matter where the damage comes from, because it's useless either way and thus alchemy is neither better nor worse than before.

And why would you run away because a mage that casts premonition? You knock the mage down. That's how people have always dealt with high damage soak.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 18, 2015, 10:29:08 PM
Sorry, but I feel personally that when I can cut through the most powerful damage soaking ward in the game like it's not even there just because I dump a liquid that you can actually make in pretty good abundance-that's the opposite of balance. Stoneskin and Greater Stoneskin weren't nerfed to +4/x arbitrarily, it was also done to balance things-they aren't thestrongest damage soaking wards and so should be able to be bypassed with the right, powerful, tools.

+4 EB is still very powerful, I don't see the big deal. There is like, 1 instance in which it can't bypass damage soak. And by the way, premonition -can- be bypassed still, just not nearly as easily as before.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Syl on November 19, 2015, 07:50:46 AM
Personally I never understood the mechanics behind premonition, but I wont get into that.

And to say people have a high immunity to some elements is rather off. the highest I have achived for damage " Resistance" is 15. and that is with a feat. and most things on this server will take fire damage.. and lightning.. Heh.. I haven't seen anything yet that doesn't take damage from a negative varnish.. LOL Hells even the undead take damage. ( which is kinda odd but [shrugs] ) and as Knas said.. alchemy IS available to ANYONE... unless your character is deathly frail... or Dumber then a ooze They can do alchemy. ( anything less then a 8 stat you cannot preform the craft.) Just because one " Doesn't have the time" Does not mean it is not available to them.. they can go out and buy the varnishes from other people.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 19, 2015, 09:37:25 AM
Syl, premonition works exactly like stoneskin and greater stoneskin (well, it's stronger than either now). Unless you have a +5 EB on your weapon the first 30 points of damage dealt per attack are absorbed, with a total of 10 points of damage per caster level being absorbed before the spell fades. So a level 20 mage that casts premonition will absorb the first 30 points of damage from every attack until they have absorbed 10 * 20 = 200 points of damage. If the person attacking them has a +5 EB on their weapon the spell is bypassed and absorbs nothing at all.

Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Syl on November 19, 2015, 09:48:48 AM
Syl, premonition works exactly like stoneskin and greater stoneskin (well, it's stronger than either now). Unless you have a +5 EB on your weapon the first 30 points of damage dealt per attack are absorbed, with a total of 10 points of damage per caster level being absorbed before the spell fades. So a level 20 mage that casts premonition will absorb the first 30 points of damage from every attack until they have absorbed 10 * 20 = 200 points of damage. If the person attacking them has a +5 EB on their weapon the spell is bypassed and absorbs nothing at all.

LOL not what I ment exactly I understand HOW it works.. I just used the wrong word for what I meant.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: LeviShultz on November 19, 2015, 10:01:23 AM
Actually, I have two characters that have the funds to buy lots of varnish and would-if anyone would ever sell them  :lol:

Don't forget the fact that alchemy is available to ANYONE. That means non casters gain access to a large portion of the caster library as is. I see no reason why it should be made better than the actual spells. It wasn't before the change and I doubt we'll change it to be in the future.

You never know which unassuming Port--Lucine resident might have obscene stockpiles of varnishes and literally can't even GIVE them away.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: THE STREET WARRIOR on November 19, 2015, 11:32:33 AM
I think this should be looked at again. Alchemy has all of it's usefulness siphoned out of it as of now. Every element can be cast on weapons now, except lightning and acid I think.

Lesser varnish: 1d4
Flame Weapon: 1d4
Darkfire: 1d6
Frost Weapon: 1d6
Sonic Weapon: 1d6
Strong varnish: 1d8
Greater varnish: 1d12

How is this useless? Also are you aware Stoneskin and Greater Stoneskin are now X/+4 damage reduction rather than X/+5?

There's 3 greater varnishes available, fire, ice and negative. Negative you will never get enough to have a good inventory of to make use. 80-85% of the server is immune to either fire or ice or both. Anybody worth their salt in pvp will have high immunity items to elemental damage.

I'm not taking your feedback seriously because your arguments are dramatic and do not make sense. Why would elemental varnishes become useless because of frost weapon, when by your own argument cold damage is useless? That would mean it doesn't matter where the damage comes from, because it's useless either way and thus alchemy is neither better nor worse than before.

And why would you run away because a mage that casts premonition? You knock the mage down. That's how people have always dealt with high damage soak.

You're totally right, my posts were sudden and striking or relating to the study or performance of drama, thanks for pointing it out. The thread is about greater magical varnish, not elemental varnishes. It's clearly not going to change, so there's no point in talking about it.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Mayvind on November 19, 2015, 03:14:54 PM
Just give me +5 and let everyone else +4 ... that should be alright.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: aprogressivist on November 19, 2015, 03:23:29 PM
Just give me +5 and let everyone else +4 ... that should be alright.

Play a Paladin then :|
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: aprogressivist on November 19, 2015, 03:26:44 PM
So, premonition shouldn't have a counter to it at all? You see it cast just split from the fight, yeah that makes sense, total balance there.

Premonition still has a lot of counters: they can still be dispelled; they will be stripped by Spell Breach, which, remember, can be used by Rogues via spell scrolls; natural attacks with creatures with +5 damage reduction will also ignore it; and finally there's still a +5 weapon buff available to Paladins.

Sure, not everyone can access these counters, but then I suspect that's somewhat the point.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Mayvind on November 20, 2015, 04:01:35 AM
Just give me +5 and let everyone else +4 ... that should be alright.

Play a Paladin then :|

You know I hate paladins bunch of arrogant self righteous do-gooder.
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 20, 2015, 04:13:32 AM
Ahem

http://nwnravenloft.wikia.com/wiki/Ravenloft:_Prisoners_of_the_Mist_Wikia (http://nwnravenloft.wikia.com/wiki/Ravenloft:_Prisoners_of_the_Mist_Wikia)
Title: Re: Greater Magic Varnish
Post by: Syl on November 20, 2015, 08:51:49 AM
So, premonition shouldn't have a counter to it at all? You see it cast just split from the fight, yeah that makes sense, total balance there.

Premonition still has a lot of counters: they can still be dispelled; they will be stripped by Spell Breach, which, remember, can be used by Rogues via spell scrolls; natural attacks with creatures with +5 damage reduction will also ignore it; and finally there's still a +5 weapon buff available to Paladins.

Sure, not everyone can access these counters, but then I suspect that's somewhat the point.

UMD MONKEYS!! totally the best things about rogues! also a rogue can be just as much a nightmare as a fighter to Wizards.. even if they have PRemenition.. their sneak damage if high enough can still damage them past it also you could actually counter the spell IF you know how AND have the spell. [ coughs] Feebleminded [coug cough]