Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Public (OOC) => Setting and Lore Discussion => Topic started by: herkles on October 16, 2012, 11:05:55 PM

Title: Lawgiver questions
Post by: herkles on October 16, 2012, 11:05:55 PM
Hola,

As I play a mulani wizardess from hazlan who follows the lawgiver I was curious about some things relating to that faith. :)

 :arrow: how do the hazlani view Myeatrie and the doctrine that evil comes from arcane magic?

 :arrow: I know in 2nd edition that the Lawgiver was called bane, but in 3rd due to the lincense he could not be. So what does the church call him? Is it sort of a belief that one should fear speaking Bane's name out loud, hence he goes by the titles? or does he just go by the titles or just bane?

 :arrow: what are saints in the Lawgiver faith? are they just exalted holy men? or are they men that you ask to pray to the lawgiver for you? and used as battle cries? sort of like how england has "for saint George!" perhaps a city in hazlan/nova vaasi might shout "for saint Gorkyn!"

sincerely,

-herkles
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: Geiger on October 16, 2012, 11:22:54 PM
 :arrow: The Churches in Hazlan and Nova Vasaa are separate in terms of local power, they do have the Imperial meet ups and their own "Pope" figure who unites the two but they have regional autonomy . They agree on almost everything but the Church in Hazlan will not enforce its policies on body modification or magic for two big reasons.

             :arrow: Hazlan's culture around tattoos is very important to them - anything designed towards stopping the practice will probably be met with a terrible repression (Hazlik kicking out the Church). Another factor within Hazlan is that the population is mostly Rashemi who abide by the Church. The Church gives them hope that their toil will give them an ultimate reward - so basically, I can see them being the main group of parishioners and believers that the Church tries to appeal to. Also remember there is going to be a difference between: "normal people", "lay-members (parishioners), and the clergy. The Clergy are likely to have some sort of rules on tattoos and other such markings - I'd assume so anyway. The Church is more or less a way to export Nova Vaasan culture and ideals outside their borders.

             :arrow: Calling out Hazlik's decrees will ignore a big feature of their Church (and get them kicked out) and its purpose - its concept of divine right, and the infallibility of rulers deemed favored by the Lawgiver. Magic is decreed legal and to question it is to question authority and God-given wisdom by the leaderships. That'd cause a big schism. Basically the issue here is that they support Hazlik and can't really call him out without recognizing they were wrong. It also makes sense within their dogma too, that they would accept it as he's got the favor of the Lawgiver. However: Wizards who are not approved through the academy are likely fair game, as they are not legal and approved and aren't under the law. People outside of Hazlan especially would be not under these decrees because they were not approved or taught by Hazlik. Thus - agents of myterri.


 :arrow: The Lawgiver is.. kinda Bane - or at least he was. I think what they tried to represent in the game was the real connection Bane had to the world - he used to ACTUALLY give his power out, it wasn't interfered with due to the Unspoken pact.. but when he died on Faerun, they didn't get their powers anymore the DPs had to step in as surrogates. (Also probably causing the rumor that the Lawgiver died either from Outlander priests of Bane.) Banites from other settings will probably be branded apostates/heretics. Especially since they don't speak Vaasi, and they call him by what I assume would now be a forbidden name.

 :arrow: I don't think they would, they make have exemplars of faith who they might tell stories of.. but I doubt they'd have saints because it might get people to think of something other than the Lawgiver and hiearchary. So don't plan on it - too close to idolatry.
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: Bluebomber4evr on October 17, 2012, 12:14:46 AM

 :arrow: The Lawgiver is.. kinda Bane - or at least he was. I think what they tried to represent in the game was the real connection Bane had to the world - he used to ACTUALLY give his power out, it wasn't interfered with due to the Unspoken pact.. but when he died on Faerun, they didn't get their powers anymore the DPs had to step in as surrogates. (Also probably causing the rumor that the Lawgiver died either from Outlander priests of Bane.) Banites from other settings will probably be branded apostates/heretics. Especially since they don't speak Vaasi, and they call him by what I assume would now be a forbidden name.

Not quite, in fact it's the opposite of what happened. Clerics of Bane in Ravenloft continued to receive spells even after Bane died on Toril. During the Grand Conjunction, when Ravenloft briefly merged with the Prime Material Plane, Ravenloft's Banites lost the ability to cast their spells, and only regained them when the Grand Conjunction ended.

But it was always supposed to be Bane. I prefer the name Bane to the Lawgiver name, but both of them are valid and can be used interchangeably, or together as "Bane the Lawgiver" or "Lawgiver Bane" etc.
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: Geiger on October 17, 2012, 12:57:48 AM
Oh. So would the part about doctrinal differences between RL Banites and the "others"? I went along the lines of no Vaasi, no lovin'. (Basically, adapt and submit to RL values? They kind of remind of the Catholic Church in the middle ages where they were not allowed to preach in Vulgar languages and had to use Latin.)

Also on a slightly unrelated note:

(Is Vaasi actually supposed to be Faerunian common, but for simplicity's sake we've made common intelligible to everyone more or less? It really seems like that way in the Gazetters, with all of the main Faerunian type domains having majority language as Vaasi (and their Darklords are from there too). Heck, even Gondegal (the dude who ruled Arabel) speaks Vaasi and they have an asterisk beside it but never explain WHY, haha.)
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: HellsPanda on October 17, 2012, 01:03:26 AM
The Lawgiver is actually one of the titles of Bane in Faerun.

The Lawgivers of RL and the Banites of Faerun are very different churches, the Banites belive in domination by warfare and fear. The Lawgivers belive in the continuation of the Divine mandate of any ruler. Banites are far more proactive in their basic dogma, its also forbidden according to the holy texts of The Lawgiver to speak his name.

The arcane thing is one of the biggest schisms between the Nova Vaasi and Hazlani churches, despite accepting the lawfully trained Wizards of the Academy of Hazlik as a necessary evil because of Hazlik's divine mandate, the priesthood still despises arcane magic in all its forms.
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: Bluebomber4evr on October 17, 2012, 01:12:43 PM
Oh. So would the part about doctrinal differences between RL Banites and the "others"? I went along the lines of no Vaasi, no lovin'. (Basically, adapt and submit to RL values? They kind of remind of the Catholic Church in the middle ages where they were not allowed to preach in Vulgar languages and had to use Latin.)
I think it would be similar to the Protestant/Catholic clashes in Europe during the 1400s-1600s. They have a lot in common, but they'd focus on the tiny differences and would call each other heretics over those small differences.

Quote
Also on a slightly unrelated note:

(Is Vaasi actually supposed to be Faerunian common, but for simplicity's sake we've made common intelligible to everyone more or less? It really seems like that way in the Gazetters, with all of the main Faerunian type domains having majority language as Vaasi (and their Darklords are from there too). Heck, even Gondegal (the dude who ruled Arabel) speaks Vaasi and they have an asterisk beside it but never explain WHY, haha.)
I believe that was the intention of the Gazetteer authors, yes, but we found that to be extremely problematic, with everyone claiming they could speak Vaasi, or that Vaasi was Ravenloft's common tongue (it's not). So we've gone with the "universal Common" prevalent in 2nd edition books (explained as spreading by planar and space travel). It think it's easier to say that the Vaasi language evolved out of some Faerunian tongue, although what language all the disparate lands the darklords hail from have in common is beyond me (Hazlik and Von Kharkov are from Thay, Lukas is from Cormyr, Hiregaard is supposedly from Vaasa, and Gondegal was from the Arabel region).

its also forbidden according to the holy texts of The Lawgiver to speak his name.
I tend to ignore this as it's clearly the White Wolf authors using IC terms to explain away the OOC licensing issue they were facing. Plenty of 2nd edition products have IC tracts written by Hazlani and/or Nova Vaasan characters referring to him as Bane and the Church of Bane (off the top of my head, Van Richten's Guide to Witches). They did the same thing with Lord Soth, making some silly statement that people were afraid that saying Soth's name would make him return and thus all references to Soth use "The Black Rose." It's a silly licensing hang-up that we don't have to worry about, so I ignore it.
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: herkles on October 17, 2012, 01:47:50 PM
Well, at least for my laywoman I like the idea that laity shouldn't speak the name while the priests can, tis just me. Plus I am really used to assoicating lawgiver=ravenloft and bane=fearun.

more questions!

 :arrow: still wanting to know the positon on the saints  (http://"http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=12803.msg177635#msg177635")within the lawgiver church.

 :arrow: Can someone be willing to provide some examples of prayers by the lawgiver, at least some that a hazlani follower might know?

thanks :)

-herkles
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: HellsPanda on October 17, 2012, 02:08:09 PM
Lots of usefull stuff.

Every prayer is pretty much the same, and in Vaasi

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=12803.0 (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=12803.0)
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: herkles on October 19, 2012, 12:15:23 AM
Lots of usefull stuff.

Every prayer is pretty much the same, and in Vaasi

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=12803.0 (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=12803.0)

that is useful, :) and i have been using it. but still having some example prayers would be good. *nods*

also another question! there are 5 holy books of the Lawgiver have they ever been written up?
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: HellsPanda on October 19, 2012, 01:02:40 AM
No, when we had active Lawgivers some of the others where talking with H and Mac about getting them written, but we had to write them. And I don't think anyone ever got very far.
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: DM Stygian Witch on October 19, 2012, 01:04:49 AM
I would love to see this moving forward again.
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: herkles on October 21, 2012, 11:13:54 PM
Having the holy books written up would be awesome, I can give it a try later, though I am not as knoweledgable as the rest in the LG's faith/church.

as the Lawgiver is LE, how would the church regard conjuring devils, LE outsiders?

Also since I couldn't find any prayers on the forums, I did find some warhammer 40k prayers and re-worded them and put them below.


a litany

Glory to you, O' Great Lawgiver
for your strict gudiance

Glory to you, O' Great Lawgiver
for your holy wisdom

Glory to you, O' Great Lawgiver
for your eternal strength

Glory to you, O' Great Lawgiver
for your all seeing vision

Glory to you, O' Great Lawgiver
for your unending rule

Hail to the Lawgiver
for you are the Lord and Master

Glory to you, O' Great Lawgiver
for without you
we are nothing

___

another prayer

O' Great Lawgiver
Have mercy upon us, miserable unworthies that we are
O Great deliever of Order; protect us from Mytteri
as we obey your commands.

profession of faith

with all my strength
with all my will
with every fiber of my soul
I am obdient to the Law
of the Lawgiver


Oath of Obidence

O Holy Iron Tyrant
I am loyal to thee
do with me as you please
for my faith is absolute

War prayer

Great Iron tyrant,
Delieve us from Mytteri
and guide my weapon
in your holy service

For forgiveness/sins

Blessed Lawgiver,
humbly forgive your servant for his sins
and by my penance will I cleanse myself
and do obey
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: HellsPanda on October 22, 2012, 01:02:18 AM
I forgot about this one by failed.bard, but it might need some work

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=17951.0 (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=17951.0)
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: herkles on October 22, 2012, 09:37:48 PM
Here is some work I did today on two of the five books, the black trials and crimson faith. the infromation was from Gazetter IV so this is the first attempt at trying to write up what was unwritten  :mrgreen:


The Black Trials
Spoiler: show

In the beginning there was chaos, darkness, but the Lawgiver came and the Lawgiver made order from whence there was chaos. The first world, the pure world was this world the great Lawgiver madeout of chaos. Torverden was created by the Lawgiver over the course of three days. On the first day, the Lawgiver created the earth itself; on the second, He created the life upon it, including the first men and women; on the third, He created the Heavens, to provide Him a throne from which to oversee his creation.

From this throne, the Lawgiver selected one man, who stood apart from the rest for his strength of purpose and sense of justice, to be His intermediary and the executor of His Divine Will. He named this man Førstregel(“First Ruler”), then whispered His own Holy Name into Førstregel's ear. Upon hearing the Lawgiver's Name, Førstregel became enlightened.

Førstregel recorded his new under-standing of the Lawgiver and His Will into two holy texts called The Truth of Iron and The Fetters of Bronze. The Lawgiver made Førstregel king over the First People and head of the Church,  and Torverden was a paradise of unity and law.

However this was not to last, the son of  Førstregel   Tilbyde was to succede but his brothers were poisoned by Mytteri.

Mytteri polluted their minds with teach-ings of rebellion and disobedience. They polluted their  souls  with  offerings  to  servile  spirits  and imaginary gods. They polluted their bodies with
men, women and the beasts of the field. Thus was purity forever forsaken.

The First People descended into  degeneracy  and  iniquity,  culminating  in Tilbyde's  murder and sacrifice to the false god Mytteri. With this tragic crime, the Lawgiver passed the First Judgment, separating lands and nations, confounding speech, and cursing the First People with fallen forms to match their fallen souls.

In doing so, He proclaimed, “I have passed Judgment for  the  first  time.  It  shall  happen  twice  more. Afterward shall come an end.”

Those who reached above themselves were cursed with stunted forms and became dwarves, gnomes and halflings.

Those who lent a ready ear to false doctrines and lacked the strength to resist were cursed with pointed ears and delicate frames, becoming elves.

The truly wicked were given the hideous forms of goblinkind.

Those who became humans as we know them today were considered the closest to righteousness. They lost some of the beauty and strength of the First People, but were not cursed with obvious disfigurements.

The world was transformed from Torverden to Faldverden(fallen world). Faldverden persisted in strife for thousands of years, with the scattered pockets of the Church trying desperately to restore order, stability and adherence to the Lawgiver's doctrines to the many nations. With the Church weakened and disunited, this struggle proved impossible. Save for a few isolated pockets, the world remained faithless and chaotic.

Then came the Højplads who restored faith and order was restored to some of the fallen world. But the other realms were degenerate and they kept worshiping Mytteri who whispered lies and rebbellion in their ears.  As the Lawgiver looked acrosed the land, he punished the disbelievers and brought Nova Vaasa into Falskverden(fallen world)

The Crimson Faith
Spoiler: show


The Lawgiver created the heavens and all the cosmos. He gave order to all the realms of the universe. He made order where there was chaos. However, Mytteri saw this and rebeled against what is right and good in the universe. He whispers lies and temptations, anachy and disobedience to man and provkes them to disobey the Lawgiver.  He fights the Lawgiver until the end of the world when all is brought low and the final judgment is rendered.

And when a man dies he is brought before the Lawgiver, in his Iron throne and he is judged. And from this if he is found worthy he is sent to the Iron Paradise. From this he shall serve willingly, in grandure and splendure.

Yet, the Lawgiver wants what is good. And what is good is obidence. Those who are disobedent to his divine law are punished for their crimes in the torment that is the Hell of slaves. Here they are tortured for their crimes in the realm of torment of bleak stone under the burning red sky. It is here that the Lawgiver sends his holy beings to torment them while vermin constently run below ones feet.

From the Lawgiver he gave the law, and the law hence is divine,
from thus comes Lords and masters to be obeyed.
The law of kings is divine for it is the will of the Lawgiver
He holds the divine mandate
but if such a time comes
when the one with the mandate
falls to the whisper lies of Mytteri
then may the holy repersentive of the Lawgiver
cast him out
and purge the unclean
so that the divine and holy law
may be once again pure.
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: Bluebomber4evr on October 23, 2012, 01:41:46 PM
You mean Gazetteer V, right? Gaz IV didn't have anything about the Lawgiver.
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: herkles on October 23, 2012, 01:43:54 PM
You mean Gazetteer V, right? Gaz IV didn't have anything about the Lawgiver.

yea, my bad >.> :oops:
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: herkles on October 24, 2012, 11:36:59 AM
Could the people more knowledgable of the Lawgiver lore critique the two books? I am working on the proverbs one, though the one that I think is the most difficult are the first and second; the ones on governance and laws./punishments
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: herkles on October 26, 2012, 09:02:11 PM
Here is the book of Stone, the various proverbs and what not. feed back and constructive critisim for the books will be helpful. It would be good for this faith to have its holy texts completed and usable *nods*

The book of stone
Spoiler: show

 :arrow: To question is to doubt
 :arrow: without the Lawgiver there is nothing
 :arrow: They that are bound must obey.
 :arrow: faith is obedience
 :arrow: Obedience is the mother of happiness.
 :arrow: Faith is the sturdiest armor
 :arrow: innocence proves knowthing
 :arrow: it is better to die for the Lawgiver then to live for yourself.
 :arrow: Prayer cleanses the soul, pain cleanses the body
 :arrow: there is nothing to fear but the Lawgiver
 :arrow: Rebellion is treason
 :arrow: treason is sinful
 :arrow: cease and repent
 :arrow: damnation is eternal
 :arrow: flesh is the mirror of the soul
 :arrow: life is a prison, death is a release
 :arrow: only in death does duty end
 :arrow: faith in the Lawgiver is its own reward
 :arrow: Faith is the sturdiest armour. Hatred the surest weapon.
 :arrow: the blood of matyrs is the seed of faith
 :arrow: heresy grows from idleness
 :arrow: work earns salvation
 :arrow: seek reward in service alone
 :arrow: if you can not speak well of your master, be silient
 :arrow: excuses are the refuge of the weak
 :arrow: those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
 :arrow: If you’re irresponsible to the state, then you’re irresponsible with the Iron Tyrant and you will be judged.
 :arrow: There is only the Lawgiver and he is our shield and protector
 :arrow: Happiness stems only from Duty
 :arrow: A good soldier obeys without question. A good officer commands without doubt.
 :arrow: Even a man with nothing can still have faith
 :arrow: Doubt is the open gate through which slips the most fatal of enemies.
 :arrow: Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: herkles on October 29, 2012, 10:57:58 AM
Here is a draft of the idea of the truth of iron, not sure how this one is but it is after all a draft. again feed back is welcome :)

The Truth of Iron

Spoiler: show
1. Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.  For the kings and lords have been granted their authority by the Lawgiver.

2.Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what the Lawgiver has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

3.For rulers are not a terror to lawful conduct, but to bad. Then obey the law, and you will receive his approval,

4.for he is Lawgiver's servant for your good. But if you go against the Laws, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of The Lawgiver to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer

5. But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when Lawgiver's righteous judgment will be revealed.

6. For he will render to every man according to his works:

7.to those who do good by obidence to his law; He shall reward them in the Iron Paradise;

8.but for those who are rebbellious and do not obey the truth, but obey Mytteri and wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

9.There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who disobeys the Law and follows Mytteri

10.but glory and honor and peace for every one who obeys the Law.

11.herefore one must be subject, not only to avoid Lawgiver's wrath but also for the sake of faith.

12All who have sinned without following the lawgiver's will also suffer damnation, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

13.All those who follow the Lawgiver are to obey the law, no matter your station
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: herkles on November 01, 2012, 02:34:01 PM
Any feedback or critisim upon my book ideas? Not sure what to do for the 2nd book though, the one with laws and punishements.
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: herkles on November 14, 2012, 11:06:40 AM
Any feedback or critisim upon my book ideas? Not sure what to do for the 2nd book though, the one with laws and punishements.

No feedback at all?  :P
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: CuddleGutz on November 14, 2012, 11:48:14 AM
My only feedback is that I'm not sure we should go pigeonholing the church of the Lawgiver directly into Chrtisian theology (http://biblia.com/bible/nrsv/Ro2.1-16). This is bound to lead to conflicts and inconsistencies when we take unadulterated portions of one religious text and just replace the names.
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: Bluebomber4evr on November 14, 2012, 12:16:00 PM
My only feedback is that I'm not sure we should go pigeonholing the church of the Lawgiver directly into Chrtisian theology (http://biblia.com/bible/nrsv/Ro2.1-16). This is bound to lead to conflicts and inconsistencies when we take unadulterated portions of one religious text and just replace the names.
Right. The Lawgiver religion shouldn't be anything remotely resembling Christianity.
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: herkles on November 14, 2012, 12:32:25 PM
My only feedback is that I'm not sure we should go pigeonholing the church of the Lawgiver directly into Chrtisian theology (http://biblia.com/bible/nrsv/Ro2.1-16). This is bound to lead to conflicts and inconsistencies when we take unadulterated portions of one religious text and just replace the names.

Well, I used it as a basis as it is a religious text >.> I did not want to pidgeon hole the Lawgivers into christian theology, I did use a bit from there for the Judgement stuff as that is a key part of the theology from what I have read in the book on the Lawgiver, as was the whole original sin that arose from when the Lawgiver gave the first Judgement, hence demihumans.

The truth of iron and  The Fetters of Bronze are the hardest too do as they are about what is a good governement and a good person, with the fetters of bronze being about Laws and punishments. Those two are the most difficult to write for, and I don't mean to pidgion hole the Lawgivers into chrisitanity. I use peices from it of what does fit the Lawgiver as it does have an evil catholic churchesque vibe to me; though I also see parrells with chinese legalism and persian zororastrinism.

also I realized I didn't write up the  The Fetters of Bronze
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: Truth_USMC on June 24, 2016, 03:17:30 PM
Just out of curiosity, what would a Lawful Neutral follower look like.  Obviously Lawful Evil is the main alignment but it says Lawful Neutral exists as well
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: EO on June 24, 2016, 03:31:42 PM
Just out of curiosity, what would a Lawful Neutral follower look like.  Obviously Lawful Evil is the main alignment but it says Lawful Neutral exists as well

The vast majority of followers are likely LN since they're commoners. The faith is very oriented towards following rulers, and a very strict justice system.
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: Truth_USMC on June 24, 2016, 05:15:05 PM
Is a lawful neutral cleric a realistic character option?
Title: Re: Lawgiver questions
Post by: Telkar on June 24, 2016, 05:22:11 PM
Yep. Clerics follow the one step alignment rule. You can take one step away from the god's alignment on the good-evil axis or lawful-chaotic axis.

If you ask me, LN is a more interesting option too. Gives you something to work with.