Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Green Monster on December 27, 2012, 02:27:37 AM

Title: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 27, 2012, 02:27:37 AM
Right now, herbalism is a god-send to clerics. Due to the ability scores involved, they're naturally good at it, and having a boatload of healing potions that they can actually use on other people means that they can (and do) buff themselves to kingdom come without fear of being short on healing. This is like having extra spells. Meanwhile, mages are naturally good at alchemy, but how does that help them? Very few alchemical products are things the mage will actually be using him or her self and not everyone wants to be a merchant.

Suggestion: new feat: Attune Gem

Requires: Wizard level 5, or Sorcerer level 6, or Bard level 7

System: An arcane caster with the Attune Gem feat casts a spell on a gem. The spell must be of innate level 5 or lower, higher level spells are too powerful to be stored in gems. The spell MUST be a spell that targets the one using the gem because when the spell is later released it targets the nearest person, i.e., the one who crushed the gem, so no attuned gems of Fireball, or even Greater Magic Weapon, but Stoneskin, Etheral Visage, Et-Cetera will work. In order to store the spell, the gem must have a base value that increases exponentially by innate lvl of the spell (see list below) The result is a gem that, when crushed, releases the arcane energies at the person who crushed the gem. Yes, usable by anyone, but only creatable by arcanists. The caster lvl of the spell released is 5 or the lowest level required to cast the spell, whichever is higher (remember, you have to have at least 5 lvls of arcane spellcaster to get the feat). For spells with multiple effects, such as Protection from Alignment, only whichever effect is cast into the gem is stored there. So for example, if you cast Protection from Evil on a gem, it can't later be used to cast Protection from Good. Also note that, unlike craft skills, you must actually know the spell in order to create the attuned gem of that spell. You cannot create attuned gems by casting from a scroll into the gem. Your character must actually understand the spell and be able to cast it to store it's power in a gem.

In other words, casting one of the valid spells on a gem valuable enough to contain it creates a gem with the property Unique Power: Self Only, single use that releases the spell targeting the user, and named "Attuned Gem of <spell name>". These gems have a weight of 0 and a max stack of 10.

And, again, the resultant gems are usable by any one. Just crush them and voila. No chanting, no gestures, and therefore no arcane spell failure or class limitaiton. Wouldn't it be nice if someone other than clerics were able to buff themselves up while in armour? It's not right that in the tougher areas a group with a couple clerics can do just fine without any fighters, but a group with fighters is doomed without some clerics or mages.

If implemented, this might actually open the door for some spell-swords other than clerics!  :shock:

How this compares to crafting:
Requires a FEAT
Requires the creator to be able to CAST THE SPELL HIM/HER SELF
Is VERY COSTLY compared to 9 gold for a potion bottle and some herbs that can be found for free.
The number of gems you can attune in a single day is LIMITED BY THE NUMBER OF SPELLS YOU CAN CAST IN A DAY. You actually cast the spell on the gem in your inventory.
The caster level, and therefore duration in most cases, will be higher than most crafted items
The gems can only be used on yourself, not on others


Required Gem Base Values (base value of gems, you will likely have to pay much more for them if you're not lucky enough to find them)
Innate Level 0 Spells: 15 gp
Innate Level 1 Spells: 30 gp
Innate Level 2 Spells: 60 gp
Innate Level 3 Spells: 120 gp
Innate Level 4 Spells: 240 gp
Innate Level 5 Spells: 480 gp



Eligible Spells, by Innate Level

Innate Lvl: 0, Min Gem Value: 15, Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Cure Minor Wounds, Created by: Bard
Light, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Resistance, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Innate Lvl: 1, Min Gem Value: 30, Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Amplify, Created by: Bard
Cure Light Wounds, Created by: Bard
Endure Elements, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Expeditious Retreat, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Identify, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Mage Armor, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Protection From Evil (effect from Protection From Alignment Spell), Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Protection From Good (effect from Protection From Alignment Spell), Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Shield, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
True Strike, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Innate Lvl: 2, Min Gem Value: 60, Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Bull's Strength, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Cat's Grace, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Clarity, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Cure Moderate Wounds, Created by: Bard
Death Armor, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Eagle's Splendour, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Endurance, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Fox's Cunning, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Ghostly Visage, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Invisibility, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Knock, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Owl's Wisdom, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Resist Elements, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
See Invisibility, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Ultravision, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Innate Lvl: 3, Min Gem Value: 120, Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Cure Serious Wounds, Created by: Bard
Displacement, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Find Traps, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Haste, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Invisibility Sphere, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Magic Circle Against Evil (Effect from Magic Circle Against Alignment), Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Magic Circle Against Good (Effect from Magic Circle Against Alignment), Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Neutralize Poison, Created by: Bard
Protection From Elements, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Remove Blindness/Deafness, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Remove Curse, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Remove Disease, Created by: Bard
Wounding Whispers, Created by: Bard


Innate Lvl: 4, Min Gem Value: 240, Caster Lvl of released spell: 7
Cure Critical Wounds, Created by: Bard
Elemental Shield, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Improved Invisibility, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Polymorph Self: Giant Spider Form (effect from Polymorph Self), Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Polymorph Self: Pixie Form (effect from Polymorph Self), Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Polymorph Self: Troll Form (effect from Polymorph Self), Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Polymorph Self: Umber Hulk Form (effect from Polymorph Self), Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Polymorph Self: Zombie Form (effect from Polymorph Self), Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Shadow Invisibility (effect from Shadow Conjuration). Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Shadow Mage Armor (effect from Shadow Conjuration), Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Stoneskin, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
War Cry, Created by: Bard


Innate Lvl: 5, Min Gem Value: 480, Caster Lvl of released spell: 9
Energy Buffer, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Ethereal Visage, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Healing Circle, Created by: Bard
Legend Lore, Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Lesser Mind Blank, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Lesser Spell Mantle, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Mestil's Acid Sheath, Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Shadow Ghostly Visage (effect from Greater Shadow Conjuration), Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard
Shadow Minor Globe of Invulnerability (effect from Greater Shadow Conjuration), Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard


Eligible Spells, Alphabetical

Amplify
Innate Lvl: 1
Min Gem Value: 30
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard

Bull's Strength
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Cat's Grace
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Innate Lvl: 3
Min Gem Value: 120
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Clarity
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Cure Critical Wounds
Innate Lvl: 4
Min Gem Value: 240
Caster Lvl of released spell: 7
Created by: Bard

Cure Light Wounds
Innate Lvl: 1
Min Gem Value: 30
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard

Cure Minor Wounds
Innate Lvl: 0
Min Gem Value: 15
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard

Cure Moderate Wounds
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard

Cure Serious Wounds
Innate Lvl: 3
Min Gem Value: 120
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard

Death Armor
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Displacement
Innate Lvl: 3
Min Gem Value: 120
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Eagle's Splendour
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Elemental Shield
Innate Lvl: 4
Min Gem Value: 240
Caster Lvl of released spell: 7
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Endurance
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Endure Elements
Innate Lvl: 1
Min Gem Value: 30
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Energy Buffer
Innate Lvl: 5
Min Gem Value: 480
Caster Lvl of released spell: 9
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Ethereal Visage
Innate Lvl: 5
Min Gem Value: 480
Caster Lvl of released spell: 9
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Expeditious Retreat
Innate Lvl: 1
Min Gem Value: 30
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Find Traps
Innate Lvl: 3
Min Gem Value: 120
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Fox's Cunning
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Ghostly Visage
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Haste
Innate Lvl: 3
Min Gem Value: 120
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Healing Circle
Innate Lvl: 5
Min Gem Value: 480
Caster Lvl of released spell: 9
Created by: Bard

Identify
Innate Lvl: 1
Min Gem Value: 30
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Improved Invisibility
Innate Lvl: 4
Min Gem Value: 240
Caster Lvl of released spell: 7
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Invisibility
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Invisibility Sphere
Innate Lvl: 3
Min Gem Value: 120
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Knock
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Legend Lore
Innate Lvl: 5
Min Gem Value: 480
Caster Lvl of released spell: 9
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Lesser Mind Blank
Innate Lvl: 5
Min Gem Value: 480
Caster Lvl of released spell: 9
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Lesser Spell Mantle
Innate Lvl: 5
Min Gem Value: 480
Caster Lvl of released spell: 9
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Light
Innate Lvl: 0
Min Gem Value: 15
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Mage Armor
Innate Lvl: 1
Min Gem Value: 30
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Magic Circle Against Evil (Effect from Magic Circle Against Alignment)
Innate Lvl: 3
Min Gem Value: 120
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Magic Circle Against Good (Effect from Magic Circle Against Alignment)
Innate Lvl: 3
Min Gem Value: 120
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Mestil's Acid Sheath
Innate Lvl: 5
Min Gem Value: 480
Caster Lvl of released spell: 9
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Minor Globe of Invulnerability
Innate Lvl: 4
Min Gem Value: 240
Caster Lvl of released spell: 7
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Neutralize Poison
Innate Lvl: 3
Min Gem Value: 120
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard

Owl's Wisdom
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Polymorph Self: Giant Spider Form (effect from Polymorph Self)
Innate Lvl: 4
Min Gem Value: 240
Caster Lvl of released spell: 7
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Polymorph Self: Pixie Form (effect from Polymorph Self)
Innate Lvl: 4
Min Gem Value: 240
Caster Lvl of released spell: 7
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Polymorph Self: Troll Form (effect from Polymorph Self)
Innate Lvl: 4
Min Gem Value: 240
Caster Lvl of released spell: 7
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Polymorph Self: Umber Hulk Form (effect from Polymorph Self)
Innate Lvl: 4
Min Gem Value: 240
Caster Lvl of released spell: 7
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Polymorph Self: Zombie Form (effect from Polymorph Self)
Innate Lvl: 4
Min Gem Value: 240
Caster Lvl of released spell: 7
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Protection From Elements
Innate Lvl: 3
Min Gem Value: 120
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Protection From Evil (effect from Protection From Alignment Spell)
Innate Lvl: 1
Min Gem Value: 30
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Protection From Good (effect from Protection From Alignment Spell)
Innate Lvl: 1
Min Gem Value: 30
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Remove Blindness/Deafness
Innate Lvl: 3
Min Gem Value: 120
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Remove Curse
Innate Lvl: 3
Min Gem Value: 120
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Remove Disease
Innate Lvl: 3
Min Gem Value: 120
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard

Resistance
Innate Lvl: 0
Min Gem Value: 15
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Resist Elements
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

See Invisibility
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Shadow Ghostly Visage (effect from Greater Shadow Conjuration)
Innate Lvl: 5
Min Gem Value: 480
Caster Lvl of released spell: 9
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Shadow Invisibility (effect from Shadow Conjuration)
Innate Lvl: 4
Min Gem Value: 240
Caster Lvl of released spell: 7
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Shadow Mage Armor (effect from Shadow Conjuration)
Innate Lvl: 4
Min Gem Value: 240
Caster Lvl of released spell: 7
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Shadow Minor Globe of Invulnerability (effect from Greater Shadow Conjuration)
Innate Lvl: 5
Min Gem Value: 480
Caster Lvl of released spell: 9
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard


Shield
Innate Lvl: 1
Min Gem Value: 30
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Stoneskin
Innate Lvl: 4
Min Gem Value: 240
Caster Lvl of released spell: 7
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

True Strike
Innate Lvl: 1
Min Gem Value: 30
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Sorcerer, Wizard

Ultravision
Innate Lvl: 2
Min Gem Value: 60
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

War Cry
Innate Lvl: 4
Min Gem Value: 240
Caster Lvl of released spell: 7
Created by: Bard

Wounding Whispers
Innate Lvl: 3
Min Gem Value: 120
Caster Lvl of released spell: 5
Created by: Bard



Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 27, 2012, 03:46:38 AM
Oh, by the way, not just any gem will do. It must be a gem specially cut to contain the arcane energies involved. These should be for sale at most of the places where you buy scrolls, and possibly in the loot tables, but rare in loot tables. They would have names like "Attunable Gem, Cantrip", "Attunable Gem, First Circle", "Attunable Gem, Second Circle". Et cetera. The gem you cast on must be of the proper level or higher, so if you find an "Attunable Gem, Third Circle" in loot you can turn it into an attuned gem of any of the above mentioned eligible spells of innate level 3 or lower.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: APorg on December 28, 2012, 11:02:03 AM
240gp for Stoneskin (7) is probably erring on the side of cheap.

This is also a hell of a lot of work to code from fresh unless you happen to have developed some modules priorly...

Overall, though, I think this steps a lot on the toes of scroll-scribing. I'd rather see a functional system for scribing scrolls implemented than inventing new things whole-cloth. Not to say there aren't some nice ideas but...
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Mark Johansen on December 28, 2012, 02:00:02 PM
240gp for Stoneskin (7) is probably erring on the side of cheap.

This is also a hell of a lot of work to code from fresh unless you happen to have developed some modules priorly...

Overall, though, I think this steps a lot on the toes of scroll-scribing. I'd rather see a functional system for scribing scrolls implemented than inventing new things whole-cloth. Not to say there aren't some nice ideas but...

Agreed
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: What does the scanner see on December 28, 2012, 03:01:22 PM
I just fell in love with this idea. Kudos.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: herkles on December 28, 2012, 03:14:44 PM
240gp for Stoneskin (7) is probably erring on the side of cheap.

This is also a hell of a lot of work to code from fresh unless you happen to have developed some modules priorly...

Overall, though, I think this steps a lot on the toes of scroll-scribing. I'd rather see a functional system for scribing scrolls implemented than inventing new things whole-cloth. Not to say there aren't some nice ideas but...

I would love a scribe scroll system :)
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Ovidiu_Lacusta on December 28, 2012, 03:19:25 PM
It does what Scribe Scroll should do, this is very creative, but to me it seems driven by an expressed dissatisfaction on what is available to clerics.

Quote
Right now, herbalism is a god-send to clerics.
Actually, almost any PC can become adept at Herbalism, even ones without the most ideal scores, and I think it's a real god send to the people that don't have healing in the first place.
Quote
Due to the ability scores involved, they're naturally good at it, and having a boatload of healing potions that they can actually use on other people means that they can (and do) buff themselves to kingdom come without fear of being short on healing. This is like having extra spells. Meanwhile, mages are naturally good at alchemy, but how does that help them?
I would point out that a large variety of a mages spells are not directly useful to the mage, so it seems reasonable to me that the products of Alchemy are made for use by melee classes, or anyone other than the mage.  (Which, almost any PC can become adept at Alchemy)  Also, having a boatload of potions is a result of player efforts, anyone can do this, and no one is gathering components with more ease than you (except maybe those with higher base movement rate)

Quote
If implemented, this might actually open the door for some spell-swords other than clerics!


Some clerics are monk like, scholarly even, but many priests in Medieval times wore the banners of their deity to war.  This is represented by the clerics available armor and weapon proficiencies, base attack progression, and saves.  That clerics are effective warriors for about as long as I can hold my breath is just a feature of the implementation of the archetype, which as players we can invoke with the variability that we personally desire.  In other words, if you would like to play a cleric spell sword, or if you'd prefer to make a more cloistered concept, then feel free.

Otherwise to me it seems like instead of enjoying the new culture and flavors of this persistant world, there seems to be a roaring personal "crusade" against the cleric class here. (pun intentional)
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 28, 2012, 04:07:43 PM
240gp for Stoneskin (7) is probably erring on the side of cheap.

This is also a hell of a lot of work to code from fresh unless you happen to have developed some modules priorly...

Overall, though, I think this steps a lot on the toes of scroll-scribing. I'd rather see a functional system for scribing scrolls implemented than inventing new things whole-cloth. Not to say there aren't some nice ideas but...

240 is the base price. The price in stores would likely be about 3 times that, unless you have an appraise of 20.

I think we should have scrolls too, but there's two problems with scrolls that make them not really suited to the niche I'm going for. 1) They have class limitations. and 2) they are affected by arcane casting failure while in armour.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 28, 2012, 04:13:47 PM
It does what Scribe Scroll should do, this is very creative, but to me it seems driven by an expressed dissatisfaction on what is available to clerics

No, it's more driven by a dissatisfaction with the lack of viable methods of creating an arcane magic using fighter. Still spell feat is fine, but it also means that you can't ever cast your highest lvl of spells in armour, and the whole "taking your armour off to buff then putting it back on" thing is annoying and breaks the flow of rp. It also does NOT do what scribe scroll does. You can't learn a spell from a gem, and you can't give a scroll to a pure class fighter to use, and you can't cast from a scroll while in armour here.


Otherwise to me it seems like instead of enjoying the new culture and flavors of this persistant world, there seems to be a roaring personal "crusade" against the cleric class here. (pun intentional)

On the contrary, I deeply love the setting here. That's why I came back. But having come back I'm reminded of my dislike of the systems here. The removal of scribe scroll and craft wand horribly limits the "spell-sword" build, and considering the cuts in attack bonus and hit points that such a build requires compared to fighters or clerics, I don't think it's a build type that needs to be short-changed. I don't understand why the dev team decided that removing systems that are both in the OC and canon was a good idea, but my efforts to bring back wand crafting around 18 months ago met with derision. So, I thought up a replacement that creates single-use items, unlike wands, but can be used by anyone and thus does more for inter-pc trade.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Ovidiu_Lacusta on December 28, 2012, 04:31:14 PM
It does what Scribe Scroll should do, this is very creative, but to me it seems driven by an expressed dissatisfaction on what is available to clerics

No, it's more driven by a dissatisfaction with the lack of viable methods of creating an arcane magic using fighter. Still spell feat is fine, but it also means that you can't ever cast your highest lvl of spells in armour, and the whole "taking your armour off to buff then putting it back on" thing is annoying and breaks the flow of rp. It also does NOT do what scribe scroll does. You can't learn a spell from a gem, and you can't give a scroll to a pure class fighter to use, and you can't cast from a scroll while in armour here.


I don't know of any core aspect of the Dungeons and Dragons game that caters to an "arcane magic using fighter."  That sounds like Fable, Dark Souls, or some other game.  It has long been the case in D&D fantasy that the somatic gestures required to call upon Arcane power are limited by wearing armor.  Still Spell is the kindest compromise ever, that never arrived until after AD&D.  You should never be able to cast your highest level spell in armor, being able to cast your second highest in armor is very, very powerful.

Besides, if you don't need your wizard buddy to buff up and do a dungeon - who says these items will not simply be hoarded by non-casters so they can solo more effectively?
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 28, 2012, 04:34:01 PM
Ovidiu, I think the ship's long since sailed in terms of debating the active use, availability and frequency of magic in regards to setting, intended function and context, especially in regards to Ravenloft.. :lol: Best just give up, seeing as how it's an already lost cause.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 28, 2012, 04:41:36 PM
Well, the fighter will have to get them from someone. These are not items that will appear in the loot tables or be in the stores. And maybe people who've been here for years have a wizard or cleric buddy of approximately their own level, but I, for one, have never played on a server where you can reliably find a well-balanced group to go adventuring with, all of whom have the time to do so when I do and feel inclined to do so when I do. NEVER.


Nothing, absolutely nothing, will make soloing safe or a good idea. You solo, then if the spawn is higher than what you expected and you die, who will bring you back? The cry of "oh, this will make people solo" is a ludicrously spurious argument. Those who solo will do so regardless, until they get it through their heads what a bad idea it is. Those who don't aren't going to do so just because they have a single-use gem of stoneskin that they had to pay over 1000 for.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: BalorVale on December 28, 2012, 04:51:24 PM
Interesting. I like the idea and the purpose behind it seems to allow more flow of these very Duskblade esque characters. I only worry that now we'll have sorcerers whom already have many spell slots, using these as their "Buff" spells and then keeping all the others to hold spells like Empowered Fireballs, effectivly giving them too much kill power.

I would love to see those sellable items able to be used for something besides Vistani fodder though.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 28, 2012, 04:55:03 PM
Furthermore, it is my intention that pure fighter types horde a few of these gems so that if they've got a group together of similarly leveled and similarly aligned folks, but none happen to be a spellcaster, they can still go out and do things instead of either A) sitting around in the outskirts or B) having the paladin put aside his differences with the necromancer. Having a single-use gem of stoneskin that he had to pay well over 1200 for is not going to make the fighter think he can always do without someone who'll cast it on him for free. (And I fully expect that, if implemented, the dev team would raise the prices of the attuneable gems, unless the store's markup is more than I think).
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 28, 2012, 05:00:30 PM
Interesting. I like the idea and the purpose behind it seems to allow more flow of these very Duskblade esque characters. I only worry that now we'll have sorcerers whom already have many spell slots, using these as their "Buff" spells and then keeping all the others to hold spells like Empowered Fireballs, effectivly giving them too much kill power.

I would love to see those sellable items able to be used for something besides Vistani fodder though.

A sorc has to be lvl 11 to cast an empowered fireball, a lvl 11 sorc is not going to suddenly experience a huge power boost from this. I don't think having the ability to cast protective spells on a couple more fighters, at a cost of a few thousand gold to herself, is going to make her a Goddess.

Considering the costs involved, she'd be better off keeping a few of these handy for an emergency, and selling some to others, rather than using them all the time. Otherwise she'd be losing money from adventuring unless the coin available from dungeons is much more than any dungeon I've been too, in which case we just adjust the cost of the attuneable gems up.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Crimson Shuriken on December 28, 2012, 05:05:47 PM
Nothing, absolutely nothing, will make soloing safe or a good idea. You solo, then if the spawn is higher than what you expected and you die, who will bring you back? The cry of "oh, this will make people solo" is a ludicrously spurious argument. Those who solo will do so regardless, until they get it through their heads what a bad idea it is. Those who don't aren't going to do so just because they have a single-use gem of stoneskin that they had to pay over 1000 for.
Sorry but I don't think you realize you are voicing your own assumptions and that the reality is different. If I can obtain the attuned gems you have listed here I have multiple non-caster characters that could solo their way to level 16 or higher without need of others and as reslut could solo every craft all the way to mastery as well and would hardly need anyone for anything PvP or PvM with the exception of the highest level dungeons where a cleric casting heal would be needed.  I don't have the soloing mindset but if I can do it then many others can too. Soloing can be done with non casters now actually, but at least its not cost efficient enough to be worth it as a common practice, with each surrogate of actual spellcasters you add to the server you lessen the need for making relationships with the people who can do what you can not and at its very core that is what the anti-soloing designing of the server is all about, fostering the IC and OOC motivation to cultivate relationship that further your own goals.

Personally the attune gem idea crosses over from low magic to high magic feel to me, if not mechanics. I just would imagine it would fit in better with other settings rather than Ravenloft but its not outright impossible to be compatible too.

Level 11 sorcerors need zero help supporting a party to explore with, btw. A wizard perhaps, but not a sorceror.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 28, 2012, 05:20:59 PM
but at least its not cost efficient enough to be worth it as a common practice,

Are you assuming that these gems will be free?

The base price of a level 5 gem is 480 (negotiable by those with a better idea of average economy balance than I), which means that what you PAY at the STORE is 1500 - 2000 (and, again, this could easily go up). After the arcane caster buys it, he or she has to then store the spell in it. Your fighter can't just waltz into the store and buy a gem of ethereal visage. He or she has to buy it from the arcanist, who will likely want to make some kind of profit. So....  I really don't see how this would be a cost effective substitute for having a spellcaster with you. What it would do is make it so that if you want to go do things and can't find a spellcaster who's alignment and level are compatible, you can. Just don't expect to make a profit from it.

And, frankly, on server where you can get to level 20 just from sitting around and chatting, gold is far, far, far more precious than xp.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Lucadia on December 28, 2012, 05:37:36 PM
i dont understand, why would i buy from the store when i could get it directly
from the caster? 

if your.friends with a caster ,get them for free

more items to hoarde, encouraging solo
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: SwanSong on December 28, 2012, 05:56:22 PM
What might work on low level, low magic CoA doesn't necessarily work here. The level of power and ability to accrue wealth is far greater on PoTM. Personally I'd like to see the bard song and animal companion changes implemented here than the gem attuning.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 28, 2012, 06:43:51 PM
i dont understand, why would i buy from the store when i could get it directly
from the caster?  

if your.friends with a caster ,get them for free

more items to hoarde, encouraging solo

The caster has to buy the gem to be attuned. At great cost. If you'd read the whole thread, you'd know that you can't attune just any old aventurine you find in loot. It has to be a gem specially cut to hold the magical energies. So unless your buddy is both very wealthy and very generous, you're not getting them for free. If you're very luck, you're getting them at cost. And your buddy can't churn out a hundred of these a day, either. If your buddy can cast 3 lvl 5 spells per rest cycle, that's how many lvl 5 gems he can produce per rest.

What might work on low level, low magic CoA doesn't necessarily work here. The level of power and ability to accrue wealth is far greater on PoTM. Personally I'd like to see the bard song and animal companion changes implemented here than the gem attuning.

If you mean CoA's Celestial Chorus bard song item, I'd have to vote no on that, despite the fact that I love playing bards of all sorts. On CoA my lvl 7 bard / 4 fighter can cause an entire party, including herself, to regenerate 4 hp per round for ten rounds, 7 times a day. That's just too powerful. She can likely solo just about anywhere on the server, but doesn't because I never find just killing monsters without anyone to talk to fun. If I wanted to do that, I'd play the OC.

I would, though, like to see the power of the bard song spread out a bit more across levels. Right now, it's just "meh" until lvl 11, then suddenly, drastically starts getting more powerful every level after.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Ovidiu_Lacusta on December 28, 2012, 06:49:51 PM
Accurate clerical domains would cut down those trickery/magic combos.  :hide:
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 28, 2012, 06:54:32 PM
Accurate clerical domains would cut down those trickery/magic combos.  :hide:

You mean there's no system in place here to keep clerics from choosing whatever domains they want regardless of deity?  :shock:
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 28, 2012, 07:01:31 PM

Personally the attune gem idea crosses over from low magic to high magic feel to me, if not mechanics. I just would imagine it would fit in better with other settings rather than Ravenloft but its not outright impossible to be compatible too.

I find it hilarious that whenever I point out that we're already knee-deep in High Magic as far as the feel and atmosphere goes, you're amidst those to constantly tell me I'm wrong. >__> Oh, but how the winds turn.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Elfric on December 28, 2012, 07:05:18 PM

Personally the attune gem idea crosses over from low magic to high magic feel to me, if not mechanics. I just would imagine it would fit in better with other settings rather than Ravenloft but its not outright impossible to be compatible too.

I find it hilarious that whenever I point out that we're already knee-deep in High Magic as far as the feel and atmosphere goes, you're amidst those to constantly tell me I'm wrong. >__> Oh, but how the winds turn.

We could use a domain like Lamordia to be a bane to all casters.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: APorg on December 28, 2012, 07:08:22 PM
I dunno, I still see a lot of problems here.

The very stated objective of your goal -- reduce the need of arcane casters in partying groups -- creates conflict with the server's policy of encouraging partying groups to band together. You can argue that the high cost of these will create a disincentive to use items whole soloing or whatever, but that can't negate the fundamental acknowledgement that it will create some increment towards the undesirable. Plus, basing anything on the value of gold is hairy at high levels (see later point).

Then, as stated, there's a conflict with the scroll economy (if I can use the term). Whether this is a good or a bad thing is at best an undecided question. While there's certainly been some voices who'd like to see UMD scrolls nerfed, doing so by effectively opening the floodgates for level 1 - 5 is a questionable approach when most people probably want to keep magic rarer. (Remember that low magic doesn't necessarily mean that magic is weak; just uncommon.) Regardless of how you feel about it, at the very least you must acknowledge that you are raising a big question, and this is being done for an uncertain gain (see first point).

There's also the problem that gold doesn't really represent a significant stumbling block to high levels. Some high level PCs have bank accounts of millions of fang (admittedly usually traders), and even if you're not deliberately going out of your way to save up coins, it's generally not so hard to end up with a few ten thousand spare gold fang along the way by, say, lvl 15.

Which is all to say that, even if you make the effort of making your suggestion entirely economically coherent with pre-existing systems of scrolls, alchemy and herbalism, it still is going to be potentially distorted by people who have more gold reserves than most players can conceive of.

And finally, really the biggest point, is that this is not a modest suggestion in terms of development scope. Who is going to put in the development work to create this system? Are you? If not, then who? I don't mean to needle you with this point, merely be practical; if you can't get it built then it's mostly an exercise in futility to design it. Developer hours are a precious commodity with various other projects in the pipeline, sometimes for months if not years; you might be able to persuade one of them of the value of your project to take on more work load but honestly I suspect your chances will be better if you're willing to step up to the plate yourself. If you can't or won't do that, well... good luck. :p
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Crimson Shuriken on December 28, 2012, 08:15:35 PM

Personally the attune gem idea crosses over from low magic to high magic feel to me, if not mechanics. I just would imagine it would fit in better with other settings rather than Ravenloft but its not outright impossible to be compatible too.

I find it hilarious that whenever I point out that we're already knee-deep in High Magic as far as the feel and atmosphere goes, you're amidst those to constantly tell me I'm wrong. >__> Oh, but how the winds turn.
I don't believe we are already in that feel and atmosphere, is why.  :D
Even having a gem attuning system would not do it for sure but I feel we have already stockpiled the server with surrogate spell caster items in the form of loot that a craft to further equip characters would be overkill really. That's my stance.  Green Monster has ideas, and we have good low STR archery options from a system suggestion he/she brought up before but I sincerely don't think this particular idea is needed or would change anything he/she wishes to change and would devalue spell resources further than I would be comfortable with. Low magic means magic is rarer, but the same ruleset and spell set are used as any other setting and it does in any way modify what character classes player's can or will play (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=21039.0). It changes NPCs and their cultures and it changes available loot options but it has been stated time and again that particular concessions have to be made to meet a Persistant World Set Up.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 28, 2012, 08:27:06 PM
I don't believe we are already in that feel and atmosphere, is why.  :D
Even having a gem attuning system would not do it for sure but I feel we have already stockpiled the server with surrogate spell caster items in the form of loot that a craft to further equip characters would be overkill really. That's my stance.  Green Monster has ideas, and we have good low STR archery options from a system suggestion he/she brought up before but I sincerely don't think this particular idea is needed or would change anything he/she wishes to change and would devalue spell resources further than I would be comfortable with. Low magic means magic is rarer, but the same ruleset and spell set are used as any other setting and it does in any way modify what character classes player's can or will play (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=21039.0). It changes NPCs and their cultures and it changes available loot options but it has been stated time and again that particular concessions have to be made to meet a Persistant World Set Up.

You mean like how mass-produced copies of Beowulf's sword Hrunting, the legendary celtic sword Caladbolg (which even has an entry in the 3rd Ed. book Weapons of Legacy), Cu'Chulain's spear, Gae Bolg and more are casually available to anyone and everyone? Or that I've seen level 4's running around with Angel Arms? Or that scrolls are available in abundance, along with magical varnishes, and other enchanted wares? How 'bout the Blade of the Cattle, which just about anyone can get their hands on? Or the numerous other enchanted goods that're overflowing out of every pocket and corner on the server? How 'bout the fact that you can find up to 4-5 Monkey Barrels down in the ML crypts, despite them clearly being some pretty high-grade 'bad juju' items? Or a gazillion-and-three Necklaces of Kali? :P That all sound 'rare' to you? I honestly cannot concede to the idea that we're a Low Magic setting, still, when we have weapons that are in the same tier as freakin' Excalibur as casual, standard loot drops - in a setting that states that loot is meant to be minor-to-none. And if the response to that is 'then how can players kill monsters', then the solution remains the same as I've always said: stop making the monsters overkill. The setting is one where you're pretty much meant to be carrying around standard grade equipment of variable quality (-1 to +1 to damage, at average), fighting creatures that can be felled by such weapons, not everyone swinging around blades wreathed in lightning and energy.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Crimson Shuriken on December 28, 2012, 08:38:04 PM
Player characters.  Which neither define or are modified mechanically, by low magic settings.
Count how many known Wizards you know in the module that are not PCs, and then you begin to realize your view is skewed because instead of the one Wizard in your party at the table we have a cast of hundreds of player characters.

Btw, I have never had my immersion broken by items that share names with famous setting lores or legends from real life. Seems you have though, but I did not make those items and I am sure whoever did make them thought they were befitting and it was probably DM Blue or DM EO since they are often the ones who incorporate new items and they both have a very strong grasp of the Ravenloft setting so how about we trust their judgement on that ;) The inability to easily explain why there would be multiple copies of a particular kind of magic sword is one of those aforementioned "concessions that have to be made to accommodate a Persistant World Set Up" unless you are cool with DMs only handing out unique magic swords to whoever they please instead of them being something each player had the ability to go and get for their self. I would not particularly prefer that over having the hard-to-explain copies that perhaps some other character mine knows having one of the same.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 28, 2012, 08:45:05 PM
unless you are cool with DMs only handing out unique magic swords to whoever they please instead of them being something each player had the ability to go and get for their self. I would not particularly prefer that over having the hard-to-explain copies that perhaps some other character mine knows having one of the same.

As a matter of fact? Yes, yes, I am. And I say this as a player who is less than likely to get a unique weapon because it's pretty clear that certain DMs don't particularly like me, and the rest just don't know or have an interest in me. I say this as a player who's been ousted from a DM event that the DM initiated TO me, because the DM wanted to give it to someone they liked better. On this server. I say this as a player who is the least likely to benefit from this, simply due to politics, and why do I say this? Because it makes sense - even as a PW server, if not especially as a PW server. Persistent World doesn't mean 'concede to everyone' either. And on Ravenloft being the guy with the unique weapon means you earned your merits, rather than 'oh hey, after farming this place fifty times I stumbled on it'.

Also, this isn't a case of 'whoops, there's more than one magic sword'. This is a case of 'hey, you know that one of a kind, ultra-legendary weapon that spans history itself and everyone knows about? I gots three!' Even then, if you wanted magic swords of this type, there's a simple solution to that: make them a particular brand of magic sword. You know what a magic sword can be? Something as simple as a +1 enhancement to it, and you know what that sword is called? 'An enchanted sword'. It has no legacy attached to it, it's just a particularly magical blade. You know what a magic sword that does 1d4 fire damage is because it has an enchantment placed on the ruby in its pommel? 'An enchanted fire-ruby sword'. No legacy, but its functionality is there.

If your point is that 'oh hey, who cares, it's just a name', let's put that to the test and I'll go ahead and put in an item request for scimitars with the same names as Drizzt's swords, Twinkle and Icingdeath. If it's 'just names', then it shouldn't be a problem in the slightest, right?
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: dutchy on December 28, 2012, 08:51:00 PM
unless you are cool with DMs only handing out unique magic swords to whoever they please instead of them being something each player had the ability to go and get for their self. I would not particularly prefer that over having the hard-to-explain copies that perhaps some other character mine knows having one of the same.

As a matter of fact? Yes, yes, I am. And I say this as a player who is less than likely to get a unique weapon because it's pretty clear that certain DMs don't particularly like me, and the rest just don't know or have an interest in me. I say this as a player who's been ousted from a DM event that the DM initiated TO me, because the DM wanted to give it to someone they liked better. On this server. I say this as a player who is the least likely to benefit from this, simply due to politics, and why do I say this? Because it makes sense - even as a PW server, if not especially as a PW server. Persistent World doesn't mean 'concede to everyone' either. And on Ravenloft being the guy with the unique weapon means you earned your merits, rather than 'oh hey, after farming this place fifty times I stumbled on it'.

Also, this isn't a case of 'whoops, there's more than one magic sword'. This is a case of 'hey, you know that one of a kind, ultra-legendary weapon that spans history itself and everyone knows about? I gots three!' Even then, if you wanted magic swords of this type, there's a simple solution to that: make them a particular brand of magic sword. You know what a magic sword can be? Something as simple as a +1 enhancement to it, and you know what that sword is called? 'An enchanted sword'. It has no legacy attached to it, it's just a particularly magical blade. You know what a magic sword that does 1d4 fire damage is because it has an enchantment placed on the ruby in its pommel? 'An enchanted fire-ruby sword'. No legacy, but its functionality is there.


am not trying to be a dick just asking ok?

if after 2 years a dm still hasnt given you any of such gear, then would you then make a topic or complain to your buddies in tells that dm's are favoring others?

cause one problem leads to another.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 28, 2012, 08:52:59 PM
You do realize that such talks go on even now. And that any prior occasion of mentioning DMs playing favourites is immediately hushed up and warnings are given to the users that post such threads, right?

I don't even advocate the Attune Gem thing - I just find it questionable that the people who defend the server from the points I make, are making similar, to the same, points as I do, when it suits them.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Elfric on December 28, 2012, 08:53:02 PM
Low magic setting... The enchanting craft being available to players that meet a certain set of skills, yet still is technically public  argues against it.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Crimson Shuriken on December 28, 2012, 09:07:50 PM
I'll go ahead and put in an item request for scimitars with the same names as Drizzt's swords, Twinkle and Icingdeath. If it's 'just names', then it shouldn't be a problem in the slightest, right?
Actually, good example, and I personally would not mind it. As long as it would be a +1 scimitar with d4 cold damage or something and not the +2 defender with dispel fire on hit properties etc.  The class of the item matters a whole hell of a lot more for the sake of the server than the name, even you would agree. There is a stigma against Drizzt Do'Urden that would be a bigger roadblack than those weapons notoriety though. But that has become well off Green Monster's idea.

As a closing thought to you Tom, nothing you say is wrong man but its just subjective thoughts presented as absolutes.  If you would like to make a horror persistent world where the level cap was 10, the monsters all sucked, and the loot all sucked and the only named weaponry were dm handouts and call it Ravenloft that is a perfectly legit thing to desire, but PotM is not that server. Those things don't define Ravenloft to me, they seem to have a huge imprint on your impression of the setting though its very evident. PotM has been the collective creative hobby of many many developers and scripters and writers over 7 years and it includes people that know the setting extremely well and love the setting. They have implemented their vision of the setting while make their acceptable level of concessions for a PW set up.  It may not suit your taste, and that's fine and no one would hold that against you but being so adamantly against fundamental design choices of this server's backroom staff does lead one to wonder what the server holds as an allure that you would be so enthusiastic about pointing out its shortcomings in your opinions over and over expecting different results. Sometimes in life we have to recognize our voice is the minority voice not shared as enthusiasticly by others as we like and move on.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: dutchy on December 28, 2012, 09:10:03 PM
You do realize that such talks go on even now. And that any prior occasion of mentioning DMs playing favourites is immediately hushed up and warnings are given to the users that post such threads, right?

I don't even advocate the Attune Gem thing - I just find it questionable that the people who defend the server from the points I make, are making similar, to the same, points as I do, when it suits them.

sorry but you are not giving a clear awnser in my eyes, its beating around the bush.

if YOU played here 2 years in a row (il leave it to you if you do it with 1 char or several)   and you did not get an item such as that and YOU think you did your best, thus you honestly believe you did good roleplay had fun interactions etc.
and you would would see someone pass by with a sword of awesomeniss not just any sword of awesomeniss but the one made out of pure awesomeness.
would you not go...wtf    and post that things should be difrant or altered?    
cause many would and and thats not really something to be ashamed off cause we all want to be equal. (we cant all BE equal but thats a difrant story)  

Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 28, 2012, 09:15:24 PM
[I did read this, just snipping it down to signify that I'm responding to it specifically]

I'm.. honestly not trying to present this stuff as absolutes. Hard to believe, I'm sure.. I'm just.. so exhausted by what feels like an uphill battle, in-game, and on the forums. Ironically enough, in an answer to dutchy's remark, I have been playing here for almost two years in a row (three or so years off-and-on from the beginning), and I actually do feel this way even now, just less in regards to loot - because items are just items to me - but rather in terms of roleplay and atmosphere. It feels like, more or less, every turn is met by people telling you 'no, shut up and sit down, things are awesome the way that they are, nothing is wrong.' Even minor ideas or suggestions get this treatment, and it starts to feel as though the only way to get a word in edgewise is to practically yell it in peoples' faces, y'know what I mean..? It's tiring. So for whatever it's worth, I apologize if, or probably more accurately that, my approach is abrasive.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: dutchy on December 28, 2012, 09:40:11 PM
you got a point there tom boy.

but if we indeed lost all the magic items  just not the hecots cutter and all other stuff then i am pretty sure your char is butt naked as would everybody else that has a char older then 1 week (and even thats a large stretch).

so that means everything left is a normal cloack a normal armor and a normal weapon (that or crafted items)    your additions will be dm given and or by a wiz as a temporary buff.

thats a low magic server for the PLAYERS  side of life   not the setting, as crimson said   wich i agreed with the setting itself is low magic, its just us idjits that walk around with such gear cause we asked for it and kept asking and it kept beeing implemented and it got altered it got balanced monsters alterd and balanced so we are still on par its just from an odd angle the same magic or more magic depends on the angle.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: SwanSong on December 28, 2012, 11:15:46 PM
Just to point out, the legendary weapons are probably only included because they feature in the Castlevania series of which a great many loot items are taken from. Just hit a Castlevania wiki equipment list to prove that. As for attuned gems, a recentish addition to CoA, I recall factions stockpiling them until the showdown that usually occurs between each other (since CoA long departed from being an excellent FR server and into the realms of PW Action where you'd be hard pressed to keep up with events after even a week's absence) and having a load of nobody hanger on footsoldiers of any class being able to throw missle storms at you with practically no effort.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: dutchy on December 29, 2012, 08:24:26 AM
also some items are sorta like easter eggs   with the names and properties.

sorta like a hommage to the other games.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Fen'lo Taaran on December 29, 2012, 09:27:57 AM
i dont understand, why would i buy from the store when i could get it directly
from the caster?  

if your.friends with a caster ,get them for free

more items to hoarde, encouraging solo

The caster has to buy the gem to be attuned. At great cost. If you'd read the whole thread, you'd know that you can't attune just any old aventurine you find in loot. It has to be a gem specially cut to hold the magical energies. So unless your buddy is both very wealthy and very generous, you're not getting them for free. If you're very luck, you're getting them at cost. And your buddy can't churn out a hundred of these a day, either. If your buddy can cast 3 lvl 5 spells per rest cycle, that's how many lvl 5 gems he can produce per rest.

What might work on low level, low magic CoA doesn't necessarily work here. The level of power and ability to accrue wealth is far greater on PoTM. Personally I'd like to see the bard song and animal companion changes implemented here than the gem attuning.

If you mean CoA's Celestial Chorus bard song item, I'd have to vote no on that, despite the fact that I love playing bards of all sorts. On CoA my lvl 7 bard / 4 fighter can cause an entire party, including herself, to regenerate 4 hp per round for ten rounds, 7 times a day. That's just too powerful. She can likely solo just about anywhere on the server, but doesn't because I never find just killing monsters without anyone to talk to fun. If I wanted to do that, I'd play the OC.

I would, though, like to see the power of the bard song spread out a bit more across levels. Right now, it's just "meh" until lvl 11, then suddenly, drastically starts getting more powerful every level after.

Ever heard of resting in a safe room? You can just cycle through spells and rest.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: dark_majico on December 29, 2012, 02:38:30 PM
For what its worth tom I also feel like we have gone from a low magic setting into a high magic setting. Every player trader has a handfuls of swords with 1d4 fire damage, or cold damage attached, and they sell them openly without anyone batting an eye lid, zombie flesh rings, zombie skin armor, the Vistani camp always seems to have 6-8 pages of magical amulets and other assorted item types every day when I log in, magical Varnishes are giving us mage-in-a-bottle characters, your right these Legacy items are every where and you don't even need to quest to get them.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: dutchy on December 29, 2012, 02:54:58 PM
Well there is a way out of that but Uh would be messy.

Guard Factions. They do it with flintlocks and drugs but I do not see how they know its vraja 
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 29, 2012, 06:23:21 PM
This is just not a low magic server. CoA is a low magic server, where my lvl 11 took 2 years to get to lvl 11 and has as her best piece of equipment a longsword with +1 attack and +2 sonic damage (and that was a reward from a DM, not loot). Here, my two week old character is lvl 9 and has full plate +1, boots of +1 ac, and a katana with +1 enhancement and +1d6 dmg vs evil. All without even trying hard. At all. And without DM gifts. The "low magic" argument is just silly.

Basically, the other arguments I'm seeing here boil down to "Waaahh......  people might go out and have FUN when they can't find a caster to bring along". Gee....  people having fun while playing a game. How terrible.  :roll:  If people who want to go out and slay some monsters can't do it because they can't find a caster to bring along, they log out. If people have to pay a great deal of coin for attuned gems, they're still going to prefer to have a caster. Simple economics.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 29, 2012, 06:44:21 PM
Preachin' to the jaded choir there, Green. >_>
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 29, 2012, 07:30:07 PM
I know you get what I'm saying, Tom.

I'd really rather see that group of three good-aligned warriors and a rogue go out and do something because they have some attuned gems stock-piled than just sit around in the Morninglord Temple because the only mage around was bragging on what a great necromancer he is (true story). Sure, they're not going to make nearly as much profit because the gems cost them money, but hey, at least they don't get bored and log out (which is what happened). As long as they can make a better profit by having a caster in the group, they will, when possible.

Meanwhile, those people with the soloist mentality will continue to do as they've always done: create clerics with war domain (regardless of deity) and go out and solo. Those people don't need the gems, and, frankly, they're not hurting anyone but themselves.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: APorg on December 29, 2012, 07:35:18 PM
The "low magic" argument is just silly.

Whatever your thoughts on the statement that the server is low magic aside, if your suggestion is going to make the situation worse, that is a relevant observation.

Quote
"Waaahh......  people might go out and have FUN when they can't find a caster to bring along".

You know you're debating from a place of strength when you paraphrase your opponents as cry-babies :P
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 29, 2012, 07:38:15 PM
The "low magic" argument is just silly.

Whatever your thoughts on the statement that the server is low magic aside, if your suggestion is going to make the situation worse, that is a relevant observation.

Quote
"Waaahh......  people might go out and have FUN when they can't find a caster to bring along".

You know you're debating from a place of strength when you paraphrase your opponents as cry-babies :P

As opposed to the other side of the table consistently mocking, or calling people cry-babies, whiners and telling them to quit bitching whenever these matters come up in other threads - something that even some DMs are guilty of. My finely tuned kettle nostril smells black on you, pot.*

*Kindly note that I point out that I am the kettle in this, meaning I am of subsequent guilt in turn.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: APorg on December 29, 2012, 07:41:30 PM
As opposed to the other side of the table consistently mocking, or calling people cry-babies, whiners and telling them to quit bitching whenever these matters come up in other threads - something that even some DMs are guilty of. My finely tuned kettle nostril smells black on you, pot.

Oddly, I've tried to make precise, to-the-point arguments and been largely ignored up until now.

Ho-hum.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 29, 2012, 07:42:40 PM
Perhaps the same could be said of all forum debaters. But enough words, have at you!
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 29, 2012, 07:51:17 PM
The "low magic" argument is just silly.

Whatever your thoughts on the statement that the server is low magic aside, if your suggestion is going to make the situation worse, that is a relevant observation.

A lvl 5 wizard would be able to create, at a cost to him/her self of a few thousand gold, 3 single-use haste gems per rest cycle. I don't see how that would make this into "ohmagerd, I'm SO l337!" And I could see that the number of gems creatable in a day could be limited to one. It is, after all, a lesser form of enchanting.


Quote
"Waaahh......  people might go out and have FUN when they can't find a caster to bring along".

You know you're debating from a place of strength when you paraphrase your opponents as cry-babies :P

All you're doing is repeating the same argument over and over. I refute it, and you ignore what I've said and merely repeat yourself again. Now, I will say it one last time: The ones who are the repeat offender soloists are the high lvl clerics, and there's no way to stop them from doing it. So, instead, let groups  of non-casters have an alternative to sitting around twiddling their thumbs and then logging out when the casters are out soloing. If they have to pay for the gems, then simple economics dictates that they'll prefer to have a caster. If they can't find one, then at least they can still go have FUN.

You keep arguing that non-casters will suddenly start soloing if these gems are available. I say it's not going to happen. Because why? Because those players who have the soloing mentality are not making non-casters.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Lucadia on December 29, 2012, 08:21:08 PM
blaming only clerics, dont forget mages and druids are casters too.
oh the days i had fun as a druid and often only caster in a large melee group.
try asking them along.
theres plenty of consumables now that would not stop a non caster group
also.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: APorg on December 29, 2012, 08:22:39 PM
With all due respect, that's not a refutation, that's merely your opinion -- and one that does not stack up with my experience.

It's perfectly possible to solo as a non-caster here.

You get various consumables for buffs (e.g. Firepipes for Protection for Evil). Varnishes for armor buffs and weapon buffs (getting +3 for both is more than feasible). Potions for almost everything else.

I've seen Monks solo everything bar Perfidius.

You've said you have a level 9 character here -- do you have any higher level PCs? Do you understand how the high level economy works? Have you any experience of it?
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: APorg on December 29, 2012, 08:27:50 PM
And again, quite simply, the answer to all those poor non-casters who can't solo is not "invent a whole new Craft wholecloth", it's "learn to make buddies with casters". The idea that there's only solo-ing casters out there is patently false, too, and if you're going to rely on those SAME casters to be creating these gems -- then why not just invite them to go out dungeoning instead? I made a Wizard who specialised in buffing parties and I can tell you I'd rather be invited dungeoning than spending my time crafting crap.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Honoun on December 29, 2012, 08:53:16 PM
Personally I find the whole crafting thing exceedingly dull, its not why I play this game. If it were up to me I'd be scrapping the whole system and just have vendors sell stuff we need. Its simpler and leaves more time for what really matters, actually playing an adventurer no less ;)

If these attune gems were added I'd never use them on my none casters cause they are just way over priced and frankly I'd rather have a caster with me anyway to get those buffs for free.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 29, 2012, 09:00:49 PM
If these attune gems were added I'd never use them on my none casters cause they are just way over priced and frankly I'd rather have a caster with me anyway to get those buffs for free.  :mrgreen:

Exactly. You'd rather have a caster along to get them for free. Thank you. That's a point I've been trying to make but no one's listening. But when you can't find a caster with whom it'd be IC to work, wouldn't it be nice if you had options other than sitting around twiddling your thumbs?

This wouldn't make people stop soloing. It wouldn't make people who don't solo start doing it. People will do what they want regardless. What it would do is A) make the rest of us suffer less when we can't find a buff machine and B) open the door for the arcane swordsman, a build that's not really very viable here due to the removal of craft wands and scrolls being made to impose armour penalties.

And aprogressivist, as to those loot table consumables, whence do they come? Why, mostly from the soloists who go out and get them. So....  we reward the soloist for leaving us sitting around in the outskirts by putting more coin in his or her pocket.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 29, 2012, 09:10:47 PM
I wonder if I should point out the fact that a Low Magic server, and setting, by its very design, is one wherein it should be just as functional to play without a caster of any sort, as with one. So basing it on that.. yeah, what's it say when this server is clearly not one of those, going off of that criteria, and then having every single excuse against change be 'if you're having a tough time, get a caster! You can't survive without a caster! You'd be stupid to go without a caster!'

Ya know, it's not exactly functional to force every situation to be one wherein you need to buff yourself out the eyeballs just to stand a chance against an enemy of LOWER level than you. And thus in turn to force you to rely on one singular player who has the means to buff you out the eyeballs, as a result.

Mind you.. if the server were to use, say, a Quality-based system, then a lot of this stuff would go right out the window. Basically that you would be able to succeed crafting with far better chances, rather than the 'hahaha, fuck you' rates that crafting checks have now, but the results would thus be based on your crafting level, instead, and even failure would still provide a result, rather than a waste of money.

Elaborating a bit further: Let's say you're a Level One smith.. you make a sword. You succeed! Its quality is 'Below Average' to 'Poor'. 'Cause you're level one, duh. However, you gained experience for it, and you have a shoddy sword you could technically still sell to a low-level. Make it to level two, it's Average to Below Average. You fail at level two, and you create a Below Average to Poor instead. In turn, this would create a stable item scale where weapons and armor would be effective based on their quality, not on enchantments. You end up with weapons that have -1 and +1 to their base physical damages, rather than slinging around lightning blades left and right.

Heck, take it a step further, let's apply enchanting to the mix. Let's say you have a specially carved Fire Agate, like the ones we're talking about for the Attune Gem situation. Imbue it with a fire spell. You get a craftsman to embed it into a sword. That sword is now High Quality, and has 'Fire Agate' as part of the Material marker. Weapon has anywhere from 1 to 1d4 Fire damage, depending on the spell used and the craftmanship level.

Better still, you wouldn't be seeing those flat numbers. We have scripts that can hide stuff like player levels and other such things. Pretty sure it can be scripted so you can't see the weapon statistics such as that 1d4 Fire Damage and the +1 Slashing Damage. All you would see is the quality of the weapon, and the Material: Fire Agate marker, meaning players would also have to roleplay inspecting items, talking to merchants, getting second opinions and more - 'stead of just going 'THAT ONE *POINT*'. Heck, consider further how it'd balance out the economy to have this kind of thing.. rather than weapons being sold for 5000+ gold a piece, while the garda get freaking 3-5 gold per daily pay, you could reduce the cost of templates, for one thing, players would be more inclined to craft because they wouldn't be getting buttfucked by the crafting system's 'You must roll 15 with a -5' on recipes they have already succeeded on in the past.. farming would decrease too.

So that's: Fairer prices on templates, less anti-player crafting requirements, prices drop, balanced gear, enemy levels subside too, necessity to rely on casters goes down as well. All from the simple act of making the crafting more fair and accessible, and utilizing item 'Quality' over enchantments.

EDIT: Thought of another thing to add to this. If the player's Lore or Spellcraft is high enough, they could use the Examine feature on the item in question, and thus get a message like 'You sense magic in this blade.' or 'This weapon feels warm to the touch.' Or if it's a Unique weapon like me and Green have made mentions of, a Lore check could give you a historical insight into the nature or powers of the weapon.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Lucadia on December 29, 2012, 09:11:21 PM
actully you dont seem to be reading, since its been pointed out numerous times
there is enough items in game that.allow non casters to be effective to go out.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Crimson Shuriken on December 29, 2012, 09:27:10 PM
You keep arguing that non-casters will suddenly start soloing if these gems are available. I say it's not going to happen. Because why? Because those players who have the soloing mentality are not making non-casters.
I tend to think you are demonstrating a veiled soloing mentality by not recruiting the pieces you need that may be lacking, via IC.
Instead you look for mechanical changes to enable you to have more success without the need for various skillsets, in this case its mages.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 29, 2012, 09:32:10 PM
actully you dont seem to be reading, since its been pointed out numerous times
there is enough items in game that.allow non casters to be effective to go out.

In loot tables. Which you have to either A) go out and get, requiring a caster, or B) buy from those who do go out and get, and put coin into their pockets. Meanwhile, loot tables are random meaning you're not certain to actually find what you're looking for.

So, yes, let's all make friends with the casters, shall we? Let's base our character's friendships solely on what other characters can do for our own. Let the Paladin's best chum be the necromancer who can Stoneskin him. That's good rp, is it?

See.... no one is ever going to say "I'd much rather use up these gems I paid a fortune for instead of having a caster who can buff me for free". But they might say "It's more in-character for my NG ranger to use up some of these gems instead of accept the blessings of the Priest of Bane over there", and I think that'd be a good thing.

So...  which is it? Is PotM a role-play based server where alignment and affiliations MATTER when choosing who to trust to work with? Or is it just "Team Power-Gamer" where we all buddy up to whomever can buff us out the wazoo regardless of religion and alignment?
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Knas on December 30, 2012, 01:12:58 AM
Perhaps the same could be said of all forum debaters. But enough words, have at you!

 :bat: :whip:

In loot tables. Which you have to either A) go out and get, requiring a caster, or B) buy from those who do go out and get, and put coin into their pockets. Meanwhile, loot tables are random meaning you're not certain to actually find what you're looking for.

The statement that soloing is exclusive to casters is just false, I know of several people who clear semi high level areas alone without being a mage or cleric. Sure a part of the profit is lost to potions and useables but that's the way it's always been when going without a party in DnD. Casters aren't exclusively the only ones able to collect magic loot, and it's really up to you if you want to buy it from a player merchant or if you wish to progress at a lower pace but 'earn' your loot yourself. Sure the Potm item trading is highly based in players trading with players, but implying that a wizard is at the root of any loot brought to the market just ain't true.

Also forgive me if I'm blunt but the system you're suggesting just sounds like a cheap way to get around investing time in a craft. I really don't see why we should add a profitable craft OUTSIDE the crafting system, which would generate money for the craftsman without having to put any effort in it. To brew potions / craft armor etc you don't just put points in a skill or pick a feat on this server. You have to invest time in it to actually progress. I don't think this system would be any different from fighters suddenly being able to craft a fullplate +1 at level 10 by just spending x gold.

In the end though I can see what you're getting at and trying to make the server more fun for people is a noble effort, but at the same time the voices of this thread and what I see in game isn't convincing me that in reality the majority of people playing on Potm get bored and log off if they can't find a wizard to powergame with.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 30, 2012, 01:30:23 AM
Perhaps the same could be said of all forum debaters. But enough words, have at you!

 :bat: :whip:

 :dracula:

..At any rate! I still think the idea I suggested has some contemplative merits - it'd be somethin' that'd take a while to implement.. but given that it was the shift to a player economy that resulted in a great deal of the borked'ness we're in now, balancing out the stuff that goes into said player economy would be a great way to enforce server balance. As it currently stands, the player-based economy is a cause for a lot of the troubles, between farming, solo'ing and the 'inflation', as I call it (items that once cost maybe 500-1000 gold now going for as high as 6000+).

I could even see the Masterwork issue being worked around.. as a werewolf should only have a +1/5 Damage Reduction, meaning it only absorbs 5 points of damage, and +1AB screws that up (since it should be enhancement, or silver). Solution there: +2/5 Damage Reduction. Damage is still absorbed. Silver weapons don't get +1AB (unless it's a Masterwork Silver Weapon), but it gets a +5 Damage Bonus (Base Damage Type) vs Shapechangers. Thus its DR swallows up the extra damage, and instead does normal damage. BAM! Problem solved.

I'm focusing on this specific weapon type situation since one of the explanations for making werewolves so ungodly powerful was that +1AB glitched a bypass of the DR feature, and was in turn the sort of hole-digging procession of increasing everything in power bit by bit in order to complement the consistently increasing levels of power.

Basically, due to the upping of monsters, and thus upping of gear to match the monsters, ad infinitum, creates the whole 'power creep (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=Bxszx60ZwGw)' effect. So one of the best solutions might be to tone it back down a bit, and then try a new approach to wares in order to maintain a balance between mobs vs loots.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Crimson Shuriken on December 30, 2012, 02:34:28 AM
I wonder if I should point out the fact that a Low Magic server, and setting, by its very design, is one wherein it should be just as functional to play without a caster of any sort, as with one. So basing it on that.. yeah, what's it say when this server is clearly not one of those, going off of that criteria, and then having every single excuse against change be 'if you're having a tough time, get a caster! You can't survive without a caster! You'd be stupid to go without a caster!'

No. That's not true. If you play in a low magic setting a ghost still requires +1 or greater or spells to harm it, mummies rot still requires remove curse or even higher clerical magic, and fear auras obliterate the unshielded mind. In other words the rules don't change. I posted the explanation of the criteria used by WotC in defining low magic setting in both the Ravenloft sources and D&D sources and linked it earlier in this thread. Its that and nothing more, it has to do with how common knowledge and practiced magic is in the setting's whole population.  Ravenloft is low magic because there are not magic powered machines or kitchens being cleaned by animated brooms, no reknown Wizardry or Bardic schools and no hugely influential and wealthy and widely regarded religions save one. The churches are in decay and faith is wavering, but the magic spells granted by the religions in Ravenloft are one and the same as any D&D setting. Jim and Sally inkeeper lose their lunch if they see a mage fight break out in Vallaki's Blue Water Inn but not in a Waterdeep or Sigil tavern. You get what I am trying to say? PotM is low magic, but to truly keep it low magic would require severe drawback and restriction of gameplay to some classes so items in loot or magic items exist (+1 only mind you, rare +2s). They exist in Ravenloft too, just rarer than on PotM.  Its a good happy medium, nothing is perfect, but if you are going to complain about high magic understand the term you're campaigning against or the debates are coming from differing definitions.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 30, 2012, 02:59:42 AM
Your +1 argument is nullified by these Ravenloft books I've got in front of me pointing out that Holy Water is a vulnerability to be used against ghosts, alongside of specific allergens and holy symbols. In other words, you could simply make it so that 'using' a holy symbol on a weapon gives it the necessary benefits required to fight ghosts, or you can splash holy water on it (which is already an option). Voila! +1 weaponry dilemma vs ghosts is outta the picture.

Also, I should probably point out that the reason Ravenloft is a fun setting is because of the restrictions. It's the same reason someone joins a Zombie Survival server on NWN, despite the level cap being 2, and weapons being so scarce that you'll settle for the leg from a table to use as a club, just to survive. I wouldn't complain about how restrictive it is being a member of the Imperium of Man in WH40K because I can't be bestest friends with xeno scum. You play by the restrictions established by the setting. It's why we have individual settings in the first place. Otherwise we might as well treat Krynn as being identical to Eberron.

I dunno, maybe I'm just too avid of a roleplayer, and am letting my fondness of the setting get the best of me. Who knows.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Soren / Zarathustra217 on December 30, 2012, 06:46:37 AM
I wonder if I should point out the fact that a Low Magic server, and setting, by its very design, is one wherein it should be just as functional to play without a caster of any sort, as with one. So basing it on that.. yeah, what's it say when this server is clearly not one of those, going off of that criteria, and then having every single excuse against change be 'if you're having a tough time, get a caster! You can't survive without a caster! You'd be stupid to go without a caster!'


Actually, I think it's much rather so that in a low magic setting, casters are much more powerful - and important.

That is why we wanted the crafting system to be able to produce many of the effects you'd otherwise only get from casters. The only alternative to attain a balance would be to nerf casters which is equally unpopular (and which we already have done to some extend already.)
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Soren / Zarathustra217 on December 30, 2012, 06:58:33 AM
As to the idea from the OP, it's not bad per se. I just prefer tying things into the crafting systems more so that it relies more on collaboration and less on just gold and level. This also make things in terms of progression less linear (not all tied up to the same dungeoning and looting).

Not to mention, it would just give the existing caster more power more or less freely.

An interesting way to overcome this - and perhaps facilitate a wider economy was if we could somehow meaningfully make an ingredient system. That way, casters would fund their spellcasting through selling attuned "gems" (or whichever we settle on) and there would be a meaningful interdependency. But a full blown ingredient system would be time consuming to implement and easily be a lot of extra (possibly frustrating) management for the casterss.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: dutchy on December 30, 2012, 08:52:12 AM
actully you dont seem to be reading, since its been pointed out numerous times
there is enough items in game that.allow non casters to be effective to go out.

In loot tables. Which you have to either A) go out and get, requiring a caster, or B) buy from those who do go out and get, and put coin into their pockets. Meanwhile, loot tables are random meaning you're not certain to actually find what you're looking for.

So, yes, let's all make friends with the casters, shall we? Let's base our character's friendships solely on what other characters can do for our own. Let the Paladin's best chum be the necromancer who can Stoneskin him. That's good rp, is it?

See.... no one is ever going to say "I'd much rather use up these gems I paid a fortune for instead of having a caster who can buff me for free". But they might say "It's more in-character for my NG ranger to use up some of these gems instead of accept the blessings of the Priest of Bane over there", and I think that'd be a good thing.

So...  which is it? Is PotM a role-play based server where alignment and affiliations MATTER when choosing who to trust to work with? Or is it just "Team Power-Gamer" where we all buddy up to whomever can buff us out the wazoo regardless of religion and alignment?

well isnt that with everything?

if you want milk you have to buy it irl no?
yet the farmer gets it straight from his herd.

so beeing friends with a farmer is usefull as the milk is either cheaper or free.

we could go the same for people who have friends who are handy with computers or cars or i dunno.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 30, 2012, 12:47:46 PM
I wonder if I should point out the fact that a Low Magic server, and setting, by its very design, is one wherein it should be just as functional to play without a caster of any sort, as with one. So basing it on that.. yeah, what's it say when this server is clearly not one of those, going off of that criteria, and then having every single excuse against change be 'if you're having a tough time, get a caster! You can't survive without a caster! You'd be stupid to go without a caster!'


Actually, I think it's much rather so that in a low magic setting, casters are much more powerful - and important.

That is why we wanted the crafting system to be able to produce many of the effects you'd otherwise only get from casters. The only alternative to attain a balance would be to nerf casters which is equally unpopular (and which we already have done to some extend already.)

Would employing 'corruption' checks on casters (primarily Wizards/Sorcerers) be something that constitutes a nerf? I'll need to recheck my books to confirm, but I do recall there being mention that spellcasting is a risky business in Ravenloft. On the flipside of this, encouraging players of clerics to behave more in-line with the dogmas and doctrines of their faith would also be applicable. I've seen a few clerics who are actually rather good roleplayers, but are forced to ignore a lot of their characters' IC personalities, views and policies, just because the only alternative for them is to get shafted on partying up with people. That's perhaps not so much a problem on the clerics' behalf, as they are really only doing what they have to in order to get by on the server, but perhaps some manner of middle-ground could be achieved..

As Nemien said, it's a matter of 'oh I'm a paladin, I guess I'll go get help from the cleric of Bane over there'. Just the same as 'I'm a priest of Tyr - now how 'bout I turn a blind eye to that lynch mob I'm seein' here because all the other players will mob me instead,' and so on. I don't pretend that this is stuff that can just be done with the stroke of a wand, at any rate - these kinds of things take time and effort; time and effort that the staff mightn't have on hand as it were (and again, if I knew first thing about scripting, I'd of thrown my hat in ages ago..), but at the very least acknowledging its potential does wonders for discussing what might come from these ideas.

No idea is flawless, or perfect - but when it's clear some time has been taken in formulating its premise, the least one can do is give it a hypothesis.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Soren / Zarathustra217 on December 30, 2012, 01:03:20 PM
I am myself a bit lukewarm toward implementing auto-corruption as it risk making it mechanical and bland. No script would be able to take into account all the subtleties of the roleplay that make it vivid and interesting.

In terms of ingredients we could perhaps orient it around gems (both dust and cut gems). That would simplify implementation and pave the way for a meaningful emitting craft.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 30, 2012, 01:05:31 PM
One way to mess with auto-corruption, perhaps, would be to designate which things trigger it. Like in the books themselves, while not all magical items come with a DP check, using ones that are blatantly evil do. So casting a spell like, say Animate Dead = auto-corruption check. Casting Cure Minor Wounds = not really a situation that calls for it. Just a notion, at least.

Of course, the other solution is a far more complicated one.. that being to implement the 'casting materials' system that's in the base tabletop setting in the first place. After all, that was always the case.. that there was a 'trade off' for each casting class' powers. Clerics got awesome powers, but it was tied to their deities. Sorcerers got magic by nature, but they lacked the discipline and foresight to wield it as safely as a wizard would. And Wizards get phenomenal cosmic powers, but through years of study, and needing to use spell components like 'crushed bone and slime residue' to cast a spell.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Honoun on December 30, 2012, 06:46:37 PM
I wouldn't be a fan of implementing an auto corruption thing either, for one the actual corruption should fit the actual intent of the crime as it were. To me its the intent that matters more than the actual act itself. Sure casting animate dead may be in the eyes of the dark powers worthy of a DP check but its why you did it that really catches their attention. Least that's the way I always understood it, so an auto system wouldn't really do this justice. Besides I would imagine scripting the punishment would be a nightmare to do as every situation is going to be slightly different from one to the next.

And don't get me started on spell components... I hate micro managing, it just takes away the focus of actually playing the game to managing all this needless extra stuff. Heck, I still grate against the diamond thing with my cleric, so yeah.... No thankyou.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: herkles on December 30, 2012, 06:52:50 PM
just curious Major Tom but was this from the 3.5 ravenloft player's handbook?
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 30, 2012, 08:55:19 PM
To me its the intent that matters more than the actual act itself. Sure casting animate dead may be in the eyes of the dark powers worthy of a DP check but its why you did it that really catches their attention.

"Hey, I just desecrated the bodies of a dozen children to create an undead army, driven by their own maddening suffering - but it was for a good cause!"
"Ye̡ea̴aa̡h.͏. ̶we'r̸e̡ ́not͏ b̛u̡yiń'̵ th̢a͞t̸ w͝hol͠e̵ '̸f̛or̛ t͘he͝ ģr͠e͝at̢er g̛o͡o҉d͏'͢ cr͏ap҉.̴"

Ravenloft doesn't function on terms of 'good' and 'evil' in the first place. Just 'Order' and 'Chaos'. Reviving the dead, as zombies, or bringing them back to life, is a disruption of the 'natural order', therefor it is chaos, therefor it is a DP check. It's why, in another thread, someone pointed out that Liz back in the ML temple oughta be DP5 by now due to how often she resurrects people.

As for the source of the weaknesses thing, herkles, it was the 2nd Ed. book - but if you're gonna insist on the dang 'editions' argument as usual, then I'll be happy to look up the 3rd Ed. criteria on ghosts. Would you like me to cross-reference werewolves while I'm at it? I mean, the 2nd Ed. book says they're weak versus silver, but I'm sure that changed too, right? Right. Also, if we're going to start citing the books on weaknesses, perhaps I should reiterate a point I made two years ago: Vampires are weak versus alchemical silver weapons.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: APorg on December 30, 2012, 08:58:47 PM
Ravenloft doesn't function on terms of 'good' and 'evil' in the first place. Just 'Order' and 'Chaos'. Reviving the dead, as zombies, or bringing them back to life, is a disruption of the 'natural order', therefor it is chaos, therefor it is a DP check. It's why, in another thread, someone pointed out that Liz back in the ML temple oughta be DP5 by now due to how often she resurrects people.

Um. What?

First of all, the entire point of Gothic horror is Good vs. Evil.

Secondly, Raise Dead is Conjuration. Not Necromancy.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 30, 2012, 09:05:01 PM
Um. What?

First of all, the entire point of Gothic horror is Good vs. Evil.

Secondly, Raise Dead is Conjuration. Not Necromancy.

Actually, the entire point of Gothic horror is 'morality', which, while sounding like Good vs Evil, isn't. Then there's the fact that scrying of any kind detecting Good and Evil does not function, but detecting Chaos and Law does. As for your remark on Raise Dead. Well..

Quote
Raise Dead/Slay Living: If the target of a raise dead spell fails his resurrection survival roll, he becomes an undead creature of a type equal in Hit Dice to his former level. Vampires are the most powerful creatures a raise dead spell can create in this fashion, and they retain any abilities they had in life. In campaigns where the Requiem rules are being used, characters raised as undead should be converted according to the guidelines presented in that accessory.

Casting this spell (or its reverse, slay living) requires a Ravenloft powers check.

Quote
Resurrection/Destruction: If the target of a resurrection spell fails his resurrection survival roll, he becomes an undead creature of a type equal in Hit Dice to his former level. Vampires are the most powerful creatures a resurrection spell can create in this fashion, and they retain any abilities they had in life. In campaigns utilizing the Requiem rules, characters raised as undead should be converted according to the guidelines presented in that accessory.

Casting this spell or its reverse, destruction, requires a Ravenloft powers check.

Personally I can see why they'd handwave this one, given the amount of butthurt I can imagine it producing. ..So anyway, moving on.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Bluebomber4evr on December 30, 2012, 09:16:21 PM
Um. What?

First of all, the entire point of Gothic horror is Good vs. Evil.

Secondly, Raise Dead is Conjuration. Not Necromancy.

Actually, the entire point of Gothic horror is 'morality', which, while sounding like Good vs Evil, isn't. Then there's the fact that scrying of any kind detecting Good and Evil does not function, but detecting Chaos and Law does.


No, you're 100% absolutely wrong; morality in D&D is Good and Evil. Law and Chaos as defined by D&D are "ethics." Ravenloft is about Good vs. Evil, and it says that in virtually every published Ravenloft product. The reason you can't detect evil in Ravenloft is because the Dark Powers are trying to force characters to determine whether someone is Evil by using their own judgment instead of relying on the gods to tell them via magic.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 30, 2012, 09:17:47 PM
Fair enough - then again, that's an alignment debate.. and any player of DnD knows to stay the hell away from alignment debates, because those are the source of eternal shitstorms.

Raise Dead point was still spot-on though. :D
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: APorg on December 30, 2012, 09:24:25 PM
Raise Dead point was still spot-on though. :D

True, but it's an odd one -- the rules for powers checks on spells cover "Evil or Necromantic" spells and "Evil and Necromantic" spells -- Raise Dead and Resurrection are neither Evil nor Necromantic.

Then again, maybe poor Liz already is a Darklord and that's why she's stuck in that godforsaken church.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 30, 2012, 09:27:23 PM
Well, again, it's cause you're in Ravenloft - the rules change accordingly. Since you're deep in the Ethereal, to begin with, and you're being yanked out of it, it stands to reason that you're screwing with the 'natural order', and that in turn is a deviancy. Heck, there ARE some cultures in some settings that consider resurrection magic to be an evil, due to the whole 'sanctity of life and death' thing. This is just one of those occasions. Plus it's the fact that you're knowingly risking creating a zombie or a vampire if the subject were to fail to resurrect properly.

So yeah.. To be honest, I wouldn't complain if they did apply it - they've already gone halfway there with adding the whole 'fail to resurrect right, come back as zombie' dealio. If nothing else it'd greatly reduce the resurrection abuse on the server, and add a whole new level of uncertainty to the whole 'fear of death' argument. I mean, heck, just cause it's a PW server, doesn't mean that people can resurrect willy-nilly; that's just a comfort given to the players. I've seen zombie survival servers that were PW and they were literally 'you have one life - if it's gone, you're out, make a new character.'

Not saying this server need emulate that, but.. y'know.. again, the main cause of death is how overpowered the monsters are. If the monsters were less overkill, and the gear less powerful, and the consequence of dying was raised to such high stakes.. I dunno, it might have an effect. Who knows. I'm just spitballin'.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: herkles on December 30, 2012, 09:28:09 PM
Morality is super important in gothic tales, and it often is good vs evil. even in ravenloft that is the case, it just is that characters can not tell what is good and evil, and so have to rely on what they know and feel; but there are things that are good and evil, hence DP checks.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Bluebomber4evr on December 30, 2012, 09:46:54 PM
The reasoning for raise dead/resurrection causing powers checks in PNP is because they were considered necromancy in 2nd edition and it was just carried over into 3rd edition Ravenloft.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 30, 2012, 09:57:17 PM
Perhaps, but that's not a very good 'lore' explanation for it. :O Hence why I suggested what I did.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Bluebomber4evr on December 30, 2012, 10:00:40 PM
Perhaps, but that's not a very good 'lore' explanation for it. :O Hence why I suggested what I did.
right, the fact that it still has a chance of turning people into undead monsters is good enough
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 30, 2012, 10:04:14 PM
I'm sorta starting to get the feeling I should really just be treating the server as 'Ravenloft Lite: Cherry Flavor', rather than constantly expecting the full-on Gothic horror experience, and that if I do so I'll probably stop getting this twitch in my eye. :lol:
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: DM Nocturne on December 30, 2012, 11:06:09 PM
I'm sorta starting to get the feeling I should really just be treating the server as 'Ravenloft Lite: Cherry Flavor', rather than constantly expecting the full-on Gothic horror experience, and that if I do so I'll probably stop getting this twitch in my eye. :lol:

Maybe you should stop trying to 'fix' things, and just enjoy it for what it is.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: dutchy on December 30, 2012, 11:20:06 PM
I'm sorta starting to get the feeling I should really just be treating the server as 'Ravenloft Lite: Cherry Flavor', rather than constantly expecting the full-on Gothic horror experience, and that if I do so I'll probably stop getting this twitch in my eye. :lol:

Well-Intending Bastard

Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 30, 2012, 11:30:06 PM
Maybe you should stop trying to 'fix' things, and just enjoy it for what it is.

I'm sorry. I'll add 'having a sense of humor about myself' to the list of things not allowed. Though now I'm at an impasse.. on the one side, I'm not allowed to treat the server as a serious roleplaying setting, but on the other hand, I'm not allowed to show levity in order to cope with this fact if your disapproving of my little jest acknowledging the exact 'just enjoy it for what it is' mentality you mentioned is something to go by.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: DM Nocturne on December 30, 2012, 11:58:55 PM
Maybe you should stop trying to 'fix' things, and just enjoy it for what it is.

I'm sorry. I'll add 'having a sense of humor about myself' to the list of things not allowed. Though now I'm at an impasse.. on the one side, I'm not allowed to treat the server as a serious roleplaying setting, but on the other hand, I'm not allowed to show levity in order to cope with this fact if your disapproving of my little jest acknowledging the exact 'just enjoy it for what it is' mentality you mentioned is something to go by.

I didn't say anything about you being allowed or not allowed to do anything. It's an imperfect gothic horror setting. It will never be perfect, because people are involved. Suggestions are fine, we've always paid attention to them, but sometimes it's better for your own sanity if you don't try and raise any sort of storms and try and be happy with what we've got.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Badelaire on December 31, 2012, 12:38:10 AM
Is it time for derailing pics now? I think it's time for derailing pics now:

MEANWHILE, IN FAERUN!

(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081013204034/forgottenrealms/images/1/1f/4e_gnolls.jpg)
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Amon-Si on December 31, 2012, 12:39:38 AM
Is it time for derailing pics now? I think it's time for derailing pics now:

MEANWHILE, IN FAERUN!

(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081013204034/forgottenrealms/images/1/1f/4e_gnolls.jpg)

Ah, reminds me of my honeymoon.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 31, 2012, 12:45:40 AM
..you knocked over scented candles and set fire to the hotel?
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Amon-Si on December 31, 2012, 12:48:01 AM
..you knocked over scented candles and set fire to the hotel?

Well... No, we ravaged a small community of weak, non-furry humans... It's a polish tradition.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Badelaire on December 31, 2012, 12:48:51 AM
MEANWHILE, IN THE NEAT STACK OF BOOKS AZALIN REX KEEPS HIDDEN UNDER HIS BED:

(http://www.asylum-booksandgames.com/shop/images/uploads/Ravenloft_Skeleton.JPG)

I like the original idea in theory btw as a long term CoA player and having fun missle-storming the crap out of people as a level 7 fighter there but you can see where the imbalance would happen here with the level and power range of PotM. They were a sparse rarity on a server that you could only gain xp and gold through scripted quests and the odd DM spice on and would come with a price tag to match. Neither would have that sort of barrier the cost and process of manufacture there proved here.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 31, 2012, 12:55:42 AM
As to the idea from the OP, it's not bad per se. I just prefer tying things into the crafting systems more so that it relies more on collaboration and less on just gold and level. This also make things in terms of progression less linear (not all tied up to the same dungeoning and looting).

Not to mention, it would just give the existing caster more power more or less freely.

An interesting way to overcome this - and perhaps facilitate a wider economy was if we could somehow meaningfully make an ingredient system. That way, casters would fund their spellcasting through selling attuned "gems" (or whichever we settle on) and there would be a meaningful interdependency. But a full blown ingredient system would be time consuming to implement and easily be a lot of extra (possibly frustrating) management for the casterss.

One of the things I'm trying to address is the "spell-sword" build (fighter/mage, fighter/sorc, fighter/bard, et cetera) which, even though it isn't as powerful as the cleric due to drastically less hp and ab, is nevertheless fun. Here, it's just not a viable build. At all. The lack of wands, and scrolls here invoking armour penalties, just makes it impractical. An attune gem ability, perhaps with a limit of one per day, would allow such builds to effectively save up spells for when they're needed.

As to "giving the caster more power more or less freely", I'd have to argue that it's not much more considering that only self-targeting spells can be stored in gems, and that it would cost the caster a lot more to create one than any existing craft. And it's especially not a great deal more if the caster were limited to producing only one such gem per rest period.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 31, 2012, 12:57:13 AM

I like the original idea in theory btw as a long term CoA player and having fun missle-storming the crap out of people as a level 7 fighter there but you can see where the imbalance would happen here with the level and power range of PotM. They were a sparse rarity on a server that you could only gain xp and gold through scripted quests and the odd DM spice on and would come with a price tag to match. Neither would have that sort of barrier the cost and process of manufacture there proved here.

My idea is for no offensive spells can be stored in gems, the IC reasoning being that a gem, when crushed, automatically targets the nearest person. The user.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Badelaire on December 31, 2012, 01:01:38 AM
As to the idea from the OP, it's not bad per se. I just prefer tying things into the crafting systems more so that it relies more on collaboration and less on just gold and level. This also make things in terms of progression less linear (not all tied up to the same dungeoning and looting).

Not to mention, it would just give the existing caster more power more or less freely.

An interesting way to overcome this - and perhaps facilitate a wider economy was if we could somehow meaningfully make an ingredient system. That way, casters would fund their spellcasting through selling attuned "gems" (or whichever we settle on) and there would be a meaningful interdependency. But a full blown ingredient system would be time consuming to implement and easily be a lot of extra (possibly frustrating) management for the casters.

One of the things I'm trying to address is the "spell-sword" build (fighter/mage, fighter/sorc, fighter/bard, et cetera) which, even though it isn't as powerful as the cleric due to drastically less hp and ab, is nevertheless fun. Here, it's just not a viable build. At all. The lack of wands, and scrolls here invoking armour penalties, just makes it impractical. An attune gem ability, perhaps with a limit of one per day, would allow such builds to effectively save up spells for when they're needed.

As the player of both a fighter/wiz and a pure bard both centering around the spellsword mentality, I can say there's no real hardship playing that concept here. You don't even need fighter levels with the bard as the extra feats allow you to pick martial and heavy armours if you so should choose that route.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 31, 2012, 01:09:10 AM
Right, Badelaire. No real problem if you don't think taking your plate off to buff before a fight, a process that IRL would take several minutes or even half an hour, is silly. Or use Still Spell feat so that you can, as a lvl 7 bard, finally cast one lvl 2 spell per rest cycle. If and only if your CHA is 16. Yeah, being able to save a spell for later in a gem would just be terrible.  :roll:

So, I give up. Everything is fine, everything is peachy keen, everyone is happy. Or perhaps there's an awful lot of "I'll suck up to the dev team by extolling the virtues of the status quo".

Starting to remember why I left this server two years ago despite my deep love of the setting and atmosphere.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 31, 2012, 01:15:37 AM
Stiiiill preachin' to that choir there, Green. But it's best to just give up altogether. The only changes you can expect to see are ones of more enchanted item drops, and then subsequent increases in death penalties, followed by increases in monster difficulties in order to counter-balance the imbalance caused by the new items, rinse and repeat. Trying to make suggestions, be it in a friendly way, a constructive way, an assertive way, or an aggressive way, will be met with the same shrugging, so it's best to just stop caring and stop treating it like you're playing a Ravenloft server but something 'kinda-sorta-but-not-really'. Y'know, like Fallout 3 is to previous installations, or whatever. You're only gonna end up upsetting yourself, then getting warned, threatened with bans, or just plain banned, when you end up shrieking against the way you get shrugged off and thus set off alarms in doing so.

tl;dr Just give in to apathy as, in an ironic kind of way, the server - for roleplayers like you and me - has achieved the goal of the Ravenloft setting: kill all hope and leave you feeling dead inside and utterly abandoned and isolated. :D
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 31, 2012, 01:21:45 AM
Ya know, in a way that was what I just said. Well, not really. My suggestion was more akin to 'reality is broked, let's just laugh as the walls of our minds collapse around us'. In essence the only way to play it as a Ravenloft server is to ignore 90% of the mechanics, content and players, plus the DM events (though, given my past experiences, all DM events for me have been 'I'm gonna spam 50 werebats at you, and when you try to investigate why I did so, in-character, and make all of the relevant rolls, I'm going to kill you with lightning. On a clear-skied night. For no reason.' Plus that one time a DM cheated in order to punish players for working together and beating the odds with teamwork, roleplay and heroism in order to push back a rigged spawn of Falkovnian invaders when the DM's plan was clearly to wipe out everyone. So that's why I ignore DM events, at any rate) leaving you with the only other option, which is 'pretend it just looks like Ravenloft, and has the same name! But isn't!'
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 31, 2012, 01:29:55 AM
I'm just trying to make a suggestion that would benefit many a bit, benefit a few a LOT, and HURT NO ONE. And yet I get a firestorm in response.

Every time I see someone "take off their plate" to buff before a fight, I get a serious case of the twitches. Taking full plate off and putting it on again is a process that should take 20 minutes at least, and that's with the help of a squire! (And I get especially twitchy when that person is apparently naked under their plate). Can't stop that, so I came up with a system of saving buffs for later using gems to mitigate the necessity. A system that's far, far more limited than any other implementation of any such thing I've ever seen. So far, no one has yet to give any rational explanation for how it's a bad idea. Because it isn't. But they're all against it because it's different. So, screw it. I give up.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 31, 2012, 01:32:18 AM
*Pat, pat* Just take a deep breath.. eventually, the apathy will take hold.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Badelaire on December 31, 2012, 01:35:30 AM
Well in essence, you could argue many points like that such as the memorising of spells as a wizard should take uninterrupted hours of study and not taking a squat in the middle of the road like a linebacker getting his breath back. Suspension of disbelief is part and parcel of video gaming. What we expect and what we get are two entirely different things.

Here's my image of what an Ezrite's bearing is for example:

(http://th07.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2010/248/e/0/ravenloft___ezran_nun_by_earthsprite-d2y1juh.jpg)

Here's the opinion of my then main Tredow, on what Ezrites seem to be about from IC experiences (warning, possible sexy image):

Spoiler: show
(http://img.alibaba.com/photo/111115465/Sexy_Nun.jpg)


You see? Entirely different.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 31, 2012, 01:39:30 AM
Lies! Totally inaccurate lies! That slut's outfit should be GREEN not black! I find you to be an unreliable source, good sire, and rebuke your counsel!
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Badelaire on December 31, 2012, 01:41:31 AM
You'll have to photoshop it yourself, I'm a good boy and don't look at naughty images of semi-naked women of ill repute. I had to say 10 hail Ezra's just to absolve myself of the sin of carnal lust that lurks beneath in the coming time of unparalleled darkness. What was this thread about again?
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 31, 2012, 01:44:10 AM
Doesn't matter now, it'll never get implemented, so it's more or less free reign for madness until it inevitably gets shut down and deleted to keep future players from getting similar ideas. At least until they reach the same conclusions on their own.
:cheer:
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 31, 2012, 01:49:43 AM
I think the thread is about people being perfectly happy to take their armour off to buff themselves before a fight, and how this is not at all a bad thing and doesn't in any way break immersion for the people around them, and so any system that would render it unnecessary, like saving buffing spells for later in gems, would make the server suddenly become a madhouse of epic characters soloing Perfidus, missle-storms flying everywhere. A thread wherein people who would benefit from the idea are against it because they want to suck up to the dev team with the notion that everything is perfect as-is, and people who would neither benefit nor be hurt by it being even more against it, because they can't bear for anyone else to have anything nice.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: herkles on December 31, 2012, 01:51:08 AM
my ezrite clerics dressed like the first image badelaire not the second. >>>
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 31, 2012, 01:52:31 AM
I'm dressed like the second image IRL, right now. It's my forum posting outfit.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on December 31, 2012, 01:55:44 AM
I think this thread needs this..

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYLsyNBnE5M[/youtube]

 :fonzie:

..also, Green.. picz nao?
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Badelaire on December 31, 2012, 01:56:58 AM
Anyone who's done Perf will know missle storms are a waste of spell slots/scrolls btw. Malphor chews those things up and spits out the seeds, sport.


EDIT:

On the subject of immersion, I always accrue so much instance crap on my PC's they should rightly end up looking like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/z3n0Vl.jpg)
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on December 31, 2012, 02:09:14 AM
No pics, you can google search for my webcam. $1.99 CAD per minute.

Back on topic, hasn't it ever occurred to anyone that when you take off your plate mail to cast your arcane spells before a fight, you're causing the others in your group to facepalm IRL? Why is there such opposition to an idea that would BENEFIT the server and hurt NO ONE? Seriously.

The only explanation I can think of is that there's an awful lot of people being like "Oh, look at me, dev team. I'm sticking up for the server as-is because everything you've done to date is just perfect. Now can I please have that special sword with my name etched on the blade that I applied for?". Honestly. Yes, the dev team have done a wonderful job, but it isn't perfect. It can never be perfect. Nothing can.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Soren / Zarathustra217 on December 31, 2012, 04:01:15 AM
I'm just trying to make a suggestion that would benefit many a bit, benefit a few a LOT, and HURT NO ONE. And yet I get a firestorm in response.

I honestly think you're the only one making a firestorm here. Beside you and Tom, there's no agitation. And carelessly suggesting that everyone else are just brown nosing the developers is both disrespectful and derailing.

You can only discuss productively if you make an earnest effort to see the other view. I don't see that you've logically refuted any counter argument, but much rather seem to trivialize them. That's where it becomes subjective - and a little humility toward that aspect would really improve the dialogue here. It's somewhat painstaking to read your and Tom's posts about being ignored in that light.

You don't like how spellswords quickly remove and re-equip armour before a fight. You feel it ruins your immersion. But to other's it is trivial and fall under the category of little compromises that may not be all that realistic but doesn't get in the way of roleplay (much as the ability to carry hundreds of items around even if it doesn't show up on your character). This will remain an open question and up to subjective assessment and it's unfounded to consider those who disagree with you less interested in roleplay because of that.

Second, there's the question of power - which is notoriously hard to assess, thus prone to a great amount of subjectivity. You say that it will be expensive, but there are quite many high level characters where those costs would seem diminutive. For others, it would be an incitement to solo more, as that's the best way to guarantee you get the fattest share of the loot. Consequently, it could grant already powerful characters a virtually limitless supply of spell casting items, overcoming spells per day limitations etc. I think it's fair to at least have some scepticism here.

But as I've also already said, there are compelling aspects too. It's just not nearly as much a no-brainer that you make it to be. And insisting on that is making you the one blind to argument - and blowing wind to the firestorm.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Lucadia on December 31, 2012, 05:13:08 AM
Im not sure Iv seen anyone take off their armor to buff with spells or maybe most of us are good enough to recraft a robe to look like our armor when switching  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Honoun on December 31, 2012, 05:26:11 AM
On the subject of having to remove armour to cast spells for a spellsword (not actually sure what that is to be honest, first time I even heard about is in this thread). I'm one who takes the stance of, well, so what? Roleplay out the removing of the armour and all that is fine and dandy and if that's what you get your kicks out of then by all means go for it. And I have seen  some players do this actually. Keep in mind though that my characters might get a little testy as they'll see it as wasting time when there is adventure to be had! On the other hand if you're just going to quickly un-equip your armour, cast your buffs then just as quickly re-equip the armour then that too is fine by me. I understand that roleplaying that stuff out is really kinda tedious, I like to call doing such as milking the roleplay myself.

I mean some people are masters at emoting inane stuff in a visual medium where you see the character doing it anyway. Take [Walks across the room and sits down in a chair on the far side].. The amount of times I have seen emotes similar to this to which I stare at the screen and laugh and think.. No really? You're kidding me? I swear I just saw the avatar you're controlling doing this.

Milk the roleplay guys, its the only way to level :P
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Budly on December 31, 2012, 05:41:36 AM
..you knocked over scented candles and set fire to the hotel?

Well... No, we ravaged a small community of weak, non-furry humans... It's a polish tradition.

Just like us Scandinavians but we use horned helmets!

Anyway, lets be nice to Green Monster now folks? :)
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Soren / Zarathustra217 on December 31, 2012, 05:52:56 AM
Well, it's not any better saying it's superfluous to roleplay it if that's how some feel they make the world come alive. Embrace the diversity and try to appreciate the creativity itself. Some like to roleplay in very literally based ways (Ron looked around at the crowd and mumbled "What a bunch of no good inbreds" while he picked his nose idly) - this isn't the method I'd use myself, but I can see how there is some merit to it (focusing on the narrative aspect). I myself prefer the classic NwN style, but neither approach is intrinsically better and there is plenty of room for both.

The same applies for things such as roleplaying donning armour. Don't call people less roleplaying if they don't, but play along with it and give them time to if they do. From the outset, we are all privileged by each other's presence here and should not take it for granted nor disregard it - but get the most out of it, letting it unfold whatever it is.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Honoun on December 31, 2012, 06:15:10 AM
I think you missunderstood me or maybe I wasn't explaining it well enough. If players want to RP every action thier character does even if some of it is needless considering we are playing a visiual medium then I'm happy for them for doing so. It does make my laugh though, but then I find many things in life quite funny when others don't. I tend to not do such things myself, for instance if my char walks into a room pauses for a moment for what ever inner thought she may be having before sitting then thats what I'll make her do. Though I don't emote the inner thought she is having cause well, its an inner thought and no one should see what she is "thinking" anyway. But I may make notes in the journal if such thoughts happen to be relevant or important. ;)
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Soren / Zarathustra217 on December 31, 2012, 07:08:52 AM
Well, willing or not, you are still portraying others' style of roleplay as superflous in how you word it - like calling these elements "inane" and "needless". But I think the most significant is to not rush at people who do it (even if it may be IC for your character to do so), but rather pick up on it and be the counterpart for letting it unfold.

Anyway, lets be nice to Green Monster now folks? :)

I feel it's more proper to say: Let us all - Green Monster included - be nice to each other.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Honoun on December 31, 2012, 08:48:01 AM
Well I didn't mean to belitte anyone elses RP, was just saying I thought some of it was funny... I appologise if I have offended anyone. :oops:
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Silverfox on December 31, 2012, 08:52:54 AM
If we wanted to encourage spellsword builds, then we could always try implementing armour with reduced ASF. Say, a Mithril Chain having 10% ASF instead of 25-30%. I play a Bard that casts in leathers. I just accept the spell failure as a necessary and minor risk for my continued good health. And now, if we were to craft these things with the smithing skill, that opens up more spellsword builds (at a ludicrous price to the purchaser no doubt), we've effectively tacked what I believe to be a balanced spellsword solution onto an existing craft, and it only requires 8 new items (the armours, mithril ore, mithril ingot), and (likely small) amendments to one of the existing crafts.

Of course, I could just be talking nonsense, but I've always wanted to recreate my P&P Ravenloft charater, a Swashbuckler/Duskblade hybrid, in spirit so I've put a bit of thought into this one.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: APorg on December 31, 2012, 09:14:03 AM
Ah, reminds me of my honeymoon.

Man, you Aussies are crazy.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: dutchy on December 31, 2012, 09:52:42 AM
Ah, reminds me of my honeymoon.

Man, you Aussies are crazy.

one weird fella ain he.

oh boy badalaire i like the meanwhiles, you never realise what happends somewhere untill it is shown THNX for the educational posts.  :lol:

green- if you remembered why you left, and you are hitting the same road block again then maybe this place is simply not ment for you.  (why bother with something when you don't enjoy it?)

major- same goes for you, cause thats the impression im getting from your posts a player who is bitter about what he sees and is frustrated cause he cant change it (or tries to and isnt accepted to try it)
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Knas on December 31, 2012, 01:20:11 PM
Please stop spamming the thread with nonsense people, go to the tavern if that's your game.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: eyeofpestilence on December 31, 2012, 01:25:30 PM
As to the idea from the OP, it's not bad per se. I just prefer tying things into the crafting systems more so that it relies more on collaboration and less on just gold and level. This also make things in terms of progression less linear (not all tied up to the same dungeoning and looting).

Not to mention, it would just give the existing caster more power more or less freely.

An interesting way to overcome this - and perhaps facilitate a wider economy was if we could somehow meaningfully make an ingredient system. That way, casters would fund their spellcasting through selling attuned "gems" (or whichever we settle on) and there would be a meaningful interdependency. But a full blown ingredient system would be time consuming to implement and easily be a lot of extra (possibly frustrating) management for the casterss.

One of the things I'm trying to address is the "spell-sword" build (fighter/mage, fighter/sorc, fighter/bard, et cetera) which, even though it isn't as powerful as the cleric due to drastically less hp and ab, is nevertheless fun. Here, it's just not a viable build. At all. The lack of wands, and scrolls here invoking armour penalties, just makes it impractical. An attune gem ability, perhaps with a limit of one per day, would allow such builds to effectively save up spells for when they're needed.

As to "giving the caster more power more or less freely", I'd have to argue that it's not much more considering that only self-targeting spells can be stored in gems, and that it would cost the caster a lot more to create one than any existing craft. And it's especially not a great deal more if the caster were limited to producing only one such gem per rest period.

Between potions, varnishes and scrolls a person could make a spell sword they'd just use these items mentioned instead of potions and possibly invest in the existing crafts and some cross class UMD.

IMHO this system, though a very interesting idea, is redundant to other systems already in place and if the dev team doesn't have the time or current focus on it, as they are all volunteers, it won't get done. Also if Scribe Scroll was implemented it could/would (Don't know since it's not available POTM style) decrease the need for many varnishes and some very rare potions.  

On the cost examples given, for my high teens wizard, he'd never do it and wouldn't be able to afford it. He's to self centred and believes in his own power. My non-caster would order in tens, twenties and thirties b/c the cost is cheap compared to the potential expense/rareness of acquiring other items.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: LackofCertainty on January 01, 2013, 09:42:27 PM
If you want to make a melee arcane caster, play a dex based bard with parry.  High dex + parry + tumble lets you wear light armor and go without a shield, so your spell failure should be very low.  (bards are just monsters in general past the early levels)

Sure, the average cleric will have better stats for herbalism, but not by too massive a margin.  Clerics have a lot of stats to cover.  For sorcs and wizards, on the other hand, they have basically no stat concerns past int/cha, so they can easily pump con to 12-14 without sacrificing anything.  Honestly, I feel like you're making a big deal out of a 1-3 point advantage.    The only clerics that would have a major stat advantage for herbalism would be pure caster clerics, which are pretty rare in my experience. (although i admit I've wanted to make one of those for a while now)

On the other hand, wizards -do- have a massive stat advantage over clerics for alchemy, and it gives them access to + shield ac as a varnish.  Maybe that's not super valuable to a wizard by default, but it is a powerful buff for their allies, and the spell that it replaces is cleric only.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Ophie Kitty on January 02, 2013, 01:21:34 AM
I've been meleeing as a mage since like, level 6. You'll never be as good as a fighter, but that doesn't mean you can't do it.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Badelaire on January 02, 2013, 09:05:09 AM
Regarding that suggestion about armours with reduced arcane spell failures, adding those properties to an item pushes their toolset cost up by an incredibly high amount far beyond the 8k limitation on items currently. As for things like mithral armours, that material is supposed to be incredibly rare in the demi-plane. The only example I ever heard of IG was presented to Strahd for his armoury way back. It took Van Richten a decade or two to be able to scrounge enough adamantine to make a single arrow-head to destroy a werebadger (or some other exotic werebeast) he was hunting so you can imagine how hard super metals are to come by.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: BahamutZ3RO on January 02, 2013, 11:46:53 AM
I've been meleeing as a mage since like, level 6. You'll never be as good as a fighter, but that doesn't mean you can't do it.

Also, other mages will ridicule you mercilessly.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Badelaire on January 02, 2013, 09:13:34 PM
I've been meleeing as a mage since like, level 6. You'll never be as good as a fighter, but that doesn't mean you can't do it.

Also, other mages will ridicule you mercilessly.

Ironic since Alexias wrote the book on reactionary wizards and how not to be a one trick pony. A mage for all seasons. <3

In her words:

"Many use magic, fewer will ever understand it."
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Ophie Kitty on January 03, 2013, 04:41:56 AM
I've been meleeing as a mage since like, level 6. You'll never be as good as a fighter, but that doesn't mean you can't do it.

Also, other mages will ridicule you mercilessly.

Ironic since Alexias wrote the book on reactionary wizards and how not to be a one trick pony. A mage for all seasons. <3

In her words:

"Many use magic, fewer will ever understand it."

I'm sure you have that catalogued in some Alexias fanbook. Stalker.

Edit: POST NUMBER 1000, WOOT
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Ophie Kitty on January 03, 2013, 04:44:28 AM
I've been meleeing as a mage since like, level 6. You'll never be as good as a fighter, but that doesn't mean you can't do it.

Also, other mages will ridicule you mercilessly.

Laugh at Gandalf. I dare you. Sure, he isn't going to be Aragorn with a blade, but he still kills a few goblins, oh, and stand up to Baalrogs.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on January 03, 2013, 04:45:53 AM
Gandalf doesn't freakin' count. He's a level 30 Solar, shapechanged to look like a Human.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Ophie Kitty on January 03, 2013, 05:30:58 AM
War Wizards of Cormyr (and even the prestige class) is another example of a faction of mages who expect martial training. They're a bit more real than Gandalf. Eldritch Knights, Spellswords, just some more PRCs where melee wizards were 'encouraged.' Like I mentioned, you don't have to be the best at something just to be able to do it. Its about playing a character, and if by chance, in the case of my own character, someone decided to teach you to use a sword and shield to defend yourself in the circumstances you might not always have a spellbook to protect you, It led to some rather indepth roleplay.

In terms of mechanics, a level 6 wizard is roughly the same as a level 3 fighter.. just slightly less HP and less armor.

When you look at things in a longer term.. A level 12 wizard is a level 6 fighter, but might have access to certain utility that can't be cast on the fighter. Globe of Invulnerability is the big suggestion, one of the -best- utility to have in some of more difficult places.


I shall just assume you've never dungeoned with me, or anyone else who knows how to pass off a rather decent melee-mage. (We are a few minority)


Would you like to ridicule me for taking Exotic Weapon, Light Armor, and Shield Proficiency as a wizard?
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on January 03, 2013, 05:33:26 AM
Well, I wouldn't, but that's because I'm hopelessly struggling to pull off my own type of spell-sword roleplay with Poet and such. It's pretty tough, especially since I'm built for roleplay, not for survival-at-all-costs.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Ophie Kitty on January 03, 2013, 05:34:58 AM
Well, I wouldn't, but that's because I'm hopelessly struggling to pull off my own type of spell-sword roleplay with Poet and such. It's pretty tough, especially since I'm built for roleplay, not for survival-at-all-costs.

I was a 15int / 16cha at creation, so I wouldn't call my own build 'the best' for wizards.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Major Tom on January 03, 2013, 05:39:33 AM
Well, I'm runnin' 14 across the board, save for Wisdom. Currently a level 11 Bard/Fighter. So yeah.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: herkles on January 03, 2013, 11:47:40 AM
also for the war wizard stuff, in Eberron, it would not be out of place for war-mages, or mages whose magic is for the battlefield, to have some martial training; there was a war that lasted over a 100 years so war-mages just might have some martial training. Particularly Karrn war-mages who are officers would have had training at Rekkenmark to become officers, and thus some martial training.

also mages get ever stat buff, That I suppose can help a lot in evening the field out for fighter mages :)
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Ovidiu_Lacusta on January 03, 2013, 12:52:52 PM
I had remarkable success just putting 4 levels in fighter for the specialization and going the rest sorcerer.  Worked wonders, really.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on January 20, 2013, 03:42:21 PM
I just fail to see how having dozens upon dozens of loot table items with spell effects is better than having player crafted ones.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Ophie Kitty on January 20, 2013, 04:14:10 PM
There aren't really dozen of spell items, and those are limited based on how many you can find.. which because of how spawn timers work, rather limited. When you look at potion brewing, you are only limited to the amount of herbs you can find, which in turn is limited again by only being readily avaliable half the seasons. Arrows? You can only shoot so many, thus, has its limits.. but when you start adding spell crafting (and even scroll/wand making) there is a powerful mechanic that can be limited only by wealth.

Scroll scribing doesn't exist so their isn't people with tons of money running around with unlimited stacks of timestop scrolls.. The attune gem system worked on CoA because their economy was way limited to the extend that magic-consumables actually had a limiting-cost. In a world where people can knock out 50,000g in an hour.. those 1-2k wands, or 9th level scribe scrolls, or those level 5 spell gems would be in abundance.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on January 31, 2013, 07:45:59 PM
On other servers, in order for my bard with craft wand feat to get supplies together for some adventuring, she buys a blank wand, casts Cure Serious Wounds on it, and gets in return an item called "incomplete wand" which she then takes to a crafting station to pay a bit of xp and a lot of gold to have it turned into a wand of Cure Serious Wounds.  Then, I rest and do the same thing with Ghostly Visage. Just four or five minutes of my time, a fair amount of xp lost and a lot of gold spent, and I'm ready to rock with 25 uses of healing and 25 uses of Ghostly Visage that will last me several days. Leaving me with plenty of time for actual adventuring and role-playing, and I have complete control over what wands I have at my disposal.

Here, I spend hours gathering herbs, paying others for herbs, and dithering around at the potions station to get some potions and if I'm very lucky I might get what I want, but it depends entirely on what herbs are found. It's random.

Guess which is more fun. I mean, more fun if you're not a fan of Minecraft.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Kaspar on January 31, 2013, 07:58:28 PM
It only took me a couple hours to get a bag full of cure serious/cure critical potions via methods of farming herbs and buying them. That's over a 100 uses- I also have looted several ghost rods and bought them from passerby merchants. This method didn't cost me any xp and very minimal gold.

On the other hand.

We have an enchanting system. Why not add in enchanting rods with certain spells, few charges, and a balanced xp/gold cost. I say very low xp cost (maybe 100-200 depending on charge amount) because they're expendables. Badbud mentioned in another thread that enchanters lacked a good way to level up the trade. This could offer some decent novice experience.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Green Monster on January 31, 2013, 08:05:22 PM
Even a couple of hours is too long to spend on something tedious like gathering herbs and making potions, and you're not counting the countless hours you spent on practice to get to the craft level needed to make those potions. This is a game. It should be fun. Not tedious.

Yes, Vasile, we should be able to attune single-use gems for very minor xp cost (like two or three xp per spell level per gem?) and multi-use wands for much more xp. The xp cost would be worth it because it takes a lot less time and enables us to get on with having actual fun.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Dread on January 31, 2013, 08:44:41 PM
I would rather not see tons of consumables used by everybody everywhere, and instead would like to see people actually utilizing a party dynamic - E.G., people going and questing with a balanced party. Additionally, herbalism is perhaps the easiest crafting skill to master. I'm not sure we need it to be any easier. If anything, it's smithing that needs to be made more accessible.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: APorg on January 31, 2013, 08:48:44 PM
Yeah, I managed to master herbalism very easily as a paladin who was my first PC. Smithing on the other hand is so incredibly dull it makes my brain melt.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Badelaire on January 31, 2013, 09:19:06 PM
Alchemy and herbalism were by far the quickest progression for me. Smithing was laboriously tedious and usually outdone by most weapons on the loot tables if you're not fussed with going enchanted gear route. Bowyers/fletchers need more love too, they're labour intensive and the craft progression seems slow. I've made something like 20 bows now and not even got off level 1.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Bad_Bud on January 31, 2013, 10:48:42 PM
Smithing is different than the other crafts, and incredibly easy to level if you have access to money and have the capability of grabbing the resources yourself (which are entirely unlimited, unlike other crafts).  I was admittedly level 20 on Sedrik when I started to learn smithing, but I was mastered to the level of being able to make any steel armor by the end of my third day grinding it.  No other craft even comes close to mastering that fast, and it's because of the incredible cost of the full plate template that nearly gives full levels each time items are crafted with it.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Silverfox on February 01, 2013, 05:58:41 AM
Smithing takes weeks of investment if you can't bruteforce plate, which requires you to be high level and/or "twinked" out of the ass.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Ercvadasz on February 01, 2013, 06:09:34 AM
Alchemy and herbalism were by far the quickest progression for me. Smithing was laboriously tedious and usually outdone by most weapons on the loot tables if you're not fussed with going enchanted gear route. Bowyers/fletchers need more love too, they're labour intensive and the craft progression seems slow. I've made something like 20 bows now and not even got off level 1.

actually the love exists, just you do not make bows for CP gain. Bows are very low on CP gain, untill you can craft white stag yew shortbows. Thereafter there is a huge difference in the composite bow gain.
Title: Re: Attune Gem
Post by: Xarnata on February 03, 2013, 12:57:27 AM
Perhaps instead of buyable/findable. Make them an alchemy craftable with base gems as a component. "One can release power into the world to create chaos, but the true test is to control power to create order" - IDK. Perhaps as diamonds are 'pure' and have script references already, they could be adapted to this script as a side function. This would limit the number of circles storable, put it in a 'tug of war' with res costs. Each level of gem would require bits from  dangerous targets, making it a hard if near impossible to mass produce object, keeping to the low magic setting.  A simple script could be added and later replaced for a more 'pretty' script. First add alchemy recipie,  then have script that opens a gump then: -Get set spells -Get available spells: Mark as SET SPELLS X -list SET SPELLS X (selectable): Upon selection set R to(# unique to spell), Yes/No gump -set spell (selected) Unavailable (can be replaced with un-set) -run animation: by spell: wait for end animation: run VFX 'magic weapon' run sound 'weapon buff' get R Set SPELLSTONE to R. Add item SPELLSTONE to inventory, Remove Item INERT STONE. Of course fine tune it.