Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Iluvatar on April 24, 2015, 08:06:55 AM

Title: Mueling
Post by: Iluvatar on April 24, 2015, 08:06:55 AM
We have spoken a lot about ninja looting in the last few days and now that it seem to have calm down I'd like to take this opportunity to talk about something else which is mueling,

Mueling IS illegal but for some reason I get the feeling that many people still do it. I might be wrong, I might be right, but the point I want to make is this,

When someone does mueling yes I agree It's nice to have super gear right off at the start though, it's not fair for the other player who works hard to find their and buy their gear legitimately.

Also mueling is killing the game in way, I don't know for you but when I play a game I need a goal, no goal no game. The goal here is RP so it's kind of hard to get rid of it though getting gear, dealing it is a goal in it's own

way. Dealing the gear with merchant generate RP which can give opportunity for more  RP later on.

Mueling also make everything easier, once I don't know for you but when I play a too easy game I usually don't play for a very long time since there is no challenge. Here again mueling is just killing the game, not for

everyone in the server but for the people mueling.


I'm not trying to start a debate here since mueling IS already illegal and will remain illegal, I just want to know your feeling on this, I have the feeling many people does it. I blame no one in particular, but in general I

somewhat get this odd feeling that many people are doing it.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: emptyanima on April 24, 2015, 08:12:22 AM
There is a script that fires whenever this takes place, and the DMs are notified. I am not sure if the message will persist until a DM sees to it however. I would need a DM to give the last word on that. :)
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Chronox on April 24, 2015, 08:28:04 AM

Also mueling is killing the game in way, I don't know for you but when I play a game I need a goal, no goal no game. The goal here is RP so it's kind of hard to get rid of it though getting gear, dealing it is a goal in it's own

I'm not trying to start a debate here since mueling IS already illegal and will remain illegal, I just want to know your feeling on this, I have the feeling many people does it. I blame no one in particular, but in general I

somewhat get this odd feeling that many people are doing it.

 99% of people won't/don't/can't muel, and I've never met anyone who did and didn't get caught. As well, starting a thread IS starting a debate, and I don't think anyone is going to have the contrary opinion to this. What you might be confusing for mueling is maybe people playing the same builds or characters as they did previously? It might also just be the fact that some people are just very good at getting gear, or are very well connected, both things you can't "punish".

Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Deceit on April 24, 2015, 08:33:43 AM
It might also just be the fact that some people are just very good at getting gear, or are very well connected, both things you can't "punish".

Or lucky! That one day a merchant decides to sell a +5 mighty bow for cheap in the outskirts, or you wander into an empty crypts with max loot left over; things just work out like that sometimes.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: emptyanima on April 24, 2015, 08:35:18 AM
It might also just be the fact that some people are just very good at getting gear, or are very well connected, both things you can't "punish".

Or lucky! That one day a merchant decides to sell a +5 mighty bow for cheap in the outskirts, or you wander into an empty crypts with max loot left over; things just work out like that sometimes.

Both of these are good points! :)
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: EO on April 24, 2015, 08:38:37 AM
If you guys see muling, simply screenshot it and report it to us.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Geiger on April 24, 2015, 08:40:35 AM
If you guys see muling, simply screenshot it and report it to us.

What this fine fellow has said. If you think you've witnessed muling or believe someone has/is muling feel free to confide that to us via PM or in game. We can investigate the situation.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: HellsPanda on April 24, 2015, 08:42:30 AM
And you can send it to the CC if you want to remain anonymous to our DM overlords. Just send in rulesbreaks and it will be investigated, if things are not sent inn, you can not blame us for not dealing with it. [this goes for all rules, bad behaviour]
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: --GlamRock-- on April 24, 2015, 08:43:48 AM
And yes, sorry if I sound a bit nasty here, if the verb is to mule, the -ing form will be muling since the final -e is not pronounced.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: TheGrinningHound on April 24, 2015, 09:00:13 AM
I think the culprit that you're after isn't muling, but twinking. That is, the act of higher leveled toons providing lower leveled characters with exceedingly powerful equipment.

But in all of my years, and across a number of servers, I have yet to find a good rule that properly protects against it while also appropriately considering IC gift-giving. Or that isn't ridiculous to enforce, or too demanding on the players that it breaks immersion.

Muling is patent rulebreaking, and thankfully has easy and available systems that alert and thwart it with even slightly diligent DM's. In the end, though, you have to choose your battles.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Miuo on April 24, 2015, 09:12:44 AM
If you guys see muling, simply screenshot it and report it to us.

As far as i understood it, it was impossible to do so? Once a character has a item it cant be shared/touched/transferred by any of their other chars, if they try to the item is instantaneously deleted and the staff is notified?

I don't really see gift giving as much of a issue either, its just a upside to having powerful friends or generous friends. The flip side to such is the people who are greedy and rob ya blind when you die and leave you corpsed. Its just one of the social aspects of the server, relationships with people bring about a multitude of outcomes. Some bad, some good.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: EO on April 24, 2015, 09:19:25 AM
Quote
I don't really see gift giving as much of a issue either, its just a upside to having powerful friends or generous friends. The flip side to such is the people who are greedy and rob ya blind when you die and leave you corpsed. Its just one of the social aspects of the server, relationships with people bring about a multitude of outcomes. Some bad, some good.

It's against the server rules to give out excessive gear based on OOC friendship. We've caught people doing that in the past and it resulted in punishments.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Feronius on April 24, 2015, 09:21:29 AM
I think the culprit that you're after isn't muling, but twinking. That is, the act of higher leveled toons providing lower leveled characters with exceedingly powerful equipment.

This. I think this thread is probably also more of a server & community discussion than a general feedback thread. Muling is already forbidden and there are systems in place against it.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Tycat on April 24, 2015, 09:28:17 AM
I think the culprit that you're after isn't muling, but twinking. That is, the act of higher leveled toons providing lower leveled characters with exceedingly powerful equipment.

But in all of my years, and across a number of servers, I have yet to find a good rule that properly protects against it while also appropriately considering IC gift-giving. Or that isn't ridiculous to enforce, or too demanding on the players that it breaks immersion.

Muling is patent rulebreaking, and thankfully has easy and available systems that alert and thwart it with even slightly diligent DM's. In the end, though, you have to choose your battles.

This is what it sounds like you are describing, Illuvater, not muling.

Muling isn't common, and the DM's are really quick about reacting to the notifications - even if you're just being rescued by someone's alt. For example, Pippin Bluckleberry rescued Zidonne once, and had to touch his sword and shield to get me and all my droppings to the cleric for a heallin'. Later down the line, Cael (who is involved with my character directly) also had to grab my body and my things and run off to get me raised. The script went off and the DM asked him about the gear even though it was an obvious rescue. So this shows that the DM's are ON TOP of it, and question even rescues to make sure there's no offenses being committed. This is just one example of me witnessing this (and I should probably stop dying), so I really don't think that muling is very commonly gotten away with.

Twinking on the other hand... (is it really called that?) is common. I try to avoid it, even though all my urges are for giving and helping, I know that it can spoil the game for people so I tend to personally, plan out gifts or affordable gear to particular characters by achievements and intervals. But hey, we can't all have that kind of restraint - not even me. : / I just like giving thing away!

If you guys see muling, simply screenshot it and report it to us.

As far as i understood it, it was impossible to do so? Once a character has a item it cant be shared/touched/transferred by any of their other chars, if they try to the item is instantaneously deleted and the staff is notified?
Staff is notified, the item isn't deleted.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Iluvatar on April 24, 2015, 09:44:21 AM
I think the culprit that you're after isn't muling, but twinking. That is, the act of higher leveled toons providing lower leveled characters with exceedingly powerful equipment.

But in all of my years, and across a number of servers, I have yet to find a good rule that properly protects against it while also appropriately considering IC gift-giving. Or that isn't ridiculous to enforce, or too demanding on the players that it breaks immersion.

Muling is patent rulebreaking, and thankfully has easy and available systems that alert and thwart it with even slightly diligent DM's. In the end, though, you have to choose your battles.

You're probably right here, "twinking" is likely to be what's happening.

Many point of view here and it's nice to look at this from different side. Thank you for sharing your thinking on this, I appreciate  :)
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Feronius on April 24, 2015, 09:55:06 AM
Twinking in MMOs is generally where you use your higher level character to gather gear and equip a low level character (usually one of your own) with the best items possible, giving them a distinct advantage over characters of the same approximate level. Usually to rack up serious scores in low level PvP brackets and stuff like that. I am not sure if it is the right term in this case, but it's close enough to what is most likely the real culprit here.

In this case twinking refers to occasions where players pass a lot of gold to another player's character or are in some other way being excessively charitable based more on the OoC relationship between the players than any sort of IC history shared between the characters. I think this form of 'Gold sharing' or 'Item gifting' is also against the server rules when it is done excessively without a clear roleplaying motive behind it, but unlike muling there is no easy way to keep track of this through an automated system.


Although it is also possible the players are simply farming bounties or doing a lot of delivery quests. And because there are so many PC merchants with rare items, getting geared up quickly is often not that difficult.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: ThePwush on April 24, 2015, 10:05:18 AM
As Feronius said, twinking is a lot harder to prove then muling itself, since twinking can fall back on the notion that "gifting" is what is happening.  Some solutions have been offered, and you could utilize one of them if you feel muling/twinking is happening.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Iluvatar on April 24, 2015, 10:15:44 AM
Yeah... twinking is really hard to prove, the only thing we rely on is honesty, if some people want to play and give gold to their friends new character so be it since we can't really do anything more about it.

Mueling, twinking is a risk to take and eventually those who do it will get caught one way or an other.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Arawn on April 24, 2015, 10:17:28 AM
Yeah... twinking is really hard to prove, the only thing we rely on is honesty, if some people want to play and give gold to their friends new character so be it since we can't really do anything more about it.

Mueling, twinking is a risk to take and eventually those who do it will get caught one way or an other.

It's not hard to prove at all. We can track the ownership history of any item.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Iluvatar on April 24, 2015, 10:25:11 AM
Yeah... twinking is really hard to prove, the only thing we rely on is honesty, if some people want to play and give gold to their friends new character so be it since we can't really do anything more about it.

Mueling, twinking is a risk to take and eventually those who do it will get caught one way or an other.

It's not hard to prove at all. We can track the ownership history of any item.

You can track ownership history sure but, proving that someone got an item through twiking is something much harder. If there is an easy way to prove the twinking it's self, I don't know it
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: NWN_lovableweremink on April 24, 2015, 10:26:55 AM
I've been debating on whether or not to add to this discussion because, from my experience, Twinking happens all the time on this server. Overall it isn't a huge deal because most items are let's face it, mundane. The best armor, still gets hit on a 20 roll, which for some reason PtoM creatures sure get a lot of. Extra spell slot item- well it still won't be enough when you really need it. The problem isn't twinking, the problem here, is that players make new characters, and play with the same people they played with their last toon. Sometimes, even jumping in on the same story plots that killed their last toon. I've seen it over and over, with just about every faction that exists. It's ingrained on this, and most other servers. Is it fair? No. Is life fair? No. get over it and accept it, and try and have a good time. Make some new friends, and try to be aware of it. That's all you can do. This is a game after all, not a frustration fest. Your toons story is going to be different that the next. Some people get a silver spoon, others have to scratch and claw their way up. Many never make it. That is as real as it gets.

I'm off to Ninja loot a Vistani dresser. Anyone need Vistani Pantaloons?
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Syl on April 24, 2015, 10:31:39 AM
Yeah... twinking is really hard to prove, the only thing we rely on is honesty, if some people want to play and give gold to their friends new character so be it since we can't really do anything more about it.

Mueling, twinking is a risk to take and eventually those who do it will get caught one way or an other.

It's not hard to prove at all. We can track the ownership history of any item.

I know crafters and merchants run the risk of mueling even though its not their intent, especially crafters playing on their alts, i know there are a few weapons and sets of armor none of my other toons can touch that my fighter made because of such thing. (!!!! I just got an idea To the wish list!!!)
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Arawn on April 24, 2015, 10:32:37 AM
We tend to take that sort of thing into consideration if we see an alert for a violation, but better safe than sorry.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Miuo on April 24, 2015, 10:51:46 AM
Quote
I don't really see gift giving as much of a issue either, its just a upside to having powerful friends or generous friends. The flip side to such is the people who are greedy and rob ya blind when you die and leave you corpsed. Its just one of the social aspects of the server, relationships with people bring about a multitude of outcomes. Some bad, some good.

It's against the server rules to give out excessive gear based on OOC friendship. We've caught people doing that in the past and it resulted in punishments.

How do you determine if it is excessive though?

No one was buying any of the scrolls i had been saving over a few months so i just gave them all (two bags or so of varying stacks, and spell level) to a new sorc char i began traveling with (who i know oocly), since it also benefited me for them to use such as well. In my case, i couldn't use such, the items weren't selling and weren't worth all that much at the vistani. So i gave them to someone who can make use of such when traveling with me. Isn't the first time iv done such or even with people i dont know oocly, if i cant unload gear and its weight/size becomes a issue i will tend to just give it away. First to those i know icly, and then to strangers who reply first. Usually consumables, as most other items have a decent enough market. Among hoards of scrolls, i tend to collect bolts, bullets and some other things and just give them to people who can actually use them since the alternative is sell them for next to nothing and let the server eat them most the time.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: A normal snake on April 24, 2015, 11:48:59 AM
Muling isn't common, and the DM's are really quick about reacting to the notifications - even if you're just being rescued by someone's alt. For example, Pippin Bluckleberry rescued Zidonne once, and had to touch his sword and shield to get me and all my droppings to the cleric for a heallin'. Later down the line, Cael (who is involved with my character directly) also had to grab my body and my things and run off to get me raised. The script went off and the DM asked him about the gear even though it was an obvious rescue. So this shows that the DM's are ON TOP of it, and question even rescues to make sure there's no offenses being committed. This is just one example of me witnessing this (and I should probably stop dying), so I really don't think that muling is very commonly gotten away with.

Actually, the muling script going off is frustratingly common, and 90% of it is due to the situation you described or due to people twinking, and isn't actually a muling rulebreak. I'm looking at all of you dungeongers who have a main character that gives someone's alt an item, and then you go dungeon with them on your alt, and then pick up the item again when that person dies. Each time this happens I need to stop what I'm doing and go and look at it and make sure it's actually a rulebreak.

As for twinking, that in itself isn't against the rules. High levels taking low levels dungeoning in their massive dungeoning parties isn't against the rules. Low levels can get kitted out through IC means by going along with these dungeon groups. It might be an issue and something worth discussing though.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: EO on April 24, 2015, 11:50:12 AM
How do you determine if it is excessive though?

Was the reason why you gave these items to help someone OOCly since they're a friend? If so, it's because of an OOC reason. Would that character have any chance in getting these scrolls if they weren't given? If not, it's likely excessive. There's a difference between helping out a low level and equipping a low level because they're your friend.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: dark_majico on April 24, 2015, 12:57:30 PM
How do you determine if it is excessive though?

Was the reason why you gave these items to help someone OOCly since they're a friend? If so, it's because of an OOC reason. Would that character have any chance in getting these scrolls if they weren't given? If not, it's likely excessive. There's a difference between helping out a low level and equipping a low level because they're your friend.

Twinking is against the rules and like it's been said it's when people give items to players for OOC reasons that are way out of proportion to the players level and ability to get. I don't think this is all that difficult to prove. Lets not over use the term twinking though, ive been given items from characters my character's barely know, and OOC I'm not even sur eI know the player, mostly ive turned it down, but none of the items were really powerful or anything really speacial to write home about, I don't think it's fair to call that twinking, players here are just generous and maybe they just see it as a way of starting legit roleplay or creating a bond between characters so more roleplay can happen? Just a thought.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Tycat on April 24, 2015, 01:02:23 PM
Muling isn't common, and the DM's are really quick about reacting to the notifications - even if you're just being rescued by someone's alt. For example, Pippin Bluckleberry rescued Zidonne once, and had to touch his sword and shield to get me and all my droppings to the cleric for a heallin'. Later down the line, Cael (who is involved with my character directly) also had to grab my body and my things and run off to get me raised. The script went off and the DM asked him about the gear even though it was an obvious rescue. So this shows that the DM's are ON TOP of it, and question even rescues to make sure there's no offenses being committed. This is just one example of me witnessing this (and I should probably stop dying), so I really don't think that muling is very commonly gotten away with.

Actually, the muling script going off is frustratingly common, and 90% of it is due to the situation you described or due to people twinking, and isn't actually a muling rulebreak. I'm looking at all of you dungeongers who have a main character that gives someone's alt an item, and then you go dungeon with them on your alt, and then pick up the item again when that person dies. Each time this happens I need to stop what I'm doing and go and look at it and make sure it's actually a rulebreak.

As for twinking, that in itself isn't against the rules. High levels taking low levels dungeoning in their massive dungeoning parties isn't against the rules. Low levels can get kitted out through IC means by going along with these dungeon groups. It might be an issue and something worth discussing though.

Oh, sorry, I meant it's not commonly done maliciously or with the intent to mule.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Exordium on April 24, 2015, 01:27:02 PM
Certainly there are impossible-to-prove -cases of powerful gear being passed on with OOC motivations, but compared to legitimate transactions, these cases represent a tiny fraction. I'd like to think that it isn't really that harmful either that a few players get kickstarts for their new characters via illicit trades, since this barely leaks to anyone else around. It's likely that these players stick to their cliques and don't affect your (this "you" being whoever! :P) play in any manner.

So, sure, sometimes cheats pass between DM fingers, but it's rare and hardly affects anyone negatively.

Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: A normal snake on April 24, 2015, 01:36:49 PM
Twinking is against the rules and like it's been said it's when people give items to players for OOC reasons that are way out of proportion to the players level and ability to get. I don't think this is all that difficult to prove. Lets not over use the term twinking though, ive been given items from characters my character's barely know, and OOC I'm not even sur eI know the player, mostly ive turned it down, but none of the items were really powerful or anything really speacial to write home about, I don't think it's fair to call that twinking, players here are just generous and maybe they just see it as a way of starting legit roleplay or creating a bond between characters so more roleplay can happen? Just a thought.

Twinking is a broad term that doesn't necessarily mean OOC item trade. If it's high levels kiting around low levels, that doesn't go against server rules. I'm not inherently against high levels taking low levels around either, I've done it before to RP teaching apprentice rogues and mages how to do things in real situations. It's a pretty muddy area, but is worth discussing.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Destinysdesire on April 24, 2015, 01:47:39 PM
I just want to point out since Miuo made the post regarding my Sorceress, Miuo provided her scrolls that she wasnt using as Miuo has basically taken her on as a Student, also the fact this char was made to " Dms can ask me about this personally since no spoilers " so yes, it wasn't based on OOC matters, it was IC.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Tycat on April 24, 2015, 02:03:15 PM
Here's the rule on it, for those who might be wondering where this is listed: (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=2863.msg34636#msg34636)
Quote
- Don't hand out items/gold based on OOC things. Don't give out items because of OOC based friendships. Don't give away items because you are abandoning your character.

Some instances where this was brought up was when someone was planning on closing their character, and asked for time before the death match to enchant their xp away into items to give friends. This person was denied by a couple of enchanters, and then when I was approached, I was told it was considered a violation of this rule.
 
Can you leave items to people in a will?
Can you sell all your items if you are abandoning your character?

Very clearly however, it states not to give gold and items out to friends based on OOC reasons. If a group of people who normally hang out make new characters and give each other high end items on their mains, while it's not muling it most certainly is a violation. And while it's not easy to track, it certainly it suspicious behavior (Hmmm how did a level 2 get an Eye of Ra?). And while it may not effect everyone else, it can if this person/group uses it as a distinct advantage over another person/group. if it is done for OOC reasons, there's also a chance it could spoil legitimate rp. Imagine if your apprentice has everything they need already before you had planned on rewarding their progress, because someone else gave them everything without much/any RP reason behind it. it might create more work for you, and dull the rp of apprenticeship.

I am all for helping out the lower levels especially if you have plenty. But having plenty gives you cause to create plenty of RP reasons for giving, doncha know.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Olywynn on April 24, 2015, 02:13:12 PM
If you end up banning the giving of items entirely, you're going to make the game miserable.  Yes, you shouldn't hand gear out for OOC reasoning, but if you're going to ban gift giving for IC reasons, nobody will be happy except the people who had never received a gift in the first place.

I like giving things to lower levels when I feel they deserve it IC, not because they're OOC friends, personally.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: EO on April 24, 2015, 02:13:57 PM
Quote
Some instances where this was brought up was when someone was planning on closing their character, and asked for time before the death match to enchant their xp away into items to give friends. This person was denied by a couple of enchanters, and then when I was approached, I was told it was considered a violation of this rule.

Wow, that's bad on so many levels. That clearly would fall under the no giving rule. There's a lot of metagaming and OOCness in that.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: FinalHeaven on April 24, 2015, 02:16:49 PM
I think it's also important to keep in mind that gold is very easy to get on this server, the most common method being through selling bags of herbs or alchemy reagents.  Not every low level has acquired their selection of high level items through twinking but through actual legitimate transactions.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: dark_majico on April 24, 2015, 03:35:32 PM
Twinking is against the rules and like it's been said it's when people give items to players for OOC reasons that are way out of proportion to the players level and ability to get. I don't think this is all that difficult to prove. Lets not over use the term twinking though, ive been given items from characters my character's barely know, and OOC I'm not even sur eI know the player, mostly ive turned it down, but none of the items were really powerful or anything really speacial to write home about, I don't think it's fair to call that twinking, players here are just generous and maybe they just see it as a way of starting legit roleplay or creating a bond between characters so more roleplay can happen? Just a thought.

Twinking is a broad term that doesn't necessarily mean OOC item trade. If it's high levels kiting around low levels, that doesn't go against server rules. I'm not inherently against high levels taking low levels around either, I've done it before to RP teaching apprentice rogues and mages how to do things in real situations. It's a pretty muddy area, but is worth discussing.

Not sure I agree on that, I don't think its a broad term at all. If something is done for IC for legit reasons then there isn't a name for that, we are just playing and sticking IC. If it's called "twinking", then it has OOC baggage and that is going to make it uncooool.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: Feronius on April 24, 2015, 04:33:58 PM
With excessive in terms of 'twinking', I meant stuff like high level characters regularly passing along thousands of gold or entire sets of items to new characters.

It's probably fine if you give a new character some traveling money, front them the gold to bring back a fallen comrade or pass along an item or consumeable you have no use for anymore.
But if you end up fully outfitting new characters and giving them a couple of thousand gold of spending money, without a truly valid RP reason, that would be a good example of excessive.


Giving away items or gold on a character because you intend to closure is definitely against the rules, in most cases this will be considered metagaming as well as muling or twinking.
The only exception I can think of is perhaps a family heirloom being passed on after a character's death, but this would likely involve an item without notable stats, just roleplay value.
Title: Re: Mueling
Post by: A normal snake on April 24, 2015, 07:38:25 PM
Twinking could also refer to the dungeon parties which will take absolutely anyone on a dungeon run, regardless of level, if you go and hang out at the mist camp. There are low levels who get geared out this way, and it's not necessarily against the rules since it's not based on OOC friendship necessarily, just people knowing go to the mist camp. That's why I'm specifying OOC item trade vs twinking.