Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Dread on April 16, 2013, 04:26:24 AM

Title: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Dread on April 16, 2013, 04:26:24 AM
So I enter the ML temple with my wereboar AMPC in hybrid form, intentionally looking to stir some people into chasing me down or going on a hunt - the plan was to leave just as quickly as I entered and to encourage players to hunt me down... and Lizuca just uses Word of Faith on me, while Horatiu just tears into me with critical after critical. So said AMPC is dead.

I'm not saying that these NPCs are stupidly powerful for a low-level area like Vallaki, but yes, that is exactly what I am saying, and it seems to be a regular thing amongst players to hide behind their skirts, get healed, run back outside, fight the monster that's there, get healed, run back outside, get healed, run back outside, and so on and so forth, and it's really rather tiresome. It seems to be an ongoing trend.

"Why are you in the Outskirts, you should leave the Outskirts, Vengeful." Believe me, I would, were people to congregate elsewhere. But using @locate over and over and over has shown me very few people every leave the Outskirts once night hits.

I'm not bitter or anything, it's an AMPC and I don't mind when they die, but I do think there are problems needing to be rectified. The power of Lizuca and Horatiu is one.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: dark_majico on April 16, 2013, 05:36:51 AM
I was thinking something similar very recently. The outskirts are too safe with Radu, Horatiu, and Lizuca giving free healing potions. That's why the outskirts are the main place to congregate. Not to mention the over farming of the crypts, I've said it before but there aught to be a level cap on who Lizuca will help, if your a mid to high level character you should have to work harder for help and use other resources to get by. If anywhere should be a safe place to hang out it should be inside the city at night in the taverns and hospices, behind city walls with an army barracks close by, I think the city should be the safe haven, with the exception of the streets. The daring or fool hardy folk venturing out of the city into the wilderness when they feel confident. Surely that makes a better story?
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Ophie Kitty on April 16, 2013, 05:51:51 AM
"Why are you in the Outskirts, you should leave the Outskirts, Vengeful." Believe me, I would, were people to congregate elsewhere. But using @locate over and over and over has shown me very few people every leave the Outskirts once night hits.

Yep. With the changes to XP and roleplay experience MPCs pretty much have it rough for getting scenes out there. Especially since we can't really do anything in places like the Mist Camp.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: respawnaholic on April 16, 2013, 07:54:50 AM
So I enter the ML temple with my wereboar AMPC in hybrid form, intentionally looking to stir some people into chasing me down or going on a hunt - the plan was to leave just as quickly as I entered and to encourage players to hunt me down... and Lizuca just uses Word of Faith on me, while Horatiu just tears into me with critical after critical. So said AMPC is dead.

I'm not saying that these NPCs are stupidly powerful for a low-level area like Vallaki, but yes, that is exactly what I am saying, and it seems to be a regular thing amongst players to hide behind their skirts, get healed, run back outside, fight the monster that's there, get healed, run back outside, get healed, run back outside, and so on and so forth, and it's really rather tiresome. It seems to be an ongoing trend.

"Why are you in the Outskirts, you should leave the Outskirts, Vengeful." Believe me, I would, were people to congregate elsewhere. But using @locate over and over and over has shown me very few people every leave the Outskirts once night hits.

I'm not bitter or anything, it's an AMPC and I don't mind when they die, but I do think there are problems needing to be rectified. The power of Lizuca and Horatiu is one.

Consider also...this is AFTER Lizuca had her heal spell nerfed. The priests in the ML temple ARE pretty powerful, but the flip side is if they weren't the temple could easily get overrun on those semi-rare occasions where the tombs reach high spawn and PCs are getting chased out of the crypts by skeleton knights and hecculas. That and a large number of PCs are only kept in line with knowledge that most of the staff of the ML church could curb stomp them if they started getting uppity. Remove that and PC behavior would get even more outrageous. Frankly I quit parking my ML priest in the ML temple because I got tired of the endless dumbshit that went on in there among the player base.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Paragonville on April 16, 2013, 08:17:40 AM
But I want to play my brooding death knight who openly talks about his hatred of the Morninglord while standing in the Morninglord Temple!
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Troukk on April 16, 2013, 12:19:53 PM
I agree they are too powerful. It doesn't even make sense ICly becuase unlike what most people seem to think... The temple of the outskirts is not the main temple of the morninglordians. It's actually a crappy rundown temple whose only purpose is to serve as a cork for the evil underneath. The temple in vallaki with father illlie is more important and I'm not even mentioning the huge vatican-like complex they have in the village.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Apocrypha on April 16, 2013, 12:34:25 PM
I have always agreed they are too powerful, but without the added steel... random players will not respect the area or the NPCs.

The poor ML church has been the subject of every "evil for the sake of being evil," attack, the only thing that comes close to things that were randomly attacked is the Orphanage.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Bluebomber4evr on April 16, 2013, 01:08:13 PM
I agree they are too powerful. It doesn't even make sense ICly becuase unlike what most people seem to think... The temple of the outskirts is not the main temple of the morninglordians. It's actually a crappy rundown temple whose only purpose is to serve as a cork for the evil underneath. The temple in vallaki with father illlie is more important and I'm not even mentioning the huge vatican-like complex they have in the village.
"Vatican-like complex"?! :roll: The Village's temple is run-down as well and really isn't much bigger than the one near Vallaki. There are numerous descriptive triggers stating the roof is nearly collapsed, most of the surrounding buildings are wrecked, and the basement is crawling with undead. The Cult of the Morninglord is a minor, poor religion in Ravenloft no matter where you find them, but their main temple is in Krezk.

I have always agreed they are too powerful, but without the added steel... random players will not respect the area or the NPCs.

The poor ML church has been the subject of every "evil for the sake of being evil," attack, the only thing that comes close to things that were randomly attacked is the Orphanage.
Yep. They wouldn't have been made that powerful if the place wasn't attacked every single day.

The Outskirts was always meant to be a low-level meet-up area and not much more. It's unfortunate that people choose to stay there beyond low levels but there's not much we can do about that (believe me, we've tried).
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Paragonville on April 16, 2013, 01:13:09 PM
Sounds like a good time to add Krezk!  Move the Morninglord player faction there.

I assume Krezk counts under the Wachter lands update?
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: monsinyana on April 16, 2013, 01:26:21 PM
Yep. With the changes to XP and roleplay experience MPCs pretty much have it rough for getting scenes out there. Especially since we can't really do anything in places like the Mist Camp.

what are you talking about? the mist camp IS the perfect place for that because everyone can RP and cant hurt each other

its a perfect place for tense RP and threats and telling people 'if you want to do something about it meet me at such and such place and time'
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Vaesi on April 16, 2013, 01:49:07 PM
Agreed they are too powerful, but there needs to be a hub for players to meet/greet high and low, the high levels help low levels and new players.  Thsi server is intimidating enought without that.  Also it seems you get flak if your toon stays in the night, you get flak if you hide in the temple, you get bored wandering around alone on the server looking for rp.  Just like the MPCS get flak if they hang around the busy outskirts, and bored also wandering looking for rp.
 
So the only way I see this resolved is through community and communication, like...

Something I don't see, and maybe its just me... but why doesn't anyone send a tell?  *You hear scratching on the door.*  or *Leaves a trail of...* to give an ic reason for folks to go somewhere... or heck.  I'd even be down for an ooc tell 'Hey want some rp? Head to this general area...'.  I just know when I've tried randomly wandering, I end up in sewers for real life hours alone... and lets face it, its a game.  If I'm giving up hours of my time I will not be doing it wandering alone, I'll go out and have dinner with friends before I do that every night.

Maybe a list of folks playing mpcs on forums... so we can send tells in game saying 'I'd love some interaction with an mpcs sometime'  I'd be the one to send tells, only I don't know who plays those sorts of chars that are looking for interaction.  I hate the ooc of it as much as many but really, if it means we get to be in teh same place IC and have some fun. Great?

Just some possible thoughts I'm sure have been said before, but heck... if an mpc wants some rp let me know.  I'd love some horror/conflict/rp!
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Paragonville on April 16, 2013, 02:02:41 PM
Honestly, I think MPCs/AMPCs should be able to do a voice emote for the next area.  I'm sure that could be coded in. 
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: DM Anecdote on April 16, 2013, 02:04:22 PM
Targetting a voice command at a transition to send it through the transition would be cool, yes.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Kaspar on April 16, 2013, 03:25:51 PM
As an AMPC/MPC I would advise making your player plots/events present elsewhere and broadcast this intent on the rumors/campfire sections of the forums, throw around clues and such to any would-be hunters or people interested in interacting with you. The "Rawr, I'm a monster, going to eat you!" effect is beaten to a pulp on this server and should be reserved for the NPCs. I was guilty of doing this in my beginner years so I am speaking from experience, and it never works out unless you put a lot of depth into it.

EX: Isn't Ghakis somewhat active with a few players looking to make role play more present? You can start there, and try to foster some things up there to encourage more people to head that way. Inhabit a cave, leave clues and tracks, maybe get a DM to help you set something up but as an AMPC these days it's pretty easy to do things independent of a DM.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Dread on April 16, 2013, 03:37:29 PM
As an AMPC/MPC I would advise making your player plots/events present elsewhere and broadcast this intent on the rumors/campfire sections of the forums, throw around clues and such to any would-be hunters or people interested in interacting with you. The "Rawr, I'm a monster, going to eat you!" effect is beaten to a pulp on this server and should be reserved for the NPCs. I was guilty of doing this in my beginner years so I am speaking from experience, and it never works out unless you put\ a lot of depth into it.

I generally do try to do this whenever I can, but you tend to find that you lose something when everything is so scripted. You have to have some degree of spontaneity. Generally, the reaction to whenever I make a post on the forums along these lines is a rather mixed one. Ultimately what I had to do for the mummy I played all the way out in Har'Akir was chase down and harass would-be grinders, again with rather mixed results.

Also wereboars don't eat people, generally speaking - they're just stupidly territorial. But I get what you're trying to say.

Yep. With the changes to XP and roleplay experience MPCs pretty much have it rough for getting scenes out there. Especially since we can't really do anything in places like the Mist Camp.

what are you talking about? the mist camp IS the perfect place for that because everyone can RP and cant hurt each other

its a perfect place for tense RP and threats and telling people 'if you want to do something about it meet me at such and such place and time'

The Mist Camp I've mixed feelings about, just because people in the past have figured out they can be effectively immortal if they hide behind the Vistani NPCs, knowing full well they're completely safe there. But that's neither here nor there.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: DM Anecdote on April 16, 2013, 04:19:15 PM
The Mist Camp I've mixed feelings about, just because people in the past have figured out they can be effectively immortal if they hide behind the Vistani NPCs, knowing full well they're completely safe there. But that's neither here nor there.

Talk to your local friendly DM about that ;)
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: HellsPanda on April 16, 2013, 04:31:43 PM
As nice advice as that is, the truth is that for most of the days they will be "immune" to reprecussions in the Mist camp, since we do not allow the ignoring of NPCs, and conflict only with DMs there.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: airengale on April 16, 2013, 05:28:55 PM
Sounds like a good time to add Krezk!  Move the Morninglord player faction there.

Ooo, tickles me.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Apocrypha on April 16, 2013, 05:35:33 PM
The Mist Camp I've mixed feelings about, just because people in the past have figured out they can be effectively immortal if they hide behind the Vistani NPCs, knowing full well they're completely safe there. But that's neither here nor there.

Talk to your local friendly DM about that ;)

Sure, I'll PM you a list of all the PC's whose setting smashing invincibility roleplay regularly occurs around the Vistani NPCs, including even calling the Vistani "ignorant" in their own camp.

Also, the Mists-Camp is a no battle zone, and you don't attack Vistani.  Vistani OCR settings don't respond to people fighting in Barovia, for that matter.  I trust this is by design.

Outside of the half-way Mists-Camp, no one is invincible.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: monsinyana on April 16, 2013, 05:40:00 PM
i personally think the Vistani should really have it out for Lycans.. what with the image portrayed in Universal monster movies and other places

just as they were seen in assisting dracula.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Badelaire on April 16, 2013, 07:42:49 PM
Any Vistani camp would be far less tolerating of the sort of stupid behaviour prevalent in the Mist Camp lately. These people are insular and mistrustful of non-Vistani due to the universal loathing they receive during their travels. I would also like to point out that they certainly wouldn't be cool with people strolling about with creatures that are known to be dangerous or evil (read familiars) in the vicinity of their children and families. It also takes less than 10 minutes to find a good PDF of Van Richten's Guide to the Vistani with any search engine. Reading enrichens the mind and can strengthen your RP. [Nod nod]
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: dark_majico on April 18, 2013, 08:14:13 AM
Any Vistani camp would be far less tolerating of the sort of stupid behaviour prevalent in the Mist Camp lately. These people are insular and mistrustful of non-Vistani due to the universal loathing they receive during their travels. I would also like to point out that they certainly wouldn't be cool with people strolling about with creatures that are known to be dangerous or evil (read familiars) in the vicinity of their children and families. It also takes less than 10 minutes to find a good PDF of Van Richten's Guide to the Vistani with any search engine. Reading enrichens the mind and can strengthen your RP. [Nod nod]


Good point, they should attack familiars.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: dark_majico on April 18, 2013, 08:18:10 AM
I agree they are too powerful. It doesn't even make sense ICly becuase unlike what most people seem to think... The temple of the outskirts is not the main temple of the morninglordians. It's actually a crappy rundown temple whose only purpose is to serve as a cork for the evil underneath. The temple in vallaki with father illlie is more important and I'm not even mentioning the huge vatican-like complex they have in the village.
"Vatican-like complex"?! :roll: The Village's temple is run-down as well and really isn't much bigger than the one near Vallaki. There are numerous descriptive triggers stating the roof is nearly collapsed, most of the surrounding buildings are wrecked, and the basement is crawling with undead. The Cult of the Morninglord is a minor, poor religion in Ravenloft no matter where you find them, but their main temple is in Krezk.

I have always agreed they are too powerful, but without the added steel... random players will not respect the area or the NPCs.

The poor ML church has been the subject of every "evil for the sake of being evil," attack, the only thing that comes close to things that were randomly attacked is the Orphanage.
Yep. They wouldn't have been made that powerful if the place wasn't attacked every single day.

The Outskirts was always meant to be a low-level meet-up area and not much more. It's unfortunate that people choose to stay there beyond low levels but there's not much we can do about that (believe me, we've tried).

The unlimited supply of healing potions and free heals don't help. If you changed the priestesses spell to a basic Cure Light wounds, and stopped her handing out potions to anyone above level 5 that might help. Certainly would stop the aggresive farming of the crypts by the mid to high range characters would romp through the levels at high speed and egnore the lower level plebs.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: DM Anecdote on April 18, 2013, 08:23:53 AM
The unlimited supply of healing potions and free heals don't help. If you changed the priestesses spell to a basic Cure Light wounds, and stopped her handing out potions to anyone above level 5 that might help. Certainly would stop the aggresive farming of the crypts by the mid to high range characters would romp through the levels at high speed and egnore the lower level plebs.

Although this is a nice idea, all a high level PC needs to do to side--step this restriction is hand off his knuckles to a low level PC. It's a bit of an artificial restriction, as well, framing interaction in OOC logic.

To make it work you'd have to make high-level PCs unable to collect knuckles in the first place.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Paragonville on April 18, 2013, 08:28:17 AM
The unlimited supply of healing potions and free heals don't help. If you changed the priestesses spell to a basic Cure Light wounds, and stopped her handing out potions to anyone above level 5 that might help. Certainly would stop the aggresive farming of the crypts by the mid to high range characters would romp through the levels at high speed and egnore the lower level plebs.

Although this is a nice idea, all a high level PC needs to do to side--step this restriction is hand off his knuckles to a low level PC. It's a bit of an artificial restriction, as well, framing interaction in OOC logic.

To make it work you'd have to make high-level PCs unable to collect knuckles in the first place.

Then again, they can just start having a low level buddy pick them up for them.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: DM Anecdote on April 18, 2013, 08:34:49 AM
At least that would encourage partying...
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Mcskinns on April 18, 2013, 08:45:37 AM
While I can honestly say I cannot recall the last time I drank a morninglord potion I can remember that they were significantly better than the common cure Light potion.  And since herbalism requires 2 herbs to produce something of similar potency(roughly on average I believe, correct me if I'm wrong)  and while 1 of the herbs grows 3/4 of the year in decent quantity finding a second in any season other than spring requires farming a crypt.  It stands to reason players will seek a crypt that can be pushed through quickly and that yeilds more than 1-4 grave herbs of the desired type.  The fact they can get free potions on top of that simply means more return on their invested time and efforts.

Perhaps the NPC can be altered to accept the knuckles in return for services instead something along the lines of...
Cure Light - 5 knuckles
Cure Moderate - 10 knuckles
Cure Serious - 15 knuckles
Cure Critical - 20 knuckles

Have her perform 1 free cure light for anyone per cycle of time, and charge for second/third etc cures with knuckles.  


Or simply include a place outside Barovia that yields some form of healing potion supply, or better yet a minor regeneration potion that does healing over time as opposed to immediate healing.  Just something that would give those higher levels a source other than the ML temple for such things.


As for their Over-Powered baddassery, a tweak to AI putting priority on self-buffs over offensive spells would give players a few more rounds to escape once earning their ire.  Hell, would be nice if they were scripted to encourage players to fight by buffing them instead of themselves.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Aahz on April 18, 2013, 03:13:16 PM
So what I am getting from all of this is A: first  people complain that others do not respect the setting by staying outside at night and disrupting the setting. B: Others start staying inside at night, especially in a place that is "safe" (which makes the most IC sense) and people complain that its boring because others are staying inside at night. C: People also complain that NPCs are too powerful in the safest place on the server to be at night because AMPCs/ MPCs cannot run in an cause havoc.

Conclusion A: Lots of different things have been tried in the past to change the dynamic and the result has been the outskirts and the temple there being as it exists now.

Conclusion B: People are going to complain no matter what others do or refrain from doing.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Dread on April 18, 2013, 07:10:23 PM
Actually, the problem lies in the fact that players are overly reliant upon the ML temple. If people stayed in the ML temple, that would be one thing, but people tended to run outside, fight whatever MPC is there, and run back inside to get healed up, and rush on out. Effectively this means the players act as though their characters are immortal because they effectively are, and they know they only need to succeed in killing an MPC once for it to be gone for good.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Geiger on April 18, 2013, 07:11:40 PM
I'd say short of a vampire there is nothing stopping an MPC from going into that temple. Beat down all the NPCs inside and be responsible.

Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Paragonville on April 18, 2013, 07:13:29 PM
Actually, the problem lies in the fact that players are overly reliant upon the ML temple. If people stayed in the ML temple, that would be one thing, but people tended to run outside, fight whatever MPC is there, and run back inside to get healed up, and rush on out. Effectively this means the players act as though their characters are immortal because they effectively are, and they know they only need to succeed in killing an MPC once for it to be gone for good.

Legit!  Sucks, whenever you ride into town even on evil characters to cause trouble, when you beat people down.  They just run inside before you can knock them down, then come out full healed to  do battle again.

For serious!  It isn't cool.  If you're going to play the hero, expect to face the consequences.  Vice versa, if you're evil.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Apocrypha on April 18, 2013, 07:16:04 PM
I'd say short of a vampire there is nothing stopping an MPC from going into that temple. Beat down all the NPCs inside and be responsible.



While I don't disagree with letting the cards fall as they may and shitstomping NPCs when it is appropriate; it is considered bad form of MPCs.  In spite of the fact that some "Off Duty" time for Lizuca and Horatiu might actually be good for player invincibility.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Lucadia on April 18, 2013, 07:17:37 PM
Before you knock them down-
Just make the npcs ignore mpcs. Make them overcome fear instead trying kill you. Then players cant hide behide their skirts.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Paragonville on April 18, 2013, 07:18:32 PM
I'd say short of a vampire there is nothing stopping an MPC from going into that temple. Beat down all the NPCs inside and be responsible.



While I don't disagree with letting the cards fall as they may and shitstomping NPCs when it is appropriate; it is considered bad form of MPCs.  In spite of the fact that some "Off Duty" time for Lizuca and Horatiu might actually be good for player invincibility.

The blessing pool already works for only day time.  The Temple should be like the Temple of Osiris, in my opinion.  Have Lizuca go to sleep at night, leave the squishier lightcarriers stick around.  That means no healing for players unless there is a player healer.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Ophie Kitty on April 18, 2013, 07:21:00 PM
I'd say short of a vampire there is nothing stopping an MPC from going into that temple. Beat down all the NPCs inside and be responsible.



They don't let us vampires cause we'd totally kick their butt. :(
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Dread on April 18, 2013, 07:47:56 PM
I mean, at the very least, remove WoF from the host of spells she knows. Anyone who has played a cleric knows that's an instant "I win" button.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Aahz on April 18, 2013, 08:00:45 PM
Actually, the problem lies in the fact that players are overly reliant upon the ML temple. If people stayed in the ML temple, that would be one thing, but people tended to run outside, fight whatever MPC is there, and run back inside to get healed up, and rush on out. Effectively this means the players act as though their characters are immortal because they effectively are, and they know they only need to succeed in killing an MPC once for it to be gone for good.

Legit!  Sucks, whenever you ride into town even on evil characters to cause trouble, when you beat people down.  They just run inside before you can knock them down, then come out full healed to  do battle again.

For serious!  It isn't cool.  If you're going to play the hero, expect to face the consequences.  Vice versa, if you're evil.

The Outskirts was always meant to be a low-level meet-up area and not much more. It's unfortunate that people choose to stay there beyond low levels but there's not much we can do about that (believe me, we've tried).


Anyone else remember that week where some kind of 'evil' killed all the NPCs in the temple and set up shop? Remember how well that worked out?  (HINT:  instead of everyone running into the temple to get healed they ran into the inn, dropped their 10gp and rested to full health and ran back out to join the fight) 

Some problems just do not have any solutions and you have to make the best of what you have. As Blue Said, its not like they have not tried numerous time already. Argue on.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: eyeofpestilence on April 18, 2013, 08:16:20 PM
Easy solution. As an MPC's don't enter the church.

I'm sorry your AMPC came to a quick demise, but IMHO don't nerf the NPC's. Horatiu and Lizuca have been attacked many times, and killed OOC'ly without DM present, or badly wounded IC'ly with DM present. They were upped in power to stop MPC's or high lvl evil PC's from creating havoc in what is meant to be a 'Sanctuary' for lower lvl chars during the night. They are still able to be beaten, but with difficulty.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Dread on April 18, 2013, 08:38:45 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with the Sanctuary being its namesake for low-level players, if it were just that - a safe place for rest one's head. Instead it functions more as a place where people attack AMPCs lurking there, can open the doors, skitter back inside, stick their tongues out, and go 'Neener neener neener'.

Honestly, it seems the players will not respect any sort of AMPC/MPC presence in the Outskirts, so you might as well just populate the place with some type of spawns at night. They'll at least respect those.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: eyeofpestilence on April 18, 2013, 08:52:57 PM
Honestly, it seems the players will not respect any sort of AMPC/MPC presence in the Outskirts
AMPC/MPC suffer from "See Red Dead". Sadly many players treat MPC's as just another notch in the belt to boast about.

so you might as well just populate the place with some type of spawns at night. They'll at least respect those.
Good suggestion. I think there are some wolf spawns there at night during certain times of the year when Outskirts gets time to reset, but as a hub that's not often and even less frequently do they get a chance to grow.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Aahz on April 18, 2013, 08:57:34 PM
There are werewolf spawns in a far corner of the outskirts map. I think they only spawn in certain conditions though.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Mcskinns on April 18, 2013, 09:49:32 PM
Some time back whilst inside the Ladies Rest 'Mother' was hazing and generating a considerable amount of IC fear through the emote command that produces the server message text.  I can only assume to do such she had to be in mist form/invisible/or highly stealthed at the time to pull it off.  Her emotes of noises at the windows, drafts from fireplace etc. really left one feeling cornered and vulnerable should she burst in and openly begin slaughtering the people within.

Something like this, for other MPC types would be helpful, while they cannot normally go unseen into the temple/inns etc, if they could somehow be given a means to send such messages into the attached area, wether via a command used outside and in close proximity to the door (like the [knock] emote) which produces said text to those inside.  It would greatly enhance the MPC's ability to taunt and lure people into the open without needing to enter said zones directly.  Heck, it believe it should  be possibele to use a power/item and target a door, call on the Waypoint it leads to and there generate a temporary "voice" object that can broadcast their emotes.

MPC's basically thrive on PC interaction, but smart PC's will avoid situations that put them in an MPC's path.  Inventing methods to bring people out into the night more frequently, and preferrably farther than a few steps from safety is where we can benefit most.  Perhaps a herb node that spawns only at night in certain zones that promotes travel at night for those who desire such. I'm sure there are numerous great ideas, heck add a small dungeon somewhere a half dozen zones away from the outskirts that only has spawns in the night, making it worthless to visit by day for any form of XP or Loot.

Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Endlessorrow on April 18, 2013, 09:57:51 PM
  Perhaps make the doors to the temple and the ladies rest lockable by mpcs and bullies with
Open lock skill. The dc set at 1 this will atleast slow down the prey.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Juice on April 19, 2013, 12:18:34 AM
Just dont go into the Temple maybe?

It just seems silly to me that it would be a good idea to send a monster into a temple that has 3 armed guards and a priest who are there to protect people from dangerous monsters.

Its not that the NPC's are pwerfull its that you pick the wrong place to try get RP.
Ladies rest has only one dude who will hit things why not try ravage there instead?
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: FullMoon on April 19, 2013, 01:21:18 AM
Part of the problem would seem to be that every area around the outskirts has werewolves which hems in the players at night. Today myself and two companions encountered a player vampire not far from the ML Church. She presented us with the situation her carriage had broken a wheel and the driver was hurt (great rp by the way). We of course knew oocly this was probably an MPC but as characters we suspended our disbelief and two of us went to check on the driver leaving the third alone with a monster. An ideal horror situation I would say except the two of us that went to check on the imaginary driver got pushed back by werewolves and stumbled on the scene of a feeding in progress. This probably cut the scene short.

 The ML church may not be the problem, it may be the expectation that this is the only area everyone below a certain level are stuck which leads others there by association. The overuse of werewolves is self defeating. It desensitizes players to horror once they can kill them and they lock players into a small part of the server. Werewolves should be less common but much more powerful, able to give a lvl 20 a run for their money. This way people might roam a bit further away from the Temple for horror scenes but if too far away they would run the risk of a sure death encounter. This would give MPC's a little more room for their horror scenes while making Old Night more realistic and fatal.

Locking down Vallaki and the overuse of wererats there is similar. Again you are desensitized to their horror because they are so numerous as to be unrealistic, but also people not being able to walk the streets without a lot of hassels takes away an excellent setting for MPC's to hunt. Horror may be more profound if players are lured into a false sense of security rather than using monsters as movement barriers which you eventually outgrow.

I would suggest making 2 areas in every direction from the outskirts npc monster free and liimit wererats to one or two in Vallaki each night but make them uber. This would cause players too wander a little bit, maybe run to the bank, go to Murnu's or try their luck at night time herb gathering giving the MPC's a hunting ground that is not right beside the healing machine that needs to be in ML Temple.

~Full Moon
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Valiant_Destiny on April 19, 2013, 05:35:05 AM
Part of the problem would seem to be that every area around the outskirts has werewolves which hems in the players at night. Today myself and two companions encountered a player vampire not far from the ML Church. She presented us with the situation her carriage had broken a wheel and the driver was hurt (great rp by the way). We of course knew oocly this was probably an MPC but as characters we suspended our disbelief and two of us went to check on the driver leaving the third alone with a monster. An ideal horror situation I would say except the two of us that went to check on the imaginary driver got pushed back by werewolves and stumbled on the scene of a feeding in progress. This probably cut the scene short.

 The ML church may not be the problem, it may be the expectation that this is the only area everyone below a certain level are stuck which leads others there by association. The overuse of werewolves is self defeating. It desensitizes players to horror once they can kill them and they lock players into a small part of the server. Werewolves should be less common but much more powerful, able to give a lvl 20 a run for their money. This way people might roam a bit further away from the Temple for horror scenes but if too far away they would run the risk of a sure death encounter. This would give MPC's a little more room for their horror scenes while making Old Night more realistic and fatal.

Locking down Vallaki and the overuse of wererats there is similar. Again you are desensitized to their horror because they are so numerous as to be unrealistic, but also people not being able to walk the streets without a lot of hassels takes away an excellent setting for MPC's to hunt. Horror may be more profound if players are lured into a false sense of security rather than using monsters as movement barriers which you eventually outgrow.

I would suggest making 2 areas in every direction from the outskirts npc monster free and liimit wererats to one or two in Vallaki each night but make them uber. This would cause players too wander a little bit, maybe run to the bank, go to Murnu's or try their luck at night time herb gathering giving the MPC's a hunting ground that is not right beside the healing machine that needs to be in ML Temple.

~Full Moon

+1 Some good ideas for possible solutions here.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Miuo on April 19, 2013, 09:29:48 AM
What about lowering the chance rate of spawn to be much lower, giving the desired outcome with little work.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: RedwizardD on April 19, 2013, 10:02:50 AM
Part of the problem would seem to be that every area around the outskirts has werewolves which hems in the players at night. Today myself and two companions encountered a player vampire not far from the ML Church. She presented us with the situation her carriage had broken a wheel and the driver was hurt (great rp by the way). We of course knew oocly this was probably an MPC but as characters we suspended our disbelief and two of us went to check on the driver leaving the third alone with a monster. An ideal horror situation I would say except the two of us that went to check on the imaginary driver got pushed back by werewolves and stumbled on the scene of a feeding in progress. This probably cut the scene short.

 The ML church may not be the problem, it may be the expectation that this is the only area everyone below a certain level are stuck which leads others there by association. The overuse of werewolves is self defeating. It desensitizes players to horror once they can kill them and they lock players into a small part of the server. Werewolves should be less common but much more powerful, able to give a lvl 20 a run for their money. This way people might roam a bit further away from the Temple for horror scenes but if too far away they would run the risk of a sure death encounter. This would give MPC's a little more room for their horror scenes while making Old Night more realistic and fatal.

Locking down Vallaki and the overuse of wererats there is similar. Again you are desensitized to their horror because they are so numerous as to be unrealistic, but also people not being able to walk the streets without a lot of hassels takes away an excellent setting for MPC's to hunt. Horror may be more profound if players are lured into a false sense of security rather than using monsters as movement barriers which you eventually outgrow.

I would suggest making 2 areas in every direction from the outskirts npc monster free and liimit wererats to one or two in Vallaki each night but make them uber. This would cause players too wander a little bit, maybe run to the bank, go to Murnu's or try their luck at night time herb gathering giving the MPC's a hunting ground that is not right beside the healing machine that needs to be in ML Temple.

~Full Moon

I would be inclined to agreed with you actually.. the overuse of werewolves makes them more like pests than a supernatural horror.

The ideas proposed are not unreasonable but unfortunately would also likely take the Devs a lot of work to revamp the spawns.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: dark_majico on April 20, 2013, 03:11:35 PM
Fudge it, why dont we just remove the three NPC's for a week and let chaos reign just to see how it turns out. If people want protection let them haul up in the city at night.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Tyras on April 20, 2013, 04:28:21 PM
Fudge it, why dont we just remove the three NPC's for a week and let chaos reign just to see how it turns out. If people want protection let them haul up in the city at night.

I must be nice to not have to worry about finding a safe place after dark.

We're told that to be outside after dark isn't showing proper respect to the setting and that we're to seek safety indoors.  We do so, but because the players that go bump in the night find it to be too safe to those they would prey upon they complain.  Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.  There are plenty of times where people are hanging around outside, casting spells, wildshaping, summoning things and otherwise giving the finger to the setting where I wonder, "Where are the powers of the old night to put some fear and respect into these people" that you could be getting your fill, but it rarely happens.  When it does you see people scatter like roaches, and finally huddle in the church, afraid to go out.  The minor heal and the silly healing potions that do more to put a person at risk because they heal less than the damage they'd likely take with the attack of opportunity it causes are too much for MPCs?  Please, there's a cooldown timer on how often a player can get that massive twenty something point heal, and the potions are a joke unless you manage to get away and suck down a stack or more of them.  And that's for an average player ofthe appropriate level range in the area.  Yeah, if a higher level player with better healing potions is playing peekaboo with the temple I can see that as a problem, but that stems from the fact that soo many higher levels just can't keep themselves from slumming there.  It has nothing to do with the temple, or the guards.  How many people would have tossed in the towel if left to the chaos of not being able to find shelter or being penned up in a city that can barely tolerate outlanders, and is infested with were rats?  For one who plays low level characters on a regular basis I'd say no thank you, and seek other alternatives for my entertainment time. 
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: dark_majico on April 21, 2013, 03:15:09 PM
Actually when it comes to the temple you have a free heal, and the ability to rest up and dash outside, retreat and repeat. Those potions are weak but they are very light weight and stack able. It doesn't take long to chain chug them down and while it might deplete a higher levels stash the next day a waltz through the crypts or two replenishes your supply. Couple that with three + powerful NPC's for body guards and you have probably the most fortified area in the game, all this offering protection for new and veteran characters alike. It's like being in the center rooms of the MI5 building in london during a terrorist attack. All that to protect a handful of level 5's or 6's? It's just so overkill, well meaning overkill but deffinatly overkill.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Tyras on April 21, 2013, 05:56:12 PM
Actually when it comes to the temple you have a free heal, and the ability to rest up and dash outside, retreat and repeat. Those potions are weak but they are very light weight and stack able. It doesn't take long to chain chug them down and while it might deplete a higher levels stash the next day a waltz through the crypts or two replenishes your supply. Couple that with three + powerful NPC's for body guards and you have probably the most fortified area in the game, all this offering protection for new and veteran characters alike. It's like being in the center rooms of the MI5 building in london during a terrorist attack. All that to protect a handful of level 5's or 6's? It's just so overkill, well meaning overkill but deffinatly overkill.

I agree there is a problem with higher level players using the church as a base of operations, but I'm not going to call for the protection there to be nerfed because MPC's can't be satisfied with playing their role and dealing with the people that don't give the setting the respect it deserves and just have to get into that sanctuary to attack the players that have been herded in there by the setting itse;f.  It's greedy on the part of the MPC.  They have plenty of opportunity to glut themselves on the fear of players and their tasty hitpoints on most nights, those who are in the sanctuary should be safe in that sanctuary, at least in the lower level areas, even if it means MPC's get curbstomped for doing something stupid like PCs get all the time for doing just as stupid things.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Ophie Kitty on April 22, 2013, 01:48:39 AM
Actually when it comes to the temple you have a free heal, and the ability to rest up and dash outside, retreat and repeat. Those potions are weak but they are very light weight and stack able. It doesn't take long to chain chug them down and while it might deplete a higher levels stash the next day a waltz through the crypts or two replenishes your supply. Couple that with three + powerful NPC's for body guards and you have probably the most fortified area in the game, all this offering protection for new and veteran characters alike. It's like being in the center rooms of the MI5 building in london during a terrorist attack. All that to protect a handful of level 5's or 6's? It's just so overkill, well meaning overkill but deffinatly overkill.

I agree there is a problem with higher level players using the church as a base of operations, but I'm not going to call for the protection there to be nerfed because MPC's can't be satisfied with playing their role and dealing with the people that don't give the setting the respect it deserves and just have to get into that sanctuary to attack the players that have been herded in there by the setting itse;f.  It's greedy on the part of the MPC.  They have plenty of opportunity to glut themselves on the fear of players and their tasty hitpoints on most nights, those who are in the sanctuary should be safe in that sanctuary, at least in the lower level areas, even if it means MPC's get curbstomped for doing something stupid like PCs get all the time for doing just as stupid things.

The issue isn't so much that the NPCs need to be removed, nerfed, or anything along those lines; the main issue is the ridiculousness of transition hopping back and forth back and forth and back and forth. It just happens with the temple all the time because there happens to be free healing in there and NPCs who can curbstomp any monster who tries to walk in there. MPCs do -not- have the free roam and open opportunity anymore to find roleplay and handle scenes like they have had in the past. With the changes to the server's XP and hub locations you can find over 50% of the player base at Mist Camps or the NPC-filled Dementlieu Ramparts, and the fact, at least from my experience, a majority of the people who roam around at night want nothing to do with you and often express their annoyed opinion and often just try to walk away without a word or just immediately take off running, the only scenes that happen nowadays are with the MPCs who try to pressure things with presence such as what most of the were-creatures do, or having to arrange scenes with specifiic players who enjoy the encounters.
Title: Re: Lizuca and Horatiu.
Post by: Tyras on April 22, 2013, 11:34:00 AM
It sounds like, as an authorized MPC and active participant in the Ravenloft Setting, you should not let those that disrespect you so, by expressing their annoyed opinons or simply running away.  Maybe the blood of offending chracters needs to be spilled more readily.  It does stink that people metagame, and I wish there was a way that MPC's didn't show up with red name tags and identifyable names that would alert metagamers to the nature of the MPCs they might cross, and a way for OCR to be masked so that evey NPC doesn't recognize an MPC on sight  (Imagine Dracula trying to travel around London if every person knew his OCR, or if Jonathan Harker knew He was a bad guy from first sight... The story would have been much different from the classic we all know.).  I do think that certain abilities like hold or charm person should be altered for MPCs to make them more powerful, and there should be a mature story minded community of MPCs that could work together rather than a few here or there trying to drive their own stories and being thwarted, not by heroics, but by people simply ignoring them.  I'd imagine it would be harder for people to run away when confronted by Mother, if she had some of her children moving in secret to get behind the foolish people who dare feel themselves safe in the old night, to prevent them from escaping very easily.

That is not to say that there should not be safe havens, at least for lower level characters (maybe less safe places for more capable characters), or that MPCs should be given free reign to step into places they should not tread.  If a PC or group of PCs venture where they should not due to inexperience, lack of proper prepartations or just plain foolishness (Hey guys let's go check out Strahd's castle for lolzors) they die, or at least they should.  The same should be for MPCs.  Sorry, but the temple is supposed to be off limits.  The mist camp and Dementileu are a whole other thing, at least for me.  I love both, but I do think there should be more danger involved for those places.  The Outskirts is a place where people get their foothold on the server, and i'd hate for it to be some sort of MPC feeding ground that leaves players frustrated all the time.  I appreciate MPCs, and all they do for the server.  Mother has been a big part of one of my character's absolute panic about all things vampiric, and after months and months of turning down trips to the terg ruins and avoiding his good friends calls for assistance there he was finally dragged kicking and screaming into the place to face his fears, and by an amazing coincidence (because I've not seen Mother on any of my characters in months) his greatest fear presents her self.  It was awesome.  It generated a bunch of RP fuel for my character, allowed me to show some depth and frailty in a character that is for the most part sure of himself and explore the relationships between his friends that brought him there and did not wish to leave even after his terrified insistance and pleading, both very uncommon to his normal nature, should have clued them in and given them cause to accomodate their friend's wishes... Alot of good came from it, and will continue to come from it in follow on RP.  So, this is not an argument I'm making in an us versus them capacity.  I just don't think it would be good for anybody to have newer players unable to find a safe haven for the night, especially when being indoors is drilled into every newly misted person from every NPC and RPer near the outskirts.