Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Heretic on October 16, 2010, 03:51:00 PM

Title: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Heretic on October 16, 2010, 03:51:00 PM
Inspired by this thread (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=21703.0), and many similar ones where some players tend to immediately kill an idea and doomsay it before it sees light; allow me to quote to you a passage from a book I read, that I now consider a bible in what I do for work, I wish I had read and sinked this before, when I remember I was one of the vocal minorities whining, or complaining, because what I thought was feedback, wasn't really good feedback (despite if I was probably right most of the times), but completely inconsiderate criticism.

To some, this post will come down as condescending, patronizing, or else; I am sorry if it feels like that to you, but I feel its important to post, for the minority of the perceived as whiners out there (truly, to those that present inconsiderate negative feedback - and often) to see how the staff feels when you doomsay what the creatives vonlunteers try to do behind the scenes - for you.

Chapter 19   "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative" , from "The Art of Client Service"

(http://artofclientservice.com/public/images/cover_large.jpg)


My colleagues and I used to love to present to one particular client.

He was a very senior, very veteran, very smart guy. Whenever we would present, he would listen with great concentration. He would rarely interrupt.; instead, he would let us go through all the concepts and options we had prepared for his review. When we were done, he would stand up and address us. We presented to him many times, but his initial response would always go something like this: "First, I want to thank all of you for your hard work. Its clear from the presentation that you put tremendous amount of thought and effort into the assignment, and I appreciate that. And there are some terrific ads on the table. Now, lets go through each of the concepts one by one so I can give you feedback".

Sometimes, the input was minor; most of the time it was significant and as a result, we had to re-concept. No one ever complained; creative people loved this client, and would do anything for him. We did work for this client that was the best the agency could do. What was this client's secret?

It was simple. No matter what we presented, no matter how great, how good or how average it was, this client invariably expressed respect for the work and the people who made it. That was a great lesson for me. In my early days as an account person, I usually ran roughsod over creative people and their work. Writers and art directors would show me concepts, and I'd immediately say what was wrong with them. It didn't matter that I might be right; I was serving up the input wrong, and creative people simply turned me out.

I didn't understand my job was to improve the work, not to approve it.

I also didn't respect what it takes to do great creative. What it takes is enormous emotional commitment. When writers or art directors show their work, they are sharing a piece of themselves. They have sweated those ideas to life, and they know they are only as good as their last idea. If you don't respect that -- and in the beggining, I didn't -- but I learned --- you have no hope of helping to make work better.

You can't go about this way I used to, by launching in with a salvo of criticism. There's a better way to provide feedback. For example, if you're looking at a range of ideas, and some are killers, some have potential and some need to be killed, start with the killer ideas. Acknowledge them, and why.

Then with the ideas that have potential, start with what is right about them. Praise what is working. Then talk about what's not working and why. Suggest how these ideas can be made better. Tackle the ideas that deserve early death last. Even here, with ideas you think are marginal at best, there probably is something you like about each off them. Find one thing and acknowledge it before explaining why you think the ideas should be abandoned in favor of the stronger ones.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Aran on October 16, 2010, 04:08:49 PM
funny enough  this piece of advice have very much value in every way of life.

In upper and middle management it is vital to getting the best out of the people you are responsible for (sparring not judging)

in contact with friends and family it is respect for ideas that isnt your own

thumbs up Heretic  :D

Aran/Arakor/Jon
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: DM Nocturne on October 16, 2010, 05:56:23 PM
Emotional Intelligence certainly isn't a new topic in management and leadership theory, yet most people don't even know about it.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: dutchy on October 16, 2010, 06:11:40 PM
you still have a huge ego no matter what book you read big H, flaming someones work or trashing it or how ever it is called is alot easyer then to come up with either a better idea or a improvement on the idea.

people like to be right we like to be smart we like to be top dog and we like to be apreciated for what we do or say.

now we all have the first ones every single human on the planet  but the last one the (we like to be apreciated for what we do or say) is often forgotten, people see it as a given that others should listen doesnt work like that, always and i mean ALWAYS think of on how you would feel and think if you stood in the shoes of the other person, would you react the same? would you like the reaction or dislike it?
when you are able to do that you can see both sides of a single coin.
benefits of seeing both sides is simple   you understand the other party better and make your points come across better also you keep yourself in check to not say things that you shouldnt say.

ps/ i know 100% what i said in the other topic and i still stick with it but on the other side i see that its a celebration thing and that the team does its best to make it so.
pps/ big H you are more wrong then you are right but no worries i wont tell anybody.  :lol:
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Minstrel on October 16, 2010, 07:59:50 PM
"Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"

Am I the only person who thinks that that sentence is horrible English?

Respect what it takes to be greatly creative, yes.

Respect what it takes to have great creativity, fine.

Respect what it takes to do great things, fine.

...

Oh, but the article itself is interesting and has valid points.

That I just completely ignored by slating the minor bad point then glazing over the good part. Yay!

Maybe I'm wrong. I've just never heard 'Creative' used as something you 'Do', rather as something you 'Be'.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Heretic on October 16, 2010, 08:03:34 PM
Its advertisement/marketing agency jargon. "To do great creative" is to come up with great ideas, concepts in advertisement.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Minstrel on October 16, 2010, 08:09:47 PM
Its advertisement/marketing agency jargon. "To do great creative" is to come up with great ideas, concepts in advertisement.
Learn something new every day.

Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Jay on October 17, 2010, 03:28:17 AM
I'm sorry, you make a valid point but i still say respect is a two-way street. And if you want it you have to give it as well.
I respect the Dev team, and the hard work the GM's put into this server. But all the hard work in the world doesn't give them a right to dismiss or mock me when i raise a complaint, though admittedly the responsibility is on my shoulders to raise my issue in a mature, rational and polite manner. (And as you said, if possable suggest something contructive.)
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Heretic on October 17, 2010, 03:56:47 AM
I'm sorry, you make a valid point but i still say respect is a two-way street. And if you want it you have to give it as well.
I respect the Dev team, and the hard work the GM's put into this server. But all the hard work in the world doesn't give them a right to dismiss or mock me when i raise a complaint, though admittedly the responsibility is on my shoulders to raise my issue in a mature, rational and polite manner. (And as you said, if possable suggest something contructive.)

Well, I lost patience along the way for those who lack respect and I wont walk on eggshells to disrespect in return, because that sort of way of providing "feedback" provokes just those feelings. If anything, it makes you understand how it feels that to be disrespected. So show some consideration of the above and you will get respect from me - I have no respect for those who show no consideration, or those who always fall to negativity, failing to see the positives of a good heartened idea.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Jay on October 17, 2010, 05:58:34 AM
I'm sorry, you make a valid point but i still say respect is a two-way street. And if you want it you have to give it as well.
I respect the Dev team, and the hard work the GM's put into this server. But all the hard work in the world doesn't give them a right to dismiss or mock me when i raise a complaint, though admittedly the responsibility is on my shoulders to raise my issue in a mature, rational and polite manner. (And as you said, if possable suggest something contructive.)

Well, I lost patience along the way for those who lack respect and I wont walk on eggshells to disrespect in return, because that sort of way of providing "feedback" provokes just those feelings. If anything, it makes you understand how it feels that to be disrespected. So show some consideration of the above and you will get respect from me - I have no respect for those who show no consideration, or those who always fall to negativity, failing to see the positives of a good heartened idea.

So where would we draw the line at this? How easy is it to be simply ignored because you lack the eloquence to construct a valid argument?
(I'll use an example completely randomised, at the risk of offending anyone... unless you happen to be running a bizarre GM encounter right now.)
Lets say GM.. Cake. GM Cake decided to run a event with killer kittens, he thinks this is the -best- idea ever! Corners someone (player... Hippo) in the Vamp crypts and spams them with kittens until they die. Has the kittens drag the body (and equipment) to the surface so it's easily found.
Hippo is mad, hippo does not like that his grind was interrupted with kittens! Hippo hates kittens. So post on the forums about it.
What kind of response would you say is appropriate to express his displeasure at GM Cake?
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: DM Tarokka on October 17, 2010, 06:23:30 AM
Why kittens? :)
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Jay on October 17, 2010, 06:53:31 AM
Why kittens? :)
I needed an example that would not be a referance to any former plots run/running. I thought kittens would be a safe bet.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Badelaire on October 17, 2010, 06:55:37 AM
Why kittens? :)

Because they're the ones you least expect of being capable of true evils......
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: DM Tarokka on October 17, 2010, 06:59:12 AM
Lol I actually use kittens all the time to scare people :)

But I'm insane, we all know it!
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Minstrel on October 17, 2010, 07:20:38 AM
So where would we draw the line at this? How easy is it to be simply ignored because you lack the eloquence to construct a valid argument?
(I'll use an example completely randomised, at the risk of offending anyone... unless you happen to be running a bizarre GM encounter right now.)
Lets say GM.. Cake. GM Cake decided to run a event with killer kittens, he thinks this is the -best- idea ever! Corners someone (player... Hippo) in the Vamp crypts and spams them with kittens until they die. Has the kittens drag the body (and equipment) to the surface so it's easily found.
Hippo is mad, hippo does not like that his grind was interrupted with kittens! Hippo hates kittens.  So post on the forums about it.
What kind of response would you say is appropriate to express his displeasure at GM Cake?

Here's where he went wrong:

Quote
So post on the forums about it.

'Criticism, complaints and feedback' that are generally negative that are posted on open forums are treated a lot differently (and a lot less seriously) to those submitted to the DM's directly, or through the CC. They tend to blow things out of proportion and raise people against the DM team as if it's some kind of revolution. Then you start having unrelated people chip in, people start twisting words, and nothing the DM's do about the issue short of keelhauling the offending DM and his family members will suffice any more. The thread stops being about one issue and becomes a bubbling rage pot of issues that should have been bought up when they were relevant instead of held back by people.

It's the difference between heading to your boss's boss and informing them that your manager has goofed up on something that's majorly annoyed and screwed you up, and standing in the workspace telling everyone who will listen about the management being bastards as loudly as you can, hence bringing in people who have little to nothing to do with the issue.

Whilst one complaint might be passed over and considered to just be a ranting player, when more start to pile up, eyebrows will be raised at the DM's behaviour, and then appropriate stuff will be done.

If you're worried about coming off as a whiner, post it through the CC with the request to be anonymous. Some people have done that, and the anonymity has been kept.

Basically, if you want any player/DM issue to get to the DM's and be considered seriously, send it straight to them, seriously. We have discussion/complaint forums, but they're generally best for systems and things involving development, major plots and the world at large, rather than player or DM behaviour.


As for the thread this thread was about, it did descend into nitpicking, whining, and more negativity than Empowered Energy Drain. The staff are usually in a position where people hammer on them with unreasonable arguments, twist their words against them and paint them as evil bastards because they can't so much 'fight back', since they're expected to remain calm and civil and reasonable, and not let things degrade into flame wars. We have to do a lot of walking on eggshells whilst people pelt us with eggs, since the slightest remark that can be taken negatively, WILL be taken horribly by certain people, and used as further ammunition against us.

That's the situation with forum threads. But with PM'ed conversations that are private, things tend to be a lot more controlled, and we can get through the discussion without having to fend off people who have popped up solely to criticize.

The result of the ranting in the forum thread has only served to cripple DM morale pretty bad, and likely mean less of them logging on when they otherwise would.

The result of a few PM's we've been sent has lead to things like allowing faction members to make a new PC that will instantly be involved in the faction for that week to allow for recruiting and faction RP in Barovia, and MPC's being able to create a low level monster for the event. It might not be much, but we're trying to make folks happy.

Go figure.

/end semi-ranting
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Aahz on October 17, 2010, 09:50:35 AM
I believe that people try to express their opinions in the most clear, factual, and eloquent, way they can at the time. The degree of success they achieve is vastly variable however. The worst writer in the world can sometimes succeed brilliantly in communicating an idea and the best writer can fail horribly.

I would point out that not all ideas actually have much leeway to point out positive alternatives for. For an example from my own experience, the risk of corpse impairment on death. I think its a bad idea. I have heard all the reasons that other people like it and I still think its a bad idea, it has no merit, and should just be sent away in shame. Therefore it's not at all likely you are going to ever hear anything positive from me about it. Contrast this with my view of the risk of coming back as a Zombie. I think the idea has potential and I have suggested ways to tweak it here and there so that it enhances the setting without being overly frustrating.  See the difference? 

You can either try to hear and understand someones reasoning on things or dismiss, belittle, mock, or Ignore them. If you dismiss and ignore player A's opinion on Issue Y because you did not like what they had to say on issue X, that is not productive either. To paraphrase another long standing corporate saying "there is no such thing as bad feedback".

In my neck of the world you do not get praise just for effort, there must be favorable results. Efforts that fail are a tool of learning, you try something, it fails, you keep trying new things until you produce something of value, then you get your rewards and praise.

I learned that "Respect is not deserved, it is earned" and the best way to earn respect is in how you treat others. There is a night and day difference in hating a person's idea and hating the person. It can be terribly complicated. Generally people tend to see criticisms of their ideas and work as criticisms of themselves and it can be almost impossible to actually tell sometimes too, so much of what is said gets its meaning from how it was said and you just can't capture that in a written forum like this. People try to communicate the best way that can at the time, sometimes they express their ideas well sometimes not so well. However, I believe ideas should be expressed regardless. Less communication never solves anything, only more will.


Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: dutchy on October 17, 2010, 10:02:54 AM
Yup atleast it is something minstrel.

oh heretic heretic heretic, to me what you wrote shows you are demoralised it is also the main reason you do not login and dm.
also you yes you i am targetting you atm have the awesome ability to disregard 85% of the playerbase as whiners or people that have potential drama so you avoid 85% of the player base.
i think it is safe to say that towards or concerning the server  you are depressed well thats the mood type that fits you best concerning this all.
these posts are great truly are but i said this befor you can not truly cant constantly have a go at the player base at most times you are even mean, in my own blunt way i would discribe it as simply beeing a dick with the replies, now i got a funny bone and often see trough it but alot of players do not and you offend them they even bark louder you bark back and BAM more negativity and drama.
its a spiral action reaction      and you know you are better then that and above that.

feeling me darkness? :D
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Aran on October 17, 2010, 10:54:51 AM
In general any DM put them selves up as a target and a workhorse  .................For US

it is one of the most unthankfull jobs at times because a large proportion that get good experiences take it for granted, and any that feel slighted will give feedback.


These people are human too (hmm   i guess a few of them have taken big DP hits in real life :mrgreen:) and it is fully understandable they react thus.


this thread sort of proves some of what Heretic said in it self.

everyone feels its a free hit to say something about an event or a DM.

but if said DM give back they "disregards the playerbas" or "dont give shit"


The CC and DM's role is to listen/read/experience Feedback, and make judgement upon that, thats what we have chosen them for (the CC) and for DM's  thats the ones that use their time to give us the best experience.


they listen
they decide

if ya dont agree choose different CC members thats how democracy works  8)

come on  cut them some slack, and play along

Aran/Arakor/Jon
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: EO on October 17, 2010, 11:16:50 AM
Quote
oh heretic heretic heretic, to me what you wrote shows you are demoralised it is also the main reason you do not login and dm.

We've lost a good number of DMs to those same reasons. I'd say that two thirds of the DMs we lose, either during apprenticeship or later on is because of morale. People complain that they want more DMs, but with a negative attitude and complaints about specific DMs being posted openly so that everyone can punch on the person, no wonder they don't last.

What Minstrel said is spot on; if you have concerns about a DM, DMing style or anything, don't make an open post about it, use the actual proper communication channels. As a manager, I have to give criticism or warn employees at times about their behaviour or their actions and I'd never ever do it publically because you just don't do that. It's a total lack of respect. I always thought that this was granted and everyone knew it, but I guess not.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Jotem on October 17, 2010, 11:57:16 AM
There are valid points all 'round.

Its demoralising to try and instill fear, build up dynamics around, ease into a plot, bring consequences to a charachter and to have them ignore it, not accept it, dismiss it for wich'ever reason.
As a DM its our job to insure our -Guests- on this great server have the best gameplay we can offer without chasing our own tail to much and bending to player demands.
Ofcourse, we have all been players on the Dm Client, we understant that there is no better DM interaction than one that furthers -your own- story, enhancing it and pushing it forwards.
But in return you must understand this is Ravenloft, fear, insecurity, horror, its been said millions of times in millions of threads, this all revolves around RolePlay the good, the bad, the ugly.
From ritualistic offerings, the rightious standing against the perills of the night, curling up beside a fire side with a Tsuika and telling tale's by the fireside...but as dm's, we must also bring the setting to you, wich sometimes hits closer to home.
Silly choises cannot be rewarded by a slap on the wrist and a pat on the head, if you want to live and breathe Ravenloft and take the bad with the good, consequences can truely enhance your experience as it shapes charachters and opens a lot more doors for Players.

As for open complaints of the Team, ofcourse, we are only human.
If there are issue's with any member of the team, we are all friendly people in general, a simple PM can lighten the mood without putting the 'Dumbass' hat on the Team member and dropping them to the wolves.
Ofcourse its natural to vent you concerns and frustrations, and the more that listen lets it vent swifter, but at the expence of others?

My views on the matter, and must we debate on, or can we just RolePlay?
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Heretic on October 17, 2010, 01:11:47 PM
this thread sort of proves some of what Heretic said in it self.

everyone feels its a free hit to say something about an event or a DM.

but if said DM give back they "disregards the playerbas" or "dont give shit"


The CC and DM's role is to listen/read/experience Feedback, and make judgement upon that, thats what we have chosen them for (the CC) and for DM's  thats the ones that use their time to give us the best experience.

I think you are catching on here. Simply put, and I speak for most DM's; we are tired of being punched on by kids with a strong sense of entitlement. I will punch you back. The power lies with you to just show some consideration for the staff, dev. DMs and CC, it will be returned to you once you start showing consideration in the way you behave in your posting when someone gives of their free time to bring an idea forth.

Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: DM Tarokka on October 17, 2010, 01:29:19 PM
Lol I actually use kittens all the time to scare people :)

But I'm insane, we all know it!

Let's start from this again? How insane is Tarokka? Open poll!
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: dutchy on October 17, 2010, 01:31:27 PM
this thread sort of proves some of what Heretic said in it self.

everyone feels its a free hit to say something about an event or a DM.

but if said DM give back they "disregards the playerbas" or "dont give shit"


The CC and DM's role is to listen/read/experience Feedback, and make judgement upon that, thats what we have chosen them for (the CC) and for DM's  thats the ones that use their time to give us the best experience.

I think you are catching on here. Simply put, and I speak for most DM's; we are tired of being punched on by kids with a strong sense of entitlement. I will punch you back. The power lies with you to just show some consideration for the staff, dev. DMs and CC, it will be returned to you once you start showing consideration in the way you behave in your posting when someone gives of their free time to bring an idea forth.



true like some players do for the playerbase you do for the dms...but it does hmm make you come over like a bad person wich you aint you are just to friggin tired of all the problems and lack of respect as most of the dms do difrance is you got a mouth and you use it.
to counter this  the dm team should best delete or lock posts that go that route and say go to the CC and tell your concerns, but on the other side people might see it as a strict forim hand that theyl dislike.

i honestly think the dm team should tigthen the leash again players complain lock it or send a pm that they should go to the CC that way nothing gets published and respect lvls will atleast SEEM to stay normal and no one is the wiser beside the ones involved.

My last post here was not an attack btw  was from one guy to another and shoulda been a PM now that i reread it.

keep on opening that mouth but dont lower to the  level of the idiots ain worth it DM darkness   :lol:
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Heretic on October 17, 2010, 01:43:51 PM
this thread sort of proves some of what Heretic said in it self.

everyone feels its a free hit to say something about an event or a DM.

but if said DM give back they "disregards the playerbas" or "dont give shit"


The CC and DM's role is to listen/read/experience Feedback, and make judgement upon that, thats what we have chosen them for (the CC) and for DM's  thats the ones that use their time to give us the best experience.

I think you are catching on here. Simply put, and I speak for most DM's; we are tired of being punched on by kids with a strong sense of entitlement. I will punch you back. The power lies with you to just show some consideration for the staff, dev. DMs and CC, it will be returned to you once you start showing consideration in the way you behave in your posting when someone gives of their free time to bring an idea forth.



true like some players do for the playerbase you do for the dms...but it does hmm make you come over like a bad person wich you aint you are just to friggin tired of all the problems and lack of respect as most of the dms do difrance is you got a mouth and you use it.
to counter this  the dm team should best delete or lock posts that go that route and say go to the CC and tell your concerns, but on the other side people might see it as a strict forim hand that theyl dislike.

i honestly think the dm team should tigthen the leash again players complain lock it or send a pm that they should go to the CC that way nothing gets published and respect lvls will atleast SEEM to stay normal and no one is the wiser beside the ones involved.

My last post here was not an attack btw  was from one guy to another and shoulda been a PM now that i reread it.

keep on opening that mouth but dont lower to the  level of the idiots ain worth it DM darkness   :lol:

You are the only noob that can get away with that sort of post. Because you've come to me (in your own little noob way) over PM's like an adult to speak of whatever issue you have. You're the kind of guy I like to get drunk with. But seriously, slack on the whining, that destroys that image and makes you come off like a lil' girl with tresses, crying whlist holding an empty bottle of Heineken.

Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Telkar on October 17, 2010, 01:59:24 PM
Aren't there numerous threads that have been made about Player/DM etiquette like this? I feel like reminders like this keep popping up quite regularly, which tells me this method isn't working right. So the main message is usually not to "vent" negativity in public regarding some isolated incidents brought forth by DMs. Sometimes these things happen in topics where the topic's initial subject wasn't meant for such negativity. A way to prevent that is to take more control of the topic, and use that "off topic" smiley much more, and perhaps point to the CC instead. Sometimes the topics themselves are meant to be negative towards some individuals. Why can't DMs just create a sort of a quote stamp, with references to the various topics that address public venting like this one, and point to the list of DMs and CC for PMing, then lock the topic and done deal? Perhaps those who make such topics might explode, feeling grievously offended by it, and make matters worse that way, but to me personally, I think it might just be for the better. At least it would be worth the try.

Bring in a Nazi forum moderator.  :evillol:

Nah, really, just someone level headed who can follow through the possible policy I described above.  ;)

3 replies before I could post this, with one quote in the spirit of what I've thinking:

i honestly think the dm team should tigthen the leash again players complain lock it or send a pm that they should go to the CC that way nothing gets published and respect lvls will atleast SEEM to stay normal and no one is the wiser beside the ones involved.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: dutchy on October 17, 2010, 02:13:08 PM
this thread sort of proves some of what Heretic said in it self.

everyone feels its a free hit to say something about an event or a DM.

but if said DM give back they "disregards the playerbas" or "dont give shit"


The CC and DM's role is to listen/read/experience Feedback, and make judgement upon that, thats what we have chosen them for (the CC) and for DM's  thats the ones that use their time to give us the best experience.

I think you are catching on here. Simply put, and I speak for most DM's; we are tired of being punched on by kids with a strong sense of entitlement. I will punch you back. The power lies with you to just show some consideration for the staff, dev. DMs and CC, it will be returned to you once you start showing consideration in the way you behave in your posting when someone gives of their free time to bring an idea forth.



true like some players do for the playerbase you do for the dms...but it does hmm make you come over like a bad person wich you aint you are just to friggin tired of all the problems and lack of respect as most of the dms do difrance is you got a mouth and you use it.
to counter this  the dm team should best delete or lock posts that go that route and say go to the CC and tell your concerns, but on the other side people might see it as a strict forim hand that theyl dislike.

i honestly think the dm team should tigthen the leash again players complain lock it or send a pm that they should go to the CC that way nothing gets published and respect lvls will atleast SEEM to stay normal and no one is the wiser beside the ones involved.

My last post here was not an attack btw  was from one guy to another and shoulda been a PM now that i reread it.

keep on opening that mouth but dont lower to the  level of the idiots ain worth it DM darkness   :lol:

You are the only noob that can get away with that sort of post. Because you've come to me (in your own little noob way) over PM's like an adult to speak of whatever issue you have. You're the kind of guy I like to get drunk with. But seriously, slack on the whining, that destroys that image and makes you come off like a lil' girl with tresses, crying whlist holding an empty bottle of Heineken.



i know i can get away with it thats why i said it, i can be impulsive sorry for that,  and how do you know about jy dress......have you been looking trough my windows again at friday night after i had a few heinekens?
tsk tsk bad darknes bad bad bad.


Thnx telkar for the agreeing on the tighten the leash idea, in some case respect is given and some is earned the whole comunity is to lose atm we basicly can do alot  tha we want and get away with it  and say alot and get away with it while  it used to be a strict thing.  i honestly think a forum moderator that directs people more towards the CC will be usefull, cause it will get out of hand or it already has gotten out of hand depends on the eye of the beholder. :)
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Aran on October 17, 2010, 03:07:58 PM
so this is the time when we sit down together and down a few good dark Belgian beers  or Czech beers  (tsk tsk tsk  heineken)
and agree to get along eh  8)

Aran/Arakor/Jon
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: DM Tarokka on October 17, 2010, 03:19:35 PM
Also some good German weizen beer...
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Aahz on October 17, 2010, 03:55:33 PM
i honestly think the dm team should tigthen the leash again players complain lock it or send a pm that they should go to the CC that way nothing gets published and respect lvls will atleast SEEM to stay normal and no one is the wiser beside the ones involved.

In my experience secrecy never increases feelings of goodwill. That said, I think disagreements between players, or players and a DM should be a private matter.  Opinions on server policy and rules however, should always be discussed openly.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Soren / Zarathustra217 on October 17, 2010, 04:34:13 PM
I like the message of this topic and I agree to it, but I feel it should also be made clear that for the most part, we have a good, constructive discussion - it just doesn't claim that much attention as when it's not. Our five year development is an extensive example of how things have been gradually changed and tweaked in large part due to a good constructive communication process.

...

Oh, and speaking of - I feel the suggestion about keeping topics more on-topic is a good one.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Jay on October 18, 2010, 03:05:29 AM
Also some good German weizen beer...

I don't drink. And before anyone says it, i'm still not a paladin in real life. I'm a cynical, misanthropic curmudgeon... I just hide it well.

I think it's good we actually have this thread, because while you may get a lot of (Positive and negative) feedback as the GM team, but players don’t generally see the result of it because it’s usually kept behind PM’s (To prevent the aforementioned flaming/whining de-railed threads). The “GM’s don’t care” myth is perpetuated by this one-way silence with it only being broken on a one-on-one basis when a GM writes back in a PM to a person who actually takes the time to complain.

So, now to the constructive part of my post:

Is there a way you can make a “GM Post Only” thread for the GM’s and CC to post in with a “You said so we did” ethic?
So it’s like a notice board for feedback, it’s non-postable so it stops stupid arguments erupting and it gives people a bit of feedback as players so they don’t feel like they are pouring their words onto deaf ears.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Minstrel on October 18, 2010, 07:27:02 AM
Is there a way you can make a “GM Post Only” thread for the GM’s and CC to post in with a “You said so we did” ethic?
So it’s like a notice board for feedback, it’s non-postable so it stops stupid arguments erupting and it gives people a bit of feedback as players so they don’t feel like they are pouring their words onto deaf ears.

I think we kind of do that in the Announcements section. If you pay close attention to the change/update log, you'll often see changes that correspond to recent suggestions or feedback in the forums. It's just not made slap-in-the-face obvious.
Quote
I think it's good we actually have this thread, because while you may get a lot of (Positive and negative) feedback as the GM team, but players don’t generally see the result of it because it’s usually kept behind PM’s (To prevent the aforementioned flaming/whining de-railed threads). The “GM’s don’t care” myth is perpetuated by this one-way silence with it only being broken on a one-on-one basis when a GM writes back in a PM to a person who actually takes the time to complain.

We actually recieve a lot less complaints than you might expect, for whatever reasons. We've had issues where we had to address certain players in-game, and they tend to claim things like the CC not doing anything and the DM's ignoring them, whilst the grand total of posts to us they've submitted numbers zero.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Soren / Zarathustra217 on October 18, 2010, 09:21:22 AM
It would be somewhat unethical if we put whatever complaints there's been against a DM on public display. We don't do that with players either. But the mere fact that we do things like open polls or questionnaires to actively gather opinions should be evidence that we care about it and want to adjust to it - not to mention the Council, that's exactly for making sure communication isn't just one way (in either direction) and that you have someone to go to if you worry something is up.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Jay on October 18, 2010, 10:41:49 AM
It would be somewhat unethical if we put whatever complaints there's been against a DM on public display. We don't do that with players either. But the mere fact that we do things like open polls or questionnaires to actively gather opinions should be evidence that we care about it and want to adjust to it - not to mention the Council, that's exactly for making sure communication isn't just one way (in either direction) and that you have someone to go to if you worry something is up.

Sorry i suppose I wasn't being clear enough. Perhaps it would be better to refer to my earlier example.
Hippo (Thankfully) complains about GM Cake to the GM team/CC rather then in a lengthy forum rant. He gets a message back saying the matter is being "looked into" and no further feedback is forthcoming. As you said publicly slamming GM Cake (or Player Hippo) would not help anyone and not enhance the community at all. But you could announce something along the lines of.
"It's come to our attention that sometimes players don't want to have there characters involved in plots for whatever reason, we'd just like to remind our players that a polite message to the GM during the event can usually resolve these things. We as a GM team are sorry if you sometimes feel a little railroaded, that was not our intention. Don't be afraid to speak out at the time if you have a problem. We won't bite."
It shows that someone has said something, it shows there's been a discussion and it shows that you can get something constructive out of a complaint rather then just the proverbial "We're looking into it" which can feel like a brush off if you don't see any results from it.

I think what i'm trying to say is, you guys work very hard. But it can't always be us criticising/commending you. You need to give us a little feedback every now and then, It makes me sad that you feel like you can't do it becuse of the criticism you open yourselves to.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: 3Piece on October 20, 2010, 10:40:56 AM
Respect is indeed a two way street. You have to give it, to receive it. Not everyone is able to formulate opinions in a manner which qualifies as mature, polite, and by first showing what is positive about the event or topic on discussion. All to often it is a case of the one who is raising the complaint, thinking as though they are deserving of some sort of reward or owed something simply for choosing this server to RP in. They think with blinders on, only able to see the prize ahead of them which they feel they were denied wrongly. This is not always the case, even when it appears to be. Many players are quite possibly labeled as emo or a whiner simply because of such situations.

All it takes is taking a few steps back and looking at things from both points of view, open eyes, open minds, and understanding that these DM's who take so much of their time to provide for the player base, have feelings. They serve selflessly, giving players so much of their time, creativity, assistance, and more. For what in return? We are all human. We all make mistakes. We all need feedback that is constructive even if negative. The best experience example I can give, was after a session I actually enjoyed greatly, I got a short tell basically saying good RP. I would have been just as thrilled to have gotten one saying good RP with suggestions on how to improve. Feedback does not need to be long and detailed, it just needs to exist and not be censored.

When it comes to negative experiences, don't go to the forums to complain or flame the other person. That is the reason we have the CC members. Send one a PM explaining how you feel about it, why you feel it was negative. Don't then bash the other player or DM in tells. If something was wrong, it will be handled. Feedback is important when someone has been slighted, even if just to let that one who felt slighted know they were heard, the issue is being discussed, and handled. Even if all that is done is counseling the offender, ensure something is actually done. This ensures that the one who felt slighted, no matter the perceived compared to the actual degree of slight, is comforted in the knowledge that the incident is being or was handled. 

That said, even DM's make mistakes and censor even the best attempts at feedback. Censorship is wrong, no matter how you look at it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and has the right to express it. Just because it does not agree with how one DM feels on the matter, does not then give that DM the right to censor. As for Heretic's comment that he will punch back, good. You should feel able to stand up for yourself, defend your ideas or opinions. I'm not saying let's all post inflammatory posts, but this to is a two way road. Unless there is rude insulting and inappropriate language, there's no reason for censorship.

Kudos to the DM's who endure the bashing and continue to provide immersion, horror, macabre, fear, and so forth to this grand setting I've come to enjoy so much. Kudos to the players who already understand the points in this thread and maybe even my long rant, and kudos to those who learn something by reading this thread. Let's be patient with those who don't fit our idea of what is "right", and lead by example. Everyone starts out somewhere, and travels a long road which we all share at some point.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: High_Priestess_of_Tinsel on October 21, 2010, 01:12:21 PM
Inspired by this thread (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=21703.0), and many similar ones where some players tend to immediately kill an idea and doomsay it before it sees light.

I've just had my attention drawn to this thread and reading this first post, I feel obliged to say that if having a negative opinion concerning something and expressing such is 'doomsaying' or 'killing an idea' then I shall keep my thoughts, feelings and opinions to myself in future, be they positive or negative.
Aside from this one.
When negative feedback is given, something should be done to beget positive feedback in the future. It should not be ignored and forgotten as if the thoughts and concerns of those involved mattered nothing.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Anarcoplayba on October 21, 2010, 02:41:20 PM
Just read. Somewhat agreed. I'll try to keep my criticism in a respectful manner as I have always been trying to do (with more or less success).
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Iconoclast on October 21, 2010, 02:56:25 PM


Something that I teach my students when giving one another feedback, which I myself put into practice, is to also make a good habit of pointing out the positives. If someone gets into a bad habit of only pointing out things that they perceive as wrong, or negative, before you know it anytime the rest of the community sees that they've made a post, we're already either rolling our eyes since that person has earned such a reputation.

However, if folks also are in a good habit of pointing out regularly the positives, when they do point out some negatives, folks will respect their opinions more likely.

Similarly, whenever I sit down with a student to look over their writing, I point out several things that they've done well in their work, before putting some focus on areas for improvement.

Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: Vespertilio on October 21, 2010, 04:09:09 PM


Something that I teach my students when giving one another feedback, which I myself put into practice, is to also make a good habit of pointing out the positives. If someone gets into a bad habit of only pointing out things that they perceive as wrong, or negative, before you know it anytime the rest of the community sees that they've made a post, we're already either rolling our eyes since that person has earned such a reputation.

However, if folks also are in a good habit of pointing out regularly the positives, when they do point out some negatives, folks will respect their opinions more likely.

Similarly, whenever I sit down with a student to look over their writing, I point out several things that they've done well in their work, before putting some focus on areas for improvement.

I agree with this completely, and personally always try to come full circle after the constructive criticism, to reemphasize the positives, but not in a way which diminishes or negates the points I tried to make that might have been less than positive.  (Hoorae for raising a child without benefit of a handbook as the ultimate social experiment)

Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: EO on October 21, 2010, 06:13:45 PM
Quote
When negative feedback is given, something should be done to beget positive feedback in the future. It should not be ignored and forgotten as if the thoughts and concerns of those involved mattered nothing.

Negative should be avoided. Constructive should be encouraged.

Also, feedback is retroaction on something. You cannot give feedback for something you haven't used, that's called an opinion.

The response to that topic was formed of opinions, some favorable, some less, some constructive, some negative. However, a vast majority of the opinions were just negative and not constructive in anyway. I, and other developers, fortunately don't base our design decisions on opinions expressed by players, but rather by the constructive feedback that is given.
Title: Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
Post by: HellsPanda on October 21, 2010, 06:24:14 PM
Negative and constructive feedback aren't mutually exclusive.
Negative feedback can be constructive feedback, same as positive can be unconstructive.
but simply stating why something is wrong, and how it negativly affects me therefor it is bad
is both unconstructive and negative feedback