Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: kenpen on June 05, 2009, 07:19:55 PM
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Shouldn't they be simple? Half the reason guns became so popular, and remain so, was that they were easy to use. The other half was their ability to basically bypass armor by blowing huge holes in it. :-P
Seems to be a real limiting shame that almost no one is going to be able to use them, and then - when they do - they're still going to get a face full of explosion half the time. There's not much to a gun. Put powder in. Put ball in. Pack. Point. Pull trigger. Certainly easier than a crossbow. I realize it's exotic just to keep people from using them without buying a feat, but that doesn't make a bit of sense to me.
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Gun is a pretty simple weapon, i mean like the crossbow who was invented because they required very little training to use unlike a bow. I would have to lean toward simple weapon.
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At the time, they weren't so simple and are pretty exotic since it's the most advanced technology you'll find for war at the time.
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Guns are Exotic weapons in DnD.
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Simplicity of use was definitely the main reason guns became the weapon of choice, but this was mostly in the context of massed armies. You could teach someone to load a gun in an afternoon, put them in a rank with a few hundred others, and have them launch wave after wave of lead at the enemy for a pretty decent effect. Thing is, between misfires and weapon inaccuracy, it took quite a few technological improvements before guns were really effective in a one-on-one situation without a lot of practice. These aren't Glocks or Mausers, these are (probably) relatively unreliable unrifled matchlocks and wheellocks -- flintlocks didn't become popular until the late 1600s, and rifling wasn't common until the 1800s. (And well-machined sights weren't developed till around the same time.) So to use them accurately would definitely take a lot of practice, and I think justifies the Exotic feat. (I'd rather see a Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) instead, but Exotic does the trick too.)
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Shooting a gun may be easy, but i think the reloading and theory behind guns is what makes it exotic to someone from the medieval times.
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Guns were the sole reason Samuri as a culture nearly became extinct. -Anyone- could fire a pistol with no formal training. Fact is a person can't fire a gun, or even hold it unless they have the Exotic feat due to game mechanics.
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You can hold a gun. But who can load one correctly? I seriously doubt many here can load a black powder gun correctly. This was a technology alien to those in that time.
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Not necessarily. Just because they didn't grow up with the technology being as ubiquitous as it is for us, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to adapt to its use. People are pretty clever at adapting to new technology, and always have been, even if we'd normally think of them as not being as sophisticated as we are now. Medieval Europeans had coal, petroleum, and rooms full of floating sawdust, so the concept of flammables and explosives wouldn't necessarily be that exotic to them.
I'm no gun nut, but I've had the chance to fire a few muzzleloaders. In my experience loading and firing one is ludicrously easy (though obviously not as much as breechloaders), but I had a lot harder time shooting accurately than with a modern rifle design. (And the muzzleloaders in question were rifled with accurate sights, not the cruder muskets they're probably selling in Dementlieu...)
ETA: Loading a gun isn't exactly an intuitive process, but once you learn the basic steps, doing them quickly is just a matter of practice. It'll never be as fast as a breechloader with a modern action or a trained archer loosing arrows, but it's also easier to teach.
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In my mind, a simple weapon is one that anyone can pick up and use without instruction. Martial weapons require a bit of training to use effectively. Exotics are specialized weapons that require unique training to use effectively. Training that isn't commonly found. Therefore, I agree that guns are exotic weapons.
And we aren't talking about adapting here, how readily someone will learn how to use a gun without instruction and tutoring. You used black powder guns after receiving instruction. Good for you. You are now trained in Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Muzzleloaders).
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Oh.. They have those in another domain now. Ideas, ideas- *Cough* Right, staying on-topic. Keep guns as exotic. Agreed with all the points raised by Ethinos.
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Just another benefit of playing the anti-specialist specialist fighter.
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Totally agree. Exotic all the way, on many levels. Now can I have my Lawgiver holy shot gun please ?
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I agree with Ethinos.
In my mind, a simple weapon is one that anyone can pick up and use without instruction. Martial weapons require a bit of training to use effectively. Exotics are specialized weapons that require unique training to use effectively. Training that isn't commonly found. Therefore, I agree that guns are exotic weapons.
But I do wish you could use an exotic weapon without the feat.. use it at terrible disadvantage, but still use it.
Also, Samuri did use firearms. Their downfall came when the Japanese governement sought to reform. Taking power away from feudal states and dissolution of samuri status was the begining of the end for them.
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I agree with Ethinos.
In my mind, a simple weapon is one that anyone can pick up and use without instruction. Martial weapons require a bit of training to use effectively. Exotics are specialized weapons that require unique training to use effectively. Training that isn't commonly found. Therefore, I agree that guns are exotic weapons.
But I do wish you could use an exotic weapon without the feat.. use it at terrible disadvantage, but still use it.
Also, Samuri did use firearms. Their downfall came when the Japanese governement sought to reform. Taking power away from feudal states and dissolution of samuri status was the begining of the end for them.
Many killed themselves in protest. Oh and i think it should remain exotic.
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Many Samurai considered it a dishonorable weapon as well, and it wasn't really accepted until Nobunaga Oda used them to such great effect to completely anihillate the Takeda Calvary with his famous double row strategy - a tactic that would later be used by Napoleon and all modern armies, playing soldiers in two or three rows, having the front row fire, the backrow reload
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I totally agree with having them be exotic weapons, it is canon for that to be the case. 8)
Also, I am amazed that I am not alone in my knowledge of and interest in Japanese history. Cool.
(oh and just as Kung Fu Orc spelled it, the correct spelling is SAMURAI :)
(Off topic but, my wife is a decendent of Saigo Takamori, for those of you that enjoy reading of samurai, he was one of the most famous. Check him out)
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We're nerds, buddy, odds are most of us have watched Seven Samurai and played at least one Koei videogame (Samurai Warriors ftw)
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Shouldn't they be simple? Half the reason guns became so popular, and remain so, was that they were easy to use. The other half was their ability to basically bypass armor by blowing huge holes in it. :-P
Seems to be a real limiting shame that almost no one is going to be able to use them, and then - when they do - they're still going to get a face full of explosion half the time. There's not much to a gun. Put powder in. Put ball in. Pack. Point. Pull trigger. Certainly easier than a crossbow. I realize it's exotic just to keep people from using them without buying a feat, but that doesn't make a bit of sense to me.
Early firearms could be stopped by full-plate, if at range. And the main firearm during this 'time period,' would most likely be a primitive matchlock arquebus, a weapon with considerable loading time, poor accuracy, and unreliability -effective only in massed volleys. For these reasons this weapon would absolutely take very specific training to use, and is not widespread outside of the 'advanced' domains, thus it is exotic. Also, to my knowledge, at the moment there are only pistols available due to animation problems, but we're working on resolving that issue :)
Oh, and
Off topic but, my wife is a decendent of Saigo Takamori, for those of you that enjoy reading of samurai, he was one of the most famous. Check him out
Wasn't he played by Tom Cruise in "The Last Samurai?" :lol: :roll: Good movie, but stupid decision, it's as stupid as if they made another movie about the American Revolution and had George Washington played by a Japanese man.
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Actually the Tom Cruise character in Last Samurai WAS a Gaijin... but the dude was French, not American.
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Deadliest Warrior, did Pirate Vs Knight, where you can see, Firearms of the time, vs Armor of the time. Catch it on Spike.com .
Now, as a Trained firearm person, at bot the military and competitive levels, I can tell you this. Any Idiot, can kill someone with a gun. Any idiot, can also kill you with a stick, or a rock. But untrained idiots, Kill themselves with guns far more often then they do the other person they want to kill.
This is ESPECIALLY true in black power (we had an incident during the last black powder season here, with rookie retards). So while yes, you needed LESS innate ability to use a gun, you still need the training, to be a competent user of it as a weapon.
So it costs a feat. And exotic makes sense as the feat for it as well because that's where it's "niche" is. Can't fault the issue of having to burn a feat for it, just because Bioware didn't understand how weapon proficiencies work in DnD. Even in PnP it's Exotic unless coming from a culture where it's standardized, in which case it becomes Martial. And just because it's Martial didn't make it easy to learn, unless you were one of the classes that got ALL martial weapons as a class feature (fighter etc). Otherwise, everyone else. One Feat One Weapon.
~Rex
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Deadliest Warrior, did Pirate Vs Knight, where you can see, Firearms of the time, vs Armor of the time. Catch it on Spike.com .
~Rex
I'm addicted to that show.
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Who won the pirate verus knight?
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I'll give you a hint - the one with 200 more years of technological development.
Anyway, yeah, basically the bottom line is that Guns=Exotic in PnP, and they are uncommon weapons.
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I'd say yes, in regular DnD. But you've got all sorts of technology in Ravenloft that's not available in "normal" DnD. Heck, I never played Spelljammer. Anyone know what the blasters and various weapons were there?
Anyone, don't really care, since I prefer other methods of murdering people. But, I hope I'm wrong and the guns are worth blowing the feat. I imagine they'll be here more for novelty than anything else. Sad, but that's life. ;)
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The guns are fun and worth burning a feat if it fits the character.
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Deadliest Warrior, did Pirate Vs Knight, where you can see, Firearms of the time, vs Armor of the time. Catch it on Spike.com .
~Rex
I'm addicted to that show.
That episode does show though, the difficulties of Firearms of the time and the fact that they took serious training to use. That Blunderbuss was the killer though. Knight really wasn't all that impressed with the rest of the pirate weaponry.
~Rex
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I love the campy premise of the show. It's compelling. :mrgreen:
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I love the campy premise of the show. It's compelling. :mrgreen:
Yeah I was disappointed in our Green Berets in the Green Berets vs Spetznaz episode. The Spetznaz, looked like they could go back to work any second, our guys, looked like they just got off the bar stool at the local BW3's. On aftermath for that one, they brought in the Spartan Expert (because the experts from the episode wouldn't go face to face with the russian guy), also a former Green Beret, who actually looked like he could go back to work if he had to. He made an interesting point though that the Spetznaz guy agreed with. The Green Berets, are the Insurgent Instructors you drop behind enemy lines to teach native forces and advise in larger scope actions. A more fair match up (and one I believe we would win), would have been Delta, or Seal vs Spetznaz.
That episode though was another great one showcasing Gun Skill, and Training, and how much of a difference training makes. Now if Bioware had been smart and just let you equip Untrained weaponry, at the standard PnP deduction to AB, then the entire thread would be a moot point. Joe Schmo could use a gun at Joe Schmo level, while Joe Trained can use a gun to take the heads of matchsticks on the run at 40 feet. Unfortunently, well, bioware. *shrug*
~Rex
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I'd say yes, in regular DnD. But you've got all sorts of technology in Ravenloft that's not available in "normal" DnD. Heck, I never played Spelljammer. Anyone know what the blasters and various weapons were there?
Anyone, don't really care, since I prefer other methods of murdering people. But, I hope I'm wrong and the guns are worth blowing the feat. I imagine they'll be here more for novelty than anything else. Sad, but that's life. ;)
I've played some Spelljammer (though it was some years ago), and read a number of the sourcebooks, and there actually aren't any blasters if I recall rightly. Magic was the 'blaster' of the campaign. :)
They depended mostly on their ships, with catapults and ballista, augmented with magic.
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Primative forms of firearms WOULD bounce off of plate armor (armorers would prove that their plate was bullet 'proof' by firing a shot into it) but by the advent of the musket, it just couldn't keep up. Make no mistake though Armor was definatly still important until the Napoleonic age.
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I can't believe I missed this one:
http://www.spike.com/full-episode/yakuza-vs-mafia/31958
I want to see Mafia against Maori. Now that's a matchup. One side in suits and the other side in fig leaves. :lol:
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I love the campy premise of the show. It's compelling. :mrgreen:
Yeah I was disappointed in our Green Berets in the Green Berets vs Spetznaz episode. The Spetznaz, looked like they could go back to work any second, our guys, looked like they just got off the bar stool at the local BW3's.
Eh. Matt Anderson looked like a slob, but Sgt. George Gomez looked good to go. It's just too bad that Anderson got a ton more face time than Gomez did.
Then again, looks aren't everything; ask any ex-military folks out there. I remember a former Navy SEAL who was pretty much a skinny midget. I sure as hell didn't identify him as Special Forces on first glance, but this guy had served behind the lines in Desert Shield/Storm with two confirmed kills and God-knows-how-many recon hours, and he had the docs, photos and decorations to prove it...some of it, at least; the rest was classified and out of his hands. As long as the ex-Spec Ops guy hasn't been reduced to a complete doughboy with emphysema, I wouldn't want to fight him. Not even if Donald Trump offered to pay the hospital bills. -_-;
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I love the campy premise of the show. It's compelling. :mrgreen:
Yeah I was disappointed in our Green Berets in the Green Berets vs Spetznaz episode. The Spetznaz, looked like they could go back to work any second, our guys, looked like they just got off the bar stool at the local BW3's.
Eh. Matt Anderson looked like a slob, but Sgt. George Gomez looked good to go. It's just too bad that Anderson got a ton more face time than Gomez did.
Then again, looks aren't everything; ask any ex-military folks out there. I remember a former Navy SEAL who was pretty much a skinny midget. I sure as hell didn't identify him as Special Forces on first glance, but this guy had served behind the lines in Desert Shield/Storm with two confirmed kills and God-knows-how-many recon hours, and he had the docs, photos and decorations to prove it...some of it, at least; the rest was classified and out of his hands. As long as the ex-Spec Ops guy hasn't been reduced to a complete doughboy with emphysema, I wouldn't want to fight him. Not even if Donald Trump offered to pay the hospital bills. -_-;
Yeah I think they would have been better off if they focused a bit more. The Spetnaz were focused. Our guys weren't really. Plus like I said that's not really the appropriate match up there and even the other Green Beret expert (Also the Spartan Expert), and the main Spetznaz guy pointed out.
I own both of those handguns as well (Though my Makarov is an east german production model), and though I like the Magazine load of the Beretta, the Makarov, is by far the better Weapon. Hell there's a reason why MI6 took the Beretta away from James Bond. :D
~Rex
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I read somewhere about an 80 year old man who's house was being broken into. He grabbed a handgun and moved to the frontdoor where the burglar was smashing through. The older man gave a warning to leave one time, and the burglar laughed it off. One shot was fired and it was straight into the burglar's head.
The old man served with the Special Forces in Vietnam. Heart gets you through all of that training, and once you've had training on that level.. its in you. Skinny, Fat, Old, Young... Its that old size of the fight in the dog saying, except this dog was trained by the best.
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I read somewhere about an 80 year old man who's house was being broken into. He grabbed a handgun and moved to the frontdoor where the burglar was smashing through. The older man gave a warning to leave one time, and the burglar laughed it off. One shot was fired and it was straight into the burglar's head.
The old man served with the Special Forces in Vietnam. Heart gets you through all of that training, and once you've had training on that level.. its in you. Skinny, Fat, Old, Young... Its that old size of the fight in the dog saying, except this dog was trained by the best.
Wonder if it was worth getting killed over. :?
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Break into my house sometime and I'll demonstrate. :D
Got a T-shirt that says that actually, well, the saying in the previous post. It's not the size of the Dog in the Fight, it's the size of the the Fight in the Dog that matters.
I do a lot of Vet work as well so I can attest that training hold like a bear trap when the times right. Like I said, I just don't think Our Guys, focused seriously in that episode.
May be different next season. That happened in the precursor to this show that Animal Planet used to run. Called all those right to. :D
Another thing, I do a Lot of Black Powder for more then a bit of a Hobby, and yes, while it took less training to be competitively and lethally good with the weaponry, it still took Training.
That means a feat, and firearms definitely fit the bill of exotic, otherwise everyone around you now would have them, not just a handful of trained folks.
~Rex
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Guns are rightfully exotic.
Imagine someone handing you some kind of star-wars esque blaster pistol powered by some odd glowing crystals of different colours. Would you have any clue how to operate it effectively without special specific training?
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if it has a trigger and a place it fires from yet
trigger points ahead *if trained aim* and fire
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The problem is that the NWN game system does not allow players to use weapons that they aren't proficient in, rather than just give them a penalty. Other than that, I think that firearms are appropriately categorized as exotic.
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Firearms are exotic weapons in PnP as well. Furthermore, while aiming and shooting a firearm is relatively straightforward, it nevertheless requires training to shoot accurately regarding compensating for recoil. Also, reloading and maintenance of the weapon requires specialized training. The character has to know how to measure the proper amounts of gunpowder and have some knowledge of the lock mechanism and proper cleaning of the firearm to maintain its effectiveness.
Firearms in Ravenloft: The Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat gains a character proficiency with all gunpowder weapons. Otherwise, a -4 penalty is assessed on all attack rolls. Firearms can be made into masterwork weapons or even enchanted like any other ranged weapons.
Most firearms in Ravenloft use wheel-lock firing mechanisms: pulling the trigger releases a spring-wound wheel. This spins against a flint, which sprays sparks into the priming pan, igniting the gunpowder. Wheel-lock weapons won't fire if they become wet. Masterwork firearms tend to use the safer and more sophisticated snap-lock mechanism: pulling the trigger snaps a flint-headed hammer against a metal plate, sending sparks into a covered priming pan. Snap-lock weapons are generally weatherproof, though complete drenching still fouls the powder.
Reloading a pistol or musket requires either the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat or at least 1 rank in the Craft (gunsmithing) skill, and is a standard action that requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity.
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I'd say yes, in regular DnD. But you've got all sorts of technology in Ravenloft that's not available in "normal" DnD. Heck, I never played Spelljammer. Anyone know what the blasters and various weapons were there?
Spelljammer didn't have high-tech weapons. It was regular D&D "in space." The only guns they had were black powder weapons like in Ravenloft (wheellocks, flintlocks, etc.).
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Ok.. I actully shoot Black powder compitetion with american civil war weapons. and round ball was used as well in the early part of the war. So...
for one.. patch round ball of various calibers.. of the time say 1835 down. Had NO sights at all. at least 90% of them. save maybe a front bead. normally... a man could get off 3 maybe 4 shots. before the barrel became so fouled that the ball wouldnt fit down the barrel any more. and to boot often soilders NEVER used wading (patches) to help take up the extra space in the barrel for the first two shots. also normally a smooth bore weapon wasnt good for much more than 50 yards. Thats with a patch.. without you might hit the guy standing next to the guy you shot at.
There where your Pensylvania rifles (kentuy long rifles) in the around 1760 ish that had rifling.. much more accurate. but fragile compared to the more beefy brown bess type standard issue military rifles.
However.. going back to say the wheel locks.... VERY VERY ewxpensive to make back in the 1400-1500 and had a very good repuation for ignition. and safty, but they broke... they broke. for good. Match locks. where at best 20 to 30 yard weapons. poor acuracy. and was turned into a pike after the first shot.
Keep them a exotic weapon.
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Ok.. I actully shoot Black powder compitetion with american civil war weapons. and round ball was used as well in the early part of the war. So...
for one.. patch round ball of various calibers.. of the time say 1835 down. Had NO sights at all. at least 90% of them. save maybe a front bead. normally... a man could get off 3 maybe 4 shots. before the barrel became so fouled that the ball wouldnt fit down the barrel any more. and to boot often soilders NEVER used wading (patches) to help take up the extra space in the barrel for the first two shots. also normally a smooth bore weapon wasnt good for much more than 50 yards. Thats with a patch.. without you might hit the guy standing next to the guy you shot at.
There where your Pensylvania rifles (kentuy long rifles) in the around 1760 ish that had rifling.. much more accurate. but fragile compared to the more beefy brown bess type standard issue military rifles.
However.. going back to say the wheel locks.... VERY VERY ewxpensive to make back in the 1400-1500 and had a very good repuation for ignition. and safty, but they broke... they broke. for good. Match locks. where at best 20 to 30 yard weapons. poor acuracy. and was turned into a pike after the first shot.
Keep them a exotic weapon.
I second my fellow Black Powder competitor. I don't think the Powers that Be would move them from Exotic anyway, since that's where they belong due to "weapon type".
~Rex
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also if you LOOK at the weapons proficiency in the rule book there listed as exotic :)
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also if you LOOK at the weapons proficiency in the rule book there listed as exotic :)
Don't say Rulebook to loud you'll wake up the Click and Go Dragon. That is one of the earlier points we tried to make as well. Not sure why folks think Gun Skills are so easy. Just watch a gun fight between two untrained individuals. :D
~Rex
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click and go dragon?
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i realized one silly thing that...guns are pretty weak, they make no damage at all, since i can make more damage with my longbow.
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i realized one silly thing that...guns are pretty weak, they make no damage at all, since i can make more damage with my longbow.
I've killed a Moose, and a Grizzly, with one Arrow. I've never been able to do that, with one shot (You always need a follow up upon retrieval), from the .460wm MkV DGR, and that's firing one of the most powerful cartridges in the world, if not arguably, the most powerful.
Arrows kill things dead. Guns allow people to kill things dead with something smaller and more quickly trainable then Archery. CROSSBOWS, are so freaking lethal, most states will not allow you to hunt anythng other then Varmit with them.
What made Guns so nasty in the Spelljammer days, and in the days of some of the newer settings like Pathfinder and what not, is the Exploding Crit. Keep rolling if you keep nailing that 20. Combine that with the PnP fort save, Guns pretty nasty again.
~Rex
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Yeah, but to think how the guns slowish reloading doesnt make them very good in combat- gosh whatever, i wont use a gun anway, carry on!
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They are powder guns, Rixula. Not semi automatic berettas and they are nor a magical weapon. :)
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They do respectable damage, Marle did shoot Maria for 77 damage one time. Granted, there were factors involved, like a crit, but the potential for high damage and knockdowns makes them worthwhile for characters whose concept their use fits.
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One feasible tactic, is getting a groups of gunslingers together, having everyone buy about 5 guns, load them all before starting the fight, then firing them in sequence. You just have to equip the new gun, then it's another shot.
Using only 1 gun is too slow, yes. Use 4 or 5, loading them ALL before a fight, so you have a chance to at least do some damage.
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In real life, wasn't the use of multlple pre-loaded guns sometimes used? I'm not a hundred percent sure it actually historical, but I think I've seen it in a movie once.... :oops:
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In real life, wasn't the use of multlple pre-loaded guns sometimes used? I'm not a hundred percent sure it actually historical, but I think I've seen it in a movie once.... :oops:
It was a very common, Pirate tactic actually to be packing as many as what you could carry. Deadliest Warrior, Pirate vs Knight, gave a good look at that actually. Would be interesting to if the guns could be set up, so that you can have the bayonet/boarding axe musket set ups as well. For when you have to be up close and all choppy stabby like.
~Rex
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This makes me want to start playing Pirates vs Vikings vs Knights. I wonder if they ever finished making all the classes for that mod?
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Yeah, the flintlock right now is like a sling, it could be changed that it is a dagger item and there could be some small blade stuck on it so the close combat is possible.
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You did not have a bayonet on pistols?
Well not as common as a rifle and bayonet atleast to have something "melee" on a pistol. I believe I heard of axe on a pistol but well, bayonet and rifle
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you use its handle as a mace, For pistoles
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you use its handle as a mace, For pistoles
And destroy it? ;)
Look at all movies and games, the commanders using pistol always have a rapier! :lol:
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Err, i think i've seen a flintlock dagger-gun somewhere.. but they were far from common.
And yes, carrying a brace of pistols was pretty much the only way to go.
And i'm also fairly sure the flintlocks are based on the whip model, hence why you can only have it in the on-hand.