Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Green Monster on December 27, 2012, 02:47:09 AM

Title: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Green Monster on December 27, 2012, 02:47:09 AM
In the OC, the power of the cleric is made less impressive by the presence of permanent magical items that give the same or better bonuses as the cleric's spells. Here, where such items don't exist, the cleric's buffs, and being able to do so in armor, pretty much render the true warrior classes obsolete and is why we have so many clerics who don't seem to know any of their God's dogma. Time for the nerf-bat. Here's my suggestions:


Magic Vestment:
In the OC, this spell is just something to use until you find your +5 armour and shield. On a low-magic server, it's way too powerful. It should max out here at +3, not +5


Divine Power:
This spell should not stack with Bull's Strength. With it, you're already getting strength from your God, don't be greedy! Right now, if you cast Divine Power first and then cast empowered Bull's Strength after, you can have 24 Strength. That's too much, especially for a self-only spell.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Zhernebog on December 27, 2012, 06:38:54 AM
If you're power buffing yourself as a cleric when you have a true warrior class nearby, you are not very good at the mechanical aspect of the game.
Clerics are only an off-tank at best, and unfortunately I've noticed far too commonly a bunch of people only willing to buff themselves when they have a full BAB standing around. When you buff yourself as a cleric you become just as good as a fighter, maybe even a little bit better. When you buff a warrior class, they turn into a frothing, unstoppable juggernaut berserker.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Fen'lo Taaran on December 27, 2012, 06:48:24 AM
Also depends on how the fighter/cleric are built. Although he hit the nail on the head there. If the cleric is just self-buffing instead of sharing the love, they need their head checked.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: tzaeru on December 27, 2012, 07:02:24 AM
If you're power buffing yourself as a cleric when you have a true warrior class nearby, you are not very good at the mechanical aspect of the game.
Clerics are only an off-tank at best, and unfortunately I've noticed far too commonly a bunch of people only willing to buff themselves when they have a full BAB standing around. When you buff yourself as a cleric you become just as good as a fighter, maybe even a little bit better. When you buff a warrior class, they turn into a frothing, unstoppable juggernaut berserker.

Eh, this is only partially correct. Actually a solo-buffing cleric can be more powerful than a fighter buffed by that cleric.

Divine Power + Divine Favor + Bull's Strength is typically same or often more AB and damage than Fighter of same level. Clerics also have more spells per day than wizard and druids, allowing them to use round-based buffs all the way to next rest at mid to high levels. When you mix in certain domains (like War or Strength) and the possible Divine Shield and Divine Might, you can easily build a cleric that is stronger buffing himself than an averagely strong fighter in the party.

By now, I think the spell balance is almost fine (I've a few changes left that I'd like!) and I'd rather see buffs to the weak classes than nerfs to the powerful ones. Like change Fighter and Barbarian BAB progression to something like 1 + 1/8 per level, which means they'd have 2 AB more than now at level 16. (Why 1 + 1/8? Because then you can't multiclass if you want the full +2 bonus from what it is now. :P)
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Fen'lo Taaran on December 27, 2012, 07:04:30 AM
Fighter/WM/Rogue with buffs craps all over a cleric. There's also the thing of, instead of wasting those spell-slots on buffs, you can be keeping allies alive with healing spells, or even using spells that have no save (hello searing light spam).
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: tzaeru on December 27, 2012, 07:10:33 AM
Fighter/WM/Rogue, though, wouldn't do all so well vs. critical/sneak immune monsters. Would still get some benefit out of the NWN's lovable skill-dumping, though.

It's a bit sad that the only sensible meleer builds involve cross-classing to rogue and skill-dumping, unless you can count on having a smart buffer around most of the time - which many, I for one, can't.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Nemien Callishan on December 27, 2012, 07:11:48 AM
Divine Power + Divine Favor + Bull's Strength is typically same or often more AB and damage than Fighter of same level. Clerics also have more spells per day than wizard and druids, allowing them to use round-based buffs all the way to next rest at mid to high levels. When you mix in certain domains (like War or Strength) and the possible Divine Shield and Divine Might, you can easily build a cleric that is stronger buffing himself than an averagely strong fighter in the party.

It's true. This server hates fighters.

I'd say it hates non casters but there's far too many skill boosts for rogues whereas all the fighters get is a bunch of cheating monsters explotiing a design flaw to gain a 90% miss chance when it's supposed to max out at 50% regardless of the source. This bug has been reported to the dev team (at elast twice) and they told me to shut up and gloated about how proud theywere to impliment such anti fighter nonsense. Not good  :roll:.

Insane difficulty is not the only way to encourage cooperation. Instead all it does is encourage the powergamers to break the system wich, when action is taken against them, only punishes the rest of the players for bothering to exist.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Fen'lo Taaran on December 27, 2012, 07:14:58 AM
LOL, right because rogues have it easy. If you pure-build a rogue, apart from the basic roguish things (which every other class outperforms you at), you are borerline useless apart from PvP, or high, high level dungeoning. Also note the server doesn't love rogues. Roguesare lucky to get a decent Hide/MS, even with ranks, SF's, Stealthy +6 dex and a whole stealth kit, you're going to get crapped on by someone that decides to buy a True Seeing potion and only has spot gear equipped, with no ranks in it. Don't mean to dig, but perhaps if you actually spent more time dungeoning and interacting with people, instead of sitting off in Port-A-Lucine bitching about how no one goes there, you might actually know these things.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: tzaeru on December 27, 2012, 07:24:06 AM
I'd say it hates non casters but there's far too many skill boosts for rogues whereas all the fighters get is a bunch of cheating monsters explotiing a design flaw to gain a 90% miss chance when it's supposed to max out at 50% regardless of the source.

I only know 3 monsters with 90% concealment and all the other of their stats are so weak that they don't pose much of a danger. Additionally, with Blind Fight (which every fighter should really have) it's 81% miss chance. High, but doable.. And these monsters hurt everyone just as much anyway. Actually with more attacks per round, fighters may even have them easier than cleric or rogue.

And it's possible you guys could be a bit more polite of things.. I'm sure none of the devs and mostly none of the players is there just to make your chosen class a pain to play. :roll:
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Zhernebog on December 27, 2012, 07:27:31 AM
LOL, right because rogues have it easy. If you pure-build a rogue, apart from the basic roguish things (which every other class outperforms you at), you are borerline useless apart from PvP, or high, high level dungeoning. Also note the server doesn't love rogues. Roguesare lucky to get a decent Hide/MS, even with ranks, SF's, Stealthy +6 dex and a whole stealth kit, you're going to get crapped on by someone that decides to buy a True Seeing potion and only has spot gear equipped, with no ranks in it. Don't mean to dig, but perhaps if you actually spent more time dungeoning and interacting with people, instead of sitting off in Port-A-Lucine bitching about how no one goes there, you might actually know these things.
The server loves the hell out of skill-dumping a few levels of rogue. Many even advocate dipping a level or two into it to stay mechanically relevant, which is a dead give-away of a problem.
But if you start with an equivalently well-built fighter, the cleric can become just as good, but never as powerful in sheer ability.
Aside from the to-hit bonus we seem to neglect the increased hit die and lack of losing focus if they're dispelled, which is a huge boon for things like salamanders. Where the greedy, worthless cleric suddenly can't hit the salamanders at all after a larger one dispels them, the warrior can keep on trucking while the party rebuffs them. Any monster with a lucky dispel on a cleric means party wipe if you can't ditch out quickly enough.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Fen'lo Taaran on December 27, 2012, 07:29:32 AM
LOL, right because rogues have it easy. If you pure-build a rogue, apart from the basic roguish things (which every other class outperforms you at), you are borerline useless apart from PvP, or high, high level dungeoning. Also note the server doesn't love rogues. Roguesare lucky to get a decent Hide/MS, even with ranks, SF's, Stealthy +6 dex and a whole stealth kit, you're going to get crapped on by someone that decides to buy a True Seeing potion and only has spot gear equipped, with no ranks in it. Don't mean to dig, but perhaps if you actually spent more time dungeoning and interacting with people, instead of sitting off in Port-A-Lucine bitching about how no one goes there, you might actually know these things.
The server loves the hell out of skill-dumping a few levels of rogue. Many even advocate dipping a level or two into it to stay mechanically relevant, which is a dead give-away of a problem.
But if you start with an equivalently well-built fighter, the cleric can become just as good, but never as powerful in sheer ability.
Aside from the to-hit bonus we seem to neglect the increased hit die and lack of losing focus if they're dispelled, which is a huge boon for things like salamanders. Where the greedy, worthless cleric suddenly can't hit the salamanders at all after a larger one dispels them. Any monster with a lucky dispel means party wipe if you can't ditch out quickly enough.

I agree, the fact skill-dumping can so predominantly happen is a bit of a sad fact, but the monsters/encounters are built around people knowing some of the best builds, I mean honestly, you'd be mad to forgo 3-4 AC, or even 1 AC if you're a low level and just starting off.

Perhaps a script on-equip for armour that takes the skill total of tumble in to account, and then gives a negative dodge AC bonus? Should be able to do that with scripting, no? Grab the characters rank, grab the current skill total. Divide the difference by 5, remove 1 dodge AC per "1" difference after the division.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Zhernebog on December 27, 2012, 07:36:39 AM
I only know 3 monsters with 90% concealment and all the other of their stats are so weak that they don't pose much of a danger. Additionally, with Blind Fight (which every fighter should really have) it's 81% miss chance. High, but doable..
81% miss means less than one of every five successful attacks matter. This is stupid.
In any other game this would be pointed out as a bug and flaw, it renders physical builds hideously underwhelming, so any of those will outright avoid these monsters. But there are direct counters for every class. Druids can't go near something with high SR and lightning immunity at lower levels.
It's about teamwork. Teamwork is op.

And it's possible you guys could be a bit more polite of things.. I'm sure none of the devs and mostly none of the players is there just to make your chosen class a pain to play. :roll:
If any offense can be drawn from my posts, let it be known that any irritation is sent toward selfish clerics for not being team players. I mean seriously, you're giving this up:
Spoiler: show

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZWYCcIorDk[/youtube]


Also I think it's really silly that dex penalties don't effect tumble. CLANK CLANK DO A BARREL ROLL FULLPLATE.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Troukk on December 27, 2012, 07:50:57 AM
Clerics are easier to solo than fighters. But as it has been said a trillion times, classes are not balanced for soloing. As for grouping, buffing cleric + fighter combo is safer and more versatile than 2 clerics or 2 fighters.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Mayvind on December 27, 2012, 08:46:18 AM
I  :lolsign: at this thread Class discussion in every second month, if vestment is render +3 there no point using the spell since enchantment armor  is +3, and also magic vestment +5 only when you get to be level 20 pure cleric it already been nerf so true +5 is 20 level pure cleric only i bet you don't have level 20 Cleric ( I do HAHAHA ), divine power and bull str afterward who cares ? the divine power fade faster and it notch str back to normal bull str buff.

Stop worry about how other class doing or how other play theirs class. And whom said fighter not getting love ? the Server is no longer low magic setting the noob weeks show abudant of  magic items for fighter, enchantment, varnishes, potions you name it. I can solo Anubis as fighter/rogue class just fine.

Also this been said thousand of times LOW MAGIC setting is Not WEAK MAGIC. 

P.S STR 24 ? is crisis ? bah a good build Cleric have STR 32 atleast when buffed.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Fen'lo Taaran on December 27, 2012, 08:49:54 AM
Considering how common flame candles are, you farm beatles for an hour, cna you could clear skeletons down 3 levels, just from flame candles with proper tactics. Brooches of Shielding used to be relatively rare, now shield candles drop more than pants on a prom night.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Honoun on December 27, 2012, 09:07:48 AM
Most of these Nerf threads are due to a PvP encounter that went badly for one starting the thread cause they can't play thier antognist that well. I have to wonder if this also is the case here... Please say it's not.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Mrjunkie on December 27, 2012, 09:43:40 AM
 :bonk: Brick the nerfers!

Season of good will folks, not of moaning about discussions held more times than if i were to times my fingers by my toe's!
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: The Prophet of Lies on December 27, 2012, 10:36:38 AM
Clerics excel at soloing. Good for them. If they are explicitly focused on buffing themselves and not the party, they are doing it wrong.

Have you ever seen a fully buffed Cleric get hit by mordekainen's disjunction while he is stuck in? Now that is funny.

Is it a tragedy that rogues are used as a skill dump class? Not really. Was it a tragedy in Guild Wars that -no one- actually played a necromancer as their standard class? No

The server does not hate fighters. Between varnishes, every conceivable buff spell as a potion, ensorcelled arms and armour, and basically infinite feats - where is the hate?
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: dutchy on December 27, 2012, 12:12:20 PM
You forget enchanted weapons armor and shields

A player return and in his first week this topic is born. Gotta love these topics

A cleric is better of buffing others and heal duhh
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Fierna on December 27, 2012, 12:29:27 PM
All nerfs like this do is make the people who abuse it find a new way to cheat the system and hurts the ones who are actually playing the social cleric who uses their spells to assist their allies. I don't think those spells should be nerfed, because really the solo cleric out there isn't hurting me or my RP, nor is it breaking the system. Let it be, and focus on having fun IMO. :)
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Zhernebog on December 27, 2012, 12:44:41 PM
All nerfs like this do is make the people who abuse it find a new way to cheat the system and hurts the ones who are actually playing the social cleric who uses their spells to assist their allies. I don't think those spells should be nerfed, because really the solo cleric out there isn't hurting me or my RP, nor is it breaking the system. Let it be, and focus on having fun IMO. :)
First of all thanks for a solid, well-reasoned reply instead of a funny quip or cancerous gif image.
Id have to say of all the people cheating the system in potm, one of the tiniest minorities is clerics, while yes they have versatility and power and can become the equivalent of a warrior class, having the divine power buff not stack with bulls isnt a huge nerf and would.force TEAMWORK, which is, imho, the entire point of dungeoning. Its impossible to write a story by yourself, and preventing people from doing so would only lead to a more cooperative community.
Also it might stop you self-buffing clods from not giving me dem buffs.
If I have to shake a cleric down for buffs everytime the group rests, I lose all faith in them and usually will not help.them if they die or start losing.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Badelaire on December 27, 2012, 01:25:23 PM
It's amazing how many people won't even acknowledge the god of a cleric though. I get harped on at sometimes for not providing buffs for someone who can't even say "Thank you to your god". I'll quite happily buff a bunch of fighters up the ying yang (it's part of the cleric's dogma to seek out conflict and aid mercenaries and so on in their battles) if there was some suspension of disbelief at religion in roleplay. Soloing is boring and hard work as a cleric. I might be able to hit 35AB at mid level but that lasts about 5 mins compared to proper melee with extended wards and buffs on them. Nerfs aren't the answer, changes in attitude are and the willingness to seek out others on adventures is.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: dutchy on December 27, 2012, 01:36:15 PM
It's amazing how many people won't even acknowledge the god of a cleric though. I get harped on at sometimes for not providing buffs for someone who can't even say "Thank you to your god". I'll quite happily buff a bunch of fighters up the ying yang (it's part of the cleric's dogma to seek out conflict and aid mercenaries and so on in their battles) if there was some suspension of disbelief at religion in roleplay. Soloing is boring and hard work as a cleric. I might be able to hit 35AB at mid level but that lasts about 5 mins compared to proper melee with extended wards and buffs on them. Nerfs aren't the answer, changes in attitude are and the willingness to seek out others on adventures is.

Seasonal thinking huh :p

It's a mindset ppl if the sign says don't walk on the grass and nobody is around to correct you would.you walk on it to have the shorter route to your destinations or walk around it

Current attitude is me feet are on your grass .......  (Dave chapel pun )
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: airengale on December 27, 2012, 01:36:53 PM
In regards to the OP

I think it has been said before, that Enchanted items can already get a +3 to them, and you can start doing that at level 14. Magic Vestment becomes +4 at level 16 cleric and +5 at level 20 cleric.

This is balanced for people who invest in a full cleric. If you're a fighter/cleric build. 5 fighter 15 cleric assuming. Then you'll only ever have +3. People who typically benefit from a +5 Magic Vestment is not the cleric, but the group in later levels. It is essential for end game content that there is a group dynamic to hit the high end dungeons.

For Divine power being able to be casted above Bulls strength, and I've used this before, I don't think it's an issue. This is what can make melee clerics shine if they are intending to be a melee cleric. And it has been said before; Clerics are delicate, a simple strip of their buffs and they become absolutely useless as a melee cleric.

You won't see a support cleric using Divine Power on themselves and then bulls strength, unless it's with a crowbar and you're trying to open a door.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Ercvadasz on December 27, 2012, 02:00:54 PM
I would say the following with melee and cleric comparison.
Buff up a level 20 cleric with his own spells, and with the other caster classes (Bard, druid, wizard) and feats.
Now buff up a level 20 fighter with the clerics and the other caster classes spells  and feats.

Cleric will likely beat the Fighter in AB. No matter what you do. HE will have one less attack but that is the only difference. The divine power, favour added together will easily balance out the 4-5 ab difference. Also same with the ranger as well, and ab wise barbs have it a bit better.

Now rogue skill dumping: That and evasion. Evasion is worth a lot.

Cleric vs Meleer disjunction? Any of them gets disjunctioned it is over, without buffs each and everyone dies. Maybe the cleric can rebuff the fighter maybe he cant, maybe he can run away maybe he cannot. (Maybe if he buffs the fighter he can use him as a meatshield.) Also he can easily regain lost AB or AC with recasting the Divine shield and power. Whereas fighter can enter ICE +10 AC -10 AB...and likely will still be hit. (Just think on all those nasty +30 AB critters)

About soloer clerics:
-they exist
-most players support them because:
a, you ask him first to help you retrieve corpses, because he can, since he is a solo build, you will not get much rp(most of the time, but it is not necessary true!), but he will get the job done. And you want only THIS.
b, you buy items off from him, accept his gifts, venture with him to places even if you cant do there anything, why? Because: Free xp, free loot, free sightseeing. You will be his tourist, just he pays you to see how awesome he is
c, you do not stay persistant how you act towards him. if you have the chance to ask help from him, or from two lower level chars, you will ask him, even if you despise the character due to IC reasons or whatnot. OOC rescue before IC reasons and play.

The you in this context does not mean everyone, it means to those who act this way, you know who you are or you do not. Just as long as it is rewarding both
XP, Item, community and whatnot wise to do so, nothing will change.

//I also understand there are a number of clerics who can only buff folks from same religion or themselves or whatnot, so that is of course exluded//
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: aprogressivist on December 27, 2012, 02:12:19 PM
As the player of a caster, I'd rather have a level 20 Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian to tank in Perfidus than a level 20 Cleric. With the Cleric, you can win one or two encounters for sure but then you're waiting 30 minutes for him to rest and recuperate his spells.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Crimson Shuriken on December 27, 2012, 02:28:56 PM
Clerics...   they don't need further reduction in effectiveness. Once upon a time a Divine Power nerf might have been worth considering but with vestment and divine favor getting their effectiveness reduced they are well in line with everyone else and don't really require any further tweaking.

Also what he said,  clerics are not a replacement for a true melee class and they never really have been but its especially true now.
How many of you are even of a pure cleric level to know just how effective or not they are any way? If you are taking a snapshot of ~level 8 your impression of clerics will be skewed but the other classes quickly catch up and then surpass them in power.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Green Monster on December 27, 2012, 02:40:10 PM
If you're power buffing yourself as a cleric when you have a true warrior class nearby, you are not very good at the mechanical aspect of the game.
Clerics are only an off-tank at best, and unfortunately I've noticed far too commonly a bunch of people only willing to buff themselves when they have a full BAB standing around. When you buff yourself as a cleric you become just as good as a fighter, maybe even a little bit better. When you buff a warrior class, they turn into a frothing, unstoppable juggernaut berserker.

100% True. But I can't think of any mechanical way to alter people's behaviour. Still, on a server where the highest possible enchanted armour or shield you can get is +3, then that should also be the max for magic vestment. And if the "good" players aren't stacking bull's strength on top of divine power, it won't hurt them to make those spells not stack.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Ercvadasz on December 27, 2012, 02:42:08 PM
Well after once seeing a cleric get 55+ AB just with self buffs i had no questions:)
(also his str was over 32)
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Zarathustra217 on December 27, 2012, 07:46:37 PM
I should make a sticky somewhere stating once and for all that it's my firm belief that the HotU expansion is the root of the imbalances between classes and the reason why casters started to turn toward (mainly) self buffing rather than party buffing. It was very obvious back when the expansion was just released and you started seeing these lone wolf powerhouses all over.

Point is, personally I agree with the OP. But it's also true that the most important aspect is the mindset of the player, and it's much less easy to change that. So I wonder if it's worth the trouble?
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Amon-Si on December 27, 2012, 07:49:19 PM
I should make a sticky somewhere stating once and for all that it's my firm belief that the HotU expansion is the root of the imbalances between classes and the reason why casters started to turn toward (mainly) self buffing rather than party buffing. It was very obvious back when the expansion was just released and you started seeing these lone wolf powerhouses all over.

Point is, personally I agree with the OP. But it's also true that the most important aspect is the mindset of the player, and it's much less easy to change that. So I wonder if it's worth the trouble?

As I travel the world I will be tracking down POTMers and installing the appropriate fair play mind control chip. It's the only way.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Ovidiu_Lacusta on December 27, 2012, 08:39:43 PM
Quote
the cleric's buffs, and being able to do so in armor, pretty much render the true warrior classes obsolete and is why we have so many clerics who don't seem to know any of their God's dogma. Time for the nerf-bat.

...Dark Powers to start and Huecuvas to finish, Clerics should know their stuff!  Applications to play the cleric class!
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Silverfox on December 27, 2012, 08:42:58 PM
The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

Better thing to do imo if you're going to suggest things like that, in jest or otherwise, would be consequences for not "doing it right" lol.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Honoun on December 27, 2012, 09:11:00 PM
Having a pure cleric I can attest that its not all uber greatness most of you seem to think it is. I don't know how many times I've had her dungeoning and some critter casts dispell on her or some other debuffing skill and ... oh crud, look at my health go down like there is no tomorrow time to run and run fast! And she does buff others if they ask her but she's not going to if your char says nothing. So if you want her to buff you then say it! She is not a mind reader! She is actually at the point where she can buff herself and one other fully now so look her up if you're a fighter. She'll make you so uber the victory we will have in glorious battle is going to please her and her god, so go on and ask her.

Do I solo with her? Sure sometimes but thats only because there is nobody else around to RP with at the time cause frankly I would rather be RP with someone than hacking up Thugs all by my lonesome self in Dement to get diamonds, (which she has quite a lot now by the way), all the time cause I'm feaking bored.

Bottom line is I prefer grouping but these days nobody seems to want to group with her. Go figure.

Of course I'm always asked to log her in when I'm engaged with RP on another char that I can't just suddenly leave, why always me... WHY?  :P

Here's a thought if you want her in your party let me know way ahead of time, you know so I can finish up any current activity I may currently be in ;)
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: aprogressivist on December 27, 2012, 09:12:29 PM
Poor Asta la Vista. No-one wants to play with her :(
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Honoun on December 27, 2012, 09:15:33 PM
Personly I think its cause of the language barrier, but thats a whole other topic :P
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on December 27, 2012, 10:14:41 PM
I love the gibberish.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Lucadia on December 27, 2012, 11:09:07 PM
this sounds like another "they are not buffing me,plz do something" after reading this
p.s. 24 str with divine power is not impressive
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: BalorVale on December 28, 2012, 04:13:35 AM
this sounds like another "they are not buffing me,plz do something" after reading this
p.s. 24 str with divine power is not impressive

Don't belittle the thread, even Zarathustra believes his words to have merit. Be excellent to each other If you have nothing constructive to say don't say it.

I think clerics have the ability to be very overpowered in certain situations, just as most classes do;

Rogues/Rangers Shine on getting the jump on someone

Fighters/Barbarians/Monks Shine at pure killing power without the need of relying on buffs

Sorcerers/Wizard Can be very versatile depending on the spell selection, if the enemy is not prepared to fight magic, they can be deadly very quickly, but low HP ensures death if they stay in combat too long (Glass Cannons)

Clerics/Paladins Can be ruthless when fought while they are buffed, catch them unawares or dispelling those precious wards makes them down to a low quality fighter.

Druids/Bards are jacks of all trades able to fill almost any role, whether it be healer, tank or flanker, they are silver of all, gold of none with interesting assets to bring to the table, they can be countered by thier more robust counterparts, but under their tactics and play-style they can prevail as any other class does.

To say one class is stronger, yes. Yes they are, but only because you have them in the situation that is their advantage. Proper Planning Prevents Poor Performance.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Honoun on December 28, 2012, 04:53:20 AM
Well said Balor, if only more would realise this the server would be a happier place... Oh wait ...  :oops: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Lucadia on December 28, 2012, 06:36:07 AM
i didt belitlle it at all, i sumed up the main point, no amount of spell nerfs is going to get
your cleric to be a team player. ether they was before hand or not.

every time some body dont get what they believe is due to them they want see anotner
class take a nerf.

now do i think clerics are over the top here   yes

but asking for a class to be balanced based on players not buffing xyz class is not way to
go about it.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Honoun on December 28, 2012, 07:32:12 AM
The thing is as I can attest to, once a successfully dispel is cast on cleric they are weak, with out their buffs a cleric is so freaking vulnerable that they are easily defeated. All it takes is bit of planning and if played right a cleric can be beaten with ease. Honestly this is no more than a PvP concern, cause if you were playing this game as it was intended then you'd be wanting that buffed up cleric with you no questions asked. To say that its other wise is to be lying or you have no idea how it all works.

D&D was a team effort after all, the group against the world.

Am I upset? A little, certainly I'm tired of these threads that ask for nerfing cleric spells cause PvP players can't seem to get it through their thick skulls that they are just not timing their attacks well enough or are not being that smart with a dispel when they can be. Only to leave us mediocre players to suffer due to these nerfs that leaves us less effective in a team set up. Having trouble? Then play smarter.

I know I'm going to regret posting this but I feel it needs to be said.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Ovidiu_Lacusta on December 28, 2012, 12:28:56 PM
I can hold my breath for about as long as Divine Power lasts.

Also, Ravenloft has implemented those setting specific nerfs, which I highly support and I'm quite proud of.  We also fixed those pesky stacking damage shields, fixed other things to fit 3.5, but I'll tell you something:

If this is about not being able to triumph over a cleric?  I dare you to find a way to defeat your enemy without use of PvP at all.

Spoiler: show
I once sent a letter that caused the end of the world for my foe.  ;)
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Honoun on December 30, 2012, 06:54:17 PM
Yes the duration time of Divine Power is very short which is why my cleric never bothers with it for the most part, she saves it for those situations where she may find herself in when she might need that little extra boost for a short while. Other than that, she never uses it.

End result being she never ever uses it cause I'm a mediocre player and so forget to cast the darn thing when it actually matters  :|
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: TheJustLawOfShamash on January 14, 2013, 03:04:38 PM
Minor nitpick.  Many, many people in this thread have repeatedly stated that you have to be a level 20 cleric to get a +5 from Magic Vestment.  This is not true.  The bonus from Magic Vestment and GMW goes to +5 at level 15.

From a personal standpoint, the cleric spells that truly bother me the most are Divine Power, Holy Word, and Implosion.  Divine Power, because it is, by it's nature, a spell that can only be used in a selfish manner, thus encouraging clerics to buff themselves rather than the party to get the most out of this very tasty spell.   Holy Word, simply because it's very overpowered in PvP, what with it allowing no save.  Implosion, because the only way to defend against it is to make a successful save, meaning that even a level 20 Dwarven Defender has a 1 in 20 shot of getting insta-pwned by this spell.  Though my real problem with implosion is that it just doesn't feel like a cleric spell, thematically. :P Maybe if it was a beam of holy smiting light rather than a whirling vortex of super-pressurized atmosphere.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on January 14, 2013, 03:05:53 PM
Minor nitpick.  Many, many people in this thread have repeatedly stated that you have to be a level 20 cleric to get a +5 from Magic Vestment.  This is not true.  The bonus from Magic Vestment and GMW goes to +5 at level 15.

From a personal standpoint, the cleric spells that truly bother me the most are Divine Power, Holy Word, and Implosion.  Divine Power, because it is, by it's nature, a spell that can only be used in a selfish manner, thus encouraging clerics to buff themselves rather than the party to get the most out of this very tasty spell.   Holy Word, simply because it's very overpowered in PvP, what with it allowing no save.  Implosion, because the only way to defend against it is to make a successful save, meaning that even a level 20 Dwarven Defender has a 1 in 20 shot of getting insta-pwned by this spell.  Though my real problem with implosion is that it just doesn't feel like a cleric spell, thematically. :P Maybe if it was a beam of holy smiting light rather than a whirling vortex of super-pressurized atmosphere.

Just my two cents.

Spells have been modified for balance's sake on PotM. There is an incomplete list of the changes here on the forums.

Greater Magic Weapon
Caster Level: Bard 3, Cleric 4, Paladin 3, Wizard/Sorcerer 3  (Gained at level - 8/Bard, 7/Cleric, 12/Paladin, 5/Wizard, 6/Sorcerer)
Innate Level: 3 School: Transmutation
Component(s): V, S Range: Touch
Save: None - Spell Resistance: No
Area of Effect/Target: Creature or Melee Weapon
Duration: 1 Turn + 1 Turn / Level
Description: You empower the touched weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus per 4 caster levels (maximum of +4). You can either directly target the weapon you want to cast this spell on, or you can target a creature, affecting the creature's main hand weapon.

Level 4 +1 enhancement
Level 8 +2 enhancement
Level 12 +3 enhancement
Level 16 +4 enhancement
Level 20 +5 enhancement

Magic Vestment
Caster Level: Cleric 3 (Gained at level 5/Cleric)
Innate Level: 3 School: Transmutation
Component(s): V, S Range: Touch
Save: None - Spell Resistance: No
Area of Effect/Target: Creature, Armor or Shield
Duration: 1 Turn + 1 Turn / Level
Description: You empower the touched armor or shield with a +1 AC bonus per 4 caster levels (minimum of +1).

Level 1 +1AC
Level 8 +2AC
Level 12 +3AC
Level 16 +4AC
Level 20 +5AC

If I have any beef about Clerics, it's that Darkfire is somehow more awesome than Flame Weapon. COME ON, GIVE MAGES SOMETHING.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: What does the scanner see on January 14, 2013, 07:47:53 PM
The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

I can get behind this. There are so few WELL played Paladins. As my old 2.0 DM told me one "If a paladin lives past level 5, they either aren't doing their job right or the gods have a serious plan for them". And related to this, why not make clerics a little more monitored? I know in PnP it's DEVASTATING to a character if they fall from their god, that needs to be the case here.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Phantasia on January 14, 2013, 08:03:46 PM
Applications for casters and Paladins would be an interesting thing to see. I am most likely going to receive a lot of flack if I start advocating it. Something to be left in the air, but certainly not brushed aside.

My two cents.


The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

All of the base classes are open for anyone to use, and I think applications for PrCs is a given if the server is allowing that much freedom already. Sure, some multiclassing rules apply with the base, but that's to prevent silly powerbuilds that I know a lot of people would hate. I'd have to say Paladin, Cleric, and Druid would be my choices.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Bodhidharma on January 14, 2013, 08:12:26 PM
My character has access to the 7th circle of cleric spells and he doesn't even use Divine Power but despite that I do not agree to the nerf simply because Divine Power is supposed to function slightly different which means it could potentially become stronger than it actually is in NWN.

As for the bulls strength + divine power combination, if memory serves me right it has to be cast in that specific order and once divine power fades out you cannot do this again.

Magic vestment: I think this has been clarified by everyone else.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: EberronBruce on January 14, 2013, 08:21:59 PM
The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

Problem with any application process is someone has to look over it. That takes time out of others and can have a stockpile of applications to go through. Just imagine all the PRC apps and AMPC/MPC apps as well. Throw in some base classes and now that is just more to the pile.  However, I do think serious consideration behind paladin, clerics, and even monks should be thought of. Like who they are, their background, their RP perspectives, how did they get into that position, and what do their religion or god expect from them. These are just some ideas. If application is feasibly possible then it may help, but we got to remember someone has to look over them and approve.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Elfric on January 14, 2013, 08:35:45 PM
Shouldn't we just make divine casters actual lose powers when their faith fails? <_< It would put a nail in the coffin of selfish "Good" clerics and paladins.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Silverfox on January 14, 2013, 08:46:51 PM
I'm not advocating apps lol.

I'd do away with them for the PRCs if it were up to me, so let's not all get the wrong idea from my previous post.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Angry Nerd on January 14, 2013, 09:12:22 PM
The problem, and difference between an NWN PW and a PnP campaign (discussing clerics and paladins being watched closely) is that in a PnP game, the DM observes everything. In a PW with a playerbase this size, that's just not possible for a DM to monitor them at all times and lay the smack down on a cleric who doesn't pray at the appropriate time for their chosen god, or a Paladin to adhere to the very letter of their tenets. I think it would be better if the playerbase policed themselves in this case, and leave the already overworked DMs and Devs alone. How? Well, that's open to debate.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: dutchy on January 14, 2013, 09:19:12 PM
The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

I can get behind this. There are so few WELL played Paladins. As my old 2.0 DM told me one "If a paladin lives past level 5, they either aren't doing their job right or the gods have a serious plan for them". And related to this, why not make clerics a little more monitored? I know in PnP it's DEVASTATING to a character if they fall from their god, that needs to be the case here.

do you know every god in the dnd worlds?  i dont   and i doubt the dm's do to, its a nice idea but not dooable  there so many difrant gods so many difrant aproaches its *head explodes*
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Strife on January 14, 2013, 09:55:06 PM
 I read page 1, 2, parts of 3 and a bit of 4. As many have said this topic is nothing new but I'm in a mood (I don't post a ton) so I'll keep it short and sweet  :)

 I have three PC's I play, a pure fighter, a pure rogue and a pure spell caster and I love them all for their diverse ability to "roleplay" that class. Okay, slight dig aside I don't think anybody has touched on the effect our crafting system has on classes? (correct me if I'm wrong). My fighter, as much as he would love to have a long standing cleric at his side does quite well spending his gold on potions which emulate (not replicate) a cleric.

let's be honest, if there is one thing on this server that could easily be considered "strange for Ravenloft standards" it would be the ability to generate gold and it's not uncommon to see players strolling through the dead of night with thousands on board.... wait... how does one carry 50,000 gold anyway wouldn't that be physically impossible...

Hrm, just gave me an idea next time I'm client side.  :twisted:

Bottom line is, we spend too much time on dissecting rules, nerfs, and "that other class" and not enough time on what drives this server! A few mentioned it, folks if you play a cleric/paladin tust saying.

There was a time we would do a stop/search and questionnaire on gods and alignment for those with divine powers. Perhaps a few spot checks are in order.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: What does the scanner see on January 14, 2013, 09:56:05 PM
The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

I can get behind this. There are so few WELL played Paladins. As my old 2.0 DM told me one "If a paladin lives past level 5, they either aren't doing their job right or the gods have a serious plan for them". And related to this, why not make clerics a little more monitored? I know in PnP it's DEVASTATING to a character if they fall from their god, that needs to be the case here.

do you know every god in the dnd worlds?  i dont   and i doubt the dm's do to, its a nice idea but not dooable  there so many difrant gods so many difrant aproaches its *head explodes*

Take that list and knock it down to only LG deities. Then look at the fact that everyone pretty much uses the same ones? Morninglord, Ezra, Tyr, Torm, Heironius (rarely) and Sune, it isn't hard. Plus, we have the internet...we can learn whatever we need whenever we need it. Read one article and you are good to go.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Elfric on January 14, 2013, 09:57:36 PM
The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

I can get behind this. There are so few WELL played Paladins. As my old 2.0 DM told me one "If a paladin lives past level 5, they either aren't doing their job right or the gods have a serious plan for them". And related to this, why not make clerics a little more monitored? I know in PnP it's DEVASTATING to a character if they fall from their god, that needs to be the case here.

do you know every god in the dnd worlds?  i dont   and i doubt the dm's do to, its a nice idea but not dooable  there so many difrant gods so many difrant aproaches its *head explodes*

Take that list and knock it down to only LG deities. Then look at the fact that everyone pretty much uses the same ones? Morninglord, Ezra, Tyr, Torm, Heironius (rarely) and Sune, it isn't hard. Plus, we have the internet...we can learn whatever we need whenever we need it. Read one article and you are good to go.
Yeah but how many actually follow the doctrines/domains/rites required to keep and show the faith?
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: herkles on January 14, 2013, 10:04:06 PM
@What does the scanner see: first Ezra is LN not LG. Second and the big thing is that in Ravenloft, Gods are distant if not there at all. They don't interfer in the Mists, and as such clerics have to suffer from crisises of faith and so on. It is on the individual not the gods. also the Dark Powers can intervene, there after all is a darklord who thinks she is still a paladin  :twisted:
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Elfric on January 14, 2013, 10:07:47 PM
@What does the scanner see: first Ezra is LN not LG. Second and the big thing is that in Ravenloft, Gods are distant if not there at all. They don't interfer in the Mists, and as such clerics have to suffer from crisises of faith and so on. It is on the individual not the gods. also the Dark Powers can intervene, there after all is a darklord who thinks she is still a paladin  :twisted:

The god doesn't matter, just the faith of the person. If they believe they've fallen, then they have. Which giving majority of the teachings and requirement, happens often. Unless you're that crazy lady.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Crimson Shuriken on January 14, 2013, 10:21:59 PM
There are a lot of things wrong with that post to include:

- Paladins are not an especially direct reflection of their patron deities dogma, not nearly as much so as a cleric would be
- They follow the one step rule (with few exceptions Sune being one of them) so many of their patrons are not even LG since NG and LN deities suffice, including some you listed as the "common" ones and some other "common" ones like Helm. The paladin is dogmatically LG though, but there are quite a decent sized variance on what will constitute their "lawful" axis from one paladin background to the next. You won't see cookie cutter paladin roleplay, even among two of the same faith. Even if that was not true every player should reserve some space for their own nuances that make the character their own.
- Not everyone enjoys dungeons and dragons for the immense in-character lore, so researching into a fantasy faith might be something done on minimal so as to feel confident to play a cleric of X. Maybe on the internet as you say.  I promise you that will be a character worthy of a nitpick to one intimately familiar with the faith they are portraying though. Which goes back to policing subjective things. Leeway into the realm of ignorant mistakes can go a long way, and help everyone keep a good spirit of storytelling without having to stop and rules lawyer things which is the role of DMs, even if you personally don't feel they do enough of it.

In any case,  my opinion on the way this thread is headed is like many other attempts to police subjectivity: its not a good idea. I consider myself a good roleplayer and I happen to be a somewhat learned player on the fantasy religions of the dnd game and I see things all the time that irk me because I probably have read more about the faith being represented so the deviations stand out clearly to me that are probably overlooked by others. And sure I realize there are sometimes cases where a character will deviate from their alignment or even their dogmatic belief system and you may witness a moment that is an outlier in the grande scheme of the character. Ultimately though I think its always better to trust the player's control of their character and trust that their behavior on the whole is a good reflection of their character and the fantasy literature that spawned their beliefs than to police things with a policy. And I feel we all have more interesting and entertaining ways to spend our PotM time than to worry overly much about the portrayals of other people's player characters.             
 And if you ever witness something COMPLETELY and TOTALLY off about religious roleplay, then ask the player about it. They may just have a fall storyline in mind and you could just not realize.  Or they could be masquerading as a member of another church but really be in-character by doing so. Or, maybe you can share them a link in a pm that covers their dogma in a friendly and helpful gesture in good faith. The one thing I would share is that while I have seen a few bad examples of clerics on potm over the years I have seen a great deal more that were inspiring good fun to watch. People recall the bads too often.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Troukk on January 14, 2013, 10:33:06 PM
You gotta be careful when you're trying to use Forgotten Realms standards in Ravenloft. The Mists -are not- Faerun. Clerics don't speak to their gods here. Divine power here is confusing and so are religions. In fact, the way I see it, if your cleric is too damn faithful and makes no mistakes canonwise, then you're probably playing him wrong here in Ravenloft. Your cleric should have crisis of faith, he should confuse his god with other gods, he should inadvertedly or purposefully make changes to the rituals regarding his religion. At least that's how I play my main, who happens to be a pure cleric. It's also a lot more fun because it lets you be creative.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Crimson Shuriken on January 14, 2013, 10:56:58 PM
Eh, crisis in faith is a term bandied about a bit. I tend to think its off-base though, the existence or not of their gods is not a question at all and to waiver in their belief system much is far fetched story wise, since a few years of doubt don't trump a lifetime's upbringing in the cloth or in the particular case of FR, a life time of the most religious setting imaginable where prayers are uttered by anyone and everyone favors one or more gods from every walk of life. They might wonder whether or not they are making the right choices sure, but its not like the other settings have personal divine counsel either during prayer so such things are only mitigated by having access to elders of their faiths and the support systems of their churches. Clerics in other settings have crisis of faith all the time, its not a function of Ravenloft that it may happen. There are examples in other settings of crisis of faith, such as Halisstra Melarn has multiple periods of crisis in whatever goddess she served and she is a cleric.  Its the island of one mentality that is the most influential modification of outlander cleric roleplay to me because the organization of the church is a self serving ecosystem that keeps dogma at the fore but its overblown that clerics should lose their way because they don't have direct counsel with avatars as its an extremely rare occurrence even in their home-planes unless you are an extreme high position in clerical hierarchy that any nubile pubescent acolyte level 2 arriving here as we have would never had experienced much of.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: What does the scanner see on January 15, 2013, 12:56:20 AM
The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

I can get behind this. There are so few WELL played Paladins. As my old 2.0 DM told me one "If a paladin lives past level 5, they either aren't doing their job right or the gods have a serious plan for them". And related to this, why not make clerics a little more monitored? I know in PnP it's DEVASTATING to a character if they fall from their god, that needs to be the case here.

do you know every god in the dnd worlds?  i dont   and i doubt the dm's do to, its a nice idea but not dooable  there so many difrant gods so many difrant aproaches its *head explodes*

Take that list and knock it down to only LG deities. Then look at the fact that everyone pretty much uses the same ones? Morninglord, Ezra, Tyr, Torm, Heironius (rarely) and Sune, it isn't hard. Plus, we have the internet...we can learn whatever we need whenever we need it. Read one article and you are good to go.
Yeah but how many actually follow the doctrines/domains/rites required to keep and show the faith?

Exactly my point.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on January 15, 2013, 01:15:20 AM
If I were a DM, I bet I could entertain myself for a lifetime by tormenting Clerics and Paladins who don't live up to their faiths... hmm.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Elfric on January 15, 2013, 01:20:48 AM
If I were a DM, I bet I could entertain myself for a lifetime by tormenting Clerics and Paladins who don't live up to their faiths... hmm.

[Cough]DMAPP[Cough]
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Bodhidharma on January 15, 2013, 10:19:09 AM
I'm curious how you would be able to do so, what can be done about it exactly?
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Ercvadasz on January 15, 2013, 12:13:24 PM
Doctrines, dogmas and the like:
Wonder how many folks play a paladin, when they are actually knights of some evil God or Goddess.
Simply because Blackguard is a prc, and it needs application.
Also what is your stance on the matter, how do you see it? Is it perfectly okay, or should day start as rangers or fighters or maybe barbarians?
(Ranger or fighter does not have allignement restriction, whereas paladin does.)
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on January 15, 2013, 12:22:03 PM
Doctrines, dogmas and the like:
Wonder how many folks play a paladin, when they are actually knights of some evil God or Goddess.
Simply because Blackguard is a prc, and it needs application.
Also what is your stance on the matter, how do you see it? Is it perfectly okay, or should day start as rangers or fighters or maybe barbarians?
(Ranger or fighter does not have allignement restriction, whereas paladin does.)


Paladins are paladins, period. There should be no wiggle room there.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: aprogressivist on January 15, 2013, 12:24:37 PM
I've never seen anyone play the paladin of an evil God.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Silverfox on January 15, 2013, 12:46:27 PM
Played a Paladin of Tyranny in another gameworld. But that had haks etc to support it. Here, I haven't seen anything like it. Pity really lol. That said, when Good is played properly, Evil gets powerful simply out of the virtue it doesn't have the same moral limitations. (i.e. a lack of obligation to mercy)
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Ovidiu_Lacusta on January 15, 2013, 01:25:28 PM
It's more feasible to get +5 varnishes and slap one on your armor for a fight than acquire 20 levels in cleric just for the vestment; I am unsure if that works for a shield, though.

When it comes to policing clerics on their domains, dogma and vows, who has time to do Cleric Audit 2013?  To ask whether the cleric has obtained a single convert for their faith.  I think no matter your alignment spreading the faith is something that clerics should be concerned with.  Everyone else may not agree though.

I personally believe the best improvement will come from an effort into revising the standard NWN clerical domains, and move to something that is roleplay centered and more balanced. Divine Power, Vestment are not broken, domains are.  Those setting specific clerical domains (Mist, Law, etc)  make available creative incentives to roll up Core natives with access to them - just as much as Drow could get the Cavern domain.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: aprogressivist on January 15, 2013, 01:29:10 PM
It's more feasible to get +5 varnishes and slap one on your armor for a fight than acquire 20 levels in cleric just for the vestment; I am unsure if that works for a shield, though.

Fairly sure it does. I regularly use +3 varnishes on my shields.






As for the cleric stuff -- remember that DMs can give DPs for breaking tenets of one's religion.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Bad_Bud on January 15, 2013, 06:27:10 PM
Capping Magic Vestment at +3
A solo cleric would in response require more self-buffing to maintain their power, making it even less likely for buffs to find their way to allies.  My support cleric would be less helpful and desirable to party with.

Divine Power and Bull's Strength
The concept is one must have a strength value below 18 (I would think most solo clerics already have 18 strength) and cast divine power first, bull's strength second.  Without haste, try casting divine power, prayer, divine favor, then bull's strength.  If you're willing to waste four rounds like this casting spells in the middle of an important fight, I think you're in trouble.  Gaining maybe one strength ability modifier for all that hassle, and only being able to do so once every 30 minutes makes it hardly worth thinking about.  On the PvP side, if a cleric started chain casting these temporary buffs in an attempt to fight one of my characters, I would probably laugh and run in circles for two minutes.  Then kill them.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: LackofCertainty on January 15, 2013, 07:42:47 PM
I would love it if the new player area got a big sign for clerics and paladins that says, "When you arrive in Barovia, you feel distant from your god.  You still receive spells and powers from them, but you are no longer able to directly commune with them.  For many clerics and paladins, this leads to depression, though how you choose to roleplay this effect on your character is up to you."
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Geiger on January 15, 2013, 07:48:58 PM
I agree with that.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on January 15, 2013, 08:00:48 PM
I would love it if the new player area got a big sign for clerics and paladins that says, "When you arrive in Barovia, you feel distant from your god.  You still receive spells and powers from them, but you are no longer able to directly commune with them.  For many clerics and paladins, this leads to depression, though how you choose to roleplay this effect on your character is up to you."

Also, "Detect Evil does not work how you think it works. Stop spamming it."
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: TheJustLawOfShamash on January 15, 2013, 10:41:22 PM
Also, "Detect Evil does not work how you think it works. Stop spamming it."

(http://www.the-international-entrepreneur.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/radar1.jpg)

It works like this, of course.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Geiger on January 15, 2013, 10:44:56 PM
Actually, I like detect evil. It's awesome and is awesome element on how it works and I hardly ever see people use it.

It's very funny especially when you are a Paladin and you use it in the ML temple to find out every single NPC is evil according to the power. You get detailed information on the aura even from specific names if you are close enough to them.

I have in the past left parties and created antagonism over impiety and vileness where it really isn't warranted simply by that misdirection. Hahahah. It's great.

..and while funny, your picture really does demonstrate how it works. Paladins can do that and on here they are unaware of the fact it is with chaotic alignments, not evil ones.

MORAL DILEMMA, GOTHIC HORRO! Weeeeeeeeeee! Are they evil? Truly? Are you sure? Are you.. confused at their aid of the suffering people, when your so-called divine clarity tells you otherwise? NOOOOO~
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: dutchy on January 15, 2013, 10:54:48 PM
I would love it if the new player area got a big sign for clerics and paladins that says, "When you arrive in Barovia, you feel distant from your god.  You still receive spells and powers from them, but you are no longer able to directly commune with them.  For many clerics and paladins, this leads to depression, though how you choose to roleplay this effect on your character is up to you."

also they get a free knife and instructions on how to properly slit ones wrist?   depending on race ofcourse.

sorry sorry i know i couldnt help myself i just saw the sign and the poster next to it with all the races saying how and where to cut.

Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Zhernebog on January 16, 2013, 03:23:06 AM
Capping Magic Vestment at +3
A solo cleric would in response require more self-buffing to maintain their power, making it even less likely for buffs to find their way to allies.  My support cleric would be less helpful and desirable to party with.
Why would they require any other buffs besides invis? Stay in the back and watch me dance, magick man.

Divine Power and Bull's Strength
The concept is one must have a strength value below 18 (I would think most solo clerics already have 18 strength) and cast divine power first, bull's strength second.  Without haste, try casting divine power, prayer, divine favor, then bull's strength.  If you're willing to waste four rounds like this casting spells in the middle of an important fight, I think you're in trouble.  Gaining maybe one strength ability modifier for all that hassle, and only being able to do so once every 30 minutes makes it hardly worth thinking about.  On the PvP side, if a cleric started chain casting these temporary buffs in an attempt to fight one of my characters, I would probably laugh and run in circles for two minutes.  Then kill them.
(Tone of this was kinda sassy, edited)
The thread is seemingly about how cancerous self-buffers are to teamwork, and looking for solutions to solve that, I see no downside with implementing this debuffs, and insofar, the rallying cry against implementation is "OH LAWDY NO"
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Crimson Shuriken on January 16, 2013, 04:50:39 AM
Badbud made tons of sense. I am having difficulty understanding your counter point.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Badelaire on January 16, 2013, 07:58:45 AM
Just seems like another case of players not liking how a very small minority play a class and wanting to impose some means of mechanical wrist slap that affects everyone. This seems to be the mindset for literally everything (people ninja loot a certain place constantly? Loot drop gets nerfed and no one else has the ability to get items said ninja looters already acquired. Also see: Greater Sanctuary scrolls) rather than try and encourageteam work and unity. I could start a thread on how wizards need to be nerfed because of the sheer amount of Christ-like ones running around who do little but invis and snatch all the loot but I just choose to not party with them when it becomes apparent IC they're selfish and geedy.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: dutchy on January 16, 2013, 08:49:44 AM
Capping Magic Vestment at +3
A solo cleric would in response require more self-buffing to maintain their power, making it even less likely for buffs to find their way to allies.  My support cleric would be less helpful and desirable to party with.
Why would they require any other buffs besides invis? Stay in the back and watch me dance, magick man.

Divine Power and Bull's Strength
The concept is one must have a strength value below 18 (I would think most solo clerics already have 18 strength) and cast divine power first, bull's strength second.  Without haste, try casting divine power, prayer, divine favor, then bull's strength.  If you're willing to waste four rounds like this casting spells in the middle of an important fight, I think you're in trouble.  Gaining maybe one strength ability modifier for all that hassle, and only being able to do so once every 30 minutes makes it hardly worth thinking about.  On the PvP side, if a cleric started chain casting these temporary buffs in an attempt to fight one of my characters, I would probably laugh and run in circles for two minutes.  Then kill them.
On the pvp side I think it's pretty laughable to consider your character even involving himself. lvl20>lvl12 cleric
That being said, the thread is about how cancerous self-buffers are to teamwork and looking for solutions to solve that, I see no downside with implementing this debuffs, and insofar, the rallying cry against implementation is "OH LAWDY NO"

I hope the invisible thing was a joke cause if you think a cleric plays for you to pwn and just stand and watch then you have a bad view on  the fact everyone is here to have fun thing.

As for the pvp lvl 20 vs a 12?  Where do you get these numbers bad bud has more then 1 char   this seems personal for you.

Really people you wish to nerf a cleric, how would a cleric defend himself incase of a back spawn ?  His ac is his only life line until the front fighter(s) notice and help that can go wrong fast and everyone loses their free healing.   

If someone doesn't party buff but only self buffs don't part with him, that's how you change it if we do that long enough the self buffers will diminish into rare numbers
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Zhernebog on January 16, 2013, 09:42:35 AM
Badbud made tons of sense. I am having difficulty understanding your counter point.
I am having difficulty seeing how this suggested change would be anything more than a positive change. From what I observed we usually have tons and tons of full bab classes around every level range and alignment, so finding someone to buff shouldn't be a huge issue.
Seeing how the server is meant for(or highly suggests) teamwork as opposed to soloing, adding a mechanical nudge in the right direction might add more weight to that. The downside of allowing these buffs to stack is two wasted spell slots on top of the others that are used to keep the cleric moving in the fray, and not his friends.
Having a character solo doesn't really help anyone on the server but yourself and seems to befit a server geared toward number crunching and grinding, not toward expanding a story and setting.

As for the tone of the previous post, I meant it more light heartedly than it came across, next time I'll take the effort to fully dictate precisely my counterpoint. But it seems as the thread has reached a wall of neutrality, wherein both sides are firmly rooted. I say give it a spin, see if it changes anything. Nobodies going to leave the server in a huffy puffy rage if they can't solo.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: dutchy on January 16, 2013, 10:04:31 AM
Cause I saw plenty of self buffers I made a cleric.   And he buffs others sits in the back and heals

Instead of wanting changes with nerves try to set an example instead.

You might think aaah personal gain. But Nope if nerfs got made they effect the ones I buff not me
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Zhernebog on January 16, 2013, 10:29:53 AM
Cause I saw plenty of self buffers I made a cleric.   And he buffs others sits in the back and heals

Instead of wanting changes with nerves try to set an example instead.
Dutchy is kredit to team+1
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Bad_Bud on January 16, 2013, 10:52:24 AM
Badbud made tons of sense. I am having difficulty understanding your counter point.
I am having difficulty seeing how this suggested change would be anything more than a positive change. From what I observed we usually have tons and tons of full bab classes around every level range and alignment, so finding someone to buff shouldn't be a huge issue.
Seeing how the server is meant for(or highly suggests) teamwork as opposed to soloing, adding a mechanical nudge in the right direction might add more weight to that. The downside of allowing these buffs to stack is two wasted spell slots on top of the others that are used to keep the cleric moving in the fray, and not his friends.
Having a character solo doesn't really help anyone on the server but yourself and seems to befit a server geared toward number crunching and grinding, not toward expanding a story and setting.

As for the tone of the previous post, I meant it more light heartedly than it came across, next time I'll take the effort to fully dictate precisely my counterpoint. But it seems as the thread has reached a wall of neutrality, wherein both sides are firmly rooted. I say give it a spin, see if it changes anything. Nobodies going to leave the server in a huffy puffy rage if they can't solo.

Nerfing a cleric's AC buff (that works on others) is more of a punishment to the others than to the cleric, and that's why it wouldn't be a positive change.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Zhernebog on January 16, 2013, 10:58:51 AM
Nerfing a cleric's AC buff (that works on others) is more of a punishment to the others than to the cleric, and that's why it wouldn't be a positive change.
Derp, let me show my ignorance by not even noticing the ac bonus being apart of the above changes.

I'd like to rephrase that any of my posts should reflect the proposed change on divine power, I completely agree nerfing the shield is pretty dumb.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: aprogressivist on January 16, 2013, 11:02:43 AM
They've already nerfed Divine Power in line with 3.5 tho... don't think it needs more nerfing.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Elfric on January 16, 2013, 11:06:27 AM
Nerfing a cleric's AC buff (that works on others) is more of a punishment to the others than to the cleric, and that's why it wouldn't be a positive change.
Derp, let me show my ignorance by not even noticing the ac bonus being apart of the above changes.

I'd like to rephrase that any of my posts should reflect the proposed change on divine power, I completely agree nerfing the shield is pretty dumb.

Self buff clerics can get over 50, close to 60 ab and ac..... Normally, you'll find self buff clerics over group buff clerics. It's a mentality to be godly.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: shadymerchant on January 16, 2013, 01:14:53 PM
You can't force creativity in roleplaying. If someone has no interest in the dogmatic, religious zeal of a cleric/paly  mechanic changes will not bring an attitude change. It will annoy me though.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: giuvic on February 09, 2013, 10:18:36 PM
if you ever nerf clerics for their AC... please remember to do something about the ones that don't use heavy armor due to their personal dogmas.

I see clerics rather as a versatile option as the options of faiths were too big for the developers to give each faith a specific class structure.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: Silverfox on February 09, 2013, 10:19:45 PM
Thread necromancy! Arise!
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: EberronBruce on February 10, 2013, 01:31:43 AM
I been here awhile just like many of you here is what I see.

I see a rehashing of the same dungeon over and over. Terg crypts being one of them. A cleric can easily solo that so can a paladin. There is no way in hell my fighter can and he is even higher level than the clerics/paladins that do. Why is that? Clerics and Paladins get spells that can boost themselves through the roof especially clerics. My fighter would go through tons of potions and still not have the same effect and it being extremely risky. Too risky for him. Must group up. A cleric can practically solo almost the entire server.

One issue to deal with this is to throw more curve balls at them where their spells wont help them. When I played the AMPC, I used a particular nasty long dungeon that a cleric would find it hard to solo because of its size and monsters base there. I forced those players to work in a team by doing that, which was good for them. That is one way to curve a cleric's godhood. Another is having them have a difficult time turning certain undead or affecting certain creatures with their spells because of them not being tied to their god, especially if it is an outlander god such as Selune or Kevelmor. It should help reflect their distance from their god.

Another is trying to rearrange dungeons or areas where a cleric would have a difficult time soloing but if they get at least one other it makes it doable or a hell of a lot easier.

I seen many paladins go up and just kill whatever even if the thing is running away for the xp. I seen so many clerics that just self buff and ignore the rest of the party not even sparing healing for them. There are lots and lots of players like this and I think a good chunk of these players don't read the forums. I even send them tells explaining the distance from the god bit and you get a response from some of them like STFU. Then again I met a lot of good roleplayers and good clerics that stay back, heal, spread their power to others, same goes for wizards, and paladins. Think with clerics or paladins, especially paladins, is to enforce dogma or code of ethics you need a DM to be on their back, but personally I rather have DMs help with glitches, run stories, and help with more unique aspects than policing clerics and paladin PCs.

Also I notice from stories or plots, that even if a DM runs it, players tend to ignore it as soon as the DM is not there or isn't being enforced by a DM. And when you tell them this is what is going on you are being told you are crazy or something like that.

The problem is mindset, and there is only so much you can do to enforce it mechanically.
Title: Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
Post by: giuvic on February 10, 2013, 10:11:30 AM
Quote
One issue to deal with this is to throw more curve balls at them where their spells wont help them. When I played the AMPC, I used a particular nasty long dungeon that a cleric would find it hard to solo because of its size and monsters base there. I forced those players to work in a team by doing that, which was good for them. That is one way to curve a cleric's godhood.

lol TELL THE TRUTH! you managed a party kill, that's it...
you meanie ghoul only wanted an easy  dinner! :P