Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Zarathustra217 on January 05, 2015, 03:21:28 PM

Title: Level progression
Post by: Zarathustra217 on January 05, 2015, 03:21:28 PM
This came up in another topic (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=39099.msg491033#msg491033), so to get an idea of what the general opinion is on this, I went ahead and made this poll. It's not meant to be a poll that will decide anything, but first of all to get an idea on how people stand on this.

The various revisions could appear as roughly following for approximate time to reach a level at normal to high activity:

Revision type__________________Level 6 ______ Level 11 _____ Level 16 _____ Level 20
Current1 week2 months9 months18 months
Slower for mainly low levels1 month5 months11 months20 months
Slower for mainly high levels1 week3 months13 months26 months
Slower for all1 month5 months18 months32 months

Comments are welcome!
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: A normal snake on January 05, 2015, 03:25:48 PM
I voted for making it harder for high levels. I think there's some balance issues regarding how much XP is handed out in Har'Akir.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Tycat on January 05, 2015, 03:26:50 PM
For me I already level "slower for all", and have no idea how to speed things up. I don't understand how anyone can reach the levels they do in the time frames that they do it. I just don't.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FinalHeaven on January 05, 2015, 03:31:05 PM
I don't really consider 10 high level so that's why I'm avoiding the "make it slower for high levels" option that I would likely normally choose.  I would not want to see things get slower around 10.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Zarathustra217 on January 05, 2015, 03:31:14 PM
Personally, I think I'm myself (not speaking on behalf of the team here) mostly leaning toward "Slower for mainly low levels", because getting level 6 in just one to two weeks makes you hardly experience those levels. And that you can be level 11 in two to three months means you very quickly go into the high level category.

 :twocents:
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Super Sugar on January 05, 2015, 03:31:32 PM
I voted for making it harder for high levels. I think there's some balance issues regarding how much XP is handed out in Har'Akir.

Should Har'Akir be fixed then, instead of just making everything else harder?
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Zarathustra217 on January 05, 2015, 03:33:26 PM
I don't really consider 10 high level so that's why I'm avoiding the "make it slower for high levels" option that I would likely normally choose.  I would not want to see things get slower around 10.

If you notice the diagram, the option "make it slower for high levels" only has a significantly impact on level 16 to 20.

I voted for making it harder for high levels. I think there's some balance issues regarding how much XP is handed out in Har'Akir.

Should Har'Akir be fixed then, instead of just making everything else harder?

Yeah, that would make the most sense.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on January 05, 2015, 03:37:22 PM
I really feel the sweet spot on PotM is levels 4 to about 9. That is where the most interesting stuff happens, assuming you manage to get attention and get involved in groups and plots. You're strong enough that you're not going to get wrecked by spawns, you're weak enough that anything thrown at you is a challenge, and your character is developed enough that they're not going to be terrified of everything that moves but they'll still have a healthy respect for the potentially scary things out there.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: IDreamofDaleks on January 05, 2015, 03:41:30 PM
I voted slower accross the board. I don't know if I level faster or slower than normally, and really only have Rue to go by. I don't -think- I dungeoned as much as some people, but I know I saw far more DM attention on that PC and generally have a -lot- of free time to play.

While :
                   6               11            16               20
Current   1 week   2 months    9 months    18 months

May be the average, for me it only took about 7 months to get to 17 (Well, trivial to 17 but I stopped dungeoning for pretty much the entirety of her final month, had I have done trolls one more time, she would've been 17) . I've seen people hit level 20 rather quickly, and get from 16-20 in next to no time at all (I've seen the opposite too). With enchanting generally seen as a less desirable option now, I fear leveling will be all the quicker, since a lot of people dropped whole -levels- into enchanting (I did not) and still managed to get rather high rather quickly.  I know characters made roughly right before or right after I made Rue that are 19-20 now.

That said, Har'Akir gives ridiculous amounts of XP. I have issue with Har'Akir even being a thing on this server (I'm a stickler for sticking with Core realms, esp the ones bordering Barovia directly...imagining not needing the Mist Camp really at all :O!) but that's another topic entirely.

If anything, leveling from 10+ needs to slow down a lot a lot. But I think slower across the board would be great....And then I want a delevel for my character so I can enjoy it!

Other things I'm fine with:

Introducing a hard cap rather than a slow cap on leveling, to bring XP grinding to a complete halt.
Introducing a -hard- hard cap so that you physically cannot level after level 15 without a DM Approved application that shows your character has made a significant enough impact to -deserve- ascending to those levels, perhaps requiring a quest of high risk to do so.

Lowering the magic level of items and spells and consumables significantly so that balance is recreated.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FinalHeaven on January 05, 2015, 03:41:41 PM


If you notice the diagram, the option "make it slower for high levels" only has a significantly impact on level 16 to 20.

Well, it certainly has the most significant impact, yes.  But I don't agree with a 10 month span to get from level 11 to 16 either.

Overall I just don't think that progression is an issue.  Some people are always going to progress faster than others, it's the nature of the game.  I just don't see why this should effect other people's gameplay except in very specific circumstances that can be addressed at the time of them happening.  
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FlyingLotus on January 05, 2015, 03:55:10 PM

If anything, leveling from 10+ needs to slow down a lot a lot. But I think slower across the board would be great....And then I want a delevel for my character so I can enjoy it!

Introducing a hard cap rather than a slow cap on leveling, to bring XP grinding to a complete halt.
Introducing a -hard- hard cap so that you physically cannot level after level 15 without a DM Approved application that shows your character has made a significant enough impact to -deserve- ascending to those levels, perhaps requiring a quest of high risk to do so.


I'd echo FinalHeaven's sentiment here-I don't see why other peoples progression should affect you at all, much less enough for you to want to change it so much.

I alternatively would like to propose the option to turn off all xp gain on -your own- character. This would allow anyone who personally wanted to slow down and take more time at the point they were at to do so without changing things for other people who might not want the same. It would I think create a middle ground that could (I think anyway) be fairly easily implemented among the options on the rest menu.

Also, yes-Rue leveled incredibly fast. Far faster than Dante who also leveled incredibly fast. It's what happens with people who have too much time on their hands and spend it doing this *shrugs*
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: A normal snake on January 05, 2015, 04:01:44 PM
I think the issue with low levels reaching high levels quickly is because dungeon grind crews cart low levels around through high level areas. I don't want to change low levels being allowed into high level areas, it can be good for master/apprentice RP, but it does skew how fast low levels gain XP. Xp gain slowdown only maxes out at 50%, and even with low level XP gain being cut in high level zones, it still increases the number of dungeons low levels have access to (and therefore, the amount of XP low levels are capable of getting from dungeons). Instead of just having terg, orphanage, etc etc, they now also have perf, HA, Sithicus (YES, I have seen low levels carted through Sithicus!). The script for the amount of xp low levels get in high level dungeons could be adjusted, as well as the xp reduction being increased to 75%

Overall though, I'm noticing people reaching max level extremely fast. I think the higher level zones could use some balancing in that regard. I know Har'Akir is notorious for being an XP piņata, but Hazlan has been ground steadily since it was buffed up too.

Upon consideration, I'm switching my vote to slower for everyone. I'd like to see 1-5 go relatively fast because those levels are not fun because you don't really have any fun skills yet that define the class you're playing, but after 5 I could see a slowdown being viable.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FinalHeaven on January 05, 2015, 04:08:30 PM
The ability to turn off XP for your own character is a great compromise.  If you don't want to level fast that's your choice, but I still don't agree that everyone should have to conform.  This was an option on a server I played on a few years ago and it worked quite well.

The problem with having a hard cap at 15 and then having to do a bunch of things to progress beyond that is pretty obvious to me in that some people can't get any attention from a DM on a regular day.  This would just add another level on top of this, where more people are going to start to feel excluded or that the staff "never have time" for them.  That, and I'm not sure how this would work for every character that is already level 20.  Docking their levels is unfair, but so is expecting everyone else to have to go through a likely convoluted process, imo.

Honestly the one thing everyone seems to be agreeing on is that the high level areas need to be looked at.  I personally agree with this and would not mind seeing more of an actual challenge implemented to perhaps slow down the rate with with a high level character can gain xp.  I'm still voting for keeping it the same, though, simply because I'm not confident that I agree with any of the examples listed.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DM Nocturne on January 05, 2015, 04:15:26 PM
I'd like to see a hard cap at level 16 that prevents xp earned through killing creatures. Your options to level would then be roleplaying or DM xp.

Alternatively drop it by 75% so that high level dungeons still have some benefit.

I'd then be fine with the rates as is.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on January 05, 2015, 04:16:31 PM
I'd like to see a hard cap at level 16 that prevents xp earned through killing creatures. Your options to level would then be roleplaying or DM xp.

This would be awesome but then you run into the difficulties of some people never getting DM attention, accusations of favoritism start to pop up, etc.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FinalHeaven on January 05, 2015, 04:17:58 PM
I'd like to see a hard cap at level 16 that prevents xp earned through killing creatures. Your options to level would then be roleplaying or DM xp.

This would be awesome but then you run into the difficulties of some people never getting DM attention, accusations of favoritism start to pop up, etc.
Exactly.

Though you've also just eliminated a core part of the game for some people as well.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Syl on January 05, 2015, 04:18:15 PM
I have to ask since i don't recall seeing anything about it and i was asked before but... Once you hear that magical chime of you achiving your level.... So you have to take it or can you hold it till you feel your ready or does that mess with the system?

AS for the serious note. Unless you grind and I mean GRINDING out dungens... WHich i have done on really only one toon. yes it is easy to level quick. however you can level just as quick with a balance of RP and dungens. I believe Monica hit level 15 in.. just under a year of making her? and thats with a 4 month of not using her. Now this being said, when i did play her and she had those moments where she just Rped... and RPed...and RPed....AND Rped.... not hitting a single dungen she eventually slipped back into that exp boost time like three of four times so when she did go in a dungen finally she gaind exp quick.

So maybe could remove the exp boost for the higher levels and could make it so once they hit that wall EXP is recuded more then just 50%.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: IDreamofDaleks on January 05, 2015, 04:18:36 PM
I'd like to see a hard cap at level 16 that prevents xp earned through killing creatures. Your options to level would then be roleplaying or DM xp.

Alternatively drop it by 75% so that high level dungeons still have some benefit.

I'd then be fine with the rates as is.

This, and also what Ophis said about still seeing levels 3 4 and 5 go at current speeds. Those levels are awful and if you have 4HD for HP per level..Kill yourself.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Ehver on January 05, 2015, 04:21:24 PM
I leveled extremely slow on Laine. I'm not suggesting that everybody should level as slow or fast as I do, but I did vote for slowing everything down for everyone. Mostly because I hate high magic on any server, and slowing things down might at least take off some of the edge.

I would also be totally up for the higher levels being required to get their xp from either RP or DMs, but then there would need to be a system put in place where DMs would be required to "cycle through" characters to make sure that everyone got attention (which wouldn't be that horrible in my opinion).

Or even BETTER! A certain percentage of EVERY level must be gotten either through RP-xp or DM-xp. Anywhere from 5% to 25% (or scaling depending on your level).

Edit: What is up with my grammar today...?
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: HellsPanda on January 05, 2015, 04:22:52 PM
Making it slower will not accomplish anything except maybe loosing some of our playerbase. Do not allow the ones who powerlevel to dictate the fun of the ones who enjoy the game as it is.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DM Cataclysm on January 05, 2015, 04:24:54 PM
McNastea and Ophis both have some good ideas here. For those people who want to stay at level 6 indefinitely - perhaps giving them the option to do so is the best choice. I'd also agree - low levels in Sithicus?!?! Maybe it would be good to put a harder penalty in place if there is more than 8 levels between the highest and lowest character in the group or something of the sort?

I would really question slowing things down too much. Out of curiosity - how are these time frames calculated? Are we talking a player who has one character and plays multiple times/week? It seems like this would make things highly tedious for players with multiple characters or casual players. Taking over a year to get from 11 - 16 is a little extreme in my opinion and I imagine if you've got several characters or don't have 30+ hours a week to play, this would be even more extreme.

IMO, when we slow things down to the point where there is very very limited progression, a good chunk of people will lose interest. Out of curiosity - is there any information available as to the average 'lifespan' of active players on the server?

Also..... Thank you HellsPanda! : ) My thoughts exactly.

Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Dread on January 05, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
Making it slower for high levels is fine, but things are already plenty slow as it is. When I was a player, it took me several months to get a character to level 15, and by that time, the character's story is mostly over and I'm looking to retire them if they're not already dead.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Zarathustra217 on January 05, 2015, 04:26:26 PM
Making it slower will not accomplish anything except maybe loosing some of our playerbase. Do not allow the ones who powerlevel to dictate the fun of the ones who enjoy the game as it is.

I don't think it's relevant to discuss powerlevelling here, as it hardly matters with the cap. The numbers in the first post shouldn't differ that much from the experience of the casual player.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: IDreamofDaleks on January 05, 2015, 04:29:40 PM
I also want to vye sliightly off topic here. While I said before that I do agree with slower  , or even reduced level progression as Nocturne has stated, the other side of that is that DM activity would need to see a boost. Servers that I have seen with a generally longer period of time between levels, and that are aimed 'low magic' /slow progression generally have a very high rate of DM activity and interaction across the board. Conversely, it has never, in my 9 years of NWN experience failed that when one of these slow progressing servers lost DM activity for long periods of time, the server began to wither and die. I've seen more than a few servers that I would have considered perfect for their balance, and level progression die because there weren't any or enough DMs around consistently enough to support the laid out progression.

We can't let that happen here if we were going to change our style of progression :)
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Dread on January 05, 2015, 04:30:11 PM
Making it slower will not accomplish anything except maybe loosing some of our playerbase. Do not allow the ones who powerlevel to dictate the fun of the ones who enjoy the game as it is.

I don't think it's relevant to discuss powerlevelling here, as it hardly matters with the cap. The numbers in the first post shouldn't differ that much from the experience of the casual player.

People still powerlevel, Soren, they just make alts and level those while their other character has hit the cap. I'm not saying our systems don't mitigate powergaming and the effect it has on the rest of the server, but it still happens.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Zarathustra217 on January 05, 2015, 04:32:25 PM
Making it slower will not accomplish anything except maybe loosing some of our playerbase. Do not allow the ones who powerlevel to dictate the fun of the ones who enjoy the game as it is.

I don't think it's relevant to discuss powerlevelling here, as it hardly matters with the cap. The numbers in the first post shouldn't differ that much from the experience of the casual player.

People still powerlevel, Soren, they just make alts and level those while their other character has hit the cap. I'm not saying it doesn't mitigate powergaming a bit, but it still happens.

Oh yeah, people powerlevel in that way, but it's just not relevant to the topic. The aim is not to target powerlevellers in particular.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: emptyanima on January 05, 2015, 04:33:08 PM
Making it slower will not accomplish anything except maybe loosing some of our playerbase. Do not allow the ones who powerlevel to dictate the fun of the ones who enjoy the game as it is.

I feel inclined to agree with this, myself. I'm not sure where all these 'remove and lower all the things' threads are coming from today. I don't have any 'high' level characters (my highest is 13, so she probably almost counts as high level), and I don't have a problem with high levels as an idea.

I echo several others when I say it's attitude, not level, that is important. I admit I can get a little negligent when I play Aveyna sometimes, perhaps take a route during the night because I am tired and it saves time, and there are other things she needs to get done, but there is less her level and more my need to manage my time that's affected the RP. I do try to minimise that.

I don't think it's a change to the levelling process that's needed, but just people reinforcing what they like to see more. I certainly think there are characters who have outlived their stories, but again, more to do with the character's attitude and situation and less about level. Not that I'd want to force perma on anyone, that would also be a bad route.

Apologies if I am not making much sense, my brain is slightly frazzled.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FinalHeaven on January 05, 2015, 04:33:57 PM
I made Tarathiel in September and he is on the very edge of getting to level 14 now.  I leveled him much faster than my first character, but I would attribute this to understanding how the server worked better than I did when I made my first character.  The rate at which I played changed very little.  I noticed that around level 10 things very much slowed down in terms with which I gained xp and went to dungeons.  Around level 10 was when I first managed to get the first Blind Drive on him.  Though at the same time, it was around level 10/12 that he also made friends with some much more powerful people, and thus was able to go places who wouldn't normally go with a group his level.

Everyone is going to have a different story.  It doesn't really matter what the progression is like as there are too many factors that aren't built into the game itself that effect it and that's one of the reasons I'm against the change at all.  You should theoretically be able to play the game just fine the way you want, if you want to go slow.  Other people shouldn't have an effect on that.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: HellsPanda on January 05, 2015, 04:34:30 PM
But Casuals don't have the issue? They aren't rushing up in levels. Unless you think 6 levels in 2-3 weeks is to fast?
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: emptyanima on January 05, 2015, 04:37:22 PM
But Casuals don't have the issue? They aren't rushing up in levels. Unless you think 6 levels in 2-3 weeks is to fast?

I will say this - I have always levelled faster during NCEs than at any other time. I think it's just an effect of the increased activity in lower-level areas. Leta-Basha just hit 7 before the end. Was the same with Gwenn the time before. Outside these events, unless you have a consistent party, I doubt you could do it that quick :P
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Dread on January 05, 2015, 04:38:29 PM
I should also mention that making level progression slower will have the effect of making players will hold onto their characters for longer (and won't seek out the end to their character's story) and it will discourage them from making new characters. Things need to be made easier for new characters, not harder. We already have a pretty steep learning curve as is.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: emptyanima on January 05, 2015, 04:39:53 PM
I should also mention that making level progression slower will have the effect of making players will hold onto their characters for longer (and won't seek out the end to their character's story) and it will discourage them from making new characters. Things need to be made easier for new characters, not harder. We already have a pretty steep learning curve as is.

Also agree with this! First five levels are tough.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: A normal snake on January 05, 2015, 04:40:54 PM
Making it slower will not accomplish anything except maybe loosing some of our playerbase. Do not allow the ones who powerlevel to dictate the fun of the ones who enjoy the game as it is.

I don't think it's relevant to discuss powerlevelling here, as it hardly matters with the cap. The numbers in the first post shouldn't differ that much from the experience of the casual player.

People still powerlevel, Soren, they just make alts and level those while their other character has hit the cap. I'm not saying it doesn't mitigate powergaming a bit, but it still happens.

Oh yeah, people powerlevel in that way, but it's just not relevant to the topic. The aim is not to target powerlevellers in particular.

I think powerleveling is a large part of the problem, though. It's very easy to go to the msit camp and tag along in a power leveling session. I was playerside somewhat recently and had a scene cut short because the people I was RPing with wanted to go tag along a Perfidus run rather than RP, the people were all around level 6 at the time. And I see this fairly regularly when I'm DMing, people tagging along endgame dungeon runs because it's easy XP. If powerleveling effected only those who did it, it wouldn't be an issue. BUT, as things are, it's leeching out and effecting other aspects of the server.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Apsalar on January 05, 2015, 04:41:33 PM
I'm definitely against slowing down low level xp gain. I feel that low levels should always be pretty easy to obtain, and if it's made harder all it will be doing is punishing casual players who already have difficulty obtaining levels. It would also likely increase the reluctance to closure higher level characters as the difficulty in starting new characters would seem excrutiating.

Overall I think our current rates are fine.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FinalHeaven on January 05, 2015, 04:42:46 PM
I definitely leveled Elias faster from 1 - 6 than either Marcus or Tarathiel, during NCE.  I know exactly what it was, too.  It was going into the crypts under the ML temple and soaking up XP with 20+ people.

Which I would rather die at the paws of a thousand clawing kittens then subject myself to again so that won't be a problem.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: emptyanima on January 05, 2015, 04:44:09 PM
I am also going to mention that this would make playing characters with ECL extra hard, harder than intended.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Zarathustra217 on January 05, 2015, 04:48:07 PM
But Casuals don't have the issue? They aren't rushing up in levels. Unless you think 6 levels in 2-3 weeks is to fast?

Well, that's my personal opinion, yeah. Not to make it "harder" but just to make the low levels last longer - because they are interesting.

I think powerleveling is a large part of the problem, though. It's very easy to go to the msit camp and tag along in a power leveling session. I was playerside somewhat recently and had a scene cut short because the people I was RPing with wanted to go tag along a Perfidus run rather than RP, the people were all around level 6 at the time. And I see this fairly regularly when I'm DMing, people tagging along endgame dungeon runs because it's easy XP. If powerleveling effected only those who did it, it wouldn't be an issue. BUT, as things are, it's leeching out and effecting other aspects of the server.

When I say powerlevelling isn't relevant, it's because this isn't intended as a change to stop those that tire themselves reaching high level (which they qua the soft cap can't do that much faster than the average player, anyway). The change wouldn't affect them any more or less than other people anyway.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Bad_Bud on January 05, 2015, 04:49:21 PM
I like that it's pretty easy to reach level 10. Once you're level 10 you can generally contribute something positive to almost any party you join. Slowing the progression at lower levels would tend to segregate lower players longer from engaging with higher level characters.

The low levels are the bullied levels too, and I like that you can't bully someone for too long, because they'll soon be formidable enough to cause you to question your actions.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: IDreamofDaleks on January 05, 2015, 04:49:33 PM
Making it slower will not accomplish anything except maybe loosing some of our playerbase. Do not allow the ones who powerlevel to dictate the fun of the ones who enjoy the game as it is.

I don't think it's relevant to discuss powerlevelling here, as it hardly matters with the cap. The numbers in the first post shouldn't differ that much from the experience of the casual player.

People still powerlevel, Soren, they just make alts and level those while their other character has hit the cap. I'm not saying it doesn't mitigate powergaming a bit, but it still happens.

Oh yeah, people powerlevel in that way, but it's just not relevant to the topic. The aim is not to target powerlevellers in particular.

I think powerleveling is a large part of the problem, though. It's very easy to go to the msit camp and tag along in a power leveling session. I was playerside somewhat recently and had a scene cut short because the people I was RPing with wanted to go tag along a Perfidus run rather than RP, the people were all around level 6 at the time. And I see this fairly regularly when I'm DMing, people tagging along endgame dungeon runs because it's easy XP. If powerleveling effected only those who did it, it wouldn't be an issue. BUT, as things are, it's leeching out and effecting other aspects of the server.


So here's the thing then. These domains are usually Dungeon domains. Har'Akir, Perfidus, Sithicus, Hazlan. I rarely if ever see people go there to RP. Har'Akir and Hazlan maybe....Back on track. When you pick these domains it's my understanding that the actual transition into the Caravan changes.
Add line in however you do nwn script: {if level <x bar entry}

Done....?
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: puckwolf on January 05, 2015, 04:53:49 PM
I should also mention that making level progression slower will have the effect of making players will hold onto their characters for longer (and won't seek out the end to their character's story) and it will discourage them from making new characters. Things need to be made easier for new characters, not harder. We already have a pretty steep learning curve as is.

I'm definitely against slowing down low level xp gain. I feel that low levels should always be pretty easy to obtain, and if it's made harder all it will be doing is punishing casual players who already have difficulty obtaining levels. It would also likely increase the reluctance to closure higher level characters as the difficulty in starting new characters would seem excrutiating.

Overall I think our current rates are fine.

I like that it's pretty easy to reach level 10. Once you're level 10 you can generally contribute something positive to almost any party you join. Slowing the progression at lower levels would tend to segregate lower players longer from engaging with higher level characters.

The low levels are the bullied levels too, and I like that you can't bully someone for too long, because they'll soon be formidable enough to cause you to question your actions.


I agree with all these points  
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DM Cataclysm on January 05, 2015, 04:59:43 PM
I should also mention that making level progression slower will have the effect of making players will hold onto their characters for longer (and won't seek out the end to their character's story) and it will discourage them from making new characters. Things need to be made easier for new characters, not harder. We already have a pretty steep learning curve as is.

I was thinking of this exact point earlier. The more tedious something is, the less likely you are to want to get rid of what you've achieved and replicate it again later. Case in point: I can finally make alchemical arrows after spending months learning 4 slow leveling crafts. It's going to be a cold day in hell before that character goes anywhere >_>
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FinalHeaven on January 05, 2015, 05:03:11 PM
I should also mention that making level progression slower will have the effect of making players will hold onto their characters for longer (and won't seek out the end to their character's story) and it will discourage them from making new characters. Things need to be made easier for new characters, not harder. We already have a pretty steep learning curve as is.

I'm definitely against slowing down low level xp gain. I feel that low levels should always be pretty easy to obtain, and if it's made harder all it will be doing is punishing casual players who already have difficulty obtaining levels. It would also likely increase the reluctance to closure higher level characters as the difficulty in starting new characters would seem excrutiating.

Overall I think our current rates are fine.

I like that it's pretty easy to reach level 10. Once you're level 10 you can generally contribute something positive to almost any party you join. Slowing the progression at lower levels would tend to segregate lower players longer from engaging with higher level characters.

The low levels are the bullied levels too, and I like that you can't bully someone for too long, because they'll soon be formidable enough to cause you to question your actions.


I agree with all these points  
You're not allowed to just agree! That's too friendly!
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: vlaadfolth on January 05, 2015, 05:17:36 PM
Being a noob and playing characters that mostly are "anti social" type....mages and such. This is discouraging and will give new players that feeling of, Ok i have to play for two years to be able to stand against most of these factions. Some people love this game but have HUGE chunks of life to live and with that it will be close to impossible to level.
Just my rant.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FlyingLotus on January 05, 2015, 05:26:49 PM
I agree with all of this, good points for everyone!

Really though this seems to be largely just personal preference so why not just give people the ability to flip the switch on and off on their own xp gains

It's not like it would even present a problem for the soft cap system since if someone was on blind drive and turned xp off then went to dungeon they'd be gaining no xp as opposed to reduced xp, so the fact that killing things wouldn't keep them on blind drive longer would be inconsequential.

However, if this is still seen as a problem I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to make it so xp is not applied to your character while still affecting your current cap level, right?

I don't see why someone elses level or ability to level matters to anyone else
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Dumas on January 05, 2015, 05:43:56 PM
Gosh, as I figure it, my main character took over two years to hit level 16... Don't know why I'm so far behind the average.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Dhark on January 05, 2015, 05:49:33 PM
This is a real toughy .  One one hand, yes, the lower levels are great, the setting really has impact when a random night spawn can kill you with one crit.... On the other hand youve just created you character, you want to see some progression with that character, not wait two months of five hours a day to get that "essential" feat or spell that makes that build work how you invisioned.

Futher more the amount of content for these levels is huge, so slowing down the early levels and allowing people to experience it all is not a bad idea. {esp once the road to Zidenburg is finished)
In the end some will always powerlevel , some will always take it slow, no matter what you do there will always be disparity.

Now in my day [wags finger at the youngsters] we didn't have all these fancy dungeons, folk leveled slower at high levels and were content (I think it took me 2+ years to reach 20)

YES Har'akir needs a nerf bat taken to it.

I'll also add I agree with Dalek's pont about not needing the mist camp, I recall having a conversation long ago with a certain Panda about how, if given the oppertunity to start all over again the server would be best built from  Borca -> Barovia -> Hazlan, but thats besides the point.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: IDreamofDaleks on January 05, 2015, 05:50:56 PM
It seems to me like the same people who question why other people care about their leveling progression when it 'doesnt affect them' are the same ones that often times comment to me in other mediums about a lack of DM attention.

Here's a hint as to why other people care about your leveling progression: It is hard to challenge and frighten high level characters with anything short of a full psychological/mental attack which needs to be highly personalized and individual rather than something that can be tailored for a whole group.  They find it even harder to balance and properly scare a group of people when half of them are lower leveled hanging around said higher levels.  This is especially true when said higher levels seem to scoff at many things that a lower leveled party would find frightening.and why wouldn't they? They've fought demons and elder undead on the daily?

You can't have it both ways, and I'm only bringing this up as an answer to the "Why someone else's level and ability matters to anyone else" inquiry. (Also, if I could I'd rebuild the server with: Barovia > Borca> Forlorn/Kartakass>Sithicus>Hazlan> Darkon)
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FinalHeaven on January 05, 2015, 05:57:16 PM
It seems to me like the same people who question why other people care about their leveling progression when it 'doesnt affect them' are the same ones that often times comment to me in other mediums about a lack of DM attention.

Here's a hint as to why other people care about your leveling progression: It is hard to challenge and frighten high level characters with anything short of a full psychological/mental attack which needs to be highly personalized and individual rather than something that can be tailored for a whole group.  They find it even harder to balance and properly scare a group of people when half of them are lower leveled hanging around said higher levels.  This is especially true when said higher levels seem to scoff at many things that a lower leveled party would find frightening.and why wouldn't they? They've fought demons and elder undead on the daily?

You can't have it both ways, and I'm only bringing this up as an answer to the "Why someone else's level and ability matters to anyone else" inquiry. (Also, if I could I'd rebuild the server with: Barovia > Borca> Forlorn/Kartakass>Sithicus>Hazlan> Darkon)
I would agree with this to some extent but I would also point out that this only answers why a DM would care about high level characters.  Not, say, what business it is of another player whom I may have never even interacted with before.

I also think that you can in fact make high level characters sweat, if they're willing to sweat.  Which comes back to the mentality discussion.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FlyingLotus on January 05, 2015, 06:00:38 PM
Ah, I've had quite a bit of DM attention lately on all my characters it's been great :) I agree it can be very hard for a DM to balance an encounter like that. It comes down to higher lvls having the presence of mind to not try and carry everything if the encounter isn't catering to their lvls but the lower ones as well as plenty of other things. Even when it's a party of nothing but higher lvl characters DM's can have a hard time making an encounter difficult without being impossible-but I think some recent changes have made this a little easier on them (though that's just speculation). Still, any attempt at it is always appreciated and I don't mind the encounters that are too hard to beat-intentional or not. There was a certain fight a while back in which myself and maybe 6 other high lvls were giving it seriously everything we had and were hardly scratching this thing-it was maybe one of the most fun fight ever. We didn't even beat it ourselves! Good stuff that.

My meaning is this, if you don't enjoy the way someone levels or plays or whatever it's very simple to stop playing with them. There's a large playerbase and avoiding people other than through what can be made brief happenstance encounters is very possible. So inventing ways to try to mold everyone to your preference instead doesn't seem like a necessary step, im my opinion.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Satyricon on January 05, 2015, 06:25:57 PM
I have played this server maybe half a year, maybe more. (Is there a way to know exactly?)
This server is fun because there are very dedicated role-players. But this is a game after all, and many people still find a great enjoyment in leveling up and seeing the progression of your character, not only in RP aspects.

I have played PoTM A LOT. A great deal too much really, to be considered normal :P

Anyhow, as a pure melee barbarian, it still took me more than half a year to reach level 14.. and as I said I've played more than what is healthy at times.
(And this is during my free time) I work from 7AM-16PM everyday, so It's not like I've spent all my time in PoTM ;)

Slowing down exp rate for me would make me consider quitting the server sadly, since I work very hard as is to get exp. And in my opinion it's good that you have to work hard for exp, but penalizing players too much because they enjoy killing monsters more than sitting in Vallaki doing RP for hours, doesn't seem fair.

We're all here to have fun. And some people are here for the RP, others for leveling. Some people enjoy both, like myself, I enjoy the RP aspects greatly (Even if I still suck at RP) but I also play this game because it's a game, and I enjoy leveling and killing monsters.

On another note, I don't think the server is 100% perfectly balanced because it isn't. But I do not think the problem lies in the exp rate..
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Dhark on January 05, 2015, 06:50:15 PM
(Also, if I could I'd rebuild the server with: Barovia > Borca> Forlorn/Kartakass>Sithicus>Hazlan> Darkon)

Barovia = Vampires , you dont want to start off killing such an iconic and supposedly tough monster, If you start in Borca, it has a bit of everything and lots of fancy clothes , politics ect so you dont need the levels to be in the swing. Hazlan is dangerous because its more alien and a bad place to be if your not a local esp wizards, also you can go to town with wizardly experiment outcasts

//shoves the thread back on the rails
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: eyeofpestilence on January 05, 2015, 07:23:13 PM
Read the thread.

The issue isn't power leveling, it's bunnying lowbies with high lvl chars. Easy way to fix while allowing mentoring xp. Allow the RP xp for chars below 10 past mist camp but dungeon xp is zip.

I should also mention that making level progression slower will have the effect of making players will hold onto their characters for longer (and won't seek out the end to their character's story) and it will discourage them from making new characters. Things need to be made easier for new characters, not harder. We already have a pretty steep learning curve as is.

I'm definitely against slowing down low level xp gain. I feel that low levels should always be pretty easy to obtain, and if it's made harder all it will be doing is punishing casual players who already have difficulty obtaining levels. It would also likely increase the reluctance to closure higher level characters as the difficulty in starting new characters would seem excrutiating.

Overall I think our current rates are fine.

I like that it's pretty easy to reach level 10. Once you're level 10 you can generally contribute something positive to almost any party you join. Slowing the progression at lower levels would tend to segregate lower players longer from engaging with higher level characters.

The low levels are the bullied levels too, and I like that you can't bully someone for too long, because they'll soon be formidable enough to cause you to question your actions.


I agree with all these points 

Ditto!

I think it was Veng whom suggested (something to the effect of) lvl 16 plus being rp xp only or to decrease dungeon xp significantly for these levels. I think this is a great suggestion!
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Bad_Bud on January 05, 2015, 07:39:12 PM
The XP already is decreased significantly for those levels.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: armybrat69 on January 05, 2015, 08:07:02 PM
Due to my gaps in playing time since I joined the server my two main characters are high level but I cannot say in all actuality how long it took for each to hit their current levels. I voted keep the leveling system as it is however if there is consideration for xp slowing please target the high levels vs the low levels. I do like some of the ideas mentioned and would support

1. Lowering xp gain in Har Akr
2. Allowing players the option to stop gaining xp

At this rate I have not been active enough to even truly plan a possible end for any of my characters, if RP leads to it then so be it, let it come unexpected. As of right now one is more for the "healer" in some high level runs, and my other is a crafter, neither of which I see a need to hit max level. I would prefer to see more gain from roleplay xp over dungeoning, more balance between these. Honestly I would fear to see more people leaving due to needing an application to advance in level or to stop gaining xp unless given by a DM, let a character progression be more player driven, as it is now I think that part is in balance. If a player wants to level fast they know the areas, spawns to hit up, loot to find etc. If they do not want to they can play an alt toon or stick more to RP.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: eyeofpestilence on January 05, 2015, 09:41:47 PM
The XP already is decreased significantly for those levels.


I don't know how the xp system works but if the decrease is off the larger sum from the higher xp reward based on challenge rating for the player it's still considerably favourable? If the high levels are being rewarded with Satisfieds and Prouds, yet the lowby tag along leaching xp is getting the same regardless of the xp decrease, it's obviously not enough of a decrease to deter it from occurring. Feedback from DM's is it's observed as not enough to deter it from occurring.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Bad_Bud on January 05, 2015, 11:06:02 PM
Read the first post. The experience gain scales such that... going from level 1 - 16 takes roughly the same amount of time as level 17 - 20. In theory at least.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Merry Munchkin on January 06, 2015, 12:00:13 AM
Read the thread.

The issue isn't power leveling, it's bunnying lowbies with high lvl chars.




This is a problem on every server I have ever played on, and the solutions generally fall into 3 methodologies or combination of these methodologies:

1.  nerf the xp for everyone in a party if there is a level disparity greater than "X" between the lowest and highest.  the lowbie gets no benefit from latching on to high level characters.
2.  level-restricting dungeons -- you can't pass a transition if you are not in the correct level range.  This keeps lowbies out of high level areas, and vice versa.
3.  utilizing ILR on items, to prevent high level characters from spawning great loot for the lowbie to use

Clever players will generally figure out ways to circumvent restrictions, however, so none of these methods should be viewed as foolproof, even in combination.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Meriana on January 06, 2015, 12:45:05 AM
I find levelling pretty slow already myself, and while lowering the rate would no doubt hinder those great jump-aheaders, it would likely prove a bit dull to those who aren't able to schmorp up levels that quickly. There's always going to be some manner of extremes, with a few progressing very quickly and others much slower.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Tycat on January 06, 2015, 01:37:04 AM
I am glad i am not the only one who levels at a snail's pace. I really don't understand how people level so fast. i don't. And IDK i think it just wouldn't be fair for those of us who don't level fast at all.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Lucadia on January 06, 2015, 02:50:16 AM
Ill point out being invovled in dm events will level you faster then any dungeon in Harakir will if you get into a story arc and can follow through.  Those that grind are just trying keep up with those that rp, where they feel comfortable at. Or just enjoy doing it.

I would be in favor of //increasing// exp gains for those that wished it, they will find their characters will burn out faster and there will be less attachment in losing them, knowing your time wasnt wasted (but this is in course subjective for each player in how they view time spent)
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Ehver on January 06, 2015, 02:55:54 AM
Ill point out being invovled in dm events will level you faster then any dungeon in Harakir will if you get into a story arc and can follow through.  Those that grind are just trying keep up with those that rp, where they feel comfortable at. Or just enjoy doing it.

I would be in favor of //increasing// exp gains for those that wished it, they will find their characters will burn out faster and there will be less attachment in losing them, knowing your time wasnt wasted (but this is in course subjective for each player in how they view time spent)

That's....... actually an interesting idea.

But I'm not sure it would work out well in practice, and gawshdarnit I hate high magic.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Phantasia on January 06, 2015, 03:01:43 AM
Actually that is similar to what Arelith does with a system called "Mark of Destiny" or something. It offers you more gradual experience at the cost of if you are corpsed 10 times (in PvP/PvE), your character is "perma-dead" (deleted from the vault).

I don't think something like that would work very well here, anyway.

As for the spirit of the thread... I don't really have much to say on this except that progression seems fine enough as it is to me. There's a fine line between gut-wrenching difficulty and an enjoyable challenge.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Lucadia on January 06, 2015, 03:03:37 AM
You may hate high level magic, but you should not be discouraging players from attaining it , if that was their goal. You can react to it as how you see fit, allow them to have their fun, share in the narrative (or dont) but there should be room to bargain with all players about what they want, or dont want. Lately all the ideas have been remove this, lower this, nerf this.

Our roleplay manifest is the best code of conduct we have , and should probably reveiwed more often then offering all these changes of late. I would rather take a step back from stuff I dont like and allow others to have their fun, then take it  and chase parts of our player base away.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Ehver on January 06, 2015, 03:09:16 AM
You may hate high level magic, but you should not be discouraging players from attaining it , if that was their goal. You can react to it as how you see fit, allow them to have their fun, share in the narrative (or dont) but there should be room to bargain with all players about what they want, or dont want. Lately all the ideas have been remove this, lower this, nerf this.

Our roleplay manifest is the best code of conduct we have , and should probably reveiwed more often then offering all these changes of late. I would rather take a step back from stuff I dont like and allow others to have their fun, then take it  and chase parts of our player base away.

That's good advice, and as I've said multiple times, I have taken the necessary and completely IC steps to removing myself from situations that I don't enjoy. But a lot of them are very in-your-face and unavoidable and completely ruin atmosphere for me personally (and perhaps others as well).

REGARDLESS this was all discussed on the other thread so we don't need to go into that here again, lest this thread get locked as well. ; )
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: A normal snake on January 06, 2015, 03:36:18 AM
I've played servers where there was absolutely no restriction to XP gain, people figured out how to grind to max level very quickly and you'd end up with people who wouldn't start RPing until they were at the max level. I think having easy max levels only works on servers where there's a low max level. Low levels are really good for initial character development, with leveling being a good way to represent the character growing as a character.

With all of this said, I should clarify that I don't think this is a giant issue. While I've noticed certain behaviours, I don't think it's server breaking. I'm just commenting on my observations.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Lucadia on January 06, 2015, 03:42:06 AM
I been also on servers that had no limitations to experience you could gain and cap out in a month or two. and I noted more role play that was conductive to the server setting was better, because the players felt comfortable at their levels and they chose story more over then going out and grinding. They behave, act as mentors, they give other players quests to do in their factions , tasks, rp opportunity while not using said level to bully anyone else around.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: functor on January 06, 2015, 06:00:28 AM
That escalated quickly.

Voted for the 'as it is' option; I don't think that the issue of immersion breaking can be solved by making leveling a time privilege.

Just two personal things. First, it is sometimes not just that you cannot play a lot every day, it is also that there may be time periods when you can't play at all. The fact that I was able to progress fast with my NCW character (I did level 6 in less than a week) makes me hope that when I come to play again (I can't now), I will continue with the character and not throw her in the trash can/make a new one/etc. Second, I would feel discouraged to play some characters which begin to show themselves fully only after a few levels are attained. 

Probably all that was mentioned anyway in this thread...
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Ehver on January 06, 2015, 06:05:38 AM
I think based on the poll alone (both on this thread and the other) it's safe to say that the vast majority of the server isn't interested in seeing a change. There is a vocal right that thinks there is a problem and a vocal left that thinks there isn't a problem... and in the end, it seems that the largest chunk of the player base is honestly quite happy with the experience as it stands. I might disagree, but if the majority doesn't stand on my side then there's nothing for me to do but either accept things as they are and make the best of it, or move on to something else.

I do believe the question asked at the start of this thread has been answered, and a number of other questions by proxy. : )
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: de_reguer on January 06, 2015, 07:33:04 AM
I'd like to see a hard cap at level 16 that prevents xp earned through killing creatures. Your options to level would then be roleplaying or DM xp.

Alternatively drop it by 75% so that high level dungeons still have some benefit.

I'd then be fine with the rates as is.

Thats fine but not all of us have interacted with DMs all that much. I think in 4 years Ive stumbled across or been involved in three or four DM run encounters. Except for one encounter in Hazlan about a year ago I've still got an entire story arc for this character I have failed to develop at all because I haven't managed to attract the attention of any of the DMs when their online, and have been hesitant about randomly posting something on the forums related to it. If I were a full time crafter rather than someone who wanders off alone out of boredom I suspect it would be even worse.

One thing that could be looked at is some DM stories that involve events for higher level characters. I cant count the number of times were hearing about some event off the shout channel while a half dozen to a dozen higher level characters are sitting in the Mist Camp trying to work up the energy to go hit Harakir, Hazlan, or Perfidus yet again. Sithicus is less of an option but it is also there. I would submit that high level grinding occurs as a byproduct of having less to do than at lower levels. Past level 13 or so There really arent that many places you can go. Also as for low level gaining levels so rapidly this is going to be inevitable when places like the Vallaki Morninglord Crypt is a viable place to dungeon all the way up to level 11 or so. If its at high spawn you literally don't need to do anything but park in the ML temple. Players start to wander because they get bored with it. Not because it isnt rewarding in a pinch. Similarly the Terg Ruins and the Alhoon Layer will reward good exp all the way up to 15th level or so if their at high spawn.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: A normal snake on January 06, 2015, 11:16:51 AM
For people who gain XP slowly and are concerned, I think the solution would be more along the lines of increasing the XP reduction for blind drive, that wouldn't effect you guys nearly as much.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Theorem Of Neutrality on January 06, 2015, 11:18:39 AM
Voted for slower progression for high levels characters.

I think it would be conducive to a different attitude and approach to overcoming problems at higher levels and create a different atmosphere in terms of conflict between high levels players.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: emptyanima on January 06, 2015, 11:30:21 AM
For people who gain XP slowly and are concerned, I think the solution would be more along the lines of increasing the XP reduction for blind drive, that wouldn't effect you guys nearly as much.

That sounds like a better idea, I think. :)
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: The Prophet of Lies on January 06, 2015, 12:51:51 PM
While it is a frightening and oft-unknowable thing, the infinitely available time that one is afforded in youth withers away when you're pulling 60 hours on a job weekly.

I've been to both sides of the spectrum -- the luxury and hilarity of free time and the non-existence of free time while working.

For the people in the latter category (no time), making it -harder- to level (which is something I enjoy) would just be a massive pain in my [our collective] ass[es].

Though I'm thoroughly entrenched in the roleplaying aspect of DND, I also very much appreciate the mechanical aspect and making an already unforgiving crawl more unforgiving is not something I'd look forward to.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Jeebs on January 06, 2015, 06:25:43 PM
  This thread makes me laugh... mostly because I was going over Soren's estimates for level gains and my main character is only level 10 after 4 years of playing him. Granted, I hardly ever dungeon and so most of my XP comes from RP and the rare few DM events I've participated in, but it always amazed me how other characters can rocket past me in levels.  So I'm kinda on the knife's edge with this one... in a way, I want to say "yes, make it slower to level" but on the other hand, I want to say no because I'm already levelling slowly enough as it is.

  That being said, I do like the idea of players being able to self-impose XP caps to throttle their levelling... but at the same time, I don't see that being much use. As it is, players can easily cut down the speed they gain levels by avoiding repeatedly grinding dungeons or staying away from higher levels (though I will tell you, from my experience, the latter doesn't help you that much unless you're very low level).  I think the players who want to level fast will always find a way to do so regardless of what is done to slow them down, while the players who want to take their time can still easily do that now. So I'm gonna have to say things are fine the way they are now.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: IDreamofDaleks on January 06, 2015, 06:39:12 PM
For people who gain XP slowly and are concerned, I think the solution would be more along the lines of increasing the XP reduction for blind drive, that wouldn't effect you guys nearly as much.

I think this may appease most of the people on this thread, and the most different types of play styles honestly, because it's only effecting the people it's already meant to effect, just for a bit more. It's probably also one of the easiest changes to actually implement without it being too unbalanced to preexisting characters.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Jeebs on January 06, 2015, 06:44:11 PM
Low levels are really good for initial character development, with leveling being a good way to represent the character growing as a character.

That is in part why it never bothered me that I was levelling so much more slowly than others. I actually feel a real sense of achievement when I gain a level after months of playing. It feels like there was a journey, and things were learned. Just doesn't have the same feeling to it when you gain 3-4 levels in a week.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Super Sugar on January 06, 2015, 08:00:40 PM
For people who gain XP slowly and are concerned, I think the solution would be more along the lines of increasing the XP reduction for blind drive, that wouldn't effect you guys nearly as much.

I think this may appease most of the people on this thread, and the most different types of play styles honestly, because it's only effecting the people it's already meant to effect, just for a bit more. It's probably also one of the easiest changes to actually implement without it being too unbalanced to preexisting characters.

I agree with this.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Iluvatar on January 07, 2015, 01:02:25 AM
Low levels are really good for initial character development, with leveling being a good way to represent the character growing as a character.

That is in part why it never bothered me that I was levelling so much more slowly than others. I actually feel a real sense of achievement when I gain a level after months of playing. It feels like there was a journey, and things were learned. Just doesn't have the same feeling to it when you gain 3-4 levels in a week.

Getting 3 -4 lvl in week just happened with the first 4 lvl try leveling from lvl 10 to 14 in a week impossible you even get enough XP to lvl up once. I used to play a server in which you could make XP really quickly (before finding Ravenloft) and getting the 10 000 xp to pass from lvl 10 to 11 would take about a week and the rate at which we gained XP was 10 time faster then here already did lvl 1 to 6 in 1 day  :P   i personnaly that the rate at which we gain lvl is fine i feel if it take a month to gain 1 lvl yes maybe you get a sense of achievment though it would get boring with time because it would take far to much just get a char with enought firepower to explore place where you actualy get a challenge and where you have fun fighitng strong creature
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: vlaadfolth on January 07, 2015, 01:53:50 AM
Yep.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: --GlamRock-- on January 07, 2015, 04:06:28 AM
I believe this matter is quite complex and there cannot be a unique point of view, of course.

Mine is this. The level progression of this server has always been quite slow, especially for the higher levels, but also for the first levels: I managed to hit level 6 during the NCE but it was circumstantial, since I'm aware in the same time I would have hit probably level 4 if high levels were around. There was more possibilities for RP and there were parties more balanced while dungeoning, this is my opinion.

I've been playing here with occasional interruptions for 8 years by now and I admit when the server was smaller (no Dementlieu, Hazlan, Har-Akir, Sithicus, Blaustein, Perfidius, Wachter's lands, not many dungeons in Village of Barovia etc), there were just a few areas which could grant decent xps for dungeoning, and once you hit some level 14-15 dungeoning became hardly rewarding at all. At that time there were even no crafts, if not smithing, and herbalism was something new (probably around 6-7 years ago), alchemy came even later, magical weapons were rarer. Believe me if you were not there, it was not easy at all to even yearn at lev 20. Yet there were people who managed.

Now the situation is clearly different, many things have changed, and some things are easier: if you don't find a good spawn, you may check the other dozens dungeons for your levels. If you need to lift the cap of your characters, you may commit to one of the exhaustive crafts.

The sense of progression here is mainly related to the stories, there are some who, more favourable in time zones, are more involved than others, but the server is never empty; our biography boards are full with many interesting stories of the players, most of them are things which have happened in game.

However I am with Prophet here, there is also a sense of satisfaction in the mechanical progression, for a series of reasons which have been widely stated already (the need of some skills, feats, etc to shape the character more, for instance), and sometimes some of us (me included) cannot really spend more than a couple of hours daily here, and making things harder would easily spoil part of the fun.

On the other hand there is a matter of attitude, and as an Italian I'm well aware of this. You can find even the most complex algorythm to have a proper balance on progression or whatever, but those who have the proper skills to level up faster will do anyway, while those who are already slow in levelling will be just slower. The attitude, in general, which should be changed is that levelling up is more important than the shared narrative we're all involved in: level progression, in my view, is good as it is, and something more could be done by us players. However I admit some dungeons could be tweaked in terms of reward/danger. I personally do not have any lev 20 in my vault, my max level character is a 19 which I have used extensively for 2-3 years, when I could commit up to 8 hours daily, but I never complained of her being slow: she was part of some of the most fun stories I was ever involved. I was hungry for stories and involvement. Had she been slower, yes, I would have enjoyed the stories as well, but for sure she would have been less "shaped" in the mechanical build (and this doesn't mean anything necessarily related to fighting but also social skills).

In my view things should remain the same, with some tweaking here and there. But however things are done and decided, I fully trust in the Developing team wider vision, and I will, personally, try as usual to be happy with the stories around my characters.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: functor on January 07, 2015, 05:02:16 AM
I believe this matter is quite complex and there cannot be a unique point of view, of course.

Mine is this. The level progression of this server has always been quite slow, especially for the higher levels, but also for the first levels: I managed to hit level 6 during the NCE but it was circumstantial, since I'm aware in the same time I would have hit probably level 4 if high levels were around. There was more possibilities for RP and there were parties more balanced while dungeoning, this is my opinion.

I've been playing here with occasional interruptions for 8 years by now and I admit when the server was smaller (no Dementlieu, Hazlan, Har-Akir, Sithicus, Blaustein, Perfidius, Wachter's lands, not many dungeons in Village of Barovia etc), there were just a few areas which could grant decent xps for dungeoning, and once you hit some level 14-15 dungeoning became hardly rewarding at all. At that time there were even no crafts, if not smithing, and herbalism was something new (probably around 6-7 years ago), alchemy came even later, magical weapons were rarer. Believe me if you were not there, it was not easy at all to even yearn at lev 20. Yet there were people who managed.

Now the situation is clearly different, many things have changed, and some things are easier: if you don't find a good spawn, you may check the other dozens dungeons for your levels. If you need to lift the cap of your characters, you may commit to one of the exhaustive crafts.

The sense of progression here is mainly related to the stories, there are some who, more favourable in time zones, are more involved than others, but the server is never empty; our biography boards are full with many interesting stories of the players, most of them are things which have happened in game.

However I am with Prophet here, there is also a sense of satisfaction in the mechanical progression, for a series of reasons which have been widely stated already (the need of some skills, feats, etc to shape the character more, for instance), and sometimes some of us (me included) cannot really spend more than a couple of hours daily here, and making things harder would easily spoil part of the fun.

On the other hand there is a matter of attitude, and as an Italian I'm well aware of this. You can find even the most complex algorythm to have a proper balance on progression or whatever, but those who have the proper skills to level up faster will do anyway, while those who are already slow in levelling will be just slower. The attitude, in general, which should be changed is that levelling up is more important than the shared narrative we're all involved in: level progression, in my view, is good as it is, and something more could be done by us players. However I admit some dungeons could be tweaked in terms of reward/danger. I personally do not have any lev 20 in my vault, my max level character is a 19 which I have used extensively for 2-3 years, when I could commit up to 8 hours daily, but I never complained of her being slow: she was part of some of the most fun stories I was ever involved. I was hungry for stories and involvement. Had she been slower, yes, I would have enjoyed the stories as well, but for sure she would have been less "shaped" in the mechanical build (and this doesn't mean anything necessarily related to fighting but also social skills).

In my view things should remain the same, with some tweaking here and there. But however things are done and decided, I fully trust in the Developing team wider vision, and I will, personally, try as usual to be happy with the stories around my characters.

Well said.

About blind drive comments. Instead of worsening the blind drive, maybe one should consider the possibility of tweaking the other side : those who are 'behind the schedule' (strong desire to seek new adventures etc.) could get even more XP as a bonus...
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: emptyanima on January 07, 2015, 05:14:43 AM
I am pretty sure that characters who haven't dungeoned for a long time are rewarded with bonus XP when they do, but I am not sure how much or if I am just imagining the effect.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DM Cataclysm on January 07, 2015, 08:49:03 AM
I am pretty sure that characters who haven't dungeoned for a long time are rewarded with bonus XP when they do, but I am not sure how much or if I am just imagining the effect.

There is an xp bonus, when your rest message states something along the lines of 'You've been neglecting your path and have a strong desire to seek new adventures.' I think it gives a small boost in xp earned and increases the period you can go before hitting a cap on the other side.

I've always really appreciated these bonuses! Several of my characters have been locked away for weeks or months at a time, learning certain crafts. Occasionally you can get people to come and RP with you during the process (thanks Cloud, Sokol, and several of Taylor's characters!) - but primarily you don't advance in levels much at all since a lot of practicing is done solo. It is nice that once you start adventuring again, you can get a little boost to try to catch up.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Bad_Bud on November 05, 2015, 12:17:25 AM
I have noticed a stronger cap at lower levels. Is it intentional? I got my NCE character to level 4 in two days, playing off and on. Then I decided to stop playing until the was uncapped. It's been four days now, and the character is still capped. The character has existed longer in a state of capped than uncapped.

I haven't noticed much difference in my higher level characters.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Miuo on November 05, 2015, 06:37:41 AM
I rather like it how it is, but if it took longer that would be nice to. One of the things i absolutely love about potm is how long it takes to level.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Kendric98 on November 05, 2015, 07:17:55 AM
Changing it will effect nothing because the percentage of people who level grind will still do so ,and the people who don't will still not grind. As a result the people doing so will still level faster than those that don't. Did that make any sense its early so i might be rambling?
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: HellsPanda on November 05, 2015, 08:31:47 AM
The problem is very few people really enjoy the first few levels, but love the mid levels. The result of it becoming more tedious and therefor a grind is that people have less interest in playing their low level chars. And stick to their high levels so long that the character becomes a stale copy of itself
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Miuo on November 05, 2015, 09:04:12 AM
I don't find them tedious at all, I find them the most rewarding. The early levels of a new char are when i find you make the best ties to other characters. Because everyone's looking for people to help  adventure with. Once you start getting up there in level people tend to solo the usual hot spots and become rather reclusive to their own cliques.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DM Cataclysm on November 05, 2015, 09:10:20 AM
Yeah, I would agree with Bud and Panda on this. I hit a cap on my first NCE character just as I reached level 4. The cap was taking a while to go away and I didn't want to give him a mega cap with continued play, so I created a second character. He hit a cap now as well :/

I seem to recall from previous NCE's, not hitting a cap until the 5/6 range, which was nice because you have a few more options at that point.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: HellsPanda on November 05, 2015, 09:44:12 AM
Exactly
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: booksarefun666 on November 05, 2015, 10:26:50 AM
The cap is pretty annoying but I can understand why it's there. I admit, I'd probably grind levels a lot more instead of RP if it wasn't there to hold my hand.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Merry Munchkin on November 05, 2015, 11:13:33 AM
I think it is important to keep in mind that the XP throttle does not prevent players from PLAYING the game as often as they like.  A player can dungeon all they want, grind all they want, RP all they want, and craft all they want.  When people complain about the throttle, what they are SOLELY complaining about is not getting a big enough reward for such activities.

The throttle does not prevent or inhibit a fully interactive and rich play experience.  Play all you want, as often as you want, and enjoy the time spent playing.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: peps on November 05, 2015, 11:38:36 AM
I don't find them tedious at all, I find them the most rewarding. The early levels of a new char are when i find you make the best ties to other characters. Because everyone's looking for people to help  adventure with. Once you start getting up there in level people tend to solo the usual hot spots and become rather reclusive to their own cliques.

When it comes to times when NCE isn't active, I struggle to find anyone to actually roleplay with. Everyone is very reclusive, or is playing a character in another domain.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: booksarefun666 on November 05, 2015, 11:50:06 AM
I don't find them tedious at all, I find them the most rewarding. The early levels of a new char are when i find you make the best ties to other characters. Because everyone's looking for people to help  adventure with. Once you start getting up there in level people tend to solo the usual hot spots and become rather reclusive to their own cliques.

When it comes to times when NCE isn't active, I struggle to find anyone to actually roleplay with. Everyone is very reclusive, or is playing a character in another domain.
'
While this may veer off topic a bit I usually find you won't get a whole lot  of RP unless you initiate it somehow.

If you see a schmuck just say hi to him because it's like dating where you just keep polling until someone responds.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Iconoclast on November 05, 2015, 11:57:42 AM

The cap and progression at low levels is certainly different than in some previous new character events. I don't have any strong feelings either way regarding the changes, but I do notice some benefits to the slower level progression at the lower levels.  

I recall characters being able to level quickly enough before the nce ended in the past, to where you had a much wider level range present during the event, which I don't think is a positive. I'd rather see less of a gap between our higher level nce characters and the lower level ones, as I think we're achieving that at the moment.

I might not be remembering it correctly, but I think I recall a mage levelling up to get the "flesh to stone" spell to use during a former nce.  I think my first nce was with Leander Hoppy, and I pretty much achieved mid level status by the end of the event, which was pretty fast.

I love the low levels, especially when you don't have higher level characters around to sell or toss off gear that makes the game easier. I also prefer the slower progression to the faster progression I experienced with Leander.

I hit a hard cap with my current character at 4, as well.  I'm not a fan of having multiple characters though, especially during an nce when I'm making an effort to build not only a character, but also trying to build some story momentum and narrative cohesion with others, and so I just keep playing through the xp caps regardless of the what the xp messages tell me.



Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Merry Munchkin on November 05, 2015, 12:01:11 PM
I don't find them tedious at all, I find them the most rewarding. The early levels of a new char are when i find you make the best ties to other characters. Because everyone's looking for people to help  adventure with. Once you start getting up there in level people tend to solo the usual hot spots and become rather reclusive to their own cliques.

When it comes to times when NCE isn't active, I struggle to find anyone to actually roleplay with. Everyone is very reclusive, or is playing a character in another domain.
'
While this may veer off topic a bit I usually find you won't get a whole lot  of RP unless you initiate it somehow.

If you see a schmuck just say hi to him because it's like dating where you just keep polling until someone responds.

By me dinner and drinks, and I'll be happy to talk to you.  :)
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: booksarefun666 on November 05, 2015, 12:02:16 PM
I don't find them tedious at all, I find them the most rewarding. The early levels of a new char are when i find you make the best ties to other characters. Because everyone's looking for people to help  adventure with. Once you start getting up there in level people tend to solo the usual hot spots and become rather reclusive to their own cliques.

When it comes to times when NCE isn't active, I struggle to find anyone to actually roleplay with. Everyone is very reclusive, or is playing a character in another domain.
'
While this may veer off topic a bit I usually find you won't get a whole lot  of RP unless you initiate it somehow.

If you see a schmuck just say hi to him because it's like dating where you just keep polling until someone responds.

By me dinner and drinks, and I'll be happy to talk to you.  :)

Why do I feel like you're using me for my money?  :cry:
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: HellsPanda on November 05, 2015, 12:08:43 PM
We achieved level 6-7 with Hoppy and Taka. But that was with some very good DM events involving ogres. and a very interesting team doing it that was a 7 day event.

On low levels, a feeling of progression is very important.

And the leveling rate was perfect before, so I fail to understand the change. But yes the ones who want to will always level faster.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Iconoclast on November 05, 2015, 12:16:29 PM


I thought we achieved a higher level than 6-7 back then, but I could be wrong.  I hit level six just last night, and this isn't by playing all day every day, either. 
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Sheltatha on November 05, 2015, 12:28:29 PM
I noticed that the cap became a lot harsher at lower levels soon after this topic. I think a lot of people are just starting to notice it due to NCE.

I've noticed a lot of people already going back to playing older characters, and I could be wrong but I think it might be due to being permanently capped from level 3. It makes dungeoning feel pretty worthless and there's only so long you can do tavern RP before you want to do something more interesting. That could just be me though.

I'm not presuming to speak for everyone but I think the cap was fine before it was changed and now it's just tedious. The votes were 62% in favour of not changing it when this topic was made.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Syl on November 05, 2015, 12:40:12 PM
I THINK.. and this is only a theory..

That the cap comes based on how much EXP you acquire based on your level.. So lower levels might hit the wall faster say if they were taken to a higher level dungeon like werewolf den or terg. Since the enemies there will give more EXP than that of Crypt or smaller things. Also you have to take into account Larger groups get less exp... While it is the same amount of EXP.. it now has to be split across more people giving each person less exp for any group larger than 5 people.

this might explain why at higher levels it can take a bit longer to hit the cap. Unless you farm trolls every other day. There is more of a gap between the levels now

If that makes sense.. It made more sense in my head... Hopefully someone who is better with words can explain it better.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Better Dread than Dead on November 05, 2015, 01:15:23 PM
I noticed that the cap became a lot harsher at lower levels soon after this topic. I think a lot of people are just starting to notice it due to NCE.

I've noticed a lot of people already going back to playing older characters, and I could be wrong but I think it might be due to being permanently capped from level 3. It makes dungeoning feel pretty worthless and there's only so long you can do tavern RP before you want to do something more interesting. That could just be me though.

I'm not presuming to speak for everyone but I think the cap was fine before it was changed and now it's just tedious. The votes were 62% in favour of not changing it when this topic was made.

Lowering the cap on XP removes a great deal of incentive for people to roll up new characters. Why would I want to make a new character when it's easier to stick with the character that I have? Part of the reason for why we have NCEs are to encourage people to roll up new characters, but the incentive's not there if people are hitting the cap at level 4 or even level 3, even if you do have a party that you are able to adventure and hit dungeons with.

All this does is ensure people are less willing to part with the characters they've spent so long to level up, and that newer characters will be unable to catch up with existing high-level characters no matter what they do. It's as others have said, those who want to grind themselves up will find a way.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: TheGrinningHound on November 05, 2015, 01:21:48 PM
I'm willing to enjoy slow early levels if other people are similarly leveled. That's what makes NCE's so entertaining for me. I have a very hard time enjoying being as low leveled and slow when I'm in the company of much higher levels, because I feel suuuuper fragile and useless.

Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Syl on November 05, 2015, 01:26:03 PM
[shrugs] If you want me to say possible ways to fix it...don't dungeon to much? take gaps and RP.. Gunnar is level for almost 5 and leveling at a steady rate. not hitting the wall yet. if you hitting the wall by level 4 ease up on the throttle and RP [shrugs]
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: herkles on November 05, 2015, 01:50:42 PM
I suppose all the rp that is going on is utterly meaningless if one can't get the next level?
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on November 05, 2015, 01:55:16 PM
I hit 5 a little slower than usual but I've also been playing a very passive role. I don't really feel like levels are terribly necessary to enjoy NCE content. You can do most of the areas in Vallaki with levels 2-5, the problem is a lack of coordination. People run in blindly, don't share buffs, don't heal, etc. I'd love to smack every mage who tries to self-buff and front line in robes w/ a scythe.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FinalHeaven on November 05, 2015, 02:01:16 PM
It is definitely noticeable.  I've been capped for a few days now and the nature of the character I rolled up means he doesn't dungeon much at all.  I agree with Shelt's sentiments as well, I've noticed a lot of people switching back to older characters for chunks of time and I feel inclined to do so myself.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Syl on November 05, 2015, 02:10:49 PM
I suppose all the rp that is going on is utterly meaningless if one can't get the next level?

RP exp is not effected by the Wall/cap
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DrXavierTColtrane on November 05, 2015, 02:35:32 PM
I think the XP cap is fine--especially if it is still not capped re RP. Before NCE started and people would brag about being able to hit level 7 after only two weeks, that seemed very incongruous with the general sense of how the server is described as working.

By the way, any cap that no one complains about serves no purpose. Hence, I don't think that a democratic vote is dispositive of the issue. What would the vote be for DMs giving each of our characters 10,000 free XP? Simply because a majority wants something doesn't mean it's for the best.

Soren wrote at the time of the poll:

Quote
getting level 6 in just one to two weeks makes you hardly experience those levels.

How can anyone argue with that?

In any case, I don't intend to argue. I'm stating my preference only so that the more vocal people aren't mistaken to represent unanimity.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Better Dread than Dead on November 05, 2015, 02:46:55 PM
I can imagine there's quite a few players who don't really enjoy experiencing what it's like to be a low-level character. Outside of NCE, you're more often than not a worthless character who's a tag-along for people who are a much higher level than you are, dead-weight. What happens once NCE's over? How are new players going to react to leveling being so slow? Personally, I think they'll be frustrated concerning their inability to advance in level. There's already a steep learning curve to PotM already, and we're only making it steeper.

As for comments like this:

I suppose all the rp that is going on is utterly meaningless if one can't get the next level?

I view it as rather impolite to insinuate that the only reason anyone would take issue with the cap being lowered is because they're grinding, or do not care about RP.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Honoun on November 05, 2015, 02:51:50 PM
My only complaint about the level gain is that of all the cahracters I've had so far not one of them has ever made level 20. Be nice if I could have a level 20 character one day but the way the XP progression goes on this server that is never likely going to happen as I generally loose interest in my characters well before the cap is ever reached :P
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: booksarefun666 on November 05, 2015, 03:01:27 PM
My only complaint about the level gain is that of all the cahracters I've had so far not one of them has ever made level 20. Be nice if I could have a level 20 character one day but the way the XP progression goes on this server that is never likely going to happen as I generally loose interest in my characters well before the cap is ever reached :P

I like the fact that 20s are rare birds not only because most don't make it there out of boredrom but because everyone at least had one situation where their character could've possibly been perma'd in those two years it takes to make it to 20.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Better Dread than Dead on November 05, 2015, 03:09:16 PM
My only complaint about the level gain is that of all the cahracters I've had so far not one of them has ever made level 20. Be nice if I could have a level 20 character one day but the way the XP progression goes on this server that is never likely going to happen as I generally loose interest in my characters well before the cap is ever reached :P

Like Tarrasque said, I long ago acknowledged that I would never be able to fully experience the end-game content on PotM, simply because by level 14, I either grow tired of the character and start up something fresh or he or she dies for good in a manner that is fitting to said character. This makes the revelation that it's harder to level a new character up all the more frustrating and irksome, in my opinion.

Characters, as they level, receive feats, skills, and spells which help to define them. There can be no separating the levels one acquires and these things that ultimately make that character unique and interesting. They help players fully realize the concepts they have for their character.

The lowering of the XP cap doesn't punish people who grind continuously; however, it does punish people who play a particular character exclusively for a set length of time and generally don't make alts.

Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Syl on November 05, 2015, 03:43:02 PM
I think I've mentioned this before... But while Monica O'Sullivan is about a year old... I have only played her for half a year all together and shes 16 almost 17... or.. .was almost 17 till the hak update.. not sure if it gave me back all my EXP for her..

Leveling is not extremely hard.. while it can be frustrating you just need to find the mix. If you begin to hit the cap... Take a breather.. RP for a while... If you REALLY want a level 20... just forget the cap and keep grinding.., it only caps at -50 or 60% exp from dungeons.. but then you just run more... and RP more. [shrugs] might be wrong on the percentage.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: emptyanima on November 05, 2015, 03:57:17 PM
Like Tarrasque said, I long ago acknowledged that I would never be able to fully experience the end-game content on PotM, simply because by level 14, I either grow tired of the character and start up something fresh or he or she dies for good in a manner that is fitting to said character. This makes the revelation that it's harder to level a new character up all the more frustrating and irksome, in my opinion.

Characters, as they level, receive feats, skills, and spells which help to define them. There can be no separating the levels one acquires and these things that ultimately make that character unique and interesting. They help players fully realize the concepts they have for their character.

The lowering of the XP cap doesn't punish people who grind continuously; however, it does punish people who play a particular character exclusively for a set length of time and generally don't make alts.

*frames comment and hangs on bedroom wall*
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: TheGrinningHound on November 05, 2015, 04:04:05 PM
I personally just feel that it's kind of moot to begin applying a slower leveling speed, when there are characters currently at maximum level. It says something about the server that it's been able to slow the tide of aggregate character progress for as long as it has-- but ultimately I think it would simply work to widen the gap between players who have already invested the necessary time to reach level 20, and any player who would bother to try. It only works to further empower those already at the end game by making the end game for the rest of players that much harder to reach.

I mean, in order to reach level 20 you have to have serious character dedication. So while we could hope that the max level characters begin dropping off one by one until everyone is back to leveling up slower characters, it should be considered that the players in question already possess a large amount of character dedication and are unlikely to stop playing the character in favor of another anytime soon!
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DM Cataclysm on November 05, 2015, 04:15:30 PM
I would also add that I think it is less likely that a player will seek closure on a high level character if it is now harder to reach the same level on a new one. The previous xp cap was a pretty serious one, especially considering level 14+ is capped in a way already. I think slowing down further may deter people from wanting to stay long-term and I'd love to keep some of our new and returning friends around longer : ) Been great seeing so many people around this NCE!
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: EO on November 05, 2015, 04:17:02 PM
I'm fairly certain we haven't touched level progression in a very long time. Don't forget that NCW started 6 days ago only, even if it feels like a lot longer, which may explain why quite a few are hitting the cap.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 05, 2015, 04:32:45 PM
the first nce I ever played I hit lvl 8 by the end, and that was only 1 week long iirc. I've been capped since the end of lvl 3 and now I'm beginning of lvl 5, it just seems different than what I'm used to
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: EO on November 05, 2015, 04:38:30 PM
Strange. I'll try to nudge Soren to look into this topic. As far as I know we haven't touched the XP rates in a very long time.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Lucadia on November 05, 2015, 05:19:44 PM
Im pretty sure the cap has been touched as well. all my new pcs with persistance could hit five and a half at least with easy in a day or  two with groups. I been playing on and off all week and struggled to get past lv 4 with blind drive already for a new pc.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: LordRottenCorpse on November 05, 2015, 05:52:53 PM
Yea , ive been mentaly exhausted for 2 days now and im only lvl 4...
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Time_Stomped on November 05, 2015, 06:09:40 PM
Ugh, anything slower at 9-12 would be quit worthy.  I'd like to at least reach Sithicus.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Ercvadasz on November 05, 2015, 06:48:34 PM
Ugh, anything slower at 9-12 would be quit worthy.  I'd like to at least reach Sithicus.

sithicus?:D
Last of the new areas i've seen was like 20% of Harakir:D And i think the new "RP" zones of Dementliue:D
I think highest i ever got was 14.
But currently my highest level char will not really and likely have ANY reason to leave barovia:) (Morninglordian:P)(not to mention he is nowhere near 14:D)
I think if all goes according to plan i may reach level 12 with rudrig around 2017 and then i can continue my exploration of Harakir, maybe even try a visit to ghastria and Hazlan to see what those places even are:D
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Merry Munchkin on November 05, 2015, 07:21:57 PM
I suppose all the rp that is going on is utterly meaningless if one can't get the next level?

My understanding is that RP experience is not throttled or capped.  Someone correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Honoun on November 05, 2015, 09:36:51 PM
That was my understanding as well, if it isn't then by gum I must cry foul!... Mostly cause I can, in reality I really don't care :P
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Time_Stomped on November 05, 2015, 09:40:24 PM
Ugh, anything slower at 9-12 would be quit worthy.  I'd like to at least reach Sithicus.

sithicus?:D
Last of the new areas i've seen was like 20% of Harakir:D And i think the new "RP" zones of Dementliue:D
I think highest i ever got was 14.
But currently my highest level char will not really and likely have ANY reason to leave barovia:) (Morninglordian:P)(not to mention he is nowhere near 14:D)
I think if all goes according to plan i may reach level 12 with rudrig around 2017 and then i can continue my exploration of Harakir, maybe even try a visit to ghastria and Hazlan to see what those places even are:D


I'm really trying to look at ways where a Morninglord person could do something outside of Barovia.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 05, 2015, 10:08:52 PM
A morninglord player could leave Barovia to spread the message of the Morninglord, to aid those in need, to help fight evil in other lands. I don't see why they would need to be exclusive to Barovia
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Kendric98 on November 05, 2015, 10:28:24 PM
Tatyanna is level 5 now and blind drive and i started the second day of NCE. When i'm on i role play but always go for the xp groups to.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: chuuch1 on November 06, 2015, 01:02:44 AM
This may be just me, but I try not to let the cap dictate the way I play. I actually pretty well ignore it.  Who cares if you don't get as much xp from killing things. For me, joining up in a group and smashing things is fun and I'm not going to let a silly ooc cap stop me from having fun, weather it is rping or dungeoning.  And honestly, the time spent not playing a character to remove cap vs the time spent dungeoning on blind drive are pretty damn even in my opinion.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 06, 2015, 01:48:11 AM
This may be just me, but I try not to let the cap dictate the way I play. I actually pretty well ignore it.  Who cares if you don't get as much xp from killing things. For me, joining up in a group and smashing things is fun and I'm not going to let a silly ooc cap stop me from having fun, weather it is rping or dungeoning.  And honestly, the time spent not playing a character to remove cap vs the time spent dungeoning on blind drive are pretty damn even in my opinion.

You know I agree with you on that-I was just annoyed that I hadn't even passed level three yet and was already capped  :lol: Doesn't change what I choose to do with myself though
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Ercvadasz on November 06, 2015, 02:52:49 AM
A morninglord player could leave Barovia to spread the message of the Morninglord, to aid those in need, to help fight evil in other lands. I don't see why they would need to be exclusive to Barovia

It is not that simple, if you consider canon settings. for instance in Hazlan and Nova Vaasa, they risk that they are jailed or even executed as their preaching may be considered to incite an uprising. In best case scenario they would just be expelled.
In less opressed, or more renessaince like or more tolerant domains it is possible what you say. However for instance for Hazlan this is not the case. Sithicus i am unsure, however being a human allready does not help there, and if you are a preacher of a foreign fate i doubt the elves would really favour you there.
(talking just pure RP side, not considering level req-s and all.)
In harakir as they are Sun cultists they may be considered even allies, not sure about that. But in Blaustein again they would risk death to adventure there.
And I prefer not to go to such places where he risks death, even though we have the raise system, as it would just well show disrespect towards the setting. Imho.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 06, 2015, 03:24:44 AM
Well, we're getting off topic a bit but..

I hear ya, but I don't think those are reasons that you couldn't or shouldn't go to those or other lands.

It might be dangerous, but fighting the good fight is dangerous. My point is, you can stay in Barovia and do Barovia things or you can get out there, and yes, put yourself in dangerous positions-but what you're talking about sounds like good opportunities for character and story development if nothing else. I don't see anything disrespectful of the setting by your good character setting out in to unfriendly territory to do good deeds at severe risk to themselves, in fact I think that should be something that you shouldn't be avoiding.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Mayvind on November 06, 2015, 05:37:54 AM
What are you guys talking about ? level 2 to level 5 can be level up in 2 days for those that grind, to bring cap down has to wait 1 week and cap again at level 6 and will take longer time to get to level 7, cap and level progress goes hand in hand if you group and gaining too much XP within short time you get cap and takes times to disolve it. New Character Weeks people all rush to dungeons and due to setting dungeons spawn high people also gain XP super fast which resolve in CAP. My experience 2 weeks is normal for 2-6 level progress except DMs been generous with PC and they get RP reward which make them level 6 to 7 faster then other.

Well I might be wrong but from my perspective i do not notice slow progress recently, but i suspect a year or so ago it was tweak to make progress super slower at level 15 -20 .. just guessing.

Extra: also there are stages type of CAP and Bonus, Soft Cap, Medium Cap and Hard Cap. As well as Opposite where easier to gain XP or might get more XP.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FinalHeaven on November 06, 2015, 10:49:58 AM
My perspective mostly stems from the fact that last NCE my character went from 2-6 in maybe 4 days. By comparison this NCE my character was hitting the first cap at level 4 and I can guarantee I've not dungeoned as much.

Whether or not something has changed I dunno but that's my observation.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: herkles on November 06, 2015, 10:51:40 AM
I tend to not focus on the cap for the most part and focus on the RP, which incidently provides plenty of xp
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: HellsPanda on November 06, 2015, 12:25:49 PM
This isn't about RPing or not, everyone who notices this and wonders why, and wants it back to how it was, are avid RPers

But we also recognise that at the lowest level you are more eager to see an increased progression than at later levels.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DrXavierTColtrane on November 06, 2015, 12:46:44 PM
But we also recognise that at the lowest level you are more eager to see an increased progression than at later levels.

Looking at Soren's chart in the first post, however, there is plenty of room to maintain an "increased progression" at lower levels than later.

That is, the expectation is 9 months to move from level 16 to 20, versus 1 week to move from level 2 to 6--a ratio of about 39:1.

Even if lower levels took three times as long, the ratio would still be 1/13th of the rate of progression later.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Exordium on November 06, 2015, 12:53:02 PM
IMO moving to level 6 in a week is well too fast. People do it (or at least, have done) even in a few days. The general level progression for all players isn't an issue per-say; It's more the largish difference between players who can maximize their XP gain compared to those who can't either due to the lack of the build, good party, mechanical know-how or playing hours.

Sometimes it feels really silly to spend a week in level 4, while people who started at the same time are already twice that. Low-levels being a thing to zoom through in a few weeks, makes it feel unrewarding to those who enjoy the time before level 10+s and skews conflict.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Lucadia on November 06, 2015, 01:44:50 PM
I think I disagree with everything you said there. Im actually fustrated with the current progression to the point Iv lost a lot desire to continue. I would expect in a two week period to be between 7-9, not lv 5. It makes trying more, tedious then it should be. If somebody is maximizing xp, thats their business and likely have some goal or agenda. It cant possibly be about gear or build because theres none to be had in a ncw . If your playing more hours, its obviousl you should be higher level then the ones who are not.

If they spend a week at lv 4 while others are lv 8 , which is /highly/ unlikely and inhuman amount of sleep time along with similar pcs to help attain that, then likely that lv 4 is accomplishing other goals

Now where have you seen anyone complain that they felt their low level is being unrewarded for somebody passing them up?
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: herkles on November 06, 2015, 02:02:17 PM
Does this mean that the low levels are worthless and the real rp doesn't happen till you are higher level?
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Exordium on November 06, 2015, 02:07:57 PM
I think I disagree with everything you said there. Im actually fustrated with the current progression to the point Iv lost a lot desire to continue. I would expect in a two week period to be between 7-9, not lv 5. It makes trying more, tedious then it should be. If somebody is maximizing xp, thats their business and likely have some goal or agenda. It cant possibly be about gear or build because theres none to be had in a ncw . If your playing more hours, its obviousl you should be higher level then the ones who are not.

I'm not talking about NCE.

Of course people who spend more time to level up their characters should have more XP than people who spend less time doing so; I just think we're slightly (not even by very much) into too big a difference between the extremes.

If they spend a week at lv 4 while others are lv 8 , which is /highly/ unlikely and inhuman amount of sleep time along with similar pcs to help attain that, then likely that lv 4 is accomplishing other goals

What I meant is a scenario where to players both started at day 1. The other went to level 4 by day 7 and level 5 by day 14. The other to level 8 by day 14. That scenario is - or, has been, I'm not fully aware of any changes done in last few months, if such there have been - not entirely unlikely even when the former player does put in more than twenty hours.

Now where have you seen anyone complain that they felt their low level is being unrewarded for somebody passing them up?

I just did? :P

EDIT: I'm not chipping this in any way as an official developer team stance, merely as my own observations and ideas. Given that I haven't played many hours a week for some months now, I'm not necessarily completely up-to-date to current trends and goings, so there might be a bit of old info buried somewhere there.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FinalHeaven on November 06, 2015, 02:27:49 PM
This has literally nothing to do with RP.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DrXavierTColtrane on November 06, 2015, 03:16:13 PM
This has literally nothing to do with RP.

Of course it has something to do with RP.

Regardless of drive and real life commitments, every player has a finite amount of time to spend on the server. One must then allocate limited in-game time to the various activities available, among them RP.

If the XP cap does not apply to RP, then plainly that cap is an incentive to RP more and dungeon, etc. less.

Raising or removing the XP cap likewise affects that incentive, likely diminishing those who will engage in RP.

Claiming otherwise is akin to saying an emissions penalty on highly polluting cars has nothing to do with the number of green cars on the road.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 06, 2015, 03:18:52 PM
It seems to me that you're making the presumption that rp and dungeoning are mutually exclusive-which they are not.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: emptyanima on November 06, 2015, 03:22:25 PM
It seems to me that you're making the presumption that rp and dungeoning are mutually exclusive-which they are not.

^^^^^^^^^^^^

*hangs in frame next to other framed comment from this thread*
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DM Cataclysm on November 06, 2015, 03:25:10 PM
Does this mean that the low levels are worthless and the real rp doesn't happen till you are higher level?

No one is suggesting that - as Panda pointed out, someone's concern about level progression does not suggest they don't care about RP. Regarding your posts - you obviously feel very strongly about quality roleplay, which is outstanding. The sarcastic/passive-aggressive comments toward people who enjoy dungeoning and who are questioning if level progression has slowed down really aren't warranted. The great thing about POTM is that it caters to a variety of play styles. Because some may differ from yours, doesn't make the concerns of those players less valid.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: herkles on November 06, 2015, 03:36:25 PM
Does this mean that the low levels are worthless and the real rp doesn't happen till you are higher level?

No one is suggesting that - as Panda pointed out, someone's concern about level progression does not suggest they don't care about RP. Regarding your posts - you obviously feel very strongly about quality roleplay, which is outstanding. The sarcastic/passive-aggressive comments toward people who enjoy dungeoning and who are questioning if level progression has slowed down really aren't warranted. The great thing about POTM is that it caters to a variety of play styles. Because some may differ from yours, doesn't make the concerns of those players less valid.

My point was that it seems like people just wish to rush through the lower levels. Which can lead to the impression if you must rush to get to the higher levels then the real rp for people doesn't start till a certain level, as you are busy grinding away those levels till you get to that level to rp.



Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: EO on November 06, 2015, 03:43:38 PM
It seems to me that you're making the presumption that rp and dungeoning are mutually exclusive-which they are not.

They're not at all and you're right, so why stop dungeoning when you stop getting XP or start getting less XP?

If people enjoy dungeoning, which is quite fine, then why stop doing it when there's no XP? To me, it says that it's not dungeoning that people like, it's the XP gains.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FinalHeaven on November 06, 2015, 03:49:03 PM
To be fair the only thing I was doing by posting was acknowledging that I also perceive a change in how fast we're getting XP capped at low levels. It effects my ability or desire to dungeon in no way at all, its just noticeable.

And I still maintain this has nothing to do with role play. Dungeoning and role playing aren't mutually exclusive unless you chose to make them so.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DM Cataclysm on November 06, 2015, 04:09:43 PM
Some of the best RP I've experienced on the server has happened while in a dungeon. As a mysterious old wise man once said - RP and combat are not mutually exclusive. My main issue with leveling at a slower pace is that you're stuck in the same areas for a long time. Instead of being able to move to a more difficult location and adventure somewhere like the Terg Ruins (coincidentally, two of my all time favorite RP encounters happened there - during 2 separate NCE's!), you're stuck adventuring to the same areas repeatedly. If anything, I think that runs more of a risk making RP go stale.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: EO on November 06, 2015, 04:11:34 PM
Some of the best RP I've experienced on the server has happened while in a dungeon. As a mysterious old wise man once said - RP and combat are not mutually exclusive. My main issue with leveling at a slower pace is that you're stuck in the same areas for a long time. Instead of being able to move to a more difficult location and adventure somewhere like the Terg Ruins (coincidentally, two of my all time favorite RP encounters happened there - during 2 separate NCE's!), you're stuck adventuring to the same areas repeatedly. If anything, I think that runs more of a risk making RP go stale.

That's a good point but at the same time we see the same groups of people doing the same dungeons at high levels over and over again, dungeons that are known to have the best reward to risk ratio, while neglecting other high level dungeons that have a lower reward to risk ratio. I'm not saying you're part of those groups but it's a tendency we observe as DMs and devs (since we compile stats on all dungeons).
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: EO on November 06, 2015, 04:21:22 PM
To be fair the only thing I was doing by posting was acknowledging that I also perceive a change in how fast we're getting XP capped at low levels. It effects my ability or desire to dungeon in no way at all, its just noticeable.

And I still maintain this has nothing to do with role play. Dungeoning and role playing aren't mutually exclusive unless you chose to make them so.

I haven't seen or heard from Soren this week. He'd be able to answer the original question.

Judging by the initial post, it'd take 7 days to hit 6. Most people who have stopped playing due to caps after 4-5 days were around level 4, which means that in 4-5 days they went from level 2 to somewhere in 4; if the progression is normal, in the remaining 2-3 days, they'd go from 4 to the beginning of 6 if they kept playing. One week to hit level 6 seems very reasonable to me.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Zwickelfaust on November 06, 2015, 04:25:29 PM
I used to worry about leveling. I think it's perfect the way it is. The levels come. They don't matter as much, the rp does.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Dumas on November 06, 2015, 04:31:52 PM
What is the average hourly game play time for that 7 days to hit level 6 though from the original post? Is that based off 2 hours a day, 5 hours a day... Different time will quickly add up.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: EO on November 06, 2015, 04:42:13 PM
What is the average hourly game play time for that 7 days to hit level 6 though from the original post? Is that based off 2 hours a day, 5 hours a day... Different time will quickly add up.

A day is 24 hours. Think of it as the amount of XP per day you need to get from 2 to 6 in seven days. That'd be a cap of 2000 XP per day if I'm not mistaken. Of course it's not that linear since your cap probably decreases a bit with each level but it would be around that.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Bad_Bud on November 06, 2015, 04:44:35 PM
I created my character the first day of NCW, so it's been a week. My character is level 4 (about 25% to 5) and still capped.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 06, 2015, 04:50:31 PM
It seems to me that you're making the presumption that rp and dungeoning are mutually exclusive-which they are not.

They're not at all and you're right, so why stop dungeoning when you stop getting XP or start getting less XP?

If people enjoy dungeoning, which is quite fine, then why stop doing it when there's no XP? To me, it says that it's not dungeoning that people like, it's the XP gains.

I haven't stopped dungeoning though, and never have because of the cap-as I said earlier when I agreed with Chuuch. Dante was on blind drive at level 7 and never got off it again until very very recently when I stopped playing him as much in favor of other characters. All I said was that it seems weird to hit blind drive before you're even past lvl 3
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FinalHeaven on November 06, 2015, 07:35:38 PM
To be fair the only thing I was doing by posting was acknowledging that I also perceive a change in how fast we're getting XP capped at low levels. It effects my ability or desire to dungeon in no way at all, its just noticeable.

And I still maintain this has nothing to do with role play. Dungeoning and role playing aren't mutually exclusive unless you chose to make them so.

I haven't seen or heard from Soren this week. He'd be able to answer the original question.

Judging by the initial post, it'd take 7 days to hit 6. Most people who have stopped playing due to caps after 4-5 days were around level 4, which means that in 4-5 days they went from level 2 to somewhere in 4; if the progression is normal, in the remaining 2-3 days, they'd go from 4 to the beginning of 6 if they kept playing. One week to hit level 6 seems very reasonable to me.

Actually to be honest when you put it this way I'm less convinced there has been a change.  Under normal conditions outside of NCE I usually get a character to level 8 in about a week.  My NCE character now is about half way to 6 I'd estimate and I definitely haven't dungeon'd as much.

Perhaps it's just the rate at which one gains XP?  Like if you go to 3 dungeons that give a large amount one after the other, as opposed to several dungeons that give a lesser amount.  You'd notice the cap faster?
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Arawn on November 06, 2015, 07:51:01 PM
To be fair the only thing I was doing by posting was acknowledging that I also perceive a change in how fast we're getting XP capped at low levels. It effects my ability or desire to dungeon in no way at all, its just noticeable.

And I still maintain this has nothing to do with role play. Dungeoning and role playing aren't mutually exclusive unless you chose to make them so.

I haven't seen or heard from Soren this week. He'd be able to answer the original question.

Judging by the initial post, it'd take 7 days to hit 6. Most people who have stopped playing due to caps after 4-5 days were around level 4, which means that in 4-5 days they went from level 2 to somewhere in 4; if the progression is normal, in the remaining 2-3 days, they'd go from 4 to the beginning of 6 if they kept playing. One week to hit level 6 seems very reasonable to me.

Actually to be honest when you put it this way I'm less convinced there has been a change.  Under normal conditions outside of NCE I usually get a character to level 8 in about a week.  My NCE character now is about half way to 6 I'd estimate and I definitely haven't dungeon'd as much.

Perhaps it's just the rate at which one gains XP?  Like if you go to 3 dungeons that give a large amount one after the other, as opposed to several dungeons that give a lesser amount.  You'd notice the cap faster?

Well, one thing I've seen this NCE is even more than most NCEs a tendency to dungeon in truly massive groups. Keep in mind that for every PC after six you keep in your party, you're losing a chunk of XP.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Iluvatar on November 06, 2015, 07:54:04 PM
To be fair the only thing I was doing by posting was acknowledging that I also perceive a change in how fast we're getting XP capped at low levels. It effects my ability or desire to dungeon in no way at all, its just noticeable.

And I still maintain this has nothing to do with role play. Dungeoning and role playing aren't mutually exclusive unless you chose to make them so.

I haven't seen or heard from Soren this week. He'd be able to answer the original question.

Judging by the initial post, it'd take 7 days to hit 6. Most people who have stopped playing due to caps after 4-5 days were around level 4, which means that in 4-5 days they went from level 2 to somewhere in 4; if the progression is normal, in the remaining 2-3 days, they'd go from 4 to the beginning of 6 if they kept playing. One week to hit level 6 seems very reasonable to me.

Actually to be honest when you put it this way I'm less convinced there has been a change.  Under normal conditions outside of NCE I usually get a character to level 8 in about a week.  My NCE character now is about half way to 6 I'd estimate and I definitely haven't dungeon'd as much.

Perhaps it's just the rate at which one gains XP?  Like if you go to 3 dungeons that give a large amount one after the other, as opposed to several dungeons that give a lesser amount.  You'd notice the cap faster?

Well, one thing I've seen this NCE is even more than most NCEs a tendency to dungeon in truly massive groups. Keep in mind that for every PC after six you keep in your party, you're losing a chunk of XP.

Let's you are more then six PC in a dungeon and get less XP, it should take more time than if you were less than 6 to reach the cap logically... Unless there is something I don't know about how the system is made, which is likely the case, but logically the only impact of being more than 6 should be getting less XP. In theory, if you get less XP it takes longer to reach the cap, no?
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: HellsPanda on November 06, 2015, 09:01:44 PM
The reason you get massive groups, is because there are alot of players in the range. And most of us want to be inclusive. And while yes you get less dungeon xp you get more rp xp, which should keep the xp rate to the cap at a slower pace.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Crimson Shuriken on November 06, 2015, 09:43:31 PM
Its true  :lol:

There have been a few instances of a group of dwarves 4-5 strong that could successfully complete just about all the areas that NCE encompasses, having other random PCs with them along for the ride.
Being inclusive of others is more important (to me at least) than thinking in terms of party composition affecting xp gains.

My NCE character is a smidge to go for level 6.  Was created last Friday, so one week.  He is capped of some sort, but he verbiage is lost on me since it changed.
I feel the progression is fine.  If anything, what is important to me is to get to 5 on this server, as long as that is something accomplished in a week or two then fair enough.


My real concern is my level 17, who has been 17 for a year lol.  I don't dungeon very much with her, but I would like rp to sustain a FAIRLY consistent progress, at least see a message go up a quarter or so.  :lol:
Following NCE I plan on being much more active and dynamic/faction type play so maybe that will kick in some progress again for her. Or maybe I will gain a fancy for slaying demons again.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Vasile on November 07, 2015, 09:36:37 AM
It doesn't sound like the cap was adjusted at all. It's pretty normal to get capped out at lower levels if you're grinding xp like I imagine you all are for NCE. It's even more normal to have that cap remain for days/weeks. I'm surprised all these potm vets don't know this already.  :shock:
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Time_Stomped on November 07, 2015, 10:18:43 AM
I think of think there could be less of a penalty to larger groups, especially if they are going for more challenging stuff that's likely at the appropriate CR rating of the entire group combined.  Having big groups can be fun and can include people.  No one complains about big groups in NCW, unless they are monsters hearing the outskirts bell.  Huge groups should be an option for progression as long as they are doing high spawns.

They're also big targets for DM stuff, so it's all good.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Merry Munchkin on November 07, 2015, 10:26:22 AM
I think of think there could be less of a penalty to larger groups, especially if they are going for more challenging stuff that's likely at the appropriate CR rating of the entire group combined.  Having big groups can be fun and can include people.  No one complains about big groups in NCW, unless they are monsters hearing the outskirts bell.  Huge groups should be an option for progression as long as they are doing high spawns.

They're also big targets for DM stuff, so it's all good.

Well, I have actually heard a bit of grumpiness about big groups -- the massive runs through the crypts and such are borderline ridiculous with the sheer numbers of characters that pile in.  I think people join big groups in NCE not necessarily because they like them, but because they can't afford not to join -- if they wait, the spawns will get cleared by others over and over and over again, and the player gets left out.

Personally, anything more than 6-7 characters maximum starts to get too crowded and out of hand, especially when everyone experiences different lag/latency issues.  I actualy prefer slightly smaller groups of 5 or 6.  Some of the best runs I have ever enjoyed were with 3 people.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Miuo on November 07, 2015, 11:36:02 AM
Id agree, 3-4 seems the ideal party size. Big enough to handle most things but small enough to easily keep track of everyone and keep up with what rp is going on.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: booksarefun666 on November 07, 2015, 12:47:32 PM
I think of think there could be less of a penalty to larger groups, especially if they are going for more challenging stuff that's likely at the appropriate CR rating of the entire group combined.  Having big groups can be fun and can include people.  No one complains about big groups in NCW, unless they are monsters hearing the outskirts bell.  Huge groups should be an option for progression as long as they are doing high spawns.

They're also big targets for DM stuff, so it's all good.

Well, I have actually heard a bit of grumpiness about big groups -- the massive runs through the crypts and such are borderline ridiculous with the sheer numbers of characters that pile in.  I think people join big groups in NCE not necessarily because they like them, but because they can't afford not to join -- if they wait, the spawns will get cleared by others over and over and over again, and the player gets left out.

Personally, anything more than 6-7 characters maximum starts to get too crowded and out of hand, especially when everyone experiences different lag/latency issues.  I actualy prefer slightly smaller groups of 5 or 6.  Some of the best runs I have ever enjoyed were with 3 people.

I loathe big groups because it always ends with a yahoo running back up the stairs about how every skeleton is a skeletal knight.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Better Dread than Dead on November 07, 2015, 12:55:47 PM
Hey now, don't knock all large groups. I was a part of a really good one, and I think our roleplay as a whole was so on point that a DM provided spice for us with the dungeon run.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: MatticusCaesar on November 07, 2015, 01:34:13 PM
Quote

^^^^^^^^^^^^

*hangs in frame next to other framed comment from this thread*

[Invests in emptyanima's new framing company]
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: peps on November 07, 2015, 01:58:48 PM
I'm willing to enjoy slow early levels if other people are similarly leveled. That's what makes NCE's so entertaining for me. I have a very hard time enjoying being as low leveled and slow when I'm in the company of much higher levels, because I feel suuuuper fragile and useless.



This right here. I'm having to sacrifice roleplay just to keep up. If I don't keep up, my character will eventually be left in the dust when other characters move to other domains.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Lucadia on November 07, 2015, 02:07:43 PM
If the pcs your hanging out with are not willing to wait on your pc, I would suspect they are not the crowd you was intended to impressed. Those that want move to other areas ahead of time will do so.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Iluvatar on November 07, 2015, 02:32:18 PM
I'm willing to enjoy slow early levels if other people are similarly leveled. That's what makes NCE's so entertaining for me. I have a very hard time enjoying being as low leveled and slow when I'm in the company of much higher levels, because I feel suuuuper fragile and useless.

This right here. I'm having to sacrifice roleplay just to keep up. If I don't keep up, my character will eventually be left in the dust when other characters move to other domains.

Even when my character is underlevel for an area if my character friends are going, I still go. Even you can't do much in terms of battle, you can still RP and get free XP without risking to die in battle since you stay behind.

Wizard and sorcerers stays behind all the time, they provide wards then get behind, cast a few spell, but otherwise they don't do much in a battle.


Quote
I'm having to sacrifice roleplay just to keep up.

And this, if you really have because to sacrifice Roleplay to keep up with other, then maybe you should try hanging with other people who level at rate closer to your. There is no point in playing a Roleplay game if you never get the chance to Roleplay  :)
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: julienchab on November 07, 2015, 05:04:17 PM

Wizard and sorcerers stays behind all the time, they provide wards then get behind, cast a few spell, but otherwise they don't do much in a battle.


Mostly true at lower levels, but once a wizard or sorc is around lvl 12-13, a player that knows what he is doing will be a huge asset in some fights. Try doing the last room of the Harvest Temple without a mage throwing fireballs around... you'll have a hard time!!!

Wizards and Sorcerers really start doing more in battles around those levels, but then, their power is exponential and they are the ones that can win a lose a battle most of time(i know same can be said of everyone in a balance group, but still)
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on November 07, 2015, 05:20:30 PM

Wizard and sorcerers stays behind all the time, they provide wards then get behind, cast a few spell, but otherwise they don't do much in a battle.


Mostly true at lower levels, but once a wizard or sorc is around lvl 12-13, a player that knows what he is doing will be a huge asset in some fights. Try doing the last room of the Harvest Temple without a mage throwing fireballs around... you'll have a hard time!!!

Wizards and Sorcerers really start doing more in battles around those levels, but then, their power is exponential and they are the ones that can win a lose a battle most of time(i know same can be said of everyone in a balance group, but still)

This is actually true at all points of the game. A well-placed Grease or Sleep or Web can make a big difference in a big fight in the early game.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Iluvatar on November 07, 2015, 06:24:10 PM

Wizard and sorcerers stays behind all the time, they provide wards then get behind, cast a few spell, but otherwise they don't do much in a battle.


Mostly true at lower levels, but once a wizard or sorc is around lvl 12-13, a player that knows what he is doing will be a huge asset in some fights. Try doing the last room of the Harvest Temple without a mage throwing fireballs around... you'll have a hard time!!!

Wizards and Sorcerers really start doing more in battles around those levels, but then, their power is exponential and they are the ones that can win a lose a battle most of time(i know same can be said of everyone in a balance group, but still)

True, spell caster are really useful and can be a great asset in a fight, though they still stay behind most of the time waiting for the good occasion to throw a spell. Sorcerer might throw more spells than wizard because they have more spell per day, but the fact remain that wizard and sorcerer don't get much action except the occasional spell they will cast
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: HellsPanda on November 08, 2015, 12:39:02 AM
Invest in a bow and hang back, if with a good group you will get some buffs and can do damage
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Exordium on November 08, 2015, 06:40:29 AM
It'd be pretty fun if wizards/sorcerers had some more often-usable minor abilities.. I feel Pillars of Eternity did its thing excellently in this regard. But yea, this is NWN and DnD 3.5. And a bit off-topic, too. :P

Quote
I'm having to sacrifice roleplay just to keep up.

And this, if you really have because to sacrifice Roleplay to keep up with other, then maybe you should try hanging with other people who level at rate closer to your. There is no point in playing a Roleplay game if you never get the chance to Roleplay  :)

I do see some validity in the above claim. There's a pretty big difference in the leveling paces of people, and you kind of have to join up in the megagroups now and then even if you didn't want to and occasionally forgo your character's opinions if you want to keep up the average pace, 'less you solo well or have a frequently playing existing group of pals who can take on big challenges.

When one lags behind, it's easy to tell them that they ought to then just play with different people, but we don't have thousands of players to pick your pals from. We've from 10 to 60 players online at any time; There's only so much wiggling space there if you don't want to lag behind in their overall average leveling pace.

I personally continue to maintain that a slower leveling pace would give less incentive for people to make choices based solely on how much XP they will be getting. However, I wouldn't want to slow down the pace of leveling of those who now are "uncapped" or at slight "positive cap", because leveling up for those players already takes a reasonable time, I feel.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Lucadia on November 08, 2015, 08:56:47 AM
Id point out that if your having sacrafice rp to keep up, then perhaps the others are more interested in leveling first, then rping. So short of giving /more/ exp for rping based on your own cap . .
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 08, 2015, 03:59:57 PM
I personally continue to maintain that a slower leveling pace would give less incentive for people to make choices based solely on how much XP they will be getting.

I'm inclined to disagree with you on that. I don't believe that any amount of throttling of the leveling pace will stop people who want to gain xp and level over everything else from finding the best way of doing so and capitalizing on it. It might slow them down, sure. But if that's what someone wants to do with their game time that's what they're gonna do with it ya know?

Similarly, if less rp xp was given, do you think the people that play purely for the rp of the game would rp any less? Or if it was harder to make gold the people who like to become absurdly wealthy wouldn't still find the best way to make gold and make as much as they could off it?
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DrXavierTColtrane on November 08, 2015, 05:18:11 PM
Given Powergamer, who is motivated purely by XP/levelling.

Given Socializer, who is motivated purely by roleplay.

Reducing the XP for both activities affects *only* Powergamer's motivation. Socializer is unaffected.

If Powergamer was motivated purely by *adventuring* (liking to kill monsters, say) rather than XP/levelling, then the two would be equivalent, but as stipulated, they're not.

I agree that "people who want to gain xp and level over everything else" will find how to do that. Hence, capping adventuring XP pushes powergamers toward power roleplaying.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Iluvatar on November 08, 2015, 05:36:46 PM
capping adventuring XP pushes powergamers toward power roleplaying.

Define what you mean by power roleplaying....

There isn't any way to power roleplay in my opinion, roleplay is roleplay and the first objective to playing this game is roleplaying. Perhaps one they hit cap adventuring XP some people will go make RP xp by roleplaying until they can do adventuring XP again at a good pace. But isn't that the goal to find way to make people RP more?

I think even if some people tries to "power roleplay", which isn't really possible in my opinion, the goal would still have been reached because more people would spend time roleplaying.

Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Time_Stomped on November 08, 2015, 05:46:05 PM
I see plenty of people sitting around chatting, so I don't think people are in that much of a hurry to clear every dungeon imaginable.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: EO on November 08, 2015, 06:06:13 PM
Given Powergamer, who is motivated purely by XP/levelling.

Given Socializer, who is motivated purely by roleplay.

Reducing the XP for both activities affects *only* Powergamer's motivation. Socializer is unaffected.

If Powergamer was motivated purely by *adventuring* (liking to kill monsters, say) rather than XP/levelling, then the two would be equivalent, but as stipulated, they're not.

I agree that "people who want to gain xp and level over everything else" will find how to do that. Hence, capping adventuring XP pushes powergamers toward power roleplaying.

Actually, that won't have any impact. You may halve the gains or double them, in the end some will always be ahead of the curve. And people grind to be ahead of the curve. Of course, if you had no loot and no XP, then yes people wouldn't adventure but that wouldn't be DnD anymore.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DrXavierTColtrane on November 08, 2015, 07:18:12 PM
Actually, that won't have any impact. You may halve the gains or double them, in the end some will always be ahead of the curve. And people grind to be ahead of the curve. Of course, if you had no loot and no XP, then yes people wouldn't adventure but that wouldn't be DnD anymore.

I don't follow what you're saying here at all.

If a player is motivated exclusively by levelling fast and XP gain (which is how Powergamer was defined), then if one activity is capped and another is not, they have no choice when at cap but to go to the other activity. Or they will fall "behind the curve" of those who hit cap and do go to the other activity.

Assume two parallel roads. One allows travel at 100 mph, the other at only 30.

Three drivers: Power Driver likes to get to the next destination (Leveltown) as quickly as possible, Speedy likes to drive fast (and create roadkill).  Granny likes to take it easy and smell the Vistani Tears.

Speedy takes the 100 mph highway. Granny takes the 30.

Along comes the XP Cap Construction Company and puts up a temporary road block on the 100 mph highway. Power Driver has been whistling alongside of Speedy, but now both are stopped. Speedy sits behind the wheel steaming because the other road is for loser Grannies. Power Driver, though, doesn't care. He just wants to get to Leveltown. If he goes over to the other highway, he will continue moving and get ahead of Speedy.

That's what I understand the intent of the XP cap to be and why it doesn't apply to roleplay. Are the mechanics of it different then?
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Arawn on November 08, 2015, 07:33:52 PM
Quote
If a player is motivated exclusively by levelling fast and XP gain (which is how Powergamer was defined), then if one activity is capped and another is not, they have no choice when at cap but to go to the other activity. Or they will fall "behind the curve" of those who hit cap and do go to the other activity.

Not quite. No matter how capped you are, you still gain XP. Do that enough, and you'll pass those who only RP. If we reduced XP over cap to the point where it was less than the equivalent amount of RP XP, we'd just be forcing one play-style on our playerbase. As it is, we incentivize RP but do not mandate it.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on November 08, 2015, 08:06:36 PM
Quote
If a player is motivated exclusively by levelling fast and XP gain (which is how Powergamer was defined), then if one activity is capped and another is not, they have no choice when at cap but to go to the other activity. Or they will fall "behind the curve" of those who hit cap and do go to the other activity.

Not quite. No matter how capped you are, you still gain XP. Do that enough, and you'll pass those who only RP. If we reduced XP over cap to the point where it was less than the equivalent amount of RP XP, we'd just be forcing one play-style on our playerbase. As it is, we incentivize RP but do not mandate it.

Yup! The Blackleaf clan is the perfect example of this. We were all a bunch of ECL +2/3 characters who were on blind drive from creation and we kept on going. We also had a ton of great RP, so who cares how fast or slow we leveled?
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Exordium on November 09, 2015, 05:15:09 AM
I personally continue to maintain that a slower leveling pace would give less incentive for people to make choices based solely on how much XP they will be getting.

I'm inclined to disagree with you on that. I don't believe that any amount of throttling of the leveling pace will stop people who want to gain xp and level over everything else from finding the best way of doing so and capitalizing on it. It might slow them down, sure. But if that's what someone wants to do with their game time that's what they're gonna do with it ya know?

Similarly, if less rp xp was given, do you think the people that play purely for the rp of the game would rp any less? Or if it was harder to make gold the people who like to become absurdly wealthy wouldn't still find the best way to make gold and make as much as they could off it?

Well, you're right in that some people will always try to place XP before anything else. And in the end - that's okay, as long as they play by the rules.

However, there's a large grey ground between the extremes of "always puts XP before anything else" and "never thinks of XP at all". I'd claim that most players are roughly in the middle of those two extremes; Perhaps even slightly towards the "never thinks of XP at all" end of the spectrum.

All the game mechanical systems cater to this middle ground from the XP cap to Exhaustion to needing to eat to regain more health by resting. People bent on not RP'ing these things can never be forced to RP them, and people bent to RP'ing all the nuances of their characters would RP them anyway. But for the people in the middle of this spectrum of the two extremes, we give incentive to do things in a way which - at least so we hope - increases the immersion for everyone.

When I'm talking about giving less incentive to push XP before other things, I'm not talking about stopping the people bent on maximizing their XP-per-playing-hour. I'm talking about pushing the people in the middle of these two extremes to put other things before XP just slightly more often. I'm talking about giving a few people more the push to go and think "Wait, would my character actually do this, or am I just doing this for the XP of it?" and I'm talking about slightly prolonging the time spent in roughly the same levels for those who dungeon several times a day and those who do not.

In no way is there anything catastrophic in the current situation, nor would I want to make dungeoneering an unrewarding experience. I merely think that a slight adjustment to making the cap stronger at lower levels would be nice, without slowing down the current leveling pace of those who are already slightly behind the average pace.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Lucadia on November 09, 2015, 01:34:33 PM
Exordium, Im fairly sure that the cap /has/ already been made stronger at lower levels. I cant say I care for it. Its a huge investment to get past lv 10. I say most of my vault stopped around lv 12 after a few months. In average, I could get to 9 in a few weeks, prior to this change, but the same estimate to get to 12 never changed.

Its different now at being capped in exp by 2-3 levels earlier now.

I dont know about you, but I find lv 7-9 somewhere in the best range, as your neither over powering the low levels when you are with them nor useless when you join a higher group. The rp can reflect that too. A middle ground.

just my opinion though.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: EO on November 09, 2015, 08:22:13 PM
Quote
Exordium, Im fairly sure that the cap /has/ already been made stronger at lower levels. I cant say I care for it. Its a huge investment to get past lv 10. I say most of my vault stopped around lv 12 after a few months. In average, I could get to 9 in a few weeks, prior to this change, but the same estimate to get to 12 never changed.

I've asked Soren this morning and he confirmed he had made no changes to the XP progression nor the cap.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Crimson Shuriken on November 09, 2015, 09:03:19 PM
This is just anecdotal of course, but this is the 3rd or 4th time I have participated in NCE and all of my pcs were between 5-7 at the end of the event. That dates back to the very first NCE, so if the cap has changed I have never noticed it at all.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Syl on November 10, 2015, 08:41:19 AM
Again the only way you cap fast is 1 of 2 ways... A:.. your doing dungeons higher level then you are on a very high spawn very frequently, thus throwing you at the wall faster... and B: Going to DM events.. Since I believe DM exp is the same as Combat EXP. Might need a DM to clerifiy.. could be wrong on that.

and again. I've gotton some characters to level 6 NCE just fine.. Once you find a happy medium you level at a steady pace... Most people again are all.. Dungeon dungeon dungeon.. Event event event....RP....which pushes them to a wall So fast. but if you truly care for just dungeoning.. Hey no biggy I enjoy them as much as the next guy/gal.  My first character was probably on blind drive for most of her life just as the blackleaf.. But that's because RP wise she always pushed herself ot be stronger... I just ignored the Wall and when it came to me saying HEY slow down!... I just took out a sledge hammer and bashed that wall down!! Also.. If you want to RP with friends but your behind the curve.. WHo the fudge cares? GO RP with them.. if they are true friends IG they will probably keep you alive through the nightmare. and you can still RP with them. Just because the EXP wall is there suggesting to slow down.. does NOT... mean you have to listen to it.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Iluvatar on November 10, 2015, 06:08:59 PM
Going to DM events.. Since I believe DM exp is the same as Combat EXP. Might need a DM to clerifiy.. could be wrong on that.

I don't think DM xp count in reaching the cap, I say this because my NCE guard got lvl 4 with mostly DM xp since I didn't dungeon or anything with him and with the cap message it gives after resting it's as if I haven't done dungeon... but I might be wrong too since I got that DM xp on many different occasion and it was also during a period of two weeks so...  :P
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: EO on November 10, 2015, 06:10:01 PM
Going to DM events.. Since I believe DM exp is the same as Combat EXP. Might need a DM to clerifiy.. could be wrong on that.

I don't think DM xp count in reaching the cap, I say this because my NCE guard got lvl 4 with mostly DM xp since I didn't dungeon or anything with him and with the cap message it gives after resting it's as if I haven't done dungeon... but I might be wrong too since I got that DM xp on many different occasion and it was also during a period of two weeks so...  :P


DM XP counts towards the cap. You can get capped through DM XP (which was the case for my first PC who relied almost exclusively on DM XP to get to level 20).
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Vasile on November 10, 2015, 07:06:09 PM
Going to DM events.. Since I believe DM exp is the same as Combat EXP. Might need a DM to clerifiy.. could be wrong on that.

I don't think DM xp count in reaching the cap, I say this because my NCE guard got lvl 4 with mostly DM xp since I didn't dungeon or anything with him and with the cap message it gives after resting it's as if I haven't done dungeon... but I might be wrong too since I got that DM xp on many different occasion and it was also during a period of two weeks so...  :P


DM XP counts towards the cap. You can get capped through DM XP (which was the case for my first PC who relied almost exclusively on DM XP to get to level 20).

We wouldn't be talking about the dreaded Marcus would we.. I think I got the name right.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Iluvatar on November 10, 2015, 07:54:01 PM
Going to DM events.. Since I believe DM exp is the same as Combat EXP. Might need a DM to clerifiy.. could be wrong on that.

I don't think DM xp count in reaching the cap, I say this because my NCE guard got lvl 4 with mostly DM xp since I didn't dungeon or anything with him and with the cap message it gives after resting it's as if I haven't done dungeon... but I might be wrong too since I got that DM xp on many different occasion and it was also during a period of two weeks so...  :P

DM XP counts towards the cap. You can get capped through DM XP (which was the case for my first PC who relied almost exclusively on DM XP to get to level 20).

Ah  :P I don't know why, but I had that feeling I was wrong, but wasn't sure  :)
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Time_Stomped on November 10, 2015, 09:45:40 PM
I wish there was an option for faster, to be honest.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Iluvatar on November 11, 2015, 08:45:02 AM
I wish there was an option for faster, to be honest.

I used to think the same when I first arrived here, I though the progression was too slow and wished it was faster, but after joining a faction and roleplaying more with other player my point of view changed. Leveling fast and quick and getting tones of XP became secondary.

I found out it was much more fun to RP then dungeon to farm XP. It took me about 5 month, but I raised a character all the way up to lvl 10.

All of this to say that once you'll find a group you really like and make a character and succeed to get his story move at a satisfying rate, you'll quickly forget about XP and you even won't feel the need to be high level at all. At least that's what happened to me and I enjoy this game much more than I did before now that I don't focus much on XP anymore. :)
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Honoun on November 11, 2015, 11:02:06 AM
Can I ask a DM to level up one my charactes to level 20 just so I can say I have one  :P
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DrXavierTColtrane on November 11, 2015, 11:49:35 AM
Yes.

You can ask.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Syl on November 11, 2015, 12:23:28 PM
Does not mean it will happen lol unless you got like 3 dark powers and were on a one life rule.. as well as wanted by everything under the sun and moon because your soul or blood is now fabled and a key component to curing cancer.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Niffie on November 12, 2015, 03:49:51 PM
How long does the "blind drive" usually stay? As in, for how long would one have to stay inactive in adventuring approximately? Anyone know? ^^
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FinalHeaven on November 12, 2015, 04:01:56 PM
How long does the "blind drive" usually stay? As in, for long would one have to stay inactive in adventuring approximately? Anyone know? ^^

Two weeks if I remember right.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Iluvatar on November 12, 2015, 04:31:25 PM
How long does the "blind drive" usually stay? As in, for long would one have to stay inactive in adventuring approximately? Anyone know? ^^

Two weeks if I remember right.

Two weeks... I think that's a bit long, each time I have hit blind drive it took only like 4 - 5 of being inactive to get of blind drive if it's not less.

Two weeks is far from being the real number.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Niffie on November 12, 2015, 05:47:29 PM
Two weeks... I think that's a bit long, each time I have hit blind drive it took only like 4 - 5 of being inactive to get of blind drive if it's not less.

Two weeks is far from being the real number.

4-5 days? That's a bit long too o.O
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Iluvatar on November 12, 2015, 06:36:59 PM
Two weeks... I think that's a bit long, each time I have hit blind drive it took only like 4 - 5 of being inactive to get of blind drive if it's not less.

Two weeks is far from being the real number.

4-5 days? That's a bit long too o.O

Yeah I think it's long as well... but I've been blind drive so rarely that it's hard to say how long it really takes to get out of it, but yeah... 4-5 day might be a bit long as well lol
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 12, 2015, 08:18:00 PM
I've noticed blind drive taking longer to go away the longer I do things to gain xp (besides rp) while I'm already on it. If I stop as soon as I hit it, a few days tops. If I just ignore it for a long time, it can take about 2 weeks just to get off it-and if you start right back up again as soon as it's gone you'll hit it again sooner. Just from my experience
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: julienchab on November 16, 2015, 04:41:51 PM
Just an idea that crossed my mind earlier when I was doing the Terg ruins at lvl 7 and getting almost no xp for it. I was told some dungeons around vallaki had their XP given tuned down. Dunno if a developper could confirm. If lower levels dungeons are giving less xp, it could be a reason why players are feeling they are leveling less faster then before.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Syl on November 17, 2015, 08:24:28 AM
Just an idea that crossed my mind earlier when I was doing the Terg ruins at lvl 7 and getting almost no xp for it. I was told some dungeons around vallaki had their XP given tuned down. Dunno if a developper could confirm. If lower levels dungeons are giving less xp, it could be a reason why players are feeling they are leveling less faster then before.

My only questons for this are... A: what was the spawn looking like.

And B: how many were there.

Because at a very minimum spawn like lowest of low, you are hardly going to get any exp if any at all.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: julienchab on November 17, 2015, 08:30:04 AM
Just an idea that crossed my mind earlier when I was doing the Terg ruins at lvl 7 and getting almost no xp for it. I was told some dungeons around vallaki had their XP given tuned down. Dunno if a developper could confirm. If lower levels dungeons are giving less xp, it could be a reason why players are feeling they are leveling less faster then before.

My only questons for this are... A: what was the spawn looking like.

And B: how many were there.

Because at a very minimum spawn like lowest of low, you are hardly going to get any exp if any at all.

It was almost max spawn and I was level 7. We were a group of 6
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Syl on November 17, 2015, 09:10:34 AM
Just an idea that crossed my mind earlier when I was doing the Terg ruins at lvl 7 and getting almost no xp for it. I was told some dungeons around vallaki had their XP given tuned down. Dunno if a developper could confirm. If lower levels dungeons are giving less xp, it could be a reason why players are feeling they are leveling less faster then before.

My only questons for this are... A: what was the spawn looking like.

And B: how many were there.

Because at a very minimum spawn like lowest of low, you are hardly going to get any exp if any at all.

It was almost max spawn and I was level 7. We were a group of 6

then either someone was to high level.. Or the things you were near were not high enough to give exp to a lvl 7 [shrugs]
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Niffie on November 17, 2015, 12:19:50 PM
Just an idea that crossed my mind earlier when I was doing the Terg ruins at lvl 7 and getting almost no xp for it. I was told some dungeons around vallaki had their XP given tuned down. Dunno if a developper could confirm. If lower levels dungeons are giving less xp, it could be a reason why players are feeling they are leveling less faster then before.

My only questons for this are... A: what was the spawn looking like.

And B: how many were there.

Because at a very minimum spawn like lowest of low, you are hardly going to get any exp if any at all.

It was almost max spawn and I was level 7. We were a group of 6

then either someone was to high level.. Or the things you were near were not high enough to give exp to a lvl 7 [shrugs]

Actually we had a level 10 cleric in the group. That might have been why.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Syl on November 17, 2015, 12:36:02 PM
No... that shouldn't be the reason..[shrugs] Not sure then.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: LivingWasteland on November 20, 2015, 04:33:22 AM
Just adding my two cents on xp gain this NCW.


The last two NCW's I partook in, Luminita ended the week at level 8. I played a higher than average amount.

My PC the NCW before this one ended almost to 7 playing an average amount of time.

My PC this NCW is still 4, possibly close to 5, also playing an average amount of time.

There definitely seemed to be something up with the cap. I just rolled with it. I didn't see this topic until now.

Onto other things debated, I now work a job that takes roughly 150+ hours of my time a week. I don't have the time to play that I used to. That makes being involved in any plots difficult. It makes aiming for the PrC I'd like near impossible. It also makes progression extremely difficult. While I know it isn't the intent, and I do appreciate the XP system making things go slower, I feel that perhaps it's a little too slow. It makes keeping up with your IC friends extremely difficult.

Yes, it's been said 'make some new IC friends'. But, as it was already pointed out, there is a limited number of people on at any given time, of varying levels from extremely low, to extremely high. This isn't World of Warcraft. You can't just jump into a group of same-level people and go from there. With there only being 10-60 people on at any given time, the server being as large as it is, it's illogical to expect there to always be people of similar level to do anything with, doubly so given that people are spread out so widely given the aforementioned size. And with the difficulty curve of the server -requiring- a varied party (At the very least, a meatshield, a buffbot, and a lockpick) for mid-level and up dungeons to be successful, that's stretching things even tighter, making it even more difficult to get anything done.

I find myself standing around the outskirts RPing most of the time. I enjoy the RP. I enjoy the people I RP with. I love you guys, and you're great. But this is Dungeons and Dragons. I want RP and adventure in equal measure. And I feel some things in place make having an equal measure more than a little difficult. I feel though, that when you get to level 10-12, you're a well balanced character and more capable of surviving harder things with the higher levels, while still being able to enjoy time with the lower levels.

I understand some people think the lower levels provide the most. Others dislike the lower levels because they hate feeling absolutely useless and that they'll die if they sneeze too hard.

My suggestion, as I feel it's silly to have a complaint without a solution, is as follows:

Add an XP adjustment tool, effective to a certain level. That way people can get to the level range as fast or as slow as they prefer, and even stay there, without giving everone a level 16-20 destroyer of worlds. Example:

Levels 1-5:
+75%
+50%
+25%
-25%
-50%
-75%
OFF

With that as a base, you remove the higher value. At level 6, you can only gain 50% more. At 7, 25%. At 8, no more increased gain. You can still choose to gain it slower, or turn it off however. 8 seems to be a good, fair level where you aren't dying to mink bites and you have access to some neat features of your class, and you're not cut off from as many people level-wise. Every PC I've had, around level 8 is when I've started feeling like I wasn't a liability and had just enough going for me to hold my own in parties of varying levels. This feeling is the same for every class I've played except maybe monk, but that's a discussion for another day and another thread. With an option like this, it lets people advance at a pace that they, as a player, are more happy with. This feels like a good compromise in the middle since there seems to be a wide division of people saying 'We like low levels, slow is good!' and 'We hate feeling useless, faster is better'.


TL:DR

XP gain seems reduced.
Limited players.
Finding new friends is not always possible for above reason.
Dungeoning gets progressively harder, requiring more diverse parties. Increases difficulty more fore above reasons.
Mid-level seems to be the 'best' all-around levels for spending time with more people, and actually being useful.
Give XP adjustment up to a certain level based on a player's personal preference.

Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Merry Munchkin on November 20, 2015, 06:45:56 PM
The last NCW from the previous year, my character ended up at level 7.  This NCE, my character ended up at level 6, almost to level 7 (he is at the "trivial" message).  I probably played about the same amount of time for both.  As a consequence, I am not sure if there really is a nerf to the xp gain or not.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 20, 2015, 06:56:59 PM
Hard to say I guess. My first NCE I got quite a ways through lvl 8, but I had all the time in the world, was involved in lots of DM events and rp'd/dungeoned a lot.

Second one I nearly hit 8, with the same things applying.

This one I nearly hit 7 but with significantly less play time, though I think I might have gained more rp and dm xp than either of the other two
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DrXavierTColtrane on November 20, 2015, 07:14:41 PM
Why is XP gain so opaque anyway?

I think there would be far fewer questions (and perhaps complaints) if we could actually see it happening. Likewise, the recent bug when re-levelling would have been detected immediately instead of having a chance to affect more characters.

Frequently on the forums I see the adage "trust the player base," but the often-cited-as-contradictory rest messages rather than straightforward numbers evidence that ultimately the admins do *not* trust the player base. Or why is this so obscure?

Personally, I don't much care because that's the way it was when I got here, and it's been that way for years, and if everyone else is happy with it, I'm not trying to start a quixotic crusade. I simply don't see the purpose other than creating doubt in players' minds.

By the way, crafting gives out erroneous messages, which I can verify. So that makes me doubtful that all the regular XP gain messages are on the up and up.

For example, if you craft a potion with a DC below your current level, you don't get any XP--which is how I think it's supposed to work. But you will still get the message that you have gained XP in your craft. If, however, you compare the actual number before and after, you can verify that you did not get XP.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: MJ_Johansson on November 20, 2015, 09:45:47 PM
While I dont know the scripting behind the XP system, it seems to work fine as it is. The rest message pretty accurately follows what I've been up to, so I dont think there's any lost XP that way.

I kind of like the mystery of not knowing exactly when I'll get the level, it makes it sweeter when I do get those blue sparkles in the corner this way, and being unable to plan exactly how many warewolves you have to bonk before you level means you just have to play and it'll happen when it happens.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 20, 2015, 09:55:03 PM
Yeah, honestly not having your exact xp gain tracked at all times is sort of liberating, for me anyway xD

I'm sure there's people that can have it tracked and not ever pay attention to it, but when I have the numbers right there in front of me it's hard for me not to pay attention and that just gets me working things out in my head and then I'm no longer focused on what's happening around me, the rp and all that, but planning what exactly I need to do for how long to get the xp I want. It's no fun.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Ercvadasz on November 23, 2015, 04:12:22 PM
Dunno, i would say level progression is allright, actually i think some folks should slow down a bit, since they rob themselves from the experience.:)
On my very first char i pushed a lot for xp, found and learned a lot of thinks, thereafter I started to play way slower and it is most of the time way more fun!:)
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: DrXavierTColtrane on November 23, 2015, 04:59:06 PM
Yeah, honestly not having your exact xp gain tracked at all times is sort of liberating, for me anyway xD

I'm sure there's people that can have it tracked and not ever pay attention to it, but when I have the numbers right there in front of me it's hard for me not to pay attention and that just gets me working things out in my head and then I'm no longer focused on what's happening around me, the rp and all that, but planning what exactly I need to do for how long to get the xp I want. It's no fun.


I often turn the current feedback messages off for the opposite reason. That is, their overt suggestion that I have been wasting my time ("you have done close to nothing" or whatever it is) when I've spent a day crafting, for example. This is especially true when I've recently levelled up and am not interested in being harangued about "how will you ever master your new powers if you don't put them to use?" and "if you want to move on, blah-blah-blah."

Numbers are numbers, and that you think you would obsess over them, well, that's your choice. The messages seem much more judgmental and an intentional goad, but at least they can be toggled off, I suppose.
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: FlyingLotus on November 23, 2015, 05:10:24 PM
I mean.. Yeah-it's just an individual preference man.

You can turn off messages that get under your skin, I can play without being tempted to crunch numbers. Yay for us
Title: Re: Level progression
Post by: Jeebs on November 23, 2015, 05:19:45 PM
Yeah, honestly not having your exact xp gain tracked at all times is sort of liberating, for me anyway xD

I'm sure there's people that can have it tracked and not ever pay attention to it, but when I have the numbers right there in front of me it's hard for me not to pay attention and that just gets me working things out in my head and then I'm no longer focused on what's happening around me, the rp and all that, but planning what exactly I need to do for how long to get the xp I want. It's no fun.


I often turn the current feedback messages off for the opposite reason. That is, their overt suggestion that I have been wasting my time ("you have done close to nothing" or whatever it is) when I've spent a day crafting, for example. This is especially true when I've recently levelled up and am not interested in being harangued about "how will you ever master your new powers if you don't put them to use?" and "if you want to move on, blah-blah-blah."

Numbers are numbers, and that you think you would obsess over them, well, that's your choice. The messages seem much more judgmental and an intentional goad, but at least they can be toggled off, I suppose.

I agree with Dante here, though I have to say I've never thought of turning off the feedback messages. In my case, I'd be doing it for the opposite reason, mind you. When I'm playing on Kith, it seems like the server starts trolling me. I'll be getting "close to mastery" messages for months and months on end. In the end, I don't mind that it takes a while to level, though there's something about seeing that message that irks me and makes me want to say "b/s I'm close to mastery!" Does turning off the feedback messages remove everything else though? I kind of like seeing the weather conditions and the time pop up.