Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: peluscious on July 03, 2009, 03:40:12 AM
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Would it be possible and good to change fear to, instead to make you run stupidly and do nothing while you are hit in a corner, give you a stupendous penalty to ac and ab, great enough to make you want to run away to the nearest exit, or try to pathetically defend yourself, just like the PnP fear?
I don't know, maybe -20 to attack and armor class.
EDIT: corrected some typos.
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[signs the petition]
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In other words, the ability to run away because there's no possible way you could defend yourself due to fear penalties?
I like it: Where do I sign? :mrgreen:
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Yeah, the kind of running away where you have a chance to live, not the kind of running away where you invoke twenty attacks of opportunity and get spammed by the fear aura the whole time so it never goes away.
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Lets get this for Turn Undead as well?
even -10 to attacks (Like Bigbies interposing hand) or simply a Daze Effect to prevent attacking would be a cool alternative to running into the nearest wall repeatedly.
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Yeah, the kind of running away where you have a chance to live, not the kind of running away where you invoke twenty attacks of opportunity and get spammed by the fear aura the whole time so it never goes away.
I like it even more with in-depth explanation. Where do I sign?
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Yeah, the kind of running away where you have a chance to live, not the kind of running away where you invoke twenty attacks of opportunity and get spammed by the fear aura the whole time so it never goes away.
I like it even more with in-depth explanation. Where do I sign?
I don't know, but I'd like to sign this thing too.
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This pleases me. And Osiris. DO MY BIDDING.
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Just to be formal:
It would still be expected that the victim ran away, instead of standing there playing tough just because the said person want to look badass. Or when the caster casts fear to get rid of someone and the someone is an annoying bastard that wants to keep bugging people and watching and listening to what he/she shouldn't.
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Really, you should still be able to melee counter attacks, and take attacks of opportunity, but should still move away in the manner the spell does now.
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I love this idea. Some arbitarily high reduction to all your abilities ( Arcane Spell Failure 100%, -20 AB, -15 AC ) whilst retaining the ability to run away yourself, instead of the current 'Run past five enemies for AoO's, then get stuck on a wall' syndrome.
Just to be formal:
It would still be expected that the victim ran away, instead of standing there playing tough just because the said person want to look badass. Or when the caster casts fear to get rid of someone and the someone is an annoying bastard that wants to keep bugging people and watching and listening to what he/she shouldn't.
This is a fair point.... Though in my experience, I've feared people who have REALLY been annoying me during a very critical time fighting off a horde of Malar panthers from a town as they sit mocking me, only to have them come back and act as if nothing had happened. If they want to be the uber fearless champion of everything, they will be, everything else be damned.
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Sounds good, as long the people or beings that are under the spells influence RP the effect. But then again, how they would know in middle of heated battle or scene that they have been fear'd? Maybe leave the fear visual visible but allow movement
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From what I remember, when I used to play Pen and Paper Ravenloft (from the boxed set), there was a distinct difference between Fear checks and Horror checks.
Fear checks were taken whenever your character was faced with a powerful monster that could kill you.
Horror checks were taken whenever your character was faced with some sort of unnatural being (for example, you walk into a room with a pool filled with blood and there is a zombie that removes his head and holds it in his hands while groaning).
In many cases, a horror and a fear check were taken together. And there was even a table that gave different effects on your character depending on the dice roll. Our DM did the dice roll behind his partition so I don't know if he just picked one or actually went by the dice roll. I don't remember them all, but I know that being frozen in in place in fear was one of them. Running away in a total panic in any random direction away from the threat was another one of them. There were many more.
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From what I remember, when I used to play Pen and Paper Ravenloft (from the boxed set), there was a distinct difference between Fear checks and Horror checks.
Fear checks were taken whenever your character was faced with a powerful monster that could kill you.
Horror checks were taken whenever your character was faced with some sort of unnatural being (for example, you walk into a room with a pool filled with blood and there is a zombie that removes his head and holds it in his hands while groaning).
In many cases, a horror and a fear check were taken together. And there was even a table that gave different effects on your character depending on the dice roll. Our DM did the dice roll behind his partition so I don't know if he just picked one or actually went by the dice roll. I don't remember them all, but I know that being frozen in in place in fear was one of them. Running away in a total panic in any random direction away from the threat was another one of them. There were many more.
You're talking about Fear/Horror/Madness checks, which were part of Ravenloft PnP but don't work here so much.
In PnP, if I recall right, Fear checks were actually a Fortitude and BAB based save, because it made more sense that a Barbarian would be able to stare down a huge monster than a weedy little Bard.
Horror was a Will save, as was Madness. Madness being the constant and prolonged exposure to something unnatural and horrifying, like having been walking through a crypt with blood oozing from the walls for the past ten minutes, welling up around your feet as undead hands rise up from it and try to pull you down.
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Yea, thanks for the clarification. It's been a while since I played. Back then it was 2nd edition rules too. The details are a bit fuzzy.
But I do remember that there were variable effects if you failed your horror or fear checks. There wasn't just a one size fits all reaction. The table listed at least 4 different possible reactions for a failed horror check and 4 others for a failed fear check. But, of course Pen and Paper is way more flexible than a video game. But anyhow, I don't know how difficult it would be to implement, but it would be nice to have something akin to the original Ravenloft rules for fear/horror checks.
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Yea, thanks for the clarification. It's been a while since I played. Back then it was 2nd edition rules too. The details are a bit fuzzy.
But I do remember that there were variable effects if you failed your horror or fear checks. There wasn't just a one size fits all reaction. The table listed at least 4 different possible reactions for a failed horror check and 4 others for a failed fear check. But, of course Pen and Paper is way more flexible than a video game. But anyhow, I don't know how difficult it would be to implement, but it would be nice to have something akin to the original Ravenloft rules for fear/horror checks.
I THINK that Fear had a disease-like progression table, from taking a slight penalty, to a heavy penalty, to running for the nearest escape screaming, and a step up on your Madness line.
Don't take my word on it, mind.
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I had tried a server there the fear effects had been changed. Ever creature of a super natural nature that was a higher level would automaticly cause a fear check. If you failed then one of four things happend.
1: Your fine and you attack like normal
2: You feel fear to the point that your suffer a ac, attack and will saves. The will saves I think if other monsters come charging in.
3: You run from the monster. Only happend when a low level was in a place he really souldn't be.
4: You were frozen with fear and rooted to the spot.
It made things really interesting.
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Agree with this topic defiantly. The way fear is now doesn't make you feared, it somehow makes your character slightly retarded..
~ Chris
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Interesting suggestions here. It always annoyed me that you bolt in some direction after failing a fear check and eventually bump into a wall or corner where you'll stay until you get pummeled to death.
When some kind of Daze effect is applied, like suggested earlier, a player still retains navigational control. Which is very useful since pathfinding in NwN isnt always optimal and it really sucks to die because of that.
Another suggestion: after failing a fear check and having some kind of penalty applied, make another Will save. Fail that save and you'll drop your weapon and shield but get a bonus to movement rate for a short while.
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I swear I've suggested something like this ages ago. It'd be great to actually let someone be in control of running away in fear. :)
The only suggestion I would make though is to keep the default-effect for when the spell is cast on NPCs. This is because the AI won't just run away with that effect. The spell would basically become an uber-taunt in PvM.
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Sounds good, as long the people or beings that are under the spells influence RP the effect. But then again, how they would know in middle of heated battle or scene that they have been fear'd? Maybe leave the fear visual visible but allow movement
Leaving the fear visual would probably be best.
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As much as I like the ideas here, Could we not just accept the game mechanics as they are instead of endlessly trying to re-write NWN into a different game?
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As much as I like the ideas here, Could we not just accept the game mechanics as they are instead of endlessly trying to re-write NWN into a different game?
Normally, I'd tend to agree with you. But I think that horse left the barn a looong, looong time ago.
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As much as I like the ideas here, Could we not just accept the game mechanics as they are instead of endlessly trying to re-write NWN into a different game?
Normally, I'd tend to agree with you. But I think that horse left the barn a looong, looong time ago.
No it didn't , see, it tried to leave the barn but got stuck in the corner and just stood there with black skulls flying over its head.
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I had tried a server there the fear effects had been changed. Ever creature of a super natural nature that was a higher level would automatically cause a fear check. If you failed then one of four things happened.
1: Your fine and you attack like normal
2: You feel fear to the point that your suffer a ac, attack and will saves. The will saves I think if other monsters come charging in.
3: You run from the monster. Only happened when a low level was in a place he really shouldn't be.
4: You were frozen with fear and rooted to the spot.
It made things really interesting.
It was very interesting and much better than the NWN fear, with my epic fail skill I tended to get option 4 a lot!
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As much as I like the ideas here, Could we not just accept the game mechanics as they are instead of endlessly trying to re-write NWN into a different game?
Normally, I'd tend to agree with you. But I think that horse left the barn a looong, looong time ago.
No it didn't , see, it tried to leave the barn but got stuck in the corner and just stood there with black skulls flying over its head.
Very clever. :clap:
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I personally don't like the idea of having an AC so low that when you did RP running away in horror, and got AOP's on you anyways, every one of them hit you. There are some pretty extreme monsters that can cause fear sometimes, and in this case, fear, would also mean your death.
As far as PvP went, this would also be a little over powered. While I don't completly enjoy running around like an idiot getting AOP's on me from the fear spell, at least you still have the AC to keep from dying to quickly. More times than not, the fear spell wears off and you continue onward. But in this case, I could see alot of people dying and then coming back and saying something about it.
My vote, leave it be how it is.
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As far as PvP went, this would also be a little over powered. While I don't completly enjoy running around like an idiot getting AOP's on me from the fear spell, at least you still have the AC to keep from dying to quickly. More times than not, the fear spell wears off and you continue onward. But in this case, I could see alot of people dying and then coming back and saying something about it.
My experience is very different than yours.
Usually they keep fearing me again, and my AC let me die slowly.
But i respect your opinion.
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..I just had a small epiphany, perhaps it won't seem noteworthy to others, but lets try it : what if Fear spells/effects rendered the same effect as being Antagonized? If it could additionally "stop" any combat actions, that'd be even better. You could then choose to run, cast a spell, keep attacking, all with penalties appropriate to being very very afraid.
Role play... is options!!
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I don't like it.
If you're really really afraid, you run.
Unless you're cornered. Then you fight like a little girl.
That's the PnP version of fear and that's how i see real life fear.
Except that cornered things sometimes becomes deadly. But i don't think its necessary IG.
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The current NWN fear, especially when applied to fear auras, is more deadly than hold spells or paralyzing attacks, because at least with those you're not also giving up constant attacks of opportunity.
I think the blind and silenced effects applied when you get knocked unconscious would work well for fear, if combined with a hefty AB penalty. You're still helpless, and quite vulnerable, but you could at least pick tthe direction you run away in.
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Blindness?
I don't agree.
But instead of silenced, maybe something like 50% spell failure.
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Yay! I mention how crappy fear is, and people talk about it.
If I mentioned some angled plate armor, will someone give it to Gorn? He'd like it!
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Ahaha. No, give me the angled plate first!
Back on topic,
I'd say a -10 AB, and -5 will save would be very decent. It'd still be useful in PvP as well if you use it correctly.
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I still think a big penalty to everything. Otherwise some people will stay fighting as a tank.
If you get a penalty to everything, you will want to run. The advantage will be a decent run, not the stupid path the ai chooses.
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The blindness would be to prevent targetted spells and missile attacks by a character under the "fear" effect. It also simulates a bit of the headless chicken effect the current fear effect gives, in that you could well run into a group of monsters or trap while trying to get away from the first one.
It needs to still leave you in a helpless state, but my suggestion gives at least some abilty to control the direction you run. Also, being blind, if you run a short distance and then stop, you and your character both won't know how close the creature/caster is to you, adding an element of unknown to it, instead of OOC frustration, which is all the current effect causes.
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I agree and would like to see this change for bolth fear and turning. However Ac should only be lowered to flat footed. The Ab penalty sounds good.
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Alright. You convinced me about the blindness.
I agree with you.
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how would the blindfight work with that? 2 of my characters have it.
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yeah... there's that to consider.
but anyway, nobody should fight while in fear.
Maybe it could work anyway. Its like you're fighting with your eyes closed because of the fear. If you got blind fighting you can do it better.
Anyway, with a huge penalty to AB, it probably will be useless.
I still think a penalty to AC is needed to avoid people tanking while under fear effect.
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Blindness is a good suggestion for RP, it would be one situation where people don't "remember" seeing anything ; they were too panicked.
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Why shouldn't you fight while in fear? People fight while peeing themselves all the time. Not very strategically usually, but fear doesn't just mean you run away.
And, I happen to hate blindness, and I don't think it makes much sense. I *still* get blinded if I come close to dying, but then get healed at the same moment. Is that supposed to happen? It's irritating as hell. Full hit points, blind and deaf and all that other dead stuff. *Really* irritating. Anyway, off the topic.
How about something like this... fear, for the duration of the effect, gives you the AB, etc penalties. Every round, you get a will check, which decreases in difficulty until the fear wears off. If you fail the will check, then you flee randomly for one round, as per the normal fear. But next round, you get another will check. Fail, you flee again, pass, you can fight (with the AB/Etc decrease.) This happens until the fear effect ends, as per whatever normal rules for the spell/aura/whatever.
Least then, it would simulate you getting less scared over time, and less willing to run unwillingly around in a circle getting the crap beaten out of of you.
And, god, no more blindness. Bleh. People remember seeing things when panicked. Often, not what they want to remember, but in much more vivid detail.
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Why shouldn't you fight while in fear? People fight while peeing themselves all the time. Not very strategically usually, but fear doesn't just mean you run away.
Because it would keep it more like the standard fear, and because i like to think that fear in ravenloft is worse than RL fear.
And, in PnP there is a feat that reduces how much fear you feel. We don't have this here, so i think it would be nice to keep it the run-for-your-life kind.
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Making fear cause blindness just takes one spell with a crappy effect ( ----> :ohnoes:) that doesn't make a lot of sense (and is really irritating) and tries to fix it by adding *another* spell effect that isn't quite as irritating, but makes even less sense.
You should remember what you see. The spell doesn't cause blindness. And there is no amount of cheese that will come out of people being feared, if blindness is included. Why not just add daze, with the rationale that when you're scared, you're "sort of in a daze?" It's just shoddy logic. Fear is supposed to make you run. Cool. Fine. How about having /some/ sort of control over where you run? I actually wouldn't mind the fear if all you could do is run, but you could CONTROL where you ran. There's nothing that makes less sense than having your character run towards what it's scared of, then away, around in circles, all with no control. I think you *do* sometimes run amok when you're scared, maybe to hide behind a wall or under a table or something, but then after a few moments sets in, you have a choice to do something else. Run elsewhere in a more controlled fashion (if the thing comes closer), or fight (if you grow some balls.) Or, maybe you panic again, and lock up, run in circles, etc. I still think it would be better to just have the penalties the whole time, and get will checks to steadily increase your chances of controlling your actions with each passing turn.
Oh, but wait... I guess I don't care, because PfE trumps them all! :cheer:
PfE FTW.
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I really hate the lack of diversity about fear as it is now - for the reasons already given here.
Though, forcing the victim to run is not per sé a bad thing...
The real trouble is that the fear effect forces the victim simply to run - no matter whether it even increases the peril.
Maybe there's a way to solve that? Is it possible to implement a mechanism that makes someone under fear effect to run away from anything hostile and prevent it to approach it?
To me, it seems that there are at least 2 conditions required.
1 - run
2 - cower in fear
Run may be the default condition resulting from fear. A sucessfull recovery check reduces it to the second condition. But how can we solve the problem with AOOs until death? Make any melee attack on the victim automatically restore the "run"-condition to "cower in fear".
As for the "cower in fear"-condition, i would not make it worse than it is in PnP - though it is not possible to simulate that in NWN. So what? A penalty that is worse than flat footed seems ridiculous to me. Yes, that favors tanks with no Dex-bonus at all, but that does not really bother me. What is more important is the offensive potential.
Arcane spell failure of 90% sounds as fair to me, as does a -10 BAB modifier. That does not make success impossible, but the risk of trying usually outweighs the potential benefits. However, it allows a heroic last-stand (yes, the complete opposite of what fear should be - but think about it)
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I thought about daze, but I'm pretty sure you can't run while dazed.
Blindness would simply represent your single minded intent to flee. You'd essentially be oblivious to anything not right beside you trying to kill you, for the duration of the spell. It might not be a great alternative, but it seems a reasonable alternative to watching your character run back and forth like an idiot until they die.
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There's nothing more heroic than defeating something with -10 AB and -10 AC.
And 90% spell failure. As long as it is 50% or bigger, i'm ok with it.
Actually, as long as we don't be stupid in fear instead of running in fear i good enough for me.
No matter what penalty put in place.
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Fear is very tricky thing really. If you get feared you have to rp it out, its not gonna work that you suddenly get -10 to ab and AC when theres no rp backing it up you know what i mean?
at first people might be all "aaahhh iiiihhh run away!?!" but soon it just turns into "meh, penalties again" and the characters avoid the monster for the duration of fear. Now you thinkin that what am i babbling about again, thats the way it should go right?
well yes, but it turns from Ic to OOC very, very fast. therefore fear is one thing that almost has to be forced upon players, otherwise it just wont work, not with this current generation of superheroes.
Also fear is shouldnt be able to block with PfA since fear is one of the basic survival instincts and everyone feels fear, BUT, that is not the issue here. lets not talk about that, we already have 9 pages of it :D
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You do have a point.
Is it possible to change only aura fear?
Or only NPC fear?
Or yet, imrpove the AI of the running moron that our characters turn into?
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Problem I see with the idea is that if you're able to constrain yourself and run freely then the AI won't be able to keep up most of the time. Lag and bad nwn pathfinding makes it really easy to dodge npc's in places with containers / doors / placeables and the entire thing would really make the mobs that use fear weaker. The entire thought of the effect is that you're supposed to panic and either stand frozen or dart randomly around.
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The issue raised is "Is it realistic?" though. Often enough a panicked person won't stand in one spot frozen, they'll run around with hands raised in the air. That doesn't mean their going to go and run into walls, corner themselves, or run right back into the middle of monsters that feared them in the first place. If some sort of compromise can be made with the spell, that won't end up with it being abused, that could rid the standard effect with fear would be a decent change in my opinion.
Clicked post too soon. Fear isn't supposed to be an "I win" button, rather a "Crowd control" spell. Disable a few party members so the rest can be picked off. If a character is dodging around things then that's what anybody would do. Try to get the hell away from whatever is chasing him.
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well it could be cool if your fear behaviour would depend on a roll thats been made upon getting fear'd. that way, something like these kind of effects could take place (these are just suggestions)
depending on the roll vs some skill/ ability mod/ or something (hey perhaps against discipline? )
- Fear'd person will go into a berzerk kind of state after seeing their friend getting brutally killed or so, this person would just bash the monster for the duration effect, unable to do anything else
- Victim would panick and flee automaticly towards the nearest exit, perhaps it could be scripted to travel there automaticly? Little like npc's waltz around?
- Victim would fall into a lock-down state, he or she would block out everything thats happening around him/her and just stand still
- Then there could be that random direction, total panic running
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That's more the effects of confusion, Engelfire, but it's an interesting suggestion. Maybe if they took the confusion spell as a base, and tweaked it so 50-75% of the time you ran around, part of the time you simply stood there, and occasionally (5-10% maybe) you lashed out at whatever was nearest. As long as it was still largely skewed to run/stand immobile, I think it would be worth trying.
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ah yeah you are right :oops:
in any case, fear has many faces and some variations to that current fear would be nice
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-15 AB
75% Spell Failure
Flat Footed (If possible, else just -6 Dex or -3 Dodge AC)
Melee people can't fight properly, casters are too scared to cast, you lose your ability to defend yourself as well as you should.
A tank can still hold the line whilst feared, but his fear will prevent him from being as effective.
Can't think of any class that would still be able to function normally under these conditions.
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Problem still remains, you're still in control only with penalties. You can run around in circles dodging enemies until it wears off, and that's hardly how you'd react while panicked.
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From nwnwiki
Fear (spell)
Spell level: bard 3; sorcerer/wizard 4
Innate level: 3
School: necromancy
Descriptor: fear
Components: verbal, somatic
Range: medium (20 meters)
Area of effect: large (5 meter radius)
Duration: 1 round / level
Save: will negates
Spell resistance: yes
Additional counterspells: remove fear
Description: Affected creatures are consumed with mind-numbing fear that overrides all other actions. The affected creatures run away from all those they do not consider allies.
RUN AWAY, not in every possible direction and potentially into traps, more monsters, a bugged area behind a doorway etc while the monster is still beating on you
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Of course there can be exploits.
Let's hope people don't do it. Anyway, its better than the way it is now.
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Problem still remains, you're still in control only with penalties. You can run around in circles dodging enemies until it wears off, and that's hardly how you'd react while panicked.
...not without being exhausted! Yay! It's good.
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Problem still remains, you're still in control only with penalties. You can run around in circles dodging enemies until it wears off, and that's hardly how you'd react while panicked.
If I was panicked, I'd be running around and avoiding whatever was scaring me. :shock:
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NWN tends to feel that the most effective way to escape the object of your fear is to bounce around, inevitably heading towards more enemies, before running back to the first, then kind of running away some more into a wall.
Fear in this sense is the act of self-preservation. You do everything you can to keep yourself alive, caring not in the slightest about how much pain and suffering it brings to people you call your close friends. Paladins are immune for good reason, because they can't even consider doing that.
'Is it cowardice for a falling man to grab at a rope? No. It is instinct. And you will see that every man will succumb to this. Resistance is impossible, it is as much a part of you as your blinking eyes, your breathing lungs, your beating heart. You would sacrifice whatever you needed for that safety.'
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Problem still remains, you're still in control only with penalties. You can run around in circles dodging enemies until it wears off, and that's hardly how you'd react while panicked.
If I was panicked, I'd be running around and avoiding whatever was scaring me. :shock:
It's not merely panicked.. it's close to insane panic...there is no place for rational thinkig... you are running blind as in amok... you would try to climb a slippery wall... scratch through a wooden wall, etc. It's like madness... your mind is turned off.
To understand what a real fear is, you would have to do some studies, but best examples of how people act irrationally when in very stressing and frightening situation is when they are about to have a dangerous car accident or some crash. Some freeze in place, some do stupid things which can do even more harm and there are many other examples where it clearly shows that the mind is turned off and such a paniced person does not think rationally and loses an orientation in a terrain.
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*sigh*
That's the kind of course of discussion that usually leads to no solution.
Is there any problem with agreeing upon the simple statement that "fear" results in "avoiding the source of danger"?
After all, this is still DnD - and the game has rules for fear as well as the supernatural or magical fear.
I see no reason to complicate it even more - if the mechanics mirror the rules as they are, i would be happy with it.
Roleplaying is no justification to roll for successfully going to the bathroom after all... And neither do you need rules or complex game mechanics for it.
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I see no reason to complicate it even more - if the mechanics mirror the rules as they are, i would be happy with it.
The current mechanics don't mirror the rules. In PnP if you're feared, your character would, barring anything dangerous in the way, probably run directly to the door they came in through until they thought they were safe.
In NWN, you'll probably run towards the door you came in through, then run sideways a bit, then run past the monster that feared you, getting an AoO, then back towards the door a little, then get stuck in a wall and another AoO....
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The current mechanics don't mirror the rules.
Exactly. I should be more precise about that... i see no reason for changing anything beyond fixing the mechanics to suit the fear rules as they are intended to work.
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Thing is, there's no way to reliably have a character run away from the danger without giving control to the player.
If control is given to the player, it's possible to ignore the RP factors and carry on fighting despite the Fear effect.
Hence, there needs to be a reason the character cannot continue effectively in combat, to keep the Fear effect, well, effective.
A reduction of AB and Spell Failure of some arbitrarily high amount would do this.
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Thing is, there's no way to reliably have a character run away from the danger without giving control to the player.
If control is given to the player, it's possible to ignore the RP factors and carry on fighting despite the Fear effect.
Hence, there needs to be a reason the character cannot continue effectively in combat, to keep the Fear effect, well, effective.
A reduction of AB and Spell Failure of some arbitrarily high amount would do this.
Just apply a daze effect on the character for the duration of the fear spell. They can't attack in any form, and they move at a walking speed. I doubt anybodies going to stick around for long with that.
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Maybe daze without the slowness? Just make you unable to attack or something?
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Maybe daze without the slowness? Just make you unable to attack or something?
That would work too, and I'd prefer it.
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Yeah, I think retaining your speed is somewhat important.
After all it's 'Run away' not 'Calmly walk off'.