Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions & Feedback (OOC) => Gameplay Balance => Topic started by: BahamutZ3RO on January 30, 2014, 07:59:15 PM

Title: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on January 30, 2014, 07:59:15 PM
I present to you, Blackguards:

(http://i.imgur.com/TL7dere.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/y0lfNsR.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/IRsukvj.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/2IZIfGP.jpg)
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Paragonville on January 31, 2014, 10:43:33 AM
Just noticed Hide is a Blackguard skill, yet isn't marked one on NWN.

That needs fixing.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: LivingWasteland on January 31, 2014, 11:01:40 AM
Especially given it's a requirement to even take the class.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Paragonville on February 12, 2014, 04:50:55 PM
Bumping this due to recent discussions on improving classes.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Exordium on February 13, 2014, 01:38:49 AM
When flanking an opponent without crit immunity, level 10 Blackguard does get an average +10.5 damage increase per hit from Sneak Attack, compared to having just went Fighter. Also some Saving Throw bonus, at times.

In what ways would you like Blackguard to be buffed and in comparison to what class(es)? (Paladins aren't a fair comparison -- They have ridiculously strict codes and rules and aren't lore-wise the counterparts of Blackguards and BG from Fighter enjoys Weapon Spec and in future, possibly other Fighter-only feats)
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: LivingWasteland on February 13, 2014, 02:55:03 AM
Primarily I'd like to see a few of their PNP spells and abilities brought in. Such as their aura, and unholy weapon.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Bad_Bud on February 13, 2014, 04:07:56 AM
Well, a proper fiendish ally that functions like an animal companion would be great, but I imagine that would be a lot of work to put together.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on February 13, 2014, 11:37:50 AM
Well, a proper fiendish ally that functions like an animal companion would be great, but I imagine that would be a lot of work to put together.

...But if it were done, it could be copy/pasta'd over to palemasters for the undead cohort! Two birds with one stone! Would it really be that hard? All you'd really need is a feat that gives a summon spell on 24 hr, and when the creature arrives have it function like faction guards/oxen.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Paragonville on February 13, 2014, 12:51:47 PM
Well, a proper fiendish ally that functions like an animal companion would be great, but I imagine that would be a lot of work to put together.

...But if it were done, it could be copy/pasta'd over to palemasters for the undead cohort! Two birds with one stone! Would it really be that hard? All you'd really need is a feat that gives a summon spell on 24 hr, and when the creature arrives have it function like faction guards/oxen.

Yes.  I think that familiars/fiendish/undead allies should have a "stay until rest".  Having them disappear midway through RP is annoying as all hell.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Paragonville on February 13, 2014, 03:21:19 PM
So, basically:

Aura: essentially the same aura given by Battletide if I recall.

Spells: Can be represented by once a day items I guess.

Stay-til-rest fiendish companion (since they serve as Dread Companions in Ravenloft.)
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: manchupechu on May 11, 2015, 10:44:09 AM
Has anything been done to this PrC? Any changes implemented, or planned?
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Syl on May 11, 2015, 11:05:03 AM
Last i recall the game requiers you to take some points in hide... as for comparisson they are like the anti pally...Or an evil fighter and champion of Torm mix...

would be interesting if there were any updates to it or changes. [shrugs]
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Merry Munchkin on May 11, 2015, 11:35:02 PM
Well, a proper fiendish ally that functions like an animal companion would be great, but I imagine that would be a lot of work to put together.

I thought Blackguards already got "create undead" and "summon fiend" feats?  Why do they need the equivalent of an animal companion on top of that?
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Olywynn on May 11, 2015, 11:42:51 PM
All of the reasons are stated earlier in the thread.

The next Hak update will fix a few of the PrCs to make them more prestigious (aka more akin to their PnP forms.)
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: NightMother on May 27, 2015, 04:45:45 PM
On a side note, in 4E the BG is classified as Anti-Paladin. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Anti-Paladin_%283.5e_Class%29 ,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons) . Unfortunately the standard Nwn mind set of good trumps evil, had caused this class to be brutally undermined. Perhaps a simplier balance issue instead of all the changes above, is make it available at level 2? As I doubt you can hard code it to be a primary base class?
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: IllusoryWitch on September 23, 2015, 10:56:52 PM
Not intending to raise a dead thread (On the other hand though, it is still on the first page).
But would a corrupt weapon be something that would be possible or desired for implementation?

 (https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xla1/v/t1.0-9/11988628_10153226870095787_2113981910086272021_n.jpg?oh=36663ec7ed6fecc48dfcd776cfbc2085&oe=56AAF090)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11988472_10153226870090787_6216716671038239077_n.jpg?oh=e1517f65ba625d858b87abaa40c713ed&oe=569BE809)
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Bad_Bud on September 24, 2015, 12:36:25 AM
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/Bad_Bud/corrupt_zpsewewh10f.png)

+1 Enhancement, 1d4 negative energy
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on September 24, 2015, 12:41:00 AM
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/Bad_Bud/corrupt_zpsewewh10f.png)

+1 Enhancement, 1d4 negative energy

(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll153/fruzs/tumblr_lj57t8R5LI1qe5x4p.gif)
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: IllusoryWitch on September 24, 2015, 06:31:57 AM
Neat! Is this in currently or something being designed?

Question. The only official info I could find on corrupt weapon was this;
Corrupt Weapon
Blackguards have access to a special spell, corrupt weapon, which is the opposing counterpart of the paladin spell bless weapon. Instead of improving a weapon’s effectiveness against evil foes corrupt weapon makes a weapon more effective against good foes.

Any reason it should be negative and not divine like a paladin? Divine is not necessarily synonymous with good. I thought it just meant of  or from the gods. Is bless weapon also different here (1 and 1d4 positive? Or vs undead or vs good or untouched?) ?
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Bad_Bud on September 24, 2015, 09:16:17 AM
It's not in yet.

Bless Weapon only deals damage to undead. The opposite would be to deal damage only to living creatures, which would be negative energy.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: IllusoryWitch on September 24, 2015, 09:55:49 AM
Interesting. I decided to take a good and evil approach to bless and corrupt as I felt it was closer to the true intention
 But I like that you've implemented it.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on September 24, 2015, 10:21:48 AM
It's not in yet.

Bless Weapon only deals damage to undead. The opposite would be to deal damage only to living creatures, which would be negative energy.


...Do they get Unholy Weapon too!?

OH MY GOD THIS HAK STUFF IS GOING TO MAKE ME CRAZY HURRY UP AND RELEASE IT AHHHHHHHHHH
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Iridni Ren on February 12, 2019, 11:15:41 AM
Just noticed Hide is a Blackguard skill, yet isn't marked one on NWN.

That needs fixing.

This is still true. To be a Blackguard, the PC must have 5 ranks in Hide. But then Hide isn't currently a class skill of Blackguard.

Given the class gets only 2 skill points/level and 5 ranks (alone) in Hide are virtually pointless, the rules of the class currently make the BG throw away those skill points on a prerequisite that can't be meaningfully developed once the class is obtained.

This seems incoherent to me. If to be a BG a PC must be skilled in hiding, why would BGs then be bad at it?
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: EO on February 12, 2019, 08:41:16 PM
Just noticed Hide is a Blackguard skill, yet isn't marked one on NWN.

That needs fixing.

This is still true. To be a Blackguard, the PC must have 5 ranks in Hide. But then Hide isn't currently a class skill of Blackguard.

Given the class gets only 2 skill points/level and 5 ranks (alone) in Hide are virtually pointless, the rules of the class currently make the BG throw away those skill points on a prerequisite that can't be meaningfully developed once the class is obtained.

This seems incoherent to me. If to be a BG a PC must be skilled in hiding, why would BGs then be bad at it?

This wasn't a bug since blackguards didn't get Hide as a class skill in 3E; it was added in 3.5. I don't mind adding it though since it does make sense.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Pav on February 12, 2019, 08:47:10 PM
I will go out on a limb and assume MS will be included with it, since Hide on its own is virtually useless?
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: FinalHeaven on February 12, 2019, 08:51:22 PM
If the option is to give Hide as a class skill rather than remove it as a requirement then it definitely makes sense to add Move Silently as well.  This would actually make for some neat Blackguard concepts.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: EO on February 12, 2019, 09:09:54 PM
I will go out on a limb and assume MS will be included with it, since Hide on its own is virtually useless?

No plans to add it, no.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Deceit on February 12, 2019, 09:40:29 PM
I will go out on a limb and assume MS will be included with it, since Hide on its own is virtually useless?

Uh, sorry to interrupt, but I want to draw attention to this because it's somewhat incorrect. You can make an entirely viable character that uses only Hide in corner-stealthing. This would beat most encounters. For all other situations, you can flee (this actually fits blackguard as an anti-paladin, since paladins should not flee). Ipso facto, pavel, read a book and read the character description.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Pav on February 12, 2019, 09:43:43 PM
I will go out on a limb and assume MS will be included with it, since Hide on its own is virtually useless?

No plans to add it, no.

Ok.

I will go out on a limb and assume MS will be included with it, since Hide on its own is virtually useless?

Uh, sorry to interrupt, but I want to draw attention to this because it's somewhat incorrect. You can make an entirely viable character that uses only Hide in corner-stealthing. This would beat most encounters. For all other situations, you can flee (this actually fits blackguard as an anti-paladin, since paladins should not flee). Ipso facto, pavel, read a book and read the character description.

You're right, I'm sorry. What was I thinking?
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Danuvis on February 13, 2019, 06:17:36 AM
We all misstep, Pav, it's quite alright. Looking forward to seeing your corner-stealthing vampire blackguard, buddy.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: Daboomer on February 13, 2019, 06:34:35 AM
Do not worry, i am sending in a request to have more corners IG.
Title: Re: Blackguards [Balance Discussion]
Post by: EO on February 28, 2019, 09:31:49 AM
With the changes to fallen paladins, I've been able to implement this from PnP (and Ravenloft) for fallen paladins who become blackguards:

Quote
FALLEN PALADINS:
Blackguards who possess levels of paladin (that is to say, are now ex-paladins) gain extra abilities the more levels of paladin they possess. Those who have tasted the light of goodness and justice and turned away make the foulest villains.

Fallen paladins who become blackguards gain all of the following abilities that apply, according to the number of paladin levels the character has:

1: Smite Good - Smite good 1/day (in addition to the ability granted to all blackguards at level 2).
3: Lay on Hands - Can heal damage to self equal to class level multiplied by Charisma modifier.
5: Sneak Attack damage increased by 1d6.
    Smite good 2/day.
7: Greater Fiendish Servant - Summon a more powerful variation of the Fiendish Servant.
9: Create Greater Undead - Once per day, the blackguard can use the spell Create Greater Undead to bring forth a powerful undead ally.
   Smite good 3/day.

Additionally, the Dark Powers pay special attention to paladins who fall from grace and remain unrepentant of their sins. Ex-paladins who have failed at least one powers check can become blackguards much more easily than members of any other class. In effect, the Dark Powers remove all obstacles from their descent into darkness. The only criteria an ex-paladin who has failed at least one powers check must fulfill to qualify to become a blackguard are the following:

Alignment: Any evil.
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Lore 2 ranks.

Fallen paladins who have not failed powers checks must fulfill regular requirements to become a blackguard.