Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Aldarris on December 07, 2009, 06:38:08 PM

Title: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on December 07, 2009, 06:38:08 PM
Fear definitely needs a nice little makeover.  Right now a character under the effects of fear will either:

1) run, until AoO something and beginning to attack as if it were not feared

2) Run away for a time, then find a corner to stay in

3) "Quickly friends, we are under the effects of fear so let's run -TOWARDS- the danger!"

4) Literally just stand there, letting themselves be surrounded and hacked away at until dead.

Now, this is the description of the Fear spell which is different than it is in normal D&D:

Description: Affected creatures are consumed with mind-numbing fear that overrides all other actions. The affected creatures run away from all those they do not consider allies.

Taken from the D&D Wikki:

Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level:   Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components:    V, S, M
Casting time:    1 standard action
Range:    30 ft.
Area:    Cone-shaped burst
Duration:    1 round/level or 1 round; see text
Saving Throw:   Will partial
Spell Resistance:    Yes

An invisible cone of terror causes each living creature in the area to become panicked unless it succeeds on a Will save. If cornered, a panicked creature begins cowering. If the Will save succeeds, the creature is shaken for 1 round.


What being "panicked" entails:

A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

What being "frightened" (the effect you are under while under fear in NWN.  Click on the box and it says "Frightened") entails:

frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Fear is not the spell dominate person, and even if it were the PC under it's affects would not be taking self-destructing actions like purposefully running into corners, or standing there and letting themselves be killed.  Right now it's much more effective with that in mind.

The fact that once Feared, the player loses complete control over their character is CHEESY, if you read over the rules of the server.  Bioware didn't put much thought or consideration into ridiculous things like this when they made the game.

It would be much more fun to be able to RP the effects of fear, rather than sitting back and watching your character do ridiculous things to get themselves killed while you throw up your hands in aggravation.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: HellsPanda on December 07, 2009, 07:08:54 PM
probably isnt much that can be done, considering how Bioware programing was done

would need a far more detailed pathing system, and if you dont loose controll some people are likely to just ignore the fact and beat down what every feared them.

also this discussion came up twice a week during the time we had mummies in the ML crypts, considering how easy it is too protect against mind effecting spells, don't see it is worth the effort to change it. But thats just me
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Psyche on December 07, 2009, 07:24:01 PM
- For MPCs it's a valuable RP tool, is why?
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Pepchko on December 07, 2009, 07:51:26 PM
its a very useful spell. i use it often to capture Fear in the other player. i dont see the point of your post though, Fear can still be Rped out while the effect is in place, if there was no mechanic, and only had to rely on others RP, then we run the chance of people ignoring the spell completely. the spell is working fine, losing control of your character does generate fear oocly, so even if its not "Perfectly" according to the spell description in the handbook, it still is working as intended.

people tend to forget that Neverwinter Nights is a "real time" game engine. meaning that, what works for P&P will not always translate accurately in a game engine. there must be a compromise between the two. which in this case, i think we have.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Dhark on December 07, 2009, 07:53:28 PM
Fear may take many forms , the spell reflects that quite well , its just the lame description that needs altering.

Play CoC a bit and you'll be amazed at the myriad of forms fear can take.

Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Kendric98 on December 07, 2009, 07:54:38 PM
Myself i would prefer if it informed the player they were feared and it became there resonsibility at that point to rp the fear.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on December 07, 2009, 08:01:38 PM
No, losing control of your character creates frustration and aggravation...not fear.  Fear is not knowing what's going to happen.  Frustration is knowing what's going to happen, and having no ability to do anything about it.

Revise the spell.  If possible let the player control how the PC is going to run or flee, which makes much more sense.  Make sure that in the state, they cannot use spells, abilities, or any form of offense, and in that way it will work even better than it is now.  A character who is frightened or panicked is going to run from what's coming at them, especially if it's backed up with other nasty things.  They're going to flee, as per the spell's description, and common sense considering if afraid, you're going to be all about self-preservation and survival...not stand there and get killed, or lay down and die.

Maybe if you rolled a one, you'd be so overcome with fear that you'd -want- to die, but that's besides the point...
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Delete Me on December 07, 2009, 08:10:24 PM
I do not think that demanding the spell to be revised is going to help things.

I think the effect of fear is irritating to be in, because it usually results in death. However, thats just part of it..  You challenged something much bigger and badder than you, and were overcome with fear.  You ran, till you were pinned, and died.   Think of that effect as the morale system for players, hehe.

We get to take advantage of the ones that have no where else to run.. and.. well.. they get to take advantage of those of us, that have no where to run.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: LawfulJoe on December 07, 2009, 08:43:19 PM
Maybe we could add to it... some pop up texts while you lose control of your PC.

"Fear grips your soul, you lose control of your bowls and soil yourself"

"A yellow puddle pools at your feet as your mind is seized with fear like you have never known"

"MOMMY!"

as a few suggestions  :lol:
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: DM Nocturne on December 07, 2009, 09:02:37 PM
No, losing control of your character creates frustration and aggravation...not fear.  Fear is not knowing what's going to happen.  Frustration is knowing what's going to happen, and having no ability to do anything about it.

I wouldn't be so quick to say how players react 100% of the time. IMO frustration results from expecting to be able to do something casually and not being able to. Just don't expect to achieve anything when you're facing down something capable to affect you.

I don't think you should expect people to roleplay out how you predict them to, either. A number of times in the past people just didn't get it.

 :twocents:
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: shadymerchant on December 07, 2009, 10:36:55 PM
I've always thought the fear spell could be better implimented. While it is easy to protect against the spell itself, the aura can be problematic, especially in regards to alignment types and actually having the right protection. Once under the effect, it's pretty much game over, especially when you are being chased by an aura that will just retrigger the effect until death comes. Also, the whole running from hapless fear causing creature into twenty murderous enemies can be frustrating. I'd suggest something more random in the effect. Maybe you run, maybe you're paralyzed, or some other action that speaks of being terrified.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: puckwolf on December 07, 2009, 11:04:49 PM
So you'd be literally paralyzed with fear, interesting idea!
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Vespertilio on December 07, 2009, 11:24:22 PM
Another ravenloft set server used a system that allowed for such things as shaken where you would have decreased ab but still be able to decide if you wanted to fight or flight.  Utter fear led to paralysis where the pc was unable to move or react having been frozen with fear.  It was an interesting system with about four possible results/reactions to 'fear', very interesting system and certainly one which felt a bit more realistic than being feared and just running willy nilly into inevitably worse situations than the one that caused the fright to begin with.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: LoLJohnFerro on December 07, 2009, 11:51:09 PM
I think that it should allow partiail control over your char like you can choose what direction you run in and allow you to open and slam doors.
beacuse in which you run at the closed door then along a wall to a cornor and stay feared even if said creature is dead is quite annoying.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: ethinos on December 08, 2009, 02:57:19 AM
I do not think that demanding the spell to be revised is going to help things.

I think the effect of fear is irritating to be in, because it usually results in death. However, thats just part of it..  You challenged something much bigger and badder than you, and were overcome with fear.  You ran, till you were pinned, and died.   Think of that effect as the morale system for players, hehe.

We get to take advantage of the ones that have no where else to run.. and.. well.. they get to take advantage of those of us, that have no where to run.

I think I understand what Aldarris is talking about, and it is not the helplessness of Fear itself, but the stupidity of the game engine when engulfed with Fear. If you are above ground, you will flee usually in a straight line away from danger. This is not really an issue in a metagame sense and we can deal with it. However, when you are underground, like in the crypts before the mummies went on a permanent vacation, the amount of corners, walls, and other physical obstructions would often leave you stuck in a spot that your character was doomed to inhabit until enemy AoO's did them in. This is not reasonable, because your character wouldn't behave this way if it wasn't for the god-awful game engine pathfinding system. I'd rather have the character run as sensibly as possible towards the exit to remove themselves from harm's way.

I'd rather see a spell that automatically makes you flee from the immediate vicinity of the character as per the Fear spell already implemented (unless maybe a save caused you to freeze up as per a paralyze spell as mentioned, which would be interesting). After a certain (either random or predetermined) distance, the character again falls under your control but is unable to attack or cast spells (100% chance of failure), and really needs to find a place to recover from the fright, or simply high-tail back to town. This gives the user some control over roleplaying the Fear while being completely ineffective in a combative sense. To me, the lack of control, even towards a negative end, is horrible for me to contemplate.

We have this idea that we do not enforce roleplaying on another, but the standard Fear spell sort of enforces this (even if it is the game engine rather than any of the powers that be). Now, I have no idea how hard it will be to alter the spell, if even possible, but this is the only spell that completely frustrates me as a roleplayer, with maybe the exception of Confusion. And that is another topic for another day.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Zarathustra217 on December 08, 2009, 03:58:04 AM
Well, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with allowing more control to the player, but changing the spell to cause you to drop what you have in your hand will certainly make it much more powerful...
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: ThAnswr on December 08, 2009, 09:41:52 AM
In RL, people get paralyzed and do the most asinine things due to fear all the time.  It's the basis of the "deer in the headlights" look.  People watch moving trains come at them.  People watch moving cars come at them.  People also faint with fear.  The colorful description would be not knowing whether to "**** or go blind."  (See spolier)

Spoiler: show
sh*t or go blind


The idea that "everyone runs for safety when afraid" is, in my opinion, primarily based on one's desire for a spell change and not reality.  

If one wishes to see "fear" expressed in a real way in a fictitious land in a PW game, that fear would be expressed as fainting, freezing, running wildly OR running purposefully.  There would be no choice and would be based on the luck of the roll as none of us know what we do when faced with a pack of mummies.

Now that would be a spell change that reflects reality.  





 
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Minstrel on December 08, 2009, 10:39:40 AM
Most fear saves are Will-based.

Most will-based effects, Fear included, can be happily negated with a cheap Dream Catcher, PfE, Clarity Spell, you name it.

Also, Hold Person is a lower Spell level than Fear with comparable durations (Though Fear is AoE), and I'd rather be Feared than Held, since one of them lets me have some chance at running away.

The spell is fine, the ability is fine, and the effect is fine. Mind-effecting spells are so ridiculously easy to counter, I'm actually for -buffing- them (Nerfing Clarity and PfE). More Enchanters with Hold Spells would be a nice thing.



Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Emomina on December 08, 2009, 11:34:42 AM
Fear is nothing to be modified. It works just as intended. And this is coming from a player of epicly low will save characters.  Potion of Clarity, abber dream catcher,  scroll PfE, scroll of clarity.  Stock up on them for when the spell is not available in the party.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Bad_Bud on December 08, 2009, 02:05:39 PM
Most fear saves are Will-based.

Most will-based effects, Fear included, can be happily negated with a cheap Dream Catcher, PfE, Clarity Spell, you name it.

Also, Hold Person is a lower Spell level than Fear with comparable durations (Though Fear is AoE), and I'd rather be Feared than Held, since one of them lets me have some chance at running away.

The spell is fine, the ability is fine, and the effect is fine. Mind-effecting spells are so ridiculously easy to counter, I'm actually for -buffing- them (Nerfing Clarity and PfE). More Enchanters with Hold Spells would be a nice thing.





Noooo, high DC holds feel so... dirty when I use them.

But use them anyway I do!
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Rex on December 08, 2009, 02:31:33 PM
Fear is nothing to be modified. It works just as intended. And this is coming from a player of epicly low will save characters.  Potion of Clarity, abber dream catcher,  scroll PfE, scroll of clarity.  Stock up on them for when the spell is not available in the party.

Actually the NwN Fear works incorrectly.  Should look like this:

Fear
Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level:    Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components:    V, S, M
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    30 ft.
Area:    Cone-shaped burst
Duration:    1 round/level or 1 round; see text
Saving Throw:    Will partial
Spell Resistance:    Yes

An invisible cone of terror causes each living creature in the area to become panicked unless it succeeds on a Will save. If cornered, a panicked creature begins cowering. If the Will save succeeds, the creature is shaken for 1 round.
Material Component

Either the heart of a hen or a white feather.


Panicked = this:

A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a -2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened.

Cowering = this:  

The character is frozen in fear and can take no actions. A cowering character takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class and loses her Dexterity bonus (if any).

And of course shaken (not stirred) = this:

A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.  Frightened is Shaken but you run away......

So, I'm for more control, because I always found the NwN Ping Pong you into Bad Terrain until you are dead to be annoying, but I would also be for all the other stuff, Like dropping everything you are holding as well.

~Rex...  Order > Random ......


 
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Emomina on December 08, 2009, 02:44:28 PM
Quote
but I would also be for all the other stuff, Like dropping everything you are holding as well.


I would rather ping pong all day then having my stuff fall onto the ground.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Rex on December 08, 2009, 02:49:18 PM
And if you get wedged into a corner, all your hand held stuff is still on the ground, and you're dead, so what's the difference, other then, perhaps you can get away with a healthy respect of scary things?

~Rex ..... Story > Stuff.

Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on December 08, 2009, 03:29:44 PM
Quote
Another ravenloft set server used a system that allowed for such things as shaken where you would have decreased ab but still be able to decide if you wanted to fight or flight.  Utter fear led to paralysis where the pc was unable to move or react having been frozen with fear.  It was an interesting system with about four possible results/reactions to 'fear', very interesting system and certainly one which felt a bit more realistic than being feared and just running willy nilly into inevitably worse situations than the one that caused the fright to begin with.

All for this idea.   :thumbup:

And to compare a human being with a deer is just, well, asinine.  Guy's car stuck on train tracks, he's trying frantically to unbuckle his seatbelt and dive out of the car before it gets impaled.  A person watching a car come at them either has 1) a suicidal deathwish 2) realizes that the car is already on top of them and they have no chance to move.

This is, from a scientific viewpoint how a deer reacts to an oncoming car:

Quote
A deer decides to cross a road. It instinctively moves forward when it’s scared. So, it sees a car and decides to run. But it runs only forward. I have hit five of them, and they all have been moving forward when I hit them. It never occurs to them to stand still, or else turn and run back into the brush behind them. They see the trees across the road, and they imagine safety. They see a car coming, and they do not compare their speed with its speed. Fear = run forward: this is the limit of a deer’s response to a car. Headlights or not, a scared deer runs forward.

This is probably what you were referring to as the expression "Looking like a dear caught in headlights":

Quote
“To look like a deer in the headlights” is an American expression meaning “to look stunned and at a loss for words when asked an unexpected question or made the center of attention”

The fact is that it is the basis of human nature to try and survive.  To live.  That's why adrenaline kicks in when you're being chased by something big, or if you're in a fight.  There's that sense of self-preservation.

Sure, watching any horror movie I can think of people do things desperately trying to get away from the killer/creature (though not always the SMARTEST thing, considering they're afraid and not thinking clearly)

No player on a roleplay server should be forced to watch their character do things to get themselves killed instead of what the player would have had them do instead.  That's where the frustration comes in.

"I was forced to watch my character under the effects of fear run head long into five stronger enemies who hacked my character to death"

"My character just stood there while feared, not running away because of stupid game mechanics and let himself get surrounded and killed"

Title: Re: Fear
Post by: ethinos on December 08, 2009, 03:35:30 PM
I don't agree with dropping hand-held items, but the spell is not operating in a way that is similar to the PnP version, which we always seem to emulate. The fact that the spell can be countered is not a good argument for leaving it the way that it is, because that is not what we were trying to change.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: ThAnswr on December 08, 2009, 03:54:20 PM
And an armadillo jumps straight up when frightened and gets squashed.  I've hit one or two of those.  Could that be classified as a "scientific viewpoint" based on RL?   ;)

I think I'll sit back and observe this soon-to-be trainwreck from a distance that's "far enough to be  safe and close enough to feel the love that's about to bust out all over".   :mrgreen:

Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aahz on December 08, 2009, 03:59:35 PM
I swear they should use these game mechanic discussion threads for psychology training.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: DM Nocturne on December 08, 2009, 03:59:58 PM
I'm not convinced that allowing people to control their characters will result in them roleplaying the effects of Fear at all when it comes to PvP situations, instead they're likely just opting to keep fighting.

The aim I'm seeing is that you're trying to avoid characters standing still while getting beaten up or running into more enemies and getting beaten up. So, fear possibly could:

 :arrow: Allow control;
 :arrow: -2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks (as per panicked description);
 :arrow: Significant percentage of spell failure;
 :arrow: Significant penalty to AB.




Title: Re: Fear
Post by: ThAnswr on December 08, 2009, 04:02:24 PM
I swear they should use these game mechanic discussion threads for psychology training.

Shhh, let's keep some things among ourselves.   :lol:
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on December 08, 2009, 04:03:47 PM
Or, somehow make it so that offensive options are not available, IE the character cannot attack or target creatures with spells.  However, they can move and flee, use abilities and mages could possibly be able to use self-targeted spells.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Delete Me on December 08, 2009, 04:09:52 PM
I'm not convinced that allowing people to control their characters will result in them roleplaying the effects of Fear at all when it comes to PvP situations, instead they're likely just opting to keep fighting.

The aim I'm seeing is that you're trying to avoid characters standing still while getting beaten up or running into more enemies and getting beaten up. So, fear possibly could:

 :arrow: Allow control;
 :arrow: -2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks (as per panicked description);
 :arrow: Significant percentage of spell failure;
 :arrow: Significant penalty to AB.

With a good -15 to AB, and a 100% spell failure, I would be for this, actually.

Gives me the control to run -where- I want to run, because it makes fighting useless.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Emomina on December 08, 2009, 04:12:00 PM
I don't agree with dropping hand-held items, but the spell is not operating in a way that is similar to the PnP version, which we always seem to emulate. The fact that the spell can be countered is not a good argument for leaving it the way that it is, because that is not what we were trying to change.

I concede your point that changing the spell to real effect is valid. But my point is that it is balanced, and not broken.  Whenever there is a detrimental effect in dnd, there is also a readily available counter to keep it in zen like balance. Because it can be countered, it can push then envelope of fairness. There are many examples of it.  Stealth is countered by true seeing, magic missile by shield, fireball by evasion, mobility by opportunist   .........etc etc.

I think it is important to consider how well the counter is, and how readily available it is when thinking about how powerful something is, that is my point.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: ethinos on December 08, 2009, 04:23:37 PM
Oh, but I don't think Fear is overly powerful, and with some of the recommendations in this thread, may even become more powerful. I simply do not like how Bioware implemented Fear in this game (and this is not a new thing for me either). I also do not care a bit about counters, either, when I am more worried about the spell's effect and its closeness to its PnP counterpart.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Bluebomber4evr on December 08, 2009, 04:57:35 PM
It's important to remember that the Fear spell and its effect are not normal fear, but a magical compulsion brought on by the spell or a monster's spell-like ability (e.g. a mummy's fear aura). It is not intended to be a representation of the normal human emotion, but instead a supernatural exaggeration/exacerbation of the emotion that overrides your PC's senses. The loss of control is due to the effect of the spell; the real problem lies in the pathfinding abilities of the engine, as HellsPanda said, because it your character ends up running in the wrong direction or ends up getting caught on something (be it a placeable or just part of the tileset like a rock on the floor or stuck in a corner).
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Rex on December 08, 2009, 05:08:27 PM
Mummy Aura I was almost positive Always rooted you in place.  Heh, I'd rather be frozen in place, then ping ponged down that crypt hallway.  :D

~Rex
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Bluebomber4evr on December 08, 2009, 05:11:13 PM
Mummy Aura I was almost positive Always rooted you in place.  Heh, I'd rather be frozen in place, then ping ponged down that crypt hallway.  :D

~Rex

correct, at least under 3.5 rules. The same for a bone golem's howl (which I made sure to change for this server)
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Knas on December 08, 2009, 05:14:59 PM
I don't see why you should get scared ooc which some of you make arguments about ;) It's just a game mechanic and I really don't see it hard at all to rp out the way it is. While it might not be 100% dnd accurate it serves it's purpose and I don't think there's a single person of you all who isn't accustomed with how the fear in nwn works. Besides it can be countered by a ton of spells including a level 1 spell, as well as several class abilities and potions or by simply getting more than 8 wisdom.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Rex on December 08, 2009, 05:21:14 PM
I'm all for scared.  I just lean towards the books, and don't really care if people lose their stuff and run away, if the end result is FAR BETTER STORY.  I've lost boatloads of stuff, it's not like it's difficult to replace a weapon, and a shield.  Granted the most coin I ever lost, was 143,000.  It took me three days to replace that, so again, no big deal.

~Rex
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on December 08, 2009, 05:25:09 PM
The Protection From spell is broken, because Bioware forgot, among many other things, to implement 30% of the spell...in essence "Protection vs. Neutral".

Therefore any PC or creature who is neutral basically bypasses a character's defense granted by protection/aura spells.

Yes, I'm quite well accustomed with how the fear in NwN works.  I'm stating how it "should" work, and that it could use a touch-up for our server.

The fear brought on by the "Fear" spell, or Aura's of fear is a mind-numbing fear that overrides all other actions and senses, and causes the frightened character to flee from anyone he does not consider allies.

Since the AI taking control of the PC was made what...8 years ago?  And the fact that it doesn't work (In some cases the feared character simply stands there and doesn't even run), and the character takes suicidal actions such as running headfirst into enemies when he shouldn't...

Keep the spell the same.  Just give the control to the player, and not some stupid AI.

The frustration of sitting back and watching your character die would be replaced by fear...trying desperately to get them out of that situation.

We love fear on this server, not frustration.

Cheers.

Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Knas on December 08, 2009, 05:31:50 PM
I'd say that'd be a huge nerf to the spell, anyone can escape an npc's pathfinding by simply running, and the one thing the spell does is that it strips the player from his control, remove that and it's just a disarm. Besides at the top of my head at least, I can't think if a single NPC able to cast it in our module that isn't evil.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Rex on December 08, 2009, 05:46:32 PM
Freeze 'em!   *Drops all Gear, stands rooted to the spot in utter terror*

I vote Yea!

~Rex
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: LawfulJoe on December 08, 2009, 05:49:37 PM
Freeze 'em!   *Drops all Gear, stands rooted to the spot in utter terror*

I vote Yea!

~Rex

heh if this is the future of fear... I vote to leave it alone :P
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Minstrel on December 08, 2009, 05:53:41 PM
The Protection From spell is broken, because Bioware forgot, among many other things, to implement 30% of the spell...in essence "Protection vs. Neutral".

Afaik, there's no Protection vs. Neutral. There's Prot vs. Law and Prot vs. Chaotic, though.

But they don't give total mind immunity, they protection from Compulsion and Charm spells. They also only last 1/min per level. For immunity to Mind spells, you use Clarity, or a high will save. Clarity isn't a long-lasting buff, so you have equipment to use it sparsely, not as a blanket immunity.

PfE as it is is substantially better than in PnP.

If anything, low-Will save classes have it well. There's no spell a Rogue can use to grant it immunity to all Fort saves, and no spell a Barbarian can use for immunity to most Reflex save spells.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Rex on December 08, 2009, 06:24:50 PM
Freeze 'em!   *Drops all Gear, stands rooted to the spot in utter terror*

I vote Yea!

~Rex

heh if this is the future of fear... I vote to leave it alone :P

I'd settle for a percentage chance compromise.  Seriously though, Stuff tangents make it pretty easy for me to find out who has "special gear" and who doesn't....heh.....Stuff, Means nothing.  Seriously it doesn't.  It's just Stuff, and losing stuff, certainly brings an element of fear.

~Rex
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: shadymerchant on December 08, 2009, 08:54:24 PM
The spell is not overpowered and I don't think the goal was ever to  "bring into balance." It is, infact, not used all that much by PC's in hostile situations. I have never had it used on me in the three + years of playing here. That's not to say it doesn't have its place, but I don't think the intent of this thread or those arguing for a change is in anyway oriented towards weakening. It is, I believe, simply a very poor implimentation. I think the floating skulls animation looks silly. I think getting stuck on corners is silly. I think running from a bonebat, which isn't blocked by PFE, into the main room of a lich and 20 + enemies is silly.

I'd also add that RPing the spell as it is is rare, because most players who are feared are to frustrated to dialogue or are simply content to let things take their course since all control is gone. I would much more inclined to RP it myself if I had some free reign with how to do so, and even being paralyzed is less of a death sentence than being pushed around for several minutes.

And you already drop weapons when you die, so that's not much of a change given that it's largely a death sentence anyhow.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Kendric98 on December 08, 2009, 11:16:50 PM
It fears you and you stand there paralized forced...er um incouraged to rp that fear if the save is missed by alot. Missed by 5 or more you have control of the stearing but still must run, over 10 it could be the way it is now where you run random. How about that?
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Emomina on December 09, 2009, 10:01:01 AM
The main problem I have always had with fear is the aura, gets triggered over and over with the enemies running away, so you will fail eventually... But 90% of the things that can fear you, you have a knowledge of what you are up against ahead of time.
The only time it happens that you dont have time to circumvent the fear ruining your battle is when a fear inducing creature is on the other side of the transition. Ghost Stags are one of the biggest culprits.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: ThAnswr on December 09, 2009, 10:10:29 AM
Getting hit with a fear aura is one of those "kick yourself in the ***" moments because you forgot to take a cleric, potion, or scroll with you.  It's not like there's a great suprise what's around the corner, behind that door, or passed the next transition.   Hang around long enough and you're on a first name basis with the fear aura-er.   :mrgreen:

Btw, dare I mention it, but a paladin is immune to fear from level 2 on.  I'm surprised none of the "overpowered/underpowered/out of balance" folks haven't picked up on this obvious "overpowered/underpowered/out of balance" situation. 
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Rex on December 09, 2009, 10:38:01 AM
The Immunity to Fear that Paladins get is one of their few things really.  I don't fault my favorite class for that.  What I will fault, are "Mechanic Builds" But then I fault munchkinisim and power building in every class.  Comparing them on a power scale isn't going to work, because they only compare directly to the other Warrior Classes, which all have their own advantages as well.  It's not on the same field of play, as the exponential power growth of any Caster.

~Rex  :D
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Pepchko on December 09, 2009, 10:40:29 AM
here is how i perceive fear from my Perspective.

i use the Spell Fear often in my horror scenes, and i can reflect that the lose of control is necessary. to often i run into players "who just dont grasp" the concept of horror, and fear more or less gets that point across. from my personal experience, horror can only be achieved when the victim player has no control over the situation/encounter, because all those who can challenge the situation for control, will do so (I.E. High level characters). fear is a loss of control and there for is a wonderful tool in my encounters. as with my domination ability, ive had people ignore its effects after the 30 second timer runs out. according to the P&P D&D description of the spell, the domination would last a number of days equal to the casters level (obviously unrealistic amount of time). 30 seconds isnt long enough to muster any amount of RP, and i have to rely on the players to RP out the effects longer. you would be amazed how many avoid/ignore it.

FYI: if the spell Fear is used on a player who is flagged Neutral, the recipient player will remain stationary and not "ping pong" around. however, it is against the rules to use hostile spells without flagging your opponent, but a lose of control while standing in place is one concept that could be considered.

Title: Re: Fear
Post by: ThAnswr on December 09, 2009, 10:57:10 AM
here is how i perceive fear from my Perspective.

i use the Spell Fear often in my horror scenes, and i can reflect that the lose of control is necessary. to often i run into players "who just dont grasp" the concept of horror, and fear more or less gets that point across. from my personal experience, horror can only be achieved when the victim player has no control over the situation/encounter, because all those who can challenge the situation for control, will do so (I.E. High level characters). fear is a loss of control and there for is a wonderful tool in my encounters. as with my domination ability, ive had people ignore its effects after the 30 second timer runs out. according to the P&P D&D description of the spell, the domination would last a number of days equal to the casters level (obviously unrealistic amount of time). 30 seconds isnt long enough to muster any amount of RP, and i have to rely on the players to RP out the effects longer. you would be amazed how many avoid/ignore it.

FYI: if the spell Fear is used on a player who is flagged Neutral, the recipient player will remain stationary and not "ping pong" around. however, it is against the rules to use hostile spells without flagging your opponent, but a lose of control while standing in place is one concept that could be considered.



:clap:

Your perspective, in my opinion, is one of the best as it relates to Fear. 
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Rex on December 09, 2009, 11:16:50 AM
It's not that they don't Grasp Fear.  They Grasp it, look at the sheer reaction you get from the masses when you point out, they could lose their Longbow and their money.

It's that they don't WANT, to be afraid of anyone.  Unfortunately, Horror Checks aren't a functional part of the automated functions of POTM.  Still, DM's can easily solve that issue as well.

~Rex
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Knas on December 09, 2009, 11:40:01 AM
Problem with horror check is that it's hard to create a functional mechanic for it. Having to monitor someone 24/7 to make sure they uphold their horror status is a lot of work :(
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: herkles on December 09, 2009, 12:06:52 PM
here is how i perceive fear from my Perspective.

i use the Spell Fear often in my horror scenes, and i can reflect that the lose of control is necessary. to often i run into players "who just dont grasp" the concept of horror, and fear more or less gets that point across. from my personal experience, horror can only be achieved when the victim player has no control over the situation/encounter, because all those who can challenge the situation for control, will do so (I.E. High level characters). fear is a loss of control and there for is a wonderful tool in my encounters. as with my domination ability, ive had people ignore its effects after the 30 second timer runs out. according to the P&P D&D description of the spell, the domination would last a number of days equal to the casters level (obviously unrealistic amount of time). 30 seconds isnt long enough to muster any amount of RP, and i have to rely on the players to RP out the effects longer. you would be amazed how many avoid/ignore it.

FYI: if the spell Fear is used on a player who is flagged Neutral, the recipient player will remain stationary and not "ping pong" around. however, it is against the rules to use hostile spells without flagging your opponent, but a lose of control while standing in place is one concept that could be considered.

That is a great view point, and one I agree with. Fear is a neat spell, to lose control is frightening. And one has to remember this is not the normal fear emotion but magical fear. Fear that is beyond what a normal person understands, thus the erratic movement.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Rex on December 09, 2009, 12:08:40 PM
As it is now, the no control thing isn't frightening.  It's just annoying.  Have them drop all their gear like they are supposed to, THAT, will scare the bejeezus out of folk.

~Rex
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Chrisman888 on December 09, 2009, 12:10:57 PM
Problem with horror check is that it's hard to create a functional mechanic for it. Having to monitor someone 24/7 to make sure they uphold their horror status is a lot of work :(

DM once did a horror check for me and now I am scared of water and have nightmares of drowning. In my personal experience that horror check was great! I don't really need 24/7 DM to monitor me. I just do the RP myself and the PC's around me, react towards it. (IE: Resting then waking up in sweats, raced heart, ect). Let's see some more Horror checks! Possibly more ones that a player can RP without a DM and doesn't "cripple" there character to much.

Really, no one wants to RP something they really don't enjoy. I even think players should be talked to before the check, asking them something that would fit there character more and if they will enjoy RPing it.


~ Chris
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on December 09, 2009, 01:31:42 PM
Points that I do not necessarily agree with are underlined.

Quote
i use the Spell Fear often in my horror scenes, and i can reflect that the lose of control is necessary. to often i run into players "who just dont grasp" the concept of horror, and fear more or less gets that point across. from my personal experience, horror can only be achieved when the victim player has no control over the situation/encounter, because all those who can challenge the situation for control, will do so (I.E. High level characters). fear is a loss of control and there for is a wonderful tool in my encounters. as with my domination ability, ive had people ignore its effects after the 30 second timer runs out. according to the P&P D&D description of the spell, the domination would last a number of days equal to the casters level (obviously unrealistic amount of time). 30 seconds isnt long enough to muster any amount of RP, and i have to rely on the players to RP out the effects longer. you would be amazed how many avoid/ignore it.

From my experience, you cannot really begin to try to force RP, even horror roleplay on anyone...it can be frustrating for the other player.  There are many factors that might influence why that certain player "Just doesn't grasp" the concept of horror. They could be a younger player, or they might not really be here for the horror aspect of our server...that is alright.

Loss of control is not necessary to induce horror.  Horror is being placed in a situation that will induce fear and panic, most often because there is opportunity for loss-of-life.  However, (And not singling anyone out when I say this) no player has the right to force any amount of roleplay onto another player, so therefore it would be better that the CHARACTER loses control, not the player.

I admit that a certain degree of loss of control can generate fear.  But when a player completely loses control of what can be done with THEIR character, that creates FRUSTRATION and not horror or fear.  I guarantee you even if they can still move around 90% of the characters under the effects are going to experience fear, and their players as well.

Horror can often be achieved when the other player has control of the situation.  Take Destiny's werewolf for example.  Everyone who encounters it has control.  They can either run, or stand their ground...most who do the latter tend to become a spot on the ground.  Going up against something large and nearly unstoppable that wants to rip you apart is horror...and there is no loss of control.

When I played Vicho Cain, I would attack the outskirts a few times.  Usually I would give fair warning that he was there, and those that didn't want to participate would run inside.  Those who stayed faced PKs, fireballs and magic missles, and after casting a few spells hasted I would go invisible and hide, then move to avoid being shredded.  Going up against a methodical villian who is clever and cunning is horror...and there is no loss of control.

When I played out my torture scenes with Vicho Cain, my victim always got a tell beforehand and in most cases I even asked them ahead of them if they'd be for this type of RP.  Most were excited.  He would proceed to strap them down on his machine and wake them up (They could break free with a high strength roll).  He would proceed to torture them, cut them open, play with their insides, and fill them with worms...etc.  In this case, there was a loss of control...but for the PC...and NOT for the player.

A high-level, as you put it isn't necessarily attempting to control a situation if they move to defy your PC, whom is a high level sorcerer.  There could be any number of reasons why they would confront you.  You have many tools at your disposal being a vampire, and as so horror would be somehow making those high-level characters feel powerless to stop you...not attempting to detract them from the situation entirely based on their level.

As for 30 seconds not being enough time to generate RP, I find that statement to be false.  When Vicho would dominate someone, I would have an emote ready to fire off.  Something along the line of a soothing voice, and having them unsheath their blade and turn it on themselves.  Or, if there was a friend present I would have them draw the sword and stalk menacingly towards them.  All this could be done in 30 seconds, and generates roleplay which will unfold even AFTER the spell duration subsides.

The point of my post here is that despite anything that is going on screen, it is up to the player to feel fear based on what is going on.  Some people will feel it, some won't, but you can't ever attempt to force any degree of RP on another player.  You can only be suggestive about it.  That being said, replacing the horrible mechanic for a player's control over their character will still initiate fear into those players who want to feel afraid.  But in all cases the factor of frustration will be gone, as it should be.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Minstrel on December 09, 2009, 02:28:47 PM
Are you suggesting we actually get rid of every effect that causes people to lose control of their character?

That's all the stun effects from evocation spells, Bigbys ones included, possibly knockdowns, any spell abilities from monsters that do that, the grappling of those lovable gelatinous cubes, and pretty much the entirety of the Enchantment school.

Losing control of your character is a common part of DnD, just as much as counters to these things are. Compare two level 5 spells:

Slay Living

Dominate Person.

Fail the save of one of them: Lose control to the mage who cast it.

Fail the save of the other: You are dead. Go directly to the Fugue Plane. Do not pass Kelemvor. Do not collect two hundred fang.

Both allow a saving throw against the effects, and spells that give immunity to the effect accessible by potions or items freely available. So what makes losing control of your character so bad in comparison to being dead?
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: DM Nocturne on December 09, 2009, 02:45:34 PM
Maybe people should stop being insecure and protective over their characters when they temporarily lose the ability to move them the way they want. Perhaps then it wouldn't be frustrating.

Jus' let ze game flo', mon.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on December 09, 2009, 04:49:00 PM
Well, the only real thing I agree with is hold person.  The purpose of the spell is to immobolize your character.  So are the bigby's spells, with the higher ones having some damage thrown in. Fear's purpose is to create a state of panic in the character, which due to the insanely stupid AI just causes them to bounce around and ping pong aimlessly, or when it does not work stand there for no apparent reason.

And under the spell dominate person the players are still in control, just following orders based on what the caster says.  Everything except for self-destructing orders are carried out.

No, I'm not suggesting we actually get rid of every effect that causes people to lose control of their character, as that would be a stupid idea.

I stated that losing control wasn't necessary to induce horror.

I'm just saying the Fear spell is idiotic as it is and could use a touchup.

Hold person in the D&D universe:

Hold Person
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level:   Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components:    V, S, F/DF
Casting time:    1 standard action
Range:    Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target:    One humanoid creature
Duration:    1 round/level (D); see text
Saving Throw:   Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance:    Yes

The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)

Bigby's:

Forceful Hand
Evocation [Force]
Level:   Sor/Wiz 6
Components:    V, S, F

This spell functions like interposing hand, except that the forceful hand pursues and pushes away the opponent that you designate. Treat this attack as a bull rush with a +14 bonus on the Strength check (+8 for Strength 27, +4 for being Large, and a +2 bonus for charging, which it always gets). The hand always moves with the opponent to push that target back the full distance allowed, and it has no speed limit. Directing the spell to a new target is a move action.
A very strong creature could not push the hand out of its way because the latter would instantly reposition itself between the creature and you, but an opponent could push the hand up against you by successfully bull rushing it.

Great spell, if it was implemented right as well.  Take notice the target is pushed backwards unless succeeding the bull-rush, not being knocked down senseless until the spell ends.

EDIT: To even make a revamp of the fear spell greater...occasionally give the victim a discipline check simulating that they trip and fall because they are so frightened trying to get away.  This will enhance the fear, and even if the player has control of the character's movements they could possibly fall, letting opponents catch up to them.

Genius.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Bad_Bud on December 09, 2009, 06:03:09 PM
Uhh, to go off topic:

Speaking of the bull rush spell, I realize it has already been weakened by the addition of the reflex saving throw.  However, the saving throw is still nearly impossible to make for non-rogue characters.  I think it should be altered so that freedom of movement would counter this spell.  Currently it's a stun and a knockdown, both of which can't be countered by anything (you can prevent the stun but you stay knocked down).
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Purist on December 09, 2009, 06:42:57 PM
I believe I've understood what Aldarris suggested primarily. He wants to bring RP and survivalism to somebody under Fear. He is not saying that the spell should have it's effects removed. Of course, he does ask for one thing to be removed, the stupid run amok attitude that a PC may go under the effects of fear. He suggests that the player under the effect of fear, start to role play his escape by properly running away from the foe, instead of becoming stuck on pillars or wall corners as it happen. I like the idea.

My idea of what fear should be is: Creatures with fear will try to escape, if escape is not possible, they'll fight for their life, with penalties. Those penalties in NWN, if I remember right, affect will and attack rolls. But I personally think that the penalties for Will should be greater, and instead of having penalties for their attack rolls, creatures under fear instead could gain bonuses to their attack rolls, why? They're cornered, wetting their pants and will do anything to save their life. Of course also a minor AC penalty could be applied in this case.

Another idea, somebody casting fear against another(let's call it X) -that if PC control is not lost- and "X" fails the save and becomes scared, this event could trigger a DC, if the fear spell caster rolled a D100 and scored 90 or more, X could instead of scared become terrorized, therefore dropping his equipment(maybe not) and then running amok without player control.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: solgursky on December 09, 2009, 09:09:51 PM
Okay, I'm a newbie but I have an idea on this.
To make people RP fear, instead of having the 'fear effect' kick in, is what we want, right?
So, give the player incentive to run/be scared.
Under the effects of fear, reduce HP (Constitution to 6, or something appropriate) and AC (-10, or set at 10, or other appropriate idea), make 100% spell failure.
That way the character is entirely exposed, the player behind the character will do everything possible to escape the situation.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Purist on December 09, 2009, 10:23:06 PM
I give:

'No' to reduce HP.
'Yes' to spell failure.
'Maybe' to AC reduction.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on December 10, 2009, 02:45:13 PM
So how about it?  Is this something that can be tweaked a bit?  Again, my suggestion was to remove the ping-ponging AI, giving the control to the player, keeping fear otherwise the same, except maybe add a script that randomly makes a discipline check which failed would result in tripping/falling.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Minstrel on December 10, 2009, 03:22:59 PM
Okay, I'm a newbie but I have an idea on this.
To make people RP fear, instead of having the 'fear effect' kick in, is what we want, right?
So, give the player incentive to run/be scared.
Under the effects of fear, reduce HP (Constitution to 6, or something appropriate) and AC (-10, or set at 10, or other appropriate idea), make 100% spell failure.
That way the character is entirely exposed, the player behind the character will do everything possible to escape the situation.

The problem with this is that it can be sort of ignored. Slapping Improved Expertise on would negate the AC penalty and allow you to remain in a fight.

You'd have to drop both AC and AB for it to be effecting, and still it dosen't force running. Many characters would be able to tank pretty decently even with -10 AC.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: KoopaFanatic on December 10, 2009, 04:35:48 PM
Also, anything that drops Constitution is a very bad idea -- something like that could easily insta-kill an injured PC, which would be even more frustrating and pointless than dying because you're suddenly too exhausted to run away, or dying because chasing a fleeing werewolf suddenly makes you incur bunch of AoOs from the rest of the pack.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on January 30, 2010, 11:33:04 PM
Still could use fixing.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Delete Me on January 31, 2010, 12:24:00 AM
I disagree.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Pepchko on January 31, 2010, 12:33:21 AM
this topic is a dead horse, let it die

(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu152/Stravokov/dead-horse.gif)
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: nakedxXbeauty on January 31, 2010, 01:55:43 AM
I disagree.


You seem to disagree with just about anything that people have to say.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Delete Me on January 31, 2010, 02:52:17 AM
[self-deleted]
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Bad_Bud on January 31, 2010, 04:27:14 AM
I disagree.


You seem to disagree with just about anything that people have to say.

...not that I've seen.

Still could use fixing.

To say it needs 'fixing' implies it is broken, which it is not, it just may not be the flavor of fear that some want.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: LoLJohnFerro on January 31, 2010, 10:03:36 AM
I disagree.


You seem to disagree with just about anything that people have to say.

...not that I've seen.

Still could use fixing.

To say it needs 'fixing' implies it is broken, which it is not, it just may not be the flavor of fear that some want.
Cant we all just be friends!, Also Fear has a few issues like the person will start to attack and even when injured not move...
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: nakedxXbeauty on January 31, 2010, 12:04:11 PM
If there is absolutely no chance that fear can be tweaked at all the thread should be locked and done with.  If there is a chance that it could be considered that the spell is a bit... off, that would be awesome. 

Just yesterday I was in a dungeon with two other players.  Two of us, myself included, had fear cast on us.  One of us ran directly at the enemy and died.... I stood there and continued to shoot them with arrows even though I was feared.  I don't know if that was a bug or not, but either way I just don't see how it makes sense for someone to be running INTO danger when they're scared poopless.  If the spell being used were "Confusion" then yeah, maybe it would make sense.  You do the most outrageous things during that spell, but come on... fear?  I know nothing about scripting or tweaking spells but it would make much more sense to me if a feared individual would run towards the exit of the dungeon instead of just run about aimlessly into the thing that actually caused the fear in them.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: LadyDragn on January 31, 2010, 12:20:37 PM
Gotta agree with NB here, even in the corniest movies (black and white B-movies) the damsel who is terrified runs AWAY from the one causing her fear. Granted she's running in her nightgown down streets but she's still running away from the source not directly into its arms. That's not to say that Fear is broken, but it is a bit unrealistic, and lately it seems that things have been tweaked for more realism, so maybe if the Developers have time they can add this to the "realism" list. Even if frozen in fear (paralyzed) that would make more sense than running around into walls and/or into the mob.

Just my two cents on the matter. :)
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Zarathustra217 on January 31, 2010, 02:43:35 PM
I think the fear effect became bugged as per last update or the one before. I'll look at that. That's a different thing from wanting to revise the entire fear system though, as the original topic was about.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: LoLJohnFerro on January 31, 2010, 11:49:19 PM
Can we also fix that if your feared and run into a transition you go threw it... not stand in it forever and sigh holding your head in your hands as what ever feared you delivers a slow and agonizing death?
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on February 02, 2010, 02:01:11 AM
If the player is given control of their PC, not being able to make any other options other to run and click...that's entirely possible.

Then maybe peple won't be throwing their hands up in frustration when they're feared.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Pepchko on February 02, 2010, 02:26:56 AM
this is how i perceive the NWN Fear spell

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab1ueRvygqc&feature=related[/youtube]

running around into things that kill ya happens. specially in a World Like Ravenloft where there are many creatures that "want" to kill ya like Jason Voorhees.


the Fear spell is the Game engines way of Portraying Fear Mechanically. thats why allot of Creatures have "fear Auras", and also why the response is to run away from them in a panic. i think the spell is just fine as it is really. butchering the mechanics doesn't seem necessary to me.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on February 02, 2010, 03:42:49 AM
That's a fine enough analogy, except that's not how the spell works.  -Initiailly- the character might run away from whatever it is, but eventually the poor engine takes over and the character will just run around randomly.  I've described panic and frightened definitions as they're used in PnP in previous posts.

Vincent feared Leon one time, and at one point he actually ran -towards- Vincent and then I sent you an OOC tell joking about it.  That's what I mean.

As for the movie clip,  I'm sorry to say I never did like the Halloween movies personally.  They were predictable and frustrating to watch from a horror buff's perspective.  If you watch the camera angles just before the guy gets killed, somehow "Jason" manages to disappear from  chasing behind the guy, circles around him without being seen in his peripheral view, nor by you the viewer with a clear view of the forest behind the victim.  Jason appears somehow regardless coming from the opposite direction and kills him with the Weedwhacker.  Simply walking the whole time.

Yay... :facepalm:

As for the positive of the movie clip, yes that's how fear should be...with the victim always running -away- from the thing that initially caused the fear...possibly falling or stumbling because of the vividness of the fear effect.

It would be nice if the control was given to the player, but at the same time they would randomly be prone to dex or discipline checks to remain afoot from running away.  This would give the player behind the screen a sense of actually being a victim as it were in such a horror movie, having their PC flee for safety and occiasionally falling making the player think "Oh, come on...get up, get up!"  There'd be a sense of terror instead of the player leaning back in their chair and watching their PC make stupid decisions to PURPOSEFULLY (due to poor game mechanics) get themselves killed.

I think this would be a great idea, and would enhance the feeling of fear on the server...the fear spell itself would promote FEAR instead of FRUSTRATION.

What are other people's thoughts on this idea?

Title: Re: Fear
Post by: LadyDragn on February 02, 2010, 03:46:53 AM
I like it :)
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Budly on February 02, 2010, 04:06:12 AM
Fear is not fine the way it is


      *
I----    ----I
     I  I

That is a entry to a room, the dot is you. The big evil thing scares the hell out of you and...

I*        I
I---   ----I
    I  I


And suddenly you stand over there, even if the corridor was behind you. Right! That makes you leave the source of fear. Running against a wall is madness :)

But clearly, It would proably be to much work to change it.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Delete Me on February 02, 2010, 04:19:12 AM
Eh- Making it any other way makes the spell redundant.

May as well just give you increased movement speed, and dazed, but make you glow or something... 

Then again, relies on DM enforcement to make sure you're running around screaming like a maimed git. xD
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on February 02, 2010, 12:56:56 PM
All one must do is hit v w w in succession and call out for help.  The player then can start running their PC in the opposite direction, incurring random checks so as not to stumble, or get up quickly from stumbling.

It would be great RP for the victim of the spell to actually be able to RP as a victim.

Again, other's thoughts?  :D
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: LadyDragn on February 02, 2010, 01:02:52 PM
I'm sure there is some way to trigger the voiceset without even hitting the v w w.

Kind of like how it triggers when you're encumbered. I like the theory of Aldarris' idea. Allow the PC to "only run away" and not any other action, and while under the effect the voice set "Help" triggers. *shrugs*
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: shadymerchant on February 02, 2010, 03:46:10 PM
Eh- Making it any other way makes the spell redundant.

May as well just give you increased movement speed, and dazed, but make you glow or something... 

Then again, relies on DM enforcement to make sure you're running around screaming like a maimed git. xD

I think increased movement speed would be good, and hilarious. As a result of adreneline those feared run around at 150% while monsters stumble in their wake.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: DM Nocturne on February 02, 2010, 03:57:56 PM
Not everyone reacts to fear in the same way. So to attempt to script it appropriately would be difficult.

Also you would expect fear induced by magic not to have the same effect as one would be affected by morale failure. So maybe it makes sense for an illogical response? (e.g. someone to run into a wall or corner and claw at it.)

Personally I wouldn't trust others to roleplay out the fear if you gave control while under the spell.

Still sticking to my previous suggestion:

I'm not convinced that allowing people to control their characters will result in them roleplaying the effects of Fear at all when it comes to PvP situations, instead they're likely just opting to keep fighting.

The aim I'm seeing is that you're trying to avoid characters standing still while getting beaten up or running into more enemies and getting beaten up. So, fear possibly could:

 :arrow: Allow control;
 :arrow: -2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks (as per panicked description);
 :arrow: Significant percentage of spell failure;
 :arrow: Significant penalty to AB.

With a good -15 to AB, and a 100% spell failure, I would be for this, actually.

Gives me the control to run -where- I want to run, because it makes fighting useless.

Perhaps this way allows freedom to the player but with restrictions.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Little Lotte on February 02, 2010, 04:42:09 PM
Eh- Making it any other way makes the spell redundant.

May as well just give you increased movement speed, and dazed, but make you glow or something... 

Then again, relies on DM enforcement to make sure you're running around screaming like a maimed git. xD

I think increased movement speed would be good, and hilarious. As a result of adreneline those feared run around at 150% while monsters stumble in their wake.


ROFLMAO
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on February 02, 2010, 05:19:35 PM
Zealot, I'm two thumbs up for your idea.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Minstrel on February 02, 2010, 05:53:29 PM
Problem with the -15 AB and 100% failure:

Fighter gets hit with Fear.

Slaps up Expertise/Improved Expertise.

Continues to hold the line fine with huge AC and allows his teammates to keep using ranged attacks.

The purpose of the Fear mechanic is to break the line, to remove from Fighters their ability to clot up enemies around them whilst archers and mages pick them off. This change removes that ability.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on February 02, 2010, 06:09:20 PM
Lower dodge AC by half, or make it next to nothing, and much like we have in ghost form, potions, items, skills, and feats cannot be used while under the fear effect.

Characters fumbling, shaking too much to use an item.  Not thinking clearly so "Fight or Flight" is their only option (Fight being rather impossible with the magically induced fear, and penalties thereof)

The character might move maybe 50% faster being panicked, and having a temporary adrenaline rush...but suffers dex or discipline checks randomly every few rounds to reflect how afraid they are, prone to make mistakes, slip and fall.

Fighters could stay in this position, but they'd most likely die, and even if they stay to fight say...a bonebat, they're not going to be much use with -15 AB, half their dodge AC gone, and randomly falling every few rounds.

Thus, the line would get broken (Credit to Minstrel), players can enjoy RPing being fearful, the "Help me!" emote could come up when they become Feared (Thank you, DragonMystique), and the server-wide frustration that the poorly implemented Fear spell causes is gone, replaced with a great addition of horror that makes our server even more unique and enjoyable for everyone.

Problem solved.

Keep the ideas coming guys, and I'll keep putting stuff together.  Thoughts on this idea?  Maybe some input from the Dev Team on whether this can be accomplished or not (I'm pretty sure it can)

 :thumbup: :thumbup:
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Minstrel on February 09, 2010, 12:28:00 PM
The catch 22 here:

Not lowering AC and allowing you to retain control stops the need to run thanks to Improved Expertise. (Lowing AC by a huge 10 points means Imp Expertise would negate that and allow you to remain tanking. Hence you'd need a ridiculous reduction for it to be effective.)

Lowering AC enough so that it would force you to run makes you a magnet for all ranged attacks and all attacks before you realise you got feared. Furthermore, if you get Feared along with any movement-inhibiting effect (Entangle, Web, Paralysis, Grease, Stun, Encumberance from Str Damage etc etc) you're buggered anyway, since this would mean you lose a huge amount of AC, and can't even flee your combat if you wanted to.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Strife on February 09, 2010, 01:50:27 PM
Perhaps I am a bit old school here but fear and it's effects are best served by our imagination. Fear is a powerful emotion, not one that can be "automated". Having a generic response (running away) defeats the concept of a basic method of survival ( I speak to fear and it's relation to PVP & PVM not the spell)
Fear is a source of strength for some, but could also be an achillies heel for others. Fear could manifest itself as strength in the weakest of beings but at the same paralyze the strongest. Should fear ( I would add terror to the discussion) not be roleplayed but instead the result of a universally determined outcome then really only the story which we are all here for is the only thing that suffers.

Strife
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on February 09, 2010, 02:04:22 PM
I hate to give the Dev teams another task, as they're always swamped, but this would REALLY benefit our server entirely.  Especially new players who are struck with "fear" for the first time and realize "Hey, I have control...but my character is terrified...I can actually -ROLEPLAY- Fear!!  This is great!"

If necessary, I'll compile all the good ideas for new affects and send them in to the Dev team.  Thanks for reading my thread!

Cheers.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Minstrel on February 09, 2010, 08:16:45 PM
No matter what it can't be perfect, sadly.

Any system that trusts the player to RP fear will be either exploitable, or broken in different contexts.

My best suggestion for this would be to have someone who is suffering from Fear alternate between the game controlling their movement, and them controlling movement, every round. For example: You get feared, run away in NWN fear for six seconds, have six seconds of control, and another six seconds of NWN fear, six seconds of control, and so on until the Fear ends one way or the others.

It'd give you a chance to get out of stupid situations like running into a wall, but make engaging in combat once again futile, since as soon as you'd gotten back to the monster you'd be losing control and running away in fear again, which retains the purpose of the Fear mechanic - stopping the tank from tanking.

Not sure how easy that would be to implement, though.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Strife on February 09, 2010, 08:36:55 PM
No matter what it can't be perfect, sadly.

Any system that trusts the player to RP fear will be either exploitable, or broken in different contexts.

I hate to point out that it has worked in the past and did not require any scripting. Fear has been roleplayed quite succesfully for over fours years since the server went beta, with a few exceptions here and there.
Some of my most memerobile events as a player and a DM have involved those players who accept their PC's mortality, fear and weaknesses.

Title: Re: Fear
Post by: HellsPanda on February 09, 2010, 08:48:46 PM
Minstrel didn't say it doesn't happen, he said its exploitable [some people might abuse it]... there is an intergalactic ocean of difference
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Bluebomber4evr on February 09, 2010, 10:16:22 PM
No matter what it can't be perfect, sadly.

Any system that trusts the player to RP fear will be either exploitable, or broken in different contexts.

I hate to point out that it has worked in the past and did not require any scripting. Fear has been roleplayed quite succesfully for over fours years since the server went beta, with a few exceptions here and there.
Some of my most memerobile events as a player and a DM have involved those players who accept their PC's mortality, fear and weaknesses.


that's completely different from the magical spell, Strife. ;)

The discussion really isn't about roleplay, it's about how the NWN engine attempts to replicate the effects of the magical spell. The effects of the spell are generally universal. The real problem is the engine's pathfinding is not the best and a character that fails their save ends up running towards the caster of the spell/effect or gets stuck in a corner.

I'd be for a way to improve the pathfinding if possible, everything else suggested in this thread seems far more complicated than it needs to be.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Chrisman888 on February 09, 2010, 10:18:06 PM
If we could set it up for the person to bolt to the nearest exit farthest from hostiles. That would be nice.



~ Chris
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on February 10, 2010, 01:49:57 AM
Second that.  We've already got monsters that run to exits after morale failure and go THROUGH them now.  Can we do that too?

Preeetty please?   :D
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Minstrel on February 10, 2010, 06:28:03 AM
No matter what it can't be perfect, sadly.

Any system that trusts the player to RP fear will be either exploitable, or broken in different contexts.

I hate to point out that it has worked in the past and did not require any scripting. Fear has been roleplayed quite succesfully for over fours years since the server went beta, with a few exceptions here and there.
Some of my most memerobile events as a player and a DM have involved those players who accept their PC's mortality, fear and weaknesses.

This is talking about the actual fear mechanic (the one that used to have skulls flying around you), representing magical fear as inflicted by the Fear spells, Fear auras, and so on and so forth, rather than roleplay fear bought about by events. Entirely different things.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Strife on February 10, 2010, 08:40:12 AM
My mistake then, the bit about exploiting fear without a system led me to beleive otherwise.
I'll admit the NWN engine leaves slot to be desired in regards to pathfinding.

Cheers
Strife
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Aldarris on February 10, 2010, 02:52:38 PM
Cheers guys.

I had no idea the pathfinding was fixible...this would probably be the easiest and most effective way (for now) to fix the frustration of the fear spell.

We could definately respect our PCs running towards an exit.
Title: Re: Fear
Post by: Bluebomber4evr on February 10, 2010, 03:14:47 PM
I actually don't know if the pathfinding is fixable or not, I just know that it's the reason why the Fear spell is so damn annoying. :P