Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Snowflame on January 13, 2013, 10:59:52 AM

Title: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 13, 2013, 10:59:52 AM
I noticed PoTM has it's own server specific list of feats. I've been experimenting with ideas involving rogue for a long time, I know I've wanted to make a rogue character for a long time but I can't find something that pleases me or hasn't already been done. I would like to suggest that maybe a feat be added to flavor them up a bit more.

Feint is an ability in Pen and Paper where a user may bluff (I suppose in this case it might be influence or antagonize or maybe even parry) their opponent into striking them in a place where they trick them into believing they are vulnerable. This trick leaves the opponent without their dex mod for one round leaving them open to sneak attack if their opponent would fail the charisma based check.

I always liked the idea in other DND variants and Neverwinter Nights 2 as well as table top. It's not often that you see the rogue as a sort of cocky knife fighter or dueling charlatan as opposed to being someone who is simply "dodgy" and likes to hide and steal things.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: aprogressivist on January 13, 2013, 11:57:11 AM
It would be cool to see this; I have always loved Feint-based rogues myself. But unfortunately NWN 1 rolled in all those subtleties of the pen and paper game into the Knockdown feat...
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 13, 2013, 05:32:57 PM
It would be cool to see this; I have always loved Feint-based rogues myself. But unfortunately NWN 1 rolled in all those subtleties of the pen and paper game into the Knockdown feat...

I always felt that knockdown was more inline with bull rush and trip. I mostly suggest this cause I'd like to see more variety with characters, it's one of the things that first drew me to dungeons and dragons tabletop. The fact that if you sat down looked at the numbers, then combined that with clever character creation. You could make almost any type of warrior you'd like to see. Thing is Rogues here are mostly skill monkeys or highly dexterous ninja type people.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Silverfox on January 13, 2013, 05:34:15 PM
Moar variety is always welcome but...

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate a moment. Who is going to do it and how?
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: aprogressivist on January 13, 2013, 05:41:15 PM
Oh yeah, totally in agreement with you. I merely meant that Knockdown was the original NWN developer's way of doing "fancy combat moves" like Bullrush, Feint, etc.

It'd be cool to see more diversity of such things but you really need a developer to chime in to say how feasible it is...
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: herkles on January 13, 2013, 05:46:34 PM
aprogressivist, is bull-rush the move where you quickly charge your foe? if so I would adore such a thing. then fencers could do fleches! :D  :allears: :cloud9:
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 13, 2013, 05:50:17 PM
Oh yeah, totally in agreement with you. I merely meant that Knockdown was the original NWN developer's way of doing "fancy combat moves" like Bullrush, Feint, etc.

It'd be cool to see more diversity of such things but you really need a developer to chime in to say how feasible it is...

Well you know, that's what the thread is for ;)

A lot of things don't really work with the system. Although feint should work fine, pretty much it's a standard action that provokes attack of op (unless you have greater feint) if they fail a will (?) then they are considered flatfoot for one round receiving no dex bonus to AC.

This games only weakness I felt was general lack of classes. They got the entire PHB but that was it. With the PHB you can do a lot, but at the same time only so much. One of the few spots were NWN2 actually beat out 1 was in options. Warlock would have been super sweet to play in NWN1 but i'm not gonna get off topic :P

Just sayin' diversity makes a lot of the game and RP aspect of characters. After all no two people are the same right? so should every rogue be exactly the same? Either it's a Skill monkey/dex build or it's a cheap way for fighters to get tumble ranks :P
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 13, 2013, 05:52:46 PM
aprogressivist, is bull-rush the move where you quickly charge your foe? if so I would adore such a thing. then fencers could do fleches! :D  :allears: :cloud9:

Not quite. A charge is a charge. Charges could probably work here but they'd be buggy and annoying as hell... Charge wasn't even added to PRC or NWN2.

A Bullrush is like a charge... only you charge them do damage and you push them back five feet.

In PNP you would do this to push someone either into a group of enemies or perhaps off of a cliff etc etc...

It wouldn't knock them down necessarily though. A Trip is what we would refer to as NWN's Knock down.

Speaking of trip... I really wish they added spiked chain to this game :(.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Zhernebog on January 13, 2013, 08:15:05 PM
Feint is an ability in Pen and Paper where a user may bluff (I suppose in this case it might be influence or antagonize or maybe even parry) their opponent into striking them in a place where they trick them into believing they are vulnerable. This trick leaves the opponent without their dex mod for one round
This is a neat trick.
leaving them open to sneak attack if their opponent would fail the charisma based check.
This is broken.

Actually, to expand upon it, it'd be like knockdown but for bards. Could it apply to all classes? That'd be fun.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 13, 2013, 08:43:23 PM
Feint is an ability in Pen and Paper where a user may bluff (I suppose in this case it might be influence or antagonize or maybe even parry) their opponent into striking them in a place where they trick them into believing they are vulnerable. This trick leaves the opponent without their dex mod for one round
This is a neat trick.
leaving them open to sneak attack if their opponent would fail the charisma based check.
This is broken.

Actually, to expand upon it, it'd be like knockdown but for bards. Could it apply to all classes? That'd be fun.

Well yeah any class could "Feint" an attack. That's always an option but other class types typically don't do it. It's mostly for rogues so they can get SA in combat without needing HiPS or invisibility or Darkness. It's pretty damn useful the downside being that it only works on certain targets (Means you can't do this with like animals and things, basically it's like a mind affecting spell). I wouldn't say too broke either because it does leave you open for an attack when you do the "Feint".

Feint really only serves combative bards who want to hit higher, although really I wouldn't see why a bard would bother as they already get quite a bit of AB bonus from their songs, and charismatic rogues who are more like charlatans and tricksters and things like that. Talkers not stalkers. It's also worth noting that Feint is not usable by ranged weaponry. You have to be using a melee in order to make use of it. I'll link the SRD since I kinda did a poor job of explaining feint other than "Cha rogue get da sneak attack!"

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint

Alright seems I had feint's specific rules almost wrong completely. It would seem that it would be a Bluff Check (Influence/Antagonize) vs a players Sense Motive check (Spot/search?). Against non humanoids -4 to the DC against animals with only int 2 and basically really dumb stuff -8 and against unintelligent creatures it is impossible. It's a standard action and with improved it becomes a move action.

As for other classes I could see doing it would like... Paladin but... It kinda kills the image of a paladin to pull a feint. Nothing in the rules that says he can't do it but, it just seems odd. Like you got this knight in shining gold armor that fights for justice, fairness, and all that goody goody crap. I sincerely doubt a Paladin would ever try to pull a cheap shot simply because of moral ethics. I mean that's literally what Feint is, it's a dirty trick. A Blackguard I might see doing this since evil usually goes down really low just to get their way. RP wise I just wouldn't see paladins doing it, but RAW (Rules As Written) they can.

Maybe this "Feint" could be a reworking of the "Dirty Fighting" Feat. You know the one that nobody takes cause it's dumb. unless of course you're playing 1-5 (but who does that?).

Pretty much I see this as being a good feat for characters who "want to win" and don't care about morals necessarily, or a deceptive duelist.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: TheJustLawOfShamash on January 14, 2013, 02:23:47 PM
This would definitely require something to prevent you from spamming it.  This also raises the tricky question of what counters the bluff check, as we don't have PnP's Sense Motive.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 14, 2013, 04:15:30 PM
This would definitely require something to prevent you from spamming it.  This also raises the tricky question of what counters the bluff check, as we don't have PnP's Sense Motive.

Well it's a standard action to use the ability which provokes an attack of opportunity. With the improved it would negate that. so pretty much that's sort of a counter via spam cause it also gives enemies an extra attack, when you do it. A good NWN/POTM change would be having it be a full round action regardless, with the improved only negating the attack of op. but that's a bit rough imo.

The counter for the bluff would probably be spot. Which makes sense. Sense Motive is a Wisdom based skill where you try to figure out someones intent... Spot I think would be the closest thing because, you might be able to see through their bluff so to speak. I believe in NWN2 it's also spot since I don't remember them adding the sense motive skill there either.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: What does the scanner see on January 14, 2013, 07:43:18 PM
I see a lot of room for abuse with this. Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful? The new parry system already favors them vastly over everyone else. Rogues get their sneak attack often enough as is and I think everyone is neglecting to mention that we have a similar ability to this already 'Taunt'.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 14, 2013, 08:11:27 PM
I see a lot of room for abuse with this. Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful? The new parry system already favors them vastly over everyone else. Rogues get their sneak attack often enough as is and I think everyone is neglecting to mention that we have a similar ability to this already 'Taunt'.

Taunt is similar but not quite the same either. A taunt is when you anger someone to be reckless... and they lose some AC. It's more of the fighters variant of this.

"Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful?"

There was just a thread about a guy who manages +41 listen with no ranks but with all items. Rogues in general are actually a very weak class, their only worth something to be scared of when they actually manage to get the jump on a squishy character, and even then. it's not too hard to actually survive a sneak attack. Rogues in general tend to be a rather weak class. While they may get a lot of damage on sneak attacks, once you do that one attack... that's pretty much it. Rogues are really only equipped with that and a high amount of skills. Think of them as the "Batman" class. Lots of gadgets and mundane utility, however unlike Gotham's caped crusader they hold various weaknesses including a lower AB progression, d6 hit die, access to only certain arms and armor without blowing off a feat on them, and of course VERY weak saving throws. Rogue saving throws are so weak, they actually die to phantasmal killer. Typically in PNP and in Neverwinter it's kind of considered "embarrassing" to die to phantasmal killer. This is because you have two chances to save versus death, the two save throws are Fortitude and Will. For most one or the other is actually the classes strong save. Rogue get's none of these as a strong save, instead he get's reflex which really only helps with traps (that I hope he is capable of disarming...) and Wizards who cast fireball spells. That's a waste though since Improved Evasion just kinda ignores fireball to begin with.

As a combatant rogue is a rather weak class. This ability would also only really appeal to rogues that are actually charisma based. Can a rogue do it all at once? not really... Rogues already have slight Multiple Ability Dependency. Requiring Dex, Str, Con, Int. They need all of those in some way shape or form. typically one has to get dumped out... so you have dexterity based rogues and that's pretty much it. It's jsut an alternative function for rogue all in all.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Ipes on January 14, 2013, 08:27:01 PM
Yep, a Rogue only has that one chance to do the sneak attack and then thats the only damage he'll get off when his opponent engages him.  The low AB makes it so that you really can't knockdown effectively. A charisma based feint feat or skill that would make players vulnerable to backstabs would add more flavour to the class without making it any more powerful, becaue to get the charisma you'd have to dump stat another class to avoid severe Multiple Ability Dependency.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Amon-Si on January 14, 2013, 08:38:56 PM
I have found rogues to actually be the most dangerous class on the server, in both PvP and PvM, when played effectively and to their strengths.
When I step out of the temple with my high level sorceress, It's rogues that I worry about, not clerics who I can dispell into uselessness, Not fighters who I can freeze in their tracks, and not unprepared mages who are statues in waiting. It's the rogue that I can't see and who can knock my health down in one hit, and if they are hasted with two weapons, they can get a good three or more sneak attacks off at once. A class is neither weak nor strong, how you play that class counts.

*Addendum*
Don't get into a straight fight with a rogue and then try to compare them to a fighter.
I saw one of those greatest warrior simulation shows the other day that annoyed me.
It had a spartan fighting a Ninja, the Spartan won because for some crazy reason the ninja didn't just poison his ass.
THAT's the deal with rogues.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Nurlithion on January 14, 2013, 09:42:02 PM
I don't feel we need a new system for this. My fighter/rogue char Soren wasn't a very good fighter by itself, since I "wasted" points in INT and CHA to justify the personality I wanted for him; I leveraged this by putting lots of points into the social skills and UMD, and now he's a very capable warrior. Antagonize is easily boosted with items, if you're willing to sacrifice some other bonuses, and it gets up to -6 AC on the enemy, which is usually enough for a Knockdown after two or three tries, which then sets you up for a full round of sneak attacks on the enemy.

Yes, this is much more work than just charging in and attacking, but that planning and manoeuvering until you have the upper hand is what playing a rogue is all about.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 14, 2013, 09:52:31 PM
I have found rogues to actually be the most dangerous class on the server, in both PvP and PvM, when played effectively and to their strengths.
When I step out of the temple with my high level sorceress, It's rogues that I worry about, not clerics who I can dispell into uselessness, Not fighters who I can freeze in their tracks, and not unprepared mages who are statues in waiting. It's the rogue that I can't see and who can knock my health down in one hit, and if they are hasted with two weapons, they can get a good three or more sneak attacks off at once. A class is neither weak nor strong, how you play that class counts.

*Addendum*
Don't get into a straight fight with a rogue and then try to compare them to a fighter.
I saw one of those greatest warrior simulation shows the other day that annoyed me.
It had a spartan fighting a Ninja, the Spartan won because for some crazy reason the ninja didn't just poison his ass.
THAT's the deal with rogues.

I'm not quite sure you know how this works then :S... not even the dual weild should really matter.

Level 20 a rogue gets 9d6 SA. When doing dice it's best to use the average, the average of a d6 is 3. pretty much half. 3*9= 27 Damage. plus their weapon which is more than likley a 1d4 or 1d6. For this example we will say he munchkined out and went short swords or rapier. so 3. chances are he has little to no strength but i'll give him a 10. so he doesn't negative.  basically... 30 damage, flat footed. against a level 20 rogue for an SA.

How much con does your sorcerer have? O.o ...I don't suppose your sorceress is an elf either? Rogues are probably the most vulnerable to magic. even if they do hit you with sneak attack. My wizard was almost assassinated one day. I got hit by a dual weild sneak attack from a player either a level over or equal to my level. did a good bit of damage, didn't kill me. If it was just him I would have ended him right there and then, but it wasn't so I fled. While running away I left behind Evards Black Tentacles. Rogues have crap saves there fore paralyzed and took multiple damage. the chase scene ended with me getting Barley Injured from sneak attack, going down to injured when shot 2-3 times with a crossbow. That rogue on the other hand almost died as I was fleeing. I wasn't talking about a straight fight either...  Rogues need the shadows but once they pull their sneak attack. That's it. you are aware that they are there and then they gotta bolt. Running around corners trying to spam stealth doesn't work, if you have HiPS that is good but you need to apply for a prestige class in order to get HiPS. Straight up vanilla rogues kinda herped. It sounds as if your sorceress simply doesn't have enough constitution. At least from my understanding because not even a level 20 sneak attack is enough to eliminate all of, you know... not even just my wizard. Some of my level 2's can survive that!

To say there is no such thing as a weak nor strong class is, for lack of a better word "bull". There's always has been a meta, and powerful classes. Classes were even purposely made more powerful than others simply because it's the general universal lore of the world. The man who is magic is going to be stronger who isn't. That's just facts, it's just flat out numbers. You even said it yourself. Your sorceress can just debuff clerics, you can handle fighters just fine, it's over my head how you can't handle rogues. Especially if you can handle clerics, whoa re amazingly powerful on PoTM for a huge variety of reasons which I don't need to explain since i'm sure a good ton of the player base can explain "Melee Cleric".

Casters run the game. That's how it's been and it's been purposely written that way because that is simply how the game was designed. It was designed for role playing not for balance. If the concern was balance then you'd be better off looking into a more competitive game or world of warcraft or something. Clerics, Wizards, Sorc's, and Druids all have an answer to the mundane classes. They are very powerful characters, that's why when I DM tabletops I take people who play those classes into very good consideration to make sure everyone else has a chance to role play some and feel useful even though the wizard can do just about everything the rogue can only better.

I have heard of that fighting show, and that episode. Deadliest Warrior or some crap. People get overly buttmad about that show all the time. There was also more than one fight. The Ninja won every time he successfully got the jump on the Spartan, in a straight fight however the ninja would lose simply because he couldn't bypass the Spartans shield. Oriental Blades were sharp enough back then to cut through flesh like a hot knife through butter, however they really weren't meant for handling armor that much.

Going to just say however, we are getting horribly off the topic of "Feint" as an combat maneuver. It probably won't make that huge a difference to be honest. It will simply create a new type of play style for rogue that would be more fitting for certain types of characters. Since nobody is going to power dex and charisma. you pick one or the other. You could probably munchkin it out, but are we not here to role play?

More Options = More Possibilities. Imagine if you were only allowed three classes, out of the bunch we have access to. Then imagine if you only had access to: Power Attack, and expertise as combat maneuvers. Kinda boring, no disarm? no knockdown? Classes, Feats, and Class features serve as tools for helping you grant powers and playstyles that fit your character. There is always a downside to adding too much stuff. Just think if the only three playable classes were Rogue, Wizard, Fighter; and that feat choices were much smaller. Oh and no multiclassing. It's what makes Dungeons and Dragons so revolution. You build your own hero/villain.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: What does the scanner see on January 14, 2013, 09:53:39 PM
I see a lot of room for abuse with this. Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful? The new parry system already favors them vastly over everyone else. Rogues get their sneak attack often enough as is and I think everyone is neglecting to mention that we have a similar ability to this already 'Taunt'.

Taunt is similar but not quite the same either. A taunt is when you anger someone to be reckless... and they lose some AC. It's more of the fighters variant of this.

"Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful?"

There was just a thread about a guy who manages +41 listen with no ranks but with all items. Rogues in general are actually a very weak class, their only worth something to be scared of when they actually manage to get the jump on a squishy character, and even then. it's not too hard to actually survive a sneak attack. Rogues in general tend to be a rather weak class. While they may get a lot of damage on sneak attacks, once you do that one attack... that's pretty much it. Rogues are really only equipped with that and a high amount of skills. Think of them as the "Batman" class. Lots of gadgets and mundane utility, however unlike Gotham's caped crusader they hold various weaknesses including a lower AB progression, d6 hit die, access to only certain arms and armor without blowing off a feat on them, and of course VERY weak saving throws. Rogue saving throws are so weak, they actually die to phantasmal killer. Typically in PNP and in Neverwinter it's kind of considered "embarrassing" to die to phantasmal killer. This is because you have two chances to save versus death, the two save throws are Fortitude and Will. For most one or the other is actually the classes strong save. Rogue get's none of these as a strong save, instead he get's reflex which really only helps with traps (that I hope he is capable of disarming...) and Wizards who cast fireball spells. That's a waste though since Improved Evasion just kinda ignores fireball to begin with.

As a combatant rogue is a rather weak class. This ability would also only really appeal to rogues that are actually charisma based. Can a rogue do it all at once? not really... Rogues already have slight Multiple Ability Dependency. Requiring Dex, Str, Con, Int. They need all of those in some way shape or form. typically one has to get dumped out... so you have dexterity based rogues and that's pretty much it. It's jsut an alternative function for rogue all in all.

Rogue a weak class? No. They can pull off their sneak attack -every- attack if they are smart. Rogues are not meant to be tanks, that has been the case since they were called "thieves" they are support classes. They are the tricks, the picks, the sneaks, the disarmers, the cheats. They are not tanks. Rogues, like fighters, have to multiclass. And basicing an entire argument off them falling to Phantasmal Killer is hardly a good point given they entirely ignore any spell with a reflex save. Let's not forget that only three levels in Rogue is pretty much sufficient to run down most trapped corridors and laugh at the entire collective trap collection. If you're worried about your saves vs. spells put some points into spellcraft (I AM! I'm even paying the cross class for it too. It's worth every point). Some of the most powerful characters on the server are rogues or splash rogues. Who? Amaril, Cervantes, Jinx (If buffed), SHINZO! Woo, for Shinzo!

All Rogues need to be devastating is someone else attacking the same target or improved knockdown. They don't need more abilities. If anyone does? It's Fighters.

Edit: Crippling Strike. Nuff said.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 14, 2013, 09:57:04 PM
I don't feel we need a new system for this. My fighter/rogue char Soren wasn't a very good fighter by itself, since I "wasted" points in INT and CHA to justify the personality I wanted for him; I leveraged this by putting lots of points into the social skills and UMD, and now he's a very capable warrior. Antagonize is easily boosted with items, if you're willing to sacrifice some other bonuses, and it gets up to -6 AC on the enemy, which is usually enough for a Knockdown after two or three tries, which then sets you up for a full round of sneak attacks on the enemy.

Yes, this is much more work than just charging in and attacking, but that planning and manoeuvering until you have the upper hand is what playing a rogue is all about.

That is a very good point. It's actually quite a bit of work, and could work out for them altough such a manuever isn't necessarily in their favor. Rogues don't usually get an extremly good ab. They have medium AB progression like clerics and druids do. A knock down is made with the attack roll vs the opponents discipline. It could happen for a rogue not as likely. Such a maneuver also keeps an enemy from attacking should you successfully knock them down. where as a feint doesn't prevent them from attacking, it just confuses them into attacking you in such a way that it would leave their defenses vulnerable, so they can still smack you around. but yes I see what you mean.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Ipes on January 14, 2013, 10:02:17 PM
I see a lot of room for abuse with this. Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful? The new parry system already favors them vastly over everyone else. Rogues get their sneak attack often enough as is and I think everyone is neglecting to mention that we have a similar ability to this already 'Taunt'.

Taunt is similar but not quite the same either. A taunt is when you anger someone to be reckless... and they lose some AC. It's more of the fighters variant of this.

"Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful?"

There was just a thread about a guy who manages +41 listen with no ranks but with all items. Rogues in general are actually a very weak class, their only worth something to be scared of when they actually manage to get the jump on a squishy character, and even then. it's not too hard to actually survive a sneak attack. Rogues in general tend to be a rather weak class. While they may get a lot of damage on sneak attacks, once you do that one attack... that's pretty much it. Rogues are really only equipped with that and a high amount of skills. Think of them as the "Batman" class. Lots of gadgets and mundane utility, however unlike Gotham's caped crusader they hold various weaknesses including a lower AB progression, d6 hit die, access to only certain arms and armor without blowing off a feat on them, and of course VERY weak saving throws. Rogue saving throws are so weak, they actually die to phantasmal killer. Typically in PNP and in Neverwinter it's kind of considered "embarrassing" to die to phantasmal killer. This is because you have two chances to save versus death, the two save throws are Fortitude and Will. For most one or the other is actually the classes strong save. Rogue get's none of these as a strong save, instead he get's reflex which really only helps with traps (that I hope he is capable of disarming...) and Wizards who cast fireball spells. That's a waste though since Improved Evasion just kinda ignores fireball to begin with.

As a combatant rogue is a rather weak class. This ability would also only really appeal to rogues that are actually charisma based. Can a rogue do it all at once? not really... Rogues already have slight Multiple Ability Dependency. Requiring Dex, Str, Con, Int. They need all of those in some way shape or form. typically one has to get dumped out... so you have dexterity based rogues and that's pretty much it. It's jsut an alternative function for rogue all in all.

Rogue a weak class? No. They can pull off their sneak attack -every- attack if they are smart. Rogues are not meant to be tanks, that has been the case since they were called "thieves" they are support classes. They are the tricks, the picks, the sneaks, the disarmers, the cheats. They are not tanks. Rogues, like fighters, have to multiclass. And basicing an entire argument off them falling to Phantasmal Killer is hardly a good point given they entirely ignore any spell with a reflex save. Let's not forget that only three levels in Rogue is pretty much sufficient to run down most trapped corridors and laugh at the entire collective trap collection. If you're worried about your saves vs. spells put some points into spellcraft (I AM! I'm even paying the cross class for it too. It's worth every point). Some of the most powerful characters on the server are rogues or splash rogues. Who? Amaril, Cervantes, Jinx (If buffed), SHINZO! Woo, for Shinzo!

All Rogues need to be devastating is someone else attacking the same target or improved knockdown. They don't need more abilities. If anyone does? It's Fighters.

Edit: Crippling Strike. Nuff said.

Rogues are definately tanks, with the uncapped dex bonus to ac and parry, and the int for expertise feats. There's nothing to stop someone from just changing their target to the rogue and nullifying any sneak attack dps he's going to get, so you may aswell be tanky when they focus you. Rogues get tumble, two weapon defence, You even said that they get all this tanking stuf earlier as one of the reasons they were supposedly "OP". Contradictin yourself bro
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Amon-Si on January 14, 2013, 10:14:14 PM
Spoiler: show
Quote
Quote
How much con does your sorcerer have? O.o ...I don't suppose your sorceress is an elf either? Rogues are probably the most vulnerable to magic. even if they do hit you with sneak attack. My wizard was almost assassinated one day. I got hit by a dual weild sneak attack from a player either a level over or equal to my level. did a good bit of damage, didn't kill me. If it was just him I would have ended him right there and then, but it wasn't so I fled. While running away I left behind Evards Black Tentacles. Rogues have crap saves there fore paralyzed and took multiple damage. the chase scene ended with me getting Barley Injured from sneak attack, going down to injured when shot 2-3 times with a crossbow. That rogue on the other hand almost died as I was fleeing. I wasn't talking about a straight fight either...  Rogues need the shadows but once they pull their sneak attack. That's it. you are aware that they are there and then they gotta bolt. Running around corners trying to spam stealth doesn't work, if you have HiPS that is good but you need to apply for a prestige class in order to get HiPS. Straight up vanilla rogues kinda herped. It sounds as if your sorceress simply doesn't have enough constitution. At least from my understanding because not even a level 20 sneak attack is enough to eliminate all of, you know... not even just my wizard. Some of my level 2's can survive that!

To say there is no such thing as a weak nor strong class is, for lack of a better word "bull". There's always has been a meta, and powerful classes. Classes were even purposely made more powerful than others simply because it's the general universal lore of the world. The man who is magic is going to be stronger who isn't. That's just facts, it's just flat out numbers. You even said it yourself. Your sorceress can just debuff clerics, you can handle fighters just fine, it's over my head how you can't handle rogues. Especially if you can handle clerics, whoa re amazingly powerful on PoTM for a huge variety of reasons which I don't need to explain since i'm sure a good ton of the player base can explain "Melee Cleric".


My sorceress has 68 hp at level 17 ;D because she's an RP build and not a battle mage. (She started off a waitress for goodness' sakes)
No offence to the player, but they didn't use their rogue correctly. Sure we can go by averages, if you like, let's try a properly prepared rogue sneak attack set, shall we? Also assuming only 10 str:
9d6 sneak, 1d6+2 Normal damage, 1d12 Varnish, all attacks in the first round are sneak attacks with a 40% crit chance. I'm not going to tell you how this is done, but I'm being conservative here, and yes, those sneak attacks are guarenteed on an unprepared target (Who else would you fight?)
So that's 9d6+1d6+1d12+2 times five with two crits, bringing us to the lovely potential of 13-84 damage per hit, let's average that to about 40, just to be kind. It's still 200 for one round.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Ipes on January 14, 2013, 10:39:16 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/4CmI0.jpg)
(http://static2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/I+_ee2eee61ce2eb979157e8cfcb27ad489.gif)  (http://www.gifsoup.com/view2/1191763/laughing-puppets-o.gif)
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: What does the scanner see on January 14, 2013, 11:14:58 PM
I see a lot of room for abuse with this. Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful? The new parry system already favors them vastly over everyone else. Rogues get their sneak attack often enough as is and I think everyone is neglecting to mention that we have a similar ability to this already 'Taunt'.

Taunt is similar but not quite the same either. A taunt is when you anger someone to be reckless... and they lose some AC. It's more of the fighters variant of this.

"Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful?"

There was just a thread about a guy who manages +41 listen with no ranks but with all items. Rogues in general are actually a very weak class, their only worth something to be scared of when they actually manage to get the jump on a squishy character, and even then. it's not too hard to actually survive a sneak attack. Rogues in general tend to be a rather weak class. While they may get a lot of damage on sneak attacks, once you do that one attack... that's pretty much it. Rogues are really only equipped with that and a high amount of skills. Think of them as the "Batman" class. Lots of gadgets and mundane utility, however unlike Gotham's caped crusader they hold various weaknesses including a lower AB progression, d6 hit die, access to only certain arms and armor without blowing off a feat on them, and of course VERY weak saving throws. Rogue saving throws are so weak, they actually die to phantasmal killer. Typically in PNP and in Neverwinter it's kind of considered "embarrassing" to die to phantasmal killer. This is because you have two chances to save versus death, the two save throws are Fortitude and Will. For most one or the other is actually the classes strong save. Rogue get's none of these as a strong save, instead he get's reflex which really only helps with traps (that I hope he is capable of disarming...) and Wizards who cast fireball spells. That's a waste though since Improved Evasion just kinda ignores fireball to begin with.

As a combatant rogue is a rather weak class. This ability would also only really appeal to rogues that are actually charisma based. Can a rogue do it all at once? not really... Rogues already have slight Multiple Ability Dependency. Requiring Dex, Str, Con, Int. They need all of those in some way shape or form. typically one has to get dumped out... so you have dexterity based rogues and that's pretty much it. It's jsut an alternative function for rogue all in all.

Rogue a weak class? No. They can pull off their sneak attack -every- attack if they are smart. Rogues are not meant to be tanks, that has been the case since they were called "thieves" they are support classes. They are the tricks, the picks, the sneaks, the disarmers, the cheats. They are not tanks. Rogues, like fighters, have to multiclass. And basicing an entire argument off them falling to Phantasmal Killer is hardly a good point given they entirely ignore any spell with a reflex save. Let's not forget that only three levels in Rogue is pretty much sufficient to run down most trapped corridors and laugh at the entire collective trap collection. If you're worried about your saves vs. spells put some points into spellcraft (I AM! I'm even paying the cross class for it too. It's worth every point). Some of the most powerful characters on the server are rogues or splash rogues. Who? Amaril, Cervantes, Jinx (If buffed), SHINZO! Woo, for Shinzo!

All Rogues need to be devastating is someone else attacking the same target or improved knockdown. They don't need more abilities. If anyone does? It's Fighters.

Edit: Crippling Strike. Nuff said.

Rogues are definately tanks, with the uncapped dex bonus to ac and parry, and the int for expertise feats. There's nothing to stop someone from just changing their target to the rogue and nullifying any sneak attack dps he's going to get, so you may aswell be tanky when they focus you. Rogues get tumble, two weapon defence, You even said that they get all this tanking stuf earlier as one of the reasons they were supposedly "OP". Contradictin yourself bro

There is a difference between tanking and alt-tanking. An Alt-Tank (Jinx) CAN tank, but not as good as a real tank who has the HP to back it (Senies).
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Zhernebog on January 15, 2013, 02:52:55 AM
There is a difference between tanking and alt-tanking. An Alt-Tank (Jinx) CAN tank, but not as good as a real tank who has the HP to back it (Senies).
First off this is called off-tank. It's because it's on the off chance the tank needs help, you need to step up.
Second rogues are ridiculously powerful on this server. They can easily exist on another plane of existence if they just put points into hide/move silent around people who didn't put enough points into spot/listen(Aka:Warriors), without rping. On this plane they can level for free by following people around without rping once, easily steal items off people(Again, with no downside or rp) and basically might as well not exist outside of having benefits.
With the amount of ways rogues can gain access to sneak attacks, and rehiding, giving them more advantage would be laughably irresponsible.

Rogues make craptastic tanks against equivalent level targets. They make holes in people and exist in alternate dimensions.
A high ac isn't reliable if any enemy has access to magic missile or an extended critical range.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: What does the scanner see on January 15, 2013, 05:13:36 AM
There is a difference between tanking and alt-tanking. An Alt-Tank (Jinx) CAN tank, but not as good as a real tank who has the HP to back it (Senies).
First off this is called off-tank. It's because it's on the off chance the tank needs help, you need to step up.
Second rogues are ridiculously powerful on this server. They can easily exist on another plane of existence if they just put points into hide/move silent around people who didn't put enough points into spot/listen(Aka:Warriors), without rping. On this plane they can level for free by following people around without rping once, easily steal items off people(Again, with no downside or rp) and basically might as well not exist outside of having benefits.
With the amount of ways rogues can gain access to sneak attacks, and rehiding, giving them more advantage would be laughably irresponsible.

Rogues make craptastic tanks against equivalent level targets. They make holes in people and exist in alternate dimensions.
A high ac isn't reliable if any enemy has access to magic missile or an extended critical range.

Exactly. A pure class rogue doesn't have the HP to keep up with a real tank. They take one straight Missile Storm or an empowered Flame Arrow (One of the best spell in the game) and they will be hurting. Buff a pure rogue and a pure barbarian and see who does the job better. Rogues are fine as they are, just -play- them like they are supposed to be played.

And I prefer the term "alt-tanks", both are right. Let's not argue semantics.

Giving them MORE abilities would just tip the balance on this server more than it already is. Give the damn fighters something. Like adding the Armor Spec and Greater Weapon Focus/Spec feats. That would fix everything...except Rangers. Rangers are a damn lost cause in 3.0.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Ehver on January 15, 2013, 06:49:38 AM
This would definitely require something to prevent you from spamming it.  This also raises the tricky question of what counters the bluff check, as we don't have PnP's Sense Motive.

Why is this?

I found it really odd that this is not included in the list of skills... what exactly are we supposed to roll to counter influence (when it counts towards bluffing)?

Kind of off topic though, sorry. : O
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 15, 2013, 09:35:27 AM
(http://i.cdn.turner.com/asfix/repository/8a25c39212c8bcf30112c99af0910001/thumbnail_1052.jpg)

Just in general
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Fen'lo Taaran on January 15, 2013, 09:48:03 AM
A rogue built for PvP cleans house. Time-stop + Shapechange. GG sneak attacks, and an STR based Dragon-Rogue owning your flat-footed ass. Include a haste, and a bulls str. Also note that even without those things, they are -the- strongest. You can get rediculous AC, and still -really- good AB if you know how to buff/use consumables. Damage is no concern either, you can pop most PvP targets in under a round, PvM just requires some tactics and they are the strongest. People also forget about corner-sneaking, darkvision/darkness ganking, etc, etc. Saw a mage casting ice storm on a Vallaki garda not too long ago, collected the bounty by dropping them in one hit with an SA. Not too hard to do, if I say so myself. Also note rogues can get upwards of 68-70 Hide/MS here. Only mage/druids/clerics/rogues with listen/spot gear will detect them.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: What does the scanner see on January 15, 2013, 03:15:40 PM
A rogue built for PvP cleans house. Time-stop + Shapechange. GG sneak attacks, and an STR based Dragon-Rogue owning your flat-footed ass. Include a haste, and a bulls str. Also note that even without those things, they are -the- strongest. You can get rediculous AC, and still -really- good AB if you know how to buff/use consumables. Damage is no concern either, you can pop most PvP targets in under a round, PvM just requires some tactics and they are the strongest. People also forget about corner-sneaking, darkvision/darkness ganking, etc, etc. Saw a mage casting ice storm on a Vallaki garda not too long ago, collected the bounty by dropping them in one hit with an SA. Not too hard to do, if I say so myself. Also note rogues can get upwards of 68-70 Hide/MS here. Only mage/druids/clerics/rogues with listen/spot gear will detect them.

So now we're talking about cheap tactics now? And yes, rogues can one-round a mage. So can Bards.

Title: Re: Feint
Post by: aprogressivist on January 15, 2013, 03:37:45 PM
Surely by definition cheap tactics are a smart Rogue's stock-in-trade...
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Dumas on January 15, 2013, 05:35:51 PM
Indeed! Rogues are supposed to use cheap tactics and such! It's generally who they are. But yeah, in an attempt to nudge this back toward the topic, I like the idea of a feint feat. Perhaps it could replace dirty fighting? Which as discussed, no one seems to really use. This may be just me, but I hardly am able to use knockdown successfully with my rogue. Sure, I don't have improved, but still; it's rather rare to pull off. Doesn't knockdown give bonuses for larger races, and using larger weapons? If that's the case, knockdown isn't really good for an all inclusive special combat move feat for rogues. We're often smaller races, and often use light weapons. We don't get those large bonuses. So keeping that in mind, I could envision a Feint feat having bonuses to light weapons.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 15, 2013, 06:04:57 PM
Indeed! Rogues are supposed to use cheap tactics and such! It's generally who they are. But yeah, in an attempt to nudge this back toward the topic, I like the idea of a feint feat. Perhaps it could replace dirty fighting? Which as discussed, no one seems to really use. This may be just me, but I hardly am able to use knockdown successfully with my rogue. Sure, I don't have improved, but still; it's rather rare to pull off. Doesn't knockdown give bonuses for larger races, and using larger weapons? If that's the case, knockdown isn't really good for an all inclusive special combat move feat for rogues. We're often smaller races, and often use light weapons. We don't get those large bonuses. So keeping that in mind, I could envision a Feint feat having bonuses to light weapons.

Thank you! thank you!

This man has it totally right...
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Amon-Si on January 15, 2013, 07:12:38 PM
Indeed! Rogues are supposed to use cheap tactics and such! It's generally who they are. But yeah, in an attempt to nudge this back toward the topic, I like the idea of a feint feat. Perhaps it could replace dirty fighting? Which as discussed, no one seems to really use. This may be just me, but I hardly am able to use knockdown successfully with my rogue. Sure, I don't have improved, but still; it's rather rare to pull off. Doesn't knockdown give bonuses for larger races, and using larger weapons? If that's the case, knockdown isn't really good for an all inclusive special combat move feat for rogues. We're often smaller races, and often use light weapons. We don't get those large bonuses. So keeping that in mind, I could envision a Feint feat having bonuses to light weapons.

Large races get a bonus to knockdown, the size of the weapon doesn't matter.
However, Disarm bonuses are dependent on weapon size.
Despite my argument against rogues being weak, I do approve of more fears! ;D
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 15, 2013, 07:17:36 PM
A rogue built for PvP cleans house. Time-stop + Shapechange. GG sneak attacks, and an STR based Dragon-Rogue owning your flat-footed ass. Include a haste, and a bulls str. Also note that even without those things, they are -the- strongest. You can get rediculous AC, and still -really- good AB if you know how to buff/use consumables. Damage is no concern either, you can pop most PvP targets in under a round, PvM just requires some tactics and they are the strongest. People also forget about corner-sneaking, darkvision/darkness ganking, etc, etc. Saw a mage casting ice storm on a Vallaki garda not too long ago, collected the bounty by dropping them in one hit with an SA. Not too hard to do, if I say so myself. Also note rogues can get upwards of 68-70 Hide/MS here. Only mage/druids/clerics/rogues with listen/spot gear will detect them.

So now we're talking about cheap tactics now? And yes, rogues can one-round a mage. So can Bards.



It's funny cause you took him seriously.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: LackofCertainty on January 15, 2013, 08:07:15 PM
Anyone who says that rogues are weak straight up doesn't understand how rogues work in nwn, I'm sorry.

If you want to perform a feint in PotM, then circle around the tank you have with you so that the enemies retarget onto them.  Then step back in and do some more sneak attacks.  Is it perfect? No.  Does it work Solo? No.*  However, it requires no Dev work, and gives almost the same result in most situations. (Rogue misses a round of attacks, and starts doing sneak attacks again)

*The server is not balanced for solo play, so I doubt the devs would implement something that is basically only helps with solo play.  Also, rogues have plenty of ways to get sneak attacks even when solo.


P.S.
Nitpick:
Max level rogues get 10d6 sneak damage, not 9d6.  Average damage for a d6 is 3.5, not 3.  35 bonus damage per attack is a lot. :'(
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Silverfox on January 15, 2013, 08:12:40 PM
Works against the AI, doomed against PCs.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: LackofCertainty on January 15, 2013, 09:55:42 PM
Works against the AI, doomed against PCs.

Rogues are PVP monsters.  Against PC's, you can use stealth/bottle black/UMD/traps/what have you to get the jump on someone.  If you really have no way to get your sneak attack against a PC, then you probably deserve to be beaten.  :lol:
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: What does the scanner see on January 15, 2013, 11:24:58 PM
Indeed! Rogues are supposed to use cheap tactics and such! It's generally who they are. But yeah, in an attempt to nudge this back toward the topic, I like the idea of a feint feat. Perhaps it could replace dirty fighting? Which as discussed, no one seems to really use. This may be just me, but I hardly am able to use knockdown successfully with my rogue. Sure, I don't have improved, but still; it's rather rare to pull off. Doesn't knockdown give bonuses for larger races, and using larger weapons? If that's the case, knockdown isn't really good for an all inclusive special combat move feat for rogues. We're often smaller races, and often use light weapons. We don't get those large bonuses. So keeping that in mind, I could envision a Feint feat having bonuses to light weapons.

Knockdown only gives a bonus if you are large sized, which none of the player races in NWN are. You get no bonus for using a larger weapon. It's just a strength check. You then get the +4 to that by taking Improved.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Zhernebog on January 16, 2013, 12:46:44 AM
scrolls of timestop=bad game balance
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: The Prophet of Lies on January 16, 2013, 01:03:54 AM
The wizard that is assassinated by the rogue will cry "OVERPOWERED!"

The rogue that is time stomped by the wizard will ask, "The hell was that?"
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Zhernebog on January 16, 2013, 01:34:10 AM
The fighter that gets dicked by both:
I'm quitting this server.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: What does the scanner see on January 16, 2013, 01:57:17 AM
The Wizard who gets Imp Knockdown spammed: *Tantrum*.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: RigorMortis on January 16, 2013, 02:47:20 AM
Let's not turn this into a play on "WHICH CLASS IZ BETTUR!?" "NERF DAT GUY!" It seems he wants this new combat variable to be added to spice things up, not give a supreme advantage to one class. Feinting sounds like a fun concept that could really create a new dynamic in combat besides just clicking on your target and hoping to role high, It's not for the want of sheer power, but for diversity as well.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Zhernebog on January 16, 2013, 03:19:26 AM
Unfortunately we have a community who cannot be trusted with barrels of monkeys, much less new maneuvers that are easily abusable.
It'd be different if the move was a lateral direction and offered a debilitating downside to offset the amazing god powers granted by it then we could talk, unfortunately we live on neckbeard island where we can't be trusted to do anything outside the box, and for good reason. Especially with rogues.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: What does the scanner see on January 16, 2013, 04:26:08 AM
Okay, then let's get this topic back on track. Why is a feint option a bad idea?

1) New ability that has to be scripted. The server has enough unique scripts as is.

2) Another ability given to one or two specific classes.

3) It would be opposed by a skill which the majority of classes do not have access too. Unless we bend things a little and make it opposed by Concentration.

4) It would be a one round ability in which the animation triggers, thus leaving the rogue flat footed for that one round and less attacks going out from your character. (Similar to taunt)

5) At first implementation this would be riddled with glitches and there are enough bugs that need to be fixed as is.

6) It would ultimately give rogues ONE extra sneak attack. You can get sneak attack enough ways already.

7) We have taunt which can nerf an opponents AC by a maximum of 6 points. That is pretty potent already and pretty 'rouge-ish'. What's more Han Solo than talking smack in a brawl?

8) This would probably require new feats and items and the server has enough of those already.

9) Very open to abuse and as Zhernebog pointed out already, the players can't be trusted with the catfish and monkey barrels, so why give them something else?

Now, why would it be a good idea?

1) Another option.

2) I've seen feint do some pretty devastating things in the hands of high charisma and strength based rogues in my Dungeons and Dragons games.

3) It would be something new and unique that has not been done on other servers.

4) It would make Improved Initiative even more useless than it already is. (Has anyone ever taken that feat in NWN history?)

Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 16, 2013, 02:08:01 PM
Okay, then let's get this topic back on track. Why is a feint option a bad idea?

1) New ability that has to be scripted. The server has enough unique scripts as is.

2) Another ability given to one or two specific classes.

3) It would be opposed by a skill which the majority of classes do not have access too. Unless we bend things a little and make it opposed by Concentration.

4) It would be a one round ability in which the animation triggers, thus leaving the rogue flat footed for that one round and less attacks going out from your character. (Similar to taunt)

5) At first implementation this would be riddled with glitches and there are enough bugs that need to be fixed as is.

6) It would ultimately give rogues ONE extra sneak attack. You can get sneak attack enough ways already.

7) We have taunt which can nerf an opponents AC by a maximum of 6 points. That is pretty potent already and pretty 'rouge-ish'. What's more Han Solo than talking smack in a brawl?

8) This would probably require new feats and items and the server has enough of those already.

9) Very open to abuse and as Zhernebog pointed out already, the players can't be trusted with the catfish and monkey barrels, so why give them something else?

Now, why would it be a good idea?

1) Another option.

2) I've seen feint do some pretty devastating things in the hands of high charisma and strength based rogues in my Dungeons and Dragons games.

3) It would be something new and unique that has not been done on other servers.

4) It would make Improved Initiative even more useless than it already is. (Has anyone ever taken that feat in NWN history?)

I'm going to try and not be rude... okay can't do it.

yep sinking as low as to use an image macro.

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/000/151/n725075089_288918_2774.jpg)

Okay your first two reasons listed is basically random  crap to be contrary, no offense but it's true. The server has added useless stuff I never see anyone use including Warding Gesture. So you reason of "It's another thing to add" is weak because that's just to say "I wouldn't want to be bothered with the work to add in a script". Which is funny cause i'm not even  sure you would even be the one adding the script to the module, so what difference does the labor make to you?

The ability is a skill, so it's open to all classes (herp). Not only can rogue make use of this along with bard (who can sort of make use of this) but you have black guard and CoTs who can certainly also make use of this.

Concentration wouldn't make sense. At all. Also not everyone has access to the necessary charisma based skills to perform a feint. Spot is easily grabbed by plenty of classes, not to mention most people multiclass or cross class skills anyway. It's no secret that the warrior Meta for Ravenloft is Martial Class(Barb, rngr, fighter) 10/5 (Fighter or Barbarian)/5 Rogue. Rogue has access to spot, and most people do he 5 class dip here just to grab Tumble, and some skill points. They'll have more than enough for spot. Not only that, it now gives people a reason to bother with spot. Nobody usually bothers with spot because scrolls of invisibility or Potions which rogues have access to. So instead people just raise listen in order to detect them.

as for your 4, is this a problem? If anything this would be support for those against it because it nerfs the rogue flatout, altough Improved Combat Expertise may help the rogue in this situation regardless (Rogues grab this cause their tanks btw)

your five is another contrary one, you say this as if nothing is glitched/bugged. The risk of it having a bug is silly, bugs tend to get fixed when they cause problems (See Kettlefish Thread). NWN itself is buggy as hell so this doesn't mean anything and it's just to be contrary.

6...what? No. this gives rogue a round of sneaks in exchange for all but one of it's attacks...learn to DND man

7 Something else similar exists...okay hardly relevant but it's there. Taunt does something completely different and is more of the warriors version, or rather a tanks version. I would never let my typical two hander sit still to talk smack to an enemy. Also... Starwars?

Smiley face guy with sunglasses is not a number. also the reason again is just to be contrary and another way of writing your first reason.

9 Not gonna look up what Zherne nor will I criticize a buddy of mine too hard, but I will say you missed the point of the issue with the kettle fish completely, and i'm not bringing it up to get us further off topic. Also speaking of which you've quite a bit of nerve to talk about getting back on topic in a thread I started after further pushing it off topic when I had stated I wanted to get back on topic.

Your section of why it would be a good idea... please, just please...don't argue for those who want it it's not helping.

your 1 doesn't expand enough information on the importance of options in DND like I have stressed. Please don't use my arguemets/explanations unless you plan to give them the full detail they deserve.

your 2 is... ...what? LOL!? No one has said this at all, also no one feint rogues in Table Top, feint's better as a later level option hence a reason why it's good here cause in neverwinter you can expect to actually get beyond level 5. Most table tops don't play nearly as far levels as DND Video Games do.

3 Could be true, although I doubt it... I'm pretty sure it's used in PRC or Players Resource Consortium but I am unsure on that.

4 LOL WHAT!?

what does initiative have anything t do with feint? Wait I know! Nothing! Bloody, nothing! not even a little bit, if anything this would give it more use because charisma based rogues will need this to complete with dex based rogue who will ultimately have better initiative than they ever will!


I mean wow dude... sorry for coming off as rude, but seriously. You ignore me when I want a thread back on track, then you come back wanting to put it back on track with mostly contrary nonsense or things that simply don't make sense. I mean shoot me for being rude but there you have it...

Like you actually took Fenlo's troll post about rogues casting 9th level spells seriously...like... I mean you did realize he was making fun of people who said rogue was OP right? I mean you realize that was a clever joke with a punch line provided, then you go and provide another punchline by actually believing it. At first I was annoyed by the fact that this thread got hijacked and turned into an "OMG DIS CLASS OP/NOT OP" thread but now i'm glad it did go up because this is comedic gold.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: What does the scanner see on January 16, 2013, 03:17:20 PM
Okay, then let's get this topic back on track. Why is a feint option a bad idea?

1) New ability that has to be scripted. The server has enough unique scripts as is.

2) Another ability given to one or two specific classes.

3) It would be opposed by a skill which the majority of classes do not have access too. Unless we bend things a little and make it opposed by Concentration.

4) It would be a one round ability in which the animation triggers, thus leaving the rogue flat footed for that one round and less attacks going out from your character. (Similar to taunt)

5) At first implementation this would be riddled with glitches and there are enough bugs that need to be fixed as is.

6) It would ultimately give rogues ONE extra sneak attack. You can get sneak attack enough ways already.

7) We have taunt which can nerf an opponents AC by a maximum of 6 points. That is pretty potent already and pretty 'rouge-ish'. What's more Han Solo than talking smack in a brawl?

8) This would probably require new feats and items and the server has enough of those already.

9) Very open to abuse and as Zhernebog pointed out already, the players can't be trusted with the catfish and monkey barrels, so why give them something else?

Now, why would it be a good idea?

1) Another option.

2) I've seen feint do some pretty devastating things in the hands of high charisma and strength based rogues in my Dungeons and Dragons games.

3) It would be something new and unique that has not been done on other servers.

4) It would make Improved Initiative even more useless than it already is. (Has anyone ever taken that feat in NWN history?)

I'm going to try and not be rude... okay can't do it.

yep sinking as low as to use an image macro.

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/000/151/n725075089_288918_2774.jpg)

Okay your first two reasons listed is basically random  crap to be contrary, no offense but it's true. The server has added useless stuff I never see anyone use including Warding Gesture. So you reason of "It's another thing to add" is weak because that's just to say "I wouldn't want to be bothered with the work to add in a script". Which is funny cause i'm not even  sure you would even be the one adding the script to the module, so what difference does the labor make to you?

The ability is a skill, so it's open to all classes (herp). Not only can rogue make use of this along with bard (who can sort of make use of this) but you have black guard and CoTs who can certainly also make use of this.

Concentration wouldn't make sense. At all. Also not everyone has access to the necessary charisma based skills to perform a feint. Spot is easily grabbed by plenty of classes, not to mention most people multiclass or cross class skills anyway. It's no secret that the warrior Meta for Ravenloft is Martial Class(Barb, rngr, fighter) 10/5 (Fighter or Barbarian)/5 Rogue. Rogue has access to spot, and most people do he 5 class dip here just to grab Tumble, and some skill points. They'll have more than enough for spot. Not only that, it now gives people a reason to bother with spot. Nobody usually bothers with spot because scrolls of invisibility or Potions which rogues have access to. So instead people just raise listen in order to detect them.

as for your 4, is this a problem? If anything this would be support for those against it because it nerfs the rogue flatout, altough Improved Combat Expertise may help the rogue in this situation regardless (Rogues grab this cause their tanks btw)

your five is another contrary one, you say this as if nothing is glitched/bugged. The risk of it having a bug is silly, bugs tend to get fixed when they cause problems (See Kettlefish Thread). NWN itself is buggy as hell so this doesn't mean anything and it's just to be contrary.

6...what? No. this gives rogue a round of sneaks in exchange for all but one of it's attacks...learn to DND man

7 Something else similar exists...okay hardly relevant but it's there. Taunt does something completely different and is more of the warriors version, or rather a tanks version. I would never let my typical two hander sit still to talk smack to an enemy. Also... Starwars?

Smiley face guy with sunglasses is not a number. also the reason again is just to be contrary and another way of writing your first reason.

9 Not gonna look up what Zherne nor will I criticize a buddy of mine too hard, but I will say you missed the point of the issue with the kettle fish completely, and i'm not bringing it up to get us further off topic. Also speaking of which you've quite a bit of nerve to talk about getting back on topic in a thread I started after further pushing it off topic when I had stated I wanted to get back on topic.

Your section of why it would be a good idea... please, just please...don't argue for those who want it it's not helping.

your 1 doesn't expand enough information on the importance of options in DND like I have stressed. Please don't use my arguemets/explanations unless you plan to give them the full detail they deserve.

your 2 is... ...what? LOL!? No one has said this at all, also no one feint rogues in Table Top, feint's better as a later level option hence a reason why it's good here cause in neverwinter you can expect to actually get beyond level 5. Most table tops don't play nearly as far levels as DND Video Games do.

3 Could be true, although I doubt it... I'm pretty sure it's used in PRC or Players Resource Consortium but I am unsure on that.

4 LOL WHAT!?

what does initiative have anything t do with feint? Wait I know! Nothing! Bloody, nothing! not even a little bit, if anything this would give it more use because charisma based rogues will need this to complete with dex based rogue who will ultimately have better initiative than they ever will!


I mean wow dude... sorry for coming off as rude, but seriously. You ignore me when I want a thread back on track, then you come back wanting to put it back on track with mostly contrary nonsense or things that simply don't make sense. I mean shoot me for being rude but there you have it...

Like you actually took Fenlo's troll post about rogues casting 9th level spells seriously...like... I mean you did realize he was making fun of people who said rogue was OP right? I mean you realize that was a clever joke with a punch line provided, then you go and provide another punchline by actually believing it. At first I was annoyed by the fact that this thread got hijacked and turned into an "OMG DIS CLASS OP/NOT OP" thread but now i'm glad it did go up because this is comedic gold.

Uh...I don't even know how to respond to what you have said, that was sheer idiocy and obvious you are just looking to turn this into a flame war.

And for the record, Concentration would make TONS of sense to be the opposite of feint seeing as it's HOW WELL YOU STAY FOCUSED AND AVOID DISTRACTION.

How does Improved Initiative come into play? Because if you attack first...you get sneak attack. Please, if you're going to troll someone. Do it right. And by do it right, I mean leave it to Dutchy.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 16, 2013, 04:06:57 PM
Uh...I don't even know how to respond to what you have said

Sorry would work I mean, you did ignore me when trying to bring order to my own thread then tried to hijack it. I mean... that would suffice rather nicley but that's just me, I mean what do I know? [smug shrug] as for flame war? naw I just brought up the point that you have no idea what the hell are you talking about lol, you getting mad isn't a flame war.

HOW WELL YOU STAY FOCUSED AND AVOID DISTRACTION.

This is not how feint works. please read the SRD again. A feint is not a distraction it is a bluff to confuse someone into thinking you are weak in a place where you are actually not, or that you are going to strike from one place when you are actually going to strike from another. Also don't capslock me, that's just rude i'm trying to have a discussion not a shouting match.

How does Improved Initiative come into play? Because if you attack first...you get sneak attack.


Improved Initiative makes no damn difference because Sneak Attacks are made as part of a "Surprise Round" if you actually played DND you would know what "Surprise Round" is. Initiative is rolled AFTER a surprise round. I thought you played DND? The only time sneak attacks aren't made as part of a suprise is in moments like Feint, flanking, and flatfooted opponents.

Please, if you're going to troll someone. Do it right. And by do it right, I mean leave it to Dutchy.

Oh I'm not trolling, I could've sworn you were because you actually took Fenlo's post seriously. If I was trolling you i'd actually be doing it right cause your getting quite upset...
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: The Prophet of Lies on January 16, 2013, 04:10:46 PM
The Wizard who gets Imp Knockdown spammed: *Tantrum*.

The fighter eating Acid Sheathe? Timeless.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Ipes on January 16, 2013, 04:27:02 PM
Okay, then let's get this topic back on track. Why is a feint option a bad idea?

1) New ability that has to be scripted. The server has enough unique scripts as is.

2) Another ability given to one or two specific classes.

3) It would be opposed by a skill which the majority of classes do not have access too. Unless we bend things a little and make it opposed by Concentration.

4) It would be a one round ability in which the animation triggers, thus leaving the rogue flat footed for that one round and less attacks going out from your character. (Similar to taunt)

5) At first implementation this would be riddled with glitches and there are enough bugs that need to be fixed as is.

6) It would ultimately give rogues ONE extra sneak attack. You can get sneak attack enough ways already.

7) We have taunt which can nerf an opponents AC by a maximum of 6 points. That is pretty potent already and pretty 'rouge-ish'. What's more Han Solo than talking smack in a brawl?

8) This would probably require new feats and items and the server has enough of those already.

9) Very open to abuse and as Zhernebog pointed out already, the players can't be trusted with the catfish and monkey barrels, so why give them something else?

Now, why would it be a good idea?

1) Another option.

2) I've seen feint do some pretty devastating things in the hands of high charisma and strength based rogues in my Dungeons and Dragons games.

3) It would be something new and unique that has not been done on other servers.

4) It would make Improved Initiative even more useless than it already is. (Has anyone ever taken that feat in NWN history?)


I'm going to respond to your idiotic post.
1) The server doesn't have "too many scripts", the same could be said for all nw content that is going to be added in.
2) The way Dungeons and Dragons is made is so that each class is different and unique, they're supposed to have a variety of abilities to better differentiate them from others of the same class, not all Rogues should be the same, adding in the feint ability will alllow the rogues to max a completely different stat which will change the shape of their build entirely.
3) Concentration wouldn't make any sense.
4) What does the animation or how many attacks per round it give have to do with anything?
5) All new content is bound to be buggy in one way or another, and having as many players on as we do now is a good way to playtest for these bugs.
6) There really isn't enough ways to get sneak attacks at all, the more diversity you have in a class the better, a Rogue can't land a knockdown for his low AB, the only way you'd be able to proc sneak attacks after your first one would be if you had some sort of paralysis trap, and not every rogue has to be a trapsmith.
7) Taunt is completely different from Feint, I suggest you read up on stuff before you write about it.
8 ) There's never enough feats, as stated above the more content in a game the better, thats the reason why there is so many D&D books.
9) Any player can do anything to break the IC rules, I could make a character and call him "Dicks" And go around spamming profanity and that would break the atmosphere harder.

As for your other reasons on why we should have it, you've missed the point entirely.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: DangerousToGoAlone on January 16, 2013, 04:34:56 PM

How does Improved Initiative come into play? Because if you attack first...you get sneak attack.


Improved Initiative makes no damn difference because Sneak Attacks are made as part of a "Surprise Round" if you actually played DND you would know what "Surprise Round" is. Initiative is rolled AFTER a surprise round. I thought you played DND? The only time sneak attacks aren't made as part of a suprise is in moments like Feint, flanking, and flatfooted opponents.



After the suprise round, if the rogue has higher initiative than the opponent, he still gets sneak attacks. You are considered flatfooted untill your first initiative turn. So improved initiative makes -alot- of difference, as it means the rogue has a higher chance to get 2 rounds of attacks, rather than 1, in the suprise round. Double the sneak attacks.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Ovidiu_Lacusta on January 16, 2013, 04:39:42 PM
That might come down to a matter of opinion, I know some rogues who swear by Improved Initiative, but I have never taken the feat myself and have been quite effective without it.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Ovidiu_Lacusta on January 16, 2013, 04:42:17 PM
In Pen and Paper terms, I should be able to fit in more sneak attacks in the first round of combat, since that's the first "Full Round" and the "Surprise round" only allows time for a standard action.  Something is rotten in Denmark because the "surprise round" isn't "shortened" in NWN, I don't know, I'm able to get all my killing done before Initiative rolls.  If you then win initiative, it's home free.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Snowflame on January 16, 2013, 05:12:27 PM
That might come down to a matter of opinion, I know some rogues who swear by Improved Initiative, but I have never taken the feat myself and have been quite effective without it.

Of course you have, because it doesn't make any real difference. It never does. Also when you are dex based you don't really need improved initiative because you are already going to have a very good initiative roll. that's like cleric taking iron will it's a waste, you're already going to be phenomenal there so you don't need it. So even if it were true, it wouldn't help'em.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: Crimson Shuriken on January 16, 2013, 09:24:20 PM
Its not totally without use, its just a hedge of bet feat choice.  Its a feat choice sort of like Great Cleave, mostly useless, but mostly useless and totally useless are not the same thing.  Winning the initiative has the potential to give a rogue two volleys worth (four attack rolls) of sneak attack damage out of stealth so its somewhat useful just not as much as other feats and no class is as hard pressed for feats as a rogue on PotM.
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: LackofCertainty on January 16, 2013, 09:27:42 PM
Dev work always is a factor in whether an idea is worth implementing or not, because the devs have to do work to implement the systems.  Unless an idea is personally championed by a dev, you have to convince them why they should take time away from what they are doing/want to do to instead implement your system.  If you're not going to count the added work they have to do to implement a feint system, you come off as a bit of a jerk, imo.

Posting a textbook sized response complete with images to taunt the person who you're replying to also makes you look like a jerk. (or at least a child who is in need of a time-out)  If you want to counter the person's post, point by point, that's fine, but there's no reason to be nasty about it.


6) There really isn't enough ways to get sneak attacks at all, the more diversity you have in a class the better, a Rogue can't land a knockdown for his low AB, the only way you'd be able to proc sneak attacks after your first one would be if you had some sort of paralysis trap, and not every rogue has to be a trapsmith.

There are lots of ways to get sneak attacks, especially when you're in a party.  As I mentioned in my previous post, the simplest one being to step around your tank and reengage when the mob switches to attack them. 

The server isn't balanced for solo play, but even if you're talking as a solo'ing rogue, there are -lots- of ways to get sneak attacks.  (corner sneaking, bottled black, and umd'ing various spells to name a few)  Just because rogue's don't have a giant "Give me sneak attack" button built into the character doesn't mean it's impossible to get them. :)
Title: Re: Feint
Post by: EO on January 16, 2013, 09:54:09 PM
I'm locking this topic as it's been pretty ugly for a while now. The idea has some merit, but as has been mentioned, developing time is fairly limited and we can't do everything. If it spikes/spiked a member of the development team's interest, then it may get added depending on the feasibility. Adding feats and skills is no easy task and requires both scripting and hak updates.