Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Nefensis on July 11, 2009, 07:03:57 PM
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v282/Feles/alhoontreasure.jpg)
Even with the best search i couldn't see this trap but moreso the reward inside was pretty weak. There is quite a few chests in the alhoon lair that has the same issue. Some chests with no traps at all had a better content.
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You poor thing, you rolled a 20 on your reflex check and it wasn't enough. [Pat pat]
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............Wow! :Seriously__We_Need_One__by_Ca
Haha, yeah, this definitely needs to be looked at.
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She rolled a 12, and had a +20 on it. Those chests are insane, they're still the only thing that's killed my halfling Isabelle.
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They are one of the few deterrents to really high levels, in that they can't simply be ignored, so I like them. With rolls of 60 search I could see most fairly quickly, but the 53 + dc's could be challenging. What was in them though? Mostly junk.
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High traps i don't mind, but i'd like to see something in it.
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She rolled a 12, and had a +20 on it. Those chests are insane, they're still the only thing that's killed my halfling Isabelle.
Ah yeah, good call there.
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And your so poor to! :shock: We should take up a collection.
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I dont mind if there is a trap, i just make my minion to try open the trap first and then loot the content... -_^
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I dont mind if there is a trap, i just make my minion to try open the trap first and then loot the content... -_^
This is also a balance issue, there is a reason only rogues (and other trap sense classes) are supposed to disarm magic traps, to protect their role.
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ITS A TRAP! :lol:
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The reward in that chest was indeed a bit poor, but with better skill in disable trap the trap it self is a nice reward consider you can not make such traps here, that's how Lemmy got his nasty traps :D
Still you have to be able to find them first though to be able to remove them.
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So what you must have to make a good trapped?
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Hmm, the trap does feel a bit excessive.
I can look at the loot/reward ratio there, but always remember that the system has some randomization in it too, so one or too occurrences is not enough to estimate it.
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Sorry for not understanding this, but was it an epic fire trap? (DC of 43 + skill to spot, DC of 58 + skill to disarm, and a reflex/33 save.)
Even with a 'take 20' there is still a chance of failure for most, especially pre-epic levels. So is it an issue of removing epic traps from from common loot items like chest? I don't mind epic traps if they are there for the purpose of tension, in reminding a rogue that there are some things he'll never master. Kind of adds something to have to weigh the risk of checking out lootable items in a very dangerous place if it fits the theme of it. Or did I miss the point completely?
Side note, not being able to recover or craft an epic trap is hardcoded into the engine right? So the best a player can ever have is a deadly?
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kinda reminds me of the traps in the ice queen... 110 damage on a succesfull save *slightly off topic*
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Moustakas makes a very good point, Ice queen chests have very hard traps that might kill your char in a sec and there is almsot no loot at all sometimes...atleast i have not found any "Good" loot there despite how hard teh dungeon is.
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risk vs reward is the #1 reason for hitting a dungeon. Thats why people constantly farm scrags, werewolves, vampires, fire beetles, thoul caves and almost nothing else as a means to make a profit.
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Max spawn demonologists is the best loot dungeon. There's no reason to walk out of there with less than 40k, and considering you can get some really good items there as well, it's far better than alhoons for loot. The risk is quite a bit higher as well, though, so they're probably in line with each other that way.
The traps in the alhoons are the most dangerous things in there, and the traps in the ice queens palace are the only comparable ones. Neither are particularly worth doing unless you're mid level or lower. Rewards are meager for both places compared to risk.
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Demonologists is the size of roughly two other dungeons. Say for example Ahloon and Coal mines. If both were at max spawn at the same time, you'd walk out having completed them both in roughly same time with similar value to what you quoted. Including some decent gear.
people constantly farm scrags, werewolves, vampires, fire beetles, thoul caves and almost nothing else
is the reason I haven't gone in any of these dungeons, with rare exception in over a year. The spawn has never been worth it, and 90% of times I have gone to them to check spawn someone has been in middle of farming the dungeon. :roll:
But back on topic, IMHO the DC 50, 200 point dmg traps are overly excessive, be they Cold from Ice Palace, Fire or Sound from Ahloon.
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Yeah Alhoons traps are way harder than the monsters usually. By the time a Rogue can handle the traps with ease, the monsters wont be a great challenge anymore. Seems they could do with a little tone down.
This is a screenshot of a instadeath trap :lol: It only bothers me because its sprinkled in amongst some 12 or so traps that I was able to detect and disarm, so it gets you overconfident in time for this trap. Also, just wish instead of instant ghost, that you were allowed recovery checks. Reiko is level 9 high dexterity Rogue so the reflex save on this trap has to be balanced for a character with improved evasion only, because when she is level 20, if the build pans out as planned, her reflex save vs traps will be +25, and she could still fail this trap will a roll of 7 or below, roughly 1/3 of the time. (improved evasion for half damage would still have killed her :cry: this time though ) So, after this little incident, it was back to summoning a creature to kamikaze the chest first, and leaving my rogue on the sidelines from her niche in the party. That can't be the intention of these traps, surely.
(http://xs942.xs.to/xs942/09325/trap_posting124.png) (http://xs.to)
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It's good to be a mage...*Nods*
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We should really nerf mages so rogues become more useful.
Seriously, I play a wizard and he do not need any help. They can work as tanks, lockpickers, support, behind the lines nukers. Nerf em! Make em weaker :D ;)
And Rixula, to have your so called "minion" open the trapped chest sounds like engine abuse to me (Or atleast being rude ICly! Haha!). They do oftenly have a freewill of there own, like not opening a chest killing them ;)
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A 160 damage chest?!
O_O
With DC 33.... Dayum.
That does seem slightly epic-level powerful.
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I think the sonic traps, which are around 100 damage with no apparent save, are worse than the fire ones. A 10th level rogue (well, 11th here) with improved evasion and a protection from elements potion will survive all of the fire traps, but not necessarily the sonic one.
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You want to shove an unbuffed Rixula into the sonic one! Solves everyones problems ;)
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Thats pretty rude, seesh!
I dont abuse anything Gelmar, i dont cheat i am using my familiar to attack teh chest with high possibility for the item to be destroyed in the chest but my life will be spared.
ALSO, Mages are not always strong, usually you go in dungeon fully buffed but try to go there unbuffed eh, all classes have their own advantages in things.
If we should nerf a class, it should be cleric, they are powerbuilds whatever you do about it.
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Yeah, the traps are not worth the risk nor the reward, its been ages since i've been there.
But after getting instant killed by a trap to find some minor trinkets i just dont bother with those chests anymore..
Its surprising that Kir'thalax would have his minions trap some of the upper level chests but none of his own, maybe he hopes they'll all be dead before they even reach him :twisted:
As for the nerfing...find one of the 4794024 topics about it lads.
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they are powerbuilds whatever you do about it.
No they aren't. I managed to make a wuss of a cleric. :)
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they are powerbuilds whatever you do about it.
No they aren't. I managed to make a wuss of a cleric. :)
My cleric is not a powerbuild in the least. Especially with the exhaustion system.
Poor Kalan gets exhausted walking down the street. (Yes, it's an exaggeration, sue me.)
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Thats pretty rude, seesh!
I dont abuse anything Gelmar, i dont cheat i am using my familiar to attack teh chest with high possibility for the item to be destroyed in the chest but my life will be spared.
ALSO, Mages are not always strong, usually you go in dungeon fully buffed but try to go there unbuffed eh, all classes have their own advantages in things.
If we should nerf a class, it should be cleric, they are powerbuilds whatever you do about it.
So you proclaim, having your familiar take the punch of a deadly trap is all dandy and not evil at all? Not at all odd? :P
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Unuldor is badass evil BlackGuard if you dont remember...
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Thats pretty rude, seesh!
I dont abuse anything Gelmar, i dont cheat i am using my familiar to attack teh chest with high possibility for the item to be destroyed in the chest but my life will be spared.
ALSO, Mages are not always strong, usually you go in dungeon fully buffed but try to go there unbuffed eh, all classes have their own advantages in things.
If we should nerf a class, it should be cleric, they are powerbuilds whatever you do about it.
So you proclaim, having your familiar take the punch of a deadly trap is all dandy and not evil at all? Not at all odd? :P
I'd just have a Fort Save (DC 10 + Level) upon death of the familiar. Fail = Dead caster using his familiar as a meat shield.
~Rex
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Thats pretty rude, seesh!
I dont abuse anything Gelmar, i dont cheat i am using my familiar to attack teh chest with high possibility for the item to be destroyed in the chest but my life will be spared.
ALSO, Mages are not always strong, usually you go in dungeon fully buffed but try to go there unbuffed eh, all classes have their own advantages in things.
If we should nerf a class, it should be cleric, they are powerbuilds whatever you do about it.
So you proclaim, having your familiar take the punch of a deadly trap is all dandy and not evil at all? Not at all odd? :P
I'd just have a Fort Save (DC 10 + Level) upon death of the familiar. Fail = Dead caster using his familiar as a meat shield.
~Rex
Wow, that sounds awesome! :D
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Thats pretty rude, seesh!
I dont abuse anything Gelmar, i dont cheat i am using my familiar to attack teh chest with high possibility for the item to be destroyed in the chest but my life will be spared.
ALSO, Mages are not always strong, usually you go in dungeon fully buffed but try to go there unbuffed eh, all classes have their own advantages in things.
If we should nerf a class, it should be cleric, they are powerbuilds whatever you do about it.
So you proclaim, having your familiar take the punch of a deadly trap is all dandy and not evil at all? Not at all odd? :P
I'd just have a Fort Save (DC 10 + Level) upon death of the familiar. Fail = Dead caster using his familiar as a meat shield.
~Rex
Wow, that sounds awesome! :D
Why would a familiar dieing end up in your death also? Seems silly.
~ Chris
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Yeah, Familiars are like summons...why should caster die if summon dies? :lol:
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from the d20 SRD here:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm)
These are the 3.5 rules for familiar summoning/death. In PnP, an arcanist would never put their familiar in jeapordy.
Familiar
A sorcerer can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. A familiar is a magical beast that resembles a small animal and is unusually tough and intelligent. The creature serves as a companion and servant.
The sorcerer chooses the kind of familiar he gets. As the sorcerer advances in level, his familiar also increases in power.
If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the sorcerer, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a sorcerer’s experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiar’s demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.
A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time.
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Indeed not, a familiar is much more then a "summon" like you all say
It's like a druids animal companion, a partner in dusk and dawn.
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from the d20 SRD here:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm)
These are the 3.5 rules for familiar summoning/death. In PnP, an arcanist would never put their familiar in jeapordy.
Familiar
A sorcerer can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. A familiar is a magical beast that resembles a small animal and is unusually tough and intelligent. The creature serves as a companion and servant.
The sorcerer chooses the kind of familiar he gets. As the sorcerer advances in level, his familiar also increases in power.
If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the sorcerer, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a sorcerer’s experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiar’s demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.
A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time.
Yeah there used to be a GREAT adnd comic one shot for that. One false Move Wizard and your Familiar Gets It!
As for the rest of the issue, though NwN uses the mechanic of a summon, to bring out the familiar/animal companion (Rex will often use the term, "Bending over and Pooping out a Bear/Panther")....Unlike a Summon, a Familiar is "REAL", with a direct empathic link to it's Master. Hence, you get HURT, when it gets killed. Companions aren't linked but that thing's supposed to be your Buddy, not your meat shield. NEITHER, are "summons"......Summons, are completely different.
If one thing were to be seriously added to POTM, shoving Familiars closer to the Book (where they don't scale up to surpass PC's in ability and there is a REPERCUSSION, for treating your familiar like a lock pick/trap target) would be at the top of my list.
To get back on the topic, if you Open a chest with anything OTHER, then yourself, or your Lock picking buddy, it wouldn't bother me one bit if all that was in there was a bunch of smashed junk, and some coins.
~Rex
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Nope, I seen a lot of locked chest containing nothing but junk or nothing at all. :D
Its the deal of it. Like getting to the mall on a sale and find what you was to buy for like nothing is already sold out.
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You will rarely hear be seriously vocal in support of an issue, but getting locks and traps back into the hands of Rogues would be great.
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I noticed once bashing chests created smashed items in the chest, all the hard core chest bashers stopped - even though they implemented crowbars? (which didn't function like real crowbars, and only resulted in more junk, making only a smattering of people ever actually use them.)
Everyone just made rogue combos at that point. And the chests were get-in-able just the same, as far as the lockpicks.
The traps in the alhoon were made like that because, short of risking DEATH, everyone would just rather trip the traps than find a rogue with a high enough skill level to get those traps... and, with good reason. I can't tell you how many 12-15 level rogues couldn't even spot the traps, which they need to do before disarming them. I used to pull four or five rogues out of there a week who got popped by those traps.
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you know, there is a spell called 'find traps' that will reveal any and all traps. you will still need a rogue to disarm it though.
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you know, there is a spell called 'find traps' that will reveal any and all traps. you will still need a rogue to disarm it though.
Wish it did but it doesn't. Unless they changed it.
~Rex
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My god what is the search DC then? a 12 level rogue can see at minimum DC 35, why should it be DC 50?? Seriously how many PCs can detect that high?
There is only so many ability points you can put in WIS and INT when you are making a rogue or they will be terrible combatants, I tried to be decent all around at a lot of things instead of great at any one thing. I just find that everything in this module is balanced for the max. Its like the spot and search checks are always assuming you have alertness and sharp eyes and an ability modifier of +2. And on top of the min-max planning you have kept in mind since the beginning, while you are in the dungeon, put on your search gear and quaff down your fox cunning brew. And then stand around for enough rounds to insure you have rolled high enough. Well, so be it then, I'll leave my rogue to the side while I summon a dire boar to die. The feats are better used on other things in the long run.
Which after having witnessed the reflex DCs of some traps first hand, I find that despite my character eventually having +25 reflex saving throw, I really have to choose improved evasion as one of my 4 bonus feats, so that when i fail (a 33% possiblity at max level), I can survive. The whole set up is just a bit too uber, like a cruel joke. Especially considering the rewards inside the chest of death, and how they are in the middle of dungeons and not a boss treasure room, or anywhere you might assume the chest might be more difficult than the others encountered thus far.
I have to say, and I might have missed one, but I have been playing here a year and to my recollection, Only Suzannah Murphy was straight Rogue that high. If you want to see evidence that something is unbalanced, then that speaks for itself. Its not like Rogue is an unattractive or boring class to play. I have a blast playing mine.
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Not sure what you had to have to detect the traps... ask Dragos what level he started being able to see and disarm the traps, when I no longer had to pull him out after a trap obliterated him. :) Muahaha.
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I gave up when I managed to get rid of a small Nuclear Explosion level trap and the chest........
Was empty.
~Rex
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The trap was the prize. Woot.
Actually, I don't even know if you can disarm and sell those any more. I know a feeew places you can still rape traps for gold, though.
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The trap was the prize. Woot.
Actually, I don't even know if you can disarm and sell those any more. I know a feeew places you can still rape traps for gold, though.
Rather be able to make my own.
~Rex
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Off-Topic: Greatly punishing casters for their familiars death would be all well and good, IF the Familiars didn't have what I affectionately call 'Leeroy-AI', and a tendancy to charge at the nearest Ogre Berserker despite being a Raven or Pixie, and your characters best wishes to keep them safe.
On-topic again, if the traps are kept at lethal power, I'd much like to see the search DC lowered accordingly. That way, at least if you end up trying to just eat the trap into your HP, you only have yourself to blame, rather than just clicking it in the hopes that your full-ranked Search ability will be enough, and promptly being spread evenly across the cieling.
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Um to be honest if you have maxed out search and you cant see it then clearly your not high enough level to be thier. :?
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not true. You can have a maxed out search without any feats or ability modifiers, and its will max at +43 at Level 20, so a +50 search will be ~success not possible~
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you know, you could grab skill focus and greater skill focus? if i remember right, it give 9 points in the skill.
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My rogue can see the traps, and he only has a 30ish search. :P
He can disarm them too!
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Yep, so can mine, who also has a thirtie-ish, but there are some random traps in Alhoon's that i am convinced has a much higher DC.
And Rixula, you noticed I said without feats?
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*Read* Oooo i see. :shock:
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you know, you could grab skill focus and greater skill focus? if i remember right, it give 9 points in the skill.
Skill focus gives +2
Greater skill focus gives another +2 instead of the +4
Well that is atleast what I was told, might only be that way for hide and move silent skill.
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So, a character with max skill ranks in search, an 18 INT (achievable by buff maybe), Skill Focus (Search) and Greater Skill Focus (Search), and Sharp Eyes
will have a +33 modifier on the rolls and a natural 20 will see DC 53 and below. This is why if the DC of some checks is in the 50s as speculated in this thread, I believe its too high. How many characters are going to have 3 feats dedicated to seeing traps and secret doors, you think? And even better question is, will this character even be able to convince others of his use as a trap finder only, because the build is likely to be a combat light one.
Went through Alhoon's again, but it was low spawn and no traps of death were there, so it appears completely random as Søren said.
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Aha, so this threat is clear now then?! :lol: