Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: INSTINCT92 on November 30, 2014, 04:27:35 PM
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Like... from +6 or so reflex saves to +1 universal? Why? what? That's worth that xp how?
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Like... from +6 or so reflex saves to +1 universal? Why? what? That's worth that xp how?
+1
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+1
I just don't even...
Can I get my xp back? This is a bit absurd, I'd never give that xp for these things.
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I agree... will xp be refunded? When I lost 2+ levels enchanting awesome gear it was totally worth it... I would have NEVER even allowed half a level for what these items have now become.
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This nerf was frankly speaking a long time coming, if you don't think bonuses to specific saving throws upwards of +6 aren't overpowered... well, I don't really know what to tell you. Bonuses to universal saving throws are still extremely useful, as are the other bonuses on enchanted gear.
Giving up 2,000 XP in exchange for +6 fort saves is a no-brainer and everyone with good sense would make that "sacrifice" if they were given the chance. It made most people's saving throws extremely high, so high that DMs couldn't balance encounters correctly. You either make it too easy or you steamroll the party.
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My boots went from Reflex save to Cold save... that is a completely different thing.
The Enchanted Thick Chitin Full Plate reports
+1 AC Blunt
+1 AC Slash
+4 AC Piercing
+3 AC vs All.
The first two are redundant.
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So this response is suppose to smooth everything out for those of us who've been effected by these "nerfs"? Because the enchanting system just basically became useless.
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I think it's too far the other way, sadly. Why not a +3? That's half the six but still has some worth. This threatens to negate people's desire to buy player crafted items, something that is not easy to learn and requires an investment of time, money and resources. It's just not worth the investment at all. Sweeten it a little more and it might become a viable choice.
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This nerf was frankly speaking a long time coming, if you don't think bonuses to specific saving throws upwards of +6 aren't overpowered... well, I don't really know what to tell you.
I shall miss my might reflex boots, but I'm gonna have to agree with Venge on this. Certain items gave GIANT save boosts to an almost insane level for such a low exp cost.
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And this may be true, but everyone who has paid gold/xp just did so for nothing, because I can nearly guarantee that those of us who did would definitely not have if we'd have known that the current items would be the end product.
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The enchanting system hasn't really become useless. Some folks used it to up the save they really wanted... for those rogue fighter tanks 9/10 it was reflex for the evasion... I know for my rogue who had a crummy con I got the gargoyle... and had a 13 fortitude... Not really insanely high.. but for those with a natural high fort + I can see it getting very high.
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But it isn't what I chose to pay for, so I think you can at least understand the frustration no? Even if you still find what they've been turned in to to be worth it. I'm left with some things that cost me a great deal that are essentially worthless to me at this point. As has been pointed out, throws could have been halved, instead they're completely taken out or replaced with something like throws v acid +4 in place of fortitude throws-which doesn't even make sense because a save v acid is reflex not fortitude.
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The developers can tell you more, but from what I understand the changes were made because the high saves on certain items were due to a bug with the system that was never intended.
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I would like to point out, no one forced you all to enchant gear. The high saves were always clearly an oversight giving how broken they can be, but personally? I feel like this is in response to the "roll 1, auto fail' thread as the saves have been brought up in that.
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I would like to point out, no one forced you all to enchant gear. The high saves were always clearly an oversight giving how broken they can be, but personally? I feel like this is in response to the "roll 1, auto fail' thread as the saves have been brought up in that.
I am lucky in that I only have one piece of enchanted gear, so I am not affected so badly. As for no one forcing, I am pretty sure that the difficulty in many areas of the server certainly swayed many people. It's just another place I am seeing people who are being well-prepared being kicked in the face. Yes, the +6 was OP, but the +1 isn't worth the cost. I am asking that we meet a compromise, or it might take the crafting systems out too.
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Oh no Mcnastea I understand the frustration... But let me put it this way.. My fighter Sylvonas had the reflex boots.... with them on I had a 23 reflex....that's rather absurd. Am I botherd that I may have to find some new boots... meh maybe... but for now I can't complain since they still gives the 6 disc. For those who only payed for the gear to up the saves to some ungodly number... we paid the price... And if the insane saves were due to a bug. Then who knows. the items might be fix and instead of a +9 reflex... you will get like a +4 reflex.... grant it the winterwolf boots cost 9k if I remember.. most expencive set out there.
gargoyle... for 2k and +6 fort.... yeah... a bit much.
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I would like to point out, no one forced you all to enchant gear. The high saves were always clearly an oversight giving how broken they can be, but personally? I feel like this is in response to the "roll 1, auto fail' thread as the saves have been brought up in that.
Of course nobody was forced, however the point is that the items we initially paid for with gold and xp are not what we now have. That is where the frustration is coming from. There could've been some sort of happy medium to be made where the power level of the items was decreased, but not to the point of making them utterly useless.
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This....frankly sucks. I really don't even know what to do now. This also doesn't address the real problems with the server, and now you have an angry player base. Why? Because a few people with op characters said they have insanely high buffs. Where as my awesome character still struggles even at his level and with enchanted gear. So idk... I feel like i've wasted time, rp, and the fun has been sucked out.
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I can certainly empathize with the bait-and-switch feeling for those who paid full price for something that turned out to be half the value. Perhaps it would have been nice to have a "trade in" event where players could exchange their old gear for some xp refund.
Nevertheless, I'm not sure if this warrants much rending of hair, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, just because the server perpetually generates an infinite amount of replacement xp and gold, so everything that is spent can be recouped -- it really is all about the investment of time, rather than resources.
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+6? Yes, too much.
+1? No, that's not a fair compromise for gold/xp paid, especially when you account the fact that nobody really seemed to know this +6 was a bug.
Guess I'll be extending my break a while longer.
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I can certainly empathize with the bait-and-switch feeling for those who paid full price for something that turned out to be half the value. Perhaps it would have been nice to have a "trade in" event where players could exchange their old gear for some xp refund.
Nevertheless, I'm not sure if this warrants much rending of hair, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, just because the server perpetually generates an infinite amount of replacement xp and gold, so everything that is spent can be recouped -- it really is all about the investment of time, rather than resources.
It happens automatically on log in. I am very, very bitter. I feel like just a couple of well built people with loud mouths proclaiming things are overpowered just killed it for the rest of us averagely built characters who struggle. And it still doesn't address the fact that the SPAWNS ARE THE PROBLEM
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Really, everyone should be happy they haven't touched the weapons. The enchanted gear is a bummer because, well, loot drops can out do them at times yet that's not a problem. Majority of the crafts can be out done by dungeon loot, making those crafts useless.
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I don't think it was a bug. It been a choice, they probably realized it was a mistake.
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I don't think it was a bug. It been a choice, they probably realized it was a mistake.
Giving the tailoring bug when it was first introduced, yeah. I feel the same way.
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The comment about it being a bug is in regards to Mephisto's post on the first page.
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I suppose, at this point, I'm grateful to have found another server which avoids these things.
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I can certainly empathize with the bait-and-switch feeling for those who paid full price for something that turned out to be half the value. Perhaps it would have been nice to have a "trade in" event where players could exchange their old gear for some xp refund.
Nevertheless, I'm not sure if this warrants much rending of hair, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, just because the server perpetually generates an infinite amount of replacement xp and gold, so everything that is spent can be recouped -- it really is all about the investment of time, rather than resources.
It happens automatically on log in. I am very, very bitter. I feel like just a couple of well built people with loud mouths proclaiming things are overpowered just killed it for the rest of us averagely built characters who struggle. And it still doesn't address the fact that the SPAWNS ARE THE PROBLEM
The change may occur automatically, but you could still run a "trade in" event -- just hold a three-day period (or whatever duration people wish) and folks can bring in whatever they crafted that got nerfed, and exchange it (if they want to) for a partial "refund" on xp. Once the event is over, no further trade ins would be allowed.
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I would like to point out, no one forced you all to enchant gear. The high saves were always clearly an oversight giving how broken they can be, but personally? I feel like this is in response to the "roll 1, auto fail' thread as the saves have been brought up in that.
Of course nobody was forced, however the point is that the items we initially paid for with gold and xp are not what we now have. That is where the frustration is coming from. There could've been some sort of happy medium to be made where the power level of the items was decreased, but not to the point of making them utterly useless.
Yup. This is a game, no one forces us to do anything. But I don't see why it's unreasonable to expect what you pay for to be what it is and not turn in to something entirely different. Enchanting something, even when it's 2,000 xp instead of oh say 16,000 (like some things), isn't a small investment. There's a lot of time reflected in 2,000 xp. These things could easily have been nerfed without turning them in to almost completely different items. They largely don't even serve the same function, so while there may be some enchanted gear still out there that I'd like, I'll need to figure out what it is and do it all over again.
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I can relate to frustration but come one folks we're mature here. complaining and whinning about it wont make it any different. So some items got lowered... yes if a lot of us knew what these stats were before we bought them yes none of us would have gotten them.. But the fact is we did.. and to say it was a lot of RP wasted in such... I can't agree there. I've enjoyed Rping ever last bit of getting my enchanted gear. down the the +3 acid boots. lol
and all I have to say when I read this at times and laugh is.
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/5b/5b7e0fdd39178dc8d4148618607fc96fb8908a1ea62c04119630f50f349c4ce1.jpg)
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A bit of a heads up might've been nice from staff members. Nothing like logging in to see that your gear is all ****ed =]
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I can understand the need to nerf the enchanted items to a degree. But if it was reduced to what I am reading then it seems like an utter waste of xp points. It will make people less likely to even use the system. It could be handled differently, lower the bonuses by half or some such.
With all the changes that are being made, some certainly needed, I've heard it said that people are starting to feel like this server is less geared towards story and becoming more and more a 'hardcore server'.
I love this server and I really do not want to see it loose its members, and it seems to me like things such as this are going to cause that.
I do understand why it was done, it had to be, the +6 was insane, so it was not balanced, but what I am reading isn't balanced either. It would be good to get some clarification on the exact reason this was done, along with what items are affected and how badly.
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Perhaps we could stop implying people are "complaining and whining" and accept the fact that people can have discussions on a forum?
These things could easily have been nerfed without turning them in to almost completely different items. They largely don't even serve the same function, so while there may be some enchanted gear still out there that I'd like, I'll need to figure out what it is and do it all over again.
This. Some of these changes don't make sense. And I'm not sure how +1 universal saves can possibly be considered a balanced nerf down from +6 reflex.
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I'm not debating whether or not some of the items were overpowered, but people have brought up some good points here. Not all of the items that were adjusted down were in the 2,000xp range. Some were in the 7,000-9,000xp range - that represents a lot of time lost on a server that limits XP as we do on PoTM. It's also true that people wouldn't have spent that much XP to create what we see now as the end product.
Most of these items have also been around a LONG time. Some characters have worked toward getting these enchanted items over the entire life of their character, so to have a 'bug' around that long and expect people not to be upset after something they worked 6-8 months to obtain is suddenly yanked and replaced by something much less, isn't realistic. I would also question how long these adjustments have been planned. I assume a little longer than this morning. In cases such as these, it might be helpful to post an update on the forums regarding the upcoming change instead of doing it suddenly and with no warning. That would allow players who are in the process of enchanting these items or purchasing them to make a more informed decision. It would also give players the opportunity to provide some feedback on something that effects them so directly, prior to the change taking place.
I would warn against anyone presenting the 'just deal with it' attitude so much on the forums. I recently brought up a period about a year ago where we saw a sharp decline in the player base. This was shortly after several adjustments to spells and items took place. A lot of players were unhappy with the results and took to the forums, receiving a similar response. Specifically in relation to some of the spell changes - there were some responses from the staff along the lines of 'be happy about this, or it can be made worse.' A lot of veteran players left at the time, feeling like the server was too punishing and that their feedback wasn't being taken seriously or into consideration at all.
Overall, I understand that some changes need to be made from time to time which are going to be viewed as negative - to help maintain balances on the server. I think the problem we've seen with players becoming so angry is with the execution of these changes and the reaction to the feedback. If people feel that most of the changes are negative and they don't have a legitimate place to voice their opinions where they'll be taken seriously, we're going to have another drop in the player base (I've already heard the grumblings).
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Who remembers when there was no enchanting system? Oh god the horror, how did we ever manage to level at all without +8 reflex boots when +1ab weapons and saves gear were the stuff of rumours and not found in every garbage pile!? And this is coming from someone who just lost 5 fortitude on the only 2 PC's I have with enchanted boots whose worst save happens to be fortitude. Quite a lot here I know for a fact paid gold for their enchanted gear rather than their own XP or had it handed it to them anyway.
I think the ones with the legitimate "I've been cheated" complaint are those who put the time and effort into getting the reagents, turning them into essences, getting their crafted item of choice made and used their own XP to make it. I am not going to complain about this change as I feel it rounds down the power of PC's a little more to allow them to be affected by such rp devices as madness and horror checks.
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I wouldn't mind bonuses to specific saving throws at values like +3 or +4 instead of +6. But that's not my decision, it's one made by the developers. I am just telling you all why enchanted gear and it's overwhelming power was frustrating to me as a DM, something I shared with the developers when they were discussing it.
As for those of you who are talking about taking an extended break because of this, do what you feel is necessary. But I don't think these knee-jerk reactions to the changes are beneficial in the least. If random numbers in a 10-year old video game are somehow upsetting to you, I suggest you take certain things into perspective, instead of flying off the handle and saying PotM's somehow ruined forever.
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I can understand the need to nerf the enchanted items to a degree. But if it was reduced to what I am reading then it seems like an utter waste of xp points. It will make people less likely to even use the system. It could be handled differently, lower the bonuses by half or some such.
With all the changes that are being made, some certainly needed, I've heard it said that people are starting to feel like this server is less geared towards story and becoming more and more a 'hardcore server'.
I love this server and I really do not want to see it loose its members, and it seems to me like things such as this are going to cause that.
I do understand why it was done, it had to be, the +6 was insane, so it was not balanced, but what I am reading isn't balanced either. It would be good to get some clarification on the exact reason this was done, along with what items are affected and how badly.
I agree with all of this. I love this server, I want the staff to be communicative, heck the whole community needs to be communicative, otherwise problems are left to fester and it causes poison in the community. Yes, the server is meant to be hard. It is. Yes, enchanted gear was too much, half the stats. This change is a slap in the face for a lot of people (I have been very lucky in that my gear is almost untouched and still serves the same functions).
People say make 1s a fail? Force people to prepare. That needs good casters and buffers. But other people think that magic is too plentiful and they get mad about that, even though the world is full of hidden magics. Beef up the spawns, more HP, more of them. That will increase the challenge without completely wrecking progress.
Enchanted gear comes at the OOC XP cost, but also with IC weight and gravitas. Getting a bit of enchanted gear is a big moment and can be a big thing in RP.
The server population is reduced at it is. I've noticed far fewer people adventuring because they lack what is needed to face the enemies. As such, the same people are being relied on to carry others through places. Those who buff well and such are being overworked because they are good at it, which I imagine makes them look like OOC-heavy dungeoning powergamers to many, when they are simply picking up the slack!
So yes, I will echo the point I made as have others. The enchanting nerf was too heavy. A change like this needed testing and pre-warning. Please be more careful with changes like this in future, lest alienation, confusion and a feeling of wasted time and energy cause the server population to dwindle further.
Who remembers when there was no enchanting system? Oh god the horror, how did we ever manage to level at all without +8 reflex boots when +1ab weapons and saves gear were the stuff of rumours and not found in every garbage pile!?
First, not everyone has been playing as long. Secondly, please spare us the hyperbole, there is a problem here, don't gloss over it with sarcasm.
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If random numbers in a 10-year old video game are somehow upsetting to you, I suggest you take certain things into perspective, instead of flying off the handle and saying PotM's somehow ruined forever.
My mind is actually blown that this is considered an acceptable statement. Coupled with the stifling ego in the OOC area I'm honestly confused as to why this server even has a discussion forum?
It's a real shame Mika's post seems to be ignored.
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question
I have enchanted silk. originally it was
+2 AC
+2 Universal Saving throws
+9 Infleunce
+9 Perform
now it's
+2 AC
+2 Universal Saving throws
+2 Perform
+6 perform
+2 Influence
+6 Influence.
What?
Same, Ren's robes are now +2/+6 for both Perform and Influence.
But I don't think these knee-jerk reactions to the changes are beneficial in the least.
Neither is making large changes without consulting or warning the playerbase.
I'm not debating whether or not some of the items were overpowered, but people have brought up some good points here. Not all of the items that were adjusted down were in the 2,000xp range. Some were in the 7,000-9,000xp range - that represents a lot of time lost on a server that limits XP as we do on PoTM. It's also true that people wouldn't have spent that much XP to create what we see now as the end product.
Most of these items have also been around a LONG time. Some characters have worked toward getting these enchanted items over the entire life of their character, so to have a 'bug' around that long and expect people not to be upset after something they worked 6-8 months to obtain is suddenly yanked and replaced by something much less, isn't realistic. I would also question how long these adjustments have been planned. I assume a little longer than this morning. In cases such as these, it might be helpful to post an update on the forums regarding the upcoming change instead of doing it suddenly and with no warning. That would allow players who are in the process of enchanting these items or purchasing them to make a more informed decision. It would also give players the opportunity to provide some feedback on something that effects them so directly, prior to the change taking place.
I would warn against anyone presenting the 'just deal with it' attitude so much on the forums. I recently brought up a period about a year ago where we saw a sharp decline in the player base. This was shortly after several adjustments to spells and items took place. A lot of players were unhappy with the results and took to the forums, receiving a similar response. Specifically in relation to some of the spell changes - there were some responses from the staff along the lines of 'be happy about this, or it can be made worse.' A lot of veteran players left at the time, feeling like the server was too punishing and that their feedback wasn't being taken seriously or into consideration at all.
Overall, I understand that some changes need to be made from time to time which are going to be viewed as negative - to help maintain balances on the server. I think the problem we've seen with players becoming so angry is with the execution of these changes and the reaction to the feedback. If people feel that most of the changes are negative and they don't have a legitimate place to voice their opinions where they'll be taken seriously, we're going to have another drop in the player base (I've already heard the grumblings).
Mika speaks wise words.
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Hey guys, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but let's please keep everything constructive and civil. Try to avoid rage posting, baiting and slinging passive aggressive remarks around. Doing so really serves no purpose other than to rile other folks up and foster negative feelings.
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I wouldn't mind bonuses to specific saving throws at values like +3 or +4 instead of +6. But that's not my decision, it's one made by the developers. I am just telling you all why enchanted gear and it's overwhelming power was frustrating to me as a DM, something I shared with the developers when they were discussing it.
As for those of you who are talking about taking an extended break because of this, do what you feel is necessary. But I don't think these knee-jerk reactions to the changes are beneficial in the least. If random numbers in a 10-year old video game are somehow upsetting to you, I suggest you take certain things into perspective, instead of flying off the handle and saying PotM's somehow ruined forever.
"Random" Numbers....? Have you read ANY of this thread?
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It's a real shame Mika's post seems to be ignored.
Thanks for reading it : D I knew I'd lose most people due to the length.
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I'm not debating whether or not some of the items were overpowered, but people have brought up some good points here. Not all of the items that were adjusted down were in the 2,000xp range. Some were in the 7,000-9,000xp range - that represents a lot of time lost on a server that limits XP as we do on PoTM. It's also true that people wouldn't have spent that much XP to create what we see now as the end product.
Most of these items have also been around a LONG time. Some characters have worked toward getting these enchanted items over the entire life of their character, so to have a 'bug' around that long and expect people not to be upset after something they worked 6-8 months to obtain is suddenly yanked and replaced by something much less, isn't realistic. I would also question how long these adjustments have been planned. I assume a little longer than this morning. In cases such as these, it might be helpful to post an update on the forums regarding the upcoming change instead of doing it suddenly and with no warning. That would allow players who are in the process of enchanting these items or purchasing them to make a more informed decision. It would also give players the opportunity to provide some feedback on something that effects them so directly, prior to the change taking place.
I would warn against anyone presenting the 'just deal with it' attitude so much on the forums. I recently brought up a period about a year ago where we saw a sharp decline in the player base. This was shortly after several adjustments to spells and items took place. A lot of players were unhappy with the results and took to the forums, receiving a similar response. Specifically in relation to some of the spell changes - there were some responses from the staff along the lines of 'be happy about this, or it can be made worse.' A lot of veteran players left at the time, feeling like the server was too punishing and that their feedback wasn't being taken seriously or into consideration at all.
Overall, I understand that some changes need to be made from time to time which are going to be viewed as negative - to help maintain balances on the server. I think the problem we've seen with players becoming so angry is with the execution of these changes and the reaction to the feedback. If people feel that most of the changes are negative and they don't have a legitimate place to voice their opinions where they'll be taken seriously, we're going to have another drop in the player base (I've already heard the grumblings).
This. People seem to forget something here, I have Run three servers and Built two of them. This is something to take a moment and read.
It's a real shame Mika's post seems to be ignored.
Thanks for reading it : D I knew I'd lose most people due to the length.
It isn't that long. People should read it.
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Hey guys, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but let's please keep everything constructive and civil. Try to avoid rage posting, baiting and slinging passive aggressive remarks around. Doing so really serves no purpose other than to rile other folks up and foster negative feelings.
The puckwolf is a wise creature.
As for my opinion, I'm glad this was done and I feel that while some people might be worried right now, it's going to be better for everyone in the long run. We could all benefit from taking a deep breath and approaching this with a much more civil tone. Trust your DM and Dev team, they put a lot of free volunteer hours into making the server a fun and awesome place to play. We should show respect for that. They are not trying to ruin anyone's experience here.
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I agree with Mika about acting like it's just whining for any of us to voice our opinion on the matter. Please don't be so condescending. If you don't care about the changes that's fine, but some people do and one function of the forum is to be able to talk about this sort of thing.
Also, I realize that someone took the time to do all of this. While I may have some opinions contrary to the result, I want to make it clear I do appreciate the work the dev team puts in.
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I've read the posts in this topic and I seriously don't understand the uproar. First of all, as Mephisto clarified, it was a bug. It took that long to fix it because no players felt the need to report the fact that they had boots or other items with saves absurdly high so the developers didn't know it occurred until it was reported by DMs following that Autofail topic. The values are what they were supposed to be initially now.
Secondly, this server has existed for about eight years without enchanted gear and people could dungeon. We haven't really tweaked anything else so us going more hardcore is a ridiculous complaint. If anything in the past year or two gear power (looted and crafted) has increased a lot; crafting has made it much easier for people to adventure and this is still the case, even with reduced enchanted gear.
If you're new to this server and all you knew was this system with bugged out enchanting then yes maybe you can feel we're going in some direction but we're not.
I agree that a topic informing the playerbase could have been useful but at the same time, whenever we do create these topics, there's an uproar before the change is even put into effect so I'm not sure what difference it would have made.
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Hey guys, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but let's please keep everything constructive and civil. Try to avoid rage posting, baiting and slinging passive aggressive remarks around. Doing so really serves no purpose other than to rile other folks up and foster negative feelings.
The puckwolf is a wise creature.
As for my opinion, I'm glad this was done and I feel that while some people might be worried right now, it's going to be better for everyone in the long run. We could all benefit from taking a deep breath and approaching this with a much more civil tone. Trust your DM and Dev team, they put a lot of free volunteer hours into making the server a fun and awesome place to play. We should show respect for that. They are not trying to ruin anyone's experience here.
+1.
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instead of flying off the handle and saying PotM's somehow ruined forever.
Venge is right, there's a thread for that! ;)
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It's a real shame Mika's post seems to be ignored.
Thanks for reading it : D I knew I'd lose most people due to the length.
I read it!.. I just suck at words we all know this
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Hey guys,
I am going to lock this thread for about an hour or two to let everyone cool down and think of calm, constructive responses. In that time, please do not make new threads, it will be re-opened and I'll let you all know.
Remember the golden rule, 'Be excellent to each-other' and its extension, 'party on dudes'!
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As EO said, this is not a nerf but a bug fix. If you want to blame someone, the most appropriate target would be those that discovered the gross inconsistencies and did not report it but chose to systematically exploit it.
The enchanted items will still be overall superior to anything you might ever hope to find elsewhere on the server. The gap is just more consistent now rather than in favor of the select combinations that were bugged.
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Hello folks,
This thread is unlocked.
Remember to keep it civil, constructive, and calm. Failure to abide by these terms may result in infractions. We don't want that, we actually want to hear you out, and there are some legitimate issues with the 'change' that need be reported by your feedback, such as the redundant AC and skills.
Proceed and have a nice day.
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To quote an earlier post in this topic:
My boots went from Reflex save to Cold save... that is a completely different thing.
Why didn't that make you ponder when it went the other way around? I.e. when the non-enchanted version had bonus to save vs. cold, but lost that when being enchanted?
That not a single person found that peculiar, especially considering how consistently procedurally the crafting system is set up, is to me a clear example of (and this is with me trying to assuming the best in people) collective ignorance by convenience.
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This thread is unlocked.
(It wasn't unlocked... I assume this was a misclick? I'm going to unlock it...)
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Let it be clear however, that we all do find it highly regrettable that the bug occurred in the first place. If it soothes your anger in any way, it is worth to point out that it's actually mainly due to a bug in a Bioware script, so ultimately the blame should be addressed at them. Still, it could of course just as well have been entirely our own mistake, but remember that our premise here (and why we still claim to be in BETA) is that you - the players - are our testers, and we rely wholly on your feedback.
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This thread is unlocked.
(It wasn't unlocked... I assume this was a misclick? I'm going to unlock it...)
Huh. Well if it wasn't, it is now.
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I agree that a topic informing the playerbase could have been useful but at the same time, whenever we do create these topics, there's an uproar before the change is even put into effect so I'm not sure what difference it would have made.
I haven't had a chance to get any enchanted gear, so I can't really give an opinion it, but I think it would've been nice if there was advance notice. You're right, the uproar happens either way, though it's less of a kick in the teeth, and more polite, when big changes are rolled out with some warning. People just get angrier when things change overnight and they haven't had a chance to sleep on it and plan in advance how to adjust for it.
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Well! I will say this, I wasnt aware the old system was a bug, and I probably enjoyed the gear too much to find out. However, I actually dont mind these changes. It'll take some time to readjust, but I think it'll be good in the long run.
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I don't even care about the nerf anymore. What I care about is the way we're being talked to about it.
I have a serious problem with being accused of "convenient ignorance" or not reporting a bug. In the nearly two years I've been on this server, no, the crafting system hasn't made much sense to me. I have consistently struggled to understand it so as I come into more understanding currently, I really don't see how it falls on my lap, or others like me, to know this was a bug. How would we know it was a bug?
I see the Dev team calling us names at that point. Are we power gamers, exploiters, and cheats because we didn't know there was a bug to be reported? Because i sure as hell didn't. And how can this be put on the Player base when DM"s have Player characters too, and didn't seem to report it either? How is this an acceptable response?
I just feel like maybe the tone is out of line.
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That not a single person found that peculiar, especially considering how consistently procedurally the crafting system is set up, is to me a clear example of (and this is with me trying to assuming the best in people) collective ignorance by convenience.
Here's the thing. I'll try and be short and quick about what you just said.
No one brought up the concern of the stat because it was equal to many loot items. Why would anyone think a +6 Reflex save is strange, when we can find rings that give +6 Hide, or +5 Listen? I remember when there was a bug in the wool clothing, I think it gave like 20 Cold resistance, I thought that was quite a bit, so I informed a DM. However 20 Cold resistance is a much bigger stat than +6 reflex save. Bioware is to blame for a lot of things involving NwN, but in this situation, we as your beta testers can't report something if it doesn't seem off in comparison to a lot of the custom loot. And truthfully, the crafted gear isn't better than a lot of the loot you can find in dungeons.
So, in closing, if there wasn't other "Loot" items that gave +6, it's possible there would have been reports about the imbalance of the reflex save. That's not on us this time around :)
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Besides if there was an issue with the enchanting of items that give you to high of stat or boost, why not post this on the forum and stop enchanting. I mean if you know it was an issue and let people keep building bad enchanted items, Inst that a flaw on the people who run the server, not the issue with the people who use the items. I mean if nothing else why not open a open chat about this before you just did it??
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I'm just not really sure how people who supposedly didn't report the "bug" can be accused of convenient ignorance while the people who fix the bugs seem to get to pass off their lack of knowing the bug existed on a cluttered forum or heavy workloads. One is not any more ignorant than the other, if at all. Especially if you take into account the stats on some of these things were clearly posted about.
It's a fantasy setting, with all sorts of crazy items and magic. Why is it unreasonable for someone who just enchanted their first piece of gear to assume that the enchanting process could add or remove properties?
I'm sorry but I find it very hard to believe that not a single staff member was aware of these stats at some point during the nine months since the beginning of the other thread. In which case, I think it would have been much more reasonable to open a dialogue on the matter, if changes were incoming.
I'm pretty sure most people are just annoyed with the tone being directed at them. And the fact that most major changes like this could be reasonably expected to come with an advance warning. Sure, people will complain all the same. But most reasonable people would have likely absorbed it better if they'd felt like they were being kept in the loop. As opposed to setting a precedent that random, major changes can happen at the snap of someone's fingers, behind everyone's back.
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How is the player base supposed to report a bug when we don't even know what the correct stats are supposed to be? Should have been up to the dev team to test the enchating system, and if they noticed any crazy items being made, put an out of order sign on the enchanting machine until it was fixed? Kind of seems a little silly that this has gone on like this for a very long time. I havnt been playing here for long but at no point have I heard anyone say the system was bugged.
I think some kind of compromise should be made. Because it is pretty unfair to just nerf it and say it was a bug. Noboby knew it was a bug, so they saved up tons and tons of xp to get these good items. Maybe they wouldnt have wasted their XP if they knew what the correct stats should have been.
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How is the player base supposed to report a bug when we don't even know what the correct stats are supposed to be? Should have been up to the dev team to test the enchating system, and if they noticed any crazy items being made, put an out of order sign on the enchanting machine until it was fixed? Kind of seems a little silly that this has gone on like this for a very long time. I havnt been playing here for long but at no point have I heard anyone say the system was bugged.
I think some kind of compromise should be made. Because it is pretty unfair to just nerf it and say it was a bug. Noboby knew it was a bug, so they saved up tons and tons of xp to get these good items. Maybe they wouldnt have wasted their XP if they knew what the correct stats should have been.
Yes I don't get it either, if you knew it was broken, why allow people to continue to make items....Because it sounds like they did not know if +6 was ok or not and suddenly decided that it was not and so they decided to screw with the players equipment at the last minute. Hell this is a major change to the game, we talked more about NCW then this change was happening on the forum....Why could you not just open a topic and in simple words explained before the items were changed on items. Probably would of helped rather then doing this.
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Let's all slow down on all the finger-pointing and who-should-have-caught-the-"bug" disputes.
First, let's all not forget that we are enjoying this server for free. Free. As in, none of us are paying for this. Anything you get for free is pretty much off limits to complaining.
Second, let's not forget that while we are enjoying this for free, a bunch of dedicated people are actually running this on their own time. They have lives, families, jobs, etc. Their full-time responsibility is NOT catering to us (you know, the folks enjoying this for free?).
Third, while all of this probably should have been communicated to the community before it happened (at least so that players would not feel blindsided), this change is also not anything to have kittens over -- the game and environment have not fundamentally changed, and to the extent players feel cheated out of time and effort (represented by xp), there are potential solutions to mollify the crowd. I personally like the idea of a trade-in mechanism.
So.... everybody take a deep breath, go to the kitchen, and have a nice warm cup of perspective. Life isn't as bad as you think it is. :D
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[raises hand] We're still considered beta?!?! :shock: :shock: :shock: :?: :?: :?:
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Sorry, I disagree with you Merry Munchkin, But this is something to get upset about. People took there own time here and because of that they gained xp, that xp was used to make Enchanted items. Those items were fine until suddenly they weren't. So with the team that runs this changing things over night, Basically its our server and no matter what input or time you put into this server you don't matter here. I have seen this happen over and over and over again. This even pushed me out of the server here. So yea it is something to be upset about....
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Let's all slow down on all the finger-pointing and who-should-have-caught-the-"bug" disputes.
First, let's all not forget that we are enjoying this server for free. Free. As in, none of us are paying for this. Anything you get for free is pretty much off limits to complaining.
Second, let's not forget that while we are enjoying this for free, a bunch of dedicated people are actually running this on their own time. They have lives, families, jobs, etc. Their full-time responsibility is NOT catering to us (you know, the folks enjoying this for free?).
Third, while all of this probably should have been communicated to the community before it happened (at least so that players would not feel blindsided), this change is also not anything to have kittens over -- the game and environment have not fundamentally changed, and to the extent players feel cheated out of time and effort (represented by xp), there are potential solutions to mollify the crowd. I personally like the idea of a trade-in mechanism.
So.... everybody take a deep breath, go to the kitchen, and have a nice warm cup of perspective. Life isn't as bad as you think it is. :D
Forgive me in advanceif this sounds a little harsh,
I've played on many servers, DM'd on a few and hosted one myself (as many here probably have as well), and this is the first thing that devs/DMs and some players too, say when you bring up something critical of the work they have done. "You play for free, we volunteer, we all have lives, etc. etc. etc. Heck I've even done it myself too! I've realized that this isn't really a valid rebuttal. It's like this one phrase absolves them of any wrong-doing or accountability. While everyone is very appreciative that you donate your free time to the server, people have brought up some legitimate concerns here in a respectable manner.
A simple, "Hey guys, we'll be discussing this further on the DM/Dev side of things and will keep you posted" Or a "Hey guys, what do you think the changes should be?" Somethings along those lines would go a lot further with the playerbase.
I'll shut up now
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Free or not, this has nothing to do with that. No one is questioning that the dev team give us a server to play on for free, or that they have lives. We all do.
What's just wrong is treating us badly out of the blue. The nerf? PFt whatever, we'll adjust. I don't even think it was that bad that there wasn't advanced warning.
But being belittled, name called, and persecuted for something that wasn't our fault is just bad manners. What about the rule, be excellent to eachother? Calling the player base on a whole cheaters, who didn't report a bug they didn't know about, is far from excellent.
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Free or not, this has nothing to do with that. No one is questioning that the dev team give us a server to play on for free, or that they have lives. We all do.
What's just wrong is treating us badly out of the blue. The nerf? PFt whatever, we'll adjust. I don't even think it was that bad that there wasn't advanced warning.
But being belittled, name called, and persecuted for something that wasn't our fault is just bad manners. What about the rule, be excellent to eachother? Calling the player base on a whole cheaters, who didn't report a bug they didn't know about, is far from excellent.
+1!!
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Sorry, I disagree with you Merry Munchkin, But this is something to get upset about. People took there own time here and because of that they gained xp, that xp was used to make Enchanted items. Those items were fine until suddenly they weren't. So with the team that runs this changing things over night, Basically its our server and no matter what input or time you put into this server you don't matter here. I have seen this happen over and over and over again. This even pushed me out of the server here. So yea it is something to be upset about....
Yes, I can see your point -- up to a point. No one should be blindsided by an unpleasant surprise. However, when you put in the time to play this game and earn xp for your character, presumably you were doing so because you enjoyed the game, had fun playing with other people, and would have spent this time playing regardless of whether you had an option to "cash out" some xp later for crafting purposes. The fact that you chose to use xp for crafting purposes doesn't make all that playing time somehow disappear, or that your enjoyment of that time spent playing is somehow diminished.
XP is a consequence of play, which everyone presumably is doing here voluntarily to pass the time and have fun. The fact that what you chose to "buy" with that xp in crafting is now diminished in your eyes does not make the prior experience of playing and accumulating that xp somehow retroactively unenjoyable.
However, I do recognize that some players may have chosen not to cash out their xp in crafting if they had known what the items would have become, and as a consequence they are potentially further behind in their character level progression than they might have otherwise been. The solution for this is simple -- let players trade in their crafted items (which presumably they would not have chosen to make in the first place), and provide them an xp "refund" of some sort.
Personally, though, I think the concept of a refund should be tempered by the fact that there is not an xp or gold shortage in the game -- the game generates spawn and loot on an infinite basis. Kill all you want, it will make more. The only resource the players actually have to "spend" is their time, which no one can replace anyway.
Consequently, my previous position holds -- this is not anything to break out the torches and pitchforks over. To the extent that players want recompense for xp they would not have voluntarily cashed out, some sort of corrective action should be relatively easy to do.
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I don't even care about the nerf anymore. What I care about is the way we're being talked to about it.
I have a serious problem with being accused of "convenient ignorance" or not reporting a bug. In the nearly two years I've been on this server, no, the crafting system hasn't made much sense to me. I have consistently struggled to understand it so as I come into more understanding currently, I really don't see how it falls on my lap, or others like me, to know this was a bug. How would we know it was a bug?
I see the Dev team calling us names at that point. Are we power gamers, exploiters, and cheats because we didn't know there was a bug to be reported? Because i sure as hell didn't. And how can this be put on the Player base when DM"s have Player characters too, and didn't seem to report it either? How is this an acceptable response?
I just feel like maybe the tone is out of line.
From everything that I am reading thus far it seems the blame is to be on the players for not knowing what the value of our character's xp should be...uh huh...bug or not fine but you should have given players a heads up regardless. I think Tycat here and many others have a right to be upset.
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While everyone is very appreciative that you donate your free time to the server, people have brought up some legitimate concerns here in a respectable manner.
Just a point of clarification, I am not a DM or developer on PoTM. I am just a player like everyone else. I also recognize that while every playerbase loves to claim ownership of their PW, in reality we all rely on other people to do all the heavy lifting for us. We show up to the picnic to eat all the food, and complain about the quality and variety of the menu, but none of us do the cooking or cleaning or grocery shopping.
The concerns of any playerbase are important, but gamers are a society that often acts very entitled to things we don't really contribute to, beyond playing a game. It is important to raise concerns with changes, and many of the concerns that have been raised are valid, but a lot of what I am reading on the thread is couched in a tone of indignation and entitlement (sort of like a "how dare they change MY game!"). Likewise, I think that the initial tone of a lot of the postings put the developers into a defensive crouch, and changed the tone of their responses. I think we all need to relax a little bit and have some perspective.
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While everyone is very appreciative that you donate your free time to the server, people have brought up some legitimate concerns here in a respectable manner.
Just a point of clarification, I am not a DM or developer on PoTM. I am just a player like everyone else. I also recognize that while every playerbase loves to claim ownership of their PW, in reality we all rely on other people to do all the heavy lifting for us. We show up to the picnic to eat all the food, and complain about the quality and variety of the menu, but none of us do the cooking or cleaning or grocery shopping.
The concerns of any playerbase are important, but gamers are a society that often acts very entitled to things we don't really contribute to, beyond playing a game. It is important to raise concerns with changes, and many of the concerns that have been raised are valid, but a lot of what I am reading on the thread is couched in a tone of indignation and entitlement (sort of like a "how dare they change MY game!"). Likewise, I think that the initial tone of a lot of the postings put the developers into a defensive crouch, and changed the tone of their responses. I think we all need to relax a little bit and have some perspective.
So because of this, we can all be accused of selectively not reporting a bug we were unaware of, and be talked down to? That's what i am getting out of what you're saying. Because of this, so long as we play here, we are up - free game - for being insulted when we were ignorant of what was up.
I built Two servers in my time with NWN. I hosted three, and Admin'd for three. I have DM'd for four servers and I am going to tell you right now - It isn't acceptable to talk down to your players because when it comes down to it, it's mean. That's right. I said it. It is mean. I have seen similar situations cause players to decline, and servers to die. I would never have talked to my players in this way, and usually didn't even when i found them cheating. I don't think anyone is upset about the nerf anymore so much as the tone in which it was handled. I personally felt ill being implied as a cheater. Maybe you don't feel the same way, but this argument you're making is irrelevant to the point.
Server or not.
Rules or not.
We are all people, and negativity is cancerous.
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While everyone is very appreciative that you donate your free time to the server, people have brought up some legitimate concerns here in a respectable manner.
Just a point of clarification, I am not a DM or developer on PoTM. I am just a player like everyone else. I also recognize that while every playerbase loves to claim ownership of their PW, in reality we all rely on other people to do all the heavy lifting for us. We show up to the picnic to eat all the food, and complain about the quality and variety of the menu, but none of us do the cooking or cleaning or grocery shopping.
The concerns of any playerbase are important, but gamers are a society that often acts very entitled to things we don't really contribute to, beyond playing a game. It is important to raise concerns with changes, and many of the concerns that have been raised are valid, but a lot of what I am reading on the thread is couched in a tone of indignation and entitlement (sort of like a "how dare they change MY game!"). Likewise, I think that the initial tone of a lot of the postings put the developers into a defensive crouch, and changed the tone of their responses. I think we all need to relax a little bit and have some perspective.
So because of this, we can all be accused of selectively not reporting a bug we were unaware of, and be talked down to? That's what i am getting out of what you're saying. Because of this, so long as we play here, we are up - free game - for being insulted when we were ignorant of what was up.
I built Two servers in my time with NWN. I hosted three, and Admin'd for three. I have DM'd for four servers and I am going to tell you right now - It isn't acceptable to talk down to your players because when it comes down to it, it's mean. That's right. I said it. It is mean. I have seen similar situations cause players to decline, and servers to die. I would never have talked to my players in this way, and usually didn't even when i found them cheating. I don't think anyone is upset about the nerf anymore so much as the tone in which it was handled. I personally felt ill being implied as a cheater. Maybe you don't feel the same way, but this argument you're making is irrelevant to the point.
Server or not.
Rules or not.
We are all people, and negativity is cancerous.
+1!!!!
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Constantly saying that people need to relax really doesn't help. Likewise, it seems to me that the word "complaining" seems to be getting thrown around liberally.
The discussion has been pretty relaxed, and this is a discussion forum. The legitimacy of the change is just as valid a topic as the actual numerical change it self. Similarly, the idea that the initial tone of certain posters put the developers into a defensive crouch may very well be valid. Likely just as valid as posters being put into a defensive crouch by being blindsided with a change that, quite frankly, seems to have a lot of holes in it's logic.
I suspect that if a discussion had been opened prior to the change then some of the holes would have been filled almost immediately. Instead it wasn't, and so the discussion that does occur is immediately tainted by people feeling cheated. When you combine that with the somewhat shifty reasoning of the change itself, you've got a powder keg waiting to blow.
Still, I don't think anyone here is actually foaming at the mouth in rage.
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So because of this, we can all be accused of selectively not reporting a bug we were unaware of, and be talked down to? That's what i am getting out of what you're saying. Because of this, so long as we play here, we are up - free game - for being insulted when we were ignorant of what was up.
First of all, where in ANY of my posts have I said, or implied, that it is okay to talk down to ANYBODY? I will be interested to see if you can pull out any quotes.
Second, the tone of your response is exactly what I am referring to -- extremely defensive, and rather angry. I can't imagine why anyone would not feel like you were yelling at them.
Third, go back to the beginning of the thread, and tell me that the initial player responses were not of the "WTF" variety? Starting the conversation that way is guaranteed to bring out the worst in your interlocutor. Coming back afterwards and complaining that the responders are being rude... well, rudeness begets rudeness, unfortunately. Perpetuating this particular death-spiral, however, is not constructive. This is why I am suggesting that everyone step back and check themselves. The players think the developers are being rude, and the developers are thinking that the players are being rude. Well, congratulations, both of you are correct.
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Well folks,
I think this thread has ran its course.
If someone wishes to make a thread to discuss the bugs/changes specifically about enchanted equipment, you are more than welcome to do so, so long as they remain topical about the system.
Locked.
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I think we need to discuss it more to actually reach an understanding (even if we might not come to agreement). For the sake of peace, let's keep it locked for another day though.
Let me allow myself to clarify something so it doesn't linger.
I think many of you take too much insult when I say "collective ignorance by convenience". This is not meant to be condescending or point a condemning finger and each and every player. Ignorance does not mean stupid and it isn't usually something you chose to be. Ignorance can also be caused by lack of clarity and information (which points back to us).
When I say ignorance by convenience, it is pointing to a social phenomena - again, not blaming each and every player here - but just that for some who might otherwise have noticed something being clearly amiss, this could have been easy to just accept as fact - out of convenience.
No matter what though, there's not that much point in discussing who has the blame. The important thing is that it's now corrected. We are discussing if we can somehow offer reimbursements to those that want to turn in items, but various elements somewhat complicates it.
Also, I've posted something recently here that elaborates on my own reactions to the way this topic has gone: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=38759.msg486365#msg486365