Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Indigocell on February 14, 2014, 09:27:05 PM

Title: Summoning Spells
Post by: Indigocell on February 14, 2014, 09:27:05 PM
How do people feel about using the summoning spells on this server? My impression is that they are not worthwhile at all given their relative weakness and their extremely short durations.  I notice that the Planar Binding spells (summon version) have also had their durations limited.

Does anyone have much experience with summons, low level and high, that can shed some light on this for me?  If the summoning spells truly aren't viable, should we change them so they are?

My initial suggestion would be to either buff them a little, or increase their durations.  However, I expect that has already been suggested and shot down before. :(

Keep in mind this is just my opinion, based only on past experiences with other servers.  To be fair though, the spawns on this server are much more challenging from what I remember.  If the summons are still the same as they are in vanilla, than I expect they are quite weak in comparison.

In any case, I don't want any trouble.  I just always thought summoning was one of the coolest parts of being a spellcaster, whether you are a druid, sorcerer, cleric, or wizard, and it's unfortunate how underrepresented it seems to be.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: RedwizardD on February 14, 2014, 09:45:15 PM
To my understanding the standard summons and binding spells were nerfed on purpose.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Norture on February 14, 2014, 11:21:15 PM
The vast, vast majority of them are really horrible. And it's probably not something that's going to be adjusted, it's been brought up in the past.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Sinful_Wishes on February 15, 2014, 03:00:07 AM
I feel like summons are rather balanced for where they are at, except that I think that NWN's default theme is pretty lame for the setting..

Level 1-4, a summon (specifically the dire wolf, or spider) can be a rather decent addition to a part for its temporary battle. 5-6 make for very decent imprompt tanks in bad situations.  7+ are extremely potent.. considering they have DR.


Summons shouldn't really be a replacement to the party experience, just a situational benefit. If a caster could go through an entire dungeon with their summon spells (which in some cases, depending on level and what they're trying to do, they can)   Its not really a balanced gameplay, that player doesn't have any reason to party with other people and promotes soloing

And to note: The longer the summon duration is, the more practical it is to use your buff spells on it.. so thats why its so short. Considering I've seen a certain spell on the server solo-clear dungeons that people consider "hard", after being buffed, definitely a thing to stay away from.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Winter83 on February 15, 2014, 03:22:37 AM
Always handy to summy a dire-teddy for the upcoming battle. Can buy you precious time !
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Meriana on February 15, 2014, 08:06:27 AM
My main gripe with short summons is that they can barely function in RP. "Behold, my great large.... boar.... oh... gone... well, damn."

The old suggestion about having summons first begin to countdown to their destruction when combat is initiated would neatly solve that, though.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: DM Cataclysm on February 15, 2014, 11:34:21 AM
This has been brought up before as well, but I think one of the biggest changes I'd like to see is the ability to select the type of elemental that is summoned from the upper level summoning spells. The AI can be a little self-defeating (ie: a water elemental attempts a drown attack and sacrifices half of its HP to try to drown an undead creature that is immune), so it would definitely be good to be able to summon a creature that fits the situation. Otherwise - I've found the summoning spells to be adequately useful in certain scenarios.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on February 15, 2014, 01:48:25 PM
My main gripe with short summons is that they can barely function in RP. "Behold, my great large.... boar.... oh... gone... well, damn."

The old suggestion about having summons first begin to countdown to their destruction when combat is initiated would neatly solve that, though.

That's actually a rather nice, very elegant solution to the problem.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: LackofCertainty on February 25, 2014, 05:46:03 AM
How do people feel about using the summoning spells on this server? My impression is that they are not worthwhile at all given their relative weakness and their extremely short durations.  I notice that the Planar Binding spells (summon version) have also had their durations limited.

Does anyone have much experience with summons, low level and high, that can shed some light on this for me?  If the summoning spells truly aren't viable, should we change them so they are?

My initial suggestion would be to either buff them a little, or increase their durations.  However, I expect that has already been suggested and shot down before. :(

Keep in mind this is just my opinion, based only on past experiences with other servers.  To be fair though, the spawns on this server are much more challenging from what I remember.  If the summons are still the same as they are in vanilla, than I expect they are quite weak in comparison.

In any case, I don't want any trouble.  I just always thought summoning was one of the coolest parts of being a spellcaster, whether you are a druid, sorcerer, cleric, or wizard, and it's unfortunate how underrepresented it seems to be.

I've played a conjurer wizard to level 13, and also a cleric to level 13, so my experience is limited to low-mid levels.

Summon spells are quite powerful, as is.  When a wizard heavily invests in summons, they can often (but not always!) substitute the need for tanks entirely. People mainly have a bad impression of summons because the dire badger and the dire boar always waste the time to activate their rage/ferocity after being summoned.  This which means they don't work well for "Oh ****!" moments, and it's not uncommon to see them just stand there and watch you die during especially laggy sessions.  (The best use I found for badgers was actually to summon them as bait to get enemies to group up for an evard's black tentacles spell.)  However, the dire wolf and on are all pretty nasty customers.

Before I get into the normal summons, I need to devote an entire paragraph to the hound archon. The hound archon, summoned by good-aligned planar ally and planar binding, is a god damned monster, with built in ethereal visage, fire shield, a magic weapon for beating DR, good ab/damage and 3 attacks per round.  Just stop and think about that for a moment.  It's a level 6 spell that summons a very strong monster who also casts a level 6 defensive spell, and a level 5 damage sheath spell on itself.  Basically a three for one spell. The only negative(?) it has is that it sometimes wastes time casting lightning bolts, and sometimes those are stupidly aimed so that they hurt your allies.  When I got access to that spell, a couple castings of it was powerful enough to solo entire dungeons intended for parties of characters of that level.  Holy crap, that thing is insane.


When I played my conjurer, I heavily invested in multiple castings of summon monster across 3 or so levels of spells, and used them as disposable meat shields and/or damage sources.  Defensively, consider that many mages use stoneskin on themselves as a precaution.  When you compare it to the 100 damage that stoneskin absorbs, you start to realize that the 54 hp on a dire wolf is pretty nice for a level 3 slot. (especially when it eats a crit that would've one shot your mage through stoneskin)    Also, summons are insanely useful when a fight starts going badly.  A summon can be left to die while you and your party puts some distance between you and your targets.  (and if you're lucky it'll split up the enemies enough that you can fight smaller groups of them at a time)  Offensively, summons can put out far more single target damage over their life than an equal level spell.  Hell, a single power-attack hit from a dire wolf does more single target damage than a level 5 fireball.  And (unlike that fireball) the direwolf will spam those attacks for several round.   Are they ideal in every fight?  No, but that doesn't make them bad.  Saying that would be like claiming that fireballs are useless, because some enemies have high reflex and evasion.

Honestly, the main reason that a lot of people seem to hate the spells is that they expect them to function like they did in base nwn. (as godly replacement tanks)  On this server, one summon monster spell is about as useful as 1 fireball.  Sure, it might win you a fight, but the enemy might also save against it. (or crit it to pieces) When that happens, you better have extra castings prepared, and a solid escape plan in mind.


The only change that I'd like to see for summon spells would be to change the dire boar and dire badger's, rage/ferocity ability to not eat up their whole turn.  Update them to work like the PC versions of rage, where they function like a free action.  If that can't be implemented, I'd rather have those abilities removed entirely, because they just delay the response time on those low level summons.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Knas on February 25, 2014, 09:31:34 AM
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Geiger on February 25, 2014, 09:34:15 AM
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Yeah - if you're wanting to summon an intelligent being for extended conversation it's better done through a DM so you can properly see the consequences of such an event.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Ternce on February 25, 2014, 11:24:10 AM
On the subject of summon spells, I'd like to see the Summon Dire Badger changed to a rabbit.

Amazing Astoundo could finally get it right!
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: RedwizardD on February 25, 2014, 11:27:41 AM
On the subject of summon spells, I'd like to see the Summon Dire Badger changed to a rabbit.

Amazing Astoundo could finally get it right!

Yes!
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Bluebomber4evr on February 25, 2014, 11:48:34 AM
On the subject of summon spells, I'd like to see the Summon Dire Badger changed to a rabbit.

Amazing Astoundo could finally get it right!
Are you going to make a decent rabbit model? Because right now there aren't any.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Tyras on February 25, 2014, 12:55:37 PM
On the subject of summon spells, I'd like to see the Summon Dire Badger changed to a rabbit.

Amazing Astoundo could finally get it right!
Are you going to make a decent rabbit model? Because right now there aren't any.

It has to have sharp pointy teeth.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Meriana on February 25, 2014, 07:33:58 PM
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Summons aren't just static mindless guardians, a bunch of them have pretty high int.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Badelaire on February 25, 2014, 08:18:16 PM
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Summons aren't just static mindless guardians, a bunch of them have pretty high int.

The point being made is that these highly intelligent entities just stand there like drones. In Ravenloft anything you summon is as trapped as you are on the demi-plane and there's a high chance it'll turn on you as the summoner for doing this (celestials and other good creatures included). There's a huge aspect to conjuring in Ravenloft as a setting and no Hound Archon is going to stand there and hit things for you in silence as you refer to it as your loyal doggy.

Quote
Ravenloft is cut off from the rest of the multiverse, which creates a problem for wizards who attempt to summon planar creatures. In general, a creature still responds to the summoning, though it is rarely what the wizard intended and often unfriendly, especially when the creature attempts to return home and discovers that it cannot depart from the Demiplane.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Knas on February 26, 2014, 02:59:05 AM
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Summons aren't just static mindless guardians, a bunch of them have pretty high int.

The point being made is that these highly intelligent entities just stand there like drones. In Ravenloft anything you summon is as trapped as you are on the demi-plane and there's a high chance it'll turn on you as the summoner for doing this (celestials and other good creatures included). There's a huge aspect to conjuring in Ravenloft as a setting and no Hound Archon is going to stand there and hit things for you in silence as you refer to it as your loyal doggy.

Quote
Ravenloft is cut off from the rest of the multiverse, which creates a problem for wizards who attempt to summon planar creatures. In general, a creature still responds to the summoning, though it is rarely what the wizard intended and often unfriendly, especially when the creature attempts to return home and discovers that it cannot depart from the Demiplane.

Yes, the summons with higher INT makes my previous statement especially true
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Meriana on February 26, 2014, 07:09:29 AM
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Summons aren't just static mindless guardians, a bunch of them have pretty high int.

The point being made is that these highly intelligent entities just stand there like drones. In Ravenloft anything you summon is as trapped as you are on the demi-plane and there's a high chance it'll turn on you as the summoner for doing this (celestials and other good creatures included). There's a huge aspect to conjuring in Ravenloft as a setting and no Hound Archon is going to stand there and hit things for you in silence as you refer to it as your loyal doggy.

Quote
Ravenloft is cut off from the rest of the multiverse, which creates a problem for wizards who attempt to summon planar creatures. In general, a creature still responds to the summoning, though it is rarely what the wizard intended and often unfriendly, especially when the creature attempts to return home and discovers that it cannot depart from the Demiplane.

I am very aware :D Summoning things that should not be summoned is a very seperate issue from the absurd attempts at trying to roleplay with what should logically be summonable or makeable, however. Try to be a necromancer and have undead guardian? Nope, unsummoned before battle lol. And those would be quuuuite undead.  Make an illusion shadow fiend, which liiikely being an illusion would behave exactly like caster wants? NAUP NAUP. Spend time petting a summoned animal? NOPE NOPE.

Can't the atmosphere-breaking summons - mostly elementals, celestials and fiends - just be removed if they are so disruptive? Another possibility of course is that some knowing mage is actively trying to summon from within the demiplane. Which is extra plausible with all the cruel mages who might not have done so so far ;)

Or those INT summons could have a chance of staying around and attacking caster after their time is out. Yay! Take that you silly mages!

There's a very cool @summon command. I want to use it, but don't have the time.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on February 26, 2014, 12:34:54 PM
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Summons aren't just static mindless guardians, a bunch of them have pretty high int.

The point being made is that these highly intelligent entities just stand there like drones. In Ravenloft anything you summon is as trapped as you are on the demi-plane and there's a high chance it'll turn on you as the summoner for doing this (celestials and other good creatures included). There's a huge aspect to conjuring in Ravenloft as a setting and no Hound Archon is going to stand there and hit things for you in silence as you refer to it as your loyal doggy.

Quote
Ravenloft is cut off from the rest of the multiverse, which creates a problem for wizards who attempt to summon planar creatures. In general, a creature still responds to the summoning, though it is rarely what the wizard intended and often unfriendly, especially when the creature attempts to return home and discovers that it cannot depart from the Demiplane.

There's a very cool @summon command. I want to use it, but don't have the time.

So much this. I have so many cool summons at my disposal and none of them last long enough for meaningful RP!
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: queenofspades on February 26, 2014, 03:14:19 PM
I'd really like it if summon durations were raised but there were some saves made to keep controll after a certain duration DC modified by the focuses you have and casting stat, if you fail.... They go hostile. Spells like protection from alignment could help like focuses too.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: RedwizardD on February 26, 2014, 04:21:10 PM
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Summons aren't just static mindless guardians, a bunch of them have pretty high int.

The point being made is that these highly intelligent entities just stand there like drones. In Ravenloft anything you summon is as trapped as you are on the demi-plane and there's a high chance it'll turn on you as the summoner for doing this (celestials and other good creatures included). There's a huge aspect to conjuring in Ravenloft as a setting and no Hound Archon is going to stand there and hit things for you in silence as you refer to it as your loyal doggy.

Quote
Ravenloft is cut off from the rest of the multiverse, which creates a problem for wizards who attempt to summon planar creatures. In general, a creature still responds to the summoning, though it is rarely what the wizard intended and often unfriendly, especially when the creature attempts to return home and discovers that it cannot depart from the Demiplane.

There's a very cool @summon command. I want to use it, but don't have the time.

So much this. I have so many cool summons at my disposal and none of them last long enough for meaningful RP!

That one of yours lasted a whole thirty seconds or so? Makes any meaningful exchange rather difficult.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: swbf2lord on February 26, 2014, 05:03:36 PM
Trying raising the amount of rounds/level, and that should be a good compromise.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Amon-Si on February 26, 2014, 05:06:06 PM
It's hard to terrorize by proxy when your summons go kaputski before anyone can even kill them.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on February 26, 2014, 05:27:37 PM
Trying raising the amount of rounds/level, and that should be a good compromise.

And giving summons via feat a proper 24 hour duration!
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: RedwizardD on February 26, 2014, 05:42:41 PM
Trying raising the amount of rounds/level, and that should be a good compromise.

That would be nice.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Budly on February 26, 2014, 06:16:38 PM
Mayhaps. In an out of combat "script" where they stay the full 24 Hour to symbolise that they ARE creature stuck here.

I had awesome RP with summons before. DMs controlling them and doing fun stuff, Slaads, succubus, imps. All that stuff. Frogson and Arcu want to discuss the planes!  :cry:
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Crimson Shuriken on February 26, 2014, 07:28:51 PM
Mayhaps. In an out of combat "script" where they stay the full 24 Hour to symbolise that they ARE creature stuck here.

I had awesome RP with summons before. DMs controlling them and doing fun stuff, Slaads, succubus, imps. All that stuff. Frogson and Arcu want to discuss the planes!  :cry:
A summon killed the character in your signature following a rp scene  :twisted:
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: swbf2lord on February 26, 2014, 07:31:05 PM
Mayhaps. In an out of combat "script" where they stay the full 24 Hour to symbolise that they ARE creature stuck here.

I had awesome RP with summons before. DMs controlling them and doing fun stuff, Slaads, succubus, imps. All that stuff. Frogson and Arcu want to discuss the planes!  :cry:

I want to say another server does this. Where the counter for their rounds/level only begins when combat is entered.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on February 26, 2014, 08:18:29 PM
Mayhaps. In an out of combat "script" where they stay the full 24 Hour to symbolise that they ARE creature stuck here.

I had awesome RP with summons before. DMs controlling them and doing fun stuff, Slaads, succubus, imps. All that stuff. Frogson and Arcu want to discuss the planes!  :cry:

I want to say another server does this. Where the counter for their rounds/level only begins when combat is entered.

This would make me so happy.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Dread on February 26, 2014, 09:53:32 PM
I think the idea being thrown around of summons lasting until they enter combat is a really good one, but I wonder... is it possible for summons to stick around after the duration's over and simply have them go hostile? It would be wonderful yet simple way to reflect the nature of creatures conjured into the Demiplane of Dread.

It doesn't matter if what you summon is a hound archon or whatever, he's going to be pissed off at you for bringing him to a demiplane where he's now trapped and pulling him away from whatever business he was preoccupied with before.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Dread on February 26, 2014, 10:08:48 PM
Clarification: As far as I am aware, in PnP, the spell Gate is the only one that actually brings outsiders in from their native plane, via a one-way portal. But I you're using something like Planar Ally or Greater Planar Binding, you're still summoning an outsider albeit one that's been in the Demiplane for a while - if anything, it's probably been made corrupt by its extended stay, and would still be pissed off that you summoned it.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: LackofCertainty on February 27, 2014, 09:04:48 PM
I feel like DM's are the way to go if you want to rp out an extended encounter with a summon as has already been said.  Summons are short duration combat spells, not pets that hang around all day for you to play with.  (for that you need an animal companion or a familiar. :P)

To put it another way, if I wanted to rp out an extended scene where I light parts of the town on fire with fireballs, I'd ask the DM's for help.  I wouldn't ask for fireball to make a 24 hour zone of fire to make my rp work.  ;)
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on February 27, 2014, 09:37:09 PM
I feel like DM's are the way to go if you want to rp out an extended encounter with a summon as has already been said.  Summons are short duration combat spells, not pets that hang around all day for you to play with.  (for that you need an animal companion or a familiar. :P)

To put it another way, if I wanted to rp out an extended scene where I light parts of the town on fire with fireballs, I'd ask the DM's for help.  I wouldn't ask for fireball to make a 24 hour zone of fire to make my rp work.  ;)

DMs have a lot of things to deal with, it's a big server, and they're not always going to be inclined to help a player with such a minor request. May as well give players the ability to enable summon RP themselves, since it isn't like you're actually asking for a drastic change (like modifying a spell to set things on fire).
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: swbf2lord on February 27, 2014, 10:25:34 PM
As Bahamut said, it's often hard to find a DM who's online, and when they're online, one who's not busy with other things. Sometimes RP happens spur of the moment, you don't want everything choreographed, otherwise it becomes less fun, and more forced.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: RedwizardD on February 28, 2014, 12:15:17 AM
We also already have options for roleplaying with summons in a limited aspect through the @summon command.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: LackofCertainty on February 28, 2014, 10:22:09 PM
DMs have a lot of things to deal with, it's a big server, and they're not always going to be inclined to help a player with such a minor request. May as well give players the ability to enable summon RP themselves, since it isn't like you're actually asking for a drastic change (like modifying a spell to set things on fire).

I'm not sure how much of a drastic change it would be.  I know that the "don't start summon duration until combat starts" idea was suggested... years ago I think?  I figured that the reason why it hasn't been implemented is because it's something that's hard to implement.   (since it'd require some custom scripting at the least I'd think?)

Also, you have to consider the added power that such a change would make.  One of the biggest fears of a mage is to be caught unprepared.  It's a lot harder to surprise a mage when they have a summoned guardian who basically lasts forever until combat starts.  I know I'd sure as hell think twice before attacking someone if they were constantly followed by a hound archon.  ;)


If you want to do some custom rp with a summon, it should be a significant scene for your character and preferably others as well.  If you're planning such a significant scene, get a DM to help.  Wanting to make your short term combat summon last long longer for rp reasons is... kinda cheesy.   It'd be like a cleric asking for divine power to last until combat started, so they have more time to rp with the massive str it grants.  Part of the downside of short duration spells is that they have a short duration.  You don't have time to stand around and flex while you're using divine power; you cast it, beat some things to death, and then it runs out.   

And if you want to do spur of the moment rp with the summons, then try to work around their short duration.

Summon a dire wolf, then emote:
*The snarling wolf leaps at McBadGuy.  Just before it makes contact, McWizard snaps his fingers, and the beast disappears*
Then unsummon the wolf.

^You've effectively threatened McBadGuy with your summon, and it didn't require any extra dev/DM work to make it happen.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on March 01, 2014, 03:04:01 PM
DMs have a lot of things to deal with, it's a big server, and they're not always going to be inclined to help a player with such a minor request. May as well give players the ability to enable summon RP themselves, since it isn't like you're actually asking for a drastic change (like modifying a spell to set things on fire).

I'm not sure how much of a drastic change it would be.  I know that the "don't start summon duration until combat starts" idea was suggested... years ago I think?  I figured that the reason why it hasn't been implemented is because it's something that's hard to implement.   (since it'd require some custom scripting at the least I'd think?)

Also, you have to consider the added power that such a change would make.  One of the biggest fears of a mage is to be caught unprepared.  It's a lot harder to surprise a mage when they have a summoned guardian who basically lasts forever until combat starts.  I know I'd sure as hell think twice before attacking someone if they were constantly followed by a hound archon.  ;)


If you want to do some custom rp with a summon, it should be a significant scene for your character and preferably others as well.  If you're planning such a significant scene, get a DM to help.  Wanting to make your short term combat summon last long longer for rp reasons is... kinda cheesy.   It'd be like a cleric asking for divine power to last until combat started, so they have more time to rp with the massive str it grants.  Part of the downside of short duration spells is that they have a short duration.  You don't have time to stand around and flex while you're using divine power; you cast it, beat some things to death, and then it runs out.  

And if you want to do spur of the moment rp with the summons, then try to work around their short duration.

Summon a dire wolf, then emote:
*The snarling wolf leaps at McBadGuy.  Just before it makes contact, McWizard snaps his fingers, and the beast disappears*
Then unsummon the wolf.

^You've effectively threatened McBadGuy with your summon, and it didn't require any extra dev/DM work to make it happen.

There are classes like Palemaster, which primarily get a number of summons that are useless (19 hp, 12 AC) for anything short of RP. The duration change doesn't seem that big a deal to me, given that other servers have already implemented it. Aside from the potential of a bit of work going into it, there isn't any real downside to this change that I can see.

Quote
It's a lot harder to surprise a mage when they have a summoned guardian who basically lasts forever until combat starts.

This rings false to me, because anyone walking through the Outskirts with a hound archon behind them is going to be lynched in seconds - and even a hound archon isn't going to save them.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Theorem Of Neutrality on July 08, 2014, 02:35:22 PM
I think the idea being thrown around of summons lasting until they enter combat is a really good one, but I wonder... is it possible for summons to stick around after the duration's over and simply have them go hostile? It would be wonderful yet simple way to reflect the nature of creatures conjured into the Demiplane of Dread.

It doesn't matter if what you summon is a hound archon or whatever, he's going to be pissed off at you for bringing him to a demiplane where he's now trapped and pulling him away from whatever business he was preoccupied with before.

Might mean I could finally play that Master of Shrouds...
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Dire Corby on July 09, 2014, 04:11:48 AM
I think we can all agree that Mordenkainen's Sword and Black Blade of Disaster are perfectly fine the way they are and don't need an enhanced duration.  Not much call for RP with a shimmering plane of force anyway  :P

Oh, and Elemental Swarm is quite burly also, not having had the duration nerfed due to the "repeated summon" nature of the spell.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: Indigocell on July 09, 2014, 06:37:57 PM
Yes, it is mostly the regular summon spells that are not really worthwhile in my opinion.
Title: Re: Summoning Spells
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on July 09, 2014, 07:31:09 PM
つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE Palemaster durations!