Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Geiger on January 16, 2013, 05:42:38 AM

Title: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 16, 2013, 05:42:38 AM
Old, Initial Argument/Suggestion:

Spoiler: show
Hello there POTM folks readers, commenters, and lurkers all,

This is probably not at the top of everyone's minds. Some of us probably will hate the idea. But what I'm going to bring up here, is this:

What does faction gear do what it does and why are some factions decked out with crazy stuff?

I think one of the problems on this server with faction membership, is that there might be a motivation to have access to gear. Some factions have it better off than others in terms of what they have access to.. and in some cases it really doesn't make sense to me why some have 'uniforms'. One particular faction has an entire armory at its disposal and gear that blows the others out of the water. I think the stats that gear is given for a faction distracts from the true purpose of factions: roleplay. Some players seek these factions out and there gear from both in character and out of character perspectives. There isn't inherently anything wrong about wanting to base a particular character around a certain item or wanting to roleplay with a faction. But when one wants to be in a faction just for the gear... thats not too cool, I'd say. This does happen. Doesn't entirely mean its bad either.. it is smart, lol. You get free items that at 1337.

Now, I am not calling anyone out on this. I don't hate anyone in the Vardo. I don't dislike the person who made the Vardo gear. This isn't a jab at them.

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But that faction has some crazy stuff. They have entire sets of gear and items for nearly every single slot in ones inventory. It's also very premium stealth, rogue gear. It's known people will get hold of some very specific, Vardo only items just so they don't have put so many points into lock pick. They get a lock pick that gives a +3 bonus (two of them = +6). That might not seem much...

But then they have armor that gives them (they have everything from fullplate to cloth armor) + 1 AC pick pocket, open lock, search, spot (this stuff isn't relegated to rank, anyone can get it if they need it for their character - brutes get fullplate, rogues and wizards get the light stuff.)

They can also get access to gloves that add addition in pick pocket, open lock and something that escapes.

Add this to them also having access to boots with hide and move silently.

Then take into consideration that they have their own personal stores that infinitely sells -60 weight reduction magic bags, and a selection of items and scrolls at reduced costs that no one else has access to outside the faction.

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Now compare this to the other factions:

ML Faction gets + 1 armor - antagonize, influence and heal (they have armor of all types + cloth, it doesn't really matter what your rank is, you just get stuff)
+ a spear that has divine damage and + 1 enhancement bonus v undead

Ezrites get armor of every type (restricted to templars and anchorites)

Their bonuses are rounded and very useful as well, still not as amazing as the Vardo stuff.
+ 1 Armor
Discipline and Influence
Heal and concentration

Garda armor comparable stats as well, but they have a faction of tradition of giving armor types only at certain ranks. It's not that impressive either.

There are other factions I know to exist. But their is limited to one 'cool thing'. It's fitting with the group.

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Well, why do I bring all this up? I don't think it's really fair to the player base in general and it doesn't really encourage much faction play outside gear. Yes! There are people who actually join the factions to have fun and give to the narrative... but their gear doesn't really come out as attractive. Those factions usually have incredibly low player rates. Look at the Vardo (who does flux from time to time)... but they usually maintain a high number of people out there compared to other factions who might have two or three active members at best. They also get their own special merchants and get premium prices with their own "secret" merchants. They even have branches between the Port-au-Lucine and Barovia. They actually have -four- faction bases.


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Well, now, this isn't just me going "DEY GOT MOH THINGS DEN UDDERS, KILL DEM DEAD". That is not at all what I'm trying to point out. I'm pointing this out because I think factions need to be looked at and balanced out to "make sense" and to be a bit fairer.

Factions, I think, should try to stray from gear that people couldn't otherwise get on their own.. but it also should make sense.

Sure the Vardo are a merchant cartel/mob based around the recovery of a certain unnamed Lady's misplaced head.. but why should they get "phat" privileged no else does, with no evening edges? Their bonuses should be determined by what their membership gets its people via roleplay, not just "joining up, dawg".

Faction gear should be limited to one thing that might make them different, that gives a relatively soft bonus and kinda flavors what the faction is about.

Vardo should get a signet ring, or an amulet that can be shown to other members to represent their affiliation and rank. It goes up +1 for your rank. It goes up influence or antagonize.

Garda would get an item worn as an amulet that would be called: Rank Insignia, It gives them a bonus to influence and antagonize. +1 for each rank up on the scale, with recruits have a 0. The item could be applied to other generic paramilitary type factions as well like the Gundarakite rebels (and other garda forces/policemenwhatever in other places in barovia and the core. So it's generic and easily used for other stuff.

Ba'al Verzi get a ring that identifies them to other Verzi - it gets a +10 Antagonize bonus and once per day use of a poison. (Make this open to being used on food and water and its got some character/flavor) - Or just keep the 'custom dugger' set up they have.

Their faction gear should be made like gear that people can craft. So plates and metal armors are + 1 made of steel and have 80% weight reduction, leathers are comparable to boiled leathers. Sure you can get access to this for basically free (but it isn't different or better than anyone else's stuff that they can get.)

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Religious Factions:

They should just have a holy symbol item that takes up their amulet slot.

For Ezrites, its broken up into sects, and positions.

Layman get nothing.

Anchorites get a holy symbol dependent on sect:

Warden of:
1st = + 3 Influence bonus, alignment restriction LN
2nd = + 3 Heal Bonus, alignment restriction LG
3nd = + 3 Lore Bonus, alignment restriction TN
4th = + 3 discipline bonus, alignment restruction LE

Useable only by cleric

Each rank up, like toret, and such get a bonus point of influence added to the item.

A templar gets a signet ring, they mirror the above, except they get a +2 bonus only and are also restricted by alignment (basically see above, make it +2 according to their sect)
A templar commander gets a +3 influence added to their ring.

The stats here represent what each sect believes and puts up according to its moral ethos.

For the ML Church, it's a generic bronze disk. You get a straight up + 2 heal + 3 influence, and its limited to clerics of CG, CN, or NG alignment. A cleric of the ML must be chaotic good.
Layman/Light carriers get a signet with a +1 heal +2 influence and only usable by good or neutral


Essentially - could we have factions that do not so much get gear, but are based around their reputation and influence? This could be even expanded into a reputation system for factions - controlled by DMs via their perceived plots. - This could go so far as like say the vardo were mean to the wrong people they may get a permanent reputation point associated with the faction and its members so that they generalized by NPCs/faction. This could get to the point to where the faction is hostile to other factions.

This would be perfect for groups like the Gundarakite rebels, for people who openly associate with it and make themselves known.

food for thought, feel free to discuss and give constructive feedback. I'm not the greatest writer, sometimes I have trouble expressing all my ideas clearly. That also goes for stuff you don't understand. I will freely clarify for you what I mean with minsconception.


New Argument/Suggestion:

This is a post of mine later in the thread, that sums up my views so far. Feel free to continue the dialogue and try not to stray too much into bashing a faction for the sake of bashing it. Or bashing at all. Discuss it reasonably and think it out clearly. Be calm and willing to accept other opinions. There are different ideas of balance and problem solving. Try not to discuss things not specifically addressed within like the balance of enchanted goods. There are other threads for that. :) Overall, be excellent  to each other and develop great ideas. Hahah. :)

Quote
Rogues are not that gimped as people say. Gearwise their most important stuff is located outside factions. Hide and move silently stuff can be got everywhere. The Vardo do contain a boon however where no items for rogues actually exist. Lock picking and pick pocket. No where else can you get this bonus, nothing of even compare. A rogue should not have to join the Vardo to get that gear, to have that ability. But this isn't so much anyone's fault. Doesn't make Vardo cheesy or anything.

But this is why I argue that faction gear should be limited. There is nothing wrong for any faction to have a slight bonus. I understand the Vardo are structured around theft. I know how they are represented in the canon and I am aware that they have had a soft boom on our server that has given them a territorial expansion outside of the native Krezk. They aren't that big or powerful of an organization - especially in comparison to something like the Ezrite Church who receives a tithe (and this is just from tithes) of 10 copper, per annum, and have had this happen for over ninety years.

Though it is limited in some ways with the faction itself really being like 4, who work towards the same goal in different ways.

Or the Vallaki Garda who while being a feudal military-police of a Municipality and a regional militia for Barovia itself are so under equipped and are geared with stuff that makes steel crafted goods look like a +5 sword. I am sure the Ioneluses are going to have anyone outside of wartime conscripts equipped at least with steel tipped spears.

The gear and boons of factions should be about the same. I'm not saying they shouldn't have something that is key, or representative of their faction.

A sweet ass lock pick for the vardo.

A spear that aids the Morninglordians in battle against the dead.

A symbol or relic based around whatever sect of Ezra one comes from.

Free room and board, as well as training and "job opportunities" with advancement for some smelly Barovian peasant or foppish Dementlieuse Gendarme in the "police forces" around the world.

Stuff like that.

Gear and uniforms should be up to the players who run and police their factions outside of that, barring guidance from staff in times of silly-willy that I doubt would come up often, if at all. What a faction has should primarily be what the players put into it. I can see what players already can do - I have been and am involved in the community. I am part of factions. I have ran them before. But I really would rather see dynamics placed into what we put into a faction giving us our power and force.

I bring up other ideas too that could be interesting and not impossible to develop outside basic scripting. The ability to update our locks by paying into them, or upgrading npcs that show up in faction halls could be another interesting thing.

Increased garda patrols in areas where they should happen that keep the roads clear of bandits or monsters, extra fences for hot goods for Vardo, parishioners for Ezrites and Morninglordians, and so on and so forth. These would show up and go away with activity in a faction and their ability to 'pay for it'. This could also be influenced by DM plots.

But the goal is to make it so players rely on eachother, their work, and what they pay into it.

But that is me. That is what I think is cool.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: ManticoreRO on January 16, 2013, 06:01:11 AM
  I must dissagree with the alignment restrictions for the ezrites and ml factions. Why does a morninglordian need to be chaotic good? Or a 4th sect ezrite Lawful Evil? Alignments can be RPed in so many different ways. I have a LE lightcarrier. Does that mean that is she's LE she can't be a part of the faction?

  Anyway. I have no idea regarding the Vardo gear, but I think since they are one hell of a wealty mob family, the standard gear should reflect that. For what I know, they don't just recruit every rogue they see out there. Religious factions always had "uniforms". So I don't see the problem with this aswell.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: aprogressivist on January 16, 2013, 06:04:17 AM
Of other Factions, they tend to give either a ring or an amulet.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: ManticoreRO on January 16, 2013, 06:05:28 AM
Of other Factions, they tend to give either a ring or an amulet.

I think the wayfarers do that... you would know :)
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 16, 2013, 06:15:33 AM
I can see what you're saying there with religion and alignment. But how it works in Ravenloft and many other DnD worlds is when you no longer uphold the core beliefs of your deity, you no longer receive their power.

This still happens in POTM, except under one circumstance. You have created a heresy you believe is right and in accordance to your delusion at the beck of the Dark Powers (or DMs here). Maybe an item that can represent actual heresies when they are being observed and roleplayed with.

The ML Church is also very disorganized so it could feasibly have people of.. less than actual fibre. So maybe something limits it to chaotic, and neutral as opposed to moral alignment.


The Ezrite Church is VERY ordered and it watches itself within an in character context, as well as amongst the players. A heresy has to prove itself true to the "Pope" of the Ezrite Church. Apostates and heretics.. are left out on a limb until accepted, ignored, or destroyed. What I propose isn't something soooo restrictive, but it is a guideline to both ensure a general adherence to what those factions are about, but also along the lines enough for people to "play ball".

It'd be easier for some factions, than others.

As to.. the Vardo being rich? Um.. well, so is the Ezrite Church, so is the Vallaki Garda. They could build palaces and pimp garages if they wanted to. They could supply their people just as well if not better.. and would probably want to!

The Vardo - also are limited to Krezk for the most part canonically.. but ours is slightly different has "branched out".

I still do not think they warrent that much gear compared to what other factions get.

@approg

Yeah. I left out the factions and subfactions that have reasonable items that make sense. (Also most of those have small, fairly inactive membership. You are active though and one or two others! :))
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: DM Vinculum on January 16, 2013, 06:17:34 AM
While I appreciate and encourage discussion and feedback like this,

I think it's a very bad idea to start laying out the gear and faction base perks of this Server's supported factions if you don't want people to make faction decisions based on l33t gear.  :P I also don't think it's very good to "spill the beans" about areas and items that a player hasn't yet experienced through gameplay.

Having extensive faction experience, abuse of this gear and distribution of this gear isn't as wide spread of a problem as you believe. You need to remember that supported PC factions with access to bases and gear are, at the end of the day, monitored by DMs in conjunction with PC leadership.

The gear as it stands reflects the specific needs of the faction in question and is made to help them excel in meeting the canon expectations set for them within the confines of the NWN engine.

I will address specifically the Red Vardo Traders gear though since you brought it up. While there are a lot of gear options, A GREAT MAJORITY of it is DM controlled release wise. That is to say, it cannot be procured or acquired through shops of faction armories.

Certainly, with a faction that as been around as long as the RVT pieces have accumulated for some older players and I won't deny that faction items like anything else in game have been the subject of abuses over time. I want to say that the RVT in particular has really tightened the belt with recruitment standards, gear restrictions and gear issuing. At the end of the day there will always be a minority of players inside and outside of factions who will abuse items and perks for their benefit, RVT gear included I'm sure. I do not think it is good practice to punish the majority for the crimes of the minority though.

If we are going to discuss this further, my one request is that we avoid spilling the beans about the items and situations of some of our more secretive factions lore wise. I just don't think it's fair to the setting or the player-base.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 16, 2013, 06:21:29 AM
Yeah, I'll clean that up a bit. But it is to make a point in regards to balance. It's not really fair. There have been factions just as active, just as massive, player and otherwise... but they don't get that sort of stuff.

Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: DM Vinculum on January 16, 2013, 06:28:57 AM
It's important to remember that absolute mechanical equality between factions is not the aim or the focus. The focus is giving the faction the mechanical support it needs to properly RP it's place in the setting.

When the Ba'al Verzi are on par with the Vallaki Garda gear wise something isn't making sense anymore in the setting.

The gear supports and boosts the sort of skills that go with the RP required of the faction. A thieves guild or an assassins cabal should not be penalized because the skill sets required for RP'ing membership effectively have led to the creation of gear that has more of a practical use in certain dungeon or pvp situations compared to the Church of Ezra or the Cult of the Morninglord.



Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 16, 2013, 06:35:26 AM
I took out major numbers. I still hold on the argument. I know you have been active with the faction and that is good.

But the core (haha, punny!) problem is factions really aren't equal in terms what they can, cannot have, can and cannot do. I really think that player membership should have some roll in how that is, some roll should be played by how that faction is portrayed via lore. With this system - not only does it remove a lot of unnecessary gear from the pallette, it makes it based more on what the faction is planning, plotting.. and less around their gear.

Like.. instead of the Vardo having premium merchants, why not just givem them a guy who buys goods marked 'stolen' to remove the stolen flag?

Why not have a reputation system that can have reprehensive/boon giving properties for any faction.

Essentially we get from a faction, or a group what we make of it. Not what phat lewtz they have.

I recognize factions have certain sticks, you know - when I think on it, yes, the Ba'al Verzi doesn't really need the great 'equalizer'. They are a guild of assassins, they do kind of need an edge. Plus the faction really is only one or two people.

But religious groups? The Vallaki Garda? The Vardo? The ML faction. These groups could all very well have dynamics that could fit to 1. How much the community cares to be apart/support them, 2. could effectively become "dead" or "weak" 3. Have systems in place to actually encourage intrigue/political development. Things that can be done dynamically.. so.. we don't need to have a server update to play out change persay, but a flipped lever.

Some factions would be immune, or barred from this because of canon importance/irrelevance. The society Erudite isn't going to openly be running a smuggling ring with their own fund.. thats up to its individuals. The Wayfarers aren't going to be funding an army.

But the Vallaki Garda could very feasibly build up their equipment quality, the Ezrite Churches and sects can (and have been waxing and waning in power.)

I also recognize I have a vision of what I see, the other people have a vision of what they see and there is what the staff does and has set for us.

I like this stuff, I like threads like this that encourage dialogue and I am learning from it too. :)
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: aprogressivist on January 16, 2013, 06:42:31 AM
I think the main "problem" is when you get multiple items that do the same thing or add to the same skills and can stack; the most egregious example being the Vardo's Open Lock items. It's how a +2 or +3 niche can be stacked into a +10 advantage. When a lot of Faction gear provides Deflection or Natural AC bonuses, the risk of "over-stacking" is naturally negated.

TBH, I never really use any of Ana's faction gear anyway (and she belongs to 3 factions); not that some of it isn't good, but there's better things in most of the loot tables for specific uses or objectives. Nor does my templar use his templar armour...
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: DM Vinculum on January 16, 2013, 06:49:09 AM
I don't like the idea of hard-coding faction reputation systems or anything like that, because I think that a faction's presence and any server boons that receive should really come from their RP with the wider community. Having scripted systems that will grant or decrease a mechanical bonus over time would run the risk of leading to grinding or long spurts of inactivity followed by a feverish rush to maintain or restore a lost mechanical advantage.

Now, I haven't been on the server for years and years...I started around the beginning of 2009 on PotM. That being said, in my time I haven't really seen factions flooded with membership for the sake of acquiring gear. Now as a DM, I really don't see it at all. I'm sure it's happened though. What is required is less of a hardcoded system or nerfing, but just DMs and PC faction-leaders keeping an eye out.

Apro brings up the RVT Open Lock bonuses to that I can only offer the following responses:

1- It is in line with the canon representation of the RVT.

2- I don't think any RVT would REFUSE being hired as a lock-smith on adventures. This would actually be an awesome way to benefit from their abilities and RP in the process while staying true to the lore behind the faction.

3- In all honesty there are +X lockpick items available in the server, in addition to spells like knock and the skeleton key. While not as convenient, these exist as viable options to rival the Red Vardo lockpicking ability.

Remember, the Red Vardo are merchants, traders and "finders" Hire one as a "locksmith" on your next adventure, everybody wins!
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 16, 2013, 06:59:48 AM
Yeah, armor and stuff like that is fine. The most someone could have is like a +3 bonus, or so from armor types if its just +1... which is fair. It's what everyone else can have. Skills stack.

You could have rep, you could even regionally base on city/geography.

You know we could even create gold sinks and a basis of economy if factions actually could pay in cash to temporarily boost their lock DCs, or add extra NPCs to guard their stuff.

Reputation would come along with how the faction is acting, it goes up or down based on what players do (or DMs).

One of the biggest and silliest things I hate is how often the Citadel is attacked or razed to the ground.. only to recover. What... what if it didn't because there were no longer players breathing life into it. What if the faction was limited to token patrols?

What if they were doing well for themselves and could buy into NPCs that patrol not just the city, but through the outskirts, through the forest path to show the cities force of authority or power.

Even if a faction "dies".. it could still be revived by a DM who want to push it along. Or players who feel inspired. By the efforts of others, and not just because.. "they have gear".

Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: aprogressivist on January 16, 2013, 07:06:19 AM
It'd actually be interesting to see more Faction armour to occupy the +2AC heavy armour niche. Steel armour covers +1, +3 is covered by enchanted, there's a gap between there.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 16, 2013, 07:30:47 AM
I was thinking even more:

What if this expanded to player factions as well?

Nothing like player houses. Like you'd have to put in a application, pending DM approval. Your faction could then pay rent into a building that some other "canon" faction could otherwise pay into to own. You can then try and build yourself up just as the canon ones would.... or fail. Hahah.

woooah

If you feel like commenting on previous looks, go ahead, I dunno now. I think it could be cooler to just have dynamic factions, reputations and such. It'd actually allow for flow.. without getting to crazy, encourage players to take up the mantel of storytellers and faction leaders. They'll fall and rise.

I dunno. I'm insane, I guess.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Troukk on January 16, 2013, 07:40:37 AM
Going back on topic, I actually approve that the Red Vardo get gear advantage. It makes sense from a roleplay standpoint. Their trader's front is supposed to be a dominating one, and their main muscle is supposed to be money. So having access to perks that allow them to control the flow of fang in the server is a good thing. If a player makes a greedy character and that character decides to join the Red Vardo just because of the item perks, it seems perfectly in line of what should be happening IC-wise.

I was thinking even more:

What if this expanded to player factions as well?

If your faction becomes noticable enough during a decent period of time, the DMs will eventually support you. That's the case of the faction my main character leads at the moment. We started out as a completely player run faction based in The Drain, and now we have most of the perks of a regular faction.

I don't think applications are the way to go. I see factions be born and die rather quickly. This could lead to 1 person factions with the leader hanging tight to it because he doesn't want to lose his safehouse/gear/perks. Just trust that our DM team will support you when/if your faction gets consolidated.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Ercvadasz on January 16, 2013, 08:11:20 AM
About the Vardo gear and items. Yeah they are a bit strong on this side. But yes as Trouk said it they are meant to have the money.
Also as I imagine they are quite hard at keeping folks with them. They are a merchant/crime/mob organisation as it was previously mentioned.
It is, and should be quite hard to leave this faction, alive at least, especailly if you learn about their "true" goals.
They also allow focus on ruthless efficiency, however they as I understand it demand absolute loyalty. Meaning: You are a faction member, you are on faction business, you wear their colours, unless it is asked of you not to wear. (Super secret missions and thelike.) If you are selling their wares, you do it in their colours, and not just in your regular outfit.
Allthough this is just my oppinion and imagination, and I may be mistaken.

I still remember the time, when i ran into some DM run big Vardo event years ago. And the reaction was, if i would stalk them, just kill my char:)

DM Vinculum:
Hire a Vardo? I think for most in game characers that is quite IC-ly a No answer. The Vardo allways had a reputation on the server, even when their reputation was quite fair or good. (This was like years ago.) Whoever spends a bit of time IC with his chars will hear whispers and other things about them whihch should make them reconsider, even to associate with them. (Allthough lately i have not seen that once a common approach that the Vardo were...boyqotted)
They trade in information, not just goods. And having them in your party, means revealing things about your character, even if it just your build, your strengths and weaknesses. They are also bounty hunters, assasins and what not. You do not give yourself out to someone who may once possibly turn against you!
So having Vardo in your party may and should have consequences at some time. Even if it was just one time in the far future.

Allthough again, this is just my oppinion and imagination, and I may be mistaken.

(Also i understand that this is an rp server, and prefers party play, but sometimes creating a party for the reason to create a party, can be quite immersion breaking too)

And to be fair, dunno really most of the Vardo items, and what they do, but i heard some rumours, and seen one or two ingame what they do.

I can get my open locks skill to +18 just with items, on one of my chars, without having ANY access to Vardo gear or item. (Not to mention dex bonus and skill points, and i do not even have access to knock scrolls. And for quite a lot of places that is usually enough. Allthough there are places where the DC is really off balance, but that is another matter.)

about Ezrite gear, i have no idea.
about Wayfarers, i heard it is not bad, and it would greatly help one of my chars. (But joining this faction would not make much sense IC.)

Some factions could use a bit of tuneing up on their item access that is true. I can tell about the morninglordian faction, since i was a member of that faction for nearly a year.
What i found allways a bit strange, is how so many of their items are scattered across the loot table, whereas the faction has access only to the armor(s) and the spear.
I understand it is the base and regular faction gear, but with character advancement, the helmet of dawn, the rosebead of dawn(sorry not sure about the name), the sun maces, or some other items like that could be handed out to characters. (I cannot tell if it is practice or not, since as a member of the faction, my two best items were the robe and a servants candle:) But it feels a bit still strange, how many of the morninglordian faction members have to grind, to find items of their faith.
(Light carriers usually are grinding for the shield of dawn, others for the rosebeads, etc.)



Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 16, 2013, 08:11:45 AM
Red Vardo are actually via the canon are thugs and mercenaries that almost exclusively operate out of Krezk. They don't have a whole lot of influence out Barovia. They're mostly known for burglary and beat downs. Our server is slightly different in that they have an apparent expanded influence and seem to focus more on being 'merchants'. But I don't see how that justifies them having more gear than the Ezrite Church, and equally global and quite rich places. There are many canon and currently supported factions that are -made- of money, power, and influence.. yet for some reason are not comparable.

Back to the new topic.

With the player action idea, because they are player factions.. they're at a disadvantage. You would need an actual group of people, minimum of three. Three to five people is about all you need to maintain a faction. Anything beyond that is just awesome. It'd be a little pokey, make sure you're not insane. You just get access to a building, you don't get to pay into NPCs, you don't get fancy gear you can just update the locks. This is kinda like a proto faction where it can determine whether or not to go full blown later. It's so it just do a boom and bust.. and requires less DM attention for everything.

But yeah, I can also see stuff being bad because of apps. It's just an idea though. I think some of this stuff could be useful to factions in general, with very little change to what we currently have. I guess gear wouldn't matter if factions actually had an imprint, or influence of what goes down.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: SwanSong on January 16, 2013, 08:21:48 AM
We changed the joining procedure for the RVT as a result of both IC and OOC player attitudes, especially regarding the faction gear. It's now a month as an initiate with no access to RVT property (or forums) besides the Services and Port office to weed out players just in it for the loot from those more serious with their character goals. There was a little controversial decision where several largely inactive or unproductive characters got ousted but this is the nature of player factions. You get out what you put in.

As for the loot, it's really only very useful to a pure rogue and far better exists on the loot tables that I, if I was playing a rogue, would choose in favour of the faction gear as many members do. The only real benefit non-rogues would gain is if they invested in some rogue-type skills but as I say, a lot better loot is found out there. As a faction, we do discuss this sort of stuff on our own forums and the topic of several of the faction items being available only via the armoury (Which only the Captain and Advisor can access) as a reward for a member's outstanding work cropped up as sometimes one bad apple would purchase the stuff to pass on to OOC friends and promptly quit the faction once they got what they wanted out of it.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 16, 2013, 08:46:51 AM
That's a good thing and good to hear.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Bardboy on January 16, 2013, 08:53:47 AM
So, been with the faction myself for a couple months, I give you my  honest feed back on it.

Playing a Vardo has offered a lot of roleplay opportunity, to interact with people and events that have happened with different eyes than a non faction member.

We get free gear?   Free gear? No sir, we pay for it, save the uniform. Not only do we pay for it, we don't just flash a ticket and join the faction for the gear, we actually work at it and once you're in, you have to work your way up to remain within the faction. There's no free handouts.

Four faction base? Between the church of the Morninglord's in the outskirts, the refuge in the slums, the church in Barovia with dormitory. The church of Ezra, their dormitory, the church of Ezra in Dementlieu (That's three each if you're counting), the Vardo has the Port Store, the Vallaki Store and a HQ in Vallaki (still three), The Wound is a zone that belongs to the Vardo but is usable for anyone via roleplay. I lost count of how many theater this server has for the Theatre de la Cathedrale.

Every faction is well taken care of in their own ways, we don't have any free healing in any of our faction area like the churches, we were lucky that the devs had characters that were part of the faction and so our areas are well furnished and made to function. The roleplay involved in those areas is far more important than the fact that we have it, we could meet in Tigan's seedy bedrooms if we had nothing else.

As for the lockpicking items, I don't think any rogue on the server NEEDS lockpicking items to open any chests with the right amount of skill points. Also we'd have to turn them in if we ever left the fold. Personally I would love to see the uniform as having influence and perform but that's the bard in me! Fast talking is our principal asset while in uniform, no one goes adventuring in it.

>.< OP strikes me as slightly upset because we got things and he doesn't, an entire thread just because our outfit has lockpicking stats? Heaven's sakes, I got a locksmith belt, come find Rose, I'll sell it to you, cheap cheap.  8)


edited: my apology
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 16, 2013, 09:01:16 AM
I'm... not upset, I just think it's unbalancing. Don't making this a personal thing, that is not the point of the thread and I am glad to see people actually piping up to the contrary. It's a forum for dialogue and discussion. Seriously, do not take it personal. I am willing to accept to know that, I, do not actually know anything. So calm down. :) It's not meant as a stab, I said that in the beginning, and I did it now.

Swansong is a model response - I'm glad to know you guys are trying to police the faction.

But there are ways to look at the problem too from some of the feedback. Seriously - it might be that we need more tough locks for people to pick in dungeons, rather than faction gear.

I'm trying to steer it from the beginning, to the idea of what we could do to enhance factions in general.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Zhernebog on January 16, 2013, 09:26:11 AM
But there are ways to look at the problem too from some of the feedback. Seriously - it might be that we need more tough locks for people to pick in dungeons, rather than faction gear.

I'm trying to steer it from the beginning, to the idea of what we could do to enhance factions in general.
To give one faction items that others do not have equal access is pretty much the definition of unbalanced factions. Though one faction having access to better gear isn't exactly world breaking. If you manage to kill a vardo, I'm pretty sure you're welcome to loot the body and take the items right off them icly, albeit it's a jerk move.

Creating tougher locks might be more of an issue since that would favor higher levels moreso than just a low level with the correct gear. The lock numbers are already high enough that anyone who didn't gear correctly or cross class rogue skills has no chance of opening them. Not to mention raising the lock numbers seems to raise the bash numbers(correct me if I'm wrong), and when the bash numbers get to the 30's you're looking at the realm of impossibility for most characters considering the lack of strength boosting equipment. Even with thirty strength and a crowbar the best you can hope for is to hit 35, anything higher is a madman's dream.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Troukk on January 16, 2013, 09:38:19 AM
To give one faction items that others do not have equal access is pretty much the definition of unbalanced factions.

Yeah it's unbalanced, but it makes sense and helps the setting. Canon factions don't have everything going for them. The fact that they are restricted by canon means that recruiting can be harder. Being my partner in crime, you know better than anybody how huge and awesome a faction can become when you are not restricted by canon and let your creativity run loose. However, canon factions are necessary to the server, and I personally tip my hat to the guys that play them, because they enhance the setting for us all. They deserve their perks.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Zhernebog on January 16, 2013, 09:47:11 AM
To give one faction items that others do not have equal access is pretty much the definition of unbalanced factions.

Yeah it's unbalanced, but it makes sense and helps the setting. Canon factions don't have everything going for them. The fact that they are restricted by canon means that recruiting can be harder. Being my partner in crime, you know better than anybody how huge and awesome a faction can become when you are not restricted by canon and let your creativity run loose. However, canon factions are necessary to the server, and I personally tip my hat to the guys that play them, because they enhance the setting for us all. They deserve their perks.
Oh I wasn't trying to complain, merely make a note that the old adage, "Life isn't fair" prevails. That being said directly under that sentence was an easy ic solution to make up for it, which is a much easier solution due to them being such a tiny faction with few allies.
I'd be tempted to argue that canon/not canon factions are roughly equivalent in stature and recruiting. It's the charisma icly/oocly of the recruiters and the fame/infamy that the faction accrues that lead to higher numbers. Vardos seem like they are rather selective, and for good reason, but that's mostly on them. We shouldn't lead a mentality of quality over quantity simply for the nature of poor/selective recruitment in terms of items.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Ercvadasz on January 16, 2013, 09:47:50 AM
There exists an leather armour, on the loot table that has lockpicking skills (+2), and a various other skill boosts, while it has -4 con! So that lockpick armor is not that exceptional:) (Allthough mentioned example is seriously punishing on the -4 con:)

About Vardo players reply:
It is a nice touch! However i do hope that bad apples have to face appropriate consequences:) (Like Vardo hunting them down, and their friends who have obtained these items:)

About lock DC raising. I actually think most lock DC-s are quite allright. There are a few places that need adjustment, but most of the time they need their DC-s lowered.
(Example Ghakis: the DC-s there are nearer to 50 than to 40, and the loot there is garbage, since the place is meant for around level 8)
The thing with locks is, you either have the skills, or you are willing to sacrifice a lockpick. And these latter do cost a huge amount of money. (Over 1500 for 10 and 12 lockpicks.) And many a times your gain is less than the lockpick you have used up, and it is not that easy to find lockpick 10 and 12, which you usually value greatly, if you manage to aquire.

About enhanceing faction play, and their influence, well i think it is a player side and player attitude thingie.

A few folks cant even keep the simple rule of the outskirts temple, and break their rules the moment a faction member loggs off.
Openly trading, openly drinking, singing, dancing, playing an instrument you name it.
The temple does not ask THAT much of its guests, yet quite a number cannot keep that. (Trading can be performed in the temple, but at least try to hide that you are doing that, and not openly shout out what you are selling or wish to buy, and then perform the task, because this is a simple neglection of the present NPC-s.)
Basicly they are acting ICly a way that is not allowed, merely beause they know OOCly they will not have to deal with any consequences.

As long as such behaviour is widely accepted, tolerated, and sometimes by other players even encouraged, it will be not easy to enhance faction play, because such nuisances can greatly break the immersion.

but again this is just my way seeing it.

Also one thing about the ML faction:
I think not only ng and cg apply but LG as well.
I played a gundar morninglordian priest, who started as ng, but quite quickly became LG. Since he was an old gundar, he knew the difference between Gundars and Strahds rule, and he welcomed the latter more, and has kept all the rules applying to the gundars. (I think i even got into some RP conflict with some rebels. Secondly during my first 2 weeks of play i could not even spend the nights in the temple, because gundars were not allowed to stay anywhere in the Vallaki municipality as long as the curfew was active, at night. So my ML-er had to spend each night in the vistani camp, or in caves, that hopefully had no residents.)
It was quite frustrating most of the time, since it was a major hindrance, and disadvantage. Not being allowed to carry any decent weapon(not even the morningspear!), not really being able to dungeoneer even though i was a buffer/healer build. At start not even being present in the temple!
Yet at some times, these annoying things have led to quality rp, and since this server is an RP server, it should be our aim, to value this over dungeon runs and farmings.
And these few occurances were that actually made up for me accepting these huge disadvantages and hindrances. Consequences, rewards and punishments.
(the way i see it again.)
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Bardboy on January 16, 2013, 09:51:49 AM
It's not quite easy to get gear back when we can't physically see the items, unless the player holding a pair of vardo gloves  is emoting hiding them or somesuch, we'd never know or even have a go at trying. :oops:
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Troukk on January 16, 2013, 10:11:24 AM
To give one faction items that others do not have equal access is pretty much the definition of unbalanced factions.

Yeah it's unbalanced, but it makes sense and helps the setting. Canon factions don't have everything going for them. The fact that they are restricted by canon means that recruiting can be harder. Being my partner in crime, you know better than anybody how huge and awesome a faction can become when you are not restricted by canon and let your creativity run loose. However, canon factions are necessary to the server, and I personally tip my hat to the guys that play them, because they enhance the setting for us all. They deserve their perks.
Oh I wasn't trying to complain, merely make a note that the old adage, "Life isn't fair" prevails. That being said directly under that sentence was an easy ic solution to make up for it, which is a much easier solution due to them being such a tiny faction with few allies.
I'd be tempted to argue that canon/not canon factions are roughly equivalent in stature and recruiting. It's the charisma icly/oocly of the recruiters and the fame/infamy that the faction accrues that lead to higher numbers. Vardos seem like they are rather selective, and for good reason, but that's mostly on them. We shouldn't lead a mentality of quality over quantity simply for the nature of poor/selective recruitment in terms of items.

Hmmm... Good points made there.

And sorry for cutting your quote, I just hate long quotes and rather just paste the sentence I'm trying to answer with my reply.  :D
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: dutchy on January 16, 2013, 10:13:16 AM
Is it not better to see the items as a whole instead of just items ?

Like someone else said the vardo got their Busnis  so it is reasonable they have better gear.

The guards have less better gear but they are just a step up from farmers with a pitchfork aswell as harming a guard can really be a bad thing so as a whole they are far more stronger and better suited then the vardo just not item wise.

Have to see the big picture instead if just a part of it
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: dutchy on January 16, 2013, 10:20:42 AM
Also I am seeing the willingness to have it all equal
That's a mistake the equal mindset doesn't work and is not possible

If someone had a sword of awesomeness doesn't mean you will and can get one aswell. Cause if you wanted that sword aswell you need to do the exact same things as the person. With the sword did.

So stop thinking to equalize it all. There's a reason why some are employees some are managers and others world leaders.   

It's a fantasy mindset thinking ingame it should be an ideal world where everyone gets along and has access to the same gear. It does not work like that.

That's my reaponse to the that's the definition of unbalanced Factions
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Bardboy on January 16, 2013, 10:30:05 AM
i think the balance of power is pretty good, the mechanics of factions have worked for as long as the server as been, willingness of the players involved bringing it to life. All the gear in the world will not stop a guard from dragging a Vardo to the prison and torturing him o.o Or an Ezrite from declaring a witch hunt on us etc etc. If there was a MAJOR oversight and someone actually held throne over others, I would totally agree with the whole deal. But items are just tools to be used to promote roleplay.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Zhernebog on January 16, 2013, 10:52:44 AM
So stop thinking to equalize it all. There's a reason why some are employees some are managers and others world leaders.  

It's a fantasy mindset thinking ingame it should be an ideal world where everyone gets along and has access to the same gear. It does not work like that.
I'm not sure if we had a language barrier derp above but I don't buy that we shouldn't try to achieve balance simply due to some people being reincarnated as destined world leaders, and some fated for poverty. Especially in a magical fake online world we all participate in.
I absolutely refuse not to help find a middle ground, that just promotes resentment and ignorance leading to more threads like these. The issue I have is that if you wanna have one faction with strictly better stuff than another, it promotes elitism and discontent. If your faction readily needs the best stuff to set it apart, maybe it's time to think about rehauling the faction and find ways to make it more special?

As for ic reasons why they get the best stuff, sure, absolutely. Just give any Nurell cultist gear best suited to killing the hell out of people, and don't give it to other people. This is, of course, sarcasm, but that's what makes statements like the previous posts somewhat...skewed? They're notsomuch reasons as excuses, imho.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: aprogressivist on January 16, 2013, 10:56:23 AM
Well, there is a faction that gets gear to kill the hell out of everybody... the Ba'al Verzi. But that's a hard faction to join.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Zhernebog on January 16, 2013, 10:57:17 AM
Well, there is a faction that gets gear to kill the hell out of everybody... the Ba'al Verzi. But that's a hard faction to join.
They can have the hidey kill the hell out of everybody gear. We just want the better openly stabby bits.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: dutchy on January 16, 2013, 11:08:57 AM
What we got now is the middle ground.

Vardo are made to set out and look for a certain thing everywhere and anywhere the gear reflects it, the guards are to keep peace if they fail they have a tool called castle ravenloft

Then there are the holy crusaders of Ezra. These have armies that dwarf most other they are made to fight or made support those that fight in a holy manner so when crossing those there is hardly any realm you could hide in

I'm not saying I don't see your point. But I'm saying your point is invalid
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Zhernebog on January 16, 2013, 11:18:47 AM
What we got now is the middle ground.

Vardo are made to set out and look for a certain thing everywhere and anywhere the gear reflects it, the guards are to keep peace if they fail they have a tool called castle ravenloft

Then there are the holy crusaders of Ezra. These have armies that dwarf most other they are made to fight or made support those that fight in a holy manner so when crossing those there is hardly any realm you could hide in

I'm not saying I don't see your point. But I'm saying your point is invalid
This is not a middle ground, this is a "deal with it" mentality that simply isn't good enough of an explanation to not provoke resentment/raise discussion. If they are designed to have equipment that is strictly superior, or equipment that others cannot acquire/craft themselves, it provides unbalance.
Vardo are set to search about for a very specific item, so are many adventurers, this doesn't mean they should immediately receive the top tier gear to do so. Especially when that item they search for shouldn't require 60% bags. It isn't that heavy. ;D
Ideally, you'd have recruits of the vardo be superior at their job(slinking about, unlocking things, searching for that key item and droppables to sell to keep up the storefront) when they enter the faction. They shouldn't require advanced gear that sets them apart from other nonfactioners, they should be more advanced at the job than nonfactioners, hence why they were selected to be recruited.

That being said, garde need ravenloft to be scary, no question there. And Ezrites are usually player driven in the droves, I loved when the fourth(It was the fourth, right?) went around that deserted castle near the outskirts and stirred up trouble. Great rp.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Feronius on January 16, 2013, 11:39:03 AM
I don't think many people care for the fact Factions (PC or DM) get uniforms or items, really.

At least the thing that worries me personally is that some of the gear described is as good, if not better, than the highest gear available.
I'm not sure if Faction gear should "outrank" the best possible gear PCs that aren't involved in a faction can get their hands on.
I don't own a level 20, so I could be wrong and there might be much better stuff out there. But I believe you do get my point here?



If it were only flavour or rather basic items, I couldn't care less.
But I believe OP has a bit of a point, not when it comes to the number of items, but the "power" of them.
(And a typical Ravenloft discussion btw. Half the posts here sound like excuses or unrelated matters, avoiding the actual issues raised.)
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Elfric on January 16, 2013, 12:11:04 PM
So let' see... The organized, official factions that has existed in their domains  false History shouldn't have gear thats a tad better or unique. Compared to the lowly Outlander mercenary that adventures far and wide like several others, who gain levels quicker due to smashing dungeons, and being generally filthy murderous Hobos. Who's own lands harbor for more powerful items that usually get thrown in the trash. Here's a way to fix that, make a character and join an official faction. Actually bother to be a part of that faction so you can see it from said faction's point of view of occupation to see WHY their equipment is made with such bonuses.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Ovidiu_Lacusta on January 16, 2013, 12:27:42 PM
I don't know, man, it'd be cool if weight reduction was used in Faction gear.  Otherwise I gimp myself to use it in favor of something better.  Well, that's happened before.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: dutchy on January 16, 2013, 12:28:50 PM
Ok what about guards then ? They are stuck with the uniform  their palette is stuck as in it can't be changed and nobody can duplicate the uniform.

That means the guards have a uniform and are stuck with the bonuses. While every none Factions person has better gear then they will ever have

That's the current situation.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Zhernebog on January 16, 2013, 12:32:12 PM
So let' see... The organized, official factions that has existed in their domains  false History shouldn't have gear thats a tad better or unique.
The rest of your post is strawman so I'll simply refute this point.
No they shouldn't.

You shouldn't be able to get anything mechanically superior than the highest you can get out of the faction, joining the faction at that point isn't a choice any longer as it renders other factions inferior. This is not good design.

Current situation on garda:
They're the garda with access to every mercenary on the server the moment a bounty is posted and off duty they can wear whatever. That's like complaining that the cult robes don't absorb fireballs.
Not to mention the garde from the beginning of discussion are an outlier. They have access to castle ravenloft. You're not allowed to complain when you can summon the BBEG at a whim.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: aprogressivist on January 16, 2013, 12:50:17 PM
I think this entire discussion is going downhill fast... >.<

Some overpowered Faction gear was probably a mistake from over-enthusiastic Devs but hopefully it will be kept in check by player and DM vigilance. Let's not start having debates about "balancing" a situation with so many variables as to be unpredictable...
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Legion XXI on January 16, 2013, 01:01:53 PM
I think this entire discussion is going downhill fast... >.<

Some overpowered Faction gear was probably a mistake from over-enthusiastic Devs but hopefully it will be kept in check by player and DM vigilance. Let's not start having debates about "balancing" a situation with so many variables as to be unpredictable...

Yeah, this exactly.  I would say that (at least in the case of the Vardo) it could provide good RP.  Track down that lost gear!  See a rogue picking a tough lock?  Ask to see those lockpicks.  They will likely refuse, but it's not about winning the situation anyways, and it might make them re-evaluate how "worth it" that stolen gear is.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Zhernebog on January 16, 2013, 01:40:33 PM
I think this entire discussion is going downhill fast... >.<

Some overpowered Faction gear was probably a mistake from over-enthusiastic Devs but hopefully it will be kept in check by player and DM vigilance. Let's not start having debates about "balancing" a situation with so many variables as to be unpredictable...
Just because a few people cannot behave civilized does not call for the entire conversation to be so casually dropped. It's disrespectful to the people involved who bothered to make posts involving the opinion of this matter.
Debating will lead to an outcome that is mutually pleasant for everyone involved and the only thing lost is time, which, if we're playing NWN, we have plenty of.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Ovidiu_Lacusta on January 16, 2013, 01:52:43 PM
The situation with the gear and the "dev enthusiasm" that went into the extremely high powered Vardo gear has long represented an unspoken core value.

RVT has always had draw of players who wanted the good gear, it's an appetite that is catered to, so it's no wonder the faction has benefitted from steady interest .   To join any other faction we're saying, "Well obviously RP is more important to you than being competetive, here's some junk, way to be a star"
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Bardboy on January 16, 2013, 02:09:46 PM
The situation with the gear and the "dev enthusiasm" that went into the extremely high powered Vardo gear has long represented an unspoken core value.

RVT has always had draw of players who wanted the good gear, it's an appetite that is catered to, so it's no wonder the faction has benefitted from steady interest .   To join any other faction we're saying, "Well obviously RP is more important to you than being competetive, here's some junk, way to be a star"

 :? I'm not liking where this whole thread is headed.

Rose is a bard, half the gear isn't even for her. The gear does not matter. At all. The intrigues, the encounters with people. Heck I can't even wear half the stuff.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: dutchy on January 16, 2013, 02:13:35 PM
guards who go out at night and become vigilantes have a serious risk in doing so, they can lose their jobs or get punishments thats close to torture.

not to mention their names can be ashamed by the city they serve in.

as for vardo's   why bother?  honestly theres better gear out there so a vardo beeing a vardo can buy better stuff from their own store.

the only thing they do have that nobody else can get is the 60% bags

the outfit fit the vardo faction as the poor peasant junk a guard wears.

heres a fun fact:
the guards never had helmets   yet at some point a guard pc decided to ask around  dm's took notice requests got placed on the faction forums, and voila a helmet was born to go with the standard gear who i think got made by a gnome.


what im trying to say you can change things but do it difrantly, also these items only look bad if used bad and if seen bad        thats a glass half full or empty thing if you ask me.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Norture on January 16, 2013, 02:34:16 PM
One thing I'd personally like to see is alternatives to some of the Vardo gear pieces in the loot table. With the Vardo cape and Vardo boots there are counterparts, while with the Vardo gloves and +3 lockpick daggers there are not (No, the rogue gloves and +1 daggers are not comparable, all of those give just +1). I understand the point of having rogue gear for the rogue faction, it's otherwise hard to gear up a rogue. I don't think any other class is nearly as gear dependent.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Feronius on January 16, 2013, 02:35:49 PM
Actually bother to be a part of that faction so you can see it from said faction's point of view of occupation to see WHY their equipment is made with such bonuses.


I am and have been part of factions, both DM and player ones.
Still I can't see why it needs to be better than some of the best gear in-game though?
You might want to name the reasons why if you're going to type it in caps lock, so it might actually be a constructive post.

Some factions don't venture out and dungeon, like the Garda, but those are not the ones with the great stats on their gear.
The ones that are being spoken of here mostly (Red Vardo Traders, Ezrites, etc.) do as much dungeoning as any other PC.



I think Norture got the point I was trying to make, as was the original poster. And I doubt you could say he's biased.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Misted_Horror on January 16, 2013, 08:19:06 PM
No longer in the faction but let me say this. In no way shape or form is a majourity of Vardo items good. Any decent rogue knows that half of the outfits are trash except in -very- unique ways. Eg, we still use shadowed armour, or enchanted armour, we still use Wary Treads, we still use a cloak of silence, we use everything you guys use. Anyone who thinks the Vardo is about gear.. is full of it. Anyone that joins purely for the gear, pretty much gets their stuff taken from them and kicked, if they don't hand it over and leave.. we contact a lot of people about getting our property back/actually engaging in RP to remove their funds from them (eg, Alexi contacting the Port-A-Lucine bank about the Port RVT getting their money from the PoA bank, 2+ mill).

A lot of people need to realize that the RVT has also been a disadvantaged faction to be in until Vinc and Sera started looking after it somewhat, 0% Dm attention, which means every other faction kicks it in the nuts, whilst they can't do anything. Also note that RVT rules are pretty harsh if a character has their 'own plans', and anyone caught to be doing anything else will be spied on, if it crosses a line then they'll most likely get fired. I'd also like to mention why everyone has a stigma against the RVT Icly. People are potatoes that talk about things in /whisper out in the open. If you want to be secretive, buy 4-5 items, a candle and an amplify scroll, go in to a room with a locked door. If you detect someone in the room listening in to you, kill them. It's not too hard. Imo, RVT items aren't too OP, and I had a chance to look at the majority of them without having a need for them at all. If you can't break DC 35 locks at level 5 as a rogue, something is wrong.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: LackofCertainty on January 16, 2013, 08:58:10 PM
One thing I'd personally like to see is alternatives to some of the Vardo gear pieces in the loot table. With the Vardo cape and Vardo boots there are counterparts, while with the Vardo gloves and +3 lockpick daggers there are not (No, the rogue gloves and +1 daggers are not comparable, all of those give just +1). I understand the point of having rogue gear for the rogue faction, it's otherwise hard to gear up a rogue. I don't think any other class is nearly as gear dependent.

I think this is the core of what this argument is about.  It does not matter if a faction hands out strong items to their dedicated members, but there should always be alternatives available in the loot table.  As powerful and wealthy a faction the RVT is, there should still be items they need to hunt down out in the wilds.  If nothing else, it gives them something to track down, or another opportunity to do business with other PC's who have found said items.

Most of RVT items have loot table alternatives, so it's not the biggest issue, but some simply don't have alternatives of comparable power.

Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: dutchy on January 16, 2013, 09:23:33 PM
One thing I'd personally like to see is alternatives to some of the Vardo gear pieces in the loot table. With the Vardo cape and Vardo boots there are counterparts, while with the Vardo gloves and +3 lockpick daggers there are not (No, the rogue gloves and +1 daggers are not comparable, all of those give just +1). I understand the point of having rogue gear for the rogue faction, it's otherwise hard to gear up a rogue. I don't think any other class is nearly as gear dependent.

I think this is the core of what this argument is about.  It does not matter if a faction hands out strong items to their dedicated members, but there should always be alternatives available in the loot table.  As powerful and wealthy a faction the RVT is, there should still be items they need to hunt down out in the wilds.  If nothing else, it gives them something to track down, or another opportunity to do business with other PC's who have found said items.

Most of RVT items have loot table alternatives, so it's not the biggest issue, but some simply don't have alternatives of comparable power.



the purpose and sole purpose of why the rvt exists is to track something down but only the elite among the elite of vardo ranks know why.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: RigorMortis on January 17, 2013, 12:39:09 AM
It is strange that Vardo have all these different gifts available to them, Morninglordians have to search through the loot tables but they have all those objects as well why not do the same for the Vardo? (The only unattainable Morninglordian items being the Lightcarrier spear and Faction Armor)


For the MLian in tables;

- Hands of Dawn

- Rosey Rings of Dawn

- Rosey Beads of Dawn

- Sunray Lance

- Morninglordian Symbol

- Mantle of the Dawn


Whilst these seem to be Vardo exclusive? That hardly seems fair to me. Justifying these objects as "There are some Loot table items that are *close* does not seem a proper argument.

It is disconcerting that clerics of Non-Morninglordian faith have these Morninglord objects, even if they are dissrespectful to the faith. I've even had them waved in my face on my morninglordian as if I should immediatly stop IC arguments because the person who owns them has recieved "Divine intervention" via this item and thus they know more than me.


Perhaps adding a storage to each faction that allows we in the leadership positions to store objects that are meant to be given to other faction members, in my attempts to hold a festival I am constantly encumbered without a single storage facility besides spending an even larger amount of coin attempting to hold these objects for even a few days.


60% bags are a bit excessive, It allows the Vardo to effectivly monopolize due to the consistant access to these objects, They were placed in I believe as an intent to have your stereotypical 10 Str Rogue being able to carry all the merchandise. However this is ruled as moot since they have unlimited storage access at all times.


My Solution is to perhaps add some "Vardo" exclusive items into the loot tables, ICly this makes sense, Vardo members could fail missions, be slain or killed, and drop these objects easily. Just as the Morninglordian Objects are so available to obtain. My second suggestion is to have a storage implemented for those of us that have no form of it, as it is difficult as equally as a 10 Str Support Cleric, as it is for a 10 Str rogue (Perhaps even moreso if we need to carry our Full plate about). Even if it is only available for the upper members of the faction, it could really alleviate some of the encumberance on events attempting to be held.

Thank you,

Balorvale/RigorMortis.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: YouLitABonfire on January 17, 2013, 01:57:17 AM
Dogs for the Garda. perhaps a widget which allows them to summon one without all the npc's tweaking out or some other work around. Law Enforcement forces have employed the use of canines for centuries and really i don't see why the garda would be any different. just my two cents.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: SwanSong on January 17, 2013, 06:01:16 AM
I've already stated that the equipment currently available to the RVT membership (which is purchased, not handed over as soon as you walk in through the door)  is under review, we do tend to discuss the faction's direction IC and OOC with one another after all and have a dev who's open to suggestions regarding it as any dev would be if approached politely and without demands which I'm seeing here sadly. I would also like to point out that if I had a rogue within the RVT (I don't I have a bard who hardly benefits from all the faction equipment as do many other non-rogue members) I would not even bother wearing any besides the uniform on duty as I'd be on the prowl for the far more powerful items out there such as:

Woodsman's handaxe
True Wit
Sun Mace
Stalkers bows/crossbows
Shadowed armour
Dancer's silhouette
Rings of Silence
Cloak of Silence (not sure if this drops now though)
Greater mantle of the forest walker
Night Cloak
Desert cat belt
Wraith belt
Hector's wary treads
Abber moccasins.

All those items are far more powerful than RVT faction gear and out there waiting to be plucked. The faction's equipment is not even a patch on Ba'al Verzi (+1ac, +4 to stealth skills armours, +1 keen daggers, etc) and Gundarakite rebel equipment (more high stealth equipment) and yet there's no mention of it. Factions gain perks, they're also under a lot more scrutiny and held to account more for their actions. I wouldn't complain just because each represented faith has several churches, temples, sanctuaries and refuges across the server or that they gain free heals or that an Ezrite would choose not to aid my character because they're not of the same faith. Life isn't fair, even more so in the demi-plane.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Feronius on January 17, 2013, 08:15:12 AM
It's little use to list public buildings and services as benefits of being in a faction, while they're accessible by everyone anyhow.
It's also no use to name which items aren't as powerful as some of the best gear in-game or argueing off-topic which factions have even more going for them.

I don't think that was the point of the OP, at all, and is merely just another squabble people imagined to read or brought up after, unrelated from the OP.
All I think the original poster ment to say was "Wait a minute, isn't all of this -together- a bit too much? Maybe even unbalanced." mainly in regards to items.



This isn't somekind of silly impossible strive for complete equality between factions or even aimed at just the Red Vardo, so it'd be constructive if people stopped reading this topic as if it was. And start to actually bring up points like Norture did, about which items are probably a tad too much or need an in-game equivelant. Or which factions have unfair / underwhelming opportunities for items, such as possibly the Garda uniform.
Looking at it from another angle, it might make sense for some items to be -slightly- better than what the public can find. Like the Bal'al Verzi uniform or such. But it shouldn't be the case that one faction gets a buttload of features, attention, items and (faction only) locations / services while other equally old factions don't even have half of it. I think that's more or less what the OP tried to get across... some factions need a bit of love?

So let's stop mentioning buildings that aren't even faction owned, but public domain, or discussing average / flavour items that aren't the point of discussion.
(Unless it actually reflects back on the OP and the balance between factions, but most posts seem to be comparing sizes. Save it for the lockerroom?)
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 17, 2013, 08:20:13 AM
Grimson is on the mark.

Also - please calm down guys. Talk, be calm, and lets all be willing to understand that we might not know everything.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: SwanSong on January 17, 2013, 09:07:00 AM
we might not know everything.

Hence why I bring up the fact we, at least in the RVT, discuss this stuff ourselves. We make a post in a specific thread we have regarding such things and a DM/Dev gets back to us with some feedback on the matter and we take it from there. We don't feel the need to put it open to public debate or comparison to what faction A has that faction B doesn't, it's simply an in-house thing we police ourselves. Things like this take time out of the day of someone's life to sort out. Be a little sympathetic to the ones who who work the toolset in order to create and balance things for the community, it takes a while to implement change. I only mention this from the RVT's viewpoint because, despite what's stated, RVT gear is referred to in damn near every reply.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 17, 2013, 09:38:00 AM
I have noted that. It is why I have tried to steer it towards more dynamic factions. There is apparently a lot of community feeling on the topic though. I appreciate your attempts to clarify in this thread. :)
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Feronius on January 17, 2013, 09:49:35 AM
That's good, nice to hear the Red Vardo shows initiative to reflect upon their own faction.
But some people did feel the need to bring it up the topic of factions more publicly as well.
And with "it" I do not mean the e-peen comparing of factions, but the possible lack of mechanical balance between them or even between a faction's equipment and that available in the rest of the in-game world. Or "it" as in.. simply general feedback to possibly improve existing items, uniforms, balance, features, etc. even further. And then mostly the strengthening of weaker factions, not the taking away of existing things, imo.

This is a general feedback section. And the original poster constructively voiced his feedback.
Yet everyone is still treating this as somekind of hostile personal assault on factions (whether a specific one or factions in general) or even an impolite offensive that disregards / disrespects the work the staff has already put into the factions, while it's really none of those things, at all. It's a constructive, polite and (at least by the OP) seemingly unbiased minor point(s) being raised. I think that's all there is to it.



Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some additional love going towards the garda in the form of expanding their armoury. I don't think it's vital though.
And the idea of having better +lockpick items outside of the Vardo seems reasonable, maybe not +3, but +2? An in between that would make sense.
I also -like- the idea of the Vardo having multiple fronts / shops. Maybe the Wayfarer's or so should get an additional small outpost in the woods?
(Also note that I am not involved in any of these factions currently. And I prefer seeing public things added that don't benefit only the faction itself.)
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Ercvadasz on January 17, 2013, 10:18:13 AM

For the MLian in tables;

- Hands of Dawn

- Rosey Rings of Dawn

- Rosey Beads of Dawn

- Sunray Lance

- Morninglordian Symbol

- Mantle of the Dawn


There is a shield of Dawn(i think that is its name)
and also the Mace of the Sun. (Morninglordian item)
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Zhernebog on January 17, 2013, 12:11:48 PM
the possible lack of mechanical balance between them or even between a faction's equipment and that available in the rest of the in-game world. Or "it" as in.. simply general feedback to possibly improve existing items, uniforms, balance, features, etc. even further. And then mostly the strengthening of weaker factions, not the taking away of existing things, imo.
I think these two key points are probably the most important. I don't think anyone wants to take away items or special attention or any quantifiable neat stuff.
But we do have to say that if a faction(even in the past) received specific gear that outranks the highest possible drop, then we have an issue. And it's an incredibly easy solution that's already been stated:
Just add equal equivalents to crafting or drops. Nobody loses anything, and nobody HAS to join a faction to have the best stuff.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some additional love going towards the garda in the form of expanding their armoury. I don't think it's vital though.
And the idea of having better +lockpick items outside of the Vardo seems reasonable, maybe not +3, but +2? An in between that would make sense.
There's really no reason to not just make equal items available. Nobody loses anything and the server is truly given the choice of joining a faction or not. As of now it's moreso like the best items are held at ransom.
Though, I have seen the vardo selling out 60% bags, which is fantastic, and a great way to share the love.
That being said, just add all the silly things to the drop/craft tables. Everybody gets their cake and can eat it too.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 17, 2013, 12:22:56 PM
Another interesting idea, too, to consider might be having it so most gear for a faction must be crafted from special in-house templates. Though this doesn't entirely come without problems consider a faction would then need crafters it may not otherwise have... but could give incentive to recruiting. Hahah.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Ovidiu_Lacusta on January 17, 2013, 12:27:34 PM
Another interesting idea, too, to consider might be having it so most gear for a faction must be crafted from special in-house templates. Though this doesn't entirely come without problems consider a faction would then need crafters it may not otherwise have... but could give incentive to recruiting. Hahah.

This is a crazy cool idea, since instead of handouts at any point, the templates could be made available so that with some work the factions could implement them for their members.  It would proportion the equipped strength of a faction to player involvement and drive of it's members.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Misted_Horror on January 17, 2013, 02:24:24 PM
The RVT used to look after its own crafts, or would outsource. RP attempts at this thing have already been done. Also note that several people participating in DM events receive far better loot than anything that drops on the loot tables. There are relatively new PCs as well (they were created after I started). Also note, the RVT has been selling 60% bags for -ages-. No one wants to buy them, and the 60% bags can already be found in dungeons, yet again proving your point wrong. All I want to say is actually experience what is out there completely in the loot tables, and the RVT items look like absolute garbage in comparison. Everyone bitches and moans about items, yet hasn't taken the time to get an enchanted counter-part of the items available. There -are- better items, why do you think you don't see everyone in generic garb #1000 selling things? Again, if the focus isn't on the RVT, please, remind me why pretty much every post has always been related back to it, whoopdy-do, they have +3 lock picks. Whats that, you want a high quality lock broken open *gasp* why not -RP- the same thing we are demanding of the RVT and hire them for a job?

A fair amount of hypocrisy going around here. Seriously.

EDIT: Also worth noting new high-end dungeons are being made/tweaked. Wait and see what goodies drop in those before you continue to cling to pre-conceived notions about how OP faction gear is.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Kaspar on January 17, 2013, 02:34:04 PM
Also note, the RVT has been selling 60% bags for -ages-. No one wants to buy them

I just bought 20.  :D
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 17, 2013, 02:42:26 PM
Ah man, buddy, calm down.

That hasn't been the point of thread. Stated day one. I want people to discuss factions in here, what could be improved, and all that jazz. On all of them. I note there are people here that have been bringing the RVT up, but I have seen a few clarifying posts. There is no need to become explosive, or point fingers and name names. Accusing people of being unknowing or nooby. I am very aware of enchanted goods - I am an enchanter. I think that has its own thread, it's own discussion on its place on the server, or what things we can look at for it.

Also It would be nice if the Vardo do offer these locksmithing services, to advertise them somewhere. I haven't seen this anywhere, though again, this does not mean it isn't happening.

It is better to talk these things out calmly.

-------

Remember guys, when posting, think things out and try to structure them calmly. We're buddies here.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Misted_Horror on January 17, 2013, 02:44:46 PM
The Vardo always offers these kinds of services, but they're not going to just advertise them. Once more, rumours have it that the RVT can find anything you need, and are rumoured to dabble in the ways of the supernatural to get it. Apologies Geig, but the majority of people do not seem to understand that compared to any semi-decent loot on the server that faction gear isn't that great.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Zhernebog on January 17, 2013, 02:45:56 PM
The RVT used to look after its own crafts, or would outsource. RP attempts at this thing have already been done. Also note that several people participating in DM events receive far better loot than anything that drops on the loot tables. There are relatively new PCs as well (they were created after I started). Also note, the RVT has been selling 60% bags for -ages-. No one wants to buy them, and the 60% bags can already be found in dungeons, yet again proving your point wrong. All I want to say is actually experience what is out there completely in the loot tables, and the RVT items look like absolute garbage in comparison. Everyone bitches and moans about items, yet hasn't taken the time to get an enchanted counter-part of the items available. There -are- better items, why do you think you don't see everyone in generic garb #1000 selling things? Again, if the focus isn't on the RVT, please, remind me why pretty much every post has always been related back to it, whoopdy-do, they have +3 lock picks. Whats that, you want a high quality lock broken open *gasp* why not -RP- the same thing we are demanding of the RVT and hire them for a job?

A fair amount of hypocrisy going around here. Seriously.

EDIT: Also worth noting new high-end dungeons are being made/tweaked. Wait and see what goodies drop in those before you continue to cling to pre-conceived notions about how OP faction gear is.

Your tone is rather rude and infantile, you may wish to cool off before posting a rant that needs to insult the reader to get a point across :b It's a video game no need to get your jimmies rustled.
Also you never address how the faction would cease to exist if other people had access to equivalent gear. And 60% bags do drop? My they must be quite the treasure if Ive never seen one for sale. Praytell where do they drop? And why is it so staggeringly enraging to share the fun? Everybody likes fun.

Second, I think it's great that the dev team is making new content(especially high end stuff) but much like my mountain made out of dragons that breathe hookers, it doesn't exist yet, and we're talking about what exists now.

Third Im faction enemy with the vardo. I can't hire you sneakthiefs unless youre ridiculously gullible hahaha
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Misted_Horror on January 17, 2013, 02:55:52 PM
Again, it's where IC has IC consequences. I know my tone is rather rude, but having several different people explain the same thing over and over can have that effect. Also, they can have access to equivalent gear, go out and dungeon/ninja like the rest of us have to. I think it's worth noting that the RVT gear seldom gets handed out, I mean I got a nifty sword, but compared to what drops on the loot-tables, it's on-par if not a little worse. I'd also like to point out that the reason most people don't see decent loot is that they farm areas that are at 30% spawn level, and everyone farms it, even if it's at 1% so it never builds up. If people farmed less, and dungeoned every now and then, everyone would have a lot of good loot. Also note, some factions have nice gear that the RVT doesn't have access to for sneaks, does that mean that the RVT should get access to it? The Gundarakites have some nifty hide gear, does that mean that everyone should get access to those? The Dawnbringers have a nifty spear at low levels, yet the only places that they drop are at level 5-6 areas.

Also worth noting I am not a member of the RVT any more. I'm just viewing my own opinions here. Several factions have nice things, and until everything is spayed out in to the loot tables, I see no reason for any specific faction to need them. Also note that more often than not the RVT employees aren't goons, there is also nothing saying that you can't ask a DM to posess an NPC so that you can mug it if you know it is in the RVT. There are many IG alternatives to things, and getting most of them is far easier than dungeon farming/ninja'ing if you're actually interested in the RP.

I think the main thing also is that many people don't have 'strong' builds to excel at the field that their character supposedly excels at. +8-+12 lockpicks drop like candy in the PoA sewers, below the Oprhanage in Barovia (past the hag) and in many other places. If you look about a few places and sample the seemingly random loot, you can typically tell based off of loot content what loot containers belong to what sub-category eg (Minor, Medium, Major) and then the other categories the devs have in place for items with uses, etc, etc. I just wish to stress the fact that faction gear should be irrelevant imo, as most of it is trash compared to loot you can obtain at level 8 if you form a well-rounded group.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: dutchy on January 17, 2013, 03:02:24 PM
Once it was 1.5k a bag now its 2k or more.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Norture on January 17, 2013, 03:49:43 PM
Once it was 1.5k a bag now its 2k or more.

As far as I know it's always been 2k. Jinx charged less because Jinx, but before then (and in everything I saw written from before I joined) it was 2k.

I think the baffling thing about this thread is the insane gear people are asking for their faction. I mean, really clerics? You guys can faceroll and win the game. Rogues are based around how much they can boost their skills, they are hands down the most gear-reliant class. It costs around 200k to gear out a rogue. Valkan's boots cost me over 100k alone. Vardo gear isn't best-in-slot equipment for most things, but it offers a starting point for rogues. It just makes sense to me that a faction would supply the tools for its members to be able to succeed at what the faction is supposed to be about.

Like, let's stop talking about the Vardo for a moment. If other factions could have skills on their gear, since that's what this is about-- Skill points on gear, what would those skills be? For cleric factions, would +3 healing and concentration suddenly make your gear more awesome?
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Lucadia on January 17, 2013, 03:59:02 PM
60pct bags drop all the time, usualy the ones I sell..are the ones I found.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Misted_Horror on January 17, 2013, 04:22:55 PM
Once it was 1.5k a bag now its 2k or more.

As far as I know it's always been 2k. Jinx charged less because Jinx, but before then (and in everything I saw written from before I joined) it was 2k.

I think the baffling thing about this thread is the insane gear people are asking for their faction. I mean, really clerics? You guys can faceroll and win the game. Rogues are based around how much they can boost their skills, they are hands down the most gear-reliant class. It costs around 200k to gear out a rogue. Valkan's boots cost me over 100k alone. Vardo gear isn't best-in-slot equipment for most things, but it offers a starting point for rogues. It just makes sense to me that a faction would supply the tools for its members to be able to succeed at what the faction is supposed to be about.

Like, let's stop talking about the Vardo for a moment. If other factions could have skills on their gear, since that's what this is about-- Skill points on gear, what would those skills be? For cleric factions, would +3 healing and concentration suddenly make your gear more awesome?

I'd agree with things like that.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 17, 2013, 04:25:53 PM
Rogues are not that gimped as people say. Gearwise their most important stuff is located outside factions. Hide and move silently stuff can be got everywhere. The Vardo do contain a boon however where no items for rogues actually exist. Lock picking and pick pocket. No where else can you get this bonus, nothing of even compare. A rogue should not have to join the Vardo to get that gear, to have that ability. But this isn't so much anyone's fault. Doesn't make Vardo cheesy or anything.

But this is why I argue that faction gear should be limited. There is nothing wrong for any faction to have a slight bonus. I understand the Vardo are structured around theft. I know how they are represented in the canon and I am aware that they have had a soft boom on our server that has given them a territorial expansion outside of the native Krezk. They aren't that big or powerful of an organization - especially in comparison to something like the Ezrite Church who receives a tithe (and this is just from tithes) of 10 copper, per annum, and have had this happen for over ninety years.

Though it is limited in some ways with the faction itself really being like 4, who work towards the same goal in different ways.

Or the Vallaki Garda who while being a feudal military-police of a Municipality and a regional militia for Barovia itself are so under equipped and are geared with stuff that makes steel crafted goods look like a +5 sword. I am sure the Ioneluses are going to have anyone outside of wartime conscripts equipped at least with steel tipped spears.

The gear and boons of factions should be about the same. I'm not saying they shouldn't have something that is key, or representative of their faction.

A sweet ass lock pick for the vardo.

A spear that aids the Morninglordians in battle against the dead.

A symbol or relic based around whatever sect of Ezra one comes from.

Free room and board, as well as training and "job opportunities" with advancement for some smelly Barovian peasant or foppish Dementlieuse Gendarme in the "police forces" around the world.

Stuff like that.

Gear and uniforms should be up to the players who run and police their factions outside of that, barring guidance from staff in times of silly-willy that I doubt would come up often, if at all. What a faction has should primarily be what the players put into it. I can see what players already can do - I have been and am involved in the community. I am part of factions. I have ran them before. But I really would rather see dynamics placed into what we put into a faction giving us our power and force.

I bring up other ideas too that could be interesting and not impossible to develop outside basic scripting. The ability to update our locks by paying into them, or upgrading npcs that show up in faction halls could be another interesting thing.

Increased garda patrols in areas where they should happen that keep the roads clear of bandits or monsters, extra fences for hot goods for Vardo, parishioners for Ezrites and Morninglordians, and so on and so forth. These would show up and go away with activity in a faction and their ability to 'pay for it'. This could also be influenced by DM plots.

But the goal is to make it so players rely on eachother, their work, and what they pay into it.

But that is me. That is what I think is cool.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: dutchy on January 17, 2013, 04:46:02 PM
Once it was 1.5k a bag now its 2k or more.

As far as I know it's always been 2k. Jinx charged less because Jinx, but before then (and in everything I saw written from before I joined) it was 2k.

I think the baffling thing about this thread is the insane gear people are asking for their faction. I mean, really clerics? You guys can faceroll and win the game. Rogues are based around how much they can boost their skills, they are hands down the most gear-reliant class. It costs around 200k to gear out a rogue. Valkan's boots cost me over 100k alone. Vardo gear isn't best-in-slot equipment for most things, but it offers a starting point for rogues. It just makes sense to me that a faction would supply the tools for its members to be able to succeed at what the faction is supposed to be about.

Like, let's stop talking about the Vardo for a moment. If other factions could have skills on their gear, since that's what this is about-- Skill points on gear, what would those skills be? For cleric factions, would +3 healing and concentration suddenly make your gear more awesome?

no am talking PRE jinx   and i am talking about the vallaki branch.

also youre right about the other skill points.

people already discussed a dog house in the guard faction board but i forgot the outcome  i think its low on the list or wasnt dooable.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 17, 2013, 04:48:31 PM
War hounds would be swag, too.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: RigorMortis on January 17, 2013, 05:18:16 PM
Once it was 1.5k a bag now its 2k or more.

As far as I know it's always been 2k. Jinx charged less because Jinx, but before then (and in everything I saw written from before I joined) it was 2k.

I think the baffling thing about this thread is the insane gear people are asking for their faction. I mean, really clerics? You guys can faceroll and win the game. Rogues are based around how much they can boost their skills, they are hands down the most gear-reliant class. It costs around 200k to gear out a rogue. Valkan's boots cost me over 100k alone. Vardo gear isn't best-in-slot equipment for most things, but it offers a starting point for rogues. It just makes sense to me that a faction would supply the tools for its members to be able to succeed at what the faction is supposed to be about.

Like, let's stop talking about the Vardo for a moment. If other factions could have skills on their gear, since that's what this is about-- Skill points on gear, what would those skills be? For cleric factions, would +3 healing and concentration suddenly make your gear more awesome?

In my post I was not demanding we have the same gear, rather that this gear seems to be too readily available to other Outlanders that disrespect the Faith of the object they hold, or use it against the faction by demanding that they are better for having the object.

It isn't about the awsomeness of gear, it just seems that the vardo comes with, just as you said, Starting equipment for each and every slot, no other faction has this benefit, not only that but thier toolset is almost completely universal. I stated that I only wished that not only would people show more respect towards the Morninglordian's faction items, as of right now, they are everyone and almost none of them are carried by morninglordians.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Norture on January 17, 2013, 06:00:57 PM
Vardo gear is most certainly not universal. It's for thieves. Lockpicking is for breaking into things. Setting and disarming traps aren't universal either. Pickpocketing isn't universal.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Misted_Horror on January 17, 2013, 06:07:07 PM
Vardo gear is most certainly not universal. It's for thieves. Lockpicking is for breaking into things. Setting and disarming traps aren't universal either. Pickpocketing isn't universal.

Exactly, also worth noting you don't simply get it given to you either, like the old days, as was said earlier.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Sidhel on January 17, 2013, 07:20:00 PM
Vardo gear is most certainly not universal. It's for thieves. Lockpicking is for breaking into things. Setting and disarming traps aren't universal either. Pickpocketing isn't universal.

Exactly, also worth noting you don't simply get it given to you either, like the old days, as was said earlier.

I'd be more worried about nerfing the oh-so-overpowered enchanted gear before even taking a look at Vardo's rogue-specific stuff. I'd love me a full set of +21/+11/+11 saves.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 17, 2013, 07:25:00 PM
Please take that to the enchant thread. That is its own set thing and must be discussed separately. If you could be so kind.

Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: BalorVale on January 17, 2013, 08:24:13 PM
Vardo gear is most certainly not universal. It's for thieves. Lockpicking is for breaking into things. Setting and disarming traps aren't universal either. Pickpocketing isn't universal.

Lockpicking is picked up by almost every character on the server with spare skillpoints. Almost no other skill is done in the same manner so vigorously cross-classed. Do not deny that lockpicking is not universal, it is as universal and even more useful then the skills "heal" and even moreso than Influence. Because other then hiding from the NPC Garda, not many people acknowledge social rolls, myself included.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: dutchy on January 17, 2013, 10:35:11 PM
we all cannot deny what balor said but to be the devils advocate.

have we seen what crowbars and some str do?  it breaks more then it opens.

also i figured that nearly all blades in the loot table are these day's +1's   how does that compare to faction gear?  i wouldnt even wipe my butt with a guard halberd (not that thats smart thing to do cause of the sharpness)
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Geiger on January 18, 2013, 09:25:24 AM
I updated the first post with a clearer idea from me that I have developed throughout the course of this thread. I also would urge to focus less on the Vardo because of how they feel about the faction, but more on how equipment in factions in general might need be looked at. The Vardo themselves haven't done anything wrong, no one has - but there may be a point to be had about general faction balance and development. :)
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Zhernebog on January 18, 2013, 04:53:25 PM
we all cannot deny what balor said but to be the devils advocate.

have we seen what crowbars and some str do?  it breaks more then it opens.

also i figured that nearly all blades in the loot table are these day's +1's   how does that compare to faction gear?  i wouldnt even wipe my butt with a guard halberd (not that thats smart thing to do cause of the sharpness)
Sidenote but I would like to see the str checks moved down or less items broken. Unfortunately most of the nicest stuff is breakable.

That being said, how would we assist the garda faction?
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Legion XXI on January 18, 2013, 05:18:42 PM

Sidenote but I would like to see the str checks moved down or less items broken. Unfortunately most of the nicest stuff is breakable.


   In that case, I want AC and AB of spawns lowered where they are easier to defeat as a non-frontline class.  Sometimes my non-full-ab-progression-character has trouble defeating some of the harder enemies by himself, and I don't want to party up with tanks or hitters, I want to be able to solo the whole dungeon so I can get both the chests AND the xp.

  With that in mind, I would say that the reason things like this exist are so that you can team up with (in this case) rogues to get what you want.  This is not just about rogues, but since that is the recurring topic i'll indulge you.   Rogues have a lot of their power in skill points.  It's why they get so many, and why so many skills are available to them.  By allowing other classes to get the same result (picking locks) without any of the skill points or items other than a crowbar and the high STR you already had, you are taking that away from them.  I'm glad items break on fail, it provides a much needed drawback to brute force.  I think parties should have to bring along a lock picker and trap handler to get higher end loot.  I mean, as a rogue, I have to bring a whole team of other people to kill things in the higher level areas and get xp.   It's basic teamwork.

   I personally like that some factions are given certain gear in able to be better at something.  It's not WAY better, just a little better.  I know plenty of people that can hit the highest DC locks without the Vardo gear.  Just like plenty of clerics are going to do just fine without the top-end religious items.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: dutchy on January 18, 2013, 05:28:10 PM
we all cannot deny what balor said but to be the devils advocate.

have we seen what crowbars and some str do?  it breaks more then it opens.

also i figured that nearly all blades in the loot table are these day's +1's   how does that compare to faction gear?  i wouldnt even wipe my butt with a guard halberd (not that thats smart thing to do cause of the sharpness)
Sidenote but I would like to see the str checks moved down or less items broken. Unfortunately most of the nicest stuff is breakable.

That being said, how would we assist the garda faction?

for example in the past a guard or an outsider  contacted the guards and created a helmet as they lacked one and now they have helmets with additional bonuses.

my advice is if your a master smith or somthing " create"  something trough rp and request it as an item and it might be adapted into the gear of a faction that way you somehow do sort of leave a legacy :)

as for legion- zhern and i  where talking about the fact allot of chars have a rogue lvl or atleast open lock cause str checks break to much and is thus a louwsy thing to have and open lock is a serious investment on this server.
Title: Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
Post by: Zhernebog on January 18, 2013, 08:22:18 PM

Sidenote but I would like to see the str checks moved down or less items broken. Unfortunately most of the nicest stuff is breakable.


   In that case, I want AC and AB of spawns lowered where they are easier to defeat as a non-frontline class.  Sometimes my non-full-ab-progression-character has trouble defeating some of the harder enemies by himself, and I don't want to party up with tanks or hitters, I want to be able to solo the whole dungeon so I can get both the chests AND the xp.

  With that in mind, I would say that the reason things like this exist are so that you can team up with (in this case) rogues to get what you want.  This is not just about rogues, but since that is the recurring topic i'll indulge you.   Rogues have a lot of their power in skill points.  It's why they get so many, and why so many skills are available to them.  By allowing other classes to get the same result (picking locks) without any of the skill points or items other than a crowbar and the high STR you already had, you are taking that away from them.  I'm glad items break on fail, it provides a much needed drawback to brute force.  I think parties should have to bring along a lock picker and trap handler to get higher end loot.  I mean, as a rogue, I have to bring a whole team of other people to kill things in the higher level areas and get xp.   It's basic teamwork.

   I personally like that some factions are given certain gear in able to be better at something.  It's not WAY better, just a little better.  I know plenty of people that can hit the highest DC locks without the Vardo gear.  Just like plenty of clerics are going to do just fine without the top-end religious items.
If I want to even get to chests in a dungeon, I need a team. You do not.
I'm saying with the overabundance and availability of lockpicking, high str characters are shoehorned into losing points in battle skills(discipline/antagonize/etc) in favor of lockpicking since the str check is so incredibly worthless on anything but doors. And that's only because doors don't hold fragile items. The give-and-take of opting for the str check would be great, if the deck wasn't so ridiculously stacked against using it. You're playing russian roulette with five bullets. You always get a roll, but either you break everything or you get nothing...because you broke everything.
Why don't we apply the break chance to lockpicking as well? That way characters(Read:Nearly everyone) who opted to use their abundance of skillpoints instead of spending statistics in strength have a balanced playing field?

I mean the flow of progression is tipped in your favor.
Rogue: Ninjaloot->Become statistically/monetarily stronger->actively work in a party, or invisibly follow one around on the hide/sneak multiplane
Warrior: Party up->become statistically stronger->Party up
We should not be rewarding skill dumping more than teamwork.